Out of Order with Mark Lobel

This is a story about an Israeli and a Palestinian who refuse to give up. Instead, they teach us that “Peace is an action”. Rejecting revenge and rage, Aziz offers an image that stays with us: anger is like nuclear power. It can destroy, or it can light a path. This is a conversation about what it takes to choose the latter, and what the rest of us might do next.

Maoz Inon's parents were killed in the Hamas attacks of 7 October 2023. Aziz Abu Sarah's brother was killed by injuries from torture he suffered in Israeli custody. They have every reason to know what this conflict costs. Together, they insist that its future can still be peace.

In this episode of Out of Order, Mark Lobel, a British Jew and journalist, speaks with the Israeli and Palestinian co-authors of The Future Is Peace, alongside his childhood friend Rida Saïd, a British Muslim, entrepreneur and advisor in the Middle East, dedicated to peace and dialogue in the region.

Their conversation moves from grief and anger to the hard work of building a movement: protecting Palestinian farmers during the olive harvest, teaching young women in the West Bank, creating a place where Israelis and Palestinians can encounter each other’s stories, and pressing people with power to act. 

The peace activists also share their thoughts on: Ed Sheeran, Macklemore, Ed Miliband, the UK government’s sanctions against West Bank settlements, the upcoming Israeli and Palestinian elections and Aziz’s assertion that just three and a half percent of a society can change the social and political structure of a country.

Mark and Rida ask the questions that test that vision. Why spend so much time appealing to audiences abroad? What should happen when language meant to demand freedom makes someone else afraid? And, if the politicians will not lead, who will?

Guests: Maoz Inon, Aziz Abu Sarah, Rida Saïd 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Show Note Links:

Contact Maoz and Aziz’s non-profit organisation here: https://www.iinteract.org/

Buy Maoz and Aziz’s book here: The Future Is Peace, a New York Times bestseller https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Peace-Aziz-Abu-Sarah/dp/1837264074/ref=asc_df_1837264074?mcid=cac2792703583071a5d48985f377d155&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=781185311404&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=700057887293780533&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045954&hvtargid=pla-2449018475226&psc=1&hvocijid=700057887293780533-1837264074-&hvexpln=0&gad_source=1

Read ‘A Law Catching Up with a Truth We Have Always Known’ by Rida Said: https://www.arabnews.com/opinion/a-law-finally-catching-up-with-a-truth-we-have-always-known-3001235 

Watch Maoz and Aziz’s TED Talk, April 2024: https://www.ted.com/talks/aziz_abu_sarah_and_maoz_inon_a_palestinian_and_an_israeli_face_to_face 

Subscribe to Out of Order on Substack here: https://substack.com/@marklobeltv 

Follow Out of Order on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/outofordermarklobel/?hl=en-gb 

Follow Out of Order on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/@OutofOrderwithMarkLobel 

Get in touch with Mark here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 

Maoz and Aziz addressing the United Nations, 28th September 2026: https://webtv.un.org/en/asset/k1i/k1idc71j2y

In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels. 

Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are, and where they see hope when so much feels out of order.

This month, Mark is joined by one of Britain's best known Spy Novelists, Charles Cumming. The duo discuss his upbringing - and how boarding school from a young age shaped his writing. Plus, how two divorces, that of his parents and later himself, shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out people like Putin, Trump and the conflict in the Middle East.

Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope when so much feels out of order.