Joe Power: a member of NAMBLA’s steering committee for twenty years. I get to speak for the organisation. I am a jack of all trades there. Jeffrey Gold introduced in episode 5 from Sure Quality Internet Radio (SQIR). Jack (SQIR DJ) introduced in episode 14. (00:48 to 02:50)

Rookiee: hard to contact a NAMBLA person. Is that due to closing ranks? Joe: early on, more people involved when NAMBLA was New York based. With time, we failed to maintain an activist core. The laws have changed too. We protested outside a prison once, but these days not possible. We also face a lawsuit. Now we inform about world events as part of the boy love ethos. (02:51 to 05:54)

Joe: around 1978, NAMBLA activists were enamoured of older teens, but did not create boundaries. Rather they assessed the philosophy of sexuality. The social landscape has since become very repressive. Gay organisations too rejected the gay youth concept to increase chances of obtaining funds. That stance now haunts them, given the burgeoning generation of gay youth. Now difficult to promote their old mantra: ‘no, no, no, you are asexual and have to wait till 18’. (05:55 to 09:21)

Rookiee: Aqua, in a previous episode, laments nothing for gay youth locally in the way of support and socials. Even pride events are 21 plus, with zero gay youth present. Difficult to belong when your AoA is 8 plus. Jeffrey: stop being apologists and start promoting paedophile pride. If not we will continue to be divided. Joe: unfortunately, the word was adopted by our enemies to hate us. Boy Story: all boy lovers are paedophiles, but not all paedophiles are boy lovers. Ask what a paedophile is out here, and they will say: someone who is attracted to kids. Rookie: but then, how do we define ‘kid’? In most places it is up to 18. We need a basis for a conversation. Jeffrey: we also need a basis for a movement instead of arguing over semantics, and to move the hell on. In so many forums people attack NAMBLA, and that is not right. (09:22 to 19:46)

Rookiee: is the goal of NAMBLA to get in bed with children? Joe: No. Our goal is to formulate a rational approach to sexuality, and to make laws conform to man boy sexuality. We need a strong philosophical underpinning for our opinions and desires. So long as society equates paedophilia with lust, we will be open to attack. Jeffrey: education is key. We have to teach children and society what paedophiles are, both good and bad. Rookiee: how do we educate? Jeffrey: communicate responsible paedophilia by dropping leaflets discretely in public places. Nobody has done that so far. (19:47 to 27:54)

Rookiee: NAMBLA’s use of the internet is lacking. The website has hardly changed. Why? Joe: a lack of will, activism, and resources limits us to the philosophical realm at the expense of online support. NAMBLA, like the gay Mattachine Society formed in 1950, may well evaporate in time. Jeffrey: the addition of a blog on the site might increase interest. Jack: do you have lobbyists in DC? Joe: no. Jack: are there any senators on board? Joe: there a few pro civil liberties, but all I see is two parties trying to see who can pass the toughest laws. Jack: so NAMBLA is losing ground over time? Joe: yes. (27:55 to 40:58)

Rookiee: NAMBLA busts, raids, meetings where LEA or FEDs present, NAMBLA members falling for sting in Mexico with boy prostitutes. What’s going on? Joe: boy lovers meeting prior to the internet was such a cathartic experience, guards slipped and members became vulnerable. We did create legal funds to be used when a rare positive outcome in court might benefit the most people. We have a prisoner support project promoting pen-pal initiatives. (40:59 to 45:45)

Rookiee: once sex offender inmates leave prison, they are not allowed to locate other released offenders via SORs. Released prisoners need support too, because very little exists on the outside. Joe: I would defend NAMBLA by saying who else supports prisoners? (45:46 to 50:17)

Jack: does NAMBLA have meetings? Joe: activists do, yes. Jeffrey: how many members exist? Joe: a few hundred, with about a dozen activists. We have wondered whether we should up sticks and away, having given it our best shot. We are too tired to go on, and too scared to quit. (50:18 to 52:41)

Joe: invite you to look at any of the bulletins produced over the last five years. Rookiee: I think I have only seen one from the 1980s. Why not produce a free issue and place it on your website as a pdf? Joe: we are trialling this idea currently. Jeffrey: I am holding the latest bulletin right now; it is wonderful. Rookie: a mailed bulletin is not secure; it has your address on it, and can be picked up and opened. Jeffrey: people ask why I put my voice and my photo out daily on SQIR. I tell them I have nothing to hide. A lot of the fear and paranoia in the boy love community is misplaced. (52:42 to 57:07)

Joe: speaking as someone who is currently being sued for several million dollars, some of the paranoia is justified. Jeffrey: what is the charge? Joe: civil case relating to the Curley murder in Massachusetts. The claim: NAMBLA incited the murderer to commit the crime because a bulletin was found in the murderer’s car. The American Civil Liberties Union represented NAMBLA due to the issue of censorship of unpopular speech about sexuality. It succeeded on getting the suit dismissed. The family continued their suit against individual members insisting NAMBLA hand over membership lists. We have declined to do this. (57:08 to 01:02:20)

Joe: many problems arose from newbie members socialising post-meeting. They shot their mouths off to disguised LEA. Rookiee: whilst running the Pedologues project, I live the life of a monk. Joe: the long-standing members are still around because they live like monks. That’s fine now, but after ten years being a monk? Impossible to enforce policy once they go their own way. Jeffrey: on SQIR, listeners hear the music, but between songs or DJ chat, a serious message is broadcast, causing the listener to pause and think. Rookiee: NAMBLA should lay down rules and emphasise disclaimers. (01:02:21 to 01:17:41)

Jack: given the news articles stating members being caught, for example the Mexico sting, how do folk know they are NAMBLA members? Do you divulge the list to the authorities? Joe: no. In that specific case, the LEA officers were at the NAMBLA meeting originally. (01:17:42 to 01:19:24)

Rookiee: I don’t support people visiting boy prostitutes, not that I have a moral objection to consensual sex with 12yo boys. Joe: on the other hand, if he has no customers, he starves. Jeffrey: no-one here is seriously advocating child prostitution; unfortunately, courts do not consider that distinction. Cases where two people within a legal age span have been prosecuted for filming their sexploits. Rookiee: one case where a 13yo was prosecuted for taking pictures of himself. Joe: laws are always slower than society to change, plus they are a very poor fit for human sexuality. We need to protest the laws, and recommend a better fit. (01:19:25 to 01:23:17)

Rookiee: ‘paedophiles are unable to control their desires and will act upon them, regardless of the child needs.’ The public perception: ‘paedophiles are dangerous’. We need to convince others this is not the case. Jeffrey: same as in Kinsey’s day; anyone doing on-topic research is censured, or ignored by legislators. Boy Story: when arrested for having an online conversation in 1997, police came, searched my house and found NAMBLA paperwork. They questioned me for many hours about my evident association. NAMBLA needs to change its image. Rookiee: the NAMBLA website needs to be more productive. Joe: we recognise the importance of the internet, but the website guys and the bulletin production are separate with limited overlap. (01:23:18 to 01:33:29)

Jeffrey: SQR will likely become a subscribing member. Jack: you really want to associate with NAMBLA? Jeffrey: we are in partnership with NAMBLA’s Peter Herman and Roy Radow. We have a one minute ad that airs on SQR regularly with other projects in the works. Rookiee: risk of backlash? Jeffrey: too bad. They are a fine organisation; we support them 100%. It is time we got angry, but be quick, as freedom to even speak is becoming curtailed. Right now we can speak, albeit whilst giving ourselves up as martyrs to the cause. Those that would just sit on their heels, I have nothing but contempt for. It is high time we educated rather than hide our heads in the sand. (01:33:30 to 01:45:15)

Rookiee: the younger generation of boy lovers sees NAMBLA as old-fashioned; they have misconceptions of it. Joe: a diverse boy love resource world is positive, as it enables choice. Jeffrey: but we are trying to alter the public’s perception of our community. Unfortunately, the only credible resource to the public is NAMBLA, so support them. Boy Story: one thing NAMBLA could do for the boy love community is to add links to other resources on its web page. Joe: because of past denial of service attacks; others resources came under attack too. (01:45:16 to 01:50:50)

Jeffrey: when I was a 14yo in 1981, NAMBLA was the first boy love resource I found. I had no idea how to contact them back then. It was a tremendous joy to my heart when I heard there was an organisation out there. I say to everyone who is listening, please, let us support our grandfather in his old age. (01:50:51 to 01:51:43)