Episode #22.5 of Pedologues.
Pedologues is a podcast focused on issues surrounding inter-generational relationships, pedophilia, child sexuality, culture, society's views on these issues, law, and everyday life.
Pedologues Episode 22.5 (24 June 2006) Rookiee, Marthijn Uittenbogaard, Norbert de Jonge, Ad van den Berg, Peter Herman, Jeffrey Gold, and Jessie summary:
Peter Herman: I am a NAMBLA steering committee member. Previously I taught New York High School students. I was outed whilst teaching, and spent ten years defending myself. The teachers Union was pusillanimous. I hired a lawyer but lost. I was dismissed in 1993 because I belonged to NAMBLA. I am positive as I am sure attitudes will change toward the boy love community. (00:01 to 12:58)
Howie, a listener from SQIR says I am Jewish. I do not support the Jewish women causing problems for PNVD. They exemplify the Christian, Judeo, western puritan heritage that believes children should be innocent, and being sexual is anti-innocence. Rookiee: people try to preserve innocence but always end up failing. Isn’t it ironic that pederasts were once considered to be the best teachers? Now they are considered not to be. Peter: I agree. (12:59 to 17:39)
Marthijn: adults are in denial over children and their sexuality. When we formed PNVD, an article declared children have no sexual feelings. If they do, molesters have surely abused them. A survey of 10,000 Dutch youngsters between 12 and 18, revealed 25% of them said to have had cyber sex over a six-month period. One-third of boys and one in ten girls stripped naked on these occasions. Further research called ‘sex under 25’, found 7% between 11 and 14, have had penetrative sexual intercourse. Children are evidently sexual beings, but adults don’t want to hear it. (17:40 to 20:11)
Rookiee: I have heard ‘it is OK for children to be sexual, but only among themselves. Don’t let anyone older be involved because they will only take advantage.’ Surely, an older person as mentor would be beneficial. Marthijn: they say their war is on predators. In reality, the war is on child sexuality and emancipation. Norbert: a constant argument is the power differential. But one could say it is the adult exerting power by preventing children from being sexual. (20:12 to 26:12)
Jeffrey: laws are becoming increasingly harsh towards paedophiles. This situation is unlikely to change soon in the US or in the UK. Maybe a slim chance though in Holland via the PNVD law suits. Norbert: one law suit has been filed by the security company NVD. Unfortunately we lost it. A second is underway to prevent PNVD from existing. Even if we registered our party formerly, we would be forbidden from exercising our right to speak on behalf of that party. This case will attract a lot of media attention. A third is one initiated against my university. They want to prevent me from associating with children as part of my pedagogy course, even though they agreed originally because another student would be with me. They have caved in to media pressure. Now I have been barred from studying, and told their security will ensure I don’t set foot on campus. They say this is an ethical decision, but no, it is purely commercial. This case is critical not just for me, but for others discriminated against on the basis of their sexuality. (26:13 to 32:57)
Jeffrey: Sure Quality Radio (SQR) had a paypal account to process donations. We have an Amazon partner store. Because a link of ours pointed to the movie L.I.E., paypal dropped our account and refused to do business with us anymore. L.I.E. was a major motion picture. Paypal is telling us indirectly, because you are paedophiles, we don’t want your business. We are reviewing options but lawyer affordability is the problem. If we could open the litigation door in say The Netherlands, it might work. Rookiee: the media would sure be quick to sniff out and highlight the story. (32:58 to 36:04)
Marthijn: absolutely. The PNVD party project is a form of activism. Our manifesto does not mention the word paedophile, but we do promote children making their own decisions. Setting up a political party and fighting law suits requires money. Another law suit is the case against Krumme 13, a German paedophile organisation founded by Dieter Gieseking. A link to the book ‘Loving Boys’, by Edward Brongersma appeared on the Krumme 13 website. The objection was not copyright, but that youths visiting the site may be sent in the wrong direction morally. Dieter is being sued but cannot finance legal costs. (36:05 to 38:12)
Jeffrey: the civil rights movement faced similar financing difficulties. They created banks to pool funds for legal costs. These collectives comprised strangers, so trust was vital to create cash flow. Norbert: for several weeks we have had a banner on several websites, saying ‘support activism’. The banner links to a web page explaining an alliance of websites that support changes to our society, plus an option to donate. Despite this, no donations have been received. If things are to change, funds will be needed. (38:13 to 41:06)
Comments from listeners I.
Rookiee: listener suggests people who go public and then face law suits, should fund their own costs. Norbert: such views are from people who feel things cannot be changed. Rookiee: unless you are rich, one person cannot change things. Norbert: legal action against my university is costing me a lot of money. A success would mean it would all be worth it. Rookiee: listener says ‘his study is hanging together with his sexual behaviour; doesn’t he get this?’ Norbert: it may be hanging together with my sexual feelings, but even that is far-fetched. Rookiee: they are saying normal people can control themselves, but you can’t. Norbert: people are risk-averse; their thinking has to change. PNVD recommends authority figures avoid intimate relationships. (41:07 to 50:29)
Inaudible. (50:30 to 53:02)
Norbert: PNVD is a regular political party, not a paedophile party. We need free-thinking open-minded people to support us. Marthijn: we do not want any taboos. Rookiee: what about sex with a dead person? Marthijn: so long as permission is obtained whilst the deceased was still alive. (53:03 to 55:31)
Jeffrey: is there an English translation of your manifesto? There will be many non-Dutch people who want to read it. Norbert: hopefully by next year, but we need more translators to help us with this. pnvd.nl is the website address. (56:48 to 59:08)
Competence and cognition.
Rookiee: caller says adults and children have similar competence and cognitive ability. They also share equivalent behavioural traits. Equal rights and protections regardless of age, should be law. The caller is an advocate of puerism. Do you agree with that? Ad: agree. (59:09 to 01:00:34)
Rookiee: are you in hiding now? Ad: my home was a trailer at a campsite. Young people around 20 years old ruined the trailer, and stole my home contents. I received death threats, so I had to move to a different part of the country. Jeffrey: yet we are the villains. (01:00:35 to 01:03:42)
Rookiee: listener says those who control are resisting losing that control. Norbert: PNVD poses a threat because they fight for equivalence between adults and children. Society is afraid of us being on the same emotional level as a child, because it compromises their hold on power over children. Norbert: there is a difference between treating a child as an object and treating a child as a being. Jeffrey: caller says we do not perceive children as pieces of meat. Such thinking has nothing to do with sexual orientation. (01:03:43 to 01:06:54)
Rookiee: Stacey Harp of Active Christian Media suggests we trade child pornography among each other like baseball cards. It is true child pornography is exchanged within the boy lover community. What does PNVD say regarding the rights of a child and photographing or filming them, and image distribution? Norbert: a child can be photographed or filmed in any act when it is not sexual; no permission is required or obtained. No-one cares what a child may feel about that. Rookiee: in Hollywood, parents readily pimp out their child to the film industry. Norbert: on the topic of ‘child pornography’, society’s phobic view of sex is the problem. (01:06:55 to 01:09:17)
Recap on ‘No taboos’. (01:09:18 to 01:10:11)
Jessie: topic on bl.net was discussed. One guy talked about legalising it. I said if it was legal and controlled lots of kids who would line up for it. Rookiee: society says it is not healthy for them. Jessie: if they enjoy it, they should be allowed to do it. The availability of material would provide a safety valve for paedophiles that have no outlet for their sexuality. (01:10:12 to 01:12:16)
Jeffrey: we should help PNVD out. A victory anywhere is a victory for all of us. Norbert: recaps the donation mechanism. We need financial support to fight those who are preventing us from speaking up. Rookiee: how much money do you require to retain lawyers? Norbert: Several thousand Euros per lawyer, plus a similar amount for a new server. Rookiee: funds will be needed once the law suits are out of the way. Norbert: true. Jeffrey: how much have you already spent? Norbert: about five thousand Euros. Rookiee: just to clarify, individuals internationally can donate money, correct? Norbert: yes, they can. (01:12:17 to 01:19:15)
Rookiee: we reached a peak of 150 listeners today. PNVD members expressed thanks to their hosts, and vice versa. (01:19:16 to 01:23:54)
