Rookiee: we last talked in episode 22 on June 26. What has happened since? Marthijn: we have had a lot of media attention. Some political parties are trying to eradicate us. They want our party to be made illegal. This has prompted a court case, but we are still a legal party. (00:58 to 02:51)

Norbert: we appeared on tv and have done interviews. Focus was not on issues in our manifesto, rather on the topics of paedophilia and child sexuality, and our private lives. They parade us as freaks for entertainment. This just reinforces public prejudice. Rookiee: they are keen to maximise shock value. Norbert: some of the feedback expressed surprise we actually exist. Marthijn: we hope to be given air time to discuss our political program in a less hysterical, more mature way. (02:52 to 07:52)

Norbert: the first case involved a group of people determined to make us illegal. The judge ruled we had a basic right to exist. Our first win enabled us to continue. The second case related to my university refusing me access onto campus. A hearing was conducted at the university, and I lost. We intend to fight this decision at a higher level. Rookiee: what were the grounds for the decision? Norbert: the law says you have to state you disagree with the university decision. They then establish a commission to reconsider their original decision. We did this, but it had no effect. (07:53 to 10:39)

Marthijn: we attended a press conference at The Hague right next to the prime minister’s office. He gave his weekly press conference. I said “Can I ask you a question?” He responded: “No, I don’t have time.” He didn’t like us being in The Hague right next to his office. We emailed every Dutch political party asking them to condemn the hate mail we received. We received no responses. (10:39 to 12:20)

Norbert: a Dutch documentary maker is following us, so some events are on film. One such is us on Utrecht streets asking people to sign and support our right to be election candidates. We need around 570 signatures to make this happen. Far right parties claim that this will be a list of paedophiles, so people are afraid to sign. We have around 100 signatures, but need more. Marthijn: the media is failing to condemn right wing groups, so they are failing to uphold democracy. Norbert: such groups say freedom of speech is irrelevant because these are paedophiles. Rookiee: if any unwanted anomaly appears, it gets ostracised, silenced and made to go away. (12:21 to 18:39)

Marthijn: twenty years ago in Holland, similar opinions were aired politically. Rookiee: now public perceptions are different. Norbert: we have to remind people of political history. We published a several-hundred page document, discussing paedosexuality, child sexuality, and the pro-paedophilia laws established in the past. This document is simply being ignored. (18:40 to 20:24)

Rookiee: what has changed since then? Marthijn: newspapers seek to maximise circulation. If they publish a story readers may not like, potential revenue is lost. Decline in media objectivity began in the 1990s. Politically correct main-stream media and government are joined at the hip. The smaller media are more receptive, and have published interesting articles. Rookiee: it sounds similar to the podcasting world. Corporate media prevents alternative views from being heard. Marthijn: if a mainstream editor authors an alternative view, he lasts no more than a few seconds. (20:25 to 27:42)

Norbert: we are trying to open a bank account. None want us as customers. We have been forced to contact ten banks, asking the same question. The same thing goes with internet providers. They claim it is to do with public perception, which is code for you will destroy our image. (27:43 to 28:39)

Rookiee: if anyone wants to find out about your work, where are you? Marthijn: our website is pnvd.nl, but it is all in Dutch. About one-quarter has been translated; people are working on it. Rookiee: what interviews have you done? Norbert: visit our website and select ‘weblock’; that will take you to ‘films’. The interviews are mainly in English as many non-Dutch countries have sought us. Marthijn: the US pays no attention to us. (28:40 to 31:34)

Rookiee: my podcast was initially included on podcast alley, but blackmail threats were sent to the Dutch entrepreneur, Adam Curry, because of this. They wanted Pedologues references to be removed. A Nazi white supremacist podcast was also a target. Threats warned he would be reported to outlets such as CNN for broadcasting hate speech. Adam then published a neutral statement on his own podcast saying he reserved the right to exclude any podcast for any reason. He emphasised his liberal Dutch upbringing and the value of free speech. It is ironic that paedophiles would have been systematically sent to concentration camps along with Jews. Norbert: we were similarly accused of being a threat to democracy. It is projection. Marthijn: there was a famous guy in The Netherlands willing to create Star of David insignia patches for our court appearance. Instead we decided upon smiley patches with the words ‘Friends of Children’. Rookiee: that was unlikely to have had the same effect though. Marthijn: the public are really surprised when we mention the Jews in connection with our experiences. They say we are shameless for doing so. They really have no clue what is going on. (31:35 to 38:39)

Marthijn: I hope the Jews and homosexuals out there can make the comparison. Rookiee: are homosexuals sympathetic or do they side with the general public? Marthijn: they are more tolerant for sure, but they fear this will bring them into disrepute once more, so they remain in the shadows. In the media, gays are dead set against us. Norbert: there is a very good article called ‘defence of paedosex equates to gay cause’. It is on the Martijn website. It explains why gays should support us. (38:40 to 40:12)

Rookiee: is the reason why people call you a paedophile party because you are involved in the Martijn association? Marthijn: both Norbert and I wrote the party manifesto, but we wanted two other non-paedophiles to join us. We located candidates, but they were too afraid to accept our offer. Rookiee: what are your next steps as far as public communication? Marthijn: we are available to discuss our manifesto content. Norbert: what we have done so far has been beneficial. One of our goals has been met, namely to initiate debate on topics that have been neglected for way too long. The lack of signatures mentioned earlier is a big problem. We need a minimum of 570 by 10 October to participate in the elections in late November. Without these, we try again four years later. Perhaps people should sign purely to uphold democracy given politicians are trying to destroy us. (40:13 to 47:04)

Rookiee: how do you address the negative perception? It may get worse. Norbert: it cannot get any worse. You have to give it a try, show your face and demonstrate you are a human being. If you do nothing, the concentration camps will be built for all of us. Prisons are already concentration camps with suicides and murders. Rookiee: historically other minority groups have suffered. Norbert: that is why we have to speak up. By calling paedophiles monsters, they are winning. Once they win, another minority group will fall victim. If we stop asking for more, they will take everything. Other minority groups should be supporting our right to speak up. Rookiee: I wish you the best and hope things improve for you. If you are seen as a paedophile party, is that such a bad thing? Marthijn: no-one will vote for a single-issue party. (47:05 to 52:56)

Marthijn: Rookiee, why don’t you use your real name here? Do you support people emerging from the closet? Rookiee: I am afraid to. Marthijn: when one person comes out, then you get a lot of hate mail. When hundreds do it, there is less to be afraid of. Rookiee: I am not ashamed of admitting I am afraid, and of having insufficient funds for a safety net. Child lovers in the US are not robust enough to stand on their own two feet. Our community is in disarray. The majority can barely acknowledge their own sexuality. Norbert: I disagree. The majority know exactly who and what they are. Rookiee: the majority do not consider belonging to a community, or having a voice. Marthijn: people must form a group to change their situation. Rookiee: anonymity allows people to conceal who they are. The only way they can come out is online. Norbert: no, this is the only one they choose to come out. Marthijn: a lot of child lovers are in hiding. They are afraid when we are so open, to the point that they are against us. (52:57 to 01:01:04)

Norbert: well we are out there doing interviews, but who else does the same in their own language? Nobody. Rookiee: the lack of face to face communication is a problem, also dissident opinions. Norbert: we do want changes in our society to allow sexual expression by children, including loving physical intimacy with older persons if and when they choose to. Everyone in our community should agree with that. Rookiee: some do, some don’t. Some people say we have sufficient and don’t need more rights. Marthijn: they are lying to themselves. Rookiee: IMO, there is no BL community. Norbert: there is! People who look at pictures don’t speak up because they know the police will pursue them. They are happy and egoistic. Rookiee: they are living in a fantasy world. How far will we allow ourselves to be pushed around before the elastic snaps? (01:01:05 to 01:05:54)