Jeffrey: PNVD on the line, the Dutch party for neighbourly love, freedom and diversity. Marthijn: Norbert and I decided to create PNVD. It is not a paedophile party as the media claim. PNVD is broader. We are paedophiles who want to lower the age of consent. Paedophilia and child sexuality are huge taboos. In the 1970s several parties supported an age of consent of 12; some thought to abolish consent laws totally. Today, people think you are insane to hold such views. People forget until 2002, the consent age was 12 with agreement of child and parents. Rookiee: recalls the trope: ‘a child can’t consent; they lack full autonomy’. (06:10 to 09:32)

Rookiee: Ad is the PNVD treasurer. Ad: fifteen years ago I was president of Martjin, an organisation formed in 1982 when it split off from the parent organisation. (09:33 to 11:21)

Jeffrey: what is Dutch opinion of paedophilia and the law? Norbert: some feel current laws are not where they should be. Others are ill-informed. Media and politicians prevent them knowing the full story. PNVD was formed due to censorship. We try to remove taboos, dogmas, fears and intolerance through activism. A further issue is immigration and integration of foreigners. Voicing such topics is discouraged by politicians, so solutions never get proposed. (11:22 to 13:52)

Martijn: the DSM is an international psychiatric bible. Holland defers to it. Jeffrey: physchiatry makes a lot of money from treating our so-called disorder. Homosexuality stayed on DSM for ages too. Rookiee: the same grift lies behind the ‘war on drugs’ in the US. (13:53 to 16:49)

Norbert: drug use is a further PNVD issue. We intend to legalise drug use and make marijuana available from 12 years old. By allowing kids to make their own decisions, consumption should decline. The war on drugs in the West has failed. In a tolerant Holland, there is less consumption. (16:50 to 18:30)

Marthijn: PNVD uses the slogan ‘dare to think for your-self’. We want to increase people’s independence. Right now, responsibility is vested in the state, not in the individual. This leads to bad outcomes. Jeffrey: interesting observation. Here, teens are taught they are children. At 18, they have no clue how to survive. (18:31 to 20:47)

Marthijn: sexuality cannot be learnt through masturbating to pornography or from books. Children are kept ignorant of sex, respect and love, so lie behind their biological development and introspective. Only in late teens are kids forced to catch up on this critical aspect of learning. Rookiee: several anti-contact proponent views. Historically, sexual activity was only permissible for a straight married couple under Christian tenets. These days, society and parents stigmatise childhood sexual activity. (20:48 to 23:31)

Rookiee: societies had lower ages of consent historically. Norbert: it is all about profit and control. Jeffrey: listener question: Have you never thought about the effect of sex on the child’s future development? Ad: yes, of course. Dutch research concluded no negative effect on kids experiencing consensual sex, but problems arose when experiences were forbidden. Rookiee: OSN from episode 21 said sexual activity is a fundamental biological need. Jeffrey: criminalising sexual activity among children is inhuman. Norbert: we are against abuse. I had no experiences as a boy, but in retrospect I missed out. Having these would prepare me better in adulthood. Sexuality is one aspect of life omitted from childhood, which is very strange. Jeffrey: I missed out too and regret it. Sexuality is not learnt, it is innate. (23:32 to 29:17)

Rookiee: a 1960s parenting video depicts a 5yo child playing with himself. A parent slaps him on the hand and exclaims: bad boy, don’t do that! Jeffrey: when a teen realises attraction to younger boys, he worries about his paedophilic sexuality and society’s reaction to him. That is a horrible situation to be in. (29:18 to 30:54)

Rookiee: listener question, will PNVD promote paedosexuality as a distinct sexual orientation as part of broader education and reform? Norbert: we are against indoctrination. It is for schools to teach. We prefer effective teaching of tolerance, love, respect, sexuality and intimacy. Jeffrey: like the libertarian party. Norbert: we are part libertarian, with humanitarian and socialist ethos too. (30:55 to 35:59)

Rookiee: the word paedophilia has negative connotations. The trope goes: ‘paedophiles only aim to have sex with children’. Norbert: paedophilia includes acts of loving and caring too. Most paedophiles I know don’t even have contact with kids. Given the perception plus the illegality, it is better not to engage in such relationships. If the case goes to court, both the paedophile and the child suffer. (36:00 to 38:06)

Rookiee: is there such a thing a non-sexual paedophile? Norbert: everyone has sexuality. Marthijn: some people are non-sexual. Rookiee: is a paedophile defined by their sexuality or is there more to it? Norbert: boy lovers tell us we focus too much on the sex topic. In real life, there is far more to it. We need the Dutch community to support us on non-paedophile issues too. (38:07 to 40:24)

Jeffrey: how did PNVD come about? Norbert: I started it because I was interested in politics. We discussed the idea for several years. In 2004, we created a website, which is currently being changed and updated. (40:25 to 41:50)

Rookie: if a future society considered paedophilia normal, what if molesters got out of control? Norbert: laws would still be there to dissuade molesters. In oppressive societies, more children are hurt. Which is healthier? Jeffrey: would you lock them up, treat them, or consider it a crime. Marthijn: they should be treated. They need to be taught to love, to respect, to listen, and to value the child above everything else. Rookiee: suppressing human sexual outlets leads to bad outcomes that tip people over the edge. Norbert: labeling paedophiles as monsters, leads to the creation of monsters. (41:51 to 45:54)

Ad: other than what I mentioned earlier, I am 62 and retired from my nursing job in a psychiatric hospital. Norbert: I am 28 and a Unix computer programmer, but more recently teach high school kids. I have recently met a 19 year old girl who is aware of my sexuality and who thinks I am cute, which is nice. Marthijn: the organisation Martjin was not named after me. The first magazine was created two years earlier in 1980, when I was 8. I spend my time as an activist, and have done for eight years. I work part time too. (53:05 to 59:49)

Jeffrey: I am 39 years old. As a teen, I was attracted to boys and thought the phase would pass. I instead was the dirty old man my family warned me about and society hated so much. I became very depressed and got kicked out of my sophomore year. I did various jobs, but also found the internet. I built web pages and established contact with other boy lovers. I returned to school, studied and qualified in mechanical engineering. I started a pride movement. I knew about NAMBLA, but did not know about Martjin. (01:01:46 to 01:09:39)

Rookiee: listener asks, on hard drug legislation and age of consent reduction, is a child more at risk from drugging and molestation? Marthijn: a child would be empowered to decide whom to choose, whom to say yes to, or no to. Rape will still be a crime. Jeffrey: listener says boy lovers suffer from introspection due to worry over their situation. They are blind to the bigger picture. I would also like to know how PNVD members deal with hostile criticism from non-boy lovers. (01:09:40 to 01:13:44)

Marthijn: May 30 a major Dutch newspaper wrote a story. That evening our internet service provider no longer hosted us. May 31 two politicians spoke in parliament. One to deny us the right to participate in elections, the other demanded examining our activities. June 3 we could no longer use our PNVD party name; it was a security company name. June 7 a court case arose. We received threats, even death threats. Jeffrey: we just now received a death threat directed at PNVD members. Norbert: we will never give in to threats. Ad was living in a camp site, and was threatened so much we had to take him to a safe place. June 8 we sent a letter to all parties requesting denouncement of the threats, otherwise they condone them. June 10 an anti-paedophile protest outside The Hague. We will be sued on July 7. During this time we did a lot of media interviews. June 11 an article appeared online entitled: paedophile party, what’s the problem? Four years ago, 12yo kids were able to engage in sexual activity. Eight years ago, it was legal to possess child pornography, and children could be filmed in porn productions. Child porn was in Dutch sex shops through the 1980s. Jeffrey: child porn available until 1978 in the US. Norbert: now, if you are found to possess a picture of a 17 year old with an erection, you will be punished. Jeffrey: marked societal changes since 1978. Rookiee: the internet has changed society; doors previously barred have been opened by youth. Norbert: society wants to slow progress. Rookiee: legislators are out of touch. Jeffrey: being done by inculcating fear and hatred. Norbert: I totally agree; society has a big problem. We are scapegoats. Discussion and debate on taboo subjects is forbidden. Norbert: June 14, the Italian Alleanza Nazionale party asked the EU to rule PNVD illegal. (01:13:45 to 01:30:00)