Joe: I am executive director of boylover.net. The board creators were Boylover, Loren and ELW. They have since resigned due to real life commitments. Loren wrote the rules and designed the board. Rookiee: what is the board hierarchy? Joe: buddy team does member support and fellowship. Mod team does board legality and rule enforcement. Senior team oversees mod and buddy teams, and advises on what should be upheld. Mod and buddy managers manage teams. Admin has specific focus on member security, registrations, and technical issues. There are two directors. We intend to add directors and create a committee. (01:22 to 11:14)

Rookiee: when I first joined, I found it friendly and all forums were open. I didn’t have to register to view them. Now, one has to join to see any board. Joe: yes, unfortunately. With new software, the boards will open to the public. Currently, the existing server cannot handle the load. (11:15 to 12:09)

Joe: when we were originally attacked by somethingawful.com, we figured they were using repeated denial of service (DDOS) attacks on individual member pages. Attacks were stopped by closing the board to membership only. We are DDOS’d on an almost daily basis. Rookiee: once you go public with your new server, how will you combat attacks? Custom application code will defend us, so the system will be more secure and robust. (12:10 to 14:37)

Joe: everyone but us has been in the news. Main stream media ignores us because we are too big. We have 600,000 hits per month plus 35,000 registered users, 15% of which are active. Rookiee: how do you avoid being sued? Joe: we are just too big, plus we are not a corporation. (14:38 to 21:05)

Rookiee: your mods are strict in what can be shown. How many moderators are there? Joe: roughly 80 including admin; all staff is over 108. Rookiee: how do you select and manage your staff? Joe: we take level-headed people plus we are not political. Staff must stay neutral, although mod emotions can get in the way. They are tasked with making decisions based on our rules. For the most part it works. (21:06 to 23:50)

Rookiee: what training exists? Joe: in mod interviews, sample scenarios are provided. We pose questions, like ‘what would you do in this case?’ Before they start, there is a training room with threads with breaches. We see how they deal with these. Coaching is given if threads are not handled correctly. (23:51 to 24:34)

What happens with illegal posts? We abide by US law. For border line posts, a member has to self-edit. If they refuse, we edit or move it to a ‘cellar’ that only mods and admins can access. For clear breaches, they go to the cellar. If it is a top-five-rule breach, the member faces suspension. Rookie: are mods aware of what constitutes illegal pornography? Joe: yes. (24:35 to 26:34)

Rookiee: do you report members? What happens to the picture? Joe: I am not sure what Dutch law is regarding a host server receiving such a photo, but we would destroy it. We do not report members as we have no means to trace them. Rookie: but IP addresses are obtainable. Joe: not if a proxy is used. Member information is confidential. Rookiee: who is liable? Joe: the member. A court case ten years ago established this. We are a foreign company, so Dutch laws apply. We are subject to US law for the boards the public can browse. If a foreign agency became involved, they would have to go through Interpol. If that happened, we would seek legal advice to protect member confidentiality. (26:35 to 31:39)

Rookiee: an international treaty was recently ratified by the senate. If a Netherlands host breaks US law, the FBI can petition them to extradite people. Joe: all I can say is good luck for getting cooperation. Rookiee: several countries cooperate with this treaty. I hear legal and civil rights groups are angry, as it removes state sovereignty. Joe: no-one should have jurisdiction over the internet. If we regulate information, what’s next? Burning books outside libraries? What thoughts should be outlawed? The US with its Christian morality is so bull-headed, it thinks it can dominate all. (31:40 to 34:09)

Rookiee: we are headed towards international government. Joe: as a technical computer guy, I feel it should be treated as open source, and yet they propose to outlaw zeros and ones. Eventually, the internet will grow into its own society and will drive itself. I look at my own government and see gross inefficiency. They need to keep their hands off the internet. (34:10 to 38:29)

Joe: some countries regulate the internet. Saudi Arabia folk cannot access our site for example. China hugely regulates the internet. I would prefer my private company controlling my access to the internet, rather than my government overseeing all I do. Rookiee: when the constitution was ratified in 1778 or 1779, the bill of rights stipulated government cannot interfere with citizen’s freedoms. What if private corporations tell you ‘no, our policy prevents us hosting your content’? Joe: this happened to us. We went through six hosts in seven months, costing us $4000. As hosts received complaints and saw their networks DDOS’d, they dropped us. We bought our own server in Holland. This opened doors for us. Rookiee: you are still at the mercy of corporations. Joe: I don’t see government being any better. Rookiee: Free Spirits have their own ISP and are independent. Joe: we found a data centre willing to host us and sell us band width. (38:29 to 42:41)

Rookiee: what if The Netherlands is subjected to ‘Bush control’? Joe: then we are fucked. Rookiee: the world sees the US as a bully. Joe: the Federal government has gone astray. Originally, control was 95% state and 5% federal. That has flipped. Citizens are totally out of touch. Government wants citizens to remain stupid. Rookiee: as I got into podcasting, I found corporations limited my freedom of speech. Joe: freedom of speech doesn’t exist anymore. I was arrested for saying ‘asshole’ and ‘bullshit’ to a security officer. I got the case dismissed, but I had to post $1200 bail. We are the laughing stock of the world. Free speech my ass. (42:42 to 50:42)

Joe: re free speech, the child pornography topic is one of hot debate. Once information is online, it is impossible to get rid of. Why spend millions of dollars removing something that is there forever? Child pornography possession crime is thought crime. Rookiee: some say abuse is propagated by creating demand for it. Joe: supply and demand only works in a capitalist society where tangible and renewable assets exist. Rookiee: others say merely viewing child pornography is illegal. Joe: most people do not differentiate between viewing and possession. Mere possession harms no-one. The US government is at war with inanimate objects. (50:43 to 59:10)

Joe: intelligence agencies have this great philosophy: ‘if only we can gather enough intelligence and databases cross-referenced to each other, then we will find terrorists and fix the problem’. It is so mind-bogglingly ridiculous. There is no solution to preventing terrorism, drugs, or child pornography. Law enforcement fixates on problems here and abroad, but have no way to solve them. Rookiee: terrorists and paedophiles have become synonymous, why is this? Joe: every society needs a scapegoat to hate. Fifty years ago it was communists and homosexuals. (59:11 to 01:02:54)

Rookiee: what do you do with people who openly talk about harming children? Joe: people should exercise restraint and consider how they are perceived by saying it. They should ask: ‘am I incriminating myself, am I doing something illegal, am I putting others in jeopardy’. That is a good place to draw the line. Rookiee: I am concerned for our community. Gays back in the 1970s had to shape up to further their cause, to gain protected status plus DSM exemption. We should be doing that. Joe: do we have a political responsibility? Yes, but I don’t see things getting better. I look at NAMBLA and see the public perception of it equating with man-boy sex. They have hindered more than helped us. Rookiee: the lewd comments we make, imply we are a threat to children. Joe: if we are to gain some acceptance, we need to distance ourselves from the sexual issue. Rookiee: politically, we keep shooting ourselves in the foot. Are we perverts? Joe: yes. (01:02:55 to 01:11:17)

Joe: many new people to our community have never expressed themselves sexually, or talked to anyone else, especially not in a positive way. They come into our fold like kids in a candy store. The board gives them that opportunity. It is difficult to moderate them until they are confident with whom they are. Rookiee: the repression of our sexuality causes us to be this way. Joe: in many ways, yes. (01:11:18 to 01:14:40)

Rookiee: society would say: ‘boards promote child abuse’. Joe: I don’t see it that way. They help individuals cope/find themselves. I realise boards do not help us in the eyes of society. I found boards when I was 17. I considered myself to be a monster, after six months, I realised I wasn’t. I was normal, and, through no fault of my own, had this attraction. I cannot control my attraction, but I can and do control my actions. Rookiee: what do you say to those claiming boards incite people to crime? Joe: Opinions are like ass holes; everyone has one. There are some people who are so bigoted and prejudiced they will always think the way they do, no matter what you say. (01:14:41 to 01:25:56)