James: girl lover from Canada. John: from California. I have a blog ‘at our expense’, and post as Humbolt on girl chat. Rookiee: you two are the first girl lovers on Pedologues. Welcome! (03:05 to 08:06)

Rookiee: I notice friction in the community. Similarities but different identities. John: in the media BLs are portrayed as funny and to be mocked, whereas GLs are reviled. Rookiee: mockery was likely a result of NAMBLA. South Park’s Marlon Brando Lover Association is an example. I am into girls, but not as much as boys. Discourse on Pedologues has been about BL. What is it like to be a GL? James: society reacts strongly. John: they think of intercourse and ugly old perverts. Rookiee: societal misconceptions for sure. BLs discuss boy celebrities and the movies they appear in. Community moralists disapprove of overtly sexual debate. John: we have girl chat chat with similar discussion. (08:07 to 15:25)

Rookiee: In the boy lover community, pictures are more candid and natural. James: females are fashion-conscious and want to emulate models. Being flirtatious is popular with girls. Rookiee: I am not into model imagery, but many girl lovers are. Anger over ‘indecent and inappropriate’ photos of young girls in Salt Lake City wearing thongs, legs spread, etc. But photos were legal. FBI has become a moral arbiter of decency. Where do you think this is headed? John: I hope so many stupid laws are passed so everybody gets jailed. If non-offenders get riled, whole communities get riled and vocal. (15:26 to 23:39)

Rookiee: a recent interview with the couple for once was not twisted into something bad. Hard to do so given they have children and are happily married. James: I fully support them. Her attraction to him as a 13yo is an innate one. How many men when boys would have passed by such an opportunity? Rookiee: is it appropriate for an authority figure to be intimate with their student? John: I was against it some time ago. I recall a case of an 8yo girl having a sexual relationship with her mother. She grew up open-minded with no regrets. (23:40 to 27:29)

Rookiee: society believes child pornography is commercially produced and distributed. John: Christian conservatives uphold this view. Rookiee: has pornography changed over time? John: yes, the media now publishes more skin. My mother said it would be unacceptable in the 1960s. Rookiee: I mean, images created in studios then mailed to customers, or, self-created images distributed online. In the latter case, kids are the creators. Is that pornography? James: it depends on who you ask. John: etymology of ‘pornography’. Pornos is Greek for people who sell their bodies for money. Graphy is the act of writing down. James: now, everyone can create images – music too. Rookiee: legislators and lawmakers need to rethink what ‘pornography’ is. Most is not produced for profit. James: agree. (35:30 to 41:40)

Rookiee: wars on child pornography and drugs have equivalence. John: both have been around a long time. Rookiee: erotic definitions vary over time. Society is dynamic. Rookie refers to the youtube clip discussed in ep 23, where an 11 year old boy strips and gyrates erotically before the camera. John: are they selling their bodies? Rookiee: no, of course not. They do it for fun and exhibitionism. James: girl erotica is taken down quickly from youtube. Rookiee: moderators decide based on comments received. Rookiee: but what is OK? A youtube clip taken on Malibu beach showed two boys were beating up a third boy. That clip stayed up for months. Is violence more tolerated than sex? James: definitely. (41:41 to 46:20)

Rookiee: if sex with minors was legalised, what would happen? John: rape cases in court would increase, but the rapes overall would decrease as the stigma of child love disappears. James: the system is anti-nature because intergenerational intimacy is prosecuted. Abuse cases would decrease because the need to coerce a child into secrecy vanishes. Rookiee: laws already exist to protect against abuse and rape. (46:21 to 53:31)

Rookiee: in a puerist society, rights and protections are afforded to all, regardless of age. James: I am not a fan of forcing responsibility onto kids. Rookiee: so they should have freedom but no responsibility? James: yes. Rookiee: what ages? James: by child, I am talking pre-puberty. If a female can become pregnant, she has assumed adulthood. John: the US system infantilises children. Other societies treat post-puberty as adult. Rookiee: true of tribal cultures and also of the pre-industrialised west. (53:32 to 56:30)

Rookiee: perhaps we should consider children as full citizens. At 13 say, they can vote, go to war, and have full sexual freedom. John: outlawing religious views on sex would be a major corrective. Childhood and innocence, and age of consent, was coined in Victorian era England when child prostitution was a problem. Rookiee: chastity was imposed on girls to prevent them from legally being wed and procreating. (56:31 to 01:01:40)

James: I don’t see a child being limited. As we grow, we limit ourselves. Re technology, children are very gifted. Adults try to put the cork back into the bottle, but it is too late. Rookiee: kids have taken the place of adults when it comes to mastering technology; just look at what happens online. The internet has been the catalyst. (01:01:41 to 01:04:13)

Rookiee: Douglas Adams quote: “A set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies: Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary, plus you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.” Kids can be sexual because they demonstrate technical competence. Kids would say: ‘why freak out about us being sexual; why don’t you just grow up.’ Meanwhile moralists scream ‘kids are being abused’. Kids reply: ‘no we are not’. (01:04:14 to 01:09:08)

James: it is so easy to box oneself into a corner when debating one’s sexuality in the community. We talk about ourselves, when focus should be on the kids we desire. Being dynamic and useful lessens as one grows older. Rookiee: niches exist where you can relate your wisdom to younger community members. They help you in turn. Intergenerational dialogue is key. (01:09:09 to 01:13:16)

John: kids masturbate. I began to masturbate as a 5yo. As this is fact, sexual encounters cannot be harmful. Emotional harm or trauma is irrelevant. I ran a small survey of thirty participants who recall masturbating at 7 years old and younger. I asked: ‘do you feel you were traumatised as a result of masturbating at this age?’ All of them responded no. (01:13:17 to 01:14:45)

Rookiee: one of my friends said he masturbated at 7. At 9, he had a relationship with a 30 year old father and daughter. He said it was the happiest time of his life. James: my catholic upbringing was traumatic. It took me years to learn how the mechanics worked. As a result, I feel cheated. From 9, adventures started with an older guy. Sex was a wonderful thing to have. It bothers me that society denies children early experiences. As a child, it was all fun with no inhibitions, no emotional conflicts, and no attachments. It was all one big game. I just rubbed myself raw without orgasm. Rookiee: was it a learning experience? James: definitely. It was exploration, an insatiable curiosity and obsession. (01:14:46 to 01:18:41)

I was fortunate to have a 16yo teen who shared my interest for two years. I was fascinated by his ability to orgasm whilst pleasuring him. I know he was experiencing something wonderful. We worked on my ability to orgasm. Finally it happened. Rookiee: society would say you were traumatised and were forced by him, that you never grew up and turned into a paedophile. James: I miss him and would love to contact him. It was love. I used every excuse to be with him. Rookiee: was that love different from what you experience now? James: nothing like it since. I grew up heterosexual. Maybe there is a kind of reversal, young girls climbing into my arms now and me climbing into the teens arms then. (01:18:42 to 01:22:40)

At 11, I discovered homosexuality was a mortal sin in catholic church diktats. I went directly to the teen and asked for my comic books back. I told him I found out that what we were doing was a sin and I couldn’t see him again. That was the last time I saw him. For years, that was my shameful secret I couldn’t divulge, especially to adult girlfriends. John: I was very religious growing up; I too suffered shame. I’d convince myself I was asexual and my sexual side was a perversion. Rookiee: perhaps ‘normal people’ push their ‘perverse’ sexual side away, because they are in denial of what they actually are. Rookiee: was what you did as a child natural or unnatural? James: looking back, it feels very natural. (01:22:41 to 01:24:53)

Rookiee: bonobo apes are closer to humans than chimps are. They are apex sexed up primates. It is intrinsic for us to experience sex from a young age; being denied is damaging. Our society is so violent likely because of this damage. Bonobos communicate across every generation with sexual acts. Ironically, bonobos are one of God’s creations. It appears governments use denial of sexual freedom to breed warmongers. (01:24:54 to 01:30:32)