On this episode of the “Personal Injury Marketing Minute,” the spotlight is on how to make PPC (Pay-Per-Click) campaigns and landing pages click with the right audience. While PPC campaigns can sometimes feel like a tough nut to crack in crowded markets, they can be a game-changer for the right law firm—if they’re done the right way.

Mary Blackiston joins the conversation to share her tips, tricks, and personal experiences in creating PPC ads and landing pages that actually convert.

In this episode, we cover:

Visit Mary online here: www.thryvedigitalmarketing.com or https://www.linkedin.com/in/marybblackiston/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

https://youtu.be/GxvgwMLWUmg

Lindsey:

Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. Traditionally, we steer clear of talking about PPC campaigns.

For many attorneys in saturated markets, PPC campaigns haven’t produced a great ROI. However, they can be incredibly useful for the right firms, but only if they’re done right.

So today, we’re going to take a deep dive into the art of creating PPC ads and corresponding landing pages that convert.

Mary: joins us today. to discuss her approach to creating PPC ad language and landing pages that are backed by research and data, increasing conversions based on the user.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Mary:

Thank you for having me.

Lindsey:

Well, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into marketing.

Mary:

Yeah, so I started working in marketing about 8.8 and a half years ago now. I started working as a content marketer at a digital agency, and I stayed there for about four years.

While I was there, started to kind of dip my toes into copywriting, and that’s when I realized, hey, this is a lot of fun.

I really like doing this, but I didn’t really get into it until I broke off to do my own thing.

So that was about four and a half years ago that I, you know, became freelance, and I started to

Basically to learn everything I possibly could about copywriting. I went through copy school, which I’m not sure if you’ll are familiar with that, but basically the most comprehensive copywriting training on the internet today.

Got certified in a bunch of their courses, read as much as I could about marketing and psychology and copywriting.

And yeah, they just started putting everything into practice, working with clients. Over the last two years, I started working more and more with law firms in particular, and that work felt really meaningful to me.

I really enjoyed it, and I felt like I was making a positive impact by helping those firms. So that’s why I decided to specialize in legal marketing.

Lindsey:

And so how did you end up working with PPC ads and landing pages for PPC ads?

Mary:

Yeah, so I had one client in particular that we worked on a Google ads campaign for him, and we got some…

Amazing results. And I felt like, you know what, there’s, as I looked at more and more PC campaigns, I was like, there’s a lot that I can do to help optimize these campaigns to help these firms bring in more qualified leads.

And we can talk about that a little bit more later, some of the biggest mistakes I see. But yeah, I saw a lot of room for opportunity there.

And it’s something I really enjoy doing is kind of digging through that data and, you know, figuring out, okay, what can we do to bring in not only more clicks, but more, you know, qualified leads.

And yeah.

Lindsey:

And PPC is so complicated. And you’re right, there are so many things that can go wrong with it. And there are some people who are really great with the technical aspects of it.

There are people who can be great with the written content pieces of it. But before we get into too much of the weeds, let’s start with kind of an overview.

So for those of our listeners who have never used PPC, How is it set up? So how is a PPC ad written?

And where does a user go? How do they navigate to the landing page? Can you walk us through that process?

Mary:

Yeah, so when someone searches for something on Google, you know, there’s some ads that pop up, and then the ad takes them to a specific landing page.

The goal is for you want the ad in the landing page to feel, you know, kind of like a seamless experience, meaning the message and the tone should match people when they land on the page, should be not really any surprises.

So if the ad, for example, says like injured in a car accident, get a free legal consultation, then the landing page should continue that conversation, not suddenly talk about unrelated services.

So I see a lot of firms that like maybe actually have an ad for one thing, but then they take people to their homepage or something that’s unrelated to what.

People are searching for, or they, you know, their ads are showing for services that they don’t offer. So this is just a complete waste of your ad budget.

So, you know, you want, that’s why it’s so important to either have more, more targeted keyword type, like phrase or exact match, or add a lot of negative keywords to your campaign to make sure that’s not showing up for, you know, for those keywords.

Lindsey:

And so kind of, I want to, I want to jump to another question that I had in mind, but how much control do you have over the language that appears in the campaign language versus how much does Google change the language after you’ve said it?

Mary:

Well, when I first write the ad copy, like the headlines and the descriptions, I write the ad copy and then Google tests different combinations to determine the best placement of the copy, you know, depending on what people are searching for.

So that said, I normally prefer. To pin headlines, because I found that that can lead to the best results.

Google doesn’t really like it because Google likes to have control over your campaign. But pinning your headlines gives you more control over how that appears and allows you to attract like a more targeted audience.

So for example, like with one of my clients, this client helps women who have been harassed by their landlords, we noticed that a few unqualified leads have been trickling in.

So for some reason, we’ve been getting leads that had nothing to do with what he offers. So rather than let Google mix and match our ad copy, I suggested that we pin the headline Stop Housing Harassment.

So that would appear first in the ad and kind of essentially help pre-qualify leads. So my thinking was, okay, it might help, it might decrease our CTR, but it would increase our conversion rate and bring in higher quality leads.

So I was right. Click-through rate dropped from 14.29% to 4.26%. And then our conversion rate for that ad went up from 7.87% to 19.36%.

And then most importantly, the lead quality improved. So it’s all just from hitting the headlines. But then the funny thing was that our quality score, which is like what Google says, if your ads are poor or good, and it stayed poor, presumably because we weren’t listening to Google’s recommendations, but the ad actually performed better.

So it goes to show, don’t pay too much attention to the quality score. At the end of the day, it’s not a very important metric.

Lindsey:

Right, because what Google wants is to make money.

Mary:

They want people to be clicking on that ad.

Lindsey:

And their metric for success is how many clicks is this ad generating? And it’s not necessarily, it doesn’t have the data to show, you know, what is the…

Lead quality at the end of this and how qualified are the leads that are coming in? So they’re using the only metric they have.

And of course, it’s going to be poor, but you want to be targeting the right types of clients. And so this starts with doing research on the clients that you’re trying to target.

And that’s one of the things that I really appreciate about your method. So let’s dig into your PPC campaign development a little bit.

What research do you conduct when you’re hashing out the language for the PPC ads themselves?

Mary:

Yeah, so I start every project with the discovery phase and the voice of client research. So first, I hop on one or two 60-minute messaging intensive calls.

That’s what I call them with my clients. That’s where I ask a series of questions to find out more about their goals, their firm, their unique differentiators, what is their story, like the why behind what they do, the different services that they offer, and their target audience.

ahead ahead and if Bye. Then if possible, I’ll also like to speak with the intake specialist or two, since they speak a lot with the ideal client.

I also ask my client to send over any research and data from the last year, if they’ve been running any PPC campaigns.

So that could include intake call recordings or transcripts, particularly if they can be anonymized. Anonymize is great. Email exchanges with clients, and again, if those can be removing any identifying information, testimonials, conversion data, or any data on lead quality, website analytics, like that sort of thing.

And then from there, I do my own research, and that’s the voice of client research. So reviewing all the research that my client provided me with.

Also, I’m interviewing three to five of my clients’ clients, sending a survey to their email list if they have one, checking out forums or like Reddit or Facebook groups where their ideal client hangs out.

To see what questions they’re asking, the words that they use, looking at the language and all of that. And then I analyze the research and look for any trends and pull everything together into comprehensive messaging docs.

And that outlines basically the, like who the ideal client is, and the solution that my client is offering. So, yeah, it goes into a little more detail, but that’s kind of in a nutshell how the research process works.

Lindsey:

Well, and I think that you’re hitting the nail on the head with it, especially when you are reaching out to former clients.

Nobody’s going to be able to tell a law firm why a client is signing up with a certain law firm better than the client who signed up with that law firm.

Like a lawyer can only have so much self-awareness of what is driving the clients through the door. But when you actually talk to your former clients or existing clients about what you’re doing well about.

Where their needs are prior to coming in, what attracted them to work with this specific law firm, that’s data that is just gold when you’re trying to attract future clients.

Mary:

Yes, definitely.

Lindsey:

And so for each of these PPC campaigns that you’re writing, do you typically do like one blanket PPC campaign, like here’s an ad that we’re going to run in the one process, or do you tend to make a multitude of ads that are attracting people at different stages in their journey, trying to find an attorney?

Mary:

Um, well, it really depends. But to keep things simple, we, you know, normally just start with one landing page, and then a few sets of ads.

And then we can always expand from there. But it, you know, if you’re running, so starting with just one kind of really target offer.

So for example, with my We’re now working on a more targeted campaign, you know, for women who have been just assaulted.

So rather than harassed, they’ve been assaulted, experienced something physical. So we’re targeting that very specific audience. But yeah, I mean, you can go much more in depth with it.

You can also create blog posts that are, you know, like if someone’s searching for what do I do after a dog bite or something like that, we know that the person has likely, you know, been in this accident and they’re looking, they might not be looking for a lawyer yet, but they’re, they need guidance on the next step.

So like something like a blog post can, can help to nurture the audience to provide them with some valuable content and then have a call to action at the end that will, you know, or throughout the post that will get them to take action.

So, yeah, there’s a lot of different ways that you can do it. But I think just keeping things simple and one landing page and then, you know, expanding from there based on like the search terms that we find people are like, what are they searching for?

How can we match that intent with the landing page and that copy?

Lindsey:

Well, and I guess most of our listeners here are personal injury attorneys. And my broader question here is if we’re working with a personal injury attorney and they have car accidents and they have dog bites and they have motorcycle accidents and bicycle accidents, should they be running a different PPC ad campaign for each different accident type and have individual landing pages for each of those campaigns?

Or should it all be leading back to one landing page?

Mary:

Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, definitely want to have individual landing pages for each of your services. And that’s something that I’ve seen, like a lot of law firms do not do, they create like just send people to their homepage or something.

So the ad copy or the, you know, people are searching something into Google, and then maybe searching for like, car accident attorney, and then they’re taken to a landing page that’s just like, you know, very general.

It’s not, it’s not speaking to someone who’s just been in a car accident. So you definitely want to create targeted landing pages for each of your campaigns.

Yeah, that’s super, super important. Also, because we really want to have, be speaking to one, one audience, one reader.

That way, we can be more specific with the copy. If you’re speaking to multiple audiences, it’s, it’s much more difficult to create really persuasive, compelling copy.

That’s why homepages are often very difficult to write, because they’re speaking to so many different audiences. But landing pages, you

You can get really, really specific, and a specific copy is always going to perform better.

Lindsey:

Well, I can imagine you can take this into a very granular level where you, I mean, yes, of course, have a PPC ad.

If you have a motorcycle accident ad, have a motorcycle accident landing page that corresponds with that. Somebody’s in an accident, they’re searching for motorcycle accident attorney, takes them to that page, bada boom.

But you can create additional types of campaigns that have a more granular audience. So let’s say the motorcycle accident was fatal.

If you have a spouse who is looking for an attorney, a wrongful death, a fatal motorcycle accident attorney, they’re going to be looking for very different information than somebody who survived the accident and is looking for an attorney for themselves.

So creating different ads that are curated for different audiences and different landing page that can meet somebody empathetically where they’re at, you can get really creative and have a breadth of land.

Landing pages that can specifically target a certain demographic.

Mary:

And so it’s one of the beautiful things that you can do with ad copy.

Lindsey:

is, you know, an infinite well of possibility that goes into it. And I know that you take a look at the audiences as you’re researching the copy for the landing pages themselves.

So talk to me about your research process as you are looking at the demographics that you’re writing to and how you are creating the language for each landing page.

Mary:

Yeah. So, you know, I think I touched on the research process before, but that’s like some of what that might involve might be like reviewing all recordings or chat transcripts or, you know, any kind of communication with the client.

Testimonials that they’ve written or even if you don’t have a lot of, if the firm does not have a lot of testimonials, reviewing like testimonials for competitors to see, okay, what are these things that they really value?

What are the things that they don’t value, like, you know, to see both the good and the bad reviews that they’ve left.

And then also the client interviews are a really good way to get that voice of client research. So I like to interview like at least three of my clients’ clients, you know, the three to five is a good number to shoot for and record those calls.

And then, yeah, basically looking for, okay, what are, who is this target audience that we’re speaking to? What are their really deep-seated pain points and hesitations, motivations?

What are the things that they need to know in order to take the next step? And just, yeah, it goes into a lot of detail, but that sort of high level, the things that I look for.

When I go through the research.

Lindsey:

And it’s such an art because a lawyer can, of course, sit down and write a page of content. Typically, the lawyers that we work with and lawyers that we know have a tough time of taking off the lawyer hat when they’re writing information.

They are very focused on laws and what the state statutes are and the basic information, as opposed to really getting inside the head of somebody who has been through a highly traumatic experience and knowing specifically what those pain points are and writing to those in a way that says, we’re going to take care of you.

And we’re going to alleviate this pain point to the best of our ability. And here’s how we’re going to support you throughout this process.

So it’s so important to get inside the head of the person who’s actually reading this content. You’ve gotten them there.

You are speaking to them and helping them with the exact struggle that they are facing right now.

Mary:

Yes. Yeah. Having empathy is super important. And it’s like you said, copywriting is not the same as the writing we learn in school.

Like the way that I wrote. In college, it’s very different from writing copy. mean, writing copy is literally just writing like you speak.

So I, you know, just see a lot of websites, law firm websites that use more very formal language, and that really just creates a barrier between you and the reader.

So you want to, you know, that it’s really having the opposite effect of what you what you want. know that law firm websites, maybe they’re also speaking to other lawyers, so that’s kind of have to find that the balance.

But that’s why having targeted landing pages for your audience, are super important, because you might speak to them in a different way than you would speak to another lawyer, for example.

Lindsey:

Well, and content writing for the PPC landing pages is different than copywriting for, you know, for the regular pages for your website, when you’re trying to use, you know, SEO best practices as the guidelines here.

And when it comes to SEO, we tend to write content that is really in depth, that covers all the information, answers all the FAQs.

And gives all the information. That Google wants to see and that anybody could possibly ask as they are searching for a specific thing.

But the BBC landing pages are created in a different way. So can you talk to us a bit about how in-depth these landing pages are and what types of information need to be on them?

Mary:

Yeah, so that really depends on the target audience, what the service is and all of that. But I always say it’s however long it needs to be to get the reader to take action.

So however much copy that requires, normally like the landing pages that I write for law firms tend to be like at least 4,000 words, like 4,200 to 500 words around there seems to be like the sweet spot.

So, you know, that’s addressing all of their questions that they might have. Their hesitations, pain points, everything. So it’s pretty in-depth.

And then it’s bringing all that research together. It’s also tying in persuasion techniques, you know, copywriting best practices, and, you know, what, yeah.

But basically, I like to think of the landing page as a kind of conversation with, you know, my client were sitting down, like, at a bar with a good friend, having a drink, and that friend were just in an accident.

You know, probably might not be having a drink at that time, but just, you know, what would that friend be asking, and how would you answer those questions?

So thinking about it like that is, for me, like the most helpful approach.

Lindsey:

And that’s a great approach to it. It’s very natural. It’s very organic. It, you know, allows you to answer questions that people would be naturally having as they have a conversation with Google to try to have this information.

These are all the right pieces of information to be including in these pages. And so we’ve got our PPC ad, we’ve got the language set there, we’ve got our landing page, we’ve the language set there.

The ad is now turned on. So what data are we using throughout the campaign process, and how does that data inform any tweaks that you’re making throughout?

Mary:

Yeah, so there’s a few different metrics that I look at. For example, form submissions, which is an obvious one, how many people are converting.

So right now, because it depends on the campaign right now, for one of my clients, we have a type form, and that’s helping us to bring in more qualified leads.

So we have much fewer people who end up completing the form, so much fewer conversions. But, yeah, so, but we’re hopefully bringing in more questions.

Qualified leads. So I look at for that, like the percentage of clicks that start the form, that gives us an idea of like how qualified our, our traffic or clicks are, and whether or not the copy is resonating with them.

The conversion rate, so the percentage of clicks that complete the form, and that tells us how, you know, qualified the traffic is, unless people aren’t, you know, completing the form for other reasons.

The time on the page, that is another metric I like to look at, like, and that tells me if the copy is engaging people, if people, if the time on page is like 50 seconds, that might tell you something, okay, we need to, you know, optimize the copy here.

So with one of my last clients, used Hotjar to see how people were interacting with the page and how long they spent on the page, where were they clicking around and spending time.

So that is also interesting to look at that data. We also added an exit. It’s an intense survey to find out why people left the page.

Then also like, you know, click. And click-through rate tells us how compelling or relevant our ad copy is. Search terms are, you know, really like to see what search terms, so it’s not really a metric, but just to see what search terms people are putting into Google.

So, you know, are these people like, that can tell us basically if people are searching for unrelated keywords or related keywords to your campaign, and whether or not you need to try a different keyword strategy.

And then cost per qualified lead is obviously a very important metric, so communicating with my client each week about the lead quality, because ultimately the form data can only tell us so much about how qualified those leads are.

And then most important metric, cost per case, which, you know, obviously will take us time, more time to find out, but the lead quality and cost per qualified lead will give us an idea of whether or not we’re headed in the right direction with that.

Lindsey:

see you next time. That’s great. And those are some great success metrics as you’re qualifying and altering your campaign.

And then clearly establishing whether or not this type of marketing is a good ROI for your firm. So let’s get into some dirt.

What are some of the biggest mistakes you see people making when developing PPC campaigns and landing pages?

Mary:

Yeah. So it’s funny. actually posted about this to LinkedIn not too long ago. But these are some of the top mistakes that I’ve seen.

Not having landing pages until people are searching for us. So back to what we were talking about. If someone searches for dog bite lawyer, don’t send them to your homepage, you know.

Have a, or worse, send them to like Clarkson landing page, which I think I’ve actually seen people do too.

So, you know, have the landing page be tailored to what people are searching for. Visitors expect to land on a page that…

You know, speaks to what they’re searching for. So if they have to go on a scavenger hunt looking for the information they need, most people are just going to click off the page and, you know, won’t even bother.

So, and also Google rewards relevance. So the more aligned your page is with the search intent, the better your ads will perform.

Then also treating the landing page like one long blog post. So I see like a lot of law firms, you know, that the pages are not formatted like, like landing pages, they’re kind of just wide margins, big chunks of text, not a lot of photos and the copy just isn’t formatted in a very readable, engaging way.

So instead, I had always advised clients to go with, you know, just shorter paragraphs, you know, smaller margins, varied layouts, bullet points, like bold and italicized keywords, but just having a lot of.

White space throughout that sort of thing. So just structuring it like a landing page and not a blog post.

Not taking into account stage of awareness. So, you know, someone searches for your car accident services, they’ve probably just been in a car accident.

So they don’t need and I see a lot of like landing pages that have, you know, they’re, they’re more like, more read like blog posts, you know, they’re like not taking into account the stage of awareness.

So they’re talking about like, causes of car accidents, but people who’ve just been in a car accident don’t need to know the causes of car accidents, they want to know how you can help them.

So that’s another thing I see a lot. And then just kind of we, we, we language. So, you know, people really don’t care about how long you’ve been in business, the millions that you’ve gotten for their clients.

Many people don’t even like think about money as a motivator. So they, they just, they care about like, okay.

their problem, how you can help them. So whenever possible, a good rule of thumb is to turn every sentence around to start with you.

So that is just like a subtle shift that will help your readers to see themselves in their messaging. And that will ultimately build trust and make them more likely to take action.

And then, yeah, I still have a few more, but I don’t know.

Lindsey:

No, no, I would love any information that you have to share.

Mary:

Yeah, there’s a, I guess, that kind of similar to what we were talking about, but a lot of legal jargon that’s optimized for SEO, but not for conversions.

So, for example, yeah, just using kind of words that, like, we are a comprehensive legal firm, primarily focused and, you know, like, people don’t care, you know, so get to the point.

What is it that you’re offering? How can you help people? How is it going to benefit them? So like that type of

Language might work well for, like, an academic paper or law textbook, but it’s not moving your reader forward, so it doesn’t belong on the landing page.

It doesn’t, so I like to think, like, Joseph Sugarman, a famous copywriter, like, says that every line of copy should be, like, a slippery slide.

So every line of copy should take your, you know, should make your reader want to keep reading. So that’s kind of a good thing when you’re, just read the copy and be like, does this, you know, make the person, like, make, you know, or get someone else to read your copy, and, like, does this make them want to keep reading?

If not, then probably doesn’t belong on your page. And then speak to your readers as if they were a good friend, use a voice of client research to mirror the language that they use.

Then the last kind of thing that I see, that I can think of, least, is not having an about story.

see a lot of, I mean, some law firms do this, but I see a lot that don’t have this, and that’s…

A huge missed opportunity because sharing a compelling story and like the why behind what you do, that creates trust and it builds a connection with the reader.

And yeah, people at the end of the day, people hire people, not faceless firms. So sharing like why this is so important to you, why you butt into what you do can really go a long way.

Lindsey:

And I think that those are all some really great tips. And I think that there are some opportunities there that a lot of lawyers overlook.

So if there was one thing that lawyers could do today to help as they write a landing page for a PPC ad, what is the one best tip that you could give them?

Mary:

It’s hard to pick just one. I mean, I think, yeah, voice of client research, but that’s pretty time consuming.

I mean, if you want kind of the So if you don’t want to hire a copywriter, you just want to do it yourself, checking out Reddit is a really great place to get some voice of client research on a budget and a time crunch.

So that can go a really long way to helping with your copy and create that copy.

Lindsey:

Get to know your clients, like whether they are your clients that you are interviewing as an exit interview or you’re going to Reddit to find out what other people think.

Mary:

Ask the questions.

Lindsey:

Don’t assume that you know where they’re coming from or what the pain points are. Really talk to them and ask some good questions.

So thank you so much, Mary. I really appreciate your time joining us today and sharing all your information. And if you send us the link to your LinkedIn article or any other resources that you have, we’ll be happy to share them in the podcast notes.

Mary:

Thank you.

Levin & Perconti is a leading personal injury law firm based in Chicago. Joining us today is managing partner Margaret Battersby Black. Margaret is an award-winning attorney who has obtained many large verdicts and settlements including record ones for her clients especially in the areas of nursing home and medical malpractice cases at Levin & Perconti.

Margaret is committed to the advancement of women in the legal profession and serves as a mentor to law students and younger lawyers. In 2023 she was bestowed the “Carole K. Bellows Women of Influence” award which honors those who are advocates for action addressing women’s issues and promote involvement by women in the legal community at all levels. Additionally, Margaret will be  installed  as the 3rd Vice President of ITLA, ascending to the presidency in 2028 as the organization’s 75th president. She will become the 4th woman president in the organization’s history.

Today, she’s going to talk with us about what it’s like being both a personal injury attorney and a mom with two young kids.

Visit Margaret online here: https://www.levinperconti.com/attorneys/margaret-p-battersby-black/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Lindsey:

Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.

Every year, more and more women have been joining the legal profession. According to the ABA, women now comprise 41% of all lawyers in the United States.

With women now making up over 56% of all law school students, this trend is only expected to escalate. But women face some hurdles in their careers that men simply don’t, at least not to the same degree.

This is especially true when it comes to balancing motherhood and a high-pressure career. To be clear, many male lawyers are amazing fathers who are actively engaged in their kids’ lives, and y’all deserve support and praise too.

But as women continue to join the legal profession in droves, it is important to be mindful of the challenges and opportunities to provide support as we push forward in our path to legal excellence.

Margaret:, an award-winning… Attorney from Levin & Perconti joins us today to discuss life as a personal injury attorney and a mom with two young children.

In 2023, she was bestowed the Carol K. Bellows Women of Influence Award, which honors those who advocate for women’s issues and promote women’s involvement in the legal community.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Margaret:

Thanks, Lindsey. I’m glad to be here.

Lindsey:

Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got started in your legal career.

Margaret:

Sure. So I’ve actually been working in my legal career, and this is now my 18th year, I think, 17th year as a lawyer.

But I actually started with this firm as a law clerk back in 2006. And so backing up a little bit, I grew up in Michigan.

I come from a family of lawyers and judges, and according to my parents, I always had a sense of fairness and justice.

And so I think that was probably a challenge for my parents, but they understood that maybe it meant that I had some spirit that was destined to, you know, take me to into the field of law.

And so I did, actually, law was not my first career. I went to the University of Michigan, had the great fortune of getting into their undergrad business school, and there were a lot of opportunities for me coming out of undergrad to move to Chicago and work at a financial firm.

So I did that for several years. I liked it. I had great opportunities, but I did realize that I probably wasn’t meant to sit at a desk in crunch numbers.

And the idea of law school was always in the back of my mind. My dad had suggested that I take some time off and work.

Work, just make myself distinguishable in the legal marketplace for when I would come out of law school. And so I worked for three years for JPMorgan Chase in Chicago, and then started law school.

When I started, I knew I wasn’t going to become a corporate lawyer or do big law, or I knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer.

I knew I wanted to be in front of people. I knew I wanted to help people. I was pretty sure it wasn’t going to be a prosecutor or, you know, criminal defense lawyer.

And so I had the great fortune of having a conversation in December of 2005 with one of my dad’s best friends from law school, who knew Steve Levin of Levin & Perconti, where I now work.

And he said, you know, reach out to him if you’re interested in something for the summer. You know, he, you know, frequently will hire law clerks.

So I. Reached out. I got an interview, which at the time, apparently I was highly impressive to Steve because I brought a paper copy of my resume and also sent an electronic one in advance.

And back in 2006, don’t know, maybe many people weren’t doing that. So he hired me, funny enough, because we’re doing a podcast right now.

He hired me way back when legal blogging was just kind of taking off. And he had all these great ideas.

He’s a really innovative marketer in the personal injury space, but he could not execute them. And so he hired me to learn how to blog and to just start blogging about different topics.

So that was kind of towards the end of my first year in law school. And I liked working with him.

They needed a full-time law clerk. So I stayed on for the summer. on for the And I think that summer is when I knew that personal injury was probably going to be the right move for me, because I was able to work that summer on a trial that Steve Levin and Mike Bonamart, my current partner, were working on that involved a family, two younger, I’ll say, 20-something daughters who had lost their mom due to neglect in a nursing home.

And just kind of some personal background, when I was 23, I lost my mom in a car accident. And so I was able to relate to what it’s like to be in your 20s and maybe not have gone through some of the milestones with your mom that you were expecting or be able to learn from your mom some of the things that you need to know to become a mom and as you age.

So Steve… And appropriately and softly asked if that was something I was willing to work on, to meet with these women, try to get out of them some good evidence so that we could put their testimony on at trial so that we could bring to the jury what they lost.

And that was really rewarding to me. And I really bonded with these women because we had been through similar experiences where there’s a sudden loss.

And, you know, just on that note, since we’re talking today about women in personal injury, I think that that is one really strong skill set that women bring to this profession is, you know, that we typically have empathy and we, you know, are able to maybe, you know, better navigate people through times of crisis, just with maybe some motherly instincts.

It doesn’t mean you have to be a mother to have those motherly instincts, of course, but because at the time that I was.

Doing that, I was not. But that was, we won that case. The clients were, you know, thrilled. And I had a great time working with Mike and Steve.

And I told my dad, you know, I think, I think I want to do what you do, because my dad is a personal injury lawyer, too.

And so that was always in the back of my mind, too. Meeting clients who he had helped throughout his life, you know, who still kept in touch and thanked him for changing their lives.

And it felt a lot better than crunching numbers at a bank. Well, and it’s clearly a natural fit for you.

Lindsey:

You come from a, you know, long line of lawyers, and you have the family support there. And it sounds like you made a real personal connection when you were choosing your field and realizing that this was absolutely the right type of practice for you.

And so you have your legal career, and you are also balancing, clearly, motherhood at the same time.

Margaret:

So tell us a little bit about. about your family and about your kids. Sure. Well, today, I have an 11-year-old, Evelyn.

She will be a middle schooler next year. And a 10-year-old, William, so he’ll be in fifth grade. And they’re at a great age right now where they still like me and want to hang out with me, but they can do things for themselves.

So, like, you know, Evelyn can go to the corner grocery store and pick up some things for me. And, you know, William, he can take the trash out.

He’s not quite as adventuresome with his willingness to, you know, do things for me. But it’s been a long road, you know, as you know.

You know, they were infants and toddlers. They’re 19 months apart. So certainly integrating, you know, working at a law firm and kind of, you know, I don’t really, I would say I probably didn’t really ever.

I my pace in terms of what I was able to handle with trials and workload. I certainly had a lot of support and help at home.

I had, you know, Annie. My husband decided around COVID time that he would retire and he would be our childcare solution.

And that obviously allows me great latitude to be able to do what I want. And, you know, obviously I had a lot of support at Levin & Perconti.

So when I went on maternity leave, it was the first maternity leave that they had experience with a lawyer in 21 years.

Lindsey:

Oh, wow.

Margaret:

Yeah. So my partner, Susan Novosad, who was one of the founder, founding lawyers of the firm, she had three kids.

So she went through it, but it had been a while. And I just remember, you know, I. I love what I do so much that, although obviously I needed maternity leave and I loved maternity leave and I, you know, wanted to take it and bond with the kids, like it was very hard for me to completely disconnect.

And I have, you know, really great colleagues who would keep me filled in, but still would cover things for me so, you I could spend time with my kids.

But, you know, I did stay connected when I was on maternity leave because I feel like, you know, a lot of my clients are like my own family and I want to make sure that they’re getting, you know, navigated through the process.

But I certainly did also get the time to bond with my kids and, you know, do all of those things.

And I’ll tell you, being a mom, I think is a much harder job than being a lawyer.

Lindsey:

I can absolutely relate. I have two young kiddos myself. I have a three-year-old daughter and a six-year-old daughter, and I love hearing you say that they are a little bit more self-sufficient in the years to come.

Because my three-year-old was very much up at 515 this morning and, you know, wanting to go to the grocery store and go get bananas.

And I had to explain that the grocery store was not open yet. So I’m glad to hear you say that it gets a little bit easier in the years to come.

Margaret:

But no, the day that you know you really, you kind of made it as a mom is when your youngest can turn on the remote and like make a piece of toaster, get some cereal, because then you might get to sleep in until like seven, eight o’clock, which is, I’m sure something that you’re not doing right now.

Lindsey:

Not as often as I would like. And they’re almost there. My six-year-old has been self-sufficient since she was two and a half.

She had all that figured out. I put all the right snacks at the grabbing distance for her. But the three-year-old very much likes to be social and yeah.

Have, you know, share my cup of coffee in the morning. So it’s, they’re just very different personalities. And it, and that in itself is a challenge to juggle, you know, much less trying to juggle, you know, motherhood as a whole with a career, but I can absolutely relate to what you’re saying, where when you have kids and you go on maternity leave, you have two different parts of your personality that are at odds trying to be engaged at the same time.

You have, you’re trying to bond and connect and you have these maternal instincts that, you know, bring out some very soft parts of your personality.

And then you also have a highly intellectual wanting to be engaged and stimulated and contribute in more cerebral adult ways.

And it can kind of tear you apart if you don’t have the right supports in place.

Margaret:

Yeah, definitely.

Lindsey:

And so what, you know, as you came out of maternity leave and started to kind of navigate back into Yeah.

Full-time legal space. What were some of the biggest struggles that you faced as you were developing in your legal career?

Margaret:

Well, you know, this is, I wouldn’t call this, this is more of on like a micro level. I remember when I came back, the biggest challenge was getting myself to leave the office because when you’ve got infants and toddlers, they’re, you know, they’re in bed for the night, like 6.30 to 7.30.

And I was used to, you know, working until at least then. And then even sometimes, you know, grabbing dinner with colleagues or going to legal events.

So I had to kind of like plan out when to leave. And, you know, at the time that I had Evelyn, so this is 2013, we were equipped that if I needed to work from home, I could log in remotely.

And I did that a lot in her, you know, in the first several months that, that. Following maternity leave that I was like kind of learning how to balance it because I don’t like leaving things unfinished, but I would be working on something and then it would be, oh my gosh, like if I don’t leave now, I’m not going to say goodnight to her.

And so I’d have to just leave it and say, come back when she’s in bed. So that was a challenge.

I always say, you know, I’m going to leave and then I just find myself getting caught up in things.

So disciplining myself to be able to do that, that was a challenge. I will say that the hardest part about being a trial lawyer and having kids is that, you know, I know at some point on this podcast, I assume that the concept of work-life balance will come up, right?

And I do think for what I do, I am able to, on many, many days, plan my day out so that I have that balance.

Today, for example, I’m going to be leaving at 4.30 so I can go. be Will I have to log on this evening just to kind of catch up on things?

Absolutely. But I can do that today because I’m not in court. I’m not on trial. When you’re on trial and you are a personal injury lawyer, you know, I mean, forget about seeing anyone for the duration of the trial.

If you do, great. But you are, you know, I’m up at 445 so I can be in the office at six o’clock and I’m there until my kids go to bed and maybe I’ll see them on the weekends, but I’ve got to work.

And so that is challenging. And I think that that is one of the reasons why it’s difficult to keep women in the profession once they have kids is that when you are on trial or when you have court or something like that, there isn’t flexibility.

You know, you can’t just say I’m going to work from home. You can’t call off. Um, I mean, obviously having support is important because, you know, we’re all human and, you know, people can be sympathetic if you’re absolutely in a bind, but you’re in the middle of a trial, like you’re stuck.

Um, and so that was a, that was a transition to, um, my kids, as they started to get older, started to learn what trial is.

And, you know, if I would say I’m going on trial, they would, you know, they’d be a little down.

Um, but the great thing about what I do is that I would be able to, and I, today, you know, they’re obviously more, um, they’re older and more sophisticated in their understanding of, of the world.

Um, I’m able to say like, I’m going to, to trial because there’s a little boy who has a really bad brain injury and he’s not going to be able to grow up like you and go to college and and have a job.

Um, and he needs me right now. And they’re starting to understand that.

Lindsey:

And that is a hard thing to explain. And, I mean. Especially when you have young children, those are concepts that they are faced with at a really young age when they’re raised in this environment.

And even if you can rationalize your way through it, even if they can really kind of start to put the pieces together, it’s a challenge and there’s no way around it.

It’s sad when you feel like you’re missing the milestones for your kids because obviously trial isn’t being scheduled around when your daughter’s dance recital is.

It’s not being scheduled around those big milestones in life. And that’s a sacrifice that as professionals, especially as personal injury attorneys, you have to be willing to make.

And it doesn’t mean that you don’t love your family or love your kids any less. It’s just a harsh reality that women in this industry have to face.

Um, so I, I wish you all, all of the love in your family, all the love in that, because that.

That’s. And so I know that you’re able to work from home a bit, and that’s a great way that your law firm can help support you.

What other supports do you have professionally that helps take the load off a little bit? Sure.

Margaret:

Well, I mean, there are definitely some structured organizations. I’m a member of the Illinois Women’s Bar Association. The Illinois Trilers Association has a specific group that we call the Women’s Caucus.

So I’m regularly surrounded by women who are going through the same things. So in a lot of ways, that’s helpful because, you know, sometimes you have good tips or good, you can give good tips and feel good about helping someone else, or you can get some good tips.

And just talking through things and knowing that other people are going through it and trying to brainstorm ways. To navigate and, you know, strategize is great.

I would say at Live in Empower County, we almost have like an informal kind of mentoring program because we do have so many women who are working here, many of whom are mothers, many who have navigated their way through maternity leaves while here, or some who have come over maybe from other firms after having kids, but still, you know, have the demands of school conferences and, you know, sporting events and sick kids.

And so I think we’re all very supportive of one another. And, you know, the other thing I think is just kind of being able to encourage people who are going through, you know, days or even weeks or trials where they think like, I’m not like, I can’t do this anymore.

You know, I need to say, I’ve I don’t think I can make it work just to kind of say, like, you can make it work.

We’re here for you. But you know what? I mean, some people, they can’t make it work. And there’s still a role for people in personal injury law who maybe don’t have the flexibility to be able to try cases.

So I think that’s another thing that we’ve done is we’ve been able to accommodate people who maybe, you know, can’t commit to that kind of a schedule.

And then the other thing, of course, is, you know, our policy right now in the office, and this has obviously changed since before COVID and then through COVID, is that lawyers are allowed if they need to a day, one day a week to work from home.

Certainly, if something comes up, you know, it’s flexible where you could work from home more than one day. But on the other hand, when you are in

The office, and you’re surrounded by, like I am, really smart lawyers, many of whom are women, but also many of the men fall into this category too, who are parents and who are, you know, going through different things on their cases, and you can see and interact with people.

There are these just little micro interactions that occur when you’re in an office setting that are kind of important to both your morale and also just your development, because someone comes into my office because I’m here and starts talking about a case, and maybe I’ve had this exact case or I have a brief or something like that.

If we’re sitting at home and we’re independently working, and I don’t have an occasion to see that particular person, then, you know, that interaction doesn’t happen.

So I do feel that it is important to be in the office and as a managing person. Partner, obviously, even if I don’t have anything that takes me to the office, like port or a deposition, just being here and being a resource is important.

So while, you know, flexibility and the ability for, you know, women to be able to, you know, fulfill their second role or their second job as moms is important, it’s also important to be around to support each other and to see each other and to have those interactions.

Lindsey:

Well, and it’s fulfilling to have those interactions. So I I find that when I’m talking with my colleagues, and there’s a very different atmosphere in person, or when we are, you know, on Zoom, because we are all remote, but having that face to face interaction, or sometimes my business partner, Len and I will just have Zoom on and we’ll be working and just be like, Oh, well, yeah, did you see this or that, and then be working on something else.

But just having that accessibility fosters conversations and creativity. That you wouldn’t necessarily have if you are separated and isolated at home.

It feels almost like an intrusion if you are pinging somebody who is at their house. It’s like you’re going and knocking on their door as opposed to being in the same bubble together.

So I absolutely support, especially within law firms, being able to collaborate and get together when it’s for the benefit of your clients and for the benefit of the growth of your law firm.

So that’s an excellent point there. And then having that camaraderie, having the other women and men who are parents who are kind of in the same boat as they’re trying to navigate parenthood as well as being legal professionals.

There are tips and tricks beyond just what’s going on with these cases. It’s, okay, well, how am I going to be intentional about making sure that I have time for the baseball game and to make sure that I have time with my spouse and have time set aside to…

Do right by my cases. So having that intentionality. And yes, let’s talk about work-life balance. How do you handle the expectations of working those long hours while also handling the responsibilities of being a mother and a spouse and all of these different things?

What do you do to make sure that you are structuring your time appropriately, both to make sure that you have the hours in for each segment of your life, but also for your mental health?

Margaret:

Sure. Well, I think, you know, I hate to say it, but there is a misconception about work-life balance. I happen to think that if you like what you’re doing and you’re passionate about what you’re doing and it is a part of your identity and you like going to work, that I think you feel less, I don’t know if I say guilty or, if I would say, you don’t think about a

Work-life balance is quite as much as if you don’t like your job, it doesn’t matter if you’re there for eight hours or like 14, right?

So, you know, I like, I get up and I like coming to work. Are there times where I really wish I could prioritize something else?

Absolutely. But a lot of times I can do that. And I think it’s, I think there’s this misconception that, you know, work-life balance means like absolutes, like you only work a certain number of hours or you, you know, you leave by X time.

It’s really like a give and take. You know, if I know I’ve got a baseball game, like I told you today, and I’m going to have to brave the commute home for that, then I’ve got to get up early and like, you know, put in the work or I got to work late, you know, yesterday, or maybe I’ll have to work a little bit this weekend, or you’ve got to be willing to give and take.

And that is how I make it work. I mean, you can go to all of your kids’ events if you want to go to all of your kids’ events.

obviously, with the exception that you maybe are on trial or due in court or something. But then you’ve got to actually, on the back end, you’ve got to give some things up, right?

You know, I always say the first thing that I give up when I’m really busy at work and I want to do things with my kids is working out.

I mean, that’s important for your mental health and your physical health. But I like doing stuff with my kids.

I like what I do for work. So I’m filled with that as well. Social life, you know, the social life I engage in these days is usually going to legal events or chatting with the parents at baseball, soccer, and dance competitions.

And so, and that’s going to change, right? I mean, I’m going to miss it when it’s gone. But that’s the, you know, that’s the state of my life I’m in right now.

So, you know, the way I think you can have this work-life balance is it’s neither is going to be less demanding on you.

You’ve got to be prepared. That is still put in the work and the time and, you know, to develop your career and to help your clients.

But you can do it at non-traditional times these days with all the technological, you know, tools that we have.

It’s just, you got to be willing to do it. And I think people who struggle with that concept are people who don’t understand that you’ve got to, on the back end, make sure that you keep your commitment.

You know, I think people sometimes want to, you know, they want to go to work during certain hours and then they want to take off work to attend important family or, you know, child care activities.

But then they get stressed out because they didn’t finish something at work and maybe they’re unwilling to then log back on and finish it.

And, you know, then they’re, the next day the stress builds up. And it’s not a perfect science. And of course I have, I still stress.

Struggle with it, but that’s my mentality. And so I think that helps when you come to that realization that like, you know, when they say it’s like a balance, it’s like, well, there’s always going to be your commitment that you’re going to have to make to your, your profession.

You can balance when you do that sometimes and be able to, you know, dip into everything. But obviously sacrifices have to be made somewhere.

Lindsey:

Well, and I think it goes back to a point that you had made earlier, which is you need to have the right expectations for your career.

And this is not, it’s not easy. And it’s not something that everybody can do. And you are fortunate enough to have a law firm that supports you.

You have a husband who is able to give more of his time to, to family and be the support there and be an anchor there.

And that all balances out and not everybody is able to build that kind of lifestyle. Ah, and so I think it’s important that listeners here understand that they need to have appropriate expectations and be very cognizant of what assets they do have in their life and what that allows for them to be able to do and not do.

So it’s not going to be a perfect world. And yes, you need to be able to pour from, you know, X amount from a certain cup.

But if you don’t have those cups there, then sacrifices are going to have to be made. And a lot of times, historically, it’s been women who have had to make the sacrifice of their careers to stay home and fulfill that child development role.

And it has turned the personal injury world, especially because of trial, into very much a boys club for a very long time.

And men have dominated that field. And as more women are starting to come into this field, it’s important to recognize.

Their contributions and the sacrifices that they make. And they bring a skill set and unique qualities that are unique and special.

So can you talk to me a little bit about your take on the unique qualities that women bring to the personal injury field?

Margaret:

Sure. And, you know, this is a conversation. So something you said kind of resonated with me. I feel like a little bit like I’m talking right now, like, oh, I’ve got it all under control.

And, you know, it’s so I just do what I have to do. I mean, there are days where I am disappointing everyone in my life, my family, my friends, my co-workers, like, make no mistake about it.

But I know that. And like you said, there’s expectations, right? Like, I know that that’s to happen. And so do I like it?

Does it make me feel good? No, of course not. But I know, like, we’ll move. And, you know, the next day we’ll be better.

And so on that note, I think along the lines of kind of transitioning from this work-life balance, which I’m putting in quotes for those who can’t see us, and the unique qualities that women bring, I think it’s interesting that generationally, I think there’s a little bit of a shift.

I know that a lot of the men that I work with who, you know, have young kids or who have just gone through, you know, their first delivery or, you know, their wives are pregnant, men do a lot more these days.

And there is more of a sharing of the, you know, household responsibilities. And so that certainly is helpful. And also, it is kind of a little, a little bit even the playing field in that, you know, some of the younger men that I work with, Thank Thank

They’ve got to go to child care obligations, and they’ve got to say they can’t do certain things because, you know, wife is at a business meeting, or they’ve got to be home for the kids, too.

So I think, you know, that has leveled the playing field, just some societal changes. But anyhow, I think it is important to have women at your firm.

I mean, first of all, a lot of personal injury clients are women. My firm happens to handle a lot of areas where I think are more, like, women-dominated in terms of the victims and even the plaintiffs.

So we do a huge practice of birth injury. So obviously, we’ve got women who, you know, have gone through the pregnancy, labor and delivery, and something’s gone wrong.

And now they’re mothers with disabled children. I’m fortunate that I don’t have disabled children, but I’m a mom. And so I certainly have that empathy gone through the labor process.

I know the right questions to ask. We also handle a lot of nursing home abuse and neglect cases, and I’m sure it won’t be a surprise to you that in a lot of these situations, the women are the caregivers for their elderly parents or the point people, and so they’re the ones who call when something goes wrong, or they’re the ones who have the most knowledge about what was going on at the nursing home.

So having women be able to talk to women who have gone through the same thing, that’s important. There’s also having a woman in a courtroom, right?

I think that most law firms these days recognize that having a woman on your team is important for a number of reasons.

We may notice something about jurors that the men don’t. What I’ve noticed in a lot of courtrooms that I’ve been in where there are women who are moms is that of have have Thank

We tend to play kind of like the mom for the courtroom, right? So it’s like, you know, if a juror looks like they need to go to the bathroom, maybe we’ll ask the judge for a bathroom break, or, you know, someone is raising their hand, but everyone else is too busy to see it, you know, we can call that out.

And, you know, just, there’s something about having like a woman in charge of your trial team, just making sure that everyone is taken care of, you know, people are fed, people, you know, know their responsibilities, if someone’s having a bad day.

Now, on the other hand, think about how much mental work that actually takes, right? And if you’re doing that, and you’re also in a courtroom, and you’re trying to, you know, cross-examine witnesses, or give your opening statement, or make arguments to the judge, that is a lot going on.

So just the kinds of skills that women bring into the courtroom. are just so multifaceted. And it’s hard because it’s hard to turn off, you know, your mom hat when you’re in there and you see that someone’s got like a string on their dress and you want to brush it off or whatever it is.

But, you know, I happen to think that like sometimes that may score some points with the jury, right? And of course, the juries these days are comprised, you know, typically equally, if not more of women.

Now, on the other hand, there are some who believe that women are each other’s harshest critics. So that brings up some interesting things about, you know, you’re always being watched in the courtroom, what you wear, how you do your hair, you know, your makeup, shoes.

And, you know, that’s another whole aspect that you’ve got to really be concerned with when you’re trying a case and you’re in front of a jury and a judge and you’re a woman.

People like it or not, for some, they want to know what you’re going to wear the next day. I mean, that’s just, like, what I’ve learned from talking to juries after, you know, having a case is that there are some people who talk about that in deliberation.

Lindsey:

Well, and it’s funny that you mentioned that. We did a podcast a couple years back on what to wear to court, and that made for a really interesting episode.

And it is, women’s fashion is much more of a consideration because nobody really cares what color tie Joe is going to be wearing to court the next day.

But if there’s a short skirt or a shortcut blouse or, you know, what color, what fit, what cut, like, all of those things are very intentional in women’s fashion and are built to be noticed.

So it is, it brings a very different dynamic, um, where you’re not just an attorney, but you’re also a model and you’re a mom and you’re taking care of all of these different things.

And it’s trying to juggle and balance all of this while trying to, you know, sway. Sway a jury, know, convince a jury and empathize with them and bring all of these pieces together for your case.

It goes so much further beyond the actual components of the case itself. So it clearly, clearly a struggle, but, you know, the right attorneys, right women in these roles can, can really bring a very powerful force when they are managing it appropriately and using all of these pieces to their advantage.

And so clearly when, when trying a case, there are these different skills and unique values that women bring to that.

But did you find ever in the marketing or in when you are vetting a prospective client that prospective clients are drawn more to you because you are a woman?

Margaret:

Yes, I definitely have experienced that. I mean, I’ve also been on kind of like the, the opposite of end of end of that particular.

Particularly in the beginning of my career. You know, the other day I had someone who called me and said they looked up my profile online and I was wearing pearls.

And, you know, for some reason that just resonated with them and they like thought they could trust me and they wanted to hire me.

And, you know, we do also handle a lot of sensitive topics. We handle a lot of abuse or assault cases in, like, for example, massage facilities.

And a lot of times people will call and say they want to speak to a woman, you know, at least initially.

And then I’ve also had moments in my career, I’ll tell you, granted they were earlier, but I wouldn’t be surprised, honestly, like, if they still crop up, even as I established myself and I’m a managing partner here, where I’ve said I need to bring in, like, the great-haired male.

I need them. To hear exactly what I’m saying from this guy to try to see if I can, you know, get them to understand what we think they should do in a, you know, decision making in a case.

In early in my career, I would be called actually to sign up cases by some of my male colleagues.

Like, we want you to go out. We think, you know, we think that you’ll resonate with them. And, you know, like, we think a woman needs to be the one to sell them and or, you know, to partner up with someone else who’s going out.

So, yeah, I mean, I think more and more, especially with what I do, because, you know, we deal in this human misery and suffering.

People understand the assets that women bring to the cases and, you know, to the legal team.

Lindsey:

Well, and it’s undeniable. think women definitely bring empathy. They bring the ability to multitask. They. The ability to be a part of, to relate with a prospective client or an existing client on a situation that sometimes a man just can’t, especially when it comes to birth injury or it comes to something that deals with female anatomy that a man just can’t necessarily relate to.

So having a woman on the team, being in a leadership role in the team is a huge asset. And as we leverage the strengths of the female attorneys, it’s also important to build supports for them.

So what can law firms do to support their female employees?

Margaret:

So one of the things that, you know, I’ve obviously talked about the, just kind of giving you the flexibility for women to like stay in the profession and stay in this role, which is giving flexibility when you’re not on trial, right?

I mean, because you know, there’s going to be zero flexibility when you’re on trial. So doing that. Fathom encouraging women to join groups of women that are supporting each other in the same roles.

I think marketing your women, right? Because we talked about the fact that there are clients who are looking for women or, you know, who want to see some diversity when they look at what the law firm’s bringing.

My law firm has been great about doing that. mean, first of all, just for me personally, know, Steve Levin, the founder of the firm, kind of, and I had a talk when I was, when I had proven myself capable to him, you know, as a lawyer and someone he wanted to work with, about, you know, trying to take advantage of my role as one of the few young women that were, you know, trying cases and getting results in this industry.

So, you know, giving them opportunities to speak at conferences, to You know, network with judges and other women lawyers to handle big cases, to be on, you know, winning teams and then to give them the credit when they’re on these winning teams that allows them to continue to market themselves.

So that’s, you know, obviously very important. I’ll say this as someone who I can say maybe now is like older and wiser, but I definitely got bullied when I was a younger female in the legal profession.

And I remember a couple of times having to like call in big brother, call in dad, and have them come and sit in a deposition or go to court with me and kind of like fend off some of the more aggressive lawyers who were maybe taking advantage of my youth and, you know, that I was a woman and my blonde hair.

And I do that now for some of the younger. Women. I have male partners who have called up men from other firms who are opposite and said, why are you picking on the young women at our firm?

You know, like we’ve gotten a lot of reports of you, you know, obstructing depositions or, you know, being nasty and it’s not happening with me.

So, like, what gives? And just kind of like making sure that, you know, we’re protected a little bit. Now, you know, I don’t really need protection anymore, but it’s really challenging being the young female lawyer in this room of, you know, men who have been doing it for, you know, 30 years, you know, who think they need to tell you how it is.

Luckily, like that kind of thing for me just kind of inspires me more to, like, be better and be more prepared and just stand my ground.

But it’s not that easy for everyone. So that kind of support is important too.

Lindsey:

Absolutely. Having advocates for you, mean, and regardless of gender or age or anything, but having a team that really advocates for a level playing field for all of the attorneys to be able to go do their job, get the depositions, and build the cases that are going to be serving their clients.

That is 1000% the right place to start and the right thing to do. Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

I really appreciate the insights that you had to share.

Margaret:

Yeah, it was my pleasure. I’d love to come back if you’ve got a new topic for me.

Lindsey:

Absolutely. We’d love to have you back sometime.

Margaret:

All right. Thanks, Lindsey.

Adrianos did not initially plan to become a lawyer, but after finishing law school, he decided to start his own practice rather than work for someone else. He met a mentor who took him under his wing and encouraged him to take on a car accident case, which ended up being a turning point where Adrianos gained trial experience and won an $80,000 verdict. This experience convinced Adrianos that he could succeed as a personal injury attorney.

Adrianos decided to focus his practice on serving the Brazilian and Portuguese community in Los Angeles, as he saw a need that was not being met. His own family’s experience immigrating to the US and facing challenges like language barriers and lack of support networks inspired him to help this underserved population. Adrianos works to build trust, provide education, and offer extra support services to his clients from this community.

Visit Law Offices of Adrianos Facchetti here: https://facchettilaw.com/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Lindsey:

Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.

I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. Some of my favorite episodes are when we dive into the stories of professionals making a real impact in their communities.

Today’s guest is doing just that, and in a way that is both personal and powerful. Adrianos Facchetti: is not your average personal injury attorney.

Based in Los Angeles, he’s built a thriving practice by serving a very specific community, Brazilian and Portuguese immigrants. And the reason?

It’s deeply rooted in his own story, which gives him a rare and authentic cultural connection to the people he now advocates for in court.

From overcoming language barriers to navigating the complex U.S. legal system. problem… Here He’s made it his mission to protect and empower those who often feel overlooked or misunderstood.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Adrianos.

Adrianos Facchetti:

Glad to be here.

Lindsey:

Well, tell us a little bit about your origin story and how you got into law.

Adrianos Facchetti:

So it wasn’t like I was always planning on being a lawyer. In fact, when I had gone to law school, was probably the, I met like one lawyer until that point.

But it was sort of a default position. I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do, and I wanted to sort of keep my options open.

Then when I finished law school, just because of my background, my dad had started his own businesses. My brother started his own businesses.

I think we were all just too stubborn to work for somebody else that would have made a horrible employee.

And so I knew I wanted to start my own thing. And so when I started out, I had no connections, nothing.

My parents had come from Brazil and Argentina. And so it wasn’t like I had, you know, a silver spoon.

My mouth or any kind of connections. And then I figured out that I needed to get business, right? And so I had met a mentor about two years in, and I had no idea what I was doing.

And he said to me, look, I’m going to sort of take you under my wing. I’m going to teach you what to do.

I said, great. And we started doing kind of litigation. So real estate litigation, business litigation, whatever you can think of.

And then one day, he says to me, we’re going to do a car accident case. And I said, I’m not sure I want to do that, George.

And he says, we are going to do it. So I said, okay, fine. So long story short, we’re working on this case, and we were like the fourth attorneys in the case, so it’s not a good case.

And he says the policy limits are $25,000 and the offer is $7,500. And I’m calculating that that’s about 200 bucks in my pocket, which was like a million dollars for me.

I needed the money badly. said, yeah. He says, no, we’re going to go to trial. So I said, as long as you do the entire trial, I’m totally fine with it.

He said, don’t worry. He was like in his mid-70s. So we get to trial and all of a sudden, you know, it’s not going well.

He’s a little too old, a little too long in the tooth. And he turns to me and says, you know, I think trial is a young man’s game, Adrianos.

I want you to start doing stuff in the trial. I said, George, I can’t do it. He says, if you don’t do it, I never want to see your face again.

And so I got thrown into the deep end. And so I did it. Same thing with the closing argument.

He has me do the closing argument. I do it as best as I can. And then after the closing argument, we’re sitting in the hallway and the defense attorney turns to me and says, know, Adrianos, that was the best closing argument I’ve ever seen.

And I looked at him because I thought he was hitting on me or something. I could not believe that this was a real compliment.

And I said, okay. And then whatever. So we go in front of the jury and the jury reads the verdict.

And we got an $80,000 verdict. So my thought was, you know, maybe I can actually do this. And that’s how I started.

And just little by little, just grinding, trying to get more business and trying to get a reputation in the personal injury community.

Lindsey:

Well, and that’s fantastic. mean, and so many attorneys start out because their family is full of lawyers, and they’ve had this experience growing up, and like, it’s just expected of them to go through this path.

So it’s always refreshing to hear from somebody who didn’t grow up dreaming of being an attorney or who didn’t have those built in mentors in life.

And you don’t necessarily need to know everything or be inundated with it, you know, when you’re a kid, so long as you know who to ask.

And so having that mentor relationship was clearly, you know, fundamental in your success and to where you are now.

And so you’re in Los Angeles, and which, as everybody knows, is a fiercely competitive market. But talk to us about how you have niched down your practice and a little bit about your cultural background and how that influences the cases that are naturally drawn to you now.

Adrianos Facchetti:

So growing up as a kid, I saw how difficult it was for my parents to sort of, you know, get used to the culture here, to make a living.

Obviously, they were from different countries, didn’t speak the language initially, but they did a lot to sort of educate themselves and to sort of build this amazing life, which I’m really proud of them for doing that.

And, you know, a few years ago, unfortunately, three or four years ago, my mom had Alzheimer’s and passed away.

And so I decided, how do I stay connected to the culture? Like, how do I – there’s not a ton of Brazilians in California.

And so I thought, you know, maybe I can help the community. So I went around to all the different Brazilian lawyers and I said, who’s the guy or gal who does personal injuries?

Right. They all looked at me and said, it’s going to be you. And I said, that can’t be true.

Either there’s no market or there’s just nobody doing it. So I started asking other attorneys and they kept on saying the same thing.

And so I said, you know what, maybe I should get into this market, see if I can help this community.

And I started doing that. And so once I got into the community, I realized how much of a need there was for somebody who actually spoke Portuguese.

I’m a dual citizen Brazilian. I was raised in L.A. But I started really focusing on that segment of the population.

And it’s really paid dividends for me.

Lindsey:

That’s fantastic. So how does this inform your marketing efforts?

Adrianos Facchetti:

So how do you get connected in the community? So a couple of different ways that I get connected with the community is, like I said, I’ve met other pillars of the Portuguese community, Brazilian community.

I’ve met with other attorneys, gotten to… Create wonderful relationships with them. And honestly, I would do it for free, just because it keeps me connected to the culture.

But it’s sort of impacted how I do marketing in general, because I try to do marketing that’s something that’s fun for me.

I’ve learned that it’s not fun, you’re not going to do it. And even if you do do it, it’s not going to work, people are going to see right through it.

So if I’m having a meeting like this one, my thought is, what’s one interesting thing I can learn about the other person?

That’s kind of how I look at things. And so getting back to the marketing. So what I do is, I get involved in Facebook communities, where people are asking questions, they have problems.

Every once in a while, I’ll, you know, make comments on certain posts. It’s not, I’m not selling anything. I’m just trying to be helpful.

And I’m also getting a pulse on what’s important to them. Right? How do I get to sort of the mind of the person who I want to help?

And then eventually, like, you know, Every once in a while, once a week or so, I might do something that’s more educational with a call to action at the end of the post.

And so a couple of those things, not a lot of work, maybe like half an hour a week in these Facebook groups.

It’s just about identifying those groups and building relationships with the owners of those groups so that they’re comfortable that you’re a legitimate business owner that can actually help.

Because the real problem, Lindsey, is that there’s a lot of, unfortunately, non-attorneys who give or try to give advice to these vulnerable populations.

And I’ve seen it so many times, especially for immigration law, where they will take advantage of people. And the sad part is, and I’ve talked to so many people, they’ve gotten in an auto accident, Brazilians, and they get a serious injury, like a back injury where they needed a surgery.

And they just didn’t even know they had any legal rights. Number one, because they’re deathly afraid that if they make a claim…

And they just are not aware that this actually exists as a legal right because it doesn’t exist in their country.

So it’s about educating them. It’s about being involved in the community. And it’s about just doing something where I’m going to feel good at the end of the day.

Lindsey:

And I love that use of social media, getting involved in these groups. And so we talked to so many attorneys who are like, I want to start a social media campaign and put out these ads and do this and that.

And a lot of times, the intent is good, but it’s kind of missing the mark and not going to be generating any leads and really not going be making a connection with anybody because nobody goes to Facebook to see top 10 things not to do after a car accident.

But if somebody is going to one of these forums, and I see this a lot with the Apex Carry Moms group here.

Interest and specific questions. can keep a beat on what is important within a specific community, but also just be able to provide some helpful information and yeah, maybe, you know, get your name out there as a trusted resource.

So I think that that’s a really great way to use social media and you’re going about that in the way that I would absolutely recommend.

So you talked a little bit about this educational component where these people, these communities might not understand that they have protected rights, even if they’re not citizens and they’re coming from backgrounds where this isn’t something that they’re super familiar with.

What are some of the other unique challenges that Brazilian Portuguese immigrants face when dealing with personal injury cases here in the United States?

Adrianos Facchetti:

So a lot of them, like I said, I think the key… One is that they don’t have an understanding of how the legal process works at all.

In their country, what they would say is that the legal process is broken and doesn’t work at all. And so for them, it’s usually like, do you know a guy who can handle this or do something?

And it’s not always maybe the most appropriate way to do things. And so there’s not a lot of trust.

So one of the challenges that I have is sort of gaining that trust so that they can trust me to be able to actually help them and not mistreat them.

The other thing, too, that is a challenge culturally is they believe that there’s always going to be some sort of hidden charge, like someone’s going to charge them for something.

And believe it or not, sometimes people, there’s sort of that adage that if it’s, you know, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

And so when I say, you know, there’s no upfront charge, it’s a contingency fee, you would think that it would lower their sense of risk, but sometimes they see that as being suspicious.

And so for me, it’s just. So generally, a lot of education. Also, the big challenge, too, is that they don’t have a lot of personal networks here.

So let’s say, for example, you were to have a surgery or get an issue or some sort of injury.

You probably have family or friends here in your community who can actually help you for a couple of days while you’re in bed recovering from a procedure.

But they don’t have personal networks. And so what do you do if you’re driving Uber all day to make money and you’ve got to drive?

And if you don’t drive, you don’t make money. So that’s one of the big issues that I see is, number one, education.

And number two, the lack of these personal networks that can help them get the adequate medical care that they need.

And so we do certain things in our office to give them that opportunity. We’ll even send someone to go help them out sometimes on high-value cases.

They can go and get a nurse for a day or two, only in the highest-value cases, but we can do that in some cases.

And we’ll We’re always looking for ways to give this unreasonable client service, which is one thing that I think distinguishes our firm from others.

Lindsey:

And that’s amazing that you are able to offer that support, especially for those who are severely injured and really need the most help getting back on their feet or getting the medical care that you need.

And do you find any issues during the legal process itself with insurance companies or any language barrier issues when it comes to helping this community?

Adrianos Facchetti:

Yeah, there’s definitely, since there’s probably only about 200,000 or 300,000 Brazilians in California, believe it or not, sometimes we have just sort of practical issues in terms of translation.

So if I’ve got to get a, you know, person to translate for a deposition, that can be a little bit challenging.

If I need a recorded statement, which we do occasionally, that can be a challenge to find that. And a person who actually speaks Portuguese and the dialect and version of Portuguese, I would do it myself, but I’m not certified and it’s probably not a good idea to do it.

But that is a challenge. I mean, it is like, I think the eighth most popular language in the world.

And so it shouldn’t be that hard. But there are certain challenges with it. Of course, if you go to trial, that’s a whole nother interesting set of issues.

But it’s not a big deal. I mean, California, it’s a very diverse state. And so we have a lot of huge Hispanic population.

I also help that population as well. So Spanish and Portuguese. We have ways to address all these issues. You know, I think the biggest challenge is we don’t have enough medical providers that can speak the language.

But the interesting thing is with technology and AI, some of my providers have iPads. And so they’ll bring the iPad into the room.

And I only work with providers that can actually do this. And they’ll have the iPad in there and it’s simultaneous translation.

So if it’s necessary, we can do that to use technology. We try to use everything at our disposal to create like a really good experience for our clients.

Lindsey:

That’s fantastic. And having that technology now, especially within the last three to five years, has been an absolute game changer for attorneys as well as for the clients, medical providers, and just helping to streamline that process.

So I’m so glad that that’s in place and being used. So let’s talk about cases involving undocumented clients. What should they know about their rights in terms of a personal injury situation?

I know you brought up the fact that there’s a lot of nervousness about filing a claim if somebody isn’t a U.S.

citizen, especially, or if they’re undocumented or any of these issues.

Adrianos Facchetti:

What, let’s look at Let’s dive into that a little bit. So 100%, one of the biggest concerns for people who are immigrants, especially those who don’t have papers or undocumented, is they’re worried that either they’re going to get caught or something if they make their – assert their legal claims in a personal injury case.

And it absolutely is not the case. It will not happen. In fact, there was a law that changed in California where if you made a – typically, the rule was if you made a loss of earnings claim, the defense counsel would force you to get information about their sort of status.

And now there’s a new evidence code which says it’s irrelevant and lasts, I think, a few years. So there have been additional protections in California, but I get it.

The sort of national environment, whatever your politics, there is more of a sense of fear that there will be some sort of retribution.

And I can tell and assure clients every single day that it will not affect your ongoing immigration status whatsoever.

And the federal government’s not going to pop out of the bushes. If you are making a claim, it’s just not going to happen.

The only thing you’re doing by not making a claim is lining the pockets of the insurance companies.

Lindsey:

Yes, and we definitely don’t need to see that happening any more than it already is. Exactly. So let’s just give me a few more seconds and talk to me about what advice you would give to other lawyers who are considering a culturally focused niche practice.

Adrianos Facchetti:

So number one, has to be authentic to you, has to be real. And I think number two, has to be something you really love and enjoy.

At the end of the day, it is work. And for me, look, I’m the type of guy that says TGIM, not TGIF.

And then my team, it’s a hard eye roll, but I’m excited on Sunday night to get into work. And I know not everybody’s like that, but if you’re trying to get into a new niche, I think whether that’s a new practice.

Area of law, or it’s helping a specific group. could be people who like to play pickleball, whatever. I would start with that first.

What do you love doing? What do you do that doesn’t feel like work? Maybe you’re a gamer. So get into a Facebook group.

So one, do what you love doing anyway and would do for free. And then get into groups there because it won’t feel like marketing.

It’ll feel like play, like fun. And so I think that’s the biggest piece of advice. Don’t think first, how do I make money?

Think about how can I get involved in a group that I already like being involved in and doing? Could be a church, whatever it is.

And then how can I max out and just go a thousand percent in that and spend most of my time doing that?

And then the money will come. It’ll take a while, but it’ll absolutely work. And then hopefully you’ll be a TGIM person like me.

Lindsey:

And if you’re going to be spending eight, 10, 12. 12 plus hours a day working, you may as well enjoy it.

Clearly, as attorneys and in this profession, we sacrifice a lot of our time and that we need to make sure that we are benefiting both financially, but also just in terms of life enjoyment out of the time that we’re putting in.

So I think that’s a great piece of advice is find a niche that you’re passionate about, that’s authentic to you, that you enjoy, that you don’t mind putting a thousand percent in.

Adrianos Facchetti:

Right? And it’s common sense, right? But for most people, we forget. We’re so busy. We’re worried about helping our teammates out, helping our family members out, our kids.

And then we think, okay, how do make more money this year? And I think if you focus on what’s going to make you happy or at least what you – at a minimum, what you can tolerate, that’s going be much better than saying, you know what?

I’ve got to go to the local bar association and meet Sam and hand out five business cards and try to get a few more cases from him.

That’s the absolute Wrong way. that’s how I started. But I had to learn everything the hard way because just that’s the way it is.

Lindsey:

And well, we appreciate the lessons that you have shared with us so that we are not wasting time learning things the hard way.

Adrianos Facchetti:

So thank you so much, Adrianos. I really appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us today. Yeah.

Thanks so much.

Personal Injury Attorney Josh Branch of The Law Offices of Joshua W. Branch joins us for Personal Injury Marketing Minute podcast #107 to discuss getting into the field to make a difference.

Josh is driven to a life of service through the practice of personal injury law.

Visit Josh online here: https://www.thegeorgiainjuryattorney.com/.

Visit Extra Special People, Inc here: https://www.cityofwatkinsville.com/185/ESP.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Lindsey:

Welcome to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield.

Even though there are some bad players in the personal injury world who are more interested in profit than people, most personal injury lawyers get into the field because they want to make a difference.

Josh Branch of Josh Branch Law in Georgia is one such lawyer who is driven to a life of service through the practice of personal injury law.

Thank you so much for joining us today, Josh.

Josh Branch:

Thank you for having me, Lindsey.

Lindsey:

Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your practice.

Josh Branch:

A little bit about myself, we have a current operation or base. In Athens, Georgia, that’s the primary location, the law office of Joshua Branch.

We also have satellite offices in Atlanta and on the Georgia coast where you accept cases throughout Georgia and in the Florida accident, licensed to practice in Florida as well.

About me, that’s as far as wide of a question as we can go. It’s the worst question I could possibly ask.

No, no, no, it’s fine. It’s absolutely fine. To kind of piggyback on the topic, I have been around law since the time I was 15 or 16.

My church league basketball coach was a lawyer, and he said, you argue so much. You’re going to become a lawyer.

And everybody else in my family and friends said the same thing. I think I was a little bit apprehensive of doing what everybody else already foretold as my future.

But actually, they were right. And so I’m very blessed to be in this position and helping others.

Lindsey:

I mean, to be able to… To argue, you know, when you’re a kid, it can drive everybody else crazy.

But if you can harness that energy for good and put it to the benefit of others, then that turns into a superpower.

I’ll agree. So, I mean, clearly you loved to argue when you were a kid and you went down this path.

But why did you want to become a personal injury lawyer at the end of your educational career?

Josh Branch:

It’s a great question. Once I finally decided I did want to go to law school, I initially thought I wanted to go into environmental law.

That was my pursuit when I entered into law school. However, as much as I got into it, more I realized that I’m not, and this is most things about me, I’m not on the extreme on either side.

So in environmental law, I didn’t see myself working for a large oil company. And also at same time, I didn’t see myself, you know, working for Greenpeace.

They both have places in this world. And, you I didn’t feel my heart for myself one way or the other.

I worked for an entertainment lawyer. I was in law school. It great. We had incredible experiences. I helped put on a seminar at the Russian Consulate in Manhattan in New York.

Great experience. Got to meet a lot of A&R reps and reps from different bands and things of that sort.

But when it really came down to tracking towards what I want to do the rest of my life, there is a proverbial David versus Goliath day in, day out when you deal with injured victims dealing with insurance companies.

And even though insurance companies and their complete wherewithal and financial backing of which no individual really has outside of a few on the top of the Forbes list, they need help.

And the course interest companies. We’ve done a really good job of influencing politicians to make sure that they’re able to continue along the lines of massive profits.

And I’m all for capitalism, but I’m also for fairness. And I bring that up because if you go into a trial where you see someone has caused a car wreck, it’s the easiest example.

Well, 99.9% of the time, the insurance company behind the individual is the one who’s calling the shots. Even though the style of case might be Jane Doe versus John Smith, it’s John Smith’s insurance company that’s going ahead and dictating the terms or trying to dictate the terms.

And so knowing this behind the scenes, David and Goliath battle is always going on and you need, these people need help.

And so I found myself really gravitating towards that. And the more I do it, the more I just feel so grateful for the opportunity to help these people because I’ve got a wonderful team.

you. you. So probably the best team I’ve had ever. And I’ve been practicing for 20 years, as evidenced by the great starting to come in a little bit here and there.

But at the same time, wonderful team and we’ll make a difference in people’s lives. And it really is gratifying, even if it does have a tendency to take a toll at times.

Lindsey:

Well, and I think it goes back to a point that you made a little bit earlier where you’re not, you know, an extreme person.

Like you’re not on the Greenpeace side. You’re not on the big oil company side. And when it comes to personal injury, anybody could be injured.

And so it doesn’t cater to, you know, one demographic or another, one extreme or another. It really opens itself up to help anybody and everybody who could land themselves in a bad situation and where the outcome of their lives and their ability to get back on their feet is dictated by the giant insurance company.

And so to have an advocate step in is a powerful force. And I think that that is a great.

Great role to serve in. And so kind of getting back to the topic of the podcast here, what ways do you see a life as a personal injury lawyer as a form of public service?

Josh Branch:

Great question, Lindsey. And the way I look at it is the fact that everybody who comes to our doors at the office or reaches out to us, they’re in dire help.

They really are. We’re very selective with the cases we take, and we’re very blessed to have people who need our help in these situations.

And it truly feels like a public service in the fact that we’ve seen so many people go through, hopefully, what’s the roughest time of their lives.

I’m thinking of one client in the past. He was a younger gentleman and younger as in mid-20s. He was involved in a horrible, horrible car crash.

And we actually, a former judge out of Atlanta, He referred us to the case, and before I even had a chance to meet him, he had sent pictures, and this is kind of a graphic description, but he was in the hospital bed, and at that time, around the lower part of his ribcage towards the upper abdomen, there was a laceration so large that it just opened up his stomach to where it was completely open, and he was conscious.

This is how they had to hold him for a while. His girlfriend’s by his side. He mentally had told me at times that he was thinking he was going to die, and all of these thoughts and these emotions were flooding through this young man’s head, and bear in mind, he did nothing wrong, you know?

He did nothing wrong, and so we were able to ensure that he’s gotten the medical treatment he needed and saw the doctors he needed, and as time progressed, you know, he literally

He figuratively got back on his feet again, and it’s the most wonderful thing to see that. And thankfully, the insurance coverage that was available for his case was sufficient in terms of us being able to really procure incredible resolution for him that has absolutely changed his life.

He now has what he calls his dream home. He was able to buy a vehicle for his mother and for himself and has money set up to reach through annuities and things of that sort.

And he is just the happiest, lucky fellow in the world, and he’ll reach out at times. He still has my personal cell phone.

He’ll reach out at times, and it’s encouraging to hear that he’s doing so well. And it’s also just so nice to know that I was at least some piece of his life puzzle in helping guiding him through.

you. And so it means a lot. And I think for everybody, I can speak for everybody on the team, that it means a lot to all of us to be able to see that, to see that when somebody comes to us in their worst moment, that we’re able to help them through, get them through.

And when they’re on the other side, they can just focus on the future because better days are ahead.

Lindsey:

Well, and clearly it meant the world to him to not just have somebody advocating for the dollar signs. He knew that you guys were in this court and were supporting him both legally as well as making sure that he’s going to have the best financial outcome.

But also there’s a giant emotional component that personal injury lawyers, that good personal injury lawyers have to shoulder as they’re working through the process and just saying, have faith that we’re going to get to the other side of this.

You’re going to be able to financially recover. You’re going to be able to physically recover. And here I am to help you as, you know, we build a support team as you emotionally.

And having all of those pillars working together is truly the support that personal injury lawyers who are dedicated to a life of service can give someone as they are making that transition in this chapter of their lives.

And so I love hearing those stories where you’re able to support somebody throughout, and yeah, I hate the word journey, but throughout that journey.

And so clearly going through this and being that shoulder and providing the hours of support that you do and the work that you do can be, you know, emotionally supportive for them.

But I would imagine that being emotionally draining and taxing on you as a person.

Josh Branch:

So what are some of the emotional challenges that you face as an advocate for these victims? Great question, Lindsey.

And to even harken back just a moment to what you’re saying, I do believe that, you know, people have a visceral sensation about when people are full of it.

Or people actually have genuine concern. And I was told earlier in my career, you know, you get too emotionally invested in your clients.

And I totally disagree with that. I do look at my clients as like an extension of family. We want nothing but the best for them.

And it does in turn, it can have an emotionally draining aspect without a doubt. But I found personally, to decompress, I like going on long walks, preferably by a beach.

But I’m doing this from Athens, Georgia, and there’s no beaches very close. But there’s still some beautiful places to go for long walks, trying to work out, to spend time with family and friends.

I think it really does help that.

Lindsey:

And that is so important. And yeah, there’s the metaphor of you can’t pour from an empty cup. And so I always encourage the personal injury attorneys that I talk to and work with to make sure that they are taking care of themselves, because that’s the best way that they can support the clients that they are helping.

So I think that that’s, that’s great that you found a good outlet to emotionally recover as you are being an emotional support for everybody else that you’re, you’re serving.

And clearly with that comes some sacrifices too, that you have to make. So what are some of the things that you challenge, that you struggle with or have to be intentional about as you can come upon, you know, sacrifices in terms of time and energy that you’re devoting to your cases?

Josh Branch:

It makes me chuckle. You probably saw the smile on my face as you were asking that because I laugh because people always talk about striking nice work-life balance.

To me, that’s silly. There is no work-life balance. It’s work is at the top tier and the time that’s afforded afterwards is the time that’s afforded.

And it’s probably not healthy. But at the same time too, think as we were talking about, these people had decided to choose me and my firm.

And it’s absolutely not. And I’m never going to let that. And so whether that means working weekends, evenings, holidays, I’m okay with that.

You know, it’s, I do believe we all have grand designs and purpose on this earth. And I really feel like I’ve found my niche.

And so to be able to find your stride and helping people in doing these things, in the grand scheme, it seems like a very small sacrifice.

And, but yeah, the work-life balance, probably for most people looking at my life objectively, like, okay, you got to push back a little bit more.

And perhaps I will at some point in time, but it won’t be anytime soon.

Lindsey:

But right now is the time of your life where you really feel calling to dedicate yourself to helping others, you know, get back to their lives.

And that’s something that you truly, clearly feel very passionate about.

Josh Branch:

I do, if I could just jump in briefly. Yeah. don’t want to hijack the moment, but. Something about helping others that I was thinking about, that my grandmother used to always say, she was a very wise, wise person.

But when anybody in my family would feel distraught or a little bit down, she would sympathize. But she would also say, go find somebody that needs help and help them.

Lindsey:

Yeah.

Josh Branch:

Get outside of your own head. Go help somebody. And one, think it’s great in the fact that it shifts you outside of the inward focus about helping others.

I think also, too, it shifts perspective on life and going back to the theme of this podcast about being able to serve others and being there for others.

I feel like all of us, I think, have that calling within us. think, honestly, all of us feel better when we do.

Lindsey:

I absolutely agree. And so are there any ways that you are engaged in external service through outreach or education or pro bono work for your practice?

Josh Branch:

We do. We do find ourselves doing pro bono cases every now and again. We are deeply engaged with one local, they’re growing, so thankfully they’re more than local now, an organization called Extra Special People, they go by ESP.

Anybody who’s listening to this, I hope you check them out. They are such an uplifting, outstanding organization that’s designed to help boys and girls and men and women who have special needs, and they provide them with community, and they provide them with activities, and they kind of give them a place to where they can call their own.

And I think also, too, over the years, we’ve been able to, the team and I have been able to actually help and go serve food and just serve in general in addition to other financial ideas in which we’ve been able to give.

And thanks for the gift to help out. But it’s just such an amazing thing to see back to people helping out people.

And so really, really enjoy doing that. But there’s such a myriad of organizations that need all of our help.

I mean, the top of my head, I’m thinking about Habitat and food banks and all these different things that, you know, really need all of our support because they’re taking care of those people in society who need help, you know.

Lindsey:

There are so many who are marginalized or just don’t have access to what they need in life to feel like they have, you know, a life.

And so I think that that’s great to be able to give back to the community, to be able to serve others.

And there is an emotional benefit that comes from that. And it is, you know, sustaining and it’s refueling to be able to give back to others.

So what advice do you have for other lawyers who might have a calling to serve more either within their…

Josh Branch:

If anyone was asking me, whether it’s a lawyer or otherwise, I would just say, take that first step. You know, go to that meeting for that organization.

You know, whether it’s opening up your mind, your ideas, your wallet, just do something. Take that first step. I think many of us, know myself included, have good intentions at times, and then life becomes life.

The next thing you know, those good intentions go on the back burner, and then the back burner becomes non-existent.

And so I think just being intentional, being purposeful, and just moving that forward. I think it’s like most things in life.

What’s the old cliche about, you know, showing up to half the babble or something like that? It’s, I really think that’s it with everything, right?

Just going ahead and getting your foot in the door or just, you know, making sure that have time to go attend a meeting, and listen to some group and see what you think you need to help.

Lindsey:

That’s great advice. Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your passion. And for all that you do for your clients and your community, it’s been a pleasure talking with you.

Josh Branch:

Well, I really do appreciate that, Lindsey. And again, I’m Josh Branch: with the Law Offices of Joshua W. Branch.

And if anybody wants to find us, they can find us at thegeorgianjuryattorney.com.

Lindsey:

Great. Thank you so much.

Josh Branch:

Thank you, Lindsey.

Personal Injury Attorney and Harley Davidson rider Paul Hernandez discusses what it means to be known in the Virginia motorcycle community. This is an excellent episode – if you are considering a niche, listen to every minute of this podcast at least once.

We have talked about the benefits of niching down a few times before. We primarily discuss niching as a strategy to attract more clients in saturated markets. It also makes sense when you are a member of a community that is regularly at risk for catastrophic injury. This is especially true in the motorcycle riding community.

Visit Attorney Paul Hernandez here: https://www.kalfusnachman.com/attorneys/paul-r-hernandez/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

https://youtu.be/lsrcoWmAhOY

Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute, where we quickly cover the hot topics in the legal marketing world.

I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. We have talked about the benefits of niching down a few times before. We primarily discuss niching as a strategy to attract more clients in saturated markets.

It also makes sense when you’re a member of a community that is regularly at risk for catastrophic injury. This is especially true in the motorcycle riding community.

Now, every personal injury lawyer would love to have more motorcycle accident cases, but they seem impossible to regularly get through the door.

However, Paul Hernandez: of Calphus and Nackman has figured out how to become the motorcycle accident lawyer throughout Virginia. He joins us today to share his insight.

It’s on what works and what doesn’t. Thank you so much for joining us today, Paul.

Paul Hernandez:

Thank you. Appreciate you inviting me.

Lindsey:

Well, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your practice.

Paul Hernandez:

Yeah, so I’ve been practicing 30 years. It’s hard to believe that time flies so fast. We have a team of 16 lawyers here, and our staff’s about 90 people.

We started handling personal injury cases. We do personal injury. We do longshore and workers’ compensation, and we do social security disability.

But we have a special area, a special division at our firm, and that is our Law Tigers division. We’re a Law Tigers group.

We’re part of that group. But I have a specific group of people who handle all of our motorcycle crashes, and it’s a select team of people.

So if it’s an investigator, if it’s a paralegal, if it’s a lawyer, if it’s a negotiator, it doesn’t matter.

Everybody rides. Everybody’s in the community. Everybody supports the community. So, you know, what is our firm? We do handle cases.

I’m licensed in North Carolina and Virginia, and we have people licensed in Maryland and D.C. and things of that nature.

But, you know, our big part is Virginia. And by handling motorcycle cases, you know, we’ve really become experts and specialists in that field.

And everybody can’t do that. But I know we’re going to talk about that in a little while. But that’s a little bit about who Calpus Enactment is.

The firm has been around for over 45 years. So it’s a great ride, to be honest with you. I’ll be honest with you.

I love coming to work every single day.

Lindsey:

And that’s the best job to have, you know, regardless of what industry you work in, regardless of what sector, legal sector you work in.

If you are loving what you do, then you are going to be serving your clients in absolutely the best capacity.

And this is clearly a passion for you because you’re a part of the motorcycle community.

Paul Hernandez:

So the big question, the most important question. Of course, what kind of bike do you ride? And how long have you been riding?

Right. So it’s funny. said, what type of bike do you ride? What type of bike do you like to ride?

Right? So I have been riding. Oh, I know I hate to say this word, but I’ve been riding for over 40 years.

Started off on, you know, actually, I guess if you really want to go back, it started off on minibikes.

And minibike, I don’t see them anymore, to be honest with It’s just basically a lawnmower mower on a little metal, small thing, a little tire.

Lindsey:

Sounds really safe.

Paul Hernandez:

Yeah. Well, it started there. It’s funny. We would, in the wintertime, we would, of course, drag people behind it while you’re on a boogie board, you know, in the snow and whatever, just doing kids stuff, you know.

again, the type of stuff we did when we were kids, I’m surprised I’m still here. But, so, started at minibikes, went to dirt bikes, where we would, you know, the whole neighborhood would have dirt bikes.

bikes, they’re bikes, And we’d be racing around on the streets, in the yards, in the fields and stuff. And then once I became old enough to get a driver’s license, immediately got my motorcycle endorsement and started riding road bikes and sport bikes.

So currently, I’m riding a Harley-Davidson Road Glide CVO, which I love. It’s a huge bike. It’s a big bike.

I’m not the biggest guy. I’m not the tallest guy. But I love that bike. I’ve had other Harley-Davidson’s, you know, sport glides, 883s, 1200s.

Now, the smaller bikes are funner, I’ll tell you. They’re easier to maneuver. But the big bikes, you feel a lot of, and I hope we can get into this, about why we ride.

But you feel this sense of freedom. And it’s just a big bike. And you just feel, I’ll be honest with you, you feel empowered.

So that’s what I’m riding now. I love it. I’m. I’ve always liked those bikes, but I always thought they were too big.

And I’m like, no, no. Once you’ve done it and rode them, it just feels great. Now, I’ll be honest with you.

I like to ride sport bikes every once in a while. Those are those ones you see going very quickly down the interstate because they’re just so hyper.

They’re so nimble, as nimble as you could be. But in any event, I’m a road, you know, I’m getting older.

So I’m a road type guy, road bike guy. So that’s what we’re doing right now.

Lindsey:

Well, that’s fantastic. And clearly this is something that’s passionate for, that you’re very passionate about, that you have been doing for a very long time.

You know the ins and outs, you know your bikes, you know the reasons of the why that, you know, motorcyclists like to be out there riding and you’re part of that community.

So it would seem like it would be an obvious fit that an injured rider would choose to work with another member of their community.

But with so many other lawyers out there who are out They’re writing. Why do motorcycle riders choose to work with you?

Paul Hernandez:

Yeah, so I appreciate you bringing that up because that’s very important. Why do certain people hire certain firms? Now, riders hire us because they know us.

They know law tigers, number one. They know us because I’ll be honest with you, we’re big advertisers. We’ve been doing it ever since it began.

So we’re ubiquitous. They know us. But when it comes to a motorcycle rider, and it depends on the type of bike you ride, but certainly the road bike community, they know law tigers.

Why, though? Why do they know us? Because we are in the community. We are at every dealership. We’re at every repair facility.

We’re friends with different motorcycle clubs, and we support the community. What does that mean? What do mean by support the community?

Number one, we’re there helping and teaching and sponsoring. Training for new motorcycle riders and for experienced motorcycle riders. So we’re in the shops, okay?

We co-brand with everybody I just told you about, the dealers and the repair facilities and the motorcycle clubs, to support the community.

When we have races, when we have, you know, shows, motorcycle shows, whatever we’re doing, we’re there sponsoring things and helping people.

But why? Number one, because we love it, okay? It is different. So, you know, I ask people, it’s funny because I’ll ask somebody, hey, do you ever heard of Long Tigers?

And they’ll go, no idea. And I go, do you ride a motorcycle? And they go, no. I go, done, right?

It’s okay. No big deal. You don’t need to know. But you ask a rider and they go, oh, yeah, I’m familiar because they’re always out there.

They’re always out there. You know, we go and do shop talks quite frequently. And again, I’ll be honest with you, it takes a lot of our time, right?

We’ll have lawyers go to these different facilities, these different dealerships and clubs to talk about things that affect us, whether it’s laws that help us, laws that hurt us, our ability to change the laws.

And most importantly, and I will tell you this, this is 100% true, safety, safety. I am a safety freak.

Yes, drive, I guess I ride a cool bike, but I’ll be honest with you, it’s a beautiful pearl white.

Why? I want to be seen. And I’m wearing reflective day glow gear in the day and reflective gear at night because at the end of the day, I want to be seen.

Yeah, everybody wants to be cool on their bike, but I’d rather be cool and seen than cool and not seen and have something happen.

So back to the issue of why, number one, they know us and they know we support the community. Now, that’s a very interesting type of marketing.

It’s literally considered affinity marketing. Okay, maybe somebody you know. Okay, Markets that they support cancer research. Why? Because maybe they or their spouse were afflicted with cancer, so they understand.

so what happens? Other people who respect that firm, you know, supports that cause, then they like them, right? You like riding motorcycles.

I like riding motorcycles. I like you, okay? And that whole connection of type of marketing or advertising, that is the best way to do it, right?

Because if you do it, I do it, we like each other. So that’s the kicker. Now, then there’s a second half to that.

And the second half to that is riders do like to hire people who ride. And it also is in that same vein of affinity, but it’s also in the, you have walked in my shoes.

You have walked in my shoes. And you understand the reasons why we do specific. So, you know, and there’s, I’ll give you one more reason why they call us.

Because you did a great job, and they’re referring their friends and family. You know, that’s, we all know referral cases that come to you on referral, whether it’s from other lawyers or prior clients, they’re the best cases, right?

They don’t care about advertising or marketing or anything of that nature. They say, you know what, you need to go to Calphys and Ackman because they did XYZ and did, you know, PDQ.

So those are the three things. They know us because we’re out there everywhere and supporting the community. They’re hiring us because we’re one of them.

And the third reason is because you did a great job for them. They’re referring you to their friends and family.

And, you know, these people, by the way, are, they’re referring cases, not just motorcycle cases. They’re referring motor vehicle cases.

They’re referring slip and fall cases, dog bite or whatever. So, you know. Once you get in and you do a great job for somebody, know, that’s, and again, that’s the best way to, you know, show that you did a great job is that they’re referring you people.

Lindsey:

Well, I think all of this builds into kind of the next question that I have for you, which is the cases themselves, because everybody in this community has that compassion and they have the reasons that they do the things that they do.

And nobody’s going to understand that like somebody who is walking in their shoes, who’s riding on the same roads in the same ways.

And with that understanding, how would you categorize motorcycle accidents as being different from other types of personal injury cases?

Paul Hernandez:

Yeah, so there’s no question they’re different in regards to injuries. The injuries are much more significant. I mean, riding a bike, yes, you have a helmet on in those states that require a helmet.

But you don’t have airbags. You don’t have that nice cushion. You don’t have seatbelts. You’re not surrounded by steel.

So when an incident occurs, many times you’re thrown from the bike, and it’s you against every object that’s out there, whether it be the motor vehicle that turned left in front of you, whether it be the road that you’re now sliding down and getting road rash.

So the injuries are much more significant. And let me tell you one other thing, which you always see in these motorcycle cases.

Usually the emergency room bill is extremely high. Why? Because emergency rooms, look, they’re physicians. It’s common sense. Emergency room doctors look at it and say, okay, motorcycle crash, or even pedestrian crash.

They understand there’s not that support and that cushy things around the individual to protect them from serious injury. So there’s always suspect.

They’re always suspect of serious internal injuries. So they are going to. Light your client up. You’re getting CT scans.

You’re getting MRIs. You’re getting ultrasounds. You’re getting everything in the entire world from top to bottom. So you have a lot of high medical bills in motorcycle cases.

So number one, they’re different because the injuries are going to be high. Number two, they’re different because most, this is so crazy when you think about it, most riders take their injuries as secondary.

They are more concerned about their bike than they are their injuries. And it’s crazy because the bike is a material thing.

We can get you another bike. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was a custom bike. That was a bike that I’ve spent the last five years customizing the way I wanted it, and now it’s banged up.

And what’s terrible about that part of it is even in the smallest of accidents with a motorcycle. Many, many, many, many times the bike is going to be considered totaled because a simple bend or small fracture of anything in the frame of the bike, it’s not safe at that point in time.

And it costs way too much money to remove all the parts, put it on a new frame. They’re like, no, you’re getting another bike, right?

And you start from scratch. Is it good? Yeah, is it good? Is it not good? Yeah. All right. So, you know, so number one, injuries are different.

Number two, the bizarre part is they care about their bike more. And then, you know, they’re different because you have to understand why people who ride motorcycles do what they do in a situation where there’s an emergency, in a situation where there’s a crash.

People would like to think, okay, they’re smaller. Okay, so they stop faster than cars. That’s not true. That’s not true.

Bikes do not stop faster than cars. Okay, well, you’re small. So you’re more nimble than a car. Not really, because I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a motorcycle.

We don’t have steering wheels. We have handlebars. And to turn on a bike, you lean. You lean and turn your handlebars, and we’re not as limbo.

We can’t just spin our handlebars around and go back the other direction. It doesn’t work that way. So then we have to think, okay, then the difference is, you may think, why didn’t that motorcycle just stop?

Okay, well, because one, you couldn’t. Two, we’re trained differently. Motorcycle training is totally different than automobile lessons or learning how to drive an automobile, because we have been taught, okay, at a certain speed, don’t stop.

Avoid. Okay, avoid. Try to go around that hazard as opposed to trying to stop, because you will not be able to stop.

Another way is, listen, you know, we learn, and you’ve got to understand why, but we learn to lay a bike down.

Why don’t you lay the bike down? Why? Because we’ll have a nice bumper on the front. And when we hit something, we are now being flown.

We’re getting catapulted, you know, down the roadway. So we learn to put something of mass in between us and the offending object.

So when that vehicle is turning left in front of you or pulling out of a parking lot because they didn’t see us, which is the biggest joke, we are taught to lay the bike down and put that in between us and the offending object in an effort to put something between us so we don’t get hurt as bad.

But so, you know, we many times, many times we we try to avoid the harm, OK, as opposed to running into it.

So in any event, so they’re definitely different in those regards. And so when you really think about it, if you haven’t ridden again, we’re going to talk about this because you don’t have to ride to get these types of cases.

But on the mental side of things. You understand why the person riding the bike did what they did because you ride as well.

And you’ve been down that road where somebody has come into your lane, okay, and they didn’t see you. You’ve been there when the landscapers are blowing grass, okay, cut grass and pine straw into the roadway.

Now, most people wouldn’t think anything of that, but for a motorcyclist, that is essentially putting ice on the road because it’s an extremely slippery substance, and we only have two wheels.

We have two wheels. You know, one other thing I want to say because this is so true, I just saw this happen in a crash that happened in front of me a couple weeks ago.

This car got hit, and it spun around on its axis, right? It just spun. We don’t spin. We don’t spin.

If we’re spinning, we are in trouble, right? We’re the ones spinning down the roadway. So those are some of the main reasons why they’re different.

Lindsey:

And those are some substantial differences. And, I mean, clearly, So motorcycles operate very differently than cars do. And there’s a different mentality of the rider when it comes to what their priority is in getting repaired.

Clearly, they want to get their bike repaired. And if this is a large part of their lives, which for many riders it is, their focus is getting back on the bike and getting back onto the road again.

And I would imagine that there are probably some challenges in getting your clients to attend all of their doctor’s office visits or doing the right procedural things and taking time off of riding as that might impact their case.

Paul Hernandez:

How do you keep riders doing the right thing in terms of going to their doctor’s appointments and staying safe and making good decisions while you’re still navigating the complexities of their case?

Well, you know, you said something at the beginning of that question in regards to that. And I want people to understand something about motorcycle riders.

Motorcycle riders don’t really use a motorcycle. Motorcycle, for transportation. We take a car, we take a bus, whatever we’re doing, we’re using it to get to work, to get to the store, to go to a class, whatever.

We’re using that as transportation. Most motorcycle riding is not for transportation. You’re going, what are you talking about? No, no.

Most motorcycle riding is for fun. So we literally, the community says, we ride to burn gas. That’s it. That’s it.

Now, are there some people who are using it for transportation? Yes. When the weather gets nice, yes. I mean, we’re in a big military community.

Our main office is in North Virginia, and we have the largest Navy base in the entire world. And we do have a lot of military riders who use that bike for transportation.

And I get that part. But most of us are not doing it. And that’s another thing to understand why we do what we do.

We’re just out here having a good time, whether it’s a ride for a charity, whether it’s a, oh, honey.

You need something from the store? I’ll get it, right? And I want to ride my motorcycle up to the store just to pick something up for her.

Again, we ride to burn gas. But your question was, and it’s very important, you were talking about most of our riders who are victims of these crashes, of course, they care about their bike first, but they also don’t look at their injuries as being that important.

And why? Because I’ll be honest with you, most of our riders, most of our injured riders are male, okay?

Well, want to say we’re not the brightest guys in the world, okay? I mean, look, I mean, all men are kind of the same.

And what do I mean by that? Many guys will just say, hey, you know what? I’m going to tough it out.

I’m going to rub some dirt on it, and I’m going back to work. It’s not until they find out that a month later, this didn’t stop hurting.

You know, maybe I need to get this looked at. And it’s, It is something – and if you’re handling personal injury cases, you do understand that you need to set that case up from the beginning because any gaps in treatment is the kryptonite to a case, especially if it happens at the beginning of the case.

So if you have your rough-and-tumble guy who says, you know, I just went back to work. I said, well, didn’t you have these – yeah, I still went to work.

I mean I had to work. I mean I got to put food on the table, right? And did you get any treatment?

No. And you have to have that sit down with him and explain. Let me explain something to you. Yes, you were hurt.

Yes, we’re taking care of your bike. And the number one – and I tell this to every single one of them, look, don’t even look at the end.

Look at I want you to get the best medical treatment to be healed because you may only have one opportunity for justice, okay?

And you certainly only have one time you’re walking on this earth in regards to who you are today. So we want to make sure you get the appropriate medical care and the best medical care.

You are entitled to the best medical Now, you don’t have to go to a clinic. You should be able to go to whatever hospital you need to go to get whatever your treatment.

So we literally have a sit down. You know, now it’s all through Zoom or through telephone because it’s very hard to get everybody in their office.

But with your paralegal, with your attorney, with your negotiator, investigator, we sit there. One, of course, we talk, you know, mess for a little while.

talk motorcycles because we love talking motorcycles. But then we explain the importance of making sure you get the appropriate medical care.

Number one, because we want you to get better. We want you to be able to provide for you and your family and things of that nature for the rest of your life.

And number two, listen, as a personal injury attorney, my job is to get you the maximum compensation for your injuries.

And it’s all foreign to them. They don’t understand how it works. They don’t understand why. But part of that and the number one thing is, is do you have the appropriate medical care?

Had all of your injuries been identified? Did you did you get a surgery? OK, let’s assume you got the surgery.

Did you get an estimate for the next surgery you’re going to have? What do mean the next surgery? Well, you’ve had spinal surgery, and you’re going to have adjacent segment syndrome in 10 years from now.

Or you had an injury to your knee, and they did a surgery on your knee. Well, you’re going to have arthritis where you’re going to need a partial knee or a knee replacement.

Did you get that other, you know, that care or that estimate of care, that life care plan for that individual?

And again, you talk this stuff to the guy who’s riding a bike, you know, riding a motorcycle, and they’re like, well, what are you talking about?

And what do I say? Okay, you do what you do, okay? You get better, and then I’m going to do your case, okay?

But you definitely need to make sure to spend time because they don’t understand. They just think you just rub dirt on it, and those are the cards that you were dealt, and that’s what you do.

Lindsey:

Well, that’s such a challenging misconception to try to communicate through. And really, you’re coming from two very different perspectives, even though you understand where they’re coming.

You need to get them on the same page as you are. And when you have those types of misconceptions, it clearly leaves your case open to some jeopardy there.

But those aren’t the only misconceptions that you have to deal with. What misconceptions or stereotypes from the other side are out there regarding writers that you have to combat?

Paul Hernandez:

Well, so the first one, I appreciate you bringing it up because there are no questions. I’m just going to call it motorcycle bias.

And it starts with people who don’t ride. Whether the officer who investigated your case, if he or she is not a rider, they’re not going to ride that.

They’re going to think you did something wrong. They’re going to mark it up. And many people think the mere fact that you’re on a motorcycle is that you must be negligent in some way, fashion, or form.

That’s a death trap. That’s this. And the answer is, I don’t think so. That’s not how it works. Number one, let me ask you a question.

I’m going to get back to it, but let me ask you a question. Do you ride a bike?

Lindsey:

Do I personally ride a bike?

Paul Hernandez:

A bicycle, a bicycle, a bicycle.

Lindsey:

I have, I do, I have a bicycle. I ride it occasionally, but I have ridden on motorcycles.

Paul Hernandez:

Yeah, but a bicycle, it’s fun to ride, right?

Lindsey:

Yes.

Paul Hernandez:

It isn’t life to enjoy. So think about it for a second. Take riding a bicycle and how fun it is and exciting.

You get a little bit of exercise, get the wind in your hair, get, you know, you get outside, you’re breathing fresh air.

Now you want to take it to the next level and that’s riding a motorcycle, okay? You’ve got power under your butt, at your wrist, at your hand.

You have the wind coming in. We call it wind therapy. I’m going for some wind therapy. What do you mean?

I’m going for a ride. Where are you going? Doesn’t matter. I’m going for a ride. But the point is, life is to be enjoyed.

If you’re allowed to go for a walk, great. We love going for a while. If you’re allowed to go for a bicycle ride, great.

I love that feeling. Maybe you have a scooter. Maybe you have an electric bike, whatever. Now take it to the next level that we do, and we’re on motorcycles and enjoy it.

We have every right to enjoy the same roadways that we paid for, just like you paid for, right? And so, yes, is it dangerous?

There’s no question it’s dangerous. Why? Because there are a lot of people driving cars and trucks who are not paying attention, okay, not giving full time and attention to the road.

And when a wreck does occur, yes, this is a mere fact that a car is going to win almost every single time against a motorcycle.

So people have this preconceived notion or misconception that the mere fact that you’re on a motorcycle, you must be negligent or at fault.

There are certain states that don’t have helmets, okay? Now, listen, I’m a lawyer. I don’t like laws. I don’t like the fact that it makes you wear a helmet.

Do I wear a every day? Yeah. Do I wear a large helmet with a full face protection? The answer is I do.

But if you choose not to do that and everybody else is doing what they’re supposed to be doing, everybody’s fine.

Nobody gets hurt. It’s not until somebody is not paying attention or giving full time and attention that the motorcyclist gets hurt.

So number one, the first misconception is there’s always bias against the cyclists thinking that they may be at fault.

Number two, they always think that we are speeding. Always think that we’re speeding. Especially a sport bike. Now, why are motorcycles loud?

Why are those things loud? Because they can be seen. That sounds kind of odd. You said loud. That’s hearing.

But they can be seen because I know there’s something there, right? And then you look and you see. Why are those sports?

A sport bike, meaning those sometimes called rice rockets, whatever you want to call it, the sound of those things, they sound like they’re going faster than they are.

Now, don’t get me wrong. There are some risk takers out there that go super fast. That is the smallest percentage of the people that ride bikes.

But they think that we are always going too fast. Because whenever there’s a wreck with a motorcycle and a car, the number one thing that is stated by the car driver is, I didn’t see them.

They must have been speeding. You got to understand how crazy that is. I didn’t see you. So you must have been speeding.

Well, you can’t testify to my speed. Why? Because you didn’t see me, right? You had no opportunity to observe and indicate that.

The real fact is we were there. How do we know that? Motorcycle was there and there to be seen because the crash happened, right?

We were already there. So number one, that negligence part that they think just because we’re on there, they always think that we’re speeding.

And those who ride road bikes, okay, you know what? A lot of them have beards, mustache, leather, okay, maybe heavier set.

And they think they’re rough and tumble guys and they may be intimidating, which is the biggest joke I’ve ever seen in my life.

Being in the community, those are the nicest people you have ever met in your entire life. Much nicer than the guy down the street driving the BMW who’s, you know, giving you the finger as you drive by because you’re not on a BMW or in a BMW.

The point is this, these guys who look all rough and tumble and drive and whatever, you know what? It’s their image.

They’re just doing an image, just like somebody else who has, you know, who doesn’t have those things. It’s their image.

But these people are, and you know what? You know what else? These people who are rough and tumble and intimidating, they have families.

They have children. They have jobs, just like you. Just like the vast majority of this, they have families and jobs.

And here’s the most important part. I told you a couple minutes ago, we ride to burn gas. If we have an excuse to ride, we’re going to take it.

Do you know what most of these people do? I guarantee you most of these people are more charitable than 90% of the people in the United States.

Why? Because these people do charity rides all the time. They are out there trying to drum up money for causes.

Kids with cancer, kids with leukemia, kids with whatever their condition is. Every single weekend, there are multiple charity rides.

And what do we do? We get on these rides and we support those events and we drum up money.

For those type of things. So, you know, it’s kind of bizarre to see, to watch people be intimidated by these people who are the, they’re like teddy bears.

They’re like kitty cats. You know, they’re the nicest people in the world. Are there some tough guys out there that are me?

I get it. Come on. There’s something in every bit. But the vast majority, as I’m listening right here, the motorcycles are going by right now.

I know you can’t hear it, but at my office, there’s like six or seven Harleys driving by right now.

But the point is, that’s a huge misconception. And they might be intimidating at first, but as you look at them, they also might be handing you a teddy bear because they’re on a teddy bear ride.

Lindsey:

And I love hearing those stories. And those are so true. I grew up in Denver and my mom owned a donut shop and we would bring donuts out to the Harley Davidson toy run every year and just have a booth giving away donuts to these writers who would show up.

By the hundreds in this outdoor mall called Aspen Grove, and they would all bring toys and teddy bears and tie them to the fronts of their bikes and then get in a big long line and drive down to the local children’s hospital.

And just the absolute nicest guys and a great community to be involved in. I always loved being a part of that event.

And obviously, this is a great group. They, you know, you have great people, big hearts. And, you know, the cases when you get them from a business perspective are also great to, you know, help serve the members of this community.

But how can lawyers attract consistent motorcycle accident cases if they aren’t a rider and aren’t a part of that community?

Paul Hernandez:

So I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lots. I get that. I get that hesitation all the time.

So let me, you, you started this podcast talking about niche, right? And niche. niche. And Now, there is no better niche marketing handling cases than motorcycle.

Look, some people say, oh, no, I handle catastrophic tractor-trailer accidents and commercial motor vehicle accidents. That’s not a niche.

That’s not a niche at all. Why? Because those victims of commercial motor vehicle crashes have nothing to do with each other.

Okay, they’re total strangers. The difference here is every single motorcycle injury, they do belong to a group. What’s that group?

It is riding motorcycles, period. It’s a club. It’s a group. Let me go on a slight tangent because one of my first vehicles in my life was a Jeep CJ7.

I know. I just dated myself again. But Jeep CJ7, if you’ve ever owned a Jeep, and there’s people listening to this podcast right now that says, I’m the Jeep when you

You own a Jeep and you drive down the street. Other people driving Jeeps, Jeepers, whatever you want to call them, other people driving Jeeps wave at you.

You don’t know them from Adam, and they’re waving at you. Why? Because you’re in that niche of ownership of a Jeep.

And we’re all friends. We’re all friends, right? I like you because you, I don’t know you from anybody, but I like you because you ride a Jeep, or excuse me, you drive a Jeep.

And similar in the motorcycle community, right? It’s that whole, it’s the best niche you could ever belong to, okay?

Now, you asked, how can people who don’t ride attract motorcycle cases? Now, I told you, I get people who go, yeah, I don’t even want to get involved in them.

Yeah, they’re great cases. I don’t want to get involved in them because I don’t want to act like a poser, right?

I don’t ride. And I, to be honest with you, I don’t understand their plight, know, their reasoning. People would want to put dollars in front of that, but when it gets down to it, and if you’re honest with yourself, and surprises me, there are so many people that are like, yeah, I’m not part of that community, so I’m not going to do it.

Well, I got to be honest with you. Even if you’re not a rider, you can help the community because riders at the end of the day, is that a binary thing that it says, if you’re not a rider, I’m not taking you.

I’m not going to go to you. No, but if you support the community in any way, shape, or form, they’re going to support you back.

It’s that affinity marketing. Again, I’m a big fan of Law Tigers. I love it to death. I’ve got it for Virginia, North Carolina, Washington, D.C.

I love it. I talk to other people at conferences. I go to a billion conferences a year, and I ask about what they do.

Oh, I get motorcycle cases, and I go, are you a rider? And they go, no. I go, how do you get them?

And they go, because I support the community. And we talk about it. How do you do that? You do what else I do.

What do we do? We’re going down to the local dealerships, whether it be a Harley dealership, Honda dealership, an Indian dealership, whatever it is.

And you do shop talk. Hey, I want to do a shop talk. Next time you have a group, I’m going to come in and talk about motorcycle insurance.

I’m going to go in and talk about what to do in a motorcycle accident. And if you go there and support those things and sponsor things, whether they’re races, whether they’re rides, the motorcycle community hears you, okay?

And they see you. And so if you’re a rider, is it better? Of course it is. mean, come on.

There’s no question. But you don’t have to be a rider. You can still earn the respect of the community if you respect the community, okay?

Take the time. But if you think you are going to get motorcycle cases by… Having a TV ad, we handle motorcycle cases.

It ain’t going to work. We’re going to put some social media on. We handle motorcycle cases. I’m sorry to tell you.

It’s not going to work. Okay, you get one case. You and I talked about this before because I talk to people and I say, how many motorcycle cases do have?

These are big TV advertisers. How many motorcycle cases do you have? Oh, I got lots of them. I’ll bet you $100 you ain’t got more than five.

I’ll bet you $100 right now. And they go back to their office and they come back and they go, uh, yeah, we don’t have five.

They think they do, but they don’t. But once you have been in the community and doing it, you find out you now have hundreds, hundreds of motorcycle cases.

Why? Because you are the go-to person for that. Can you get more motorcycle cases and you’re not a rider?

The answer is yes, but you got to do the time. You got to put in the effort. And again, if you’re not going to ride, that’s okay.

Show up to the. You know, we’re all hanging out. We were only riding the bike to the event, right?

I mean, we’re all, you know, chit-chatting. You can still support the community. So the number one way, support the community.

And don’t let not being a rider stop you from getting involved.

Lindsey:

Right. And you can be an ally. You can be an advocate. You can still show up and say, hey, I care about your rights.

I know that there are things that are working against you in the community. And I want to make sure that you’re having the best representation possible, that the roadways are as safe for you as possible, and that you can go out every day and do what you love to do because it is within your rights to do it.

And you can show up and be that advocate. And if you’re not on a bike still doing that, there is still a lot of value in there.

So those are a lot of the things that you can do right to build these communities. But are there any pitfalls to avoid when you’re trying to earn more motorcycle accident cases?

Paul Hernandez:

Well, you know, so the one thing we didn’t talk about, one of the complexities that we have in motorcycle cases.

Look, the injuries were there. So let me refresh people who handle personal injury cases. The three-legged stool that we need, we need liability, okay, the defendant at fault, and either you not at fault, or we’re in Virginia, which means if you are any bit at fault for an accident, that’s contributory negligence, it’s a complete bar.

But you need liability, you need damages, or you’re going to get damages, okay, in a motorcycle case. And then you need coverage, right, or an asset or deep pocket.

So one of the things that you also have to be is someone extremely knowledgeable in insurance law, okay? What do I mean by that?

You’ve got to know what type of policies do stack, if they stack in your state, how to get, because in our state, in many states, motorcycle policies are different than automobile policies.

Why? Because motor vehicle policies will tell you it’s a four-wheel vehicle. Motorcycle policies are three-wheel vehicles or two-wheel vehicles, okay?

And they’re different, okay? And they might apply differently. So then the other thing you want to do in regards to motorcycle crashes is, of course, I’m going to tell everybody this, and you’ve heard it from a million people, go to the scene to determine if there were other things involved that may have caused or contributed to the cause to the motorcycle, to the accident.

Because these cases usually are, they’re catastrophic cases. They’re worth millions of dollars, and you may have a minimum limit policy.

Okay, well, at the scene, maybe they had some construction going on. At the scene, maybe there was something where some signage should have been there or signage was removed.

Maybe somebody blew, you know, there’s debris on the road from somebody dropping debris on a vehicle. You don’t know these things until you go in.

And you have to do those extra things in regards to, again, they’re catastrophic cases, but you got to find that coverage.

The last thing, and I’m going to tell you something. I started doing this 25 years ago, and that is actually making the defendant, if there’s not enough coverage, write a check.

What? What do you mean write a check? They don’t have any money? Yeah. Write a check. Either I’m going to sue you, and I’m going to get a judgment against you, or I’m going to sue you, and you’re going to file for bankruptcy, or you’re going to write me a check.

I’m going to tell you what that does. It’s surprising how fast they find out that, oh my gosh, there’s more coverage for some reason.

I didn’t tell you about that umbrella policy we had. Oh, really? Yeah, it’s not until that defendant who caused that wreck has to actually come out of their own pocket that they miraculously find other coverage.

So those are one of the big pitfalls. You got to understand the insurance. But, you know, the… And there’s also one other thing we do.

We also make them all, the defendants, by the way, sign an affidavit that indicates that they were not driving for Uber or Lyft or DoorDash or Amazon, Amazon Flex, delivering pizza, whatever it is.

And you’ve to understand why. Those people who are doing it, they’re not driving their vehicle. They’re driving their own vehicle.

So if you get an accident report, you have no clue what they’re actually doing. Unless they were wearing a red hat that said DoorDash when it happened.

So those are some big ones there. But the other thing with a pitfall is don’t try to just resolve the case and get your money quick and do it for minimum limits and go on to the next case.

We don’t do that. We don’t do that. We make sure we’re going to file suit against that individual because, again, it’s 50% of the time you find out there’s additional coverage.

Or some other way to pay for it so, you know? Again, you have to do great work for your clients.

And look, you should be doing this for all your clients, right? Because you want that five-star Google review. You want to have these people referring their friends and family.

But remember, you do something right for the motorcycle community, they’re going to sing your praises. You do something wrong, and I hate to tell you guys, bad news travels much faster than good news.

So if you’re not doing everything you can possibly do, and listen, if every firm has this problem, communicate with your client.

Communicate with your client. Motorcycle victims, again, mostly they’re men. They’re not big talkers, and they don’t tell you everything.

Last thing I really want to say, because it’s especially true in Virginia, and actually other states as well. Now, remember to ask your clients about other motor vehicles that they have, right?

Because if you’re in a… In a stackable state, whether it’s a motorcycle, whether it’s a car, whether it’s an RV, I mean, literally, I gotta tell you this one quickly, because this is, I love this story.

I had a lady come walking in for a car accident case. I’m about to do a settlement conference with her.

Her case was worth lots and lots and lots of money. Unfortunately, there was only minimum limits, and we did everything we could.

All we could get is minimum limits. I walk out to do the settlement conference with her, and she comes in with a Harley Davidson sweatshirt on.

says, Harley Davidson, that bound both arms. Now, this is an auto case. And I said, ma’am, I said, are you a rider?

And she goes, my husband is. And I said, oh, okay. I said, and does your husband have a, did he have a motorcycle on the day of the accident?

She said, oh, yeah, 20 years he’s had a motorcycle. I said, great. Did he have insurance on it? Yes, he did.

I said, well, do you remember when I asked you, were there any other policies in the household, blah, blah, blah, blah?

And she goes, oh, yeah. I remember. Remember, Mr. Hernandez, but the motorcycle wasn’t involved in the wreck. And I went, hmm, okay.

So long and short, while she sat there, before we signed the release, we found out I could attach another policy, and we just doubled her recovery.

Okay, because you could stack that in Virginia in that regard. So my point is, you got to spend time with your clients.

You got to spend time with your clients, and especially motorcycle guys, because look, we’re guys, right? Most of them are guys, and we’re not as smart as you ladies out there.

Lindsey:

Well, and absolutely, you’ve got to work the case, and you’ve got to do right by your clients. As you said, the bad news is going to travel a lot faster than the good news does, and it is infinitely harder, if not impossible, to recover from doing bad work by your clients.

So, well, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all the insights that you have from the heart of this industry.

So thank you so much. Thank much for coming and being a guest today.

Paul Hernandez:

Appreciate it, Lindsey.

Chris Mullins, The Phone Sales Doctor, joins us today to discuss her upcoming PILMMA roundtable – Intake.

You can spend millions of dollars on marketing and have it be all for naught if your intake team is dropping the ball. Afterall, your intake sales specialists are the first warm introduction between your law firm and your prospective clients. They need to not only collect the right information, but they need to do so while showing empathy and compassion to people experiencing trauma.

On this episode, we talk about:

Visit Chris Mullins here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismullinsphonesalesdoctor/.

We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Transcript coming soon.

Attorney Lawrence LeBrocq, CEO and Managing Partner of Garces, Grabler and LeBrocq PC (GGL), joins us today to discuss Processes and Systems to Maximize Profit in a Personal Injury Law Firm.

He’ll be speaking at the PILMMA Super Summit this year.

There are many skill sets that come into play when growing your firm. It is easy to oversimplify it. One might think, “I’ll invest in marketing, get more clients in the door, then add more attorneys once I have the business growing.” While those are all important, there is a crucial piece missing for maximizing profitability long-term: systems and processes. Without these in place, you risk costly inefficiencies, poor client relationships, and employee burnout.

In this episode, we discuss:

Visit Lawrence LeBrocq online here https://ggllawyers.com/our-attorneys/lawrence-a-lebrocq-esq/.

We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Transcript coming soon.

As we continue our Spotlight on PILMMA series, Attorneys Greg Ward and Jany Martínez-Ward of  join us to discuss the strategies and pitfalls lawyers face as they scale their practices.

The Ward Law Group has grown significantly, and has offices in both Miami and New York. Growth is exciting — but without the right foundation, it can become a nightmare – leaving you with damaging scars. But real success isn’t just about getting more clients — it’s about scaling the right way.

In this episode, we cover:

Visit The Ward Law Group online here: https://www.855dolor55.com/.

We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Transcription coming soon.

Cindy Speaker, CEO of Speaker Media and Marketing, joins us today as we continue our “Spotlight on PILMMA” series. At the PILMMA Super Summit 2025 conference, she will be discussing the Best Strategies for Business Marketing. But today, she will be walking us through some of the bigger mistakes lawyers make along the way.

Using videos in your marketing strategy just makes sense. People are regularly searching for videos to summarize complex issues. Google is even starting to prioritize videos in search results. You just have to start doing it.

In this episode, we discuss:

Visit Cindy online here: https://cindyspeaker.com/.

We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Tanscript:

Sterling Hawkins joins us today to discuss his “No Matter What” approach to success. This mindset has helped him grow through some of the most challenging transitions in his life, and he is sharing this mindset with the PILMMA community as the keynote speaker.

Growth is uncomfortable, but it is an inevitable part of change. This is unavoidable if you want your law firm to grow. But how do you navigate the discomfort so that you can thrive in your firm and successfully achieve your goals?

In this episode, we discuss:

This episode and the next several will feature PILMMA speakers in our “Spotlight on PILMMA” podcast series.

Visit Sterling online here: https://www.sterlinghawkins.com/.

We’ll be at PILMMA Super Summit 2025: https://optimizemyfirm.com/pilmma-2025/.

See all episodes or subscribe to the Personal Injury Marketing Minute here: https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/.

Welcome to the personal injury marketing minute where we quickly cover the hot.

Topics in the legal marketing world. I’m your host, Lindsey Busfield. As business owners, we didn’t just wake up one morning and go, I think I’ll be a lawyer, or I think I’ll run an SEO agency.

We had visions for success. We had inherent goals, even if they weren’t 100% hashed out. Maybe your goals have shifted over time, or maybe you’ve reached your initial goals and are building on the results.

Either way, you are listening to this podcast because you want more. Not only that, but you’re willing to take steps and time out of your day to learn how to get to your next level.

Continuing our Spotlight on Pilma series, Sterling Hawkins:, Pilma’s keynote speaker, joins us today to discuss his upcoming presentation on his no-matter-what approach to success.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Thank you so much for joining us today, Sterling. Lindsey, thanks for having me on. I’m looking forward to diving in together.

Lindsey:

Absolutely. Well, let’s get started with a bit about yourself and about your background.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Yeah, of course. Well, I… I grew up a fifth-generation retailer in my family’s supermarket. From there, I got into the entrepreneurial software tech world and got pretty lucky early on.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, we worked really hard as well, but the first company I founded became part of this Apple Pay before Apple Pay.

Lindsey:

Nice.

STERLING HAWKINS:

And we raised hundreds of millions of dollars. I thought it was only a matter of time until I’d crowned myself the next Steve Jobs.

But when the housing market collapsed, our investment dried up, and things went a totally different direction for me.

Lindsey:

Yeah, that will absolutely make a big shift, and unless you are able to pivot out of that, you can really get bogged down with that first big dip.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Totally. And I did get bogged down for a number of years, just sitting in my self-doubt and self-pity and everything else.

But what I started to realize is that that failure was an opportunity. We learned a lot of things as an organization, what to do in a culture, and then just for myself, what I need to do as an individual to grow.

And it was reflecting on some of those really hard, even dark times that kind of gave me the tool set first for myself, and then for organizations I worked with all over the world to help them grow, regardless of the circumstances.

In other words, no matter what.

Lindsey:

Well, nobody wants to listen to a motivational speaker, if you will, that hasn’t failed hard, because why would anybody who has just succeeded over time be able to speak to business owners and attorneys who are struggling, who are here because they don’t have all the answers?

So I think that that is a great credit to you, that you have that background experience of having the highs as well as having the lows.

So let’s dive in a little bit to that. What is No Matter What all about?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Yeah, well, it just started. There’s this personal mantra to, frankly, get myself out of bed in the morning, like, I’m going to get out of bed tomorrow no matter what.

I’m going to go to the gym no matter what. I’m going to call my creditors no matter what. And I started to realize that when I really made a commitment, like deep inside myself, and I told myself I’m going to do these things regardless of what happens, that I was making forward progress.

And that self-doubt that I still had in spades started to lessen its grip on me just a little bit.

That every time I honored one of those commitments. And so I started to share it. was first with my sister and then some four colleagues and then some entrepreneurs that I knew and then larger companies.

And I started to realize that this framework of committing, committing no matter what. And to be clear, I’m not saying compromise your integrity or values, but really commit with honor to do the things that you say you’re going to do is transformative.

And it became really the base. Basis of everything that we’re doing today to be able to grow regardless of the circumstances, whether there’s problems with regulation changes or staffing issues or global instability.

Those things don’t mean we can’t grow. It just means that we likely have to grow differently than we originally expected.

Lindsey:

And it’s commitments that give us the pathway to be able to do that. Yeah. And that’s a great point.

It’s these commitments. And it’s not necessarily even a commitment to the big picture, which it absolutely can be, but a commitment to each of the goals along the way.

As you said, committed to getting out of bed, going to the gym, calling the creditors, and whether it is making a phone call to somebody who is going to help you with your marketing or filling out a form to change your business name and get a DBA.

There are smaller goals along the way that you have to commit yourself to, no matter what, to continue along that path of growth.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Totally. There’s just plenty of excuses in the world. There just are. Now, maybe more than ever. And the thing is, those excuses are valid.

But what honoring our commitments does actually changes this mechanism in our brain called the reticular activating system, or RAS, R-A-S for short.

And before we commit, that RAS is auto-tuned for survival. It’s looking back into the past, telling us why we can’t, why we shouldn’t, why we’ll fail, why it’d be embarrassing, why we should never commit to anything to begin with.

But when we commit, and really commit in a way where we’re on the line, there’s no going back, it reframes that RAS to look for new openings for action that are literally invisible from where we sit prior.

And it’s when we honor those commitments that we start to see these opportunities for innovation, growth, and breakthrough results that literally are not available to us without those commitments from a biological, neurological standpoint.

Lindsey:

next That’s interesting. How fascinating, just that rewiring that takes place. Well, let’s kind of break this down into some practical terms for the attorneys that are listening here.

And it seems like part of this, you know, clearly is committing to the goals, but first you have to have a goal to commit to.

So what are some suggestions that you have for lawyers in terms of goal setting?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Yeah. Well, I think the biggest thing is that oftentimes discomfort, worry, self-doubt stands in the way of what we actually want to achieve.

And if we’re not paying attention to that, sometimes we make commitments inside of what we’re afraid of, not what we really want to accomplish.

And it ends up being things that we probably know we can already achieve and we take them, but they don’t really light us up inside.

It’s not ultimately what we really want. So I think the first step is understanding what’s in the way of what we really want to achieve.

Could be limited thinking. It could be self-doubt, but taking a moment to set some of those things aside and get present to what it is that I actually want to achieve for myself, my community, my clients, even the world.

And it’s from that place that you can start to see, well, what is it that I am ultimately committed to?

Not just from a mental standpoint, but where does my heart sit? And from that place, I can start to make some decisions, make some commitments that are really going to matter to me as a human being.

And when we have those kinds of commitments, they tend to be unstoppable. If it’s something that just exists in our head is a good idea, we’ll probably falter.

But if it exists in our heart as something that ultimately matters to us, we’ll continue to take those steps forward.

Does that make sense?

Lindsey:

It does, and it sounds like there is probably some soul-searching that needs to come into play before getting to that point, before setting those goals, and really kind of figuring out why you are being driven to whatever this big…

… Your goal is and finding the purpose behind that and what it is that you’re hoping will come of it, both in terms of how it makes you feel, but also how it’s going to change your life in a substantial way or change your firm in a substantial way.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Totally, totally. And I actually don’t think it’s one of those things where I feel like there’s countless quizzes online, like find your why and 10 questions in five minutes.

I don’t think it’s something like that. I actually don’t think we have to find our purpose or our why.

I think it actually exists within us. It’s just buried with all these thoughts and limitations and challenges we’ve run into previously.

To me, it’s more of a long-term process to get out of the way what’s in the way of unleashing that purpose that has been intrinsic within us always.

Lindsey:

Interesting. That is kind of a definitely different approach to finding and setting the goals that are going to be beneficial for you.

And so it sounds like, you know, a lot of this is kind of digging through the things, as you said, are standing in the way.

What are some of the biggest challenges that lawyers do face in terms of getting in their own way? And how can they take steps to grow beyond that?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Yeah, well, I think businesses of any sort, whether they’re legal or otherwise, don’t grow. So humans grow, and it’s that human growth that translates into the business growth, community growth, results growth, growth of any type.

It all starts with us. And any kind of person, we all deal with discomfort of all sorts, but there are really five main things that are in the way for all of us.

The first is an unwillingness to see an alternate reality. That’s not to say that our view is wrong. It’s just probably a partial version of the truth.

And when we can open up our minds to see… A different version, a different perspective, then that gives us some runway for growth that we probably didn’t have access to prior.

The second is self-doubt. We’ve referenced that a couple of times. We all have it. The third is the fear of exposure.

Somebody’s seeing me for who I really am. Many of us are okay sharing all the accolades and the successes and the wins.

But are you just as okay sharing some of the pitfalls or the failures or some of the inadequacies that you might feel about yourself?

The fourth is challenges. And the fifth is the discomfort that I think rules them all, which is the discomfort of the unknown.

Because we will never know exactly what’s going to come next with 100% certainty. Now, we all deal with all five of those things, but one probably rises to the top.

One is probably the biggest thing in our way. And as we can, again, probably in a period of deeper reflection, understand.

And well, what is it that I’m resisting? What is it that I’m fighting? Then we can start to set those things aside to be able to grow in really organic, authentic kinds of ways.

Lindsey:

I think about something that you, the word you keep using, which is, you know, discomfort, it’s uncomfortable. And I think about my own kids.

I’ve got a three-year-old and a six-year-old girl, and they are constantly in pain because their bodies are growing and they are cranky.

And they’re whiny and they want snacks all the time because they are going through uncomfortable growth. But it’s something that they have to grow through in order to get to that next level of development.

And, you know, the same as it is with, you know, physical growth, it is just as uncomfortable when you are growing as a person and, you as an extension growing your business, there are pains, there are risks, there is this unknown.

And, you as I watch my girls, Physically grow and kind of be uncomfortable in their own bodies. They don’t really understand how these mechanics are working.

The same is true as you grow into the unknown as a person, as a professional.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Totally. And growth is growth, by the way. Physical, mental, emotional. Research shows the brain and body process that almost identically.

So where you meet discomfort anywhere translates into how you deal with that discomfort everywhere. So the discomfort of running a 5K or a marathon translates into your ability to deal with the discomfort of a tough conversation at work.

The discomfort of a tough conversation at work might translate into maybe the challenge of getting out of bed when the alarm goes off.

Because if you’re like me, you like to hit that snooze button, right? Like our capacity to deal with that discomfort is a muscle you can build.

And, you know, what I always go back to is there is no growth. There’s no growth without discomfort. It is only in the discomfort of change that new possibilities are emerging.

I think we’ve got to embrace change, embrace the discomfort that goes with it, or we’ll be left behind.

Lindsey:

So how do you cope with it when it gets so much and you are so uncomfortable? How do you get a release from that discomfort?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Or do you just lean into it twice as hard? So that’s a great question, by the way, because I want to be very clear.

I’m not advocating living an uncomfortable life. I don’t wish discomfort on anybody. But I think what many of us do personally and professionally is we kind of lull ourselves into living with low levels of discomfort.

I don’t like the level that my business is at, but because of the economy, because of changing regulations, it’s quote unquote fine.

I don’t love the relationship that I’m in, or I don’t love my partnership, but I’m going to live with it.

So we actually talk. ourselves into dealing with the discomfort that we have and effectively living with it, for some cases, our entire lives.

What I’m advocating here is instead of living with low levels of discomfort in perpetuity, instead, deal with the tough conversation, deal with whatever that hard thing is in your way.

And yes, it’s going to get more uncomfortable for a short period of time, but then you will ultimately be free of it.

And I think that’s what makes the real difference. Like discomfort alone is not enough. It’s when we open our minds to new ideas and really soften our heart to some of those uncomfortable feelings that we can almost transcend that discomfort.

And that’s what growth ultimately is, making the formerly uncomfortable, comfortable.

Lindsey:

And the more that you face it, the more comfortable you become with discomfort. And we can accept it and then grow through it and change the things that you can change to make them more comfortable and better for that long.

Long-term enjoyment and happiness and meeting all of those goals. So we’re all going to PILMA, very excited about it.

And clearly lawyers are there to get inspired and learn some new skills and, you know, explore different options for growing their firms.

And they leave with this excitement. How can law firm owners avoid getting sucked back into old routines and old comfort zones and feed their ambitions as they keep going forward?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Yeah, I think a key to that actually brings us full circle, which is external accountability to the commitments that we make.

Now, everybody there is a high performer at some level or you wouldn’t be there, right? You’re committed to that next level of growth.

And I think one of the pitfalls that high performers fall into is, oh, well, I’m committed to do X, Y, or Z, so I don’t need external accountability.

I’ll figure it out. But we forget that when we’re thrown into the uncomfortable and the uncertain times of the chaos that’s inevitably ahead, we can get lost in that.

We forget what our commitments are, and we start to listen to the excuses. We start to listen to our uncomfortable feelings and forget what we ultimately wanted to achieve.

When we externalize commitments, that means I want to achieve a certain thing at a certain day at a certain time.

And whether you write it down, which would be like the lowest level of that, or share it with somebody, could be a business partner or a friend or a significant other.

But what matters is it’s somebody that’s going to go toe-to-toe with you and actually hold you accountable, which doesn’t mean, oh, you didn’t do it, that’s fine.

I’m not going to be mad at you if you didn’t do it. But let’s dig in and sort out why.

Because it’s honoring those commitments and figuring out how to achieve them that will make a difference. Now, When we have that external accountability, we’re not 70, 80, or 90% more likely to achieve our goal.

We are 95% more likely to achieve our goal. So if we can come out of there lit up and inspired and from that inspired place, make those external commitments, my bet is 95% of people, if not more, will be able to achieve those things, regardless of what’s going on in the world around them.

Lindsey:

Well, that’s the beauty of PILMA is, I mean, you have these super summits that you go to to get the tools, and then you have the mastermind groups that Ken hosts, where you have people who are invested in each other’s success, and they are there to hold each other accountable.

And in the episode that I just had Ken on, he talked all about how they are there as a group for that accountability piece, and that in and of itself makes people so much more successful as it is.

So now that we’re on the topic of PILMA and the Super Summit, I’m super excited to be there. What are you looking forward to most about the conference?

STERLING HAWKINS:

Me too. Well, to me, it’s always about the people. You know, what are people dealing with? What are they ultimately wanting to achieve?

What are they inspired by? And I don’t look at this so much as a keynote where I talk for 60 minutes on the stage.

To me, it’s more of a conversation. So I’m really looking forward to not just seeing everybody, but talking with everybody during the keynote and otherwise to really dig into what matters and see if we can create some paths forward.

Lindsey:

Well, I am sure you’re going to make some great relationships while you’re out there. And it’s such a great experience to be able to lean on each other and learn from each other throughout the course of the week.

So thank you so much for joining us today. I really enjoyed having you on the show.

STERLING HAWKINS:

Thanks for having me. Yeah, looking forward to seeing you very soon.