Few relationships shaped the 19th century as profoundly as that between President Abraham Lincoln and the great abolitionist and orator Frederick Douglass. Their story is not just about politics and policy; it’s about the complicated, evolving connection between two men navigating a nation at war with itself. Our guest today is Jonathan W. White, co-author with Lucas Morel of the compelling new book Measuring the Man: The Writings of Frederick Douglass on Abraham Lincoln. The book offers a front-row seat to history through Douglass’s own words, revealing his hopes, frustrations, and his eventual respect for Lincoln. It even includes newly discovered letters that shed fresh light on both leaders.