PhD Transition Report On-Demand

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1:20 – Isaiah’s Job Tip: Leverage The Fact That People Read Your Resume In A ‘F’ Pattern
4:45 – Show Me the Data
23:40 – How To Optimize Your Job Search w/ Dr. James Gould

Are you making your job search harder than is needs to be? 

Do you know what key steps you can take right now to boost your job search?

In this episode of Cheeky Scientist Radio, we are joined by Dr. James Gould from Harvard University, an experienced career consultant who actively coaches postdoctoral fellows and encourages them to consider new career options. He shares great insights into how PhDs and Postdocs can leverage their unique skills and find a rewarding career.

About Our Guest

James Gould completed his Ph.D. in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and his postdoc at the National Cancer Institute. While a postdoc, he joined the NCI Center for Cancer Research Fellows and Young Investigators Steering Committee and began his transition. James is a Presenter, Speaker, and Career Consultant and his given workshops and invited talks all over the US. He is currently the Director at the Office for Postdoctoral Fellows at Harvard Medical School. He has also written numerous articles about the PhD job search, such as this one which appeared in Nature.

Key Takeaways

1. Doing a postdoc hurts your career.

2. For the best job search results start about a year from when you need a job cultivating, maintaining and then activating your strong network of people.

3. The job search process begins with self-reflection.

Why Doing A Postdoc Is A Bad Idea

Very recently, Nature, published an article that examined the impact of doing a postdoc on a person’s salary over the long term. What they found was quite shocking.

The study showed that doing a postdoc actual means you will earn less money throughout your career than someone who did not do a postdoc. In industry, government and non-profit organisations those employees who did a post doc made  less money than those who did not do a postdoc over the 15 year length of the study. See the image from this paper below.

So, unless you become a professor (which is very, very unlikely) doing a postdoc is not only unnecessary, it will cause you to earn less money during your career.

If you have already done a postdoc, don’t worry, you can leverage this experience to get hired in industry. But it all about how you communicate your skills. You must learn how to make the skills you learned as a postdoc relevant to the company where you want to work so they can see your value.

Now is the time to start your industry job search so you can find a position where you can leverage your PhD and doing meaningful work.

How PhDs Can Optimize Their Job Search: A Conversation With Dr. James Gould

Isaiah: What do you think should be the biggest career priorities for a PhD or postdoc who is trying to ensure that they actually have options for their career?

James: The biggest career priority … that’s a difficult question. But in my mind, I think it should be a few things. If you can do these top three things: being an absolute expert in your field or technology or technique, being a visible person in that field, and then also cultivating, maintaining and activating a vibrant network of former schoolmates, former lab mates and maybe even future employers. Those might be top three. But I can talk about 30 other things that you should be doing as well.

Isaiah:What are the two things you could do right now to set yourself up in a career? We were talking about the Pareto principle a little earlier, so I’ll ask you what 20% of your activities can bring you 80% of the results in your job search?

James: What you can do right away would be making sure you’re not doing this alone. Reach out for help and keep those lines of communication and those lines of help active, and making sure that you don’t become isolated and then maybe burnt out and turn into a negative mindset, as you had mentioned.

Again, I will repeat, activate your network and continue to cultivate that network. And what I mean by activating in this sense is that you might know you’re going on in the market sooner or later, or you might even be on the market and just haven’t done this yet.

So one of the quickest ways to find positions and hear about new things and reconnect is to just reach out and activate the people that you know.

Tell them you’re on the market. Don’t necessarily ask for them for anything yet, but tell them you’re on the market and if they hear or know of anything … just more of a passive request. The third thing would be to be, you would probably like this phrase, cross training, and making sure what you’re doing is multipurpose, to give yourself the most bang for your buck. If you’re going to do something already, it’s on your calendar, it’s research related or career related, make sure you’re doing five other things while you’re there. I’ve mentioned this before in our webinars and chats.

If you’re going already to your departmental seminar weekly or monthly, make sure you’re introducing yourself to the speaker. Make sure you follow up with the speaker. Make sure you introduce yourself to somebody or a group of people that are new that you haven’t sat next to. So making sure what you’re doing and just expand that to the rest of your rest of your daily life. If you go to lunch in the cafeteria, make sure you introduce yourself, maybe sit in someone else’s table. Most of the time they won’t mind.

The other thing is making sure that you’re coming from a mindset and a perspective of positivity and moving forward. Making sure that you’re planning out your next strategic move. What’s the next logical step for you? Rather than coming from a place of fear or frustration. It’s okay to feel that. It might even be very close to the grieving process, but making sure that your decision making isn’t coming from a place of fear, but you’ve moved through that through reaching out for help, through activating your network, through cross training, and making sure that you’re moving in a positive forward … creating positive and forward momentum.

Isaiah: What is the job search process, in terms of just sequence? What’s the sequence you would suggest, given your expertise?

James: The sequence is, if you have the time and if there’s a timeline, I would say, you give yourself at least a year when you know you’re on the job market or going to the other job market. The longer the better, but probably a year.

The first thing is do a fairly in-depth self reflection.

What do I like to do? What am I good at? What are my values? Begin to think. Who do I know that shares these things? Who can I reach out to? What resources do I have institutionally in the lab, at my alma mater? If you’re a post-doc, you have at least two alma maters. Your undergrad school, your graduate school, and you might have even gone to medical school, so that’s three. You have all these resources that are just within your grasp.

So, you reach out and you say, what are the trends, what have you seen, where have graduates from these school or people from this lab, where have they gone on. Actually can I have their contact information and reach out to them? So, you begin to refine your vision for the perfect job for you. It may not be the first one out of post-doc or grad school, but hopefully within two or three jobs, you are very close.

You get this idea, you visualize your ideal job and you begin talking to people who you feel had jobs that are very close to that. Get their insights and you begin crafting your application materials, and you might be passively holding in job ads and opportunities. If there’s something that you absolutely can’t pass up then you need to move on very quickly. Give yourself time to digest what’s out there and learn how to read job advertisements, and learn how to read between the lines and learn how to find out who are you going to be reporting to, and then maybe reach out to them or somebody in that company or in that institution.

The job search is much more self reflective and inter-personal than anybody gets a credit for.

That would be a general sequence. Then, you go to a career counselor, a coach, Isaiah or myself and say, do you think my materials are strong enough for me to start applying now? And then you go through a series of revision, maybe peer review, expert critique and then begin to apply. Very strategic, very focused and targeted.

Watch the full podcast episode above to learn more about how to make your job search optimal from Dr. James Gould.

To get advanced access to the full length versions of these podcasts, as well as access to our live training webinars, exclusive training videos, case studies, industry insider documents, transition plan, and private online network, get on the waitlist for the Cheeky Scientist Association now.

The post How To Optimize Your Job Search As A PhD By Doing Less, Not More appeared first on Cheeky Scientist.

Skip ahead to:

0:10 – Show Me the Data
14:10 – Why Leadership Is The Most Important Transferable Skill For PhDs w/ Peter Bregman
40:40 – Immigration Concepts That International PhDs Looking To Work In The US Must Know   w/ Brian Getson

What does it mean to be a leader? 

Do you know how to communicate your leadership skills to employers?

In this episode of Cheeky Scientist Radio, Author, Speaker, CEO and Leadership Expert, Peter Bregman, discusses how PhDs can develop their leadership skills and become great leaders in industry. Peter gives us strategies to assess and close your leadership skill gap. Plus we have on immigration lawyer, Brian Getson, who discusses key concepts and intricacies of visas, green cards, and immigration.

About Our Guests

Peter Bregman has worked with CEOs and senior leaders to help them create accountability and inspire collective action on their most important work for more than 30 years. He helps leaders to develop their leadership skills, build aligned, collaborative teams, and overcome obstacles to drive results for their organizations. Peter has a deep understanding of both organizations and people and has dedicated his entire career to finding solutions that bring the interests of both together.

He has implemented his proprietary solutions with CEOs and senior leaders in many of the world’s premier organizations, including Allianz, American Express, Brunswick Group, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank, JPMorgan Chase, FEI, GE Capital, Merck, Clear Channel, Nike, UNICEF, among others. Peter is a sought-after speaker and thought leader in the areas of leadership development, organizational change, productivity and emotional courage.

Peter is the author of the best selling book, Leading With Emotional Courage.

Brian H. Getson, Esq. has extensive experience preparing EB-1A, EB-1B and NIW petitions for scientific researchers throughout the United States. After graduating cum laude from Duke University, Mr. Getson attended The University of Pennsylvania Law School. Upon receiving his law degree in 1995, he joined the Firm and concentrated his practice on immigration law.

Mr. Getson is a frequent speaker on the green card process for scientific researchers at annual meetings of the world’s most prestigious scientific organizations including The American Society for Cell Biology, Materials Research Society, American Chemical Society, The Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology, American Physical Society, and The American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

Key Takeaways

1. The time it takes for 50% of an academic cohort to leave academia has shortened from 35 years in the 1960s to only 5 years in the 2010s.

2. If you’re willing to feel everything, even your most fear emotions, then you can do anything.

3. The four critical elements of leadership are emotional courage, confidence in yourself, connection to others, and commitment to purpose.

The Types Of Cultures In Industry And Why Company Culture Is So Important

A study, recently published in PNAS, found that the number of STEM professionals staying in academia has dropped dramatically over the last 50 years.

The authors looked at cohorts of STEM academics from ecology, astronomy, and robotics. They found that in the 1960s half of those who started their careers in academia were still in academia 30 years later. Which means that 50% a cohort would spend their entire career in academia.

This is very different than what they found for the 2010s. After just 5 years, 50% of the STEM cohort had already left academia.

That means that majority of STEM PhDs are leaving academia after just 5 years. So you must be prepared to get a job outside of the university setting.

And a big part of getting hired in industry is showing a potential employer that you will bring lots of value to their organizations, including the ability to lead.

But what does it mean to be a leader? And what makes a good leader? One McKinsey study, evaluated the leadership traits of the leaders at successful companies vs not-as-successful companies.

The study found that 4 key leadership traits emerged in the most effective leaders: being supportive, operating with a strong results mindset, seeking different perspectives and solving problems effectively.

Why Leadership Is The Most Important Transferable Skill: A Conversation With Peter Bregman

Isaiah:I think would be smart for us to answer is, what exactly is emotional courage?

Peter: So emotional courage is, and in the book I talk about these four elements of leadership. And just looking at what you were talking about beforehand in terms of the four underlying skills that make leaders most effective, and I don’t disagree with those actually I think getting business results, and supporting people and all that stuff’s really important, and what I talk about is what underlays the ability to do that, and it’s these four elements of being confident in yourself, connected to others, committed to purpose, and emotional courage.

We can talk more about them, but they underlay, meaning if you aren’t those four things you’re going to have a hard time driving business results, you’re going to have a very, very hard time supporting other people et cetera. Emotional courage is the willingness to feel things, and this is actually particularly important I think with a PhD audience where you have honed your ability and your mind to think through things in very discerning ways, right?: very rational and discerning ways, and that’s the … you know I don’t have a PhD, I have a masters, but that’s the academic process right, the academic process is very much logic and thinking through things.

Now I’m going to challenge you to do a little activity, which is to think about a hard conversation that you’re not having, a hard conversation that you know you should have, and this is for everybody listening. A conversation you know you should have, you know it’s important, it doesn’t have to be work, it can be personal it can be anything you want. But you know you should have this conversation, but you’ve procrastinated on it, you haven’t had it, and now consider why you haven’t had it. I’m willing to bet you know everything you need to know in order to have it, you have plenty of skills in order to have that conversation, you’ve have time and opportunity.

But if that’s true, then why don’t you follow through on something like that? It’s because there’s something you don’t want to feel, that if you have this hard conversation, you may have to feel conflict, you may have to feel disconnection, you may have to feel their passive aggressiveness after the conversation, you might have to feel your anger, or their anger, you might have to feel shame, or embarrassment, or they might come back at you and you might get defensive, and because you don’t want to feel any of these things, then you’re better off not having the conversation, you hold it off.

But if you’re willing to feel everything, if you’re willing to feel conflict, and failure, and shame, and embarrassment, and defensiveness, and passive aggressive, if you’re willing to feel everything, then you can do anything.

If you think about, this is true for any risk that you take and any … you’re giving a lecture and it’s risky, and you’re going to be approaching it in a certain way, or you’re working in an organization and you have to contradict someone and certainly you need the skill to do it well, but ultimately you need to be willing to feel what you have to feel in order to take the risk to follow through on what’s important to you, and you might feel the insecurity, and the vulnerability of speaking up when nobody else is speaking up and you see something that’s important to raise, and those are emotional issues, those are the sort of, “Do you have the emotional courage, the willingness to feel everything in order to do those hard things?”, and that is the key that unlocks every other element.

Isaiah: Okay, I hate feeling because I’m a thinker. I’m STEM PhD, how can I tiptoe into that? How can I practice? How can I get more comfortable with those feelings?

Peter: Right, so first it’s just acknowledge what’s going on. That’s huge, right? To recognize there’s some feelings that are getting in my way and I’m actually really used to thinking. When I work with academics, too I’ll often say something like, “What are you feeling?” The answer will be, “I think I’m feeling xyz”  It’s because we’re so used to leveraging our intellect. The first thing to do is to recognize and begin to notice what you’re feeling. Really begin to feel. That’s actually really important.

Then begin to locate the feeling. Once you’ve done that then you realize oh, this feeling just a sensation. This feeling of insecurity is a sensation and my mind runs wild, everyone’s going to hate me and I’m going to say something stupid and then I’m going to lose all my job opportunities and then, step, step, step, step, step I’m homeless. If you can kind of step away from that a little bit and go oh, I have this sensation and it’s kind of in my chest. This is what it feels like. This is what it feels like to walk into a room of strangers and start to meet them, right?

I think the first step is are you willing to feel? Notice what you’re feeling and notice where you’re feeling it. My two favorite sentences are what are you feeling and where are you feeling it? Notice that. Then, don’t wait for that feeling to go away. I was trying to do some writing. I’ve written four books and I have confidence in my nonfiction in my writing. I don’t have confidence in my fiction writing. I actually don’t think that I’m a very good fiction writer at all. I’ve been having a hard time writing fiction. I said this to a friend of mine and she said, “Well, what’s stopping you? Like you just sit down and you write. What’s stopping you?” I said, and by the way, anyone who is working on your dissertation may be able to connect with this. I said, “You know, I think I’m scared. I think I’m not good. I think I’m scared I don’t know how to do this. I think, you know, I have a reputation. I’m a best seller and now I’m going to write terrible stuff? I’m scared.” She laughed and she said, “Oh, you think you’re supposed to be able to write without feeling scared?”

It was this great ah ha, we wait for the emotion to go away until it feels great to do what we need to do, but the reality is, you have to do that even when it doesn’t feel good the idea is sit down, don’t wait for the fear to go away.

Write while you’re feeling afraid. Write the dissertation while you’re feeling afraid. Walk into that room when it doesn’t feel right to walk in the room and recognize that you’re going to feel that and that’s what it feels like when you walk into a room of strangers and start to connect with people. Walk into that room while you’re feeling insecure and just keep moving and that’s what allows you to develop the emotional courage.

Isaiah: What are the four critical elements of leadership?

Peter: Emotional courage is one. There’s three other ones. It’s confidence in yourself, connection to others, commitment to purpose.

Confidence is not arrogance. Arrogance is I think I’m better than everybody else. Arrogance is born of insecurity. When I’m arrogant it’s actually because I’m not feeling confident. The people that think they’re better than everybody else, who consistently walk in feeling like they’re the smartest guy in the room, or the smartest woman in the room and they know everything. They’re not confident, actually. Confidence, and this is really important for academics.

Confidence is the willingness to say I don’t know something. It’s the willingness to be curious.

All of great academia, all great academic learning and teaching is based on curiosity. Right? You can’t be curious without also being confident. Curiosity is about the unknown. 

Connection to others is what’s going on between us and can I build trustworthy relationships and can I trust you and be trusted by you? Can I see you and appreciate you and be seen and appreciated by you? You can not lead without confidence and connection. There are people who are strong in one and not strong in the other. I could be super confident and not very connected, in which case it’s still all about me. Even if I’m willing to not know, even if I’m … It’s still all about me and I don’t care what’s going on for you. Conversely, I could be super connected to you but not particularly confident and then I lose myself. We all know people who will give themselves up to please the people around them.

Here’s a great test of it, especially as an academic, go into a conversation with an opinion and have a conversation with someone with the opposite opinion. This could be anything, it could be politics, it could be your area of expertise, if could be anything. Go in there and have a conversation with them where your opinion isn’t threatened by their opposite opinion and you both leave feeling respected and seen and appreciated. Right?

I don’t have to change my perspective because it’s different than yours, but I also don’t have to change your perspective because it makes me uncomfortable that it’s different than mine. The ability for us to really be able to hold both of those and hold the relationship at the same time is critical in terms of powerful leadership. That’s confidence and connection. 

Commitment to purpose is what is this bigger thing that we’re all going to align behind? This is something we do a lot of work in organizations. Helping them to create collaborative, coherent, productive movement in a particular direction. It’s also about making choices. About what you say no to in order to say yes to other things. That’s really hard. Commitment to purpose is about distinguishing signal from noise. It’s about focusing on what’s most important, right? I could be super committed in my area of study and to purpose and I could think that I’m really committed, but if it’s 15 years and I haven’t written my dissertation yet then the answer is I’m not very good at distinguishing signal from noise. 

Then finally emotional courage, which we just talked about, the willingness to feel. You can not make moves to develop your confidence in yourself, your connection to others and your commitment to purpose without also developing and leveraging your emotional courage, or willingness to feel things because any time you build that you’re going to feel stuff. By the way, this is not like a personality assessment where it’s okay to be strong in some things and weak in others. You really want to, if you’re going to be an effective leader you need to be strong in all four of these things.

Immigration Concepts For International PhDs In The USA: A Conversation with Brian Getson

Isaiah: What is the most common way for foreign nationals to apply for a green card based on employment?

Brian: Sure, so most foreign nationals who are working in the US that are not conducting scientific research, they have to go through what’s called the PERM Labor Certification process. That involves having an employer sponsor you for the green card. You can’t file on your own and the employer has to conduct recruitment that is mandated by the labor department such as putting ads in Sunday newspapers and conducting other recruitment online in order to show a lack of US worker availability.  In order to show a lack of US worker availability. So for jobs that do not involve scientific research, that’s generally the only option available to obtain a green card.

Isaiah: So what can PhDs do to avoid this and get a green card based on their research accomplishments?

So the theme of today is leadership, Isaiah. And that lends itself to being a leader in your research field. So if you have made scientific accomplishments that have impacted or influenced your field, then you can look to avoid this labor certification process and apply for a green card based on your own research accomplishments.

So everybody listening today should be looking to do that. And there’s three different types of categories where you can obtain a green card based on your research accomplishments. There’s the EB1A category, and that is called Extraordinary Ability Aliens. There is the EB1B category, and that is called Outstanding Professors and Researchers. And there is the EB2 National Interest Waiver category. And what I mean by EB1 and EB2 is there’s different classifications of green cards that is set forth by congress. And there’s something called the Visa Bulletin that is issued by the department of state each month. And if you would just Google Visa Bulletin, you would see it and you would see these different categories.

With EB1A and EB1B, there is a wait to apply for a green card for the entire world as well as China and India. So when I say the entire world, that means everybody other than China and India. And that’s for EB1A and EB1B. For the National Interest Waiver category, there is a wait for China and India, but not for the rest of the world. And this is a relatively new phenomenon. It started for the first time ever in my entire career this past October and it looks like it’s going to remain that way. So the advice now is, if you’re not from China or India, you really should only be thinking about applying in the NIW category because it’s easier than the EB1 category and you don’t have to wait.

There were times in the past where people not from China and India, for various reasons, could get the green card faster in the EB1 category, but it’s not the case anymore. And so if you are from China or India, you still wanna look to the EB1 category, but those are hard.

Watch the full podcast episode above to learn more about developing leadership from Peter Bregman and understanding US immigration from expert Brain Getson.

To get advanced access to the full length versions of these podcasts, as well as access to our live training webinars, exclusive training videos, case studies, industry insider documents, transition plan, and private online network, get on the waitlist for the Cheeky Scientist Association now.

The post Why Leadership Is The Most Important Transferable Skill For PhDs appeared first on Cheeky Scientist.

Skip ahead to:

1:20 – TOP TIP: It’s not you, academia is a cult
8:55 – Show Me the Data
22:45 – How PhDs Show Employers They Are The Right Fit For The Company Culture w/ Daniel Coyle
46:58 – Technical Director Career Track w/ Ron Hunter Ph.D.
1:00:46 – Top Mistakes Made By Researchers In The Green Card Application Process w/ Brian Getson

Do you know what company culture is?

Do you know how to find a company culture that is right for you?

In this episode of Cheeky Scientist Radio, bestselling author of The Culture Code, Daniel Coyle, discusses what company culture is, why it is powerful and how you can influence a company’s culture. Then Ron Hunter, PhD from Mérieux NutriSciences, shares insights from his non-linear career path and how he was hired as a Technical Director. Plus, immigration lawyer, Brian Getson will also join us to discuss top mistakes made by researchers in the green card application process.

About Our Guests

Daniel Coyle is the New York Times bestselling author of The Culture Code, The Talent Code, The Little Book of Talent, The Secret Race (co-authored with Tyler Hamilton), and other books.  Winner (with Hamilton) of the 2012 William Hill Sports Book of the Year Prize, he is a contributing editor for Outside Magazine, and works as a special advisor to the Cleveland Indians. Coyle lives in Cleveland, Ohio during the school year and in Homer, Alaska, during the summer with his wife Jen, and their four children.

Ron Hunter completed his PhD in analytical chemistry at Emory University. Next, Ron worked on projects related to toxicology and public health at the Environmental Protection Agency, Emory’s Rollins School of Public Health, and Centers for Disease Control. He then spent three years in a scientist role at The Coca Cola Company. Ron recently started a new job as the Technical Director of Chemistry for North America at Mérieux NutriSciences.

Brian H. Getson, Esq. has extensive experience preparing EB-1A, EB-1B and NIW petitions for scientific researchers throughout the United States. After graduating cum laude from Duke University, Mr. Getson attended The University of Pennsylvania Law School. Upon receiving his law degree in 1995, he joined the Firm and concentrated his practice on immigration law.

Mr. Getson is a frequent speaker on the green card process for scientific researchers at annual meetings of the world’s most prestigious scientific organizations including The American Society for Cell Biology, Materials Research Society, American Chemical Society, The Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology, American Physical Society, and The American Society of Mechanical Engineers.

Key Takeaways

1. Culture can be defined by how people interact and how people respond to change.

2. To learn about a company’s culture ask the employer to tell you a story about their group that would not happen anywhere else, ask how people are rewarded, and ask to speak with previous group members.

3. You can’t be opportunistic. Realize you’re not going to be a good fit for every company. If you’re just not vibing with a company, let it go and move on.

The Types Of Cultures In Industry And Why Company Culture Is So Important

The Harvard Business Review published an incredible article that breaks down the nuances of what makes a company culture.

The article identified two main concepts that define a culture:

1. How people interact
2. How people respond to change

From those concepts the authors created 8 distinct culture types. The two most common culture types were ‘Results’ and ‘Caring’ oriented cultures.

When you are doing informational interviews, asking questions about ‘how people respond to change’ and ‘how people interact’ is a great way to learn about the company culture. Are there strict lines of communication within the company? Or is it more flexible? Are there clear guide for what to do in uncertain situations or does change create dialogue where a collaborative effort is used to decide how to proceed?

Understanding the vulture of a company is key to demonstrating that you are a good fit and for finding a company where you will be happy.

Growth Everywhere reported that companies who have happy employees outperform their competition by 20% and that when employees are happy they are 12% more productive. Employers want to know that you will fit into their organization well, because it will impact the performance of the company.

How PhDs Show Employers They Are The Right Fit For The Company Culture: A Conversation With Daniel Coyle

Isaiah:I thought we could start very simple in just helping everyone here understand what culture is.

Daniel: Culture is an interaction that causes humans to add up to more than the sum of their parts. If you think about most human groups most of them add up to less. If you take the individual talents and the talents of the entire group, most human groups add up to less. Strong culture is when you can have a high ratio of what you’re producing versus what goes in. So it can be defined in a lot of different dimensions. That’s sort of my favorite because it’s what we sense.

When you walk into a good restaurant, when you walk into a good school, when you walk into a great family, you feel it. You can feel it in the interaction, so we’ve got this feeling that it’s kind of this magical thing that some people have in their DNA, that’s the way we typically thought about culture.

But what the science is showing us, and what I spent the last five years sort of obsessing about is, you can see it. You can measure it. It is a set of interactions and deep human grammar that’s in our brains. It feels like magic. It ain’t magic. It is a sentiment or actions that causes people to add up to more, and so that’s kind of the roughest definition of it.

But as you know, it’s more powerful than strategy. It’s more powerful than execution. It’s sort of the most powerful human force in the world.

Isaiah: How are employers evaluating job candidates on whether or not they’d be a good culture fit?

Daniel: There’s a few different ways to look at this. A lot of places don’t have a good definition of what culture is, and when they think about fit, they just think about hiring someone who’s like us, creating some kind of a monoculture. And that actually can be a sign that you’re maybe not in a great culture.

What’s smart employers are looking for is, they’re looking for people who can grow and learn, not hiring for skills, but hiring for people who could not just fit, but I think a better word is contribute from an employer point of view. If you hire for fit, you’re hiring under a narrow aperture. If you hire for contribution, how do you create more cognitive diversity? How do you get more minds in there? Great cultures have zero tolerance for brilliant jerks, zero. That was one of the things that I realized in researching the book.

They’re trying to test behavior, and you see more and more employers going, “Look, interviews are terrible predictors. Interviews don’t work very well, what works well is a behavioral sample.” So coming in for a sample day, working on a sample project, and during that project showing clear self awareness and ability to reflect and ability to confront mistakes and fix mistakes, because what business people realize today is that it is not a systems contest.

It is a learning contest.

It’s a group learning contest, and businesses that do that the best are going to win, and you cannot do that if you have people who are defensive when it comes to opportunities to learn.

Isaiah: Just shifting gears to the job candidate side for a company. What kind of things can you do to make sure you’re finding the right company with the right culture for you? But also showing the company that you actually understand culture.

Daniel: It’s a fascinating question, and there’s two questions that I think you can approach your prospective employers with, two dimensions to investigate in. Maybe there’s three things.

First, ask the employer to tell you a story about their group that would not happen anywhere else. Tell me a story about your group that doesn’t happen other places. That ends up being a very informal, very organic, but Litmus test. If they have three of four of those stories queued up. When you ask that question, “Tell me a story about something that doesn’t happen anywhere else,” you can quickly get to the things that really matter. Good groups have got 10 of those stories.

Another question you can ask is, “What gets rewarded around here?” It’s a difficult question, kind of a complex question to answer. “What gets rewarded around here? What kinds of performances really get awarded around here?” That matters.

The third thing you can do is go and see if you can talk to people who recently left the group. A good culture, a strong culture, will happily, happily connect you to people. The cultures that I visited, the cultures that I included in the book, they all really had learning and development as the core. They realized that this isn’t some kind of a kumbaya family they’re creating where we can all stay together the rest of our lives, but they do realize, they do make the promise to their people, “When you leave here you will be smarter.”

Technical Director Career Track: A Conversation with Ron Hunter, Ph.D.

Isaiah: What does transition look like? What are some of the key points, and if you could do it in two phases. All the challenges you faced both mindset-wise, maybe some technical challenges like a resume, or LinkedIn thing? And what did you change to get hired? And what about the actual transition story look like?

Ron: So I think it depends on their job. I went from a Postdoc to a government job. And then I went from government job to industry job. And now industry job to industry job. So, I think the first thing for let’s say government or industry is that the resumes look different. The resumes are very different. The networking is different. I think as you say in the Cheeky Scientist Association Network, “Go to the events where you wanna meet the right people at.” CDC people aren’t hanging out where Coca-Cola people are hanging out.

And then updating your resume to be more industry. So once I realized, hey, I wanna try to get an industry job, I needed to change my resume. Make it less federal and more succinct and then do the networking from that aspect of meeting people who worked in industry versus people who worked in government. That was one. And then the cultural transition from Postdoc to government job versus industry is that, as a Postdoc you’re still living that PhD life. And then when you get a “real job”, you have to learn how to navigate the politics, a different side of politics between the industry and government or any job that’s not academic.

Isaiah: How do you stay who you are and navigate your way through all those different cultures and have people like you in different networks and different cultures? What do you do to stay true to yourself but also to adapt to the culture?

Ron: I think the first thing that I always encourage people to do is always remember who you are principally, and to bring your whole self to whatever you do. You can keep that in the forefront of your mind, then everything else kind of flows accordingly. I’m also military kid, so I grew up traveling a lot. You kind of learn growing up that you need to make friends quick, because you’re only going to be there a short period of time. I think that in itself is a talent. And then you can’t be opportunistic. You’re not gonna be friends with everyone. You’re not going to be a good fit for every company. If, you’re just not vibing with someone, you just have to let that go.

Watch the full podcast episode above to learn from immigration expert Brain Getson, to get even more company culture insights from Daniel and to learn more about what it’s like to work in as a Technical Director from Ron.

To get advanced access to the full length versions of these podcasts, as well as access to our live training webinars, exclusive training videos, case studies, industry insider documents, transition plan, and private online network, get on the waitlist for the Cheeky Scientist Association now.

The post How PhDs Show Employers They Are The Right Fit For The Company Culture (Cheeky Scientist Radio) appeared first on Cheeky Scientist.

Skip ahead to:

1:20 – TOP TIP: Incorrect Job Search Workflow
8:30 – Show Me the Data
19:00 – How To Avoid Being The Awkward PhD No One Wants To Hire w/ Jordan Harbinger
56:30 – Principal Scientist Career Track w/ Scot Matkovich Ph.D.

Tired of being perceived as an awkward PhD? 

Want to be better at networking and relationship building?

In this episode of Cheeky Scientist Radio, Jordan Harbinger gives practical strategies to improve your networking ability, to grow your confidence, and discusses the best ways to create meaningful professional relationships. Then Scot Matkovich, PhD comes on to discuss what it’s like to work in industry R&D and why he chose to make the switch from academia to industry. 

About Our Guests

Jordan Harbinger, often referred to as “The Larry King of podcasting,” is a Wall Street lawyer turned interview talk show host, and communications & social dynamics expert.

Jordan has hosted a top 50 iTunes podcast (The Jordan Harbinger Show) for over a decade which receives over 4 million downloads per month, making the show one of the most popular podcasts in the world.  On The Jordan Harbinger Show, Jordan deconstructs the playbooks of the most successful people on earth and shares their strategies, perspectives, and practical insights with the rest of us.

Jordan’s business sense, extensive knowledge of the industry, and contemporary approach to teaching make him one of the most sought-after coaches in the world.

Scot Matkovich completed his PhD at the University of Melbourne.

He then relocated to the USA and continued to make contributions to many aspects of cardiovascular research. Scot recently joined Eli Lilly as a Principal Research Scientist with the Diabetes and Cardiovascular Complications Group, where he is enjoying being more closely connected to interventions that will directly benefit heart failure patients.

In his spare time, Scot is a musician and photographer.

Key Takeaways

1. Networking is only awkward if you reach out with an ask before adding value. Use the ABG maxim – Always Be Giving.

2. Your non-verbal communication is key to the way you are perceived, practice having open and confident body language.

3. Your freedom to do research and ability to make an impact on society will increase when working in industry R&D.

The Science Behind Being Charismatic 

A study, published in Computers in Human Behavior, looked at the difference between sort of how Steve Jobs spoke versus a reference sample of hundreds of other prominent speakers. They found that Steve Jobs had a distinct tone of voice.  His voice was higher than the majority of these speakers and the standard deviation of his pitch level was much higher than the other speakers. Meaning that his pitch level varied a lot. His speaking was the opposite of monotone. 

Another study, published in The Leadership Quarterly, examined how charisma affects the success of a company. And specifically one of the items they researched was how does charisma effects shareholder return depending on the received market certainty. The study found that when the market was perceived being high the charisma of the CEO really increased shareholder return. Resulting on average in $130 million in wealth creation in just one year. In times of uncertainty people are more willing to get behind someone who is charismatic. 

How To Avoid Being The Awkward PhD No One Wants To Hire: A Conversation With Jordan Harbinger

Isaiah: So how do you help someone A) gain self awareness over how they’re coming across, and then B) once they are aware that they’re maybe a bit deficient in that area, how do you try to get them to increase their performance? Especially in terms of in-person interactions?

Jordan: Sure. So there’s a couple of things we can do to target specific weak points. One, I always try to break things down to non-verbal communication. It doesn’t always come down to that, it often does. So when we find people that are, and this is just one specific instance, because it’s impossible to cover every single outcome or iteration of this, but when we see people who are hunched over computers all day, studying, reading, grading papers, typing, writing, whatever it is, we often find that there’s a closed and unfriendly looking posture, even if that person is friendly enough.

And so something that I like to do is open people up and we use the doorway drill. And what this is essentially is every time you walk through a doorway, you would straighten up your posture, chest out a little bit, shoulders back. You don’t have to exaggerate it, you’ll look kind of silly. But just shoulders back, chin up, chest up, smile on your face, open, positive, confident body language. And the idea is we’re walking through doorways so many times during the day that we reset ourselves a lot. And I know what’s going to happen is as soon as people hear this they’re going to go through one door and do it and go “that’s cool” and then they’re going to walk through 500 more doors in the next week and not do it one single time.

So what I recommend people do is grab those little post-it notes that usually aren’t worth the paper they’re used for because they’re too tiny. The bright yellow or pink or green ones. Stick them up on the doorframe at eye level. At what that will do is that will interrupt your autopilot response so when you’re walking through your office door, your bathroom door, your bedroom door, your front door, or whatever it is in your house or office, you go “What’s that post-it note? Oh right, I’m supposed to straighten up and reset my posture.” You don’t have to write anything on it. People don’t have to go “What’s that post-it note for?” It’s just a post-it note. Doesn’t matter. And you’ll reset your body language. And you’ll start to develop that as a habit. Eventually you won’t need the post-it notes.

And what that does is it creates a default open, positive and upright posture. And what that does is when people … when we become a blip on other people’s radar, we treat them as the first impression dictates. So if someone walks in and they’re hunched over and they’re looking at their phone, we think this person’s busy, they’re closed off, maybe they’re cranky, we don’t know. But if someone walks in and they’re upright and they’re positive and they’re smiling, we think oh, this is a friendly, outgoing person. And we start to treat people as such. And when people start to treat us a certain way, that actually trains the way that we see ourselves and the way that we behave, because we’re really just reacting to the environment around us.

So once people start to talk to us and chat us up and treat us like we’re charismatic, outgoing and friendly, we start to behave as such. So really these post-it notes create this virtuous cycle where you’ve got great body language, non-verbal communication, people start treating you like somebody who behaves that way, and then we’re training other people how to treat us, and by doing so, we start to live into that particular reputation.

Isaiah: So what’s the best way to start networking now if you’re already behind? Let’s say, you need a job yesterday. What are just some quick things that you might suggest to do if you’re desperate?

Jordan: Sure. So the way to start this is one, layoff life lines is a great exercise to do this. But that’s not a daily practice. That’s something that you’ll use to re-engage some relationships that you’ve let fall by the wayside and kick off the rust. But it’s about consistency and daily practice.

One of the daily practices that I do every day is, I don’t have a fancy name for it, it’s called text re-engage. I’m open to ideas on what we call this.

But essentially what we do is whenever I’m in line for coffee or I’m waiting for a bus or something like that or an airline lounge or gate, instead of scrolling through Instagram mindlessly, what I’ll do is I’ll go open up my phone. I’ll scroll into my text message app, and you know, you’ve got those messages all the way at the bottom where it’s like oh yeah, I had lunch with them at a financial conference in San Diego three years ago and then never kept in touch. What I’ll do is I’ll find the people at the bottom of that text message list, because those are the sort of weaker and dormant ties. And I will reach out to those people. And it’s sort of script, but it’s more of structure, and the structure’s important.

Essentially this will re-engage people, and you’ll start conversations. But you have to do it in the right way. First of all, you say hello, and you use their name. That way they know it’s not some sort of mass text that you’re sending to 85 different people or it’s not some software that you’ve got. And then you say it’s been a couple of years or several months or whatever since we met at, and ideally if you remember where you met them you put that in there. If you don’t, don’t worry about it. You can say it’s been awhile since we talked, if you don’t know where you met. And then you can say I’d love to hear the latest what’s going on with you, for me I’m, and then just put like one line, for me I’m doing my PhD, I’m still hanging out studying in Germany, just got married, whatever it is.

You throw that in there and you say I’d love to hear the latest from you. I’ve been bad keeping in touch and I’m going to remedy that. And then you say no rush on the reply. Hope to hear from you soon. And then you sign your name. You’ve got to sign your name otherwise it’s like “new phone, who this” or worse, they’re embarrassed that they don’t remember you or that they … If I don’t have your number saved, I can either say oh my gosh, this is awkward, who is this? Or I can just ignore it and you’ll never know that I did get the text. So sign off with your name.

Isaiah: So you’re reaching out. There is purpose here. To build your network because opportunities come from it. And I think a lot of us really shift into that gear of wanting to drive a result. How do you stay out of that mindset so you can come across as authentically wanting to build a relationship?

Jordan: There’s a popular sales maxim called ABC, always be closing. Well, I prefer ABG, which means “always be generous” or “always be giving”. And what this means is that we want to help other people without the attachment of getting anything in return.

And so if I’m doing the text re-engage and one week somebody comes back to me and says “Yeah, I’ve got a book coming out but I need an editor because my other editor quit” and then I meet somebody else and they’re editing, I go oh, okay, I’m just going to connect these two people in my network. I’m not connecting them because one day I need free editing and one day I need free book writing. I’m not thinking about what’s in it for me at all. All I’m trying to do is connect other people in my network to each other, and that is my value add. Because a lot of people go, if I’m a graphic designer “I can’t just give free graphics to everyone.” You’re not doing the legwork there. What you’re doing is taking your existing network nodes and tying them together. Which makes this process really scalable. This isn’t five hours of free work that you’re going to do for everyone every day.

You could make 100 introductions a week and it probably wouldn’t even dent your productivity time. Because it’s just an email that goes to each party and then connects to each person. And some people go “Well, I want to make a lot of introductions.” By the time you’re making dozens and dozens of introductions, you should just hire an assistant that can do this for you because your network is so expansive that you’re probably seeing a lot of ROI from it. But with ABG, or always be giving instead of always be closing, this is something that is a little bit hard to explain because a lot of people are like “But then you secretly do want something.” The answer to that is more or less, yes, but it’s not something specific and it doesn’t have to come from those people.

So if I make 100 networking connections and I’m just giving value first and I’m not keeping score and thinking oh, I’m going to get something from them, I can help 100 people. If 99 of them never help me back with anything, who cares? I’ve banked a bunch of good will, I helped out a bunch of good people. They’ve got a bunch of stuff done. And then when you need something, you can sort of float that out to your network and you’ll have people clamoring and climbing over each other to help you because they owe you one. And occasionally, you’ll find one person who goes “Hey, you know, that introduction you made three years ago resulted in a business. We would love to sponsor your show or have you fly out and speak” or “We owe you big time.” You find people where you introduced them to their new career, their significant other, their wife, whatever, husband. That’s kind of a big deal. It’s a position of honor.

Principal Scientist Career Track: A Conversation with Scot Matkovich, Ph.D.

Isaiah: Why did you choose to go into R&D in industry?

Scot: It’s very much a continuation of what I think have been life aims of sorts for the last 20 years. I only started a PhD because I had, perhaps not a particularly focused goal in mind of what kind of disease research I wanted to do, but I wanted to work in a way that would ultimately make an impact on the health of people suffering diseases. A lot of friends have asked me, “Well, why didn’t you become a physician,” or go into something like that and I supposed I could have, but at the time of my life where I had to make decisions like that I was your archetypal shy nerd, didn’t really want to engage with a whole lot of people. That is still a fundamental part of my personality but I think some of the shell has disappeared over the last several years.

So I always wanted to make an impact in human health because I really didn’t know much different than following the traditional academic path and you must remember, growing up and going to school in Australia, essentially, there is not an R&D industry of sorts there. It’s too small a country and too small an environment to support most of that. So I went along a traditional academic path, I was encouraged to post-doc in the US, which I did in order to take advantage of the greater infrastructure here and the greater number of opportunities.

It took a while going down that path before I realized that I wasn’t really having the kind of impact on health research that I might have wanted to and I certainly began to realize that within the academic system, unless you’re quite far up the pyramid, it can be very difficult to be terribly influential, and it’s not that I had a personality need that I had to run the whole show or figure everything out, but I did want to be doing something that I felt was impactful even though I eventually acquired a junior faculty position and had the opportunity to run my own lab for a while.

That grind of convincing a relatively small group of your peers at the NIH that what you are doing is important really got to me and I think the other thing that got to me was a lot very well-meaning advice from people who had been successful in the system saying, “You know, you’re just going to have to focus on something very small at the start. You’re going to have to play by everybody’s rules. You’re going to have to do what you have to do in order to get your grants funded, and then once you’ve achieved some sort of level of seniority, then you can go off and do what you want to.”

I think as soon as that advice started percolating through, I thought, I’ve got to get the hell out of here. This is not compatible with my aims. So I’ve now been with Lilly for three and a little months, a reasonably short amount of time, and yet, I can tell you that everyday I am sitting in rooms of really smart, really hardworking dedicated people who are all trying to get to that same goal of improving human health without having to fuss about will the study section like my grant proposal, or did I use this word or that word or this phrase in my discussion that’s going to captivate their attention?

All of that sort of nonsense has been blown away and I feel like I’m getting on with the job in a way that I simply haven’t for most of my professional life.

Watch the full podcast episode above to get even more networking and communication insights from Jordan and learn more about what it’s like to work in r&D in industry from Scot.

To get advanced access to the full length versions of these podcasts, as well as access to our live training webinars, exclusive training videos, case studies, industry insider documents, transition plan, and private online network, get on the waitlist for the Cheeky Scientist Association now.

The post How To Avoid Being The Awkward PhD No One Wants To Hire (Cheeky Scientist Radio) appeared first on Cheeky Scientist.

Skip ahead to:

7:17 – TOP TIP: How To Give An Industry Interview Presentation
12:38 – Show Me the Data
28:08 – Communication And Building Consensus For PhDs w/ Crystal Dilworth, Ph.D.
49:26 – Careers In Sales & Business Development w/ Jack O’Sullivan Ph.D.

Are you highlighting your communication skills throughout your job search?

Interested in consulting, sales or business development?

In this episode of Cheeky Scientist Radio, Crystal Dilworth, Ph.D. talks to us about how she leveraged her STEM PhD background to do a very interesting type of consulting that relies on her communication and transferable skills. Then Jack O’Sullivan comes on to discuss how PhDs can excel in sales role and how communication plays a key role in sales and business development.

About Our Guests

Crystal Dilworth has a Ph.D. in molecular neuroscience from Caltech.  She is co-founder of The Nerd Brigade, an organization of award winning science communicators and edutainers working to diversify the face of science in mainstream media worldwide. Crystal’s career in science communication was launched with the delivery of a TEDxYouth talk titled “The Myth of the Scientist” and her casting in The PHD Movie & The PHD Movie2: Still In Grad School. These projects provided a visible platform from which she continues to be a vocal advocate for STEM literacy and gender equity & inclusion.

As a consultant Crystal works with clients across all fields to break down barriers presented by technical jargon. She especially enjoys working with early stage startup founders to facilitate dialogue, build consensus, and ultimately create accurate and effective communication strategies involving science technology engineering and math (STEM).

Dr. Dilworth is a violinist, former nationally ranked Rhythmic Gymnast, former professional modern dancer and choreographer. While she left this career path to focus on science, she applies the skills she developed in these roles to her work in consulting.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/crystal-dilworth-phd-4405659b/

Jack O’Sullivan completed his PhD in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology at University College Dublin. Jack’s career in sales and business development began with his role as Training and Sales Specialist in the non profit sector. Since then he transitioned to an Area Sales Manager position for Triple Red and even was a Sales Executive for Team Cheeky. He has worn a number of hats from Sales Executive to Training Specialist and Business Development Executive.

In addition to rock climbing, Jack’s passions include connecting with people and getting his customers the right cutting edge products to support their research goals. He is currently the Sales Manager for Stratech Scientific Ltd., one of the leading suppliers of antibodies and reagents the UK.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackos/

Key Takeaways

1. Jobs that require high communication skills are in higher demand and make more money than jobs that don’t require these skills.

2. Your PhD will get you in the door, it will get an employers attention, but what you say will earn you the job.

3. Number one skill for pursuing a career in sales is active listening.

Your Ability To Communication Effectively Influences Your Hirability

A survey from the National Association of Colleges and Employers asked about the key attributes employers seek on students resumes. Employers rated what they found most valuable on a resume. The number one item on that list, problem solving, where 82.9% of respondents said that showing problem solving skills was valuable on a resume. 

Employers want to know if you can work through a problem from beginning to end without help. Getting a PhD is like getting a degree in troubleshooting, that is what you know how do better than anyone else, and that’s what problem solving is.

The survey also found that 80.3% of employers said that written communication is very valuable to have on your resume and  67.5% of employers said that that demonstrating your ability to communicate verbally was very valuable on a resume.

The final thing to note about this survey was that technical skills were valued less than: problem solving, working with a team, communication, leadership, work ethic, initiative, detail oriented, flexibility. So, if you’re thinking your technical skills are what are going to get you hired, no. Don’t forget those other 10 or so items that are above it. They are crucial.

A study published in Quarterly Journal of Economics found that not only is the demand for communication skills increasing but jobs that require these skills earn a higher salary. The study found that the number of jobs that require math and communication skills rose by 7.2% while those jobs that require math skills but not communication actually decreased by 3.3%. And those jobs that combine math and communication have seen a steady 26% increase in salary, while comparable jobs that don’t require as much communication have only seen a 5.9% increase in salary. 

Communication And Building Consensus As a PhD: A Conversation With Crystal Dilworth, Ph.D.

Isaiah:I do want to hear about what do you do now, Crystal? What is consulting? It seems elusive, can you elaborate?

Crystal: I started choreographing musicals [during grad school] at Caltech. So scientists and engineers that have never danced, probably don’t sing, some of them who never have been on stage before and the come to do this thing because it’s completely different from their daily work.

I could talk to both sides. I have the really artsy actor/director on one side. He speaks in word clouds, there’s no structure, it’s very conceptual and woo-woo and you have Caltech and NASA scientists and engineers on the other side who respond to that lack of structure with fear, with anger, and with panic. So even though I was the choreographer, my real role was to take the crazy, translate it in to structure and give it to scientists and engineers and then to take their concerns back and mold it in to a more fluid, experimental language that our actor/director could say “Oh, they’re engaging with me on the creative process.”

This is exactly what I do in consulting.

Isaiah: How would you train PhDs to deal with this nonsense word cloud or how would you help them understand it. How would you bridge that gap?

Crystal: Part of it is reframing the problem. Because they come to rehearsal thinking you’re the director, you know what’s going on. I’m learning and you’re gonna tell me what to do. That’s not what the arts is. It’s a collaborative and creative process.

Upscaling really quickly to a point where they’re able to contribute collaboratively, they understand the space. So helping them map the space. This is what the director is thinking about in the things that he’s managing.

These are really smart people, they manage projects for NASA, they’ve put robots on other planets. So if you tell them all the different levers, and all of the different things that they can start thinking about, they’ll have ideas and making sure that those ideas are heard is really the first step to them feeling competent in the space and that reduces the emotional reactivity.

Isaiah: So basically you just provide clarity and you provide ownership?

Crystal: Exactly. And they know where the boundaries are and where they aren’t. So in a similar way, if I’m working with a highly technical startup founder, that’s incredibly nervous or resistant to working with a PR or marketing firm, but their major funder has told them, “Hey, you’re gonna work with this firm.” They see a bunch of slick fast-talking guys in suits that don’t know anything about their technical product. This is their baby that’s being dressed up like a clown and put out on a stage to tap dance and they’re very, very emotional about it.

Yeah so if you can define a few parameters, a few ways that they can communicate or a few flags that they can put in the sand and just be like this isn’t moving, and this isn’t moving and we respect that. Now let’s talk about this creative space in between. They feel a little more protected by the structure.

Isaiah: What are the key transferable skills that you got, especially with your stem background or your dancing background, etc, that have allowed you to switch gears? That have allowed you to jump into different realms and apply your knowledge anywhere to learn anything?

I want this answer to be really profound, but it’s going to be disappointingly plebeian. I think that one, the Phd, and the Phd from Caltech gets me in the door. When you’re talking to a CEO of one of … A major international company, Fortune 500 company, they want to know that they’re worth the attention of one of the top minds and that’s how my consulting firm would bill me. I’ve done nothing except graduate, and there’s a dollar value on that. Just keep that in mind for all of you out there.

I’m getting my project manager in the door because he can say, “I’ve got a top neuroscientist on my team.” That’s what my degree is doing. I haven’t even opened my mouth. And then, you also can get them to listen a little bit better. I’m always brought in when there’s highly technical people, CEOs, usually an engineer, and a business process mismatch. The technical people will listen to me because I’m one of them, and the suits will listen to me because I’m smarter than them. That’s what they think, and they’re afraid of that, so we have to be very careful to negotiate that.

And then you’ve got everyone’s attention, and you can start to do some real work, and you can start to get them to trust talking to each other is going to be okay. That’s in consulting, it’s really about facilitating the experts, which is not you, in finding the right answer. Sometimes they just need you to be in the room.

Careers In Sales And Business Development: A Conversation with Jack O’Sullivan, Ph.D.

Isaiah: How important has your mastery of problem solving been to getting hired in industry in your career development?

Jack: Yeah. We know that as PhDs, we’re good at troubleshooting. We say, “Oh yeah, I’m great at working through problems.” But I don’t think we really know.

I don’t think people understand that most people, who aren’t PhDs, come across the problem they go, “Oh, it’s a problem,” and they escalate it, right? Because in normal business, you escalate up, you go, “Oh, what do I do, next person in the chain?” “Oh, I don’t know, what do you do, next person in the chain?”

And they don’t know how to get in and get stuck in and really fix things. What I noticed with PhDs, and I’ve seen this because I’ve worked in sales teams with lots of … Maybe half PhDs and half not PhDs, and the PhDs always go, “Oh, when this occurs, I’ll usually do this, this, this, this and this.” The other salespeople go, “Oh, I normally just get stuck and call someone.”

Jack: Yeah, and I’d love to ask the chat a question at this point. What do you think is the number one? I actually literally just did this with the sales team. I asked them, “What do you think the number one trait of a salesperson is?”

reakiBng my heart here. One person said that the number one skill is pushiness, and it’s another really bad misconception, and actually I spend a lot of time with my sales team right now saying it’s really important to read the signs when you need to back off, right? I think pushiness is every bad salesperson you’ve ever met. If you ever feel like someone’s being pushy, it’s a bad sign.

I like trust building and customer needs, problem solving, yes, very important. Social skills, I don’t think you need social skills sometimes. I’ll tell you some stories about some salespeople who are excellent without social skills, but excellent followup, excellent technical skills.

Active listening. Active listening is massive. This is why introverts can be salespeople, because the very best salesperson, one of the best sales people I ever met or worked with, she just said nothing at meetings. What happens when you say nothing?

Isaiah: People talk. They fill the space. They tell you their problems. What you’re doing right now.

Jack: Exactly. You can’t help but talk because you want to fill this space, right? The active listening is … And being introverted, they’re all massive pros. What you should want to do, if you want to be a salesperson as you should, you have to do … Someone said drive and motivation. It is important. You do actually have to want to be in sales. You want to have to sell a product. What helps me and what I’ve always done and I think helps the most PhDs is, I say, “Choose a product that you truly, truly believe in. A product or service or company, and as long as you really believe, you can push really hard for that thing. You can do what’s needed and to make a sale because you know that this is right for the customer. You know this is the best thing.”

I think that really helped me give the conviction to know that what I’m doing has purpose because that’s always been really important to me, to have purpose, to have impact and that’s why I left academia because I felt like I couldn’t make an impact anymore.

Watch the full podcast episode above to get even more insight into how you can leverage your communication and problem solving skills to get hired into a PhD level career.

To get advanced access to the full length versions of these podcasts, as well as access to our live training webinars, exclusive training videos, case studies, industry insider documents, transition plan, and private online network, get on the waitlist for the Cheeky Scientist Association now.

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