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Barbara C. Crosby, Ph.D. is associate professor emerita at the Hubert H. Humphrey School of Public Affairs and former academic co-director of the Center for Integrative Leadership at the University of Minnesota. In 2017 she received the Leslie A. Whittington Excellence in Teaching Award from the Network of Schools of Public Policy, Affairs and Administration (NASPAA). She is a fellow of the Leadership Trust in the UK, and during 2002-03, she was a visiting fellow at the University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, Scotland.  She is the author of Teaching Leadership: An Integrative Approach (2016), Leadership for Global Citizenship (1999), and co-author with John M. Bryson of Leadership for the Common Good: Tackling Public Problems in a Shared-Power World  (2d. ed. 2005).  She served many years on the editorial board of Leadership Quarterly.  She and John M. Bryson were joint winners of the 2019 Keith G. Provan Award for Outstanding Contributions to Empirical Theory from the Public and Nonprofit Division of the Academy of Management.

Quotes from This Episode 

• "I think about these concentric circles. And so if we think about just a dyad relationship, that’s one center of the circle. Then we move out to the group, then to organizational, to the community, to country, and to the world."
• "Context involves identifying ecological, economic, political, sociological, technological trends and developments that might open opportunities for leadership."
• "Most of us need to be engaged followers most of the time. I think having a sense of what it takes to be an engaged follower is a helpful part of leadership, too."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Center for Integrative Leadership
• Begin Again by Eddie Glaude
• Soul of America by Jon Meacham
• Leadership in Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns Goodwin

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Dr. Steve Mortenson is an award-winning teacher and researcher. Steve's mission is to help people help themselves by sharing transformative tools for building personal skills and relational effectiveness. He received his Ph.D. in Communication from Purdue University. Recipient of the Excellence in Teaching Award, Dr. Mortenson teaches and publishes at the University of Delaware. He has designed and conducted leadership development seminars and communication workshops for the U.S. State Department’s International Leadership Programs, The National Association for Environmental Management, Delaware Psychological Association, The Horn Institute, and the Blue Hen Leadership Program.


Steve's TED Talks

• Projecting Your Personal Shadow
• Adventure and the Problem of the Hero

A Sample of Steve's Scholarship

• Confronting implicit and benevolent bias in teams
• A fluency of feeling: Exploring cultural and individual differences (and similarities) related to skilled emotional support

Quotes From This Episode

• "One of the things that I’ve asked my students is what new strengths has the pandemic brought out in you? I talk about 'dark gifts of the pandemic' - like, I’ve got a lot more patience than I used to, because I don’t have a choice."
• "The way I talk about supportive confrontation...you have to support the person while you critique their behavior. Otherwise, it’s difficult for them to hear what you’re trying to say."
• On people who are comfortable having difficult conversations - "they don’t get set off, they’re able to listen, they’re more comfortable in their own skin."
• "We need to see that there’s another side to our personality and the things we’re afraid of have a lot of really important potential for us. And that the things that we rely on are also the root of our dysfunctions."
• "What are you good at? But when does it also undermine you?"
• "Authentic anger is - you crossed a line with me - there’s a clear transgression - I can tell you what it is. And I can tell you, this is why I’m mad."
• "Jung said that you can show somebody their shadow, and they’ll kind of deal with it. You show somebody their genius, they’ll fight you every step of the way."
• "I want us to have a fuller understanding of our identities, not just the parts we’re comfortable with."

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Book: Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life by Zweig and Wolf
• Book: Living an Examined Life: Wisdom for the Second Half of the Journey by Hollis
• Film: In and Of Itself

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Dr. Axel Meierhoefer is a retired U. S. Air Force officer and the founder of Ideal Wealth Grower - an educational organization helping people get away from exchanging time for money and building an asset-based portfolio using residential real estate. Through teaching, online learning, mentoring, and coaching, Ideal Wealth Grower helps members help themselves find success. He started his first company in 2005, focusing on consulting, employee skill development, and program management. Axel is an entrepreneurial leader who thrives in change-oriented environments and drives constant oversight, accountability, coaching, mentoring, and financial planning.

Axel's Website

• Ideal Wealth Grower 

Quotes From This Episode

• "For me, it's  a legacy in the context of how do I provide for my family and ultimately turn over what we did to my daughter?"
• "So it's constantly evolving, but there has never been an intention to really make it big."
• "As soon as you get in that mindset, you’re creating basically your future, rather than sitting there and letting the future happen to you."
• "I would say you have people in a victim mindset, and you have people in a creative or creator mindset... I'm setting a goal, I'm going to find the energy to go after something."
• "I think it goes back to the core term community. If we see ourselves as a community, then there shouldn't be a question that the weaker ones get support from the stronger ones."
• "I would go as far as saying the system we're running was probably okay, for the 60s and 70s... It's not okay in the 21st century."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• The Wealthy Gardener by John Soforic 
• James Clear on First Principles Thinking

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Dr. William (Willy) Donaldson is a Professor of Management at the Joseph W. Luter, III School of Business at Christopher Newport University. Willy has over 30 years of experience as a board member and president and has been CEO of eight companies including a publicly-traded company and an international joint-venture. Willy is the Founder and President of Strategic Venture Planning, a management consulting firm that helps boards, investors and senior management teams maximize results. His experience runs from start-up to International 50 companies, private and public companies, from services to manufacturing, from low to high tech, and from for-profit to not-for-profit. He is a member of the International Council on Systems Engineering, where he chairs the Enterprise Systems working group world-wide.


Book by Willy Donaldson

• Simple Complexity 

Quotes From This Episode

• "Systems thinking really is a worldview."
• "Dana Meadows’ really sparse, elegant definition of a system is 'a set of elements that interrelate for a particular purpose or characteristics that have behaviors.'"
• "The leader is the system architect...They need to understand that they are managing and running and leading a system."
• "The first thing is to be humble and realize you don’t know it all, and that’s really a challenge...I don’t see enough humility in leadership."
• "You’ve got to realize how your biases get assembled through the silos that you come up through in the organization. If you came up out of finance, you view the world as finance or operations."
• "Leaders don’t realize how much the system drives behaviors."
• "Building a company that’s sort of poised on a razor’s edge of change is hard to do when you have to get people comfortable in that environment."
• "Bounded systems are ones that have some form of governance that’s readily apparent. It may not be good governance, but there is a group or somebody who’s responsible - maybe a board of directors, an association, etc. Unbounded systems are natural systems that we can’t do anything about."
• "An inversion has to occur, where followership becomes the most important function and followers have to rise up and demand leadership of an ilk that is humble and does use systems thinking."
• "Academics is so siloed into these swim lanes - chemistry, physics, math, accounting, finance - that we don’t cross disciplines, we don’t share our disciplinary knowledge, we use different language to talk about the same phenomenon."
• "Systems have this property called an emergent property where things emerge from the system, it’s not just a collection of parts, but they actually start to evolve and take on a character of their own. And culture is an emergent property of a system."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Farnam Street Blog
• Hyper Learning by Ed Hess
• Thinking in Systems: A Primer by Donella H. Meadows  
• Systems Thinking Made Simple: New Hope for Solving Wicked Problems Paperback by Derek & Laura Cabrera 

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"In the complex environment of the current business world, leaders often will be called upon to act against their instincts. They will need to know when to share power and when to wield it alone, when to look to the wisdom of the group and when to take their own counsel. A deep understanding of context, the ability to embrace complexity and paradox, and a willingness to flexibly change leadership style will be required for leaders who want to make things happen in a time of increasing uncertainty." - Snowden and Boone

About Dave and Mary

• Dave Snowden on LinkedIn
• Mary Boone on Linkedin

Harvard Business Review Article

• A Leader’s Framework for Decision Making 

Cognitive Edge

• Cognitive Edge Website
  • Sensemaker
  • Blog

Publications by Dave Snowden

• Managing Complexity (and Chaos) in Times of Crisis. A Field Guide for Decision Makers Inspired by the Cynefin Framework 
• Cynefin - Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World 
• Bramble Bushes in a Thicket

Publications by Mary Boone

• Leadership and the Computer
• Managing Interactively: Executing Business Strategy, Improving Communication, and Creating a Knowledge-Sharing Culture

Quotes From This Episode

• "Complex adaptive systems are deeply entangled. And I think that's the key metaphor for complexity. Everything is entangled with everything else...Juarrero famously said, 'it's like bramble bushes in a thicket.'"
• "It’s so clear to me now, why people struggle so much with approaches to leadership, because most of them were developed for an ordered environment...they weren’t really developed for handling the complexity and the chaos."
• "If you know anything about the natural science, you know that connections matter more than things. So the work we’re doing on leadership development is all about changing connectivity. For leaders, and we don’t talk about qualities or competencies, we put them in situations where their connections constantly change and shift."
• "Please don’t confuse complexity with systems thinking. It’s completely different."
• "The biggest mistake of the last three decades has been to define where we want to be and try and close the gap."
• "The reality is, the most an individual is, is a catalyst or a nexus point in a complex series of interactions. Good leaders learn to manage that."

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Derry Girls

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Laura Guilliam manages leadership research and development projects at Progressive Insurance. Her primary interest is the individual and cultural impact of emotionally intelligent leaders—creating and sustaining positive organizational relationships within virtual and in-office work environments. Laura brings 26 years of practitioner experience to the ongoing study of organizational development and change. 

She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Education from the University of Akron, a Master of Science in Project Management from Boston University, and a Master of Science in Positive Organizational Development and Change from Case Western Reserve University. She also earned a certificate of Appreciative Inquiry in Positive Business and Societal Change and a certificate in Emotionally Intelligent Leadership and Executive Coaching at CWRU. Laura is currently working on her Executive Ph.D. in Values-Driven Leadership from Benedictine University, Chicago.

Quotes From This Episode

• (Regarding Progressive) "We are a company that believes relationships are the core of everything. "
• "I love supporting leaders. I think it’s one of the hardest, most selfless jobs, and I love supporting people who’ve invested and said, 'I want to lead people.' So that’s what I’ve made my mission, and I will always serve that group."
• "Our interactions have positive and negative charges; our words have positive and negative charges, our gestures have positive and negative charges. If you’re responsible, and you care about the relationships, you will mindfully pay attention to how many of those you deliver.” 
• "So these are kinds of things that we're teaching, in our virtual leadership...it's virtual 101 - pay attention to the positive and negative that you deliver day-in and day-out to your people because they're getting bombarded with negative all day long. So what are you doing to help them get through that?"
• "So this is really important in the leadership, really important in the virtual space, to pay attention to these most positive and, and negative charges, rarely will you lay your head down at night and say, 'Gosh, today was completely neutral, I had neither good nor bad.'"
• "There's so much fantastic work done in the academic field that needs to get in the hands of practitioners. "
• "We're coming up with creative ways to stay connected and build our relationships. So I'd like to tap into that and see how leaders are getting creative."
• "The one thing that COVID didn’t take from us was relationships. And so that’s what we have. And that’s what we’re left with, and obviously, it’s a passion point of mine...How do I help my leaders protect those relationships?"

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• The Hidden Brain
• The Overwhelmed Brain
• The Daily - The New York Times

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Catherine M. Rymsha, EdD,  is a lecturer at the University of Massachusetts, Lowell, where she teaches courses on leadership. Catherine spent more than ten years in marketing and communication leadership roles ranging from marketing healthcare conferences to writing speeches on payment card security. She now leads learning and development for a software company. Between her academic and professional experience, she has taught courses on leadership, feedback, and career to global leaders across an array of industries.

Catherine's Work

• Book - The Leadership Decision
• Ted Talk -  Want to become a better leader? Here's how. Just listen.

Quotes From This Episode

• "Establishing a leadership brand is similar to that of a corporate brand."
• "Once you make that decision, to be a leader you need to think about your life overall."
• "A lot of times leaders fail to get feedback on how others perceive their brand."
• "A very wise thing for leaders to be aware of is that it's okay to show vulnerability...it can be a way for leaders to connect in a different way...and can speak volumes for their brand."

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Resource: Project Implicit at Harvard
• Show: Surviving Death

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Brad Jackson is Associate Dean of Strategic Engagement at Waikato Management School in New Zealand. He also serves as Professor of Leadership and Governance. Jackson has published several books — Management Gurus and Management Fashions, Organisational Behaviour in New Zealand, Demystifying Business Celebrity, and Revitalising Leadership. He has also co-edited the Sage Handbook of Leadership and Major Works in Leadership. He is a former co-editor of the journal, Leadership.

Select Publications by Dr. Brad Jackson

• Book - A Very Short, Fairly Interesting, and Reasonably Cheap Book About Studying Leadership
• Book -  The Hero Manager - Learning from New Zealand's Top Chief Executives
• Article - The Power of Place in Public Leadership Research and Development

Quotes From This Episode

• "If you want to get to know a place, try to change something."
• "I suppose as you go through your career, particularly as you get towards the twilight phase of your career, you tend to think...'Hang on, where did this all start?', and you start to go back to your original passions and interests."
• "What I’ve been quietly and slightly more noisily doing recently is looking at what I call a 'geography of leadership.'"
• "You’re encouraged to talk about your Mountain and your River. And as someone who’s sort of moved around an awful lot, I must admit, I really struggle with the question - 'What is my Mountain and my River?' The whole idea is that these are critical advocates for who you are and what you’re about, and what you stand for."
• "And of course, the key task of leaders is to create the kind of collaborative governance structures that sustain, but then the collective leadership that keeps the momentum."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Journal - The Journal of Management and Organization - Tribute to Ken Perry
• Concept - Keith Grint’s four lenses of leadership (A quick reference)
• Film - Nomadland

Episodes Mentioned in This Episode

• Ted Baartmans - Understanding, Acceptance, & Respect
• Dr. Steve Kempster - Leadership for What?

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What do all of these have in common? Join us for a fun and engaging conversation about the intricacies of leadership learning and education. Wax on, wax off.

Dr. Bob Reimer is an Associate Professor of Psychology at the United States Air Force Academy where he helps students, faculty, and staff discover performance possibilities that they are missing. Bob holds a Ph.D. in Industrial-Organizational Psychology from Penn State with a focus on enhancing workplace performance to include leadership and talent management. Bob is certified to administer and interpret assessments to help individuals and organizations succeed. Bob has applied experience advancing the performance of global companies, government organizations, professional associations, and educational institutions.

Select Articles by Dr. Reimer

• Leadership Development: Observations on Practicum as a Team-Based Approach
• The Impact of Using a Survey Framework in Leadership Education: Is More Better
• Situational Obstacles to Enacting Transformational Leadership in Military Organizations
• Getting What you Inspect, Not What You Expect: Leveraging Technology to Enhance Leadership Assessment Methodologies

Quotes From This Episode

• "I think one of the great challenges that I see today...we've seen a great proliferation of leadership, ideas, plans, programs, products, you name it...but as a discipline...we don't really have objective standards." 
• "I think one (challenge) is we're wrestling with this idea of what 'evidence-based' looks like."
• "Our identities always exist in a system."
• "When a student comes to understand leadership, as a solution to the problem of bringing people together to do things collectively, then that changes their perspective on what leadership is...I don't have to be the team leader, to have a role in influencing how my teammates come together, and we work interdependently to get work done."
• "My students remind me on a daily basis that they don't necessarily want to study leadership as a topic. But every single one of them is actively engaged on a daily basis with practicing leadership. My job as an educator and as a director, when I work with faculty who are teaching these courses, is creating environments where we can really tie together the knowledge with the skills and the abilities that really matter to the student."

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World
• Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage
• Radical Uncertainty: Decision-Making Beyond the Numbers
• A Leaders Framework For Decision Making

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"If we are going to achieve freedom we’ve got to engage in action programs to make that freedom possible. Let nobody fool you about this. Freedom is never voluntarily given to the oppressed by the oppressor." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

Jim Robenalt is an author, historian, and attorney. He's a partner in Thompson Hine's Business Litigation practice group and has been named as one of America's Leading Lawyers in the Chambers USA Guide to America's Leading Business Lawyers. Jim has consistently been listed in The Best Lawyers in America® and has been selected for inclusion in Ohio Super Lawyers® through a process that includes independent research, peer nominations and peer evaluations. Jim has partnered with John Dean, Nixon's White House Counsel, to create a national continuing education program entitled "The Watergate CLE."

Select Publications by Jim Robenalt

• Website/Podcast: Ballots and Bullets
• Book: Ballots and Bullets: Black Power Politics and Urban Guerrilla Warfare in 1968 Cleveland
• Book: January 1973: Watergate, Roe v. Wade, Vietnam, and the Month That Changed America Forever  - with John Dean
• The Harding Affair: Love and Espionage during the Great War - with John Dean
• Article:  What Joe Biden and Franklin Roosevelt Have in Common
• Article: How HUD Nominee Marcia Fudge Can Undo the Damage Nixon Did 
• CLE Program: The Legacy of Watergate: Ethics of Representing an Entity Under the Current Model Rules 

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

• Speech: Malcolm X: Ballot or Bullet
• Speech: Martin Luther King, Jr.: April 26, 1967 in Cleveland, Ohio
• Speech: Robert Kennedy: April 4, 1968
• Film: One Night in Miami 
• Harvard Business Review Case: African American Inequality in the United States.
• Report: Carl B. Stokes: A 50-Year Legacy in Policy

A Quote to Ponder

• "Every system is perfectly designed to achieve the results that it gets.” – David Beckwith M.D.

Did You Enjoy Phronesis? 

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