Guest: Bo Watson & Shannon Shuskey (In the Zone Mental Training, Authors In the Zone Secrets)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 371
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join us as we explore the intricate dance between the mind and the golf swing with mental training experts Bo Watson and Shannon Shuskey of In the Zone Mental Training. Together, we unravel the significant impact of mental coaching in conjunction with golf instruction. Hear about Bo’s personal struggles with golf and the pivotal role Shannon’s expertise played in not just refining his game, but transforming the way he—and any golfer—can harness the power of visualization. From the tee box to the final putt, this conversation is a treasure trove for those looking to elevate their mental game and savor the joy of golf like never before.

Listen in as we discuss the transformative power of mindset in sports performance. Shannon opens up about his journey from anxiety-ridden to confident, culminating in becoming a national champion speed skater, and how that mental shift can be equally effective on the golf course. Skepticism meets evidence when Bo applies a custom mental trigger, leading to astonishing improvements in his game after a two-year break. This dialogue will leave you pondering the potential for mental techniques to revolutionize sports and how a single change in perception can be a game-changer.

We round out our conversation with an insightful look into mental imagery’s role in sports performance and technique, the concept of ‘caveman golf’ for achieving flow, and the psychological intricacies unique to golf. Discover how legends like Tiger Woods and Sam Snead leverage mental imagery to perform under pressure and how these techniques can empower you to reset mentally on the course. As Bo and Shannon share their book insights and their passion for the game, this episode is not just a lesson in golf—it’s an invitation to transform how you approach every shot, mentally and emotionally.

Bo is the Co-Founder of In The Zone Mental Training and Co-Author of the new book called In The Zone Secrets. He has been a host of 2 Consistent Golf Summits and the Road2TheTour Golf Summit, which collectively drew over 20,000 registered attendees. These Summits featured some of the world’s best coaches such as Sean Foley, James Sieckmann, David Orr, Mark Broadie, Scott Fawcett, Nick Clearwater, Dr. Kwon, Andrew Rice, and many others. The primary purpose behind these summits was to help golfers shortcut their path to consistent golf!

Shannon was the Operations Manager of the largest Golds Gym on East Coast and Mental Performance Mastery Coach for 20 years, Sports Performance Specialist for 30 years, specifically working in the sport of speed skating, coaching hundreds of high level athletes in including several Olympic qualifiers and medalists. It was Shannon’s mental training techniques that helped his athletes achieve such high levels that intrigued Bo to try them on himself for golf. The success of this “experiment” led to the partnership that is now the helping golfers all over the world shoot their lowest scores ever.

Bo and Shannon’s mission is to help 100,000 golfers shoot their new lifetime low rounds. They currently work with Tour Players, College Golfers, and the everyday golfer who wants to play their best golf yet!

(00:03) The Mental Edge

Mental coaching and visualization can enhance golf performance and enjoyment, discussed by In the Zone Mental Training.

(11:06) Triggering Performance Excellence

Transformational journey in sports performance, from anxiety to confidence, using custom triggers to improve without practice.

(21:45) Mental Imagery in Sports Performance

Nature’s mental imagery in sports includes basic visual and kinesthetic techniques for skill acquisition and muscle memory.

(29:02) The Power of Caveman Golf

Nature’s “caveman golf” focuses on target and flow, contrasting with pursuit of perfect swing. Psychological aspects and influence of Alex Morrison also discussed.

(36:26) Mental Imagery in Golf Techniques

Exploring mental techniques of top golfers like Tiger Woods, importance of protein for athletes, and power of positive mindset in golf.

(47:14) Mental Imagery and Performance Enhancement

Mental approaches in golf, interest-curiosity mindset, anxiety and reward value, “ball reset” technique, positive self-talk and imagery, Sam Snead’s success.

(59:00) Golf Book and Course Recommendations

Bo and Shannon share insights from their book, discuss impactful books and dream golf foursomes, and recommend inspiring social media accounts.

Instagram

Website: IntheZonementalTraining.com

Book: InthezoneSecrets.com

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To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

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18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
the 18STRONG podcast, episode number 371, with bo watson and shannon Shushkey of in the zone mental training. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode we have Bo Watson and Shannon Shushkey, the creators of the In the Zone mental training and the authors of the recent book In the Zone Secrets. And today’s episode is awesome because we’ve got the mental side, we’ve got the golf side. Bo’s background is in golf instruction and is a high level golf coach and went through a period of time where he was a little frustrated with the game, ended up actually leaving the industry. But when he met Shannon Shushkey, who is a mental game coach, performance coach, but really his background is in speed skating and working with speed skaters, but learned how to teach them and work with them on getting in the zone, when the two paths crossed, they started to figure out that this could be a game changer for the game of golf. So in this episode we go deep into visualization and what it looks like to really visualize to help your performance on the golf course, what it looks like when you step on the tee box and what that mental rehearsal and work really should look like and ends up looking like if you’re going to shoot lower scores. We also talk about how you can accelerate swing changes. Often we hear that when you’re working on the mental game, should you be looking at the shot or should you be looking at what your body’s doing? So we talk about how working on your mental game and your visualization can actually help accelerate your swing changes and how you can drop your scores without physical practice. So we’re going to go into depth on controlling the images that you see, controlling your emotions out on the course and ultimately enjoying the game even more. You’re going to really enjoy this episode with Bo and Shannon.

Our partners over at Link Soul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview. Brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview Bo Watson, shannon.

0:02:51 – Bo Watson
Shushkey, welcome to the 18STRONG Podcast.

0:02:54 – Shannon Shuskey
Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is exciting.

0:02:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Absolutely. This is going to be an exciting one for me and our 18STRONG crew. I know, bo, I kind of heard of you guys through your connection with Carl Morris and being on Carl’s show and Carl’s one of our favorites over here at 18STRONG and you guys did a great episode with him that I’m also going to encourage everybody to listen to and we’ll put that in the show notes. So I know that just by listening to that episode going through your book, the philosophies are so aligned with what we believe here at 18STRONG, just as far as the intention of the game is really for us to really enjoy it. And I think that you know, obviously by playing better you enjoy it more. But you guys go so much into the idea that you know putting this intention into playing better allows you to really enjoy the game more. And it’s about even bigger things than the game too.

So first of all I just want to kind of preface that to our audience that they’re in for quite a ride here with you guys. I would love to start out with and, bo, I’ll kind of throw this at you I’d love for you to start out with a little bit of the background of how you two met because I think the story of your connection and where you were mentally in your career and everything, bo, is really crucial to the story. And then how Shannon came in.

0:04:10 – Bo Watson
Yeah, it’s always a funny story to tell, because where I was is where I think a lot of people are kind of in their game right now or have been at some point in their golfing journey and so kind of give a little bit of a context behind that. In 2016, I actually stepped away from the game Like I closed down my golf school. I was a very successful golf coach up to that point. I’ve been blessed to learn over some of the best in the game. You know the who’s who, so to speak, and mainly that’s because of my relationship with David, or those of you of you that aren’t familiar with David Orr. David’s considered the best putting coach in the world. Him and Phil Kenyon are kind of battling neck and neck for that title. But the thing is, because of that relationship, because I was at school at Campbell and I fell in love with teaching a game, I left school, opened my own golf school and I’m having a lot of success. But the problem was, as a coach, I’m a type, a type personality. Every person that comes and sees me I want to help and, you know, kind of give you some background on our track record. We were averaging 4.7 shots dropped across handicaps, uh, for every student that we worked with, on average in about a six month time span. So we were doing a little bit better than the industry average at the time. You know, golf Tech prides themselves on seven strokes in a year. We’re doing a little bit better than them. So I kind of like to say that and rub that a little bit in the Clearwater space a little bit. But the thing is, at the end of the day I still had, you know, a few students coming to me and I couldn’t help them. And the ones that I couldn’t help, jeff, were the ones that were like hey, bo, why is it that I always start terribly on the front side but then I play amazing on the back? And it could be vice versa. I mean it could be. You know, they play really well, shoot like 36, 37, 35 on the front, and then they go to the backside and shoot 46, 48. And you know, some of them would have this trouble of getting to this one hole and it’s a negative habit loop and that’s like no matter what they do, they always hit in the water. And it was those kind of students I didn’t have an answer for and I’ll tell you.

It came to a head in september 2016. I’ll never forget it. It’s september, it’s late in the evening, he’s my last lesson of the night and we we basically had an honest conversation where I said you know what? I can’t help you and the the interesting thing about this one particular student was that, on paper, strokes gain data. When we go out and be playing lessons together, we go out and play a few holes, the data is showing that he should be in the 70s and even on top of that when we do lessons and we’re working on his game ball striking wise, this guy should be a low, single digit handicapper. But the issue was, when you go and play in tournaments, it would be high 80s, low 90s every time he goes out and plays and I, finally, I just I don’t have an answer and we decided to part ways.

I got fired that evening and, uh, that was like the final straw for me because it finally came to head, where I was so frustrated, not only not being able to help my students, but the biggest reason was because, personally, as a player, I still had yet to overcome these obstacles in my own game, and then I, when I left that evening, I shut down the golf school. I started putting out resumes and I started applying to different jobs, and then I left the game of golf for good and had no intention of ever coming back into the game until two years later. I meet this guy, shannon Shushkey, at a dinner one night. And then, you know, I got to say and be honest, my game changed, but then my life also changed as a result of it.

0:07:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that’s why I’m now here and loving what I do on a daily basis. So, Shannon, if you could kind of pick up where you met Bo.

0:08:02 – Shannon Shuskey
I know you guys went out to dinner, I believe, and it had nothing to do with golf, right? No, absolutely. I was over the ministry team at our church and I was leading prayer class and he was wanting to be on the ministry team and stuff like that, and so I wanted to go out just to get to know him. And what’s crazy is you can’t make this up he was working at a place where I just quit, probably about two years prior to that or a year prior to that, and so I was like, okay, this is first and foremost. That’s uncanny, you know, but you can’t make up the story of how we met and because, once we got there and at the restaurant we were eating and with how, everything, we didn’t even get to know each other. I was sharing with him the things that I’ve experienced when it comes to speed skating and being able to trigger my body to get in the zone on demand at the flip of the switch, and he was like there’s no way. And I was explaining to him where I was in my speed skating, how it literally transformed me as a competitor.

Um, for example, what happened with me was, um, my background. I played soccer, played semi-pro, so I was pretty fast with shoes on, but then you put skates on. What in the world was going on? It’s a different monster that was out there, and I was getting last off the starting line, um, every single time. Now, here’s the thing the team that I skated for we had 22 national champions in the prospective age group, so it was kind of like me going out against a who’s who I was like a 30-year-old, you know, going against these kids, however, and so I’m getting last off the starting line in practice, not just in practice, but at meets and everything like that.

But I knew that there was a mental disconnect, because whenever we were playing around and we’d have our shoes on or whatnot and we would race, I would beat them hands down, hands down. So I knew it’s just like in golf. You know how often um, you did, does your listeners and everybody’s listening this podcast, for example. You know you can play lights out on the golf range, but yeah, when it comes time to any kind of pressured situation or just going out to the golf course, the change in atmosphere, the environment and stuff like that, and it’s like, okay, where did my game go? That’s what was going on with me and so I was getting mental reps in and literally after I figured out with this concept and this system that I developed, literally within one month I started beating. I would say I was probably getting about halfway through off the starting line and then, within a little over a month, I was winning every single start. And then a month and a half I was winning every start, not just practice, but at meets.

And then there was a huge shift, even like literally my I was not nervous before any race. That changed. I was going in more confident and as a result of that, on top of that and it was like, okay, a name is, is just a name. But when I stepped up to the stop of mel, whether this is true or not, a name is just a name but mentally, going up to the starting line, I knew that I was the one to beat. Now, whether that was true or not, I mean I would race world champions knowing that I wasn’t, you know, on the same level as them, but mentally, a whole shift.

And so I’m sharing with Bo on this system I literally the whole, I mean probably an hour and a half and I’m sharing with him how to trigger his body and stuff like that.

Now his reaction was not what I thought was going to happen, because he was laughing at me. He was like there’s no way, you can’t do this, not for the game of golf. And then he’s laughing. He’s like I’m going to go out and I’m going to prove you wrong, right? And so then I was like, well, I pulled out my phone and I started showing him a few things. But now I’m going to transition. I went, you know, uh oh and by the way, not just, not just me when it starts either becoming national champion and breaking the record in speed skating, and so that was a huge game ship game changer for me. But then I’ll let uh both kind of finish the story on what happened the rest of that night and then the next two months yeah, I’ll see what everybody is is probably thinking right now at this point, and that is this is totally full of crap.

0:12:52 – Bo Watson
and that’s what I said to shannon that night when he said, you know, I wasn’t able to get my speed skaters or trick their bodies in the zone down. To get some context for you guys, he had coached 142 national champions, eight world champions, two Olympic medalists. Now that’s a hall of fame resume. And that’s what prompted me to be like well, that’s amazing, like what did you do? And then that’s when he dropped the bomb on me, so to speak, and he said I was able to get my speed skater stricter by his end his own and I I literally laughed, and I still laugh because I feel like there is absolutely no way this could be true. Because I said look, from my own experience, you know, when I struggled in high school and when I started, you know doing everything under the sun like getting, you know, training days, reading all the books and living on Golf Channel Academy Live and I’m trying to do everything I can to get the edge in my own swing. You know, again, kind of falling into the trap of the search for the perfect swing and unfortunately that made me worse and then, as a result, it sidetracked me to a point where I thought everything was mental. So I read all the mental game books out there and you name it, I read it and I read those outside of the game of golf. And I said, shannon, you realize that sports psychologists and these authors have all said what the zone looks like, but nobody has ever found a step-by-step process on how to get there. And you’re telling me that you figured that process out. And he said yes, and I said I still don’t believe you.

And it was at that point when Shannon said earlier, he pulled out his phone and he starts like going through and he’s finding these text messages of all of his world champions, the Olympic medalist that he coached and these other national record holders, and they’re all saying the same thing Jeff, custom trigger, custom trigger, custom trigger. And I said you know, okay, this may work for speed skating, but I said, jeff, it’s not going to work for golf. I said there’s no way. And he kind of pushed me a little bit further and then he walked me through an exercise and we can get through that in a second. But it really opened my eyes and I said, all right, this may work.

And I said, Shannon, if this does work, this is going to change a game of golf overnight. And I said you know what? I’m the best prime candidate that could prove this, if it does work for golf. And I said here’s why. I said I haven’t touched a club in two years, I haven’t played around in two years and nor do I even really have a desire, but this is intriguing enough to where I will come out and go and play and see if this thing actually works or not.

And I said here’s what I’m gonna do. I’ll take what you’re gonna teach me. I’m not gonna practice. I’m not even go to range, I’m only gonna go straight to the first tee. I might hit a few pots on the day of the time I’m playing, and that’s it. That’s what I. Eight rounds in the second half of 2018. I go six out of the eight rounds under par. I go from an index before the 2.4 plus 1.7 within that same time frame, and the rest is history. We’ve done some amazing things ever since, but yeah, that’s kind of a quick run around how we came together.

0:15:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean it’s such an incredible story and I love hearing it again. I mean it’s such an incredible story and I love hearing it again, and just like I can only picture you sitting at that dinner table, you know, just kind of like laughing, like, yeah, okay, this guy, you know, and then he starts rattling off. You know like who he’s worked with and you start to see those, and then it’s kind of like, okay, let’s. But you were saying that you thought it’d be different from golf, because golf is so different from other sports, right? And so, shannon, first I want to ask you it sounds like you first kind of figured this out for yourself and started to implement it into your own practice speed skating, into your own endeavors athletically, then started to teach it what, like where did the shift come from? Or what is that missing ingredient that so many other coaches have not been able to put their finger on, that you were able to just kind of inherently figure out for yourself.

0:16:35 – Shannon Shuskey
So what’s interesting is? It’s funny because this is even mind blowing to me, because all the books that I read up until that point I was doing it plain wrong than what they were saying. But it actually goes down to when Psychology 101 actually took that in college and if anybody’s ever taken that as an elective or as a psychologist, we’ve worked with doctors and psychologists and stuff like that too. They’ve heard of Pavlov’s dogs and which is so in the, in the study. With Pavlov’s dogs there would be a light or a buzzer, a sound or anything like that, and then what would happen is food would drop down for the dog to eat and then what happened is they noticed two different things in classical conditioning. They noticed the behavior of the dog, but then also salivating. We hear a lot about the salivation part of it, but we don’t really necessarily talk about about the behavior, and everybody has a dog can do this.

You, as soon as you get food out, what’s going on? The dog starts jumping around, it starts doing in circles and stuff like that. Right, that’s the behavior, but also the salivation that was going on with the dog. The light would come, the food, and then what happens is a week later they were come the food. And then what happens is, a week later they were training the dog. So then what happens is two couple weeks later, or a short term, spin came they. They noticed that when the trigger went, that the light or the buzzer went off, and then that would not drop food, the dog would. Behavior would be the same thing, but also the dog would be salivating.

And see, that’s what I was doing. I was figuring out okay, I’m going to do a trigger to get my body there, but then I’m also going to put the pieces of the puzzle together using kinesthetic mineral imagery. And where, at the time, I didn’t know anything about kinesthetic mineral imagery, it just so happened that the definition of it actually is exactly what I was doing, right, um? And so the important thing is like, when you’re doing mental imagery, um, you have to have all your five senses activated, I mean at a high level. You know, you want to be attention to detail, like, for example, if the wind is blowing, can you feel the wind? You know, and not just that, you know the sights. What are you seeing? Can you see the dimples in the in the ball? Can you hear? You know when you swing your club, you know, going to hit it, uh, and stuff like that.

So then I was that’s what I was doing with my mental imagery was I was making it so real, getting all five senses, uh, involved. But however um, I like to use it this way when it comes to mental imagery, there’s actually seven senses and getting seven senses involved. The reason why I say that is because, number one, you got to have limb movement, your arms, your body, body movement going into it. You got to feel it, you got to do it and, matter of fact, the more that you do it, matter of fact, there’s been numerous studies when people have been hooked up with electrodes and EMGs and stuff like that. And when you’re doing mental imagery, the ones that are making it real, they actually their muscles are twitching, they’re firing and stuff like that.

But then also that the seventh sense is adding emotion to it, because your emotion can change, how focused you get, how dialed in that you can get, for example, making the target feel like a magnet pulling you to it. You know what I’m saying when it’s almost like okay, even though aim small, miss small, but it seems like that target is huge because you’re just so dialed and locked into it, and so that’s what I was doing. I was getting those three pieces, the trigger with the emotion and the mental imagery in there. So then, when it came time for me to perform, I was doing it. So that’s what I was sharing with Bo that night. But I was going step by step by step on how to do it, and so that was basically a long answer to your question there.

0:20:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, that’s great, and I want to get as much as we can out of this short time that we have together so we can give some people some actionable steps. And then obviously you know we can’t put a whole book in an episode, so then they’ll want to go get the book and, you know, dissect every single piece. But you talk about kinesthetic mental imagery and psychoneuromuscular imagery, psychoneuromuscular training, and I want to kind of break those down a little bit. But what’s the difference between kinesthetic mental imagery and mental imagery? You guys make a distinction in the book, because I think that most of us hear about visualization and, like you just said, we picture what we’re trying to do and I think we’ve all tried this as golfers. But you guys go into so much more detail about those kind of things. But can you differentiate really between kinesthetic and mental? Is that simply bringing in the emotion and the movement, adding those pieces?

0:21:44 – Bo Watson
100%. Mental imagery is in its most basic form. It’s just simply just seeing things Like there’s no emotion that’s attached to it. It’s just, I would say, visualization 101, kind of like what most people are doing on a very basic level that they’ve been taught. I’m a big fan of Vision 54, what Len and Pete have done, and so when the people are standing back in a think visualization box, I think the simplest way to describe what mental imagery versus kinesthetic mental imagery is is.

Mental imagery is you’re just simply just close your eyes and you’re just seeing the shot, like there’s nothing else that’s really attached to it. Kinesthetic mental imagery is where you’re taking it to a totally different level, meaning you’re now putting in all the awareness what you’re hearing, what you’re seeing. Maybe you can even see yourself like tasting like Gatorade, or if you’re drinking a beer in the round and you’re just walking up to the tee box, you’re hearing your playing partners over to the side. You know you’re also more engaged with the detail, like what Shannon just shared. But the other piece of this is again what Shannon just shared when moving. So you’re actually physically feeling the movements as you’re doing it and then, last but not least, the emotion that’s attached to it. And so when you look at the two types and then you look at all the studies there have been numerous studies and we have a lot of those referenced in our book at the end of the book but I guess it’s really fascinating when you see what kinesthetic mental injury is doing for people when it comes to like rehab, when it comes to, you know, even strength gains. You know there have been numerous studies out there where people are just doing uh, shannon can reference that in a second but like there are numerous studies where people just do tennis, study mental injury of them doing an exercise or workout and yet they’re still seeing amazing strength gains versus just doing it physically only and so like when you do the combination of two, I mean it’s like a massive, like knockout punch, so to speak, and so you can really accelerate things. And this is true even when it comes to the swing and how you want to improve your swing and you want to do a swing change. This is how you would do it and you can accelerate in a shorter time span. But I will say this about kinesthetic mental injury because shannon kind of alluded to it earlier.

One of the best early examples was in 1980. The author of the study was Suinn S-U-I-N-N. You can go look this up. And what was so cool about the study is they studied an Olympic downhill skier and what they did was they had him actually physically go out and do the actual training of the course, where he was running down the slopes and everything, and they had his muscles hooked up and so they’re measuring off the ekg I think that’s what it’s called and they’re seeing the muscle activity. But then they sat him down and he is physically sitting completely still and they’re having him go through the course in his mind and he’s engaging all the sensors and what was fascinating is that his muscles were actually firing at a even higher level than when he was doing it physically well so that was one of the big I guess you would say um hallmark studies, that kind of like got a lot of other people on board and so this has been a big, heavily researched topic over the last like 40 years, uh, since that one study came out.

It has been really fascinating. People go down a rabbit hole really quick when you get on the kinesthetic mental imagery.

0:25:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So, shannon, when you’re talking about the kinesthetic and feeling the limbs moving, you’re not actually standing up and like practicing a swing. You’re literally just trying to tap into the feelings that you would have when you’re out there. Is that correct? To tap into the feelings that you would have when you’re out there Is that correct?

0:25:25 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, absolutely.

However, what we want to do is because, for example, a beginner, when it comes to doing mental imagery, what we would have them do is physically do a swing and then do mental imagery of that swing and go back and forth. So then that way you’re getting the feeling of it dialed in right, because it’s fresh on your mind. You know, we always say when you’re going out, you know, when you’re on the golf course, you’re doing your swing twice, you’re playing the round at least twice. It’s sometimes three times or four times, not just once, because mentally you’re rehearsing it over different, different shots over and over again in your head. And so that’s one of the things that we’re doing when it comes to that like and and then you. Then there’s levels of mental imagery that we actually talk about in the book. We call them five levels of mental imagery, and that’s the basic level, and the elementary, preschool level is all right. Let’s get the feeling dialed in, and that’s how you get it done. Like you can go out to the range, for example, get your balls there, go through your pre-shot routine, hit the ball and then do mental imagery of what that felt like, and then just keep alternating back and forth and then do more mental imagery going in there. So then you’re actually feeling it. So then, but then when you get your mental reps away from the course, that’s where all your gains are.

A lot of people think that their gains are on the golf course. No, that’s just, that’s like taking your test right. You’re getting everything away from the golf course before you even get there. Because if you wait till you get there, it’s too late. Your body’s going to react to what you’re, what you’re, what we’re saying here for. So you got to get your reps away from the course.

It’s just like you know, going to the gym, you know somebody is trying to lose weight, they go to the gym, you know, to the gym, you know somebody’s trying to lose weight. They go to the gym, you know. And then they come home and then they look at uh, look in the mirror. They’re like, well, nothing, nothing happened, I’m done. No, that’s not how it works, right, you have to give your body time to start reacting to it by going to your mental gym and getting those reps in and getting the feeling of that swing. Um, not just that, because here’s the thing your driver’s gonna feel a lot different than your putter. So you gotta get them all dialed in, not just one, and it takes some work, don’t get me wrong. But here’s the thing is it hard work? Absolutely not. It’s actually pretty easy. You know you’re not going out and breaking sweat and suffering when you’re doing it, it’s just, it’s easy work, but you just got to get the work done.

0:28:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you mentioned there’s different levels of this and obviously we start at the beginning level and most people have tried to go and visualize, right, I think we’ve all been there and I would say that one of the big dilemmas that people come into is well, am I visualizing this shot or am I visualizing internally what my body’s trying to do? And I know we’ve had, you know, carl and Gary on the show and they talk a lot about well, does the shot create the swing? Does the swing create the shot? Is it internal focus? Is it external focus? Bo, I’m going to leave this one to you. How do we differentiate where that focus is? Is it both? Is one helping to foster the other? And what direction do you give people when they’re kind of stuck between, I don’t know, am I working on me or am I working on what that shot looks like?

0:28:55 – Bo Watson
Yeah, it’s a fantastic question and it really depends on where the player is and their journey and where they’re at in the system. So, like one thing that we always want to get a player to is ultimately what we call caveman golf. We know our best performances are going to come from caveman golf. So what does that look like? It’s C target, c ball, hit ball. That would be basically a caveman’s approach to playing golf at a high level. And you know what’s funny Every time I have a conversation with a golfer in our community, you know the common denominator I always hear from every single one of them when they tell me like their best round was, or their lifetime low ground.

The common denominator across every single one of them was I was in a zone, I was in a close state. Okay, let’s go down a little bit deeper. Did you have swing thoughts throughout the round? You know what every single one of them said no, I did not. And then I go and press a little bit deeper. I’ll say what was your main focus, my target? And that’s why, like, one of the most important things that people can write down and always remember is where your attention goes energy flows. And there are so many studies out there in multiple different sports that have backed up this idea that even though your technique could be off, for an example, but if you intuitively know that this is your target, your body will compensate in a way to get a ball, whatever sport it is, from point a to point b, and I mean they’ve done it in so many different studies and so many different sports. But it’s true for golf too, which is why, like, yes, working in a swing is important. You’ll never hear me say that technique is not important. It is um. But at the same time, there’s got to be a healthy balance and unfortunately and I think this is what will help a lot of people listening to us and give me a little bit more context behind why what we’re teaching is so powerful is because, unfortunately, over the last 50, 60 years, this game has gotten this unhealthy pursuit of the search for the perfect swing, and that’s not the answer.

You will never hear a major champion in a press conference after they just won a major championship, come back and say you know, today I won because I was able to hit my P3 position extremely well and then I was able to get my wrist flexion at 22 degrees at the moment of contact. And then I had my weight pressure, you know, with ground reaction forces and getting everything to move back into my left heel, and that’s where I had to snap and get the left lead leg. No, you never hear a major champion say that. What do they say? They said I was really dialed in, I could see my shot clearly today. And what do they say? They said I was really dialed in, I could see my shot clearly today, and it’s all those things. Even when you look at basketball, for example, you’ll never hear you know, kobe Bryant a late Kobe say yeah, I was, uh, I was able to get my knees bent at 24 degrees at the moment of my release and then I felt my pressure go back to my right heel when I actually landed and I knew that was my way of making shots. No, it’s always like I saw the shot and anybody that’s ever shot basketball, you know that if you think about mechanics, you’ll be looking at the backboard or much less at the rim at all, but when you shoot your best, it’s always because you had a clear vision of the arc, of the approach, of the ball going into the hoop and where you want it to go in at a certain Unfortunately.

Yes, it is the hardest sport in the world, which is why I had to argue with Shannon early on when we were at dinner that night and why I said this couldn’t work. But what’s fascinating is over the last two years I’ve been on a lot of research and so to kind of give context to everything we’re doing, for those of you that are very scientific-minded and still skeptical, this is a system that is a blend of classical conditioning and what’s called operant conditioning. So it is psych mesmerizing. It is blending the custom trigger with the CPR kinesthetic, mental imagery. There you go. Those are pieces.

But I want to go back to why this game has gotten away from its roots when you look at the best players in the game Sam Snead, tiger Woods, phil Mickelson, ben Hogan and then Jack Nicklaus and Mickey Wright on the LPGA Tour side of things. But I want to just focus on these four players just for a second. Sam Snead, ben Hogan they both shared the same coach. Who was that coach? Henry Pickard, jack Nicklaus first childhood coach, his name was Jack Rowe. Now Mickey Wright worked with a coach named Harry Pressler. Those were the three coaches Harry Pressler, henry Picker, jack Routt, who was all three of their coaches’ mentor. It was nameless Alex Morrison.

Now who is this Alex Morrison guy? When you do research you find out this Alex Morrison guy was actually way ahead of his time and, honestly, we hope our work is actually paying a tribute to him, because he was actually the godfather of the one that wrote the book in 1940 called Better Golf Without Practice and, if I’m not mistaken, harvey Pinnock said Alex Morrison was one of the absolute best swings he’d ever seen in person. And that’s amazing when you consider all the people that he’s been around right Now. Here’s the thing about Alex Morrison. In that book, better Golf Without Practice, there was a comedian. He tells the story of a comedian, lou Lohr, and this guy could not break 90 to save his life. So everybody that’s listening, you’re struggling to break 100, you’re struggling to break 90. Well, you may want to pay attention to this part right here, because Lou Lohr tried everything under the sun, could not break 90 to save his life. And finally comes Alex Morrison and he said hey, I need help.

What does Alex do? The total opposite of what everybody else does in this game. He didn’t go get training aids, he didn’t go and do full. You know so many hours of physical practice and do lessons physically on the range. Now what does Alex do? He sets them down in a chair and over the next two weeks all they do is basically kinesthetic mental imagery of him rehearsing what out of the system is called the five Morrison swing keys. That’s all they did, plus while actually playing around in his mind. Now what’s interesting is Lou Lord goes out his first round back and he actually shoots 87. Now here’s what’s crazy about that. Let’s go back to Sam Snead, those of you that are Bob Rotello fans, and Jeff. I don’t know if you’ve read Bob Rotello books. Did you ever read the Golfer’s Mind, that particular book?

0:35:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I don’t know if I read that one. I read Golf is Not a Game of Perfect and a couple of the other ones. Yeah.

0:35:14 – Bo Watson
Yeah. So in the Golfer’s’s mind book, in chapter two. This is so fascinating to me. Bob Rotella is giving a seminar that can make or break his career and he details it pretty, pretty bluntly, so to speak, because he said if Sam Snead gets up and says this guy’s a crook, you shouldn’t listen to him. Bob Rotello’s career would have ended right then and there in the game of golf. That’s what was on the line for him. Now he is nervous because Sam Snead does stand up after he gives his talk, but what comes out of Sam’s mouth was actually shocking to everybody in the room. Sam says we need to listen to this young man because he has a lot of truth of what he just shared, and what was interesting is what sam shares.

Next he said the reason why I was so successful in my career was because the night before I would play my rounds, I would visualize it and do mental imagery of what I would see, my perfect shots. For the next day’s round, he said, I’d fall asleep between like hole 10 and 14, wake up next day, feel, go through my normal routine and I go and play a great round. And what’s so crazy about that is that he’s tied with Tiger with the all-time PGA Tour wins. Now, why did I say Tiger? Tiger won an early 2000s clinic and it’s also in his book.

Tiger shared something that was really, really interesting and it’s the key to why he has made some of the most iconic putts on Sunday final round in majors and some of these events that he’s won over the course of his career. He said on the outside it looks like I’m calm and collected, but on the inside I’m extremely nervous, like when the pressure’s on. Now we would think that would be totally, you know, untrue, right? But this is what Tiger said. And he said when I’m nervous, when I’m going through these uh putts, this is what I do, and he’s walking everybody through it.

And he said when I’m standing to the side of the ball, I’ll look, and then what I’m doing is I’m taking a picture. So if you go back to those old like polaroids, you know those little click pictures, right, the cameras, and that’s what he’s doing. And he’s like I’m looking, I’m taking a picture, and then I get up over the ball, I’ll take another look, I’ll take a picture. And then he said I’ll take one final look, I’ll take a picture, and then he’ll say all right, tiger, let’s putt to the pitcher, like Papa used to say. And that’s what is basically. I mean, that’s mental imagery right there and that’s a big key of why he’s made some of the most amazing putts over the course of his career.

0:37:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s unbelievable. Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at First Form, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post-workout protein shake. I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis, and so I know that with the post-workout shake the Formula One, first of all, it’s fast acting. So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym, but also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks. So be sure to go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your First Form Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free First Form products. So again, go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18strong.

You know you talked about how with the game of golf being different than other sports and you know we don’t focus on the techniques when we’re basketball players and, shannon, I know you have a background in soccer. I played a lot of soccer growing up and I always go back to that. Or even baseball, like you never think about. If you get hit a ground ball and you’re at shortstop, what does it take to throw the ball to first base right versus if you were in center field and still had to throw it a second base? Like you’re never making calculations in your head, or I always find it amazing that if, even if I’m going out and messing around with my son’s soccer team and helping coach and I hit a pass and I put it right to a kid’s foot, that’s like running down the line.

I’m like, how do I still know how to do that? Don’t get me wrong, it doesn’t happen all the time, but you do that and you’re like why is golf not like that for most of us? But you’re saying that that’s really what you’re teaching it to be by implementing a lot of these techniques and these tactics of mentally rehearsing. Shannon, what does it look like when we’re actually on the golf course? So we’ve talked a little bit about. You know, like some of the training off the course but Bo mentioned the custom trigger earlier and I know that you know when we’re on the course, how do we then take some of this and what does it look like when we’re physically implementing day of game day? You know you’re standing on the tee box.

0:40:00 – Shannon Shuskey
So yeah, and so, um, standing on the tee box first, there, there’s several types of imagery that you do. Um, what I mean is is one is you want to see your shot pattern, how it’s going to go, the trajectory and stuff like that, but then you want to do your mental imagery before you know. Matter of fact, jason I believe it’s Jason day. He was notorious back when he was a PGA champion that, I mean, it was obvious. He’s there holding his club, he got his eyes shut and he’s going through his mental imagery, and so that’s one of the things that you do, because what it does is it’s teaching your body to react to it. Matter of fact, phil Mickelson I love in the interview that he was talking about, he makes it reactionary to when he makes the shot surrender in his brain. Like if you look at him and he’s staring off off and it looks like he’s in la-la land. That’s what he’s doing. He’s doing mental imagery making that shot surrender. So then when he’s confident and committed, he reacts to it, and then that’s when he steps into the play ball and then he goes and plays. That’s the important part. When you’re, when you’re going through your shots, is seeing that, and here’s a part. Here’s a thing you have to always vision the perfect shot. You don’t want to envision a bad shot, because what you’re doing is you are programming your brain and wiring your brain to perform negatively.

A great example is Jacqueline Hernandez. She was in the Sochi Olympics. She was a downhill snowboard cross racer. And what was happening and you can actually look this up in the New York Times there was an article that was written because there was going around talking about mental imagery. Everybody’s doing mental imagery and all this stuff. However, when they got to her, she said that she kept seeing herself fall in this particular turn over and over again. And then what happens is she’s setting herself up as like a self-fulfilling prophecy. But here’s the thing she’s training her mind and body to react that way, going into that turn when she goes down. So here she is she’s going down, she’s making it, she’s taking her turn going down the hill and as she gets to that turn, guess what? Her muscles start reacting the way that she’s programmed it to do so many times before going into it. Where what happens is she starts feeling shaky. She starts oh no, here’s that turn. Mentally, she’s dreading going into that turn because she’s done it so many times negatively and she’s fallen. Well then, unfortunately, the hate that this happened. She actually fell and then she actually got knocked unconscious and had to carry her off because of it. Now that is like an extreme example of it.

But just think in golf. It’s different. You’re shaking the ball, you’re topping the ball, you’re doing this. You know what I’m saying. So you want to actually visualize the perfect shot, but here’s the thing you can visualize coming out of a bad situation, going into a good situation. What, what? So this is the thing like when you’re going doing you know, for all the listeners going through your mental imagery.

Don’t just think about you’re hitting the perfect shot off the perfect line every single time.

No, you know you. Your limitation is in your imagination. What kind of lie are you in? Are you in a bad rut, deep grass? Are you hitting it off of near a root or something like that? You know what I’m saying, where there’s all these things that can actually take place. But then you’re actually performing the shot perfectly, seeing the shot shape and also as it reedmen, as in reading it. That’s the other thing too is like, when you like, answer your question again coming up, visualize the perfect shot where it goes to the, to the exact place where you want it to go every single time. And then that way, when you’re stepping in number one, you’re going to be a lot more committed, you’re going to be a lot more confident going into your shot. But then you got to trust your athleticism when it comes to when you address the ball that’s what Bo was talking about. Caveman golf, that’s what it is, it’s the less thoughts that’s going in your brain and literally trust your athleticism to pull off that shot that you just visualized.

0:44:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’m picturing standing on a tee box and we’ve all got a hole that we kind of dread, or, you know, we’ve hit a couple bad shots and we’ve got these, these mental images of you know letting that ball fly out to the right and drop into the water or whatnot. And you guys talk about controlling that image and you warn that you know you have to. You have to pay attention to what image you’re putting in. What if we find ourselves stuck on that though, Like we are, we know, like, okay, the second hole at Boone Valley has water on the right. That second shot is daunting and I’ve seen my ball go in there a couple of times, right.

So how do we stop perseverating on that image and break ourselves out of that chain, Even though you know, okay, you’re staying over the wall, All right, I think we all say don’t go in the water, don’t go in the water, and so it’s, you know, focus on putting it on the green. But how do we really break that? And I know that’s not an easy question to answer right here.

0:45:25 – Bo Watson
No, that’s where we have to visit with two things. One, we have to mind map the negative habit, so like when we see a pattern. This is why journaling is so powerful and it’s one of the biggest reasons why we’ve seen a college team that we work with that was outside of the top 50 and now trending into the top 20. And, honestly, if we keep on the same path you know they were averaging over 305 as a team in the fall. Now they’re averaging 284 and they just set the third lowest scoring average in school history on their most recent tournament. So we’re trending in the right direction. But I’m going to tell you the biggest reason why that’s been possible is because of journaling and being very mindful to these details, because when, when we start seeing those kinds of negative, how to lose? Like you said, when we see shots over and over on this one particular hole going to water, we have to first become aware of what behavior and what thoughts are entering our minds when that’s happening. So when we shot a spotlight on what’s going on that triggers it, we can identify the old behavior and autopilot behavior that people just seem to. For whatever reason, we just keep doing the same thing over and over again, and that’s why we like to have these hard conversations. Once we identify there’s a negative habit loop, there is, for an example, let’s say, on that hole you hit it in the water like five times out of the last seven rounds and what we identify is you tense up and you’re trying to control your swing right. There’s always a reward value in our brain where whenever we do some type of behavior, there’s some type of reward for it. Even if you have a very low success rate, your brain will always take that part. Like that one time, four rounds prior, where you are still tense and you still try to control your swing, but yet you hit it 10 yards in from the water’s edge, but you’re safe, right. You will still keep doing that over and over and over again until finally you come to grips with. I like to ask this question to our players hey, out of the last 10 times you do this, what’s your success rate? And what they’ll come back and tell us is like 10%, 15%. I’ll say, okay, now we go deeper in this in the book. But that’s where we kind of teach this interest-curiosity approach that we want to take, and there’s a lot of research to back this up. That’s really, really cool. But when we take that approach where it literally updates reward value in our brain, so to speak Dr Rick Judson talks about this in his anxiety book it’s an amazing resource for that. But what we’ve done is we’ve kind of taken that and we applied it to the game of golf and we show it how it can be even more practical for this and that’s what we’re doing with our players is now we’re able to go. That’s interesting.

I’m about to engage in this behavior that only has about a 15% success rate and what it does it gives you permission to go. Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Why would I do this? And then what we can do is is okay, let’s choose a better path. And that’s where the ball reset, which is in the very next chapter in a book where we go deep on that, and what that does is it literally I’ll help shannon’s uh way to explain it but it literally becomes a washing machine, so to speak, for the brain to do a hard reset.

So we can take a player from a red light state. We can go deep into this if we need to, but we can take a player from a red light state. We can go deep into this if we need to, but we’re going to take a player from a red light state in the brain where there’s so many faults happening right after another. So just give a quick understanding of what the red light state is. You know, basically your brain has multiple different wave activity going on in the brain. So, like when there’s a lot of conscious level fault, your brain can basically become inflamed, so to speak, on some of these brain scans and it’s so fascinating because whenever we miss, like a three-foot putt or something like that, we got so many negative thoughts happening right after another after another. So just think of it that there’s a lot of activity going on, but when we do a ball reset, we can get a player back to green light state within about 10 seconds. That is about the equivalent of them doing 20 minutes of meditation or 20 minutes of yoga in the brain.

Now that’s powerful because what we’re doing is we’re resetting the brain, so to speak, back to a green light state where they can process things. And you know you hear people say this all the time. You know you have what’s called a fight or flight response. You know some people call it the alligator brain, and so it’s like you know, now there’s a threat and the whole prefrontal cortex kind of goes offline, so to speak. And what this reset is doing is bringing on the parts of the brain that actually can function and do things at a normal level, so to speak. And that’s what we’re doing is we’re taking them through a process where we do the hard reset, getting back to a green light state. Then we’re falling out of power talk, and then on top of that, we’re having them relive an amazing shot in the past in a similar situation. And when they go through it in that process, they’re now excited when they get to the last L of the ball reset and look forward, and they’re excited to play this next shot. Now I’ll give you an example, and this is why Sam Snead was so dang good.

Not many people know about this story, but we cover it in a book and I’ll share it for everybody here on this podcast. This is really cool. Those of you that struggle with anxiety, those of you that struggle with nervousness, listen to this. Sam Snead. He is in 1936, the week before he’s going to play in his PGA Tour debut tournament at the Greenbrier. Now he’s playing at the Greenbrier the week before. Now he’s playing with Greenbrier the week before.

The head pro organizes an exhibition match. It’s got two former US amateur champions, one former US Open winner, now Sam Snead’s a rookie. Now word gets out there are so many people coming to watch this match and so there is a ton of people that’s surrounding the first tee Sam’s turn. Sam gets up. He is so nervous he is having to use both hands to steady the ball on the tee. Like can you imagine? Like that’s basically on the verge of a panic attack, if we’re being completely honest. Right, so he is trying to steady the ball on the tee with both hands. That’s how bad he was shaking.

Now he collects himself, he walks back Probably lucky that he actually was able to walk back in that situation. But he’s standing behind the ball and what he does is he closes his eyes, and what he does is he then relives all of his amazing shots in the past on that same hole. He gets up, goes through his routine, hits the shot the crowd gasps. And when he looks and sees his ball flying, hits the shot, the crowd gasps. And when he looks and sees his ball flying through the air, not only is he outdriving his playing opponents by about 20 yards, but he hits it about 15 yards further than all of his most successful drives that he had hit on that hole in the past.

Now wait a second. How does a guy go from on the verge of a panic attack to then hitting his most successful drive ever on the same hole? It was because what he did was doing mental imagery and that’s why it’s such a major piece for a ball reset in the first L when we do a look back that right there. We just had a conversation with one of our college players just yesterday. She had a scoring average of 77 from her first two seasons and right now she just threw the first three tournaments in this spring season. She’s averaging a 72.8. She said the ball reset has blown her secret weapon and it is one of the biggest, most powerful tools that people need that have been able to get people out of these negative habit loops and actually get them to a place where they can attack these things head-on wow.

0:52:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You talk about how you know he he was able to relax and saw his ball go so much further. I remember you guys talking in the book about how so much of this is first of all changing your state to be in a more relaxed state, but then also helping to produce a better rhythm and tempo in your swing. And I, uh and that’s really where a lot of the extra distance and power comes from. We tend to get so focused on trying to muscle through our golf swing, trying to hit a ball further. But I think we’ve all experienced that relaxed swing that just you’re like whoa, how did that swing produce that effect? And I’ve even been doing a lot of research lately just on the body and fascia and how the tempo and the way that our body reacts with contraction versus relaxation and how those things play together with the rhythm. So it’s like so many things that you guys talk about, and then even the physical components from a training side of things, how they all mesh together, and it’s just fascinating to me things how they all mesh together and it’s just fascinating to me.

One thing that I heard you guys talk about on Carl’s podcast was that along with your book, you have a workbook, and I think that that’s important to mention, because so many of us have read books along the lines of what we’re trying to do here, but we tend to read the books and then go on to the next book and go on to the next book. And so, shannon, if you could tell us a little bit about, kind of, the whole structure of your program and why the workbook was so essential to this piece and for people really getting results, I like to say this Our book will put your game on steroids, so to speak mental steroids.

0:54:17 – Shannon Shuskey
But the workbook will put the book on steroids Because here’s the thing you’re going to learn everything a lot faster, first and foremost. But then also, we have activations that are in the workbook, because I mean, goodness, our book would be like a novel, would be huge, if we put everything in there, then downloads and everything like that. That’s in the workbook. And so we have certain activations like going out, doing certain things, playing, um, uh, we also give them like a schedule, it’s in the workbook. Like, for example, you’re like. We also give them like a schedule, it’s in the workbook. Like, for example, you’re like this mental energy, what, where do I start? What do I do? What are the guidelines? You know what am I working on? And here’s the thing we get. We set them, we set everybody up to for success.

For example, like Bo mentioned, about the college coach you know I played soccer in college. About the college coach you know I played soccer in college. Um, I would be extremely let down if my soccer coach did not have a plan. And the same thing on speed skating. You know, with speed skating, that if my coach didn’t have a a thought, well thought out process on what I should be doing now and then not just now, but two months from now and in order for me to peak or to get to a certain level, and stuff like so then what we’ve done is we actually created schedules and things like that in there. All right, what are you working on? What do you need to work on?

And then you know you, you can’t neglect any golf club. For example, we actually had one of the one of our tour players that we’re working with. Um, you know, after about two months, the the putting started struggling was because they neglected putting. You can’t, you can’t neglect anything, any part of the game, and so you basically got to do maintenance work, going through and doing it.

But we, we show you, like, a lot of that stuff that’s in the workbook as well, going in there. And and here’s the other thing too um, I’ve noticed, like when it, when it comes to certain, uh, certain books, that you can go out, somebody will create a workbook that goes with it, right, and it’s like oh man, I’m gonna get that, there’s a workbook that goes with it. And then you look at it you’re like, wow, that’s not even by the author, right, right and then, and there’s, there’s no depth to it whatsoever. So we actually created a deeper depth so we can learn it faster. But then you, you, it’s, you’re, you’re becoming what the book is wanting you to be and you’re walking in your true identity awesome well, anything to add to that?

0:56:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
looked like you were.

0:56:51 – Bo Watson
You wanted to add a little something that that last statement right there, is like the nail on the head because you are becoming the book at that point. And that is the main purpose behind why we created the workbook that way. They have something that is practical and that that’s always been all right.

Some context there me personally and what I’ve seen a lot of other golfers complain about, and when it comes through the mental side of the game and these mental books that are out there and don’t get me wrong, like there’s a lot of good things out there, but one of the biggest comedy denominators I kept seeing over and over and over again and it was also true of me is that it’s very high philosophical, so to speak, but yet there’s no like practical, like ABC step one, two, three, and when it came to applying these things, that’s why you know when we created the book and then, more importantly, the workbook, it is like hey, here, start here, do this, do this, do this, and that way it’s like a clear path.

But even better, you can actually measure Are you actually getting better? Because we have a business test that will actually measure your ability to visualize how good is your mental imagery, and we’ve taken people that have had like a low score of 24 and get that increase all the way up to as high as like 72, 73 over just like a couple months. And so that part is exciting, because now we have something that can actually measure are you getting better at the mental side of the game? And so that’s a big piece to it.

0:58:15 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, we also have like an anxiety test. Who would have thunk it? You know, when it comes to golf, you know what I mean. Like you know, like you had mentioned, like you got this hole that you dread or you got a tournament coming up, you know how do you change the nervous to exciting, but then you know what is your gauge that you’re going by. In other words, how are you going to do a check engine, like check for your brain, and then so we have an anxiety test. We’ve got a lot of self-evaluations that are in there that’s not in the book as well to where you can kind of see, if you’re transparent with yourself, it’s going to give you a much better performance because you know where to start, you know what I mean, and so it kind of gives you that. It kind of puts you in the starting blocks, ready for you to take off.

0:59:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and you guys do have quite a few downloads in the book too that I’m sure are part of the workbook as well. If they don’t have the workbook that they can go and do some of those things. Awesome, Bo. Where can they go find?

0:59:16 – Bo Watson
what’s the best place for them to find the book and everything that you guys are doing? Yeah, the best place it just goes simply to the website. It’s indesignsecretscom. So you just go to indesignsecretscom and what’s pretty cool is we created a really special offer. They can also get the book on Amazon and they can do that, and you go get a full price of $24.95 on Amazon. But if you get it through our website, it’s actually a personalized, autographed version of the book from both Shannon and I and we’re basically buying a book for you. All you have to do is just pay shipping and handling and it’s only $9.95 for that and we will send it out personalized, signed copy and there’s a couple other bonuses there too. So, yeah, you can get the book at either location, but if you go to our website, it’s onthezonessecretscom.

0:59:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, awesome, and we’ll make sure that all that’s linked up in the show notes and everything, fellas, we could. I mean, there’s so much in this book. Obviously, people are going to want to go and grab this and dig in a lot more after our conversation. There’s so many different avenues we could go down here, but unfortunately we don’t have the time to do that, so we’re going to finish up with the, the questions we ask everybody that comes on the show. Have a little fun with you, fellas.

1:00:23 – Shannon Shuskey
Um, shannon, I’ll throw this one out to you first, caddy shack or happy gilmore. Oh man, that’s tough. I would say I’m probably happy g Gilmore just because of that. You know, I’ve dealt with some of that stuff in the middle aspect. I thought you know we can overcome them.

1:00:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How about?

1:00:44 – Bo Watson
you Bo? Yeah, I thought about that. It’s definitely happy, gilmore, although it’s such a close tie. It’s just so funny, it is funny.

1:00:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, bo, if you could pick a walk-up song to the first tee box. What are you picking?

1:00:57 – Bo Watson
You know, I still cannot figure out the name of the song, but it’s the. It’s the most popular Darude Sandstorm, that’s what it was.

1:01:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, shannon.

1:01:11 – Shannon Shuskey
So it’s by a Christian rap artist. His name is Andy Mineo, it’s called you Can’t Stop Me. I like the. And then he also had one that actually has been in a lot of commercials and it’s called Coming In Hot, okay, awesome.

1:01:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, shannon, what’s a book that you would recommend to the listeners? It doesn’t have to be golf, it doesn’t have to be anything related to what we’ve even talked about today, but something that means a lot to you, that you tend to share with people, that has made a big difference in your life.

1:01:45 – Shannon Shuskey
I would say the Power of One More by Ed Milet, just because it literally pushes you to a nother level in every single area of your life. You know um very similar. I would say like that’s, that’s what our book does as well. As far as like um, because you can apply what we teach in our book to everyday life, um, and actually champion um every area of your life as well.

1:02:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Fantastic.

1:02:15 – Bo Watson
Beau. Well, besides God’s word, it would be probably Dale Carnegie how to Win Friends and Influence People, because that is an all-time classic and I love it because it just kind of expands on what it truly means to understand people and serve them, and I love that aspect of it.

1:02:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
One of the most popular recommended books we’ve had on the show so far. No All right, bo, if you could pick a dream foursome to go play golf with. Who are you picking and what’s your bucket list course that you would want to take him to?

1:02:53 – Bo Watson
Well, some of these guys would obviously be dead, but it would be Bobby Jones and one. It would have to be Alex Morrison and then probably Tiger, so I’d be the foursome. And then the course we go to, that’s not St Andrews or Augusta, would be the new, most talked about course right now in the Bahamas or the Caribbean, st Lucia, whatever it’s called. Can I go to St Lucia, play hardy golf?

1:03:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, yeah, yeah, that’s a. That’s a good little trip.

1:03:26 – Shannon Shuskey
Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, that’s a good little trip, yeah, so my dream would be to walk with Bo and watch them play, because when it comes to golf, left-handed, right-handed, it don’t matter, it’s like I’ve got a third foot or something you know.

1:03:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome. Well, I’m going to throw it back to you, though. Let’s say you just get to walk with the foursome. I want to hear your foursome that you’re picking, or three other guys that you would like to walk and just hang with.

1:03:55 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, I would say Phil Mickelson, just because of his history. It took him 14 years before he won a major and now he’s actually been very transparent more about his game and what he’s done. Um, and then obviously, uh, tiger, um as well, but um, yeah, those would be the two. And then, um, I would, I would, I’d have go, but Bo will go with me so he can teach me more.

1:04:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, Awesome. What’s a social media account that both of you guys follow? You don’t have to both follow the same account, but one from each of you. That, and again, doesn’t have to be anything related to golf or anything we talked about that you just find fascinating and think the audience would benefit from checking it out.

1:04:45 – Bo Watson
Bo All right, I got to say two. It’s going to be Ed Milet and Dr Andrew Huberman.

1:04:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome.

1:04:52 – Bo Watson
Both favorites of the show here.

1:04:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Only one has been on the podcast, but would love to get Huberman on one of these days. How about you, Shannon?

1:05:00 – Shannon Shuskey
Yeah, well, definitely Andrew Huberman, for sure. Matter of fact, a lot of our studies came from his. You know that’s in our book, that came out of Stanford and basically some of the stuff like even like we talked about mental imagery, just the basics of mental imagery just kind of getting back onto that and getting at least 50 reps in, you know no longer than 20 seconds you know that came from studies out of Stanford and stuff like that. But definitely when it comes to that, yeah, I would say by Ed Matalette and Andrew Huberman.

1:05:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right. Last one, and Shannon, I’m still going to throw this at you, even though you said you’re not much of a golfer yourself what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given, shannon, you, I’ll have you go first trust it saved it and did that come from Bo? Yes, I’ve had a yes, how about you, bill?

1:06:10 – Bo Watson
You know, I really believe the best golf advice and this is going to help everybody on here is surrender the shot before you play it, love it. Surrender your shot. So the outcome of the shot, surrender it. No matter what happens, good or bad, before you play it, man, you can just move forward much faster fantastic fellas I’d have to agree 100.

1:06:32 – Shannon Shuskey
That’s one, one of the things this, this that we’ve seen, is like. If you, if you, see golf as a game of mistakes, it makes it easier to you, know, you know, to surrender the outcome before you even walk into your shot.

1:06:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, fellas, this has been fantastic. I’m really excited for the 18STRONG Crew to dig into your work. I know that you guys are on a mission to help 100,000 golfers shoot their lifetime low, so hopefully a lot of the 18STRONG Crew can be a part of those 100,000 golfers. Any last pieces that you want to share with us before we let you go, bo?

1:07:13 – Bo Watson
The biggest thing I can say is, when you look at the game of golf, a lot of people say game of golf is 90% mental and 10% fiscal. But here’s the thing why is it that everybody is spending 100% of their time on 10% of the game? Now I understand different people like, say, beginners. It might be more like a 60-40 ratio, it could be 70-30. But the problem that I’ve seen over the last 40, 50 years is that so many people are going after technique, technique, technique, and then they feel like once they get to a point where their technique’s okay, then they start working on the mental game. It’s already too late.

And I’ll just say this really quick there was a beginner golf study that they did that measured an approach shot, and what was so fascinating is that they found that with the three groups, one did physical and mental imagery, one did physical practice, the other one did something totally unrelated. What was fascinating was that the group that did physical and mental imagery outperformed the one that did physical, and the totally unrelated obviously didn’t even have any benefit whatsoever. But what that goes to prove is that if you put mental work on your game on the back burner, it’s going to hurt you like down the road, and so you gotta gotta get ahead of it, and that’s one of the big reasons why we wrote the book, and so people can actually see a breakthrough very quickly.

1:08:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How about?

1:08:49 – Shannon Shuskey
you, shannon? Yeah, so actually that’s a loaded question. I love it. It’s not what’s happening around you, it’s not what’s happening to you, it’s what’s happening on the inside of you. It’s how we respond to certain events. You know how we actually cause. You know your emotions can change your moods. You know your movement can change your emotions and stuff like that.

And so I think that’s a huge game changer and to realize that it’s I like to say it like this it’s our response ability. It’s our ability to be able to respond to certain events that can take it, to take our life to a whole other level, not just our game, but knowing that it’s not what’s happening around you, it’s not what’s happening to you, it’s what’s happening on the inside of you and it’s how you respond to those things that actually change it. It’s not thoughts determine what you want, actions determine what you get, but it’s your behavior that can actually change it. It’s not thoughts determine what you want, actions determine what you get, but it’s your behavior that can change your future and it’s how we act, in that you know decisions determine your destiny, you know, and your focus can determine your future.

1:10:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s so good. I’ve never heard it put like that response, response ability. It’s just, it’s perfect. It’s perfect. All right, fellas, can’t thank you enough for the time and really look forward to, first of all, seeing you guys accomplish this goal of a hundred thousand golfers and beyond. Um and just. I’m excited to put this into my own practice, my own game, and shoot my lifetime low as well. So thank you for coming on to both of you guys.

1:10:25 – Bo Watson
Absolutely. Thanks for having us, Jeff.

1:10:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, thanks for listening to the 18STRONG Podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Ryan Degale (Orthopedic Spine Specialist, Founder of Golf and Body)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 370
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Listen in as Ryan DeGale, an orthopedic spine specialist with a 17-year tenure in strength and conditioning, shares his wealth of knowledge on maintaining spine health, specially tailored for golfers. Our discussion ventures into the realm of practical self-care for the back, steering clear of common misconceptions about back surgery and providing a rich understanding of spinal anatomy and physiology. For those passionate about golf, Ryan’s insights on specific exercises, showcased on his Instagram, offer a path to a pain-free golfing experience, reinforcing the importance of proactive measures over reactive ones.

In our engaging conversation, Ryan sheds light on the intricacies of the body’s supportive systems, such as ligaments, tendons, and fascia. He details the advantages of the ELDOA method over traditional inversion tables, emphasizing how these tissues play a pivotal role in posture, injury prevention, and overall athletic performance. We also examine the overlooked but crucial concept of fascia in body mechanics, highlighting how proper technique in physical therapy and massage is vital for maintaining the health of these tissues. For competitive golfers, Ryan discusses the necessity of a tailored fitness routine, underscoring the potential pitfalls of long-distance cardio and the benefits of interval training and personalized core workouts.

Wrapping up our rich dialogue, Ryan brings his clinical nutritionist expertise to the table, examining the impact of dietary choices on health and the controversial food pyramid. He offers a unique perspective on how nutrition intersects with the culture and competitive dynamics of golf. Join us for this episode as we traverse a broad spectrum of topics, from spinal health and body mechanics to the nuances of training for competitive golf and the intersection of modern medicine with nutrition, all aimed at enhancing performance and well-being both on and off the golf course.

Born in Barbados, Ryan is a 36-year-old strength coach with 17 years of experience in the field. For the past 12 years, he has trained under Guy Voyer DO, specializing in orthopedics and body motion. With over 20 years of experience in playing golf, Ryan works with competitive players and is the proud owner of Golf and Body. His mission is to help golfers play pain-free golf. 

(00:04) Masterclass on Golf Body Spine Health

Orthopedic spine specialist Ryan DeGale shares practical approaches to back care and dispels misconceptions about back surgery for golfers.

(12:31) Unlocking the Body’s Intelligent Systems

ELDOA method focuses on end-range motion and creating space in the spine, training supportive tissues, and preventing injuries in daily life and sports.

(23:01) Preventing Back Pain in Golf

Nature’s strategies for preventing and managing back pain, including seat warmers, stationary bikes, and active reinforcement for muscular imbalances.

(29:00) Discussion on Golf Swing and Posture

Eyes, fascial tension, and spinal health in golf, emphasizing holistic approach and collaboration with experts for enhanced performance.

(36:59) Training Essentials for Competitive Golfers

Personalized fitness routines, mobility, interval training, targeted core exercises, and individual goals are crucial for competitive amateur golfers.

(47:48) Importance of Fascia in Body Mechanics

Understanding fascia and proper technique in physical therapy and massage, with insights from experts and resources for further learning.

(55:52) Modern Medicine, Golf, and Nutrition

Comparing historical diets to modern processed food, dental health, celebrity golf foursome, inclusivity in golf, and competitive dynamics of golf tours.

@Hormozi

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 270 with Ryan DeGale from Golf Body. Thanks out guys. Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer, and this episode with Ryan DeGale from Golf Body is exactly about that Playing golf for as long as you possibly can. Ryan is the owner and founder of Golf Body down in Miami and he is an orthopedic spine specialist. His background is in strength and conditioning, but over the past 17 years has really become an expert in the spine, especially working with golfers. So I like to think of this as being a bit of a master class for especially those golfers that are out there, like yourself, possibly like myself, that have struggled with some back pain in the past and finding ways to really help yourself to eliminate your back pain and really to give you a more optimal and optimistic outlook on what the possibilities are for you to play pain free golf in the future. Ryan is an expert at really breaking down the anatomy and the physiology of what’s going on between the fascia, the muscle, the ligaments. He’s got a great Instagram channel where he really dives in and shows different exercises for these different types of exercises and for spine health in general. So you’re really going to enjoy this episode with Ryan DeGale.

Our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. So let’s get to this week’s interview.

Ryan DeGale, welcome to the 18strong podcast. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man, this will be fun. We’ve had a couple of conversations, we’ve tried to do this before and had a couple of technical difficulties, so this is going to be fun to finally dig in and get to chat a little bit more. I think that this is going to be a masterclass on the back, which is what a lot of our golfers need. I think I’ve learned myself, even as a physical therapist, just watching a lot of your content, your Instagram and just kind of learning about what you do. I’ve learned a ton, and so today, what I would love to do is make this very practical for the golfers listening on, what are some of the things that they can do, how can they understand Maybe they’re back a little bit better and the things that they need to do to help prepare themselves. So, first of all, welcome back to the show.

0:03:08 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, awesome, so it’s good to get it in. Got a little bit of practice before, so looking forward to digging deeper into it and maybe just touch on a few subjects that maybe we didn’t touch before. Maybe there’s some things I left out, that I could do better this time.

0:03:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, all good man, yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about your history, though, because you start out in the strength training world, but you are a spine specialist and you’ve gone deep and you’ve learned from some of the best in the world regarding spinal health, and now you especially work with a lot of golfers too. So this is a perfect lineup for what our people need.

0:03:43 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, so I’ve been a strength coach for 17 years. I’ve been orthopedic specialist for 12. I felt like you know if you can make the biggest difference? You know I wanted to. I love niche, right, I’m very nerdy with that kind of stuff and I kind of got put onto this, this kind of Givolié rabbit bowl where it just literally just never ends. These courses are so awesome and so practical and so useful that you can retake the same course, even the most basic ones, 30 times and learn something new every time.

The you know G was a former orthopedic surgeon who studied anatomy. You know, he was tired of cadaver so just became a surgeon so he could study living anatomy, because living anatomy is living, is different than you know with like formaldehyde and all of the dead body stuff you know. So. And then he developed a series of an entire program, not just the algohm method, to prevent surgeries. And his, from his words as a surgeon, he says that 3% of all back surgeries are necessary.

And so you know, you know it depends, right? So we’ll say like maybe non-contact, like disperneations, or you could have like I don’t want to get too technical, but maybe this shifting forward or backwards. They call it a retrolyzed thesis or a spondylized thesis, and you know there’s a lot of things that we can do for ourselves where we can. You know it’s a self-responsibility thing. And he says favorite quote is you are your own best therapist, and so I really love that, and so that’s pretty much what I teach. I basically teach people to not be codependent so we can get them strong and fit in those bombs. Yeah.

0:05:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Love it, love it. So when you say that and when Guy says that you know 3% of back issues are, you know, really necessarily need surgery, what are some of the things that you see people going in for where you’re just like man if I had, if I was able to get my hands on this person. What are some of the diagnoses or what are some of the issues that people go in for that really you feel like man if I only had some time with them.

0:05:34 – Ryan Degale
A few millimeters of space or the disverteation at L5S1, you know they when they have symptoms like very heavy symptoms. But you know everything with the tissues in the body there’s really not that much room. So if you create a little bit of lubrication and a little bit of space in the right area and able to, you know, restructure the pelvis, create a little more flexibility, the ribcage, and so they’re able to play golf, because you know when you most players, after they hit a golf shot, that’s when they have back pain. So you need space to decelerate the golf club. You don’t get to the top and you drop in pain. It’s mostly after the ball and so just kind of reconditioning things. You know it’s.

It’s difficult because you know, you know the the medical industry is really governed by insurance these days where you have to code. A lot of the programs are coded, you know, and it’s difficult for the doctors and therapists where they’re kind of at the mercy of the insurance companies of how to treat and this stuff. And so why a lot of people have better um with private practice or cash. Not everybody can afford it. But you know I’m trying to bring small awareness to that and you know it does not have to be fancy, it just has to be right and it has to be consistent.

0:06:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And what would you say is kind of the primary driver of that pain. That is most typical. Obviously, there’s a lot of different things that can go on with the back, but you’ve got these golfers you said a lot of times. You see that they have pain as they’re finishing their swing, they’re getting through contact. What are the typical structures, what are the typical issues that are causing that? Or, and you know, back wise, hip wise, shoulder wise, and what are some of the things that you feel like most guys or girls could prevent this if they had a little bit more knowledge of what they needed to do.

0:07:09 – Ryan Degale
I think, just really a specific warm up. Because you know, like, if you look at professional sports, you see, like you know Steph Curry, he’s, you know, doing some drills on the basketball court. You see, you know, when I’m writing a program for somebody who does this game for a living, you know they’re at the gym 30 to 45 minutes prepping the tissues, getting their nervous system activated. You know, warming up the ligaments correctly and doing all these kind of things in the lower back that are specific to what golfers need. You know, maybe a few pelvic till, some spinal translations, some rolling on, roll this mind, because everybody’s so afraid of fletching. But you know, fletching we have to in sport. You know that there is a lot of our flexor chain being used and so we need to prep the body in that way where everybody’s afraid of doing extensions and flexing. But you know we have to train it in a controlled environment so that we can go out there and not have to think about it. And with the Aldo method it’s basically a French acronym for creating space in a joint segment and so you know, you can use your own body way to decompress your spine in different segments of the spine after your rounds, which is fundamental, and then you go to sleep and then the tissues will heal at that length and you’ll be able to slowly but surely rehydrate this, the body. If you give it enough the great environment, with the right tools, it can regenerate.

I’ve seen it, you know. I’ve seen it in imaging studies, working with people with severe scoliosis when they were basically given a ticket of paying for the rest of their life. It’s just a management system. There’s no cures, it’s just a management system. How can I manage? You know the way I feel every day with the two of us, the tools I have, and I think that gives people a lot more empowerment than just being the sort of victim thing which is unfortunate, with the surgeries, pills and injections. And you know it’s destroyed a lot of lives and that’s really the truth.

0:08:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I’m sure that a lot of people listening, myself included, are thinking man, this is very refreshing to hear that you know it’s not a death sentence when you start to have back pain in your 30s or 40s or 50s. And I think a lot of people just kind of assume that either I’m on my way to getting surgery at some point down the line, or I’m going to have to give up golf, or I’m going to have to start to restrict some of my activities.

0:09:17 – Ryan Degale
We are not giving out golf for our Never right, that’s it.

0:09:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Forever. You play it until you keep swinging forever. But so, regarding like the looking at the X-rays, the MRIs, the films, so you’ve actually seen changes in the disc space and the different tissues after going through some of this maintenance stuff.

0:09:38 – Ryan Degale
Yeah with my clients, and G puts up slides with a lot of cases. We’ve seen cases of some of the most well-known athletes in the world. You know he’s kind of like the guy who works in the shadows and nobody knows about. He is so paranoid about quality control, which I really love him for. I mean there is some, you know, like Bryce Turner from LDA USA.

You know that he’s the best LDA teacher in America. I mean he’s worked with Kansas City Chiefs, to the LA Dodgers, to any professional hockey, baseball, you name it, and so including pro golfers, and you know you just have to be really careful because you know precision is key when you’re like in the LDA world there’s five levels, he’s creating six, but even at level four there’s only, like you know, there’s only like probably a hundred of us in the world and so there’s only four of us in the state of Florida, and so you know the supply and demand is not really there. It’s kind of mostly. You mostly find these techniques referrals. We don’t. We’re not like Morgan and Morgan Hubbubboards, and you know all this other stuff going on you know what I mean.

So I know for a fact that you know guys like Woods and Cantley, and you know a lot of these other guys, have used this method. I mean, cantley had the ticket of yeah, he had a misdiagnosed disfracture and you know. You know there’s a lot of different tools but you know, sometimes I think it’s becoming a lot more popular and so you got to be a little bit careful because essentially, what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to create an anchor and then you’re trying to, with different angles of the way you position your limbs, you’re creating forces that oppose that anchor and it takes somebody the lot of experience. It’s not as simple as just kind of downloading a video and doing it right the first time. It takes. It’s a skill that you have to develop and you, quite frankly, can’t afford not to have it. I mean, I suffered from back pain.

My background is track and field. I did mixed martial arts type boxing, brazilian Jiu Jitsu and that kind of stuff. When I took a break from golf I played. I started at 11, played golf every day for probably 10 years, got burns out, you know, did the martial arts thing, came back to golf and you know I’ve been, you know, enjoying it ever since, but you know, these are a lot of things that we need to take responsibility for and you know, and just not you know it takes a lot of the fear away, in my opinion, when you have a tool that you’re like okay, I feel this. I haven’t understanding what it is, and that’s kind of what ELDOA practitioners, and so our practice shares, teach people how to do.

0:12:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So can you describe for for all of us, especially kind of the in lay person’s terms as much as possible, what’s actually happening when you’re doing some of these ELDOA techniques and why is it so effective in helping to produce the space, helping to decompress? So that’s a really great question.

0:12:32 – Ryan Degale
So everybody’s seen the inverted tables, right? Yep, so you hang upside down and your ligament system is just hanging upside down and you’re creating space that way. Well, what happens like when you go like this? Then gravity takes over and then you’re like a slinky. You go back to me, decompress, you get temporarily they look pretty bulky to me. They’re not something you just carry in a suitcase, right. Right, say, if you’re with your boys and you’re playing scene Andrews and the links up over there and turmeric and all that, and you start having backman, you have your, you know, upside down inverted table, you don’t.

So the ELDOA method is so, without getting too technical, it reconditions so ligaments connect bone to bone, tendons connect muscle to bone, flashes like Saranrat for our body. That creates a structure and it has intelligence and it communicates with our brain of what’s going on as far as length and tension and all this kind of stuff is extremely intelligent. And what the ELDOA gives you an opportunity to train all these systems to support that disc in gravity. Right, so you’re going to war with your tissues for a minute and so you’re actually stretching those tissues, stretching, stretching and you’re creating end range of motion with all this stuff. And then when you stop the posture and you can tensely do this, that structure is way stronger than it used to be, and so you’re able to do things and create space and fold that space and create circulation to get that disk to where it needs to be. And that’s what the difference is.

0:13:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So it’s almost like you’re creating a space, like an inversion table would create it, but you’re forcefully doing it and while you’re doing it, you’re teaching your body how to support those structures, how to kind of you know. Watching some of your videos online, it’s interesting to see how many little muscles are all around the spine. I think most of us don’t really visualize that when we think of our backs, that there’s so many little muscles, ligaments, tendons, everything that connects all of these different pieces of the back, and so you’re helping to train all of those different pieces to basically support it, almost like a bridge, like a structure hanging from guide wires.

0:14:36 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, yeah for sure, and the great thing is is that the specificity of it. Now, the inverted table is one exercise, right, there’s 120 plus L-doll postures, and so like there’s L-doll postures for the TMJ. I mean, believe it or not, the skull moves. There’s biomechanics of the skull that have two L-doll postures for which are too technical. I’m not that smart. I use the ones for the SI joint in the spine mostly for golf. The ones for the hips are really important. A lot of people have hip pain, a lot of hip replacements and stuff like that.

0:15:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You mentioned the fascia and how basically elusive it is, but how important it is. It’s around everything in our body pretty much. How important is being able to understand its role in not just our body but our posture, our athletic ability, even from the standpoint of swinging faster or moving better. How much does the fascia and how much are we just now starting to learn about how important it is? Because it seems like before it just kind of used to be thought of as almost like a throwaway tissue or like just the saran wrap that holds us together.

0:15:39 – Ryan Degale
I mean I can’t say the bare to myself. I think Europe is far ahead of America when it comes to studying the connective tissue. The people who are the best tissue specialists are in Germany and France and so they haven’t forgotten about it. It’s mostly a little bit more towards the American side. The standard of care in America is a lot different paradigm than it is in Europe. It’s not that great in Europe either, but it’s not very pharmaceutical driven as much. It’s not very surgery driven as much. It’s not as much as much as things like this. They don’t make billions and billions of dollars from pain medication. It’s not mostly an American thing. I mean it’s.

Sometimes people get addicted to pain meds from back issues and that causes a whole other set of issues. The throwaway tissue yeah for sure, that’s what Guy says. He says that a lot of the American scientists they basically threw it away and then studied organ systems and everything that we’re talking about. But it’s there for a reason and it’s almost like it helps disperse energy through the body. It gives us our structure.

We don’t have structure without fascia and so you know how these guys can jump off of buildings with parkour and all that kind of stuff and energy is dispersed correctly and movement disperses energy. Energy is never destroyed, it just changes its form. And so you know, you know, being elastic in the golf swing, having a good energy absorber and having normalization to that fascia and training it in its maximal length will train the nervous system so you’re less likely to have like tears with ligaments and all this kind of stuff. So you’re training that body to almost get ready for being overstretched and having intelligence and having intelligence so you don’t have sprains of lower back issues and that kind of stuff.

0:17:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So are there specific techniques that you use? I mean, obviously we’ve been talking about the aldoes and kind of these one-minute longer postural type situations. But what about for that explosive reactive stuff, for that like the X factor that you are talking about in your Instagram series and that whole stretch and contract, and how do we train the tissue for that? Or even a situation this will ring with a lot of people that we just saw, like in the Super Bowl when that football player was running off the sideline to go into the game and tour as a Achilles. I assume he tours Achilles.

0:17:58 – Ryan Degale
Crazy. Yeah, he did tour as Achilles. I was like, yeah, look at that left leg. I mean, we were just talking about that. And so bridges have cable to sway energy and so in good engineering, everything moves. The earth moves, so you have to sway energy and that’s how our tissues work. As far as that is concerned, I think it’s Hydration definitely plays a role into that sort of stuff, and also a lot of Gee teaches a lot of proprioception and neurological techniques, because ligaments are intelligent, they’re constantly communicating with the brain of like, okay, you’ve heard of the Golgi tendons and stuff like that.

And so there’s ways to create awareness and some of the major ligaments in the hip for better where it is, because a lot of the times most people work on the hardware and don’t upgrade the software. I could have a computer that’s very powerful, but if I don’t have software to tell it what to do, then it’s going to be inefficient. And so with golfers, for instance, if you have issues with trail elbow stuff, there are certain ways to create awareness in the glenicumeral joint or the AC joint, or making sure that you have enough awareness in certain parts of the elbow Because, like takeaway, and then you have a lot of these different arm structures that players are plagued with and this and that, and it can be just kind of a case by case basis and that has kind of a general statement for that. So you know it goes in cycles. So you want to take what somebody needs in the first cycle, say, if they’re extremely tight, they don’t have any. You know they don’t have good motor pathways. You want to, you know, regulate that. And then you go into a lot more reinforcement and reinforcement is so important to stabilize the joint.

If you lengthen you must strengthen right, and so most people, you know, have no mobility. They strengthen and then they go on speed. And then I just put up a story of a 76 year old guy who I took through a program, put him on a stack system. That guy gained over 10 miles an hour at club head speed. Dude, that’s incredible. Like he’s, at 76 years old, swinging between 96 to 104. Whoa, and he started at 89 to 92, I think he said and so, but he’s a general. You know, you put in the work. We barely used any weights. When you get elastic and your brain knows what to do and how to move, it makes the golf instructors job so much easier Because you know these guys have bodies that don’t move in front of them. Then they have to try and make a golf swing out of that, so it’s challenging for them.

0:20:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, if you could go a little bit further into that idea of you know many of us just kind of strengthen, then we try to throw a speed onto it. But you also said if you do end up lengthening, you got to strengthen. Why is that so important, aside from just going and trying to get that extra range of motion or go get more flexible, which is what 90% of the golfers out there think is I just need a bigger turn, I need to stretch more.

0:20:58 – Ryan Degale
Power is nothing without control, and so adding stability and you know if you have if you don’t have enough stability for the body, especially in the spine area, then you’re more subject to ligament tears. You know where they overstretch and there’s not enough stability to support the joint correctly. And so I’ve had people who have programs where we do 80% stretching, 20% reinforcement and you have a little bit of awareness in there. And then I have people that are opposite. I’ve had, like there’s certain golfers who are female, who are hyper elastic, where we do 80% reinforcement, 20%. I didn’t even have them do one stretch, maybe one or two for a certain, maybe some of the internal rotators of the hip and stuff like that. But you know they’re doing, they’re being stabilized because that’s why they have pain. We’re the same guy who has a symptom where he needs to do the opposite program.

0:21:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And when you say reinforcement, what exactly do you mean by reinforcement exercises?

0:21:51 – Ryan Degale
Just strength training you know like, for instance, it depends where their weak areas are, but a lot of the time the proximal hamstrings are weak when you have, you know, your sit bones, where the hamstrings originated.

And then there’s two that goes into the on the meadow part of the knee, one to the outside of the knee, and so do I want to reinforce. Is this person’s knee unstable? There are certain ways to reinforce the fibers that are a little closer to the knee or the pelvis, where the pelvis has weird things going on, where either it’s still too far forward or it has these sort of motions called torsions that cause issues. Most people think they have a leg length discrepancy, where one leg is a little longer than the other, but it’s actually a pelvis issue that you need to address. That’s pushing one side forward and the other one is back, and so you know, and then they start having like issues with plants or fascia, and you know their motion and their gall swing have done balance. Because you know if you have a lot of weight on one side compared to the other, you can cut some prompts.

0:22:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, many times, whatever the area is that they’re having the problem with or the pain in, isn’t necessarily what is really causing that pain.

0:22:56 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, sure, it’s a structural balance thing. I think structural balance like paramount with 80% of. I have about an 80% success rate with people with orthopedic problems, mostly back injuries. They’re low hanging fruit. For me, back injuries is very, very like if they didn’t get hit by a bus or fall over from a you know a two-story building or something. I’m like you got a really good chance. You could be feeling good, and so I just like the easy cases and then I’ll have more complex cases. I had a client from a guy from Canada who had 20 surgeries and so like he’s playing golf pain free. Why can’t you?

0:23:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, wow. So what about the golfers that either have back pain or maybe the ones that don’t have back pain? Maybe this is an even better question. As far as, like a maintenance thing, kind of a preventative maintenance thing, what are one, two, maybe three things that you would recommend Like, hey, these are some, like you said, low hanging fruit things that you can do to maybe prevent it or, you know, help to really almost eliminate or reduce your chances of having back pain with golf.

0:23:59 – Ryan Degale
I have to realize that there is a world outside of the Florida weather and there’s a lot of people out in the North. You know that it gets cold in the morning and stuff like that, and so, like I always put, I like to put the seat warmers on and that kind of gets things. You know, something very simple like that is really huge. You don’t need, like you know, sure, we can get into micro for specifics, but you know, if you go and you start, you know if there’s a gym or anything like that, or you can get on the stationary bike for a few minutes just to get circulation and heat. Most people use ice, which is a big mistake. You want to get circulation and you want to move that water and blood around to create anti-inflammatory properties to that area. And so the seat warmers definitely. You know getting on the bike and stuff like that.

And you know I don’t want to be biased and say learn L-dope postures, but you know, at least have an idea. I’m sure Bryce has a few YouTube videos up that. Only look at Bryce Turner if you must, okay, because there are some things in there that G is not happy about, but Bryce is the man with that stuff. I got to be a little careful because we signed NDAs. You know it’s up to be a little bit. You know I can, you know, do stuff like this, but demonstrating it he gets a little crazy about that.

0:25:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and, like you said, that’s the quality control piece. Right, that’s somebody who has really mastered their craft and doesn’t want to kind of bastardize by just people throwing up YouTube videos, and so definitely we’ll link up to Bryce’s, I guess, youtube channel if he has it. And I know that, like Dan Hellman did a course through TPI, that I know a lot of the TPI specialists. If you’re a coach you can go look at that stuff as well. You know you’re good friends with Dan and highly recommend working with Dan as well.

0:25:49 – Ryan Degale
What about? Yeah, dan’s awesome, he’s actually who put me on to these methods.

0:25:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I took a golf bomb.

0:25:56 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I took a golf bomb mechanic course with him, you know, 12 years ago, and I asked him, you know, do I take the red pill or the blue pill? And he told me the red was G stuff, and so that’s what I did.

0:26:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what about when you find somebody that and you mentioned like some scoliosis, or you have somebody that and I’m kind of speaking about myself you know, you look at somebody, you look at their posture. Maybe on their films, their MRI, their X-rays, you see that their spine spinal curves are maybe not ideal. Are there ways to change that stuff and what are kind of the techniques as far as like, obviously we’ve talked about some of the LDO postures, but what about even just like static stretching or static positioning? You know we’ve seen some of these different things on Instagram where you’re laying over the top of these different devices. Do any of those things work? Or how do we go about kind of changing some of that structural positioning?

0:26:49 – Ryan Degale
You know we’re a little bit more in the school of thought with active versus passive techniques, and so you know not being reliant on, maybe, a machine or anything like that. You know, I just took a scoliosis masterclass with Guy last year and I learned a lot of new things that I didn’t know before. But you know, in a nutshell, you’re gonna wanna be a little bit more into reinforcement, because scoliosis is a rotational disorder. Do you have a C-curve or do you have a functional S-curve? How bad is it? Does it affect your breathing, cause the diaphragm attaches to the spine, are you?

You know, I just had a woman come to me today with lumbar scoliosis and there’s very little spacing on one side of the desk compared to the other. And so you know, ldo postures are awesome for sure, but reinforcement is something you’re gonna more so wanna focus on versus just doing a lot of stretching, because sometimes areas are tight for a reason, and so what you wanna try and do is to try and focus on hey, if I’m really weak on one side, or if you look at somebody with scoliosis, they have substantial more muscle mass on one side. That’s buying for the other, and you wanna try and build up, you know, just without getting too technical, a little bit more symmetry.

0:27:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Gotcha, the last time you and I had a chance to talk, we discussed a little bit about global posture stretching, mild facial stretching, ldo stretching. What’s kind of the differentiation between some of those and how does that apply for some of the stuff we’ve been talking about?

0:28:17 – Ryan Degale
So, um, mild facial stretching is putting a chain of connective tissue under tension with a specific area. So if I want to isolate, you know the biceps from auris bicarbon, you know hamstring muscle, I’m going to do certain things. I’m gonna put a lot of other areas under tension, including the eyes are important with that, but that’s more specific right Now. If I want a global posture stretch, we’re for, say, the thoracolumbar fascia, which is like the connected tissue from the middle despite to the lower back, which is great for my X-Factor series then that’s putting a figure eight of global connected tissue under tension to support the body more in a dynamic manner, in my opinion.

0:29:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, you mentioned the eyes. Why are the eyes so important in some of these?

0:29:04 – Ryan Degale
So the eyes connect to the skin and the brain, called the dura mater, which is the fascia of the brain. So the brain is encapsulated by the dura mater. The dura mater has a connection to C0, which has a link to C1. And so if you want maximal fascial tension, the eyes have to be looking low, the crown head has to be pushing to the ceiling and that puts all the ligament system under tension all the way down to the lower back. For a healthy spine to be healthy, it has to be healthy from C0 to S1. It just has to. And because it’s, you know, remember the bridge, the cables on the bridge, how it sways energy. It’s that’s called tensegrity, right, and so that’s how it structures this first energy. And our body is no different.

0:29:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what’s, what’s one of the well, you mentioned, the guy that you’ve been working with that has, you know, has had major surgeries. I’m just wondering what’s, what are some of the more serious cases that you’ve dealt with and what were some of the things that you had to work on them with? You know people love hearing stories, stories that they resonate with as far as the pain they’ve been through and getting back out on the golf course.

0:30:10 – Ryan Degale
You know, mostly guys. You know I want to be called the grave digger so because I dig those careers out of the dirt when they think you’re dead. You know, and so you know cases where professional golfers you’re like my career is over, I can’t do this anymore. I went to X and Y and tried this and that and got the surgery and it’s. I’m never the first person people go to.

I’m normally, you know, people say they’re the trainer for the PGA tour or like the, or the stars or the celebrities. I’m like the desperate person trainer, you know, because you know what I do is not necessarily flamboyant and but it does have a purpose where he teaches you how to be a master of internal forces, where you can pretty much pinpoint where you need to create space and I’ve helped players, you know, get very fast in a short amount of time with minimal to no risk, because there’s a risk with anything. You know. I just feel like, if you must in golf I like train light, move fast.

Um, olympic weightlifting I’m look, I know how to Olympic weight lift. I’m actually a CrossFit too, god you know like. I worked at a CrossFit gym my early part of my career and I think there’s a lot of good boxes out there too, but like I think people overdo heavy and explosive. You know I don’t mind med ball throws. I think the stack system is superior. I’d prefer to work on flexibility, neurological control and strength, like in a safe way, and then you hit the stack up and then you got a no risk. You know what have you seen and they’re moving well.

0:31:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, what have you seen with, like some heavy lifting, heavy deadlifts? Have you seen any issues with what that does to the spine itself or other tissues that really have steered you away from that stuff?

0:31:55 – Ryan Degale
You know, I assume everybody has scoliosis. So unless you have somebody who has unless I like to get x-rays of every person I train just have a global view. Now I have done Deak teaches something called a gravity squat and there’s variations that somewhat look like a front squat. You know there are some variations that look like a suitcase deadlift, but you’re doing certain things with the pelvis and certain techniques with the eyes and the crown, the head, that put global tension and then you’re just working the lower body and the lower back. So again, it’s the small details that make something that looks almost identical, different and over periods of time that will compound.

0:32:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you look at it, golfers, and you know how they stand over the ball. Looking at posture, do you feel like there is kind of a? Is there somebody that you look at and you say like that tour pro has kind of the quote unquote ideal posture.

0:32:49 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, sure, I think the most important thing is the gravity line. It’s basic, where our brain thinks where we are in space. So you can take, like in front of the earlobe, in front of the. If you have a side view, where you have the earlobe you have the greater Turkana, where the hip bone is, and then in front of the ankle, they call it the lateral malleolite or the mid foot.

And you know a lot of people that I see their palaces are out of order and a lot of their weight shift is on their toes and so in their golf swings this makes a lot of motion from feel of the toe. You can see this. I have a pressure tracer right there. So you know we can actually test for that as well. And you know, you know there’s I hate to use the stair-tip thing like early extension, but you know that’s a cause and effect thing. So you know you can be a golf pro and you have your students. You can’t figure out why they’re having these issues with their pelvis-body motion and it could be because of structural problem, not nothing to do with what you’re saying. You know, and that’s why I, like you know, very good acquaintances with Jim McClain, chris Comon, rick Smith and you know I learned from those guys of how they look at the golf swing with. There’s just so much experience and expertise there and the guys at the top they always collaborate and I’m certainly in the collaboration mode.

0:34:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s got to be cool being able to coordinate with those guys. I know you said you’ve worked with players that work with those guys. How much interaction do you have as far as, like when, let’s say, you’re working with somebody that Jim or Chris or one of those guys is working with and they’re working on something specific in their golf swing? How much collaboration is there between you and them as far as the physical and what’s going on with the body?

0:34:37 – Ryan Degale
It really depends. You know the PGH tour players are. You know it really depends, right, and so there are certain layers. You know I’ve only really you know it’s a pretty political thing, right, and so, like with PGH tour players, it can be challenging because there’s so many different layers of MDs and physical therapists and trainers and stuff like that. Then they’re on the range every week and there’s people in the area, and so it can be challenging that way.

But I mostly take a I’d step back and take a more consulting role with that. Hey, that may be a great idea and you know, this is maybe the routine before, this is a routine after. Hey, maybe they should reinforce their hamstrings a little bit. Maybe they should start working the fibers for the obliques. The obliques are huge because they terminate into the pelvis and the front of the pelvis manages the mechanics for the sacrum bone, and so you know more of a more in that net light. And I don’t like traveling, you know, and so like. This is why I built the studio. I got, you know, I got a golf course across the street. I can go coach from my Sim Room. You know I’d work 70% remote, and then I have an app where you know I download, you know the videos they need to do and that kind of stuff and more of a consultant.

0:35:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
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What are things that you think most golfers should be doing in their training sessions, in their workouts, that you kind of feel like it’s being missed by, and let’s talk a little bit more like not the professional golfers that have a team around them, but let’s talk about the guys that are going out there playing with their club. They’re competitive guys, maybe wanting to go win a club championship, but they’re kind of doing some of this.

Have a bunch of those guys, yeah, so like what are the big things that they’re missing when they go to the gym, or maybe after the round, or before the round, I think?

0:37:32 – Ryan Degale
in 10, I don’t think like exercises. They all do something, but what time is it and what is it for and where is it in a program? Because exercise or just exercise until you build up programs and systems and then there’s execution behind that and so, like you know, the greatest program with somebody who doesn’t have the intent or the consistency will be out formed by somebody at the media occurred to not so great program with great attitude and consistency, and so it depends. It has to be like a blend between those two. But to answer your question, I feel like I think the assessment process maybe maybe there’s. I like specific, like I can’t think too generally, but I, like you know, I’d probably say a little bit more paramount on mobility and stuff like that. I’m taking less risk with certain things that they’re doing.

I’m not a huge fan of long distance cardio whatsoever for golf. I think it just completely wrecks your knees, creates plantar fasciitis and, you know, breeze hip replacements. But sometimes you need to give those guys a look, you know, put them on some interval training, get things going, because you know they’re not on. The PGA tour ended on Nita. There’s, there’s a cardiac component to that is super healthy and so you know, you blind it up Me. I work out five days a week and I don’t only train for golf, you know, I like, I like movement. I push the sled around for sure. But what I necessarily have, you know, somebody who has, you know, it just depends on this case, right? Yeah, yeah, totally.

0:38:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And I think that that’s kind of where a lot of our listeners fall. That’s where I personally fall too much like yourself, like you know, getting in and trying to do some sort of training or working out or exercise almost most days, whether that even just be going for long walks or so. Everything is not about golf, and you and I have talked about the importance of longevity and just itself.

0:39:20 – Ryan Degale
Right, but, but knowing that there’s a come out is incredibly important, but we don’t want it to slow you down like in your golf. If you want to, you know, like how to guy I just signed up yesterday from upstate New York. He’s a plus three, he’s 40 years old, works on Wall Street and he’s a club champion at Quaker Ridge. And he’s like Brian, I don’t care about looking good, I know if I eat well, I just want to hit these high nasty bombs and beat these young kids’ asses. I was like, okay, let’s rock. All right, let’s do that. Yeah, let’s do it. And then I have.

And then I have, you know, another guy who’s just like look, I want to look pretty. You know, I don’t really think that. You know, I don’t really feel great about myself. I want to, I want to. You know, get some of my, you know. And the great thing is that most of these posture and balances you need a hell of a lot of ab work. So you know, nature doesn’t fall as advertised. Normally. If you have strong abs, you know it will show and things like that.

0:40:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, yeah, let’s talk a little bit just about the quote unquote core. Right, we hear how important the core is and you’re mentioning the strengthening of the abs. What are some of the ways that you have found to be most effective to really train and stabilize and reinforce, as the word you’ve used so many times reinforce? Our core and how do you define the core?

0:40:37 – Ryan Degale
Multiple layers, different fascial directions, breathing techniques and many kinds. But you know I like so, Guy, you know we know ab exercise for almost anything you can think of. I mean he’s, he even created a GI series dude. There’s ab techniques that create pumping through each segment of the colon to the precise area, corners, everything you think of, right, they? I mean we talked about the diaphragm only for 30 hours, you know, and so I consider the diaphragm a part of the core. I consider the spinal reactors with the logisomus, ilicastellus and transverse banalis, all layers of the core, especially the internal bleaks.

I think you get both bank your buck from working the obliques man, because you know they have, they connect ribcage, pelvis, sternum, you name it, they all have. You know it’s all a piece and there’s different layers to all this kind of stuff. And so I mean we know how to. I mean whether I think he spent three days only on the TVA. I mean you know what I mean.

So I think the abs are very misunderstood and I used to be a part of this school of thought where I felt like if I deadlifted, squatted and I was doing all the different things that will include the abs and then I’d work on my abs and like shit, these guys are weak. What’s going on? You know I can deadlift. I’ve deadlifted. You know, when I was doing mixed martial arts I’d deadlifted 485 with no bells or strap, maybe 165 pounds. I was really strong, but I was just like I can’t even do like roll and unroll general sit-ups for like 40, 50 reps. You know what’s that all about, right? And so there’s something. If you look at Pascal’s Law, it’s basically the. You know, when we’re talking about remember, I think, did you bring out Mackenzie, or is that another interview?

0:42:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I didn’t, but no, I didn’t but go ahead.

0:42:30 – Ryan Degale
Okay, so you have many kinds of herniations. You can herniate a disc, you know, in the front of the disc, the side posterior, and there’s a sub-sacrifice to that, and so, like you know, the school of thought is that if you do inflection all the time, then that can herniate a disc with the posterior part, which you know you could also like. For instance, if I put you know, pascal’s Law is the physics of water and how water works, and we have to understand this, because most of our bodies made of water and the spacing between the discs are, you know, it’s a synovial fluid, right? And so we need to train our abs to be complete to do certain things. Because, look look at golf swing, right, you have, you know you’re in this position, right? You’re right here, it’s been fletching and you’re doing a lot. There’s a lot of fletching going on right here and you know, with these different torsions, and so I think we need to train those abs, especially in the flexor chain, carefully, understand who’s in front of you, but we need to reintroduce that.

I think you know these sort of studies were done in 1973 on six college students and it was never refuted any of the research because we asked about this during abs class because we have a ton of physios in there, so naturally they’re going to ask like, hey, this is what’s the deal. And so you know, to answer your question, they’re the obliques, they’re the biggest bank for your buck. I don’t really use a ton of cable machines. I have. I have, like the uh, the K box a little bit that I use for, you know, the eccentric training or deceleration training, but I think we get a, you know, just getting very, you know, straight in the abs with your body weight and then going to the golf course and because we don’t need to do too many things that look like a golfing in the gym. From my experience, so what?

0:44:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
what do some of those strengthening exercises for your oblique? Not that we’re going to be doing demonstrations, but I mean we’re talking like, uh, some side planks and rotation and planking positions just to get people a little bit of an idea. Planks man?

0:44:26 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I think I think anybody even with back pain if they’re back pains below five on a scale of one, it’s had for symptoms they can make sure they tuck their pelvis and they’re pushing away. And there’s so many things you can do with a plank. That is really awesome because the ground is a movable. So if I want to factor progression, I don’t like planks that last more than 30 seconds. That means you’re not pushing hard enough, right? So you’re pushing away. That means you get all the rib cage and the serratus muscles that attach to the scapula. You can take your elbows, you can bring them into the floor. That activates the upper abs and then you’ve got a pelvic tilt.

That, um, actually my ebook all has this. I just wrote an ebook oh sweet, staying the game. It’s called staying the game, um, how to gain confidence and speed coming back from a back injury and I have some some stuff in there and so when you tuck underneath you get a lot of the lower ab fibers and so, like that’s complete, you’re not doing anything crazy. There’s not a lot of you know, and you know if you have back being in play safe that way, that’s totally cool.

0:45:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I feel like the big takeaway from a lot of what you’re you’re educating us on is really the intention of it, right, the like it doesn’t. You don’t have to lift a bunch of weight. You can do. I mean, all of this, most of this is is just simply body weight and getting in a position. Yeah, but understanding what the intention is, where you’re trying to feel it, where you’re trying to push and move and and pull, and it’s those little connections from the brain to those muscles, tendons, ligaments, that really are going to make the most benefit and make the difference.

0:45:53 – Ryan Degale
And it’s something somebody can do. Like what’s the number one complaint? It’s time. It doesn’t require like a ton of time. I just like I’ve had people be like I did 40 minutes of homework today. I’m like why you sound inefficient. Like how much rest are you taking in between? I told you do four things with the minute rest in between for three to four sets. How’d that take you 40 minutes, you know? Do you feel like you can do that for 20 years every day? No, so like why are you doing it like that? Now, if you’re on the LPJ or PJ, it’s why I’m like you better frigging, do that, because it’s your job. You have a multimillion dollar spine but for you know Jack and Jill, you know account and an attorney, they, you know what. What. That’s not sustainable. Yeah, yeah, you can.

Efficiency efficiency dude.

0:46:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you could do these things sitting at your desk and then eat lunch and then get back to your desk and you know 30 minutes, whatever it is. It’s great that you said that.

0:46:43 – Ryan Degale
I have a guy who runs a fun over in Michigan. He’s like a plus one. He plays in state tournaments and stuff he’s doing. You know rotator cuff stretches in his office because that’s when he has most of his time. He walked around his thing. Of course he has his putter and you know he’s there straight. You know it is yeah. So it doesn’t have to be structured per se, it just has to be consistent.

0:47:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, Last thing before we jump into our our final questions here Foam rolling. You know, we’ve talked about fascia, we’ve talked about the tissue. What about all these self-mile fascial tools and things like that? Okay, I don’t like them.

0:47:21 – Ryan Degale
And this is this is just my opinion. I’ve been approached by probably five or six companies a month, three Instagram to promote their products and I was like I’m sorry, I don’t use it in my practice, like it would not come off genuine If I’m, if I’m collaborating with a product or a person and stuff, I believe what they do and you know, I just can’t associate myself. So one thing Gied noticed right, with connected tissue. And there’s also a lot of other good literature, um, a few books over here. If I could just like a hold them up for maybe some of the physios or retrainers out there we want to, you know, take a deep dive into anatomy and so pressure, very sensitive to pressure.

Um, because the connected tissue like this is this is why I’m amazing massage therapist is so important to be careful of who you know works on your, on your tissues. Right, because pressure changes, listening to the body, that takes a lot of time and experience to to um, you know, acquire and so, like, most people have no understanding of the direction of the fascia and which you need to pump. Right, because everything is like a lymphatic system. Right, most people destroy their TFL and their IT band anyways and then they crush their quads. I’ve seen across the genes. They use a PVC pipes and all this crazy stuff. And so, like, fascia wants to be hydrated and it wants to have length and freedom, and that’s what it needs.

And so this is why, in my opinion, the GPS, the ELDOA and the myofascial stretching are superior, because you’re using your own tissues and there’s global pressure throughout the entire chain when you’re in a posture where you don’t, where you don’t create inflammation and that’s not an opinion. I mean, dan did a great presentation at the T uh, we’re a golfing and summit on why he doesn’t like foam rollers either. So that that’s maybe I’m biased, but, um, you know, I I really trust and he’s a lot smarter than me and he’s a lot smarter than Dan.

0:49:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, yeah, Well, that’s, that’s why we have individuals like you on here, because you guys have so much depth of knowledge and Dan and some of the other people that have come on and, and you know the, the video that, um, I think Guy has about the tissue and fascia, uh, for me that really kind of showed how you know how sensitive that tissue is. Um, I don’t even know if you remember the, the name of the video, or or you know the video that I’m referencing, but, um, I think it was maybe Dan that had turned me on to and it actually looked like under the surface of the skin, at the, the tissue that was yeah, yeah, John George.

0:49:51 – Ryan Degale
I think John George sorry, that’s a chef Um, I’ll have to check the author. Yeah, I mean, I think I have maybe around 1200 hours of of it, uh, with Guy. I’ve spent about 1200 hours with him, so, um, he’s, uh, he’s awesome. And then there’s some other. You know, like Bryce is great for El Doa. Um, you know, and these are tools that are so fundamental to helping your clients. I mean, geez, you know, you can really make a difference in somebody’s quality of life with this stuff, and, uh, it does make a huge difference.

0:50:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Did you want to go grab those books that, uh, that you mentioned? Yeah, we’ll. We’ll pop them up on the screen. Yeah, and there’s a view of um, uh, this couple.

0:50:30 – Ryan Degale
I really like Nectar’s for other stuff, you know, because I’m a picture boy, yeah, and uh, grey’s Anatomy 1908 edition is a little bit too old English for me, but uh, here’s one of them. All right, this is probably the one that you’re talking about.

0:50:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, Yep Architecture of human living fascia.

0:50:46 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, and so it basically goes through the structures and you know how, how delicate things are. I mean, hopefully people don’t have a. You know, there’s a lot of anatomy in there, yeah.

0:50:55 – Jeff Pelizzaro
This, this is for all the coaches and medical professionals.

0:50:58 – Ryan Degale
On, on and so you and and so you know also with this, you know, go through different fascial slings and relationships and stuff like that, and I think is you know, if you want to do things at a very high level, is that okay? If I show a dead body, yeah For sure, right? So stuff like that. You need to know where the direction of fibers are and you know when you become a structure of dispersion correctly, you’re more less than likely to have these major problems.

0:51:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. Well, so that that last text that you just showed is that where you get some of the images that you’re putting on your Instagram as a recently.

0:51:34 – Ryan Degale
No, I don’t that’s from, that’s from Jason. He’s a sports Cairo from. I just took a a Pelus Balm Mechanics course. I’ve taken that course six or seven times because again, I’m still have another 28 to go before everything is clear.

0:51:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, and so, yeah, I mean so for those of you listening, go check out Ryan’s Instagram, which is it’s golf underscore and underscore body, right, Ryan? Yeah, Go check that out. He does some amazing videos. He gets very detailed on some of the anatomy and then goes and shows a lot of different exercises. He’s doing a great series right now on the X factor, so by all means go check that out. Is that the best place for them to go and kind of follow what you’re doing?

0:52:17 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I’m starting to bring up my Facebook presence. You know there’s a lot of golfers on Facebook, especially with older guys. You know that have been transitioned to the Instagram over there. Yeah, so the first five part series is 15, 15 videos in which you know we’re the first five. I’m showing you stretches, correct, freedom. We’re going to create freedom because the X factor is essentially the, the measurement between how far the pelvis turns backwards and how far your rib case can turn over that pelvis.

Okay, and so the the more explosive players like Gordon Sargent and Roy Mac around these guys, they have just the most amazing difference between those two. So the average player has a 42 degree X factor. So if your hips turn 48 degrees and your hips and your shoulders turn 90, that means you have 42. Roy has over 63. Wow, so he’s getting like probably 105 to 10 degrees of shoulder turn with X, whatever that is, you know, minus the X factor, minus what his hip turn is.

And so this acts like a coil. And so when good players, they start turning their pelvis towards the target, even sometimes before they finish their back, this act, this creates a stretch. So you actually have more of a stretch with the X factor that way, and if you can’t do that in a controlled environment and not free tissues, I just never understood how you could do that with 120 miles an hour, or even a hundred miles an hour, for that matter. So the next five videos would be five neurologic goal things. Now we have all this extra space, we can now focus on major areas of the hip that our brain needs to learn how to use. And then, of course, we got the reinforcement at strength of the last five. Hey, how do I have all this Now that I don’t hurt myself, now that I have to be strong to for golf?

0:54:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Perfect, and so that’s a. You said a 15 video, 15 video sequence that’ll be coming out.

0:54:07 – Ryan Degale
Yep, I, I, I’m on a video for right now. I filmed 10 already, so I just needed to do the reinforcement section. Awesome.

0:54:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, my man, let’s uh, let’s finish up with our end of the segment questions which you know. Or first one, caddy Shack or happy Gilmore.

0:54:23 – Ryan Degale
Caddy Shack. He’s been a member of Grand Oaks, so where are they filmed it? That’s right. That’s right. I forgot you had.

0:54:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I mean.

0:54:28 – Ryan Degale
Ronnie Dainterfield man, I mean I don’t know how like that guy’s an absolute legend, you know. I mean there I there’s more quotes from that movie than certainly more than Gilmore, for sure, right.

0:54:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I would. There’s. There’s quite a few from Gilmore, but I I personally quote Caddy Shack almost every day. Yeah, yeah.

0:54:46 – Ryan Degale
They could yeah, exactly, all right, what’s?

0:54:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
your walkup song. If you can pick a walkup song to the first T.

0:54:53 – Ryan Degale
Oh man, that’s a really good question. You know I’ve I may. I may not look like a fighter, but my walkup song, uh, in my I have had five mixed martial arts fights. Um was 50 cent mini mince.

0:55:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Nice.

0:55:10 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, I’ll like 50.

0:55:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, Is there a book that you would recommend to the 18STRONG crew, and this could be. This could be fitness golf. This could be anything in life that you, it has meant a lot to you, or that you tend to give out as a gift to people.

0:55:25 – Ryan Degale
Well, I think that’s the most, uh, difficult question because I love to read. You know, I thought one of the most interesting books that nobody talks about is nutrition and physical degeneration by Weston A Price, who is a um, who was a dentist and a and a medical um, a nutrition researcher in the 1920s, in which his research is buried because the American medical association didn’t like what they’re, what they funded, what the results were. Back in those days, most people had crowding at the teeth where they had narrow jaws and deviated septums, and you’ll notice this. This actually is conducive to processed foods, processed sugar. They had issues with tuberculosis back then and stuff like that, and they’re way more healthy back in those days than now.

Right, I mean, we’re so lucky we have modern medicine, because there would be people dropping like flies out there, because now more than ever we need to self educate men. It’s hard to trust sources these days because it’s funded like Hoffman. Larouche funded the first dietary program in colleges to teach dietitians how to sell processed food from the food guy pyramid. Because if you like the food guy pyramid, then you look like a pyramid and then you become diabetic and then they get you a medication and then you can’t sleep and then you get a medication, and then you’re backers because you’re overweight and then you get a medication and that’s called an annuity for life. I mean good business for them, not so much for the public right, I was a clinical nutritionist for 10 years around medical labs. I decided to focus only on orthopedics because I wanted to be the best I possibly could and I enjoyed orthopedics more.

0:57:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Great suggestion. Definitely have to check that out.

0:57:05 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, there’s plenty of tea like pitchers, and this is important because our dental health is closely related to our biochemistry in our body. So if you’re getting cavities or something seriously wrong with your body, chemistry, biochemistry. So he would compare a primadize diet to modernized diets and the difference was with whole foods and animal fats and proteins. So this all this low fat propaganda, all this like villainizing saturated fats, get into soy, get into vegetable oil, all that is just marketing to get you, it’s to scare you into buying their products. And that’s the truth. And most people know this now. But they didn’t even know this 10 years ago. Like I had a lot of backlash with the girl like are you serious? My doctor told me you’re gonna kill me. I was like what? What you know? Because they only get eight hours of basic nutrition and then eight or nine years they go to medical school and that’s all for food gap pyramid. And so you know you can’t compete with doctors. Word like I don’t you know. So the orthopedics is a natural stepping step.

0:58:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Crazy, yeah, all right, who would be in your dream celebrity foresum? If you got to pick a foresum of anybody in the world, pastor, president, who you taking?

0:58:19 – Ryan Degale
You know I’m a big F1 fan. I like Eretan Santa. I know a lot of F1 golfers do play golf, but Eretan maybe I didn’t even care if he’s the 30 handicapper, it’d be cool to pick his brain. Of course, tiger Woods because he’s transcended the game. And the last one man, I mean it may sound cliche, but already because he made golf cool. And you know I’m a huge believer in making it accessible to as many people as possible versus being kind of a little bit more of an elitist thing. You know, because what golf has taught me since I’ve been playing, since I was 11, everything was free for me. There was a guy in Barbados called Denny Foster who put a club in my hand and this opened so many doors for me. I mean, the seat time I get and who I can network with because of this game is just it’s a joke. And you know kind of pretty. Made me work, who I am today Having access to that, versus maybe 20, 30 years ago it wasn’t like that. So I like guys like Eastside Golf, but we’re some of their. You know their hoodies and apparel because you know it’s cool, make it cool. You know where the Jays or the Dung or whatever you know and just make golf cool. You know that’s why Anthony Kim was so popular. You know he had those huge belt buckles on point.

I just feel like guys these days they’re a little bit too. You know they’re robotic and sure there’s a lot at stake, but you know it’s an entertainment sport. You know, maybe this is why good good is getting some more views than PGA for events. I mean, I was watching the match the other day. I was like you know it’s a little bit boring. I’m going to turn on good good and watch Michael Thurbey on some hit bombs and talk about his injuries. And Rory was on TV. I’m sorry, but I mean you know we want to be entertained and I feel I don’t. I’ve been to a few live events since I was a member at Durell. I think they’re really close to having the right product. They need to go to 72 poles I don’t like the music in between and the shotgun starts to get all that and then they have a killer product, dude, and I think that that’s going to where the game is going to be going to.

1:00:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, we haven’t had one around here that I know of yet, and so I definitely be interested in checking it out and seeing seeing what the vibe is. I know the people are on one side of the fence or the other, really, but I definitely be interested in checking it out.

1:00:29 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, shotgun starts don’t make sense to me, because they you know they’re supposed to be ebbs and flow, golf course, architecture.

1:00:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and these guys don’t care.

1:00:37 – Ryan Degale
These old guys don’t care about playing. They’re on my, my two TVs. They are. They’re on my. They’re playing Asian tour events for world ranking points all the time it’s off for less golf at around. Get the world ranking points and get rid of that stupid shotgun start and you know and just dominate. You know what I mean.

1:00:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, well, we’ll see what happens with that and you know it’s, it’s interesting to see. I mean now, with Rom going over there and and rumors of some other people maybe heading that way, it’ll be. These next couple of years are going to be. I can’t wait to see this Netflix series that just came out, to see some of the behind the scenes of all of that stuff.

1:01:10 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, it should be interesting. Do you see the the Rom dinner reservation card? Oh, you know the past champion, the? Well, the champion from last year, did you know? I think, what do you say? Meet the PGA tours players. Finally meet on the 18th green at 6pm, you know?

1:01:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, you know so that. So that came out last year on I think it was Shephlers I don’t know if those, I can’t tell if that was a joke. If I’ve heard some people say that that wasn’t a real deal and that they just redid it for Rom’s, this for Rom’s this year. So I don’t know, but either way I thought it was fine, it’s just wrong, way better right now.

1:01:45 – Ryan Degale
It’s just wrong, way better right now, you know he’s probably gonna fly there on his personal helicopter when he’s there now, no kidding.

1:01:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, this, that’ll be interesting to watch, all right, so so you’ve got. You’ve got the F1 driver, you’ve got Tiger, you’ve got Arnie the king. If we had the 18th Strong Jet and we could take you anywhere in the world. What’s your bucket list, course that you’re going to with these guys?

1:02:06 – Ryan Degale
Gosh first Augusta. But you know on value nice to not be like these memories. You still need to take me.

1:02:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s definitely on the list over here, I believe. I believe you said your client. You’ve got a client named Jim. I’ve got a client named Jim, both members of Pine Valley. I think we need to get on to Jim’s and get down there. All right, what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given?

1:02:36 – Ryan Degale
GDO Arnie Ells was hitting bunker shots and I walked over to him I said hey, I’m on a body. You know, how do you, how are you so fluid? You said you’re so big and stuff like that be easy. He said just wait on it because you know, most of the swing flaws are G2 improper sequencing, you know, and sometimes less is more in this game and so just, you know, be a little bit more patient. It helped me because I was quick and hitting some little left hurts and you know, after that I was hitting some high draws, low spin. It was pretty amazing because I have a lot of speed. And so if there’s like some things that are a little bit off, are you a little quick? Get ugly real quick.

1:03:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Hard to argue with anything that big earn says.

1:03:22 – Ryan Degale
Yeah, he’s a stud. I mean it’s crazy what he was able to do back when the Tiger era. I mean how’d you win that many times when Wood was at his peak dude? And same thing with Mcklisson. I mean he’s not exactly as popular as he used to be, but you got to respect. You know what what he was doing.

1:03:37 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Totally All right, my man. Last one is there a social media account that you follow? You? Obviously your Instagram is is blown up and you know, I always like to get an idea of what are some of the other accounts out there that people like yourself are watching, paying attention to. That the 18th wrong crew can benefit from.

1:03:56 – Ryan Degale
You know I’m a really big fan of personal development and mindset. I really think that Alex Hermozzi is the is the king of practical application and mindset, because you know you really difficult out there guys, and you know it’s. It’s especially with everything going on AI if you have a job that may be at risk for this sort of stuff. You got to be able to adapt and create value and I really liked that. This is why I decided to come out the shadows and start. You know, I was like you know I need to, I need to go and come out into the world. World. I’m going to start a YouTube channel and and I thought I was about a year ago that I decided to do this and so you know, I’m going to just basically be working, having online business with you know, some in person, of course, but mostly online.

1:04:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, you’ve taken it and you’ve run with it, so whatever you’re doing, it’s working, my man.

1:04:48 – Ryan Degale
Appreciate it, man. It was awesome. Thanks for having me on the show. I mean I could talk about golf and this stuff like for another 10 hours, so I appreciate you led me Babel.

1:04:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, man, well, let’s have, let’s continue this conversation down at Pine Valley. How about that?

1:05:02 – Ryan Degale
I love that.

1:05:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You called Jimbo’s up. You got it All right. Ryan, really appreciate you coming on. Everybody go check out Ryan over on Instagram golf underscore and underscore body, tons and tons of great information. Go on over there, check it out and Ryan can’t thank you enough again for coming on.

1:05:19 – Ryan Degale
Thank you, have a good one.

1:05:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Bobby Holland (Founder Hoolie Golf, Retired Navy Seal))
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 369
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Join us as we sit down with Bobby Holland, the retired Navy SEAL whose love for golf blossomed into the creation of Hoolie Golf, a golf apparel brand embodying hard work, grit, and resilience. Listen in as Bobby shares his remarkable transition from an elite military operative to a passionate golf entrepreneur. His story is not just about picking up the game later in life, but how the competitive drive and discipline learned from the SEALs fueled his determination to improve his swing, even leading to the construction of a driving range during a combat deployment. Bobby’s journey is a vivid illustration of never being too late to chase new dreams and how skills honed in one aspect of life can profoundly impact another.

Our conversation with Bobby is a tapestry of tales from action movies sparking a young boy’s dream of becoming a SEAL, to the mental toughness and training insights necessary to endure the challenges of BUD/S. Bobby brings to light the crucial role of relentless optimism and breaking down massive goals into manageable steps, a philosophy that not only saw him through the rigors of military training but also serves as a foundation for his entrepreneurial spirit. His reflections on the nostalgia of 80s action films and the camaraderie found in both military units and sports teams paint a picture of the interconnectedness of his past passions and current pursuits.

In our discussion, Bobby doesn’t shy away from the personal challenges he’s faced, such as rebuilding strength after an injury or embracing the intricacies of golf fitness. He takes us through his commitment to mobility, functional range of motion, and how these have influenced his performance both in the gym and on the golf course. Through Hoolie Golf, Bobby is not just offering apparel; he’s fostering a community for golf enthusiasts and those with a growth mindset. So tune in for a dose of inspiration, a glimpse into the synergy between entrepreneurship and golf, and perhaps even pick up a few recommendations for your next walk-up song or must-read book.

Bobby Holland is a retired Navy SEAL Chief Warrant Officer who retired from the military in 2021 after 21 years of service. He joined the Navy in 2000, graduated SEAL training in late 2001, and spent the next two decades in the SEAL teams, deploying nine times around the globe.

Halfway through his career, Bobby was introduced to golf and has been a passionate golfer ever since. After finishing his military service, Bobby went to graduate school at UCLA’s Anderson School of Management and it was there that he found the inspiration for his next career.

In the Spring of 2023, Bobby co-founded and launched Hoolie Golf, a golf apparel company that offers uniquely badass golf polos, and golf hats for diehard golfers. Bobby hopes that through Hoolie, he can share his journey with golf and inspire other active-duty military and veterans to connect with this great game.

(00:04) Navy SEAL Turned Golf Apparel Entrepreneur

Retired Navy SEAL Bobby Holland’s passion for golf led to building a range during deployment, showcasing hard work, grit, and resilience.

(07:39) Journey From SEAL to Golf Entrepreneur

A former SEAL’s unexpected journey of integrating golf into military life, leading to the creation of Hoolie Giolf apparel company.

(15:29) From Action Movies to Navy SEALs

Childhood passions shape our future, from action movies to SEAL training, with a nod to 80s nostalgia and camaraderie in sports and military units.

(23:27) Mental Toughness and Training Insights

Relentless optimism and progressive training in Navy SEALs, addressing media portrayal and underwater tests with humor.

(29:59) Hoolie Golf

Hoolie Golf brand’s origins, ethos, and appeal to resilient, growth-minded individuals who use mental discipline techniques from Navy SEAL experience.

(41:31) Improving Mobility and Fitness Progress

Overcoming physical limitations, setting fitness goals, and utilizing social media for ongoing development.

(46:19) Fitness and Business Resilience

Incorporating new fitness routines, grit and resilience, and the future plans for a golf community.

(52:07) Entrepreneurship and Golf for Veterans

Entrepreneurship and military service, therapeutic benefits of golf for veterans, pop culture debate, personal insights, and book recommendations.

@DelusionallyConfident

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0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18 Strong Podcast, episode Number 369 with Bobby Holland from Hoolie Golf. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18 Strong Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode we have Bobby Holland from Hoolie Golf. Bobby is a retired Navy SEAL that started a golf apparel company, so this episode we get to talk about all of his stories from overseas and his deployments, his training for buds and seals and how that has really impacted not only his golf game but also building a business in the world of golf. And we definitely dive into his addiction as a golfer so much of an addiction that he built his own driving range on one of his combat deployments, where he literally had to go out and shag golf balls in the moon dust to go pick up the range balls. So this episode is all about hard work, grit and resilience, which is what the Hoolie brand is all about and really what we’re all about here at 18 Strong. So you’re really going to enjoy this one with Bobby Holland.

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0:02:19 – Bobby Holland
There’s it, man. I think a lot why I created this brand was this kind of out of nowhere love that I found for the game. And there’s a lot of other people like me that you’re not all Hoolie’s pick up golf late, but there’s all folks like us, like me, that did pick it up late and fall in love, man, and it just triggered that. Being a seal, being an athlete, being a competitor and then finding this thing that you can’t do very well Kind of drove me nuts and got hooked and yeah, man, it’s been a fun journey and I mean so passionate about the game that I opened up my own golf apparel company, right.

0:03:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Crazy, that’s awesome. When I first saw, I saw a post about you when you were on Jaco’s podcast and I was like, oh my gosh, I got to get Bobby on the show because this is just. This is so cool to hear a guy that was in the seals, just like the rest of us. This game boggles our minds, completely right, and it’s so frustrating, it’s so hard and I could only imagine that you as an elite level operator coming into something. It’s just this little white ball sitting on a tee and all I got to do is hit it down there. That’s got to be easy, right. How frustrating was it coming into the game at that level, coming out from your background?

0:03:36 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I mean you’re hitting the nail on the head. Two weeks back at the Pebble Beach Pro-Am I’m not sure if you caught the video of Tom Brady Duffin it off the tee, I mean that says it all You’re talking about arguably one of the best competitors of our generation picks up a golf club and having a hard time. And yeah, man, it’s one of those things that I still struggle with because I want to be so much better. Unfortunately, life and business and other things get in the way and I just do what I can. But I love the challenge. I mean, that’s really what drives me is, every time you show up to the golf course is a legit opportunity that you can have your best round, and it can happen like that. Both of my best rounds were exactly like that. Never saw them come in. It’s not like my swing was in super great shape, so there’s a little bit of that kind of gambler mentality. But the chase, the hunt, yeah, I love it, man.

0:04:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So for those of the listeners that don’t know your story, don’t know the story behind Hoolie and everything, give us just a little background on you, obviously Navy Seals, but kind of tell us a little. I know you played football, so give us a little bit of that. And about some of the tours, how many tours you went on, and then we’ll dive into where Hoolie came from and go from there.

0:04:58 – Bobby Holland
Sure, I’m a California kid, born and raised up in a place called Fresno, Actually lived in Clovis that’s the same hometown as Bryce and DeChambeau, by the way but yeah, just kind of a wiry kid, you know. You’d like to mix it up a little bit. I played football and in wrestling. Those were my two big sports up until high school and then I was all in on football and that was just a big part of my upbringing as an athlete and it’s where I got into fitness in general. So I mean, we started strength training, powerlifting back there in high school and I’ve been doing that ever since, so kind of grew love for that as well. Well, anyways, I found myself at the end of high school the big so what that most of us face. What am I doing now? And I didn’t quite have it figured out, I went, Peter, around in a community college for a couple of years and it was in that time that I, you know, the idea of becoming a SEAL came to be and I basically devoted the next 18 months of two years to train to be a SEAL and that was like the first time I had, you know, set a goal really, and it was quite a lofty goal, had to teach myself how to run, swim, all those things. I ended up joining the Navy in January 2000 and went straight in, went to boot camp, went to A school, which is like your specialty rating, and then I went to Buds, which is the SEAL selection course, and then got through 9-11, hit and then I graduated SEAL qualification training two months later and then went to my first SEAL team and from there I just did a bunch of deployments, was pretty active. I did I think 9 deployments total. Not all of them were combat sandbox deployments, but did a bunch. Did 5 to Iraq, did a really really short one to Afghanistan, bounced around some other parts of the world, but had a really good career. Like you know, good timing. Some people may disagree but I came in the SEAL teams to do that job and you know, right after 9-11, we were busy last two decades, pretty damn busy. And yeah, we were talking before the show started.

You know about picking up golf about 12, 13 years ago and kind of wasn’t meant to be. It was one of those things that I didn’t have an aversion to golf, I just didn’t get it. Yeah, you know what I mean. I mean that was it. I was cut from this cloth. I like hardcore music, I like punk rock, I like in the gym, I like doing things pushing myself. I just didn’t get it.

And we had an opportunity. We were actually waiting to deploy. One of the guys suggested hey, let’s take the boys out. We had some time like our deployment got delayed, so we went out and I mean it literally happened in the course of I’m sure it was a god-awful long round of a five-hour round. I fell in love with golf. I hit a couple of shots out there and it was just perplexed Like you know why can’t I do this every time Went, got clubs and then it just metastasized from there, you know.

So I was halfway into my career, being at SEAL, still operating, doing all the stuff. How do you make this work? But yeah, I traveled with my golf clubs everywhere, took them on some combat deployments. One deployment wasn’t in the combat zone but it was in the Middle East. We had this compound, this giant like moon dust compound, huge, open. Well, I ended up building myself a range there. So I got like a some plywood and I built a platform like in the middle of nowhere basically, and I brought 300 range balls with me that a golf course was nice enough to donate and I would just go. Anytime I had some off time I’d go hit in my range, you know. But yeah, so you know, fast forward.

Some some years later did another decade or so in the teams and then found myself you know, my time in the teams. It just basically expired. I was at the end of my career, you know, around the 15 year mark. I transitioned from what we call an operator, which is someone who’s in a SEAL platoon being deployed to do SEAL missions. I got pulled from that and basically was in various managerial leadership positions, running training et cetera. So did that for the latter part of my career and then was trying to find something to do. Really, I mean, that’s that’s where I found myself. I knew it was my time to get out and I ended up going to business school.

Ucla has a executive MBA program, so had some buddies who had gone through that and said really great things and I thought that would be a good kind of you know, runway out of the teams into real life. So went to that and or started that, I should say and near the start of that program I had the epiphany for what would become Hoolie, because it wasn’t exactly what it looks like now, but I had an idea and I brought it up. It was a concept that I brought up during a. Basically, they have an entrepreneurial pipeline, a series of classes that you take either you have to join a team or you have to build a team. So I said, to hell with it, man, let’s, let’s give it a go, see what I can do. So I had to recruit my team, had to pitch the idea to them, and then basically, we took it through a series of classes and kind of graduated from one class to the next, end up being our capstone.

And then, by the end of it and I should back up, this is where I met my partner, Kevin Lee. He’s got a background in apparel, garment, sourcing operations, so perfect fit for where we are. But yeah, we, we basically built Hoolie in business school, you know, out of a shared passion for golf and in wanting to do cool things and and to create fun stuff, man. So, you know, fast forward another year. We launched last April. And here we are, man, some ten months later, you know, first year in business. Yeah, man, kind of ran through that pretty fast but uh.

0:12:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No, there’s so many jumping off points that we’re gonna dive into. And you know most people they say like their golf addicted or they’re addicted to the game. But but you literally took your clubs on combat missions, you built it, you built your own personal driving range Overseas. You brought bucket, a bucket of balls. So like then I assumed you had to then go pick up, go shag those golf balls and bring them back and topple.

0:12:31 – Bobby Holland
Amazing moon dust dude. So like I would be wearing these combat boots Because that stuff was like all over. Yeah, it was. I did not come back with 300 balls.

0:12:41 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I probably came back with, you know, 30 by the end of it now Did other guys like start to catch on with you and like, hey, bobby, can I go hit hit balls at your range? Or like, was it just you, you?

0:12:51 – Bobby Holland
know it started that way. Well, when, when we first picked up golf, like a lot of us picked it up and it slowly, you know, they they kind of lost their interest, a lot of them. I continued that, but no, I was solo on that deployment. I was in a a staff position essentially, so I was. I was in staff hell some of the time. I would basically get out of the joint operation center and just to clear my mind and and, and, just you know, tried to stay in touch with golf because, you know, when I picked up golf, I ended up doing another Five deployments.

These deployments can range in time. Some are pretty short. Yeah, I did a couple that were two or three months, but I did some that were seven months. So it’s a long, long ways to, or long, long time to be away from the game, especially when you’re trying to pick it up and you’re trying to build that momentum and all that like. So, yeah, I had a decade worth of like, making progress, making progress and then losing all that and then starting Rebuilding and it wasn’t until I had some stability in my job Around 2017 that I was actually able to to practice and to play pretty regularly and, and and. Then I mean shocker. I got like a lot better yeah.

0:14:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah. I want to go back a little bit to to when you Were kind of transitioning and decided to go into the seals. Is that something, what made you even Decide to pick that path? And when you do like, do you decide then like, as you’re going in, like I’m shooting for the seals, or is it once, once you get through like the initial initial boot camp, that you then decide to go that direction?

0:14:39 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I think it’s true. I mean it’s basically true today, as it was back then. But essentially my path was well, there’s one slight difference. My path was directly to the teams or to seal selection training buds. I had a ticket that was written in my contract. I did have to go to a, a you know school to. Basically, back then they used to give you a regular and I don’t mean this like in a bad way a regular Navy job, like there’s plenty of Navy jobs out there. Back in the day you had to have a Navy job in case that you don’t make it through seal training, you’d have something to fall back on. That has since changed. So now people can go basically to boot camp and then go straight to selection training. But yeah, for me, you know I Was raised on action movies, you know I it sounds silly as hell.

You know a lot of people have this epiphany that, of course, like these, you know, wanting to serve, wanting to be on an, on the lead team. But I’m just, you know, a fan of action movies and just intrigued by the military in general. And you know I started looking into that. You know, obviously the military isn’t Isn’t 80s action movies, but nonetheless, you know that that took me down the path to start checking it out and looking into it, and the more I looked into it I was just really intrigued by it, you know.

So back then, post Vietnam, there had been a couple conflicts, but it was just kind of clandestine missions and and working with, you know, in elite group of highly trained individuals, you know, being on that type of team, especially playing team sports, was very attractive to me. And again, I’m a young man in my early 20s, like what else am I doing? I Didn’t have some other path that I was like weighing my options. I’m sure I would have figured something out, but it seemed intriguing, seemed exciting. I was looking for a little bit of action man.

0:16:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So there we go, yeah complete side note, but have you watched the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix by chance? Yeah, that, the second portion, when they go back to all the 80s action movies, it like just brings back such a good feeling of you know, just watching him. And Sylvester Stallone is like the movie Predator and you know Cobra and all those movies. So when you said that it just brought flashbacks of that, it made me feel so good to watch. Those dude brought me back to the childhood Dude that.

0:17:20 – Bobby Holland
That’s it, man. I mean, you know they used to say he view will rot your brain. Well, I mean, if this may be a case where rot in my brain, but hopefully in a good way, where I was a productive member of society, in the military, you know awesome.

0:17:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So Then, when you are getting ready to go to the seals, you said you trained for 18 months or beyond. How did you even know what to train for, how to train? I know these days I think there’s actually like training programs built for you know if you want to be a seal, but I’m assuming back then there probably weren’t no, it was still at the early I say the early stages of the internet.

0:17:57 – Bobby Holland
But, like my awareness of the internet, I guess it started, you know, 80s or early 90s, but People weren’t really using that like they do today until the early 2000s, you know late 90s. So late 90s is when I was starting to train and, no, there wasn’t a whole lot of information out there. So there were a couple books. I picked up a couple books and that was kind of it, you know. So I had an understanding they had published what the requirements were for buds training. So it’s like you know what the run times are, you know what the swim times are, you know what the pull-ups are, you know what the test gates are. To a certain degree, you know that there’s a 50 meter underwater swim, you know that there’s a drown proofing evolution. So it’s like, okay, I will just go do those things in abundance until I feel super, super confident about it. And so when I was saying before, this was my first time, you know, making a goal and achieving it, this was also my first time building a fitness plan, you know, because to this point I had done what was prescribed to me during training. You know football, wrestling, what you know, right, Whatever that is but being able to figure this out.

So I ended up doing, you know, I we were running close to 30 miles a week and we built up to it. So we started doing three miles at a time, three became four and then we were doing six miles a day, doing a lot of overtraining too as well, but I was also doing a lot of calisthenics, so a lot of push-ups, a lot of pull-ups, a lot of body weight stuff and then a lot of water stuff. You know we were doing just swimming, just god-awful swimming. One of the strokes that that they mandate for seal training is called the side stroke or the combat side stroke, and it’s, it’s super boring. Had to learn that and I would swim for two miles in a you know 50 meter pool, which, oh, it’s awful.

0:19:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What’s, what is that, sir like? Can you describe that stroke to us?

0:19:59 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, it’s uh. I mean, you know, basically you’re on your side and so what you’re doing is you’re Basically gliding through the water. It’s it’s meant for to be able to swim someone out, Like a bloody, like if there’s a.

You’re trying to swim out of a combat situation. You can, you can tow your buddy and basically swim one-handed, but essentially you’re you’re kind of swimming on your side and you’re just reaching, gliding through and basically trying to do it. You know, in a way, that your, your head is just barely Coming up, your mouth is just basically barely surfacing above the water, because the more that your head’s upright, the more drag that you’re creating. So you know you’re trying to glide through there. It’s a very effective stroke. I mean, I I Don’t swim that often but I could go, do you know I I could go crank out a long swim right now, just because that is a pretty efficient stroke that you can just do for a long time. But yeah, I had to teach myself that.

And then, you know, had to get into all the other stuff the breath holding stuff, the, the underwater swims, the not tying, all those things and really there wasn’t a whole. I mean, if there was YouTube this would have been so much easier, because it’s like now on YouTube there’s all this stuff about breath holding techniques. You know how to get that heart rate down. You could just watch free divers, watch what they do. Yeah, this guy’s got it made. They got all the information. But yeah, you know was one of those things that I Didn’t do it perfect, but I did a lot of what I did and I was in damn good shape and I was very, very much prepared for for buzz training. So mission accomplished there.

0:21:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So let me ask you this obviously, with YouTube, we can watch and learn anything on YouTube. Now, right, and there’s so much more information. Guys and girls can go and learn a lot more about what, what the techniques are. But then and I heard this on when you’re on Jaco’s podcast and talking about like, you can have all the information, you can have all the techniques. But going into buds is different. Like being able to get through buds, I guess it requires way more than just knowing techniques and stuff. So what would you say is the differentiator between the guys that make it through and the guys that don’t make it through?

0:22:28 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s not fitness level, I mean, it’s all. It’s all in between the years and it is. It’s a Grid and resilience. That’s what it is, you don’t know. There’s tall, skinny guys, there’s short, fat guys, there’s everything in between. There’s these stilly-eyed beast You’re like that that dudes for sure gonna make it through and equates day one one. So like you can’t tell just by looking at someone and really and you can’t tell by talking to someone, because I’ve also been on the instructor side you have to put them through this crucible and you know you have guys who had some troubled childhoods and then you have guys who are elite athletes and everything in between. But I think all bring a certain amount of grit and resilience that Is baked into them. Either they were born with it or they developed it, you know, prior to coming to the teams. But yeah, that’s it, man. I mean, if you can imagine Having the worst day of your life, every single day, I mean that that is what, that is what gets people, because that’s what buds is.

You were having the worst day your life and it’s even worse than the day was yesterday, and At the end of the day you get to go back to your, your barracks. You get to eat, you know dinner, and hang out for a little bit at least early on training, before you’re doing other tactical type stuff, and Then you just sit there in your bed thinking like I’m gonna have the worst day of my life tomorrow, you know, oh, my god, yeah, and that lasts for six, seven months of that. So I mean it’s kind of that mental torture of and you know, please don’t don’t focus on the word torture there. Buzz training is not tortured, but there is that mental component which is torturous, I should say of like man, how am I gonna get through this program? And the old adage how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time? And that’s it, these things.

And one thing I hope that I get to do more of is talk about mindset. I think that’s one thing that we can contribute. We’re not the only ones who share this mindset, but that’s it, man. I mean it’s been able to have this relentless optimism that I’m going to get through whatever comes next. I just know I am, I know it’s going to suck, I know it’s going to hurt. I’m going to try to find a way to make it fun or do whatever I got to do to get through it.

Some people can’t do that, these people who are over-programmed they’re excellent runners, excellent swimmers, elite athletes coming into the program. They’ve never been pushed that far and they can’t get through that mental component of being able to reconcile like, oh my God, I’m having the worst day of my life and it’s just going to keep going like this. Not only the worst day of your life, but it gets progressively harder in terms of the things that you’re tasked to do. You’re constantly having to do more and more and more. Aside from the mindset part of it, going through seal training and career in the seal teams also taught me how to take on goals and other things In a similar manner of you can’t run a marathon overnight.

It’s not like I can just turn that on and all right, I’m going to run a marathon tomorrow. No, but you know what you can train today. There’s a methodical way to train to develop the strength, the endurance, the confidence and to get yourself there. That’s essentially what seal training is is. I mean, we start people would laugh man like for where we end up and we’re talking like tactical training, where we’re busting into rooms and firing off rounds within close proximity inches of each other, highly, extremely dangerous and making life and death decisions. All in a split second. We get there from training I mean this really progressive training pipeline to where you take off these little bites of the elephant and then one day you end up there and you look back and it’s like man, how did I get here?

0:27:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s unbelievable. I mean just hearing some of the stories that you guys talked about on the podcast that I listened to and, obviously, just watching different theatrical portrayments of what you guys do, and just to think about the training that you go through. Now, refresh my memory, were you in the documentary that they did? Did I hear you guys talking about that? So for those of you that haven’t seen anything about Bud’s training, there are videos and documentaries that you can go watch, and I heard that you were even kind of like a mis-portrait in one of the scenes. Is that right?

0:27:50 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I definitely was and I make sure that every opportunity I can to clear my good name because I was very proud of in second phase. Second phase is the water competency phase and I believe it was two months back then. But there’s a series of grueling underwater challenges that you basically do where you’re threatening yourself to drown underwater. I mean, that’s basically just it. You’re doing things that are beyond your ability to without error. How long can you survive underwater, given this challenge here? So I was very proud that all those I think there were seven different tests that we did I passed all those the first time. So I was the first time. Every time guy. But yeah, you know it is what it is. They got someone else failing in evolution, but it’s all. Just man, I really don’t care. I think it’s funny, but I do give that guy shit every time I see him. That’s awesome.

0:28:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
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So be sure to go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18 strong to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So again, go over to 1stphorm.com forward slash 18 strong. So let’s talk about the name Hoolie and your role, and I mean I only know a little bit. So, from what I understand, you were a breacher, and that’s kind of where the name Hoolie came from, right.

0:30:13 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, that’s it. So you know, I’m getting ready to start business school and I had this epiphany. It actually started out as a golf bag, so it was this idea for a golf bag. Within that, basically, I had the idea. I spent a whole weekend ideating and drawing on it but within that like five hour period I had come up with the name already a variation of the name, but I like the way that Hoolie sounded and, yes, like to backup, Hoolie is. It’s a tool that we use.

I was a breacher. It was my job to basically gain access into enemy compounds. So using explosives, torches, mechanical tools, manual tools, Hoolie tools, basically this giant pry bar thing. Firemen use a halogen tool, Hoolie tools kind of a bastardized version of that, but it’s just normally looking crowbar thing and you know backing up before we even get to. You know the symbolism of that. It was just the name. I was like man, it just sounds kind of cool.

I wanted something that connected my prior background and then something that you know connected to golf and I didn’t imagine that there would be any connection there, but I liked how it sounded. You know, and in terms of the symbolism, it’s this tool that we’re using to break open doors, to break through something being disruptive. You know I like that. And then I ended up researching the word and, lo and behold, Hoolie is an obscure Scottish golf term that means blown a strong wind. So and I got to go to Scotland last spring and I was really nervous because you read things on the internet but I was able to confirm. I was like like hey, what does Hoolie mean to you? And sure enough, man, that’s, that’s a phrase that they use in the old country and that’s the symbolism. Is just it married? I thought it was perfect and that’s how Hoolie was born.

0:32:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So earlier you mentioned you know we were talking about getting through buds and you mentioned that getting through buds it’s grit, resilience, and that’s something that I wrote down from your website specifically is like the Hoolie golfer. It’s something that believes that hard work, grit and resilience will conquer all. So give us a little bit more about you know. Who is the Hoolie golfer? What, what is that ethos, what’s that mantra and who? Who is it?

0:32:49 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, so we are a golf brand for hardcore golfers, ok, you know, maybe folks that don’t fit into the cookie cutter mold of what you know a traditional golfer is, you know, although golf has changed a lot last couple of years so you have a lot of other different types of personalities out there. But, you know, I mean really Hoolie is for minibaction, growth minded folks who are competitive about life, who like to get after it off the course as much as they do on the course, you know. So, basically, guys, you know, I don’t, I don’t see like myself in that, like, ok, how many Navy SEAL golfers are there? But there’s a lot of guys like me out there, you know, whether they’re gym rats, athletes, former athletes, hunters, fighters, surfers, these guys who are passionate about, you know, conquering life and they’re equally passionate about conquering golf. So it’s people who are essentially in the hunt, trying to find the best versions of themselves, trying to try to find that on the golf course and trying to find that off the golf course.

And you know, one of the things that I love about golf, which is it’s sneaky, like you know, backing up to our earlier conversation, I didn’t get golf, you know, 20, 30 years ago. But when I got it it’s like, oh man, there’s so many parallels to all the things that I was doing, you know, as a SEAL in terms of being able to master your mind, your body, the environment, your strategy involved. Let’s talk about the golf swing. You know the intricacies there of the golf swing. You know kinematic sequence and all these fun things. But, yeah, man, that’s, you know, that’s really the spirit of the brand, and I also want to caution anytime I’m talking about who these now is. We have truly customers who are, you know, every walk of life. So I think it’s more of a shared mindset than it is a particular background. Yeah, people who have a certain spirit and, you know, just like to get after it, I guess.

0:35:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s what really drew me to you guys is, first, just the idea and the mindset of you know this is about more than just lowering your handicap or you know, like, how far you can hit a ball although watching some of your videos looks like you can hit a ball quite far Never know. But you know it’s about the mentality of going out, having a great time with your buddies, telling to your best you want to be the best at whatever you do physically, mentally. I’m curious just from the mental side of things, because golf is such a mental game and we kind of can make ourselves crazy about it. But obviously you guys are known for your performance under pressure. What are there any techniques that you could relay to us that you go through when you’re out on the course and maybe something’s a little frustrating you hit a bad shot and you’re trying to get yourself focused and back in the game.

0:36:03 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I think box breathing is huge. So being able to, you know, reduce your sympathetic response, and that literally just means getting your heart rate down. You know one thing I love all these fitness tracker tools and so you know I have a fitness watch and that’s a great indicator I could look down and I know what my resting heart rate is, I know what my, like, active heart rate is and you know, being able to breathe, being able to get that heart rate down and control that kind of at will is extremely helpful. Because, look man, this may surprise people, but I get nervous on the golf course, like when I’m on the first tee. You bet your ass I’m nervous. I got the little barflies. I don’t want to. You know, I’m just as likely to shank a ball as anyone, you know, as the next guy out there. It happens. So being able to do that, that’s key. I mean, breathing is really, really important there.

The other thing, from a mindset perspective, is just trying to approach it like like I don’t care what happens, I don’t care about the outcome, and that was something that I used, I mean, in, you know, being a seal all the time, right, so like we do things to where obviously, the more you do like like jumping out of an airplane, the more, the more you do that, the more you get comfortable with that.

But yeah, especially when you’re new to that, the thought of jumping out of an airplane can be quite a nerve in, right. Yeah, but finding these little kind of mental tools that you can dig into for, you know, a variety of things whether you’re on the golf course or off the golf course, are useful. That’s. That’s kind of one of the things that you know. Just trying to take the, you know, the result. Try to take don’t worry about the result because you can’t control the result. Control your controlables and whatever is going to happen is going to happen out there, right, and you know, I think having a positive mindset and not focusing about the negative outcomes would help out a lot of people and any major swing issues that folks have, such as myself.

0:38:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What about the physical side? Obviously you’re still very fit and that’s a big part of your life, I’m assuming. I would also imagine you’ve got some, some issues being banged up and injuries that you’ve, you know, gotten over the years, whether that be in football or combat or whatever it is. How big of a role does that still play in your everyday life and and for your golf?

0:38:48 – Bobby Holland
It’s huge, yeah, and I, you know, I’m starting to evolve how I train and a lot of that is a product of a. I think I’d mentioned to you I went through a program this last month to address some of those injuries and things that I’ve accumulated over two decades of not only being a seal which is a pretty damn hard job, especially carrying heavy loads, jumping out planes, injured landings, you know, running, gunning, falling down, whatever, but being an athlete for that long Fitness has been. I fell in love with fitness, you know, back in when I started sports and it just never stopped. So, absent my love for golf, I would still be doing that and it has proven to me time and time again to be extremely, you know, beneficial to you know, I mean just your mental state of mind and avoiding illness, injury, et cetera, but so extremely important.

I am having to evolve how I do things. But yeah, man, you know, in terms of how, how I think it benefits golf, I’m really excited about the program I’m starting right now, to be honest with you, because the last couple of years I’ve been training in a very linear way fitness, like basically doing straight up power lifting moves, squat, you know, pressing pulls basic stuff squat bench you know, very linear and I have been throwing in a little bit of golf things here or there, but you know, nonetheless, I think having having a natural ability to summon power right through power lifting, I think it’s helpful in all things and of course it is helpful in the golf swing if you know how to harness it. But you can look at some of the golfers out there who are skinny little beans, who do it a much different way.

So you know it’s more important to have the right technique and and to have the right mobility and flexibility, and that that’s an area where I’m just starting with this new program. So, to back up, I’ve dealt with a whole host of injuries and I won’t spend much time talking about them because I could go on and on. But you know my shoulders are jacked. You know my knees I’ve had multiple knee surgeries. My back looks like an S, like my spine, you know. So, despite all this stuff, fitness has allowed me to be extremely active and to keep pain at bay. Right, and I really attribute that because I’ve had periods like man, circa 2022, I couldn’t lift anything overhead. I could not lift a bar overhead. I could not bench press, which has been like my favorite exercise since, since youth, but I was able to build up all last year. I was. I really wanted to just fight through it. I was doing physical therapy, but I was determined to build strength. I ended up putting on some weight, so I’m a little bit heavier. When you say I’m, I’m a fit guy Thank you for the compliment. I’m relatively fit. I got some work to do. I got some goals. I’m on a good track now to get better, but mission accomplished last year. My strength like went like really you know really well, and I got through you know that issue I was having there. I went from like 20% to like 90% with shoulders, same with with me. So I’m in a good spot.

But what I’m really excited to be doing now, and where my fitness is evolving, is I’m doing a lot of rotational stuff, mobility stuff and trying to get more function, range, emotion out of my hips, out of my shoulders. So I’m really excited. My golf swing I golfed this morning. It’s kind of a mess because a lot of this work I did through this. The Warrior Fitness program is a month long program that I just went through. It’s a ran by the or sponsored by the Navy Seal Foundation, run by a group called Virginia High Performance. It’s an outstanding program for spec war veterans but basically it’s a holistic approach to diet, nutrition, mental health. It’s like full optimization there, went through that, was able to regain some mobility and function through that program and I’m going to keep working on that. I’m really excited Now, now that I’m able to rotate more and do some other things. I’ve got to figure out how how my new swing is going to work, you know.

0:43:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s interesting. So you actually have seen so much improvement in some of your mobility that you’re noticing that, hey, my golf swing is almost a little loosey-goosey now.

0:43:54 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a little bit. I have some things I’m trying to work out on my swing, but I’ve got some improvement with my hips and my kind of pelvic rotation. There and my right shoulder we made a lot of ground. It was, you know, again like I’ve been moving very linear, but you put, you know, certain parts of my body in awkward positions and I lack mobility. So I think some of the swing faults that I have right now are really really because of some of these deficiencies that I have. I’m unable to rotate in such a way that I have to compensate with my arms or whatever.

So, tbd, man, we’ll see how it goes. Hopefully it’s not a train wreck for too long. But you know, I look forward to starting that out. But, man, I just feel better. You know, you kind of don’t know, especially as you age, sometimes the decline or the lack of mobility, it just kind of slowly tapers off. And it wasn’t until, you know, we’ve been doing a lot of back and core work, manual therapy, cairo type stuff, and then mobility exercises, and it wasn’t until I did about two weeks of that that I’m moving around. What the? It feels good. You know, it’s not like I was walking around like the hunchback and Notre Dame. You know I didn’t feel that bad, but I didn’t know what good felt like either.

0:45:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. So you and I talked a couple of days ago and we were talking about the Rotex motion stuff. Were you introduced to them through Virginia High Performance or was that? Did you meet Dr Joe separate?

0:45:34 – Bobby Holland
I met Dr Joe separate, yeah. Yeah, one of the cool things I’ve been surprised by social media and one of the pleasant surprises has been I’ve been connected with some really, really neat people and people that just reached out, that found the brand and you know much like you did. And Joe was the same. You know he’s. He’s a old retired frogman so and we actually served in the same SEAL team not the same time, different times, but great guy, he reached out and fully support what he’s doing. He’s doing some really neat stuff there. I just started the Rotex program, really excited for that, to augment the program that I’m already working on. But, yeah, go check them out at, you know, rotexmotioncom Great products there.

0:46:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, so, and we love, we love Dr Joe and the Rotex. I’ve got one sitting right outside the door here was just using it with the client this morning. So just give us a little idea. How are you using it? What, what are you guys working on, or what did he kind of go through with you a little bit?

0:46:30 – Bobby Holland
You know, I’m just using their app, so you go through their app and they have. So what I’m working on? The there’s a shoulder mobility set of exercises there, and then also I don’t remember what the other one is called, but you know, basically the rotational stuff, the kind of hips, pelvic type stuff, so that that is the kind of floor, floor based stuff or the floor models and the. Yeah, there’s just some great exercise man, like I love the handheld one. There’s some really cool stretches being able to, you know, internal rotation, I guess it is.

0:47:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, yeah, getting getting an external rotation where you kind of like kind of going in up on the wall like that.

0:47:19 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, there’s some there’s some really good ones there. So the program that that I I got out of the Warrior Fitness program has some other stuff in there, you know, non-rotex type stuff, and I think it’s really good compliment. And again, man, I just just started this program but I’m, I’m like, really excited. You know, I have a garage gym which I’ve carefully, you know, built over the last 12, 13 years I guess. So I have everything that I need here.

But I’ve been working out with a new, renewed sense of purpose and energy of you know, doing doing something fun and new, and it just feels good, man, I can feel that I’m activating things that had been neglected for too long. And yeah, you know, it’s like I’m really strong at squats and bench and pressing. But these other things, you know, I think for longevity and just for all around fitness and mobility are pretty damn important and there’s huge crossover. So, aside from, obviously, the benefits I get from my daily life, I’m now doing things that I know are going to have an impact the rotational stuff, the core stuff. Yeah, pretty psyched on it.

0:48:32 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and to be able to do it for that’s the coolest thing about golf to do it for decades. Right Like this. This is a. This is a long gameplay.

0:48:41 – Bobby Holland
Well, there’s no doubt in my mind, like my best golf is is ahead of me, and I’ve there’s plenty of. You know, guys, that I’ve seen staying plenty fit into their fifties. So, and, and you know, look at Phil Mickelsand he’s been able to keep up speed. So you know, if you can keep up strength speed, you can play. You know, I’m not going to play at an elite level, but I can play with enough swing speed to play the type of golf that I enjoy playing, and fitness is the path to get there.

0:49:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. So what’s on the horizon for Hoolie as you’re moving, you know we’re getting into 2024 and moving forward. I mean, it sounds like things are cranking and you’re you’re busy, as can be. So what’s? What’s going on over there?

0:49:23 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, you know we are cranking man, but we are still a first year business. We’re still relatively new, um, you know we’re not a known entity nationally yet. So the goal is to just get the message out and, uh, get more people to fall in love with us. And you know our goal, aside from selling stuff, is to create this community of like-minded you know, golf obsessed, gross minded folks out there. I’d like to get after it and you know we’re looking to get the message out there more. You know doing, doing, uh, shows like yourself, um, continue to push the brand out there, um, get more traction where we can. And to continue to grow and to, you know, expand our, our product lines. Um, that’s it, man. You know just kind of doing what we’re doing, more of it. And again, like just very optimistic because you know we’ve reached a lot of people, um, a lot more than I thought we would in the first year, but we’re just getting started here. So, like so much room to go.

And, um, we have a new spring line that comes out here in a couple of weeks, excited to launch that. We got some really, really neat designs. I’m wearing one of them right now. Um, so really cool there and it’s a. You know, that’s one thing that I’m very passionate about is creating stuff. So, uh, we have a great designer, um, kevin give a quick shout out to to Kevin there who helps us out. Um, but you know, we we also I have a creative interest in in what we do and what we make, and so being able to think of these new things and and watch people fall in love with like it’s just a really neat thing to do, um kind of scratches my creative ish as well. Uh, so we got some fun stuff to launch here and I think people are going to love it and we’ll just see where it goes. Man, yeah.

0:51:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What would you say is something that you’ve taken from your your time as a CEO and just all of your training that has really helped you from the business aspect of things.

0:51:25 – Bobby Holland
I think what we were talking about earlier, that grit and resilience, is key. There’s a lot of parallels to my career as a special operator, to what I’m doing now. If you look at, I’m in a ambiguous environment, you know. Maybe Don’s are stacked against me. Um, you know, over task, under resourced. That’s what every startup, uh, you know, experiencing the same thing. Right, how do we figure out this problem? How do we get better from our mistakes? How do we develop capacity to do more? Um, I mean, they’re all parallels. It’s the same thing, it’s a different environment, it’s a different application.

That’s part of why I fell in love with this whole thing. I I didn’t see myself as being an entrepreneur, but I had this idea and I had this kind of creative itch. I started scratching that and then then I started recognizing like, oh man, this isn’t really that much different, you know. So, for, for the veterans listening out there, you know, I I think you’ll get a lot of entrepreneurship. It’s not easy, it’s very challenging, it’s very rewarding. Um, and then backing up, talking about the grit, resilience aspect of it is not every day is easy. You know it’s. Uh, there’s ups and downs. You know when, if you’re a new business, new business. You are going to make mistakes, things are going to happen. You’re going to have to overcome If. If you can’t get through that, you just won’t survive. So, yeah, it’s all about overcoming those mistakes, getting better, improving and then, you know, just kind of head down, chin up, get after it.

0:53:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You mentioned. You know, speaking to the veterans, I know you guys do a lot of work, or you personally do a lot of work with veterans with golf, and there’s a crossover there that and I’ve seen this with several different organizations that are utilizing golf to help veterans, whether they be wounded vets or just, you know, re-acclimating into society. What have you seen? What kind of positive benefits have you seen from golf that has really helped that population.

0:53:31 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, you know, and this is an area where I would continue to love to do more. I mean, like I’m very passionate about golf and very passionate about the veteran community. I think, you know, one of the things that I hope to do out of all this is to get more veterans into golf. You know, whether they’re, you know, veterans who moved on from service, who are looking for something to engage with, or they’re you know the wounded veteran population, there’s so much to get from the game.

I think one thing that veterans struggle with in general is finding purpose after service right, and purpose comes in many different forms, obviously in the form of a career, having some sort of purpose that you can connect. You know that’s. You serve your country and you do so for however many years you serve, and then you leave that some struggle with. You know what’s next. How do I replace that feeling that I had of service of purpose? And though I don’t have that answer in terms of career-wise, everyone’s different there I think golf serves this little niche here. You know, I’m not saying golf is a purpose, but it’s like a micro-purpose. You know what I mean.

0:54:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Like it’s a reason.

0:54:55 – Bobby Holland
it’s something that gets you excited to get out of bed. It’s something that gets you excited to go outdoors, to go hang out with your buddies, to have this very difficult goal that you want to work towards, that you can improve, and that it’s just it’s going to be there for the rest of your life. I didn’t golf with these two gentlemen this morning, but I often get paired with these older gentlemen that are in their 80s and 90s, you know. So there’s this just love and spear for the game that I think veterans, you know more than others, would really benefit from. And aside from that, I think the therapeutic benefits of just being outdoors I think I golf early in the morning, so that’s a whole different experience.

Like this morning we saw coyotes, you know. We saw deer, it’s beautiful. We saw the sunrise. Like it’s calming. I know saying calming and golf in the same phrase and get people riled up, but I mean for me it’s a. I never really thought about it, you know, over the years I was doing it until now, but it’s kind of like therapy out there, especially if you’re out there, you’re playing, walking on a course, you know, just squeezing it in out there. It’s good man. So, yeah, I would love to connect veterans to golf. Hopefully we can do that in the process and, as we grow the company definitely look forward to partnering with more of the folks that are, you know, doing that as well.

0:56:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. I just think that that’s such a neat objective and you see so many different organizations that are doing it and I’ve seen a couple of things that you guys have done and alluded to and, yeah, it’s just such a such an incredible game. There’s so many benefits. Like you said, it’s out in nature, You’re. You’re kind of fulfilling your competitive spirit, all these different pieces, and you’re constantly challenging yourself, you know, trying to get better. So that’s really cool. All right, my man, we’re going to close up with just a few of our traditional questions that we have here on the 18 strong podcast. Very curious to hear your answers. What’s in foremost? Caddy shack or happy Gilmore?

0:57:15 – Bobby Holland
Hey, both classics, but happy Gilmore. Oh, all right, All right, I was kind of expecting you to go the other way, tristan all right, what’s like, like, like if there was split with you know what percentage of people vote which way.

0:57:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’m going to say it’s been. I don’t have an official tally. I would say it’s been mostly more caddy shack than happy Gilmore. I find that a lot of our guests who come from overseas across the pond are more happy Gilmore than a lot of the Americans and I typically find that if if anybody’s around my age and beyond, they’re usually usually cat caddy shack. So I’m 45. So it can be shot. But happy Gilmore, I love both of them. Love both of them All. Right, this one. I’m very curious to hear your answer. What would your walk up song be to the first T box?

0:58:09 – Bobby Holland
Domination Pantera, not even a question.

0:58:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Oh man, going hard, I like it. I like it. Is there a book that you like to recommend to people, or a book that has really meant something to you, that you’ve read or read multiple times and have even given as a gift?

0:58:23 – Bobby Holland
Absolutely it is. It’s called endurance and I think it’s a I’m not sure if there’s like a a different part shackled in is incredible voyage. I mean the book is endurance. It is my favorite book and I can’t believe they haven’t made a proper movie out of it. I think it’s the best, one of the best survival tales ever told. So those themes we were talking about, about grit, resides. It follows the 1915, shackleton expedition to Antarctica and I went to spoil it for your viewers, but some stuff goes down.

It’s a tale of survival. It’s amazing. I love it. I mean there’s, there’s a you know some stuff about leadership, teamwork, grit, resilience. So good, go read it.

0:59:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, awesome. All right, if you could pick a celebrity for some and by celebrity that’s a loose term, could be anybody past present could be dead alive. Who are you picking for your for some?

0:59:25 – Bobby Holland
All right, man, I’m a child of the eighties, right? So Arnie Sly Corussell.

0:59:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love it. I mean straight action movies, yep, awesome. All right, exclude well, I won’t. I normally say excluding Augustine and St Andrews, but you’re welcome to pick one of those. But I’ll ask you for a second one. But if we had the 18 strong jet fueled up, ready to go and I said, bobby, we’re going anywhere you want, we’re taking your celebrity for some and you get to play any course in the world, where are you going?

1:00:02 – Bobby Holland
Well, you took my number one. It’s Augustine National man. That’s it. Number two would be Piners. Number two Awesome, I’ve been very fortunate. This last spring I got to play the old course, st Andrews.

1:00:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Did you really I?

1:00:17 – Bobby Holland
did yeah and would you shoot? I didn’t shoot very well. I think I shot like a. I think it was an 89. But I had a strong finish at 17 and 18. His darkness set in. Yeah, that’s good.

1:00:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love it. Setting the scene I love it. Okay, what’s the best piece of golf advice you’ve ever been given?

1:00:42 – Bobby Holland
This is a Bob Rattella quote. So damn, I don’t even remember what book it is, but it is love the challenge of the day, whatever it may bring. I think that’s very, very sound advice, that if you’re going to be a golfer, you need to embrace that, because if you’re spinning out of control every bad shot, every bad round, I mean why would you spend so much time being miserable? Right, it doesn’t help.

1:01:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yep Doesn’t help at all. Okay, is there a social media account that you like to follow that you think the 18 strong crew should check out? Could be golf related, could be anything.

1:01:23 – Bobby Holland
Yeah, I’m going to give you some random stuff, all right. So on YouTube, go check out. I know you’re going to like this, jeff Space Ice, and I expect you to text me back later because after five hours of binging that you’ll be like dude, so good. The other is there was a former Navy SEAL, was it John Allen? His handle is Mr Ballin and he does spooky, weird stories on YouTube. Really really good, mr Ballin, b-a-l-l-e-n. Really good. And I’ll give a shout out to my guy, the DoD King Carter. He got bounced off of his CBA golf handle from Meta for some reason. But he is that delusional confident. He got bounced off of that. Really he did. Yeah, Not sure why, but they booted his account, they shut him down. So go check out.

1:02:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
No way that’s delusional, confident Yep.

Unreal. So, just for background, that’s exactly how I found out about Bobby and Hoolie Golf is because when Bobby was on the Jocko podcast you guys talked about, I think, Jocko brought up the DoD King and then I followed him for a little bit and I saw that online. So that’s crazy that that got booted. Okay, well, we’ll definitely put that in the show notes and give him a link there. For sure, bobby, this has been awesome. I can’t thank you enough for coming on the show. I’m really excited to see what’s to come with Hoolie in the next year, two years and beyond, but I love everything that you’re doing. Obviously, thank you so much for your service, first and foremost, you and everybody that you served with. But taking that into the golf world, I just think it’s such a cool crossover and it speaks so much to the 18 Strong crew and the mindset that we have here just about self-improvement and working hard, the grit, the resilience that you speak so, so greatly about. So really really appreciate your time coming on.

Yeah, jeff thanks for having me on, man, thanks for listening to the 18 Strong podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Mike Carrol (Fit For Golf)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 361
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Listen in as we welcome Mike Carroll, the mastermind behind Fit for Golf, to the 18STRONG Podcast. Our conversation takes a thorough look at fitness within the realm of golf, exploring how strength and speed training can lead to significant improvements in your game. Mike brings his unique insights into training golfers and shares valuable dos and don’ts for consulting with professional golfers. He shares how he primarily works with them remotely, showing the flexibility and adaptability of his methods.

As we continue, we explore the significance of physical training in golf, focusing on swing speed and its relationship to the technical aspects of the game. We discuss the importance of understanding the biomechanics of the swing and how to enhance the physical qualities that contribute to it. There’s a focus on prioritizing physical training to improve physical qualities while using practice time for skill development. Listen closely as we caution against getting too wrapped up in specific exercises that may not significantly impact performance.

Our guest Mike, a prominent figure in the world of golf fitness, offers his insights on long-term physical training structure. He recommends three training sessions per week focusing on strength training, cardiovascular exercise, and explosiveness or power work. Listen in for a discussion on golf injuries and recovery, highlighting common injuries and emphasizing the importance of rest. Wrapping up the episode, Mike shares his favorite golf books, social media accounts to follow, and the best piece of golf advice he has received. So, whether you’re a seasoned golfer or a beginner looking to up your game, this episode is packed with valuable insights and actionable advice.

(00:04) Fitness and Golf

Interview with Mike Carroll on simplicity in golf fitness, training professional golfers remotely, and improving game performance.

(11:07) Physical Training’s Importance in Golf

Proper biomechanics and physical training are crucial for swing speed in golf, while skill development should be prioritized during practice.

(20:37) Effective Long-Term Physical Training Structure

The ideal training program for golf includes strength, cardio, power, mobility, and scaling for injuries to improve physical function.

(31:51) Mobility and Speed Training in Golf

Mobility work and warmups improve golf performance, incorporating dynamic movements and swing speed for average golfers.

(36:28) Speed Training for Golfers

Speed training for golfers leads to improved swing speed through physical capabilities and skill practice, with the potential for significant gains.

(49:08) Benefits of Training for Golfers

Resistance and speed training benefits health, fitness, and longevity. Start slow, warm-up, and incorporate into golf routine.

(57:16) Golf Injuries and Recovery Importance

Golfers should gradually increase speed training, prioritize rest and recovery, and avoid overtraining to prevent injuries.

(01:07:05) Golf

Recommended books, dream golf foursomes, bucket list courses, social media accounts, and best golf advice from guest Mike.

The Stack System

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To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:05 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 361 with Mike Carroll of Fit for Golf. What’s up, guys? This is the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe every golfer deserves to play better, longer. In this episode, I’m super excited to finally have Mike Carroll on the show from Fit for Golf. Mike has one of the most popular social media accounts and golf fitness apps out there and is really just some great things for not just the high level golfers but really the golf population in general. And so in today’s episode, we get to really kind of talk about the in and outs of strength training, building speed in your golf game, and really how keeping things simple is really the best way for you to make significant gains without overdoing it. But also, if you’re just starting out, then you’re going to be able to make much more significant gains than you think you are. And then we’re going to talk a little bit about the dos and don’ts of strength training and speed training, and so we’re going to really help you figure out what you need to do to make your game better and make yourself stronger.

Right at the best, our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. Go again 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview. Mike Carroll, welcome to the 18STRONG podcast.

0:02:06 – Mike Carroll
Thanks very much for having me, Jess. I look forward to chatting.

0:02:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, honestly, I can’t believe that it’s taken me this long to bring you on the show. I feel like we should have had this conversation years ago, but I just love everything that you’re doing. I think when people think fitness and golf, you are definitely one of the people that they come to mind, especially in the social media world and in the fitness world. So congrats, first of all, on all your success and everything you’re doing.

0:02:34 – Mike Carroll
Thank you very much. I think the fact you haven’t gotten me on is probably the same that you’ve got far more interested guests to talk to, which is probably a good thing.

0:02:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So where are you now? Obviously, people can tell from your accent that you’re not from the States, but you’re in the States now, right?

0:02:52 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, I’ve been in Southern California for seven years around Huntington Beach, newport Beach, irvine area. I’m from Ireland. I was born there, all my family is there, was there until I finished college and then a couple of years afterwards and I moved out here to work for, like I called Mike Hansen in a juke called Hansen Fitness for Golf. Mike’s been kind of specializing in training golfers for probably maybe 20 years now definitely over 15. And there was a job opportunity in his gym that I saw online and applied came over. So I came over in 2016 and started working for him.

At the same time, I started up the Sid for Golf I had. About three years ago I stopped working for white and white full-time with Sid for Golf, which is 95% the app, and then I traveled to work with a couple of professional players a little bit, but only a few times a year. So kind of an interesting. In the last two years I basically stopped being an in-person trainer, which I had been for the 10 years previous. I’m now much more so like running an online business and, I guess, consulting with some high-level players trying to help them with their physical preparation.

0:04:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you said you’ve traveled to a couple tournaments. Do you have any? Are there any pros in your area that you see on a relatively normal basis, or is it all just consultation stuff?

0:04:37 – Mike Carroll
So there’s not a single PJ Torpler in Linsen, california, to the best of my knowledge, because the state taxes are so high.

I think Phil was the last one and then, when his daughter finished high school, I think even he left. Obviously he’s one of the guys who’s made enough money where he wouldn’t think it would matter, but I honestly don’t think there’s any of them based here. So I currently work with three PJ Torplers and none of them live here. So I tend to see them at tournaments and what’s nice about that is I go to a tournament and I get to see two or three of them in the same week, so it’s a nice way to catch up. And how do I do that? A few times a year and then most of it is just talking to the regularity by phone and text and checking up on things that way.

0:05:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Gotcha. So, yeah, a lot of online stuff. When you first meet with them, do you do an in-person assessment, like do you travel to go see them even before a tournament or anything like that, or is it strictly pretty much at the golf tournaments?

0:05:45 – Mike Carroll
No, we usually get started after a phone call, to be honest, like a nush huge on, like regimented screaming, was our assessments.

To be honest, and because I think we can usually kind of start training and making progress without doing that, based on sort of the information they were made to me in a phone call and we started maybe looking over some of their trading records and some of their stats and things like that.

So, honestly, when a lot of them I could be training them or, I guess, consulting with them remotely for months and like many months before I see them in person, it’s definitely nice to see them in person from time to time. You get to check up on things. It’s definitely good to sort of build a relationship as well. But, to be perfectly honest, I just don’t want to be on the road, kind of traveling like around week to week. So, yeah, that’s just the way my input is going to work. To be honest is I’m going to be mostly remote and then when I do go to maybe I don’t know three or five tournaments a year and maybe see them once or twice outside of that, if we happen to be in the same location for whatever reason, it tends to work quite well.

0:07:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Nice. So you said that you came over to work with Mike, but obviously that’s a huge jump going from Ireland over to California. Were you looking to move, change locations? Or was it simply you came across that opportunity and you’re like yeah, I got to take this.

0:07:25 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, it was mainly I just saw the opportunity and it suited sort of what I was doing or what I was interested in at the time, like I think I was only maybe 24 or so, maybe 25. So I was shortly finished. It was only a short time after college. I was working as a trainer, like working for myself, based in a gym, and just didn’t really have any commitments. So it was just, I was very mobile in terms of I didn’t have any ties keeping me at all, basically apart from family, but ordered matters. It was easy. So, yeah, once I was able to kind of secure work and get a visa taken care of that’s always the biggest stumbling block for anyone outside the US who wants to work in the US and I was happy to come over.

0:08:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Were there any like big surprises when you came over here? Had you been over to the States before? Were there any different big cultural shifts when you got over here?

0:08:27 – Mike Carroll
I’d been to the States for two summers before that, both on the East Coast, and I did the summer caddy in New Jersey and I also did an internship with Eric Cressy in Cressy Sport Performance. But that’s a little bit different when you know you’re only coming, for they were both three periods. That’s a little bit different to kind of moving over and trying to work and get properly set up here. I wouldn’t say there was any huge cultural shifts because I had spent some time here, you know anyway, and life in Ireland and the US isn’t that different, to be honest, like the cultures and things are reasonably similar and obviously there’s no language barrier. Well, the accent is nearly a language barrier.

But no, there’s nothing too major, to be perfectly honest.

0:09:22 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I would imagine that most people that are listening have heard of you or heard of Fit for Golf. What would you say is kind of the how would you describe your mentality when it comes to fitness and golf? I think that there’s a lot of different ways that people look at what fitness should look like when it comes to golf, and I know that you have some very strong opinions on just the way that you like to train, the way that you run the app, the way that you get you maximize your golfers potential.

0:09:55 – Mike Carroll
Yeah. So I think if you’re trying to work with people in physical preparation for any sport, you need to be able to determine what are the limiting factors in that sport from a physical perspective. If we look at golf, what are the demands of golf when there’s two main things that are happening in the sport from a physical perspective? Number one is we’re making golf swings and number two is we’re walking. There’s some standing around as well, but it’s mainly walking and swinging and walking. The ability to walk a golf course and sustain that is very rarely a limiting factor unless there’s a serious injury or a major medical problem. Those things are generally not particularly hard to get to a level where there’s going to be no further benefits and performance. Like there’s tons of regular everyday club players that are at a level that would be more than sufficient to be PGA tour standard in terms of walking the golf course because they’re fit of people.

But then if we think of the physical qualities that are involved in swinging a golf club at a level that the best players do, then we start to see that there’s a huge golf when people tend to lack the mobility, the strength and power that higher levels of players do and club at speed has the biggest relationship between differences and playing levels. When you look at, a big population of golfers across a wide range of scores saw that as due to technical mastery for sure just differences in literally quality of swing. It’s a technique broader than a physical thing. But even at the highest level of the golf we see that that’s one of the big differentiating factors. And that’s the thing to where a wide, big interest is essentially understanding the biomechanics of the swing.

What goes into a now in golfers swing faster from a mechanics standpoint, and then how could we enhance the physical qualities that underpin that? And I guess that’s it in terms of working with real high level players. But probably what I’m just as interested in is essentially trying to help people get to a very high level of fitness and physical function and then be able to maintain it for as long as possible. And what’s sort of really nice for all of us that are interested in both golf and that is that there’s huge crossover in that the things that you need to do to be in a position to swing very fast also have great transfer to just stay fit and strong and healthy and everyday life. I am thinking that for decades really.

0:12:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s what really resonates with me when going through your stuff and watching the way that you present information online, is that while it is totally geared towards the golfer and really a lot of it is geared towards increasing their strength, increasing their swing speed you do a great job of crossing it over into the lifelong aspects of it too, because golf is a unique sport that, unlike any others, we can play when we’re five years old and we want to continue to play until we can’t swing a club anymore, and so to really work on the longevity piece I think is so important. But you mentioned really kind of diving into the mechanics of what does it take to build swing speed? What are the pieces of the body, the movement pieces, and there is always the technique side, there’s the strengthening side and, from my perspective, where it can get kind of muddied is how do we utilize the? Are people using too much or trying to use the exercises too much to work on the technique stuff as opposed to just working on their body and the athleticism?

0:14:06 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, that’s something that I kind of think about and talk about a lot. Really, how I usually describe it is that I think there’s a gray area where a lot of people get stuck in and in that they try to improve their swing technique and their physical characteristics like strength and power at the same time, and what often happens not always is that they end up choosing exercises that are not specific enough to the golf swing to improve their mechanics and they’re also not stressful enough to cause any type of physiological adaptation that’s going to improve the physical quality. I know they’re way better than not doing anything, like not exercising at all, but if we’re trying to get the most out of, like our hardly limited, let’s say, training time, I think we always kind of need to ask the question like what adaptation is this leading to? Is this enhancing the function of my nervous system? Like how well I can recruit muscle fibers and get them to contract? Is it a strong enough stimulus where it’s going to increase the size of my muscle fibers? Is there enough mechanical tension? And in a lot of those exercises there’s not, and the argument that could be made sort of to refute that is well, I’m doing something that he’s going to enhance my swing technique, but oftentimes I think it’s nowhere near as effective as actually practicing your golf swing with a golf club or with drills that are way, way more specific to that. So in January, I think most people are much better off trying to use their physical training time to enhance their physical qualities, use their practice time to work on their skill and allow those two things merge together, especially when it comes, I would say, to strength exercises.

If we tried to get too cute with, like, simulating movement patterns, which is where a lot of people kind of would go down the specificity of route, we started running into problems very quickly in terms of not being able to load them heavy enough or have many options for progressing the long term where we can actually make progress in the long run and like, if you think of something like, say, like a cable pulley rotation or a medicine ball throw or something like that, sure they could be used to strengthen muscles that are used in the golf swing in a reasonably similar fashion, but in terms of like the coordination and speed, they’re still a million miles away from the actual golf swing.

So they’re not specific exercises really. They’re slightly more specific than something like a bench press or a deadlift, but I still wouldn’t consider them very specific. They’re definitely not like technical drills that are going to have a direct impact on your golf swing. And then the other thing is like they just get challenging to load in the long term in a way that you can make a lot of progress and compare it to things that are more general in nature, are much more similar to being loaded and building strength and power of the long term. I still incorporate them a little bit because I think they’re value, but it just needs to be, in my opinion, a very clear rationale for why you’re doing a certain exercise and there needs to be a good understanding of, like what is the goal of the training and because otherwise we can just kind of fall into the trap of doing things that, no matter how much we improved at the exercise we’re doing, it just doesn’t have much potential to move the needle at terms of our performance.

0:18:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I would totally agree that you know, not asking that simple question of what’s the goal here, and I love even further going into what’s the adaptation that I’m really trying to work on and so many of our golfers I know personally in our community and I’m sure those in the fit for golf community and I would assume a lot of there’s a lot of crossover there are.

We’re all stressed for time. We’re all looking to make things as efficient as possible, and that’s a message that I keep hearing from from you is you know, how do we really make the most sense of what we’re doing with the time that we have? You know, we got to practice, we got to, we got to train, we got to eat, we got to do all of these different things that are going to move us, move the needle, move us forward. But how do we, how do we help people not waste time on, you know, things that don’t really matter quite as much? So if you could, what’s a bit of a structure that you would tell people like, hey, these are the things that you really should be working on, thinking about as you’re getting ready to jump into your golf fitness training program.

0:19:12 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, so, generally, if I’m advising somebody with their overall let’s say, physical training, and if we take an average, you know, let’s say working person that’s maybe 60 or 60 years old or whatever, or it doesn’t really matter what age any any adult, I would say and our older adult, I’m a big fan of trying to get people to have a slot for exercise pretty much every day. The reason for that is, I think, that if people can do that, they’re much more likely to build a habit and stick to it. It doesn’t mean that every day is going to be a long training session or a very hard training session. What like is, if you think of it in terms of long term health and physical function. There’s really two elements of training that that people have to be on top of. Number one is cardiovascular fitness, what both people refer to as cardio or aerobic training. Like there’s kind of no way of arguing with the amount of research that shows how important VO2 maxes for longevity, which is basically how aerobically fit you are, and there’s also no arguing with the importance of muscle strength. So there are the two things that I get people to focus on mainly and how.

I think a really nice way to structure it is is simply have three training sessions a week for each element and that might look like something like on a Monday, wednesday, friday, somebody is going to do their strength training work. It’s going to be three total body strength training sessions where they do a little bit of lower body, a little bit of trunk and a little bit of upper body. In each session, or each one of those sessions, they’ll go through dynamic warm up so that they’re getting to work out the mobility and flexibility stuff that everybody kind of wants to work on and says they need more of. Then, on the days in between, they’re going to do some cardiovascular exercise and that might be depending on what the person enjoys. They might be on a bike, they might be jogging, they might be inclined walking on a treadmill, they could be on a roller and elliptical, they might be like pick up basketball or hockey anything that gets your heart rate elevated for a sustained period of time. It’s honestly pretty much that simple for long term physical function in an ideal world.

I’d also like people to incorporate some sort of what would generally be called like explosiveness or power work or race of force development work. That’s touched on pretty well by intense strength training. Well, most people don’t know is that as we get older, obviously we have a decline in physical function kind of across the board. We’ll show a like force production standpoint we lose speed and power faster than we lose strength and we lose strength faster, lose muscle mass. So we should have make our training set up in a way to help be proactive against that.

And so what it tends to look like in a training session on the one day Wednesday, friday is dynamic warm up to get warmed up and work on your mobility. A little bit of lightweight, high speed power work, which might be things like explosives kind of swings, things like box jumps, lateral jumps. You can even do like short sprints or very short sprints on a bike. For the upper body it might be some medicine ball trolls or some band work that’s very, very fast in nature. There’ll be something like hitting a punch bag as hard as you can for 10 seconds and then moving into some strength work which would be kind of in general, because it’s just very efficient is bigger cup out lifts and like swatting, hinging for the lower body, pushing and pulling for the upper body and trying to get progressively stronger in those movements and then on the dick. That’s that covers really nicely mobility, explosiveness or power and strength, and those things also cover your muscle mass.

And then on the days in between, do something for your cardiovascular fitness. It makes sense to vary up those things where you have maybe one one day that’s a longer, slower day where you’re trying to get the duration up. You have another day where you’re getting the intensity up and more of make an interval type fashion, and then on the other day you could do a little bit of a mixture or something like that, and that’s that’s honestly pretty much what people need to focus on from a from a physical training standpoint. Obviously it has to be scaled to their current level. You need to take into account injury concerns. They might have to choose the bold of the exercise or exactly which exercises they’re doing.

And then if somebody is also really interested in getting better at golf, they need to have some time for practice and play. They need to squeeze in some time where they do like specific swing speed training, where they’re swinging as fast as they can, ideally with a radar for speed feedback, and pretty quickly the time requirement there can start to add up. So just completely depends on how much time someone’s able to commit. What cool is that? Like, even with that, say, three day of each template, even if you only had 10 minutes each of those days, the improvements that you would make compared to not doing it is absolutely enormous and so, yeah, that’s that’s kind of the way that I’ve been sort of structuring training for a long time.

I think it works quite nicely for most people and gets them a nice balance across the various different elements and there’s no variety in there that it keeps people interested.

0:25:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love how you break it down so simply and in my personal experience, talking with so many of the different coaches that we’ve had on the show, it’s when somebody like yourself breaks it down into very simple ways of doing it, that that’s when you know we can get really caught up in the flashy exercises and doing all of the different pieces. But really it boils down to getting simplified and doing the things right. Doing the strength training, doing the warm ups, doing all of that when do you because I always find this a little troublesome sometimes with clients and working in some of the corrective exercise stuff Like, if you do have people that you’re working on some other more accessory kind of things, some isolation movements where would you throw that in in kind of that template that you just laid out for us?

0:26:32 – Mike Carroll
And honestly, I think that I think that say, like, if we’re talking about somebody who’s who’s has an injury that they need to rehab, I train you. Rehab as much as possible the same as training, because all that you’re really doing is scaling an exercise or an activity to whatever the person is currently able to tolerate and then gradually increasing the intensity to bring them towards whatever goals that they’re trying to get to. So like, for example, if someone has a shoulder issue, their upper body pulling and pushing exercises are probably going to need to be scammed back to something that’s, you know, pretty, pretty nice, maybe a slower tempo, with lighter ways and higher reps while they’re recovering from that injury and gradually build up to where they want to get to. And another element that I think is really important there for people who do have some sort of specific issue that they’re kind of rehabbing or that is having an impact on their training is don’t let an issue in one specific body part or one specific movement derail the rest of your training. Like, for example, if you have a shoulder or knee issue, train everything around that as best as you can. Why are you bringing that level? Why do you really need that area back up to par and like I would even go so as far as, like if someone like it’s really common for senior golfers to maybe get like a rotator cuff surgery or something like that Like they I you’d often might get an email from there or something saying you know, oh, I need a, you know, six week break or whatever While I get this surgery, and I’d be kind of trying to encourage them.

Like six weeks of not exercising for someone in that day range like is is not good in terms of what they’re going to lose and how hard it is to build that back up.

And that’s where things like machines in the gym are so, so useful because it allows you to knowledge of muscles without having to pick up any weights. So, like you could do calf raises and leg presses, you could even do upper body pushing and pulling on the uninjured side. You could be on, you know, things like bikes and rollers that you could use, you know, without using that injured body part. So I try to not, I guess, like worry too much about getting ultra specific with corrective exercises and more so. Just scale the training plan in whatever way a person needs and gradually build it up over time, like I think the person who coined the term is Charlie Weingroth, a pretty well known like physio and strength coach, and I think the phrase he uses is that rehab is training, training is rehab. There’s no difference between them. You’re just scaling them to the, to the level that the person can currently color it.

0:29:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You know, anytime you have somebody even just working on things like posture and, and you know, getting a little bit more of the the upper back and, like you said, the rotator cuff, some of those different pieces, the hips just putting a little more focus on it, and I guess you talked about even in, like the dynamic warmups. You’re doing some of the things that maybe, like the smaller exercises as you would think of, I think it’s very easy to get caught up in like I just want to go, get to the gym, I want to do, you know, for for some people I want to go do my bench press or my squats or my, and get into the bigger things, but talk about how important it is to do that beginning piece and to get your body primed and ready to go for the bigger, stronger exercises.

0:30:19 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, that’s a good way to put it Like if you have a well designed training program that’s covering what you consider to be, I would say, like important muscles or literally just human movement, that human function in general, and then you’re you’re making sure that all of those are covered across a training week. If you could also follow a training program like that for any reasonable period of time, that’s going to be very corrective for any issues that they have like because getting stronger, getting more mobile and getting into better physical condition is going to be, like, comprehensively corrected. There’s not going to be things that aren’t getting touched on. And yeah, I think like one of the big things about a dynamic warmup is like we have to warm up before we train anyway to reduce the risk of injury and to improve the performance in the training session. So why not do it in a way that also improves our, our long term mobility? And if you can have some stuff that works on mobility of areas that need to be mobile and commonly get stiff things like the hips, spine, shoulders, neck and a little bit of mobility work on those before each workout and just adds up really nicely over time as your mobility work, and then you don’t need to.

You know, devote a lot of training sessions to mobility work. And I haven’t. I haven’t done a mobility session in 15 years. I’ve been granted it in my 30s. Some people will say, wait till you know your ex age or whatever. But on the flip side, I do a dynamic warmup pretty much every day where I’m going through full ranges of motion for my spine, hips, shoulders, neck, because I’m doing that before and practicing, or playing, or before and working out, so like there’s been improvements in mobility there, without actually ever doing specific flexibility sessions. And then the other thing is that if your strength training program is well designed and you have exercises where you’re going through a full range of motion, that’s also highly effective for improving mobility.

0:32:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I even saw I think it was a post that you made either on Twitter or Instagram and this might have been talking about even before a round of golf. But you said, instead of thinking of it as a warmup, think of it as a little as a mini workout. And I love, I love that, right, because you see these golf, the tour players, and when you see them in the tour trailer, they’re not doing just like a stretching routine, they’re actually kind of getting after a little bit.

0:33:10 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, so what it actually said was think of a warmup less as stretching out.

0:33:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah.

0:33:17 – Mike Carroll
And more like a mini workout.

That’s right Because, like, the simplest way to look at a warmup is its preparation for the activity that’s about to go ahead and, like anyone who’s listening to this podcast is, you know, probably interested in the golf swing and being better at swinging the golf club. It’s clearly a very fast, dynamic activity. Like you go through rapid stretches, rapid contractions. It’s at high speed. Static stretching is not good preparation for that it’s. It’s very, very different to what you’re about to do. So we want to get warmed up by by moving, starting with slow movements, gradually building up to movements that are much faster and closer movement pattern to what we’re about to do with that. And what’s nice about that is those types of warmups compound over time and can actually make improvements in our physical qualities, like mobility and power, like the higher level players that I work with granted, they have more time and they have a fitness trailer at the golf course Like they all have a warmup that takes about 20 minutes Some of them actually like to do.

One of them in particular likes to warm up for a little bit longer and almost, like you just said, turn it into a mini workout.

But they go through their dynamic warmup routine which gets the heart rate up a little bit. It also gets them moving their hips and spine and shoulders through a full range of motion. But then they actually really like to finish the workout with things like vertical jumps, med ball throws, med ball slams, maybe even swinging like the stack or their driver like maximum speed, a few times to get really, really warmed so that when they go down to the range they don’t have to go through, like you know, 15, 20 minutes of trying to warm up and loosen up, hitting wedges and things like that. They’ll seem like that when they go to the range they could take out their driver and be ready to go without, you know, needing to get through that stiffness. And it also has the compounding effect of, if you’re doing that a few times a week before rounds, you’re going to be getting much, much more exposure to mobility and power work, which would benefits lockdown.

0:35:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Talking about swing speed. Obviously you’ve got your your stack system shared on and I know you work with those guys quite a bit and we just had Marty on the show a couple of weeks ago. You said in kind of the layout of your program if somebody is interested in the golf swing and they’re interested in getting better, that that not only practicing their golf is going to be very important, but working on their swing speed is important. And what does that look like for you and the programs that you put together for, let’s say, not the tour level guys, but just you know more of the average golfer. That’s on the fit for golf app and what can people expect if they’ve never experienced any kind of speed training before?

0:36:28 – Mike Carroll
Honestly, like speed training could not be simpler, and the reason why is that there is physical capabilities, like physical characteristics that are very important, like strength and power and mobility, but it’s also there’s also a big skill element to it, and skill requires frequent practice to improve. So speed training is literally as simple as practicing swinging as fast as you can with the goal of going faster. So if you can guess a radar I think the PRG or is like I don’t have any affiliation with them I think it’s by far the best value radar on the market for speed trading. If you could do something like two or three days a week where you get warmed up and for people starting out, I think about 16 swings is a good number. As you get more advanced, you’d probably need to, like anything, build up the amount you’re doing a little bit more and maybe up to 30s or D is probably enough for the vast majority of people over in the course of like a number of months. But I keep it on the low end for as long as you can with still seeing progress. And obviously it’s that simple Like get warmed up, start taking some swings, have the radar for feedback, and having the radar also really boosts motivation and track your results and, like you, will naturally start to wrap up the speed.

There’s things going on in your nervous system in terms of how well you can recruit fast twitch muscle fibers. It’s called motor unit recruitment. You’re able to send signals to the muscles faster it’s called rate coding. There are two things that happen as a result of speed training that are really beneficial. They tend to happen quite quickly. We improve the coordination of how our different muscles work together and there’s just the pure steel element of we figure out more efficient ways to swing the club, based on our bodies. Basically, and for people who have never done speed or strength training before, like for, let’s say, recreational adult golfers, it’s really common for golfers to gain 10 runs an hour club at speed in.

I would say six to 12 months of training for sure.

What’s interesting is that, depending from what I’ve seen, is that people who are untrained and they start speed training they can gain five months an hour in like a few weeks.

The initial gains are really really quick and like the difference from gaining five miles an hour to gaining 10 miles an hour is usually like a big tougher. But it completely depends on what the person is done in the past. Like, for example, if you take the two opposite ends of the spectrum. If you take someone who hasn’t done much physical training and they have poor swing technique, they have huge, huge room for gains. Because if you only got that person to say, do workouts and didn’t work on their swing speed directly with speed training, they could probably gain five or six miles an hour with that, without really trying to work on their swing speed at all. If you got that same person and they didn’t do any workouts and they just did speed training, they probably gained similar or, to be honest, a little bit more. But if you combine both of them, like you have someone who works on speed training which is going to impact their technique. Maybe they work with an instructor that also helps with their swing and they’re doing training that’s going to prove like their strength and power. Like there’s huge, huge rule there that person might gain 12 miles an hour, maybe even more, depending on what their lowest target point is. But then if you consider, like someone on the opposite end of the spectrum, like a tour there, they already have pretty good swing mechanics. They probably already, like are aware of the benefits of being faster and have practiced some speed training and they probably already have done like workouts. They’re rather reasonable. You know level of appropriateness.

So with someone like that, like if you can gain, like honestly, two or three miles an hour in like a season or two, would be hugely impressive. Like if you look at the PGA tour website where they list players, club head speeds, like there’s not many players at all gain a significant amount of speed. Like it’s impressive there’s a player gains, let’s say, two miles an hour from one season to the next, or I would say even more that three or four miles an hour from when they come out on tour to when they’re to when they’re at their fastest. That will be like really, really impressive Players your average 60 or 60 year old or 40 year old club golfers. They might gain that in a week, you know they might gain.

Like, they might honestly they like actually gain that in like 10 swings because they realize, oh, I can actually swing well seven, but I’ve just been swinging 101 all the time because that’s just how I’ve been swinging. I didn’t realize if I actually tried harder there’s way more speed here. Yeah, that’s that’s what I would say. Like the people who have basically been doing less, less coaching, and have technically, let’s say, poor golf swings, have the most to gain. Like 10, 15 miles an hour is not a herd of. But then at the upper levels, like, if, like, if you’re totally engaged, three miles an hour from one season to the next, like that would be I really, unless they’re coming off, let’s say, some sort of injury or something like that, where they were clearly down from their normal, something like three miles an hour is big. I read those guys.

0:42:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and I think that’s pretty refreshing for the that more, maybe more recreational golfer or somebody that hasn’t been working on any of it, to know. Like you know, sometimes it’s a little intimidating to get involved in some of these things and to start these things, but know that you just doing a little bit is going to give you a lot of gain 100% and, honestly, the training doesn’t even need to be hard, because when you’re a beginner to this stuff, or if you haven’t done it, not tight.

0:43:15 – Mike Carroll
The initial gains are really really easy Like they come. You honestly don’t need to work very hard at all to get initial gains and, to be honest, that’s actually what I recommend. I recommend not trying to push too hard early on, because that needs to, people either getting injured or burned out. So, yeah, like it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s nice that way. What’s interesting with training too, like and you see this across like whether it’s all in you know who, let’s say, loves to get the gym and they’re interested in you know getting their barbell it’s up or it’s. You know a runner who’s trying to get their five or 10 K times. Now, Like, there comes a point in training it’s really interesting, Like where that the early gains are very large and easy to call away.

As you train more and get more advanced, they start to slow down. When that happens, what’s interesting is it’s extremely easy to maintain the progress you’ve made. So you’ll be hugely improved from where you started and maintaining that level is pretty easy, Doesn’t require much work compared to the amount of work that’s required to keep improving even a little bit. That can be huge and oftentimes like it gets to a point for people, honestly, where it’s like that’s just not work, like getting that out of this, how much I need to do it’s just not worth it. Because you know this is a hobby and doing it for fun, and it’s a case of it actually gets to a point really like where maintaining basically is progress, because as people are getting older the naturally is to decline. So if you’ve built up a high level from a few years of training, honestly being able to maintain that then for a long time and not decline is a pretty good deal, you know.

0:45:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s exactly what Marty Jertson from Ping in the Stack told us. He said that after the age of 40, typically you’re going to see a decline of like one mile per hour per year and so just maintaining if you maintain that for 10 years that means you’re going to be 10 miles an hour faster than your cohorts.

0:45:35 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, and what’s important to know too for, let’s just say, more seniors, like the older golfers, is that they often ask, like, am I too old to see improvements? And they might be 50 or 60 or 75 or whatever. And I think we’re conditioned because, like, we base almost our assumptions of, say, athletes declining from watching professional sports, and we see, you know the picture, the soccer player or whoever starting to decline. You know, maybe it’s in, depending on the sport and the position, maybe it’s their late 20s, maybe it’s their big 30s or maybe sometimes it’s their late 30s or 30, 40s. So what we need to remember there is, like those are people who have been training to reach their genetic potential for a couple of decades and then they start to see a very small decline.

If you’re 50 or 60 or 70 and you haven’t been training, or you’ve been training kind of lackluster, without a good program and no real direction, when you start training, you know I would say like much more efficient matter, the rate of progress that you can see can be much larger than the rate of the natural biological decline.

So that’s why he’s with people when they’re 70 or 80 or he’s an older, is that people are often thinking like, oh no, that’s an age when you start to, you know, get worse and slow down.

Well, yeah, if you’re not doing anything, for sure there’s going to be a decline. But if you’re training in a pretty good fashion at that age, like you can 100% get stronger, get faster and make improvements at any age. Like one of the like coolest areas of research that I see coming out is like they do strength training studies in nursing homes with people who are in their 80s and 90s and like you see enormous increases in strength in people in their 80s from like six, like even like four or six eight week training programs. Like like 50% improvements and say like quad strength and stuff like this. Like that’s really important, for if you plans of, say, be able to play golf to a reasonably high level as you get older or even just have a high level of physical function, you know let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at 1st Phorm, and this week I want to highlight their Formula One post workout protein shake.

0:48:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis, and so I know that with the post workout shake the Formula One first of all, it’s fast acting. So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym. But also, if you don’t know if you’re going to be able to get your protein in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks. So make sure to go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG to get your 1st Phorm Formula One protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is going to be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So, again, go over to 1stPhorm.com forward slash 18STRONG. It’s funny.

So we just had the Thanksgiving holiday and I was over at my parents’ house and they’re both 69, getting ready to turn 70.

And I was telling them how I want to order them a hex bar for their house, because what better exercise for them to just be lifting something a little bit heavy, putting low through their joints, putting low through their bones, because so many of the studies talk about not just for any kind of sports related function, but, yeah, just general health, general fitness, longevity, and they were open to it. It was kind of cool and obviously I just order one for my house. I have a 15-year-old son who’s getting into some competitive golf and I’m like you need to start lifting some stuff that’s a little bit heavier and he doesn’t get to the gym that often. And for all of you listening, you can get a hex bar at Walmart for $75. And it’s a thousand pound capacity. It doesn’t cost a whole lot. It’s a very simple exercise. I know you’re a big fan of it Just helping the population understand that just starting to lift some and heavy for you could be 65 pounds, right.

0:50:20 – Mike Carroll
Well, yeah for sure, even like. First of all, I love that. That’s the exact type of thing I like to hear. Even easier than that that I try and encourage people to do is like I love to have everybody set up with bars and plates at home and things like that. It’s a hurdle, though you can have.

The easiest way, I would say, to develop a high level of leg strength at home, if you don’t want to have a lot of equipment, is do split stance and single leg exercises where you can put your body mass onto one leg. Practice like step ups or step downs off of foot stools or something like that. Do some split squats, holding like any type of weight you have available. Your muscles don’t care what they’re being loaded with. They just respond to the tension that’s put on them. You can find ways to load them pretty well without elaborate equipment. That the response to that, compared to not loading them, is huge.

Yeah, like if there was one message that I could send with my social media platforms and what I try to do more than anything, it’s to guess Like I’m trying to target golfers, I guess, because that’s what my demographic is, but it’s basically just to get the average person to understand the benefits and value of resistance training. Slash strength training and golfers have created the double whammy of that. It’s really beneficial for golf and like they get two benefits out of it.

0:52:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, definitely Back to the speed thing real quick. Are there any cautions that you would have for people that are just getting started or really anyone in general, as far as, like how frequent they do it? You know how you mentioned, you know not going crazy with the amount of swings, but any other cautions for somebody getting involved?

0:52:31 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, and it’s not an exclusive to speed training. It’s the same thing for pretty much any activity is that you should ease into it conservatively and no matter what activity you’re doing, if you start something and you do too much too soon, that’s when there’s a high risk of injury Like that can literally happen with walking and with speed training. Obviously it’s a reasonably intense activity, but we also need to remember that people who are going to be starting speed training, they generally do have a decent background of swing, like they are generally conditioned to swinging because they practice golf and they play golf. But I like the idea of if you’re going to say to two or three speed training sessions a week, I like the idea of treating your first, maybe four weeks or so as like an induction into it and not really worrying about trying to like set and break personal records and just get your body conditioned to swinging and then gradually swinging a little bit faster than you’re used to. And if you could do that like the whole gist and exercise like is that you put a little bit more stress on your body than it’s used to and adapts to it and then gets stronger. Where that goes wrong is when we put too much stress on our body and it can’t adapt to it. And then we keep doing that. That’s when an injury usually starts to pick up. So, like slow and steady, and then what you’d probably find is that you feel better and better doing it and, naturally, like you can then start to ramp up the speed.

I would say that, combined with a very thorough warm like like I mean reasonably good physical condition, I can’t imagine going from like sitting at a desk for a day’s work to swinging a golf club as fast as I can. Like that would be bad idea. So you need to have like a pretty good warm up routine and the same one that you do like. I literally do the same warm up routine before every single practice session, speed session, workout and it’s just automatic. And then before you start swinging as fast as you can, spend a couple of minutes.

Take practice swings where you start medium and gradually build up to full speed. Like you could do something like a set of eight medium to like normal and then a set of eight that’s like pretty fast or close to full speed, and then you should be ready for like going as fast as you can after doing your kind of dynamic warm up. The one like thing with speed trading that’s interesting, I would say like, is that the warm up and the speed training session would probably be about equal in like like. I would say like you could get a really good like, say, speed trading session done in like 10 to 58 minutes, but the warm ups probably have to be that long too, and that’s to help not get injured and you’ll also just do way better in the session. Like. You’d be amazed at how much faster you are and how much more benefit you can get when you’re only warmed up for a session as opposed to not really being ready to go.

0:55:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Would you say that three times a week is the limit of what you would have somebody do. Speed session wise.

0:56:05 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, like I don’t, like I don’t know the perfect answer to this, but I would be very skeptical that there is any benefit to going more frequently than that. And even if there’s potential for very, very small gains compared to three by week, I would say that it’s probably not worth this for the rate you’re increasing, picking up an injury and like there won’t be a direct relationship between how much we do and how many gains we get. Like the amount of gains we get will start to level off and then actually get to a point where we can’t recover from it. You might actually get less improvement compared to if you did less. What we need to remember in terms of, say, stress and loading on our soft tissue, like that’s a linear relationship in that the more we do, the more it’s multiplying. And that’s where I’d be worried about picking up like big goals.

Like I’ve noticed in the last maybe say four or five years, that, from what I can see, more common in golfers is injuries in like the elbows and forearms and wrists. So you let me hear a lot more of golfers elbow, tennis elbow and some wrist issues, and I think it’s primarily for two reasons. One is speed training has gotten way more popular. I think we’ve died into it headfirst without really taking, you know, the kind of gradual build up that I was talking about, and oftentimes it’s combined with. People now have way more access to practicing indoors, you know, with, say, cheaper sims and large models and stuff like that, so they have a way bigger volume of practice than they’re used to and their speed training and the volume is just too high, too soon and yeah, so in the soft tissue just can’t keep up. So, yeah, I don’t think that there’s going to be. I don’t think more than three days a week is going to be worth it, to be perfectly honest. And even two days a week people make a lot of progress with. I think we’re one. So beginners will be fine, you’d probably see some progress.

But what would happen is like you say, do a session, it would take maybe a day or two to recover, but then you’re going to have like two or three days of almost like using it before you get back on it, whereas if you can do a little bit, take a day off a little bit, take a day off. Or do a little bit, take two days off. Do a little bit, take two days off from speed training. I think that tends to work quite well, but that will be certainly dependent on the person. But yeah, what I definitely don’t want someone to do is like might just be training is a good idea. I can start tomorrow and I’m going to reach 50 swings a day Like a person. I would put money on them, probably running into an issue, and that would derail their progress quite quickly, as opposed to the person who sat the two or three a week for like 50 swings. I’d be gradually built up over in the course of weeks and months.

0:59:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I’m sure you’ve had this before too, but I’ve actually had a couple clients or people reach out and say hey, I’ve been doing my speed training six days a week and I’m not really seeing a whole lot of gain anymore. Well, how about we go back to two and I bet you’ll start to see some gains again, or maybe, or maybe not, but at least you’re not going to hurt yourself.

0:59:53 – Mike Carroll
Yeah. So what’s interesting about like speed training and city? I learned that I don’t know if there’s some video with Chris Beardsley, the striking conditioning research guy. So he’s an English guy that does a lot of like mentorship and education for coaches, but he’s written a lot about fatigue and the different types of fatigue and how it impacts, how training while we’re still under fatigue from a previous training session or training sessions kind of inhibit progress. And one of the things that he talks about which is really interesting is that when we have central nervous system fatigue which can be built up from and not a different types of workouts, and it’s primarily related to muscle damage.

So muscle damage sounds scary. That basically what happens, like after an intense workout whether it’s like if you ran for you know whatever, like 30 minutes or 60 minutes or whatever someone may do like you’re going to have some muscle damage in your calves and quads and things like that. It’s not a big deal. It’s one of the signals for your muscles to repair and get stronger. And if you do a hard workout in the gym, you’re going to have some muscle damage. And when we have muscle damage, that’s going to lead to some central nervous system fatigue. And when we have central nervous system fatigue we can’t do as good a job at sending the signal from our grade through our spinal cord to our fast twitch fibers and telling them to recruit. And that’s a problem when we’re speed training because they’re the exact muscle fibers that we’re trying to get better at using. So that’s why we like over time when we’re past the beginner stage and getting to get hired. So we need to be a little bit smart with our speed training and learning that we need to find windows when we’re as fresh as possible to do the training. That’s probably not a huge concern for people just starting out, but definitely when people start to hit plateaus or if it’s people who train a lot, like you said, and they’re wondering why they’re not approving.

It’s one of the hardest things for a motivated, let’s say, athletes or people to do is that when they’re not seeing the progress, they want is to stay back the amount they’re doing. It’s really hard and I think golf attracts a lot of, say, type A personalities because it’s hard and you need to put a lot of work into it and you know the feedback is very objective in terms of like your score and your handicap. Those people have done well in other aspects of their life, like school and business and work and things like that from working harder. It’s like if this isn’t going well, I need to work harder. And I get so many emails from people and they lay out you know, I’ve been training hard, I’ve been in the gym, I’ve been doing my speed training, I’m plateauing, I’m getting worse. Like what exercises do I need to add? Or like what are the workouts do I need to do? And it’s like show me your schedule. It’s like you know probably need to like cut out some of this stuff and take like more days of rest in between things. And it’s hard because they’re used to like but now I feel like I’m not doing enough, like how am I going to get better?

But generally what it does is gives them a chance to recover between their workload, because the whole like a mechanism of training is that like this is kind of the oldest cliche there is. But like we don’t improve from the training session that we’re doing, generally we improve from the stimulus that that puts on our body and then when we recover from that is when we see the improvements. But if all we’re doing is applying the stimulus and there’s not enough time to recover. We can’t make that like step by step progression and that can get hard to figure out after a while. But that’s that’s one of the things that I would I would say is important to be mindful of. Is is if you’re serious about speed training and you’re not seeing the proper suit like is, don’t be afraid to play around with doing doing less basic.

1:04:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s such a great point and one that I hope the people listening take to heart, and that goes for their strength training, that goes for you know, running, walking, all of it, that you know sometimes you you can just be putting too much stress and stimulus into the body and you’re never giving it time to go through that repair and recovery period.

1:04:34 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, and that’s that’s also like when people start to get peaks and pains or get an injury and like injuries are by far the quickest way to derail progress, generous fitness and health or getting better at golf, because when you ask when you’re forced to take time out, there’s nothing more you know insuring and there’s nothing, obviously, that ruins consistency like an injury. So there’s there’s a certain faction of people where they struggle with the motivation to exercise Like they’re more. They struggle with actually showing up and doing it and getting into a routine. But then there is definitely a faction of people where they really struggle to not push themselves to act. They’re in the mindset that more and harder is always better than that’s also a problem.

And when those people are basically given like some extra time to recover and maybe they put more of an emphasis on, like their sleep and nutrition rather than just how hard they’re doing their training sessions, that’s when they really start to make progress. But they struggle because you’re literally telling them no, like two days in this week or whatever, like your job is to is to not exercise Like I want you to do, like you can go for a walk or something like that, but I want you to stay like relaxed and give your body a chance to recover. I don’t want you doing another like hit session or I don’t want you, you know, doing an extra workout for whatever reason, like that’s just delaying the recovery and you can’t make, you can’t get benefits from it.

1:06:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Totally, mike, this has been awesome. I got a couple of questions that we ask everybody at the end of the show to wrap up here so we won’t take up too much of your time. So, just like we asked everybody on the show, caddy Shack or Happy Gilmore.

1:06:28 – Mike Carroll
Happy Gilmore.

1:06:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I figured strength speed. You know, it’s all all about hitting bombs, right.

1:06:34 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, exactly.

1:06:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
If you could pick a walk up song to the first T-Box, what’s your song?

1:06:40 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, DMX X, gonna give it to ya. Nice, I just thought my Spotify rapped. You know that everybody was posting yesterday. Yeah, and two of my top number one of two songs were both DMX.

1:06:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I haven’t even opened mine up yet, but I’m gonna guess Zach Bryan’s probably at the top of mine, but there’s some probably 90s hip hop and rapping there for sure. Yeah, is there a book that you like to recommend to people, one that maybe you’ve read, that means a lot to you and that you tend to recommend or have shared with a lot of folks, whether it be golf, fitness or just something else.

1:07:19 – Mike Carroll
I go with two for like everyday life stuff. I would say Katalina Cabots by James Clear. I think it was really good. Probably a popular answer, I’m sure, but it’s really good. And then for golf, I think that everybody every like teen golfer that’s better interested in understanding golf better and improving should read every shop counts by Mark Brody. Arguably nobody has had a bigger influence on the direction that golf has went in the last 10 years or so in Mark Brody.

1:07:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I would totally agree with that for sure. If you could pick a dream for some celebrities, athletes, whoever it might be, that you could go play golf with who’s in your for some.

1:08:07 – Mike Carroll
So I never got to meet either of my crowd sawters and they passed before I was born. So I had picked both of those and probably Rory I’m a big Rory son.

1:08:22 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, can’t imagine. Why.

1:08:24 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, well, when I was so Rory is, I think, maybe two years older than me so like when I was a teenager playing in Ireland growing up, rory was kind of getting what he was. He was already famous in Ireland. He was famous in Ireland from when he was quite young and then obviously his progression was very, very fast and high. So, following him for like a long time I’d love to play with him Excellent.

1:08:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Is there a bucket list course that if we said, Mike, we’re flying the 18STRONG jet, we’re taking you anywhere you want to go. We have access to go to any golf course on the planet. Where are you going?

1:09:03 – Mike Carroll
I think I’d really like to play at Royal County Dau in Ireland, under the condition that we get a good day of weather. There’s so many really good courses in Ireland that I haven’t played because I moved here like shortly after college, which is kind of when it’s only there when you can start before the play, that when you kind of have your own card stuff. I got to play Cyprus Point last year, which was really cool, which is probably one of the more popular ones, and I went to the Masters last year as well to watch. So I’ve seen both of those places. I think I’ve seen some pictures of what can get out and heard reports and it looks really nice. So that’s probably top of my list right now.

But I’m not a huge golf course. You know sicko. Some people are like, oh my God, have you seen this place? Or they’re really interested in like golf course architecture or layouts and stuff like that. I’m not huge for that. Like I appreciate a good one if I’m there, but I don’t really have a list of courses where I have to go play here.

1:10:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Got it All right. You obviously have a very robust social media presence. Is there a social media account that you like to follow, like to watch and this doesn’t have to be in the golf realm at all that you would recommend to the 18STRONG crew?

1:10:25 – Mike Carroll
So yeah, it’s funny. I immediately thought of, like educational ones. People who listen to this show, I think need to check out Chasing Scratch and they have a podcast, youtube channel, social media presence, their podcast in particular, chasing Scratch. I would say that people would really, really enjoy. Yeah, it’s basically about two guys in their late 30s with regular jobs, families there are never any gaps and they kind of come up with an idea one day Could we get to scratch in a year? And they start to document their progress and, yeah, it goes from there and they’re both hilarious, but it also has times where it’s serious and there’s some soul searching. That’s very good. I highly recommend it.

1:11:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome, We’ll definitely check it out. And last piece what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given?

1:11:41 – Mike Carroll
It’s pretty cliche, but I saw it depends. I’m going to go with two. So number one is that you can’t get away. If you want to get really good at golf, you can’t get away from the importance of ball and striker.

1:12:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You have to hit a lot of greens.

1:12:03 – Mike Carroll
If you look at the statistics between greens and regulation and average store hand-to-hand count, that relationship is very true. You have to get good at hitting the ball. You have to get used to making a lot of boring cheap-blood prayers. Obviously that requires a lot of work and time to put into it, but in terms of how somebody could maybe improve tomorrow is just trying to be present and actually follow the mantra of one shot at a time. What that means is that you’re not allowing how previous shots in the route have wiped or what the outcome of the upcoming shot might mean for your score or your handicap or place in the tournament affect how you approach the current shot.

Hearing Try and treat each golf shot as a separate entity. Something that I try and do when I’m playing it might sound kind of weird but I guess like a land-shot or something that I have is I try and be the world’s best caddy to myself. I try and essentially talk to myself in a way that if I was working for my best friend or my player and trying to have them do as well as possible over each shot in the round, that’s kind of the way that I try and approach it.

1:13:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s probably helped save you from trying to make a few of those hero shots out of the trees cutting a ball around 100%, like I would say.

1:13:36 – Mike Carroll
An area where I’ve had to get better on the golf course and I still fall into a trap is getting too aggressive with second shots on pair of fives, what I’d not in a great position off the tee or there’s trouble over on the green because you’re thinking these are the holes where you should make birdie, should be up around the green in two, and then all of a sudden it can be really hard to make prayer. Scott Flossus has a product system called Decade which has some really good stuff about that for any kind of very keen golfers.

1:14:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, we actually just had Scott on the show just a couple of weeks ago.

1:14:22 – Mike Carroll
Yeah, his stuff is really really fantastic.

1:14:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Really. Yeah, it’s awesome. All right, my friend, this was awesome. I’ve been sitting and talking to you for another couple of hours, but this has been so great to finally meet you in person, kind of, and get to know you. But pick your brain a little bit and I know the 18STRONG crew is totally going to go check out all of your stuff if they’re not already on your platforms. But can’t thank you enough for the time and just keep up doing the great work, man.

1:14:48 – Mike Carroll
Thanks, jeff I appreciate it.

1:14:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share it with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Stay great hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Transcribed by https://podium.page

Guest: Dylan Wu (PGA Tour Golfer)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 360
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

On this installment of the 18STRONG Podcast, join us as we sit down with PGA Tour golfer, Dylan Wu. Listen in as Dylan shares his journey from childhood golf games with his family to becoming a professional golfer. Get a glimpse into the life of a pro golfer, as Dylan gives us insight into the challenges of traveling on tour, prioritizing fitness, nutrition, and recovery, and the importance of having a solid support system – including his brother who doubles as his full-time caddy.

As we navigate the complex world of professional golf, we get an inside look at how failure is often a stepping stone to success. Dylan discusses his experiences on both the Korn Ferry Tour and the PGA Tour, highlighting the significance of learning from setbacks and the mental toughness required in high-pressure situations on the course. Further along, we explore the lifestyle changes and challenges associated with transitioning from the Korn Ferry Tour to the PGA Tour, including changes in course conditions and competition levels.

Wrapping up the episode, Dylan opens up about his off-season training and how he’s constantly working on improving his golf swing and overall performance. He also discusses the critical role of fitness and nutrition in his career, and how it contributes to his performance on the course. Finally, Dylan reveals his love for golf literature, his dream celebrity foursomes, and bucket list golf courses, as well as sharing some invaluable advice for success. So whether you’re a golf enthusiast or just love a good success story, this episode with Dylan Wu is one you don’t want to miss.

(00:03) Interview With Dylan Wu

PGA Tour golfer Dylan Wu shares his journey, experiences, and support system, including his brother as his caddy and first tour win.

(13:46) Learning From Failure in Golf

Professional golfer’s experiences on Korn Ferry and PGA Tour, learning from failures, visualizations, and differences in competition level.

(17:49) Golf Conditions and Tour Travel Changes

PGA Tour vs. Korn Ferry Tour: Course conditions, competition level, travel logistics, and upcoming schedule changes for professional golfers.

(28:24) Improving Golf Swing and Performance

Off-season training for professional golfers focuses on improving mobility, posture, and swing changes, while also mastering skills for tournament performance.

(34:26) Playing Golf

Golfers of varying skill levels discuss swing thoughts, visualizing shots, and practicing effectively on the course.

(46:01) Fitness and Nutrition in Golf Importance

Fitness, nutrition, and mental benefits in golf, including MyFitnessPal app, warm-up exercises, and preference for Caddyshack.

(52:54) Book Recommendations and Dream Golf Courses

Professional golfer Dylan Wu recommends books on the mental side of golf, shares dream celebrity foursome and discusses bucket list golf courses and favorite golf shoes.

(01:00:39) The Key to Success

Professional golfer Dylan Wu shares insights on hard work, humility, and leaving it all on the course, with the help of 18STRONG.

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0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode number 360 with Dylan Wu, pga Tour golfer. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe that everyone deserves to play better, longer. In today’s episode we are interviewing Dylan Wu, pga Tour golfer, and we get a chance to talk to him about really him working his way onto the tour from Northwestern University through the Canadian Tour, corn Fairy Tour, all the way up to the PGA Tour. We talk about his challenges, his successes and even some stories about him and his having his brother on the bag as his caddy which he’s now his full-time caddy, but some funny stories from when he first started out. And then we’re going to talk about his fitness and his nutrition and really the lifestyle that he lives on the PGA Tour Lot of travel, lot of situations where he has to really plan out what he’s doing, and so his work on his fitness game, his nutrition and really recovery is very, very important to him. So we’re going to talk about all that in this episode with Dylan.

Right after this, our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach, there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel, for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview, Dylan Wu. Welcome to the 18strong podcast.

0:02:05 – Dylan Wu
Thanks for having me, guys.

0:02:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, for sure, man. This is exciting. I’m really excited to talk to you about your career on the Korn Ferry tour the last couple years on the PGA Tour, and we were just kind of catching up about you starting out playing golf at such a young age, like three years old. So give us a little background on you and your history with your family and playing golf with your dad, and then we’ll jump into the rest of the career.

0:02:28 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, so I grew up in Southern Oregon, a town called Medford, pretty close to the border of California, the oldest of four. But yeah, when I was born my dad started learning the game of golf and I have pictures of myself when I was one or two on the button green. I don’t remember them, but it happened and my earliest memory I remember is just carrying a set of Snoopy clubs to the range of my dad. But the one thing cool thing is my brothers are twin brothers, 16 months younger than me and they both played college golf. I played golf in Northwestern. Jeremy, who actually Caddys for me now, played golf at Valparaiso, and then my other brother played golf at the Air Force. And then my sister just graduated this past spring from Lipscomb University in Nashville. So we have four D1 golfers in the family, which is pretty cool.

0:03:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So I mean, obviously you guys played a ton of golf together and then your brother now is on the bag and has been cadding for you for the last few years. We had some technical difficulties, so you actually just told me the story, but I’m gonna ask you to go ahead and tell it again about you bringing your brother on the bag and what that was like.

0:03:49 – Dylan Wu
Yeah. So I was on the Korn Ferry. This is back in 2021. I actually just qualified for the US Open and he was still working for Ernst Young in tax and accounting and he came to watch me at the US Open as a fan Boosing and just watching golf and having a good time. And I was kind of going in a different direction with my caddy and I wanted to kind of get a little more confidence in my own ability and own decision-making. So I kind of wanted to have Jeremy work one week the following week after the US Open, just carrying the bag and keeping it chill and just having good time. I also remember like told him I’d pay all his expenses at the beginning and then give him a percentage and like Maine is like the most expensive place, he’s eating lobster like 24-7. I’m like this is not a good deal for me but we end up playing pretty well. That week Finished 15th and I was like, okay, let’s caddy for a little bit. So three weeks later, playing in Springfield Missouri, his fourth week on the bag, we end up winning the tournament, which is unreal my only win on a PTA Tour sanctioned event today.

But I remember a funny moment on Sunday. It was around this part three. I’m like there’s four holes left. I have a two-shot lead. And I’m like, what are you doing? You’re not even helping get a yardage. You need to do something. You’re just standing there and I’m like, dude, we’re four holes from winning. Like just let’s get through this.

And he’s like, oh yeah, I probably should do something. And I even look at the notes from that week when we won and other weeks when he first started cadding for me and it’s like the most basic notes possible. It’s like right side good, left side bad. It’s like no notes of the wind or where the pin location is, how far I was hitting it. I’m just like, yeah, you basically were useless that week but we won. We actually just came out with a golf diadis article in October and I tell that story and the first review. I say that Jeremy was useless, but they didn’t really say anything after that. He’s way better at cadding now, but they kind of just left it like that. So I’m like, oh, you guys should probably say that he’s actually a good caddy now.

0:06:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, he’s actually getting better yeah.

0:06:37 – Dylan Wu
So the chemistry now is really good. But yeah, having your brother on the bag is definitely very unique. The one thing is you can be very transparent and honest, which is good or bad sometimes, because sometimes you just want to yell at your brother, Like I’m the big brother, I’m like he’s my little brother and I’m the boss. So like yeah, you should listen to me, I’ll just yell at you.

Talking to some other players, like Harry Higgs has his brother on the bag and we played with Harry one time and he just told me, like if anything goes wrong, I just want to kill Al, his caddy and brother. So it’s kind of the same way. Sometimes you just yell at your brother just to yell at them. But the one thing about your brother is that you can say anything to them. They’re always going to not take it personally and going to be there for no matter what. Like just wants the best for you. So that’s the one thing that’s been going good. Like honestly, my career has been slowly just going up and our chemistry has been just getting better.

0:07:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean, obviously you guys are good buddies. Has it ever gotten a little heated out there?

0:07:45 – Dylan Wu
Oh hundreds on. Yeah, I mean the stuff you hear between players and caddies. It’s like players are psycho. It’s like sometimes caddy just has to be a punching bag. Like you might be blaming the caddy, but like sometimes the caddy can do anything wrong and you just want to yell at them. You just need somebody to take it, because if you just bottle it inside it’s not going to turn out well. So sometimes I’m just like Jeremy. I’m like just don’t take it personal and just like sometimes just be pissed off and like just let just take it. But there’s times in the beginning where Jeremy is a little stubborn and I’m like he’s like talking back. I’m like why are you talking back? Do you think any other caddy is talking back?

0:08:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, that’s a different dynamic, having your little brother and because, yeah, I can just picture me and my little brother out on the course and him, you know, spitting it back, but then being the boss and being like, no, like you have to listen to me right now, this is the way this goes. So, as you came out of Northwestern University and then played some Canadian tour, I believe, but then got onto the corn fairy tour, I know that you had a situation where and this was in that article, because I read that article just this past week about where you missed a five foot putt in a Monday qualifier and kind of like really had you kind of put some things into perspective, what happened there and then what was the trajectory from there to you mentioned. Then you won in Springfield, right, but Yomo, I think in the article you said that you know that really helped push you along because you were so close and then just kind of helped move you forward into having more desire to get out there and win.

0:09:24 – Dylan Wu
For sure. Now I look at it, it was maybe a lowest point I’ve been in my golf career. Just because TurnPro in 2018, played in Canada, played decent, did Q-School, made it to Final Stage, which is a good big deal, but didn’t get guaranteed starts, finished like 85th at Final Stage. So I conditional set no status going into 2019. So I had to do a bunch of Monday qualifiers in the beginning of the year and I was in Kansas City. My game was feeling good, I was in the 844 playoffs and the second or third playoff hole I have a five footer to keep on going and it would have been a 3 for 2. After that and the guys who made par like were spraying it in the trees, like getting a little lucky, and I was like, okay, make this, we’ll be fine. And I remember hitting it and leaving it short and I’m like what the hell? I remember. So I literally tapped in, shook everybody’s hand, walked to the car, put my bag in the back of the rental car, closed it drove out like calmly, and as soon as I turned out of the clubhouse, I just remember just yelling and just like slamming my head into the steering wheel and just like thinking to myself like what am I doing? Like what? This isn’t even fun. Like this sucks. Like you can’t even get through a Monday qualifier. Or like when you’re playing well, it’s like every opportunity matters. I was like gosh, but it just shows that Monday qualifiers suck. It’s like it’s a very unique part of professional golf. It’s like one day just shoot out, like golf is four rounds, consistency and like every whole matters. But like if you don’t get off to a good start on Monday qualifier, you’re just like gone. Like anybody can play well on one day, especially on a Monday qualifier courses because they’re usually easier versus in a tour event in harder conditions, under four rounds. So before it still gave me a lot of confidence, but I remember that moment. I was just like this sucks. And honestly, a month later I ended up getting into the cornfield event in Springfield, illinois my second ever cornfield event and I shoot 65, 63 on the weekend getting a playoff. And then I lose on the third playoff hole to the guy who was number two on the points list and he made a 25 footer for birdie. So I went from having conditional status to having full status and being in the rest of the season. So that was huge. Yeah, it just yeah, that was. That was very huge.

And then kept my card going into 2020. So, at full status, going to 2020 on the cornfield, and I started the season awesome. And if it wasn’t for COVID, I would have got my tour card in 2020. Oh, really. But because, yeah, because of COVID nobody graduated and there was two years on tour. So instead of finishing in the top 25 after 25 events, you have to do it after 45 events, which is 10 times harder. Yeah, it takes so many more points. It was so hard and that’s why that Springfield, missouri, was the end of 2021. So then I got my tour card in the fall of 2021. And now I’ve just finished my second year on tour.

0:13:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome and you had an event in the Bahamas, I think it was, where you said that you had a seven shot lead. You kind of let that drift away a little bit. But what I thought was really cool in the interview that you were talking about this is that you said that the ability for you to have I think it was maybe a bad a rough Saturday where you lost the lead but then you were able to grind back and get to a T2. And it sounded like you really took a lot away from that fact that you were in the lead, you were able to go low, didn’t quite win, but you were able to kind of bounce back. Is that right?

0:13:45 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, 100%. So first event of 2020, we’re in Bahamas, exuma. It’s like the windiest place on earth and for some reason the first two days I just black out 11 under par, cuts like five over. I have a seven shot lead and it’s like probably one of the worst places to have a seven shot lead because it’s just so windy and there’s trouble everywhere.

I just lost it really easily, not even like hitting that bad of shots and I was just like that’s tough, but I lost it after like the first four or five holes on Saturday and then could have easily melted and finished like what 25th, the 30th and just bad week, but kind of just hung in there and just grind it and then like every point matters on the corn for it when you’re trying to get your tour card.

So finishing T2 was huge and it just gave me a lot of experience from that moment, like I’ve never been in that position before and I just learned a lot and I think that really helped me moving forward a year and a half later to winning in Springfield Missouri when I had the second opportunity and the Springfield Missouri was actually kind of new too, because I’ve never held a 74 hole lead and I think just the experiences when you fail or you just don’t win, like you just learned so much more from those and then, yeah, that just kind of helped me just catapult to the PGA Tour and, honestly, just like all the failures you have or the struggles you have, as long as you learn from them, you’ll only get better. Like, whether you’re hitting a golf shot or arounds, like as long as you see every shot or everything as an experience into your memory bank, like that you’re always learning. Whether I miss the cut or I play really well, it’s all about moving forward and helping you get better for the next time.

0:15:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Do you ever find yourself drawing on those moments like legitimately in an event, or like you know, like I got to hit a great seven iron here. Do you ever flash back to like shots that you’ve hit with that seven iron or different situations that you’ve been in that are similar to that, where you know like, hey, I’ve done this before.

0:16:04 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, I don’t necessarily remember images of hitting it before, but having like a positive visual image or a memory or just bring it back, it really helps. Like I’ve been here before, like you said, is what I tell myself you’ve been here, you can do this, you can do this, whether you’re hitting a five footer to win a tournament or to make the cut. It’s like you’ve hit this putz so many times in practice. It’s just like you have to execute it in tournament atmosphere, which is way harder.

So just anything you can draw on from experiences where it’s good or bad, and it’s very helpful, like I think, when, whatever your failures, and then the next time you’re in it you can be like this is what happened last time, like what I think went wrong, and let’s just focus a little more on like trying to not do that. Yeah, I try to do better, but yeah, all of those experiences are just. I mean, I’m 27, but I feel like I’ve had so many experiences already and I can’t even believe guys who have been playing till like they’re 60 and have like 25 years on tour and it’s just so much experience and it’s like sometimes getting mad and getting frustrated like doesn’t make sense, like what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen?

0:17:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You’re going to hit another golf shot, so yeah, what’s been the biggest change from corn fairy tour to the PGA tour as far as like the, from the competitive level? Because obviously the guys on the corn fairy tour I mean we’re seeing incredible athleticism, incredible golfers. I mean we see guys coming from the corn fairy tour, straight from the corn fairy tour winning in some of these events. What have you noticed has been a big, bigger change from one to the other.

0:17:53 – Dylan Wu
Honestly, like a really big change is the golf courses and the conditioning. Let’s say like the PGA tour can kind of choose where they want to play every week. Like you’re playing in an area at the best time of the year, perfect conditions or at least ideal for court setup, like rough can be long, firm, it might be windy, but like it’s just, it’s just way more pure conditions versus on the corn fairy it’s a little more wet, greens are softer, less rough, and it’s kind of just score Like until you get to the PGA tour. Like college golf is closer to the PGA tour than corn fairy, almost because you play better courses in college than you do on the corn fairy. Like if a course is not hosting their PGA tour event, they want to host their alma mater. People love their schools, they want to. So like the college events I played in college you play Aaron Hills, olympia Fields, tpc, harding Park. I mean you play every. You play every cool course because people love college golf.

Yeah, they don’t like mini tours and corn fairy events as much, but that’s I’d say the biggest is the setup and yeah, the level is just so razor thin, like I honestly talking to especially guys that play on both tours, like older guys who’ve experienced a lot on the PGA tour and now are playing on the corn fairy a little bit. It’s just like it’s so thin. It’s just like all about playing well at the right time, like that’s what golf is. It’s like anybody can go go hit a good shot, but can you hit it under pressure when it matters the most, like can you get through Q school when it matters the most to further your career? Career, you make the cut. You play well in the back then to make the cut, just like everybody can do it when they’re practicing, but can you do it when it matters the most and it’s just small stuff.

And then being a rookie on the PGA tour is hard because you’re seeing everything for the first time. You really do feel like a rookie when you don’t even know where to register, like my rookie year, like where is parking, like what do I do? Just the small stuff. And then now I’m going to be finishing my second year, starting next year. I remember my second year was just so comfortable and basically you’re going to play all these tournaments the third time. There’s a few tournaments that I’m going to be playing for the first time, which will be super exciting. But being comfortable is also a huge part, like when you’re playing at a new place, where they’re on the Korn Ferry, on the PGA tour. Seeing something the first time, you’re a little uncomfortable. Once you have one tournament, or even one round, you’re just way more comfortable.

0:20:49 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, and hopefully your brother took better notes the first time around than he used to.

0:20:54 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, seriously, oh brutal.

0:20:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How has the travel these days now? Because obviously, being on the tour, you’ve got your schedule laid out a little bit more. And if you could even talk a little bit about the end of the year, what the fall season was like, and then moving into next year, what do you have access to being in? I think you were finished 86 then FedEx Cup points yeah.

0:21:21 – Dylan Wu
It’s so unique right now with the PGA tour because everything is changing. Like my rookie year was two years ago and it’s not even close the same as this year and next year is going to be different. Yeah, like I finished 86 after the Wyndham Championship and I usually would get into the playoffs and the playoffs were top 70. And now these fall series are finalizing the top 125s when in the past it’s the beginning of the season. So it’s so weird. Like I remember playing these fall events in the fall and I’m like this doesn’t seem part of the same season. And this past season we basically had two falls, so you had the fall of 22 and the fall of 23 in the same season and then we’ll start January calendar year in 2024 season. But, to answer your question, like the lifestyle and the traveling is very busy. I’m really looking forward to next year because it’ll be the first year we’re going to kind of plan and pick my schedule At least the normal regular full side PJ Tour events, because the designated events next year are all going to be small fields. So if you’re not a top player and didn’t finish in the top 50 in the FedEx Cup this past year, you won’t be in the designated events you kind of can play your way into if you’re playing well. So it’s just nice to know like I don’t have to play any Monday qualifiers like this past season on the PJ Tour I basically barely kept status after my rookie year because of the guys that went to live.

I struggled my rookie year and I finished in the conditional category, won 26 to 150. And honestly, like kept status by one shot, like two points, two FedEx Cup points over the season, which is one shot at some point. Like I play. I felt like I played horrible that first year but like every shot matters, like I was one shot away from going back to the corn fairy and luckily, with those guys going to live, I kept status on tour and I was able to play my way into bigger events out of the conditional category. And the conditional category this year sucked because you don’t even know you’re in tournaments Like you might be in alternate. Then you get in on Tuesday or Wednesday you might have to finish your tournament, play well, finish 15, like one shot out to the top 10, and then go catch a flight to do the Monday qualifier for the next week because you’re like second alternate. So it’s like the unknown stuff and the travel logistics that kind of sucked this year. But at the same time I was one shot away from going back to the corn fairy and I literally that one shot. I turned it into a really solid season on the PGA tour where I finished 86. Like, I think, my rookie year, I played 30 events, maybe just under, and I made like 13 or 14 cuts, and then this year I made 21 with a lot more better results.

I mean, yeah, the first year was a struggle for sure, but I’m just looking forward next year to just knowing I’m in the field. I don’t have to check it all the time. Now I can see who’s in the field at the end. It just makes it easier to schedule stuff. I can plan something for, say, like John Deere Classic next year already now. I can plan for the fall next year if I want to. So, like going forward, I hope I can just plan my schedule all the time because that’s what the big guy’s going to do and I haven’t really had the opportunity yet. So I’m looking forward to that. But I’m definitely not going to take it for granted, because you just got to keep on working hard Until you really win on the PGA tour, your job’s not really secure. So yeah, I mean I love having a time this off season to rest because it’s been a busy year, but I’m excited to get back going in January and just keep it going. It’s awesome to be on the PGA tour. Sometimes the golf’s the easiest part. The travel, the lifestyle just being constantly on the road is probably the worst part. But there’s no better feeling than playing inside the ropes, hitting shots under pressure, like in front of the most fans possible, like.

Some of the coolest moments this year were on Saturday at the Players’ Championship On 17,. I hit first in the group, hits like eight feet First time I hit the green. The first three days I hit like on the fringe and then in the bunker. The first two days Hits eight feet. But it’s like four o’clock on Saturday, place is pretty buzzing. I hit a pretty good shot, cheer in and then my buddy Aaron Ryze, playing right behind me, oh right, no. Ting next in the same group Makes a hole in one and it was just one of the sickest moments that I didn’t even hit a shot. But I was like Holy shit, this is so cool, like the place is buzzing. Luckily I already hit my shot. Glad I didn’t have to go next. But luckily I made birdie. But that was a cool moment. I mean really cool moments this year.

I couldn’t imagine, like at the beginning of the year, like these things happening, like I just had such a big increase to playing well on my second year than the first year, like I shot 61 this year at the American Express, 11 under I made an Albatross and rocket mortgage from 262 yards. I had to play with John Rom at the US Open. But that’s the one thing too is like I want I want to play against the best players in the world and see how I stack up against. So, like every time I’m playing in a big event, I want to play. I want to get paired with somebody who’s a big name. It’s just to watch them and just also learn and see how my game compares. That’s what you want. You want to play against the best. And yeah, I’m just looking forward to next year for sure, just trying to get better every year. Luckily, my career has kind of been slowly going up and up, so I hope I could just keep on getting better and better, and that’s all you can ask for.

0:27:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what does that look like this offseason? Because that sounds like you had a little more time to kind of relax, recover a little bit. But I know you’re working with Adam and fitness wise and putting in a lot of time and effort. What does the fitness side look like? What are you working on golf wise? How does that play out right now?

0:27:47 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, yeah, 100%. Like right now it’s nice to have a little offseason, so like right now I’m kind of addressing some of the stuff I need to improve fitness wise and then also technical wise in every part of my game, like, say, fitness right now One of the things we analyzed is that like I did a really good job of take care of my body the whole year and working out and feeling good, nothing hurting, and everything like that, and I feel like I’m strong enough to hit the ball far if I want to. But to help me gain speed this offseason it’s kind of just do things that are going to help my deficiencies and like one of the things is my overhead mobility. Like for some reason, like growing up kind of had bad posture. Growing up I wish my parents like told me, told me the stance rate, or like when I was like eight, not when I was like 16. But like my overhead mobility is not as great. So like really even like straightening my arm here it’s like really hard to do, like even the basic stuff. So like I think that’s why in my swing, sometimes when I get to the top, it’s a little harder to hold and stabilize or like pause Sometimes, like when I’m working on something, you want to slow it down, you want to pause. It’s really hard.

So I’m trying to do a lot of like more corrective stuff, like that posture stuff, like I’m doing some kind of glute strength and just small stuff versus like heavy lifting, because I do a decent amount of that during the season and I feel like my strength isn’t the problem in the gym, it’s more making sure I’m being doing the right stuff to create speed and it’s kind of correcting the deficiencies a little bit. And I feel like I’m doing strength, making sure not just being able to like, say, squat, but able to like put my leg against the wall where I’m like in a position where I can’t use any other muscles to compensate, and like use strictly glute Like. I feel like my body is good at cheating yeah, cheating. And so like trying to make it where it’s really hard and your brain kind of works a lot, basically doing corrective exercises the past week where I spend like not even that much time but like 15-20 minutes, but it’s like very brain heavy versus like working out and doing a lot of exercise where it’s golf exercises, like rotation stuff, like that. But I know it’s not going to help me as much, as if I can get a little more range of motion in my upper body and like maybe it helps me hold the club a little stronger here or helps make it help my posture, helps me get less maybe kinks in my neck over the season, just from golf. You’re just so rounded all the time but just doing that stuff.

And then on this on the technical side, I saw my coach on Monday. He came to Scott, still from Chicago, just doing more block practice right now. And one thing we’re trying to change my backswing a little bit. It’s getting getting a little deep in the cross now. It’s kind of hooking the ball too much. It feels more laid off and more in front of me. So it doesn’t feel great because I’m like the club’s like pointed this way.

But it’s crazy thing with golf is like you try to change something in your swing and it feels so different and it’s like you may, you may be changed, the club like this much.

Yeah, you just got exaggerated so much to make changes and that’s the one thing right now with an offseason, you can actually make changes and embrace it.

So, like I’m, the process right now is like when I hit balls in practice and just try to do the motion right, like just getting comfortable doing that, not really caring where the ball goes.

Right now it takes more like I played golf in Oregon the last two days with my brother and my dad but I didn’t really care where the golf balls going, because I’m trying to work on this stuff, because of I it doesn’t matter, I’m just playing with my buddies and stuff like that, but I want it to matter when it when I’m playing in the Sony and I start off in January.

So you just want to embrace the change, because a lot of time in the middle of the season, it’s a lot of maintenance. You can’t really make changes, like on Tuesday and you’re trying to change your swing thoughts and you think it’s going to, you’re going to trust on Thursday or Friday. It’s just so hard. So this is a time where this week I’ll do a little block practice and then basically a little before Christmas is when I’ll ramp back into like tournament prep, hitting shots, executing, practicing more no one say practice with a purpose, but like mastery and just doing things that’s going to help me perform better and execute and get ready. Get ready for a tournament versus making this swing look pretty Right to make sure it’s functional.

0:32:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah. So like kind of getting a little bit more into almost like games, game kind of situations where you got it, I got to hit this shot, or I got it, I got it. You know, dial in your distances and things like that For sure.

0:32:56 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, just doing like drills for mastery and just try to get better. And then when you do those drills and you’re so you’re doing track men drills, hitting numbers, hitting the shot shapes you want, and like doing putting drills, working on your speed, pulling out a lot Then it makes golf just normal golf easier. You’re just Making your practice more tournament like.

0:33:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Let’s take a second to thank our sponsors over at 1st Phorm, and this week I want to highlight their formula one post workout protein shake. I use this thing pretty much every day after my workouts because, let’s face it, being here in the gym Working all the time with clients putting on a podcast, it can sometimes be tough to get my protein in on a regular basis, and so I know that with the post workout shake the formula one, first of all, it’s fast acting. So right after your workout is a great time to get your protein in to help build your muscles, get yourself stronger and repair what you’ve done in the gym, but also, if you don’t know if you’re gonna be able to get your protein in in your regular meals, it’s just a great way to make sure that you’re supplementing and hitting those marks. So be sure to go over to 1st Phorm dot com forward slash 18STRONG to get your 1st Phorm Formula one protein shake, and everyone that enters through that link is gonna be put into a drawing every single month for free 1st Phorm products. So, again, go over to 1st Phorm dot com forward slash 18STRONG.

I got a question for you, since you were just out playing with your buddies. When, when you’re playing with your buddies I mean, are they all different calibers of golfer? And when you’re out there, like what are the things that you see them do? That you’re like dude, that’s just, that’s just silliness that you’re, that you’re trying that yeah, no, it’s funny.

0:34:45 – Dylan Wu
I put with a lot of Normal players and pro-am, so whatever. Like I put with my brother, cat is race is a good golfer now. He’s actually better now that he was in college, which is hilarious, probably just from watching good golf. Try to think of the things that people do. It’s just, it’s really. It’s for me, it’s like if I see them swing one or two times, like I can, I can give him a pretty good tip and make it pretty simple and it helps them and they’re like surprised, like oh wow, it worked. I’m like, yeah, I know what I’m doing. Guys do this for a living. Like I can help you. Um, but just a small things I tell people, like when I do clinics or like I teach a little bit, say, if we’re like a Northwestern outing for my coach, like some small things that I try to do to help people are like go on the range and Hit the shots are actually gonna hit on the golf course because most people just play the course that they’re playing All the time.

It’s like you know what you’re gonna hit, why you gonna hit. What you name is five iron. When you’re not gonna had five or when you’re playing Just makes no sense, right, I mean you might feel better but you’re not gonna hit that shot. So just practice like you’re gonna play a little and it makes it simple. It’s like just hit a few drivers and then put a lot chip. Probably not gonna hit every green, but it’s just funny watching a People play and like the stuff they say after it.

It’s like I knew that was, it’s gonna go right. I’m like you guys are mental midgets kind of exactly yeah, like it’s like it’s gonna go right. I’m like how about we hit this left? Like people think that pros Don’t worry about like out of bounds or water, which is not true at all. Like I’m on a team like don’t. There’s.

Some thoughts were like a don’t top this, like I can hit a bad shot. But it’s like I Acknowledge what’s out there, like the trees that abounds or the water, and I’m just like, okay, I’m gonna aim at this tree, I’m gonna hit this shot this way and see that I’m right here. The winds, here it’s gonna be. Now you’re just so focused on the shot you’re trying to hit that Hopefully you execute it decently well, but most of the time you won’t hit it out of bounds or in the water. You’re likely to hit in the water and out of bounds when you’re thinking about it, but also sometimes when you’re Pretending like you’re not, like oh, it’s not there, but then deep down there, it’s Behind, it’s just there. It’s like when you’re hitting a shot and like, oh, you know, I acknowledge in the water, like oh, it’s an easy hole, I’m like just Full-shitting yourself.

0:37:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, totally. When you’re out there, are you? Do you feel like at at your level and most of the pros out there? I guess you can’t speak for anybody else, but when you’re playing, are you ever Thinking swing thoughts? Or have you found it a way to really visualize your shot, feel the shot, pay attention to the shot, not so much what’s going on with the mechanics of your swing?

0:37:48 – Dylan Wu
I wish I could just Think the shot I want to hit and hit it. Like that’s one of my best friends, davis Riley, who’s a really good player on tour. I Just joke with him. He stripes it. I’m like, yeah, your swing thoughts are turn turn. That’s not everybody at all.

I’ve always been a player that like has to have a few swing thoughts to play well. But it’s like not letting those swing thoughts like you have to control the shot you’re trying to hit. You got to feel like you have like ownership over it. Don’t just like, oh, I put this club in this position and I did that right and the shot turned out bad. Like no, let’s have, let’s have a little control and like Feel like you can hit this shot this way by doing this, you know. So I think that’s how I do it.

Like I visualize shot I wanted a high cut. I’d be like, oh, did I cut? I need to make sure I do this backswing a little better for the hand. My hands are a little higher top Because I get the club a little more on plane. I don’t think like Because it gets more on plan. I’m just like I know if I have my hands higher here at laid off, it’s gonna easier to cut the ball.

But I’m always a firm believer there’s like a few good swing thoughts that helps, just helps you keep it simple and have something to think about to produce the shot you want to hit. Because I mean, I had Thousand times more balls than other people and if they’re just like, imagine the shot and then just swinging, probably not gonna turn out exactly perfect every time, you got to practice quite a bit, but if you, if you know what you need to do to produce that shot, then you just focus on that a little bit and more or not it’s gonna get closer to hitting that shot, like when players slice it. I’m like let’s swing towards first base Like everybody plays baseball. Let’s get this underneath and swing right Like people. You understand that you need to swing right to draw the ball and you swing right To cut the ball and you swing left to cut the ball, which is weird. So Just small things like that.

0:39:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Now, you played hockey grown up in and I believe that it took a little while to get your slap shot out of your golf swing. Is that what I heard?

0:40:05 – Dylan Wu
For sure. I think a lot of my golf swing is from a hot, like I’m a very shallow, very open rotation, like I gained speed. When I think of a speed in my swing, I don’t think like arms or like pushing up anything, I think just rotating, and it’s probably just because I opened up for a one-timer, that’s, I was a right defenseman and then every time I was on a faceoff on the right side of the zone I Would be ready for a slap shot and that’s probably why I have a really weak hand left-hand grip Because of just your stick, that versus like clothes. So a lot of it comes from hockey. I mean, that’s what, deep down on, like God, I wish I had a normal grip, like a more conventional swing. But you got a note you got to figure out which, what makes you play good golf and your golf DNA and like what makes your golf swing good, like the stuff that you grew up doing well, and your swing is probably what’s gonna be good the rest of your life. But yeah, hockey, hockey was great, it was. It was so fun. My brothers that played good way to get anger out Versus golf at backfires pretty quickly.

But the one thing I loved about golf more was that like it’s all on yourself. It’s like the highs are high but the lows are low, because you have nobody else to rely on. You have a caddy but you don’t have teammates to pass the puck to To like bail you out. And I was. I was a good hockey, like really good hockey player, my brothers and I were, and I was like the captain of the team. But I would just I’d be a little mean to other players because like you guys can do better, come on like let’s, let’s do your job. But I think that’s why I love golf so much, because it’s all on myself and I’m not afraid to tell myself Like I can do it, but I can. I’m not also I’m afraid to tell myself like that was a terrible golf shot, like it’s got to be honest with yourself. So it’s that blend.

0:42:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
As you’re kind of ramping up in this offseason. You’re working on your fitness. You know you’re working on some of the block practice stuff, working on the golf game. I know that nutrition has been a big thing for you too. What are you focusing on nutrition-wise? How has that played an impact in your game? And, I would assume, when you’re traveling, that can be a big deal too 100%.

0:42:29 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, I’ve been fortunate enough to surround myself with a good team, whether that’s my trainer, sports psychologist, my golf coach, but also I have a great sponsor in my fitness pal. They’ve been great with me. It’s been just coming up on two years. It’s the number one diet I’m tracking up in the country, just so easy for me to kind of track what I’m eating and make sure I’m eating healthy. But also making sure I’m hitting my calorie goals, because, honestly, when I’m walking around a golf I’m bringing a lot of calories. I might be working out in the gym before I even play. This is like I mean, every week I’m walking 9 to 100 holes. So making sure I’m hitting the calorie goals, like the macros, making sure I’m eating enough protein, just doing the small stuff, like making sure I’m supplying myself on the course with good snacks to keep my energy up. If I do all these things along with my fitness, then I know when I say perform badly, I’m not just performing badly because of my fitness or nutrition. That’s not a reason. And I feel like that’s a good component because you want to know why you struggle and you want it to just be basically golf. You don’t want it because you’re sleeping bad or eating bad, or feeling bad or injured, like if it’s golf. That’s why golf is sometimes the easiest part. My fitness has been great. It’s just so easy. I travel, go to grocery stores and then you can scan stuff so easily in the app and it goes right in there. I can just track what I eat really easily.

I think for normal amateurs people don’t snack enough on the golf course and as a pro it’s hard to do too. Luckily I have a caddy that helps me tell me when to eat. Half his job is like all right, we’re at the turn, we’re at every six holes, let’s eat some food, or you need a snack, you need to drink water. You’re sweating a lot Like electrolytes. It’s just so important, I think. Just the fitness and taking care of your body whether that’s eating healthy or working out more or making yourself feel better by just doing a lot of mobility and stretching it’s just so important in our career, just because we’re constantly traveling, like in airplanes, driving, you’re just constantly on your feet and it’s just it’s kind of busy. So if I can kind of keep everything routine and just do the right stuff, especially when I’m on the road, that’s all I can ask for.

And then I definitely I’m a big foodie, so I don’t have the greatest diet, especially a holiday season right now. Like I love to eat different foods and everything like that. But when I’m at tournaments I’m definitely a little more disciplined, like eat a good breakfast and lunch, especially when I’m playing, because that’s I just want to make sure that I’m not feeling bad or anything because I’m eating a bad meal. Like most of the time I’m eating breakfast on the road, I’m eating like an omelet with a bunch of veggies, a smoothie with protein and like spinach and stuff like that, and then some sausage or bacon, some protein or hot blood eggs, and for lunch I’m a lot of salads with salmon or chicken. Then dinner time is when I like mix it up. But I mean sometimes, when you finish around and it’s dark, just go straight to Chipotle and get a chicken bowl. That’s. That’s a go to that every, every loves.

But yeah, my, my sponsor, my fitness has been great and for me, like I want to play golf for a long time and taking care of my body is a it’s a big thing and I just want to make sure that I can stay healthy, like Tiger’s playing this week Will’s out of sources coming back. He’s Will and I are the same age and he’s been out for seven months and he’s one of the best players in the world. If I can go my entire career without any problems or being basically being injured, free and healthy with no health problems, that’s all I can ask for. Yeah, so it’s just been been great to have a good team of sponsors, where it’s my trainer or my golf instructor all the way to all the sponsors are represented, and my family my wife it’s just been takes a whole team to to live in the crazy world of golf.

0:46:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah.

0:46:58 – Dylan Wu
Especially right now. It’s really crazy.

0:47:01 – Jeff Pelizzaro
There’s so many different things to manage right, and I don’t think that people give their nutrition and their hydration enough credit to how much that really impacts their game.

As far as just making decisions or being and you know, most of us are playing 18 holes of golf not for, you know, not a full week of golf and for very competitive rounds, but even through the course of 18 holes or playing, going on a guy’s golf trip or something like that, where you know it just messes with your decisions, it messes with your fatigue and your ability to hit shots when you want to hit shots. And then, regarding my fitness pal, because I’ve used it quite a bit, I think that everybody benefits from track, like tracking the calories, at least some point in their lifetime to just understand, like, what am I really taking into my body? You know, here at 18th round, we’re all about fitness and health and nutrition and so a lot of our listeners are looking to get in better shape and lose weight and it’s like, well, if you don’t know what you’re taking in and you don’t know, you know what you’re expending, you’re kind of, you know, just shooting at it, shooting missiles in the air and not really understanding it.

0:48:05 – Dylan Wu
A hundred percent. I feel like when I use the app. It was a lot of knowledge I learned in the beginning, like how easy it is to eat unhealthy sometimes and like if I just do just simple stuff like I don’t know, just eat good food, there’s plenty of good food out there that’s healthy for you, that’s good tasting and just hydrating is just a huge part of it. But my fitness pal does a great job because you can kind of do everything with fitness, like your calories, losing weight, researching foods all under the same umbrella, which is great, yeah. So I’m proud to be an ambassador for them and I’m hoping I can stay healthy and fit for a long time. I mean, hopefully in a couple of years I will. I can be super fit like Camille of Ajegous he’s probably a perfect example of it but I’m a big foodie and I love enjoying different and sometimes I have a sweet tooth, but I just know taking care of your body is just so important. I think it’s really good for mental health too. Like you just feel better Sometimes. I always joke. This is like my slogan. Like the players challenge you, they’re like what’s your slogan? I’m like my slogan is like eat well, play well. It’s not necessarily eat healthy all the time, but it’s like eat good and you’ll play well. It’s like also feel well, feel good and you might play better. I mean sometimes it’s placebo effect. Like sometimes, if you think something’s making you feel better, you’re actually going to play better. Yeah, I mean, you’re not going to play worse by eating healthier. I’ll tell you that I think that burger on the turn is probably not going to help or that hot dog on the turn. But like when the couple snacks I carry all the time in my bag are like nuts are super easy jerky. I think it’s like go macro bars that a lot of players and caddies like to use Fruit banana. There’s some people who are players I’ve seen in the past who are very extreme. Like one guy carried a whole orange bell pepper. I’m like what are we doing? I’m like that’s a little extra.

But yeah, probably nutrition is just so important.

It’s just like, yeah, for me I just want to feel good when I’m getting to the golf course, like if I had 30 minutes I don’t know if I said this before, but if I had 30 minutes before around a golf and it’s going to the range without any warm up in the gym or spending 30 minutes in the gym and then rolling to the first tee. It’s probably 50-50 on what I’d rather do, because I feel so good warming up and activating the muscles that I need to swing well, when I get to the range in the tournament I feel good right away, versus, say, your junior golfer, you’re a weekend four, you just roll up, you’re like the first couple swings kind of sucks, my body is hurting, and just doing small stuff really helps. I travel with bands and I put my bands in my golf bag when I’m playing for fun with buddies, just because, even if I don’t have time to do some fitness stuff before, I can do some small stuff to make my body feel more stable, more flexible and swing the ball better.

0:51:35 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it makes a huge difference Just getting everything activated, getting it loose and ready to go. All right, man, before we wrap it up, I got a couple questions that we’d like to ask everybody that comes on the show. I might throw an extra one in for you that I didn’t prep you with, but first of all, are you more of a caddy shack or happy go more guy?

0:51:54 – Dylan Wu
Definitely more of a caddy shack. Now, the funny thing with my brother he’s never seen oh, he saw happy go more, but until this year he’d never watched caddy shack. He thought the greatest golf, the greatest game ever played, was the best golf movie. I’m like what are you talking about? That’s like the worst one. I’m like geez, dude, get us together.

0:52:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Little brothers, come on. All right, what would your walkup song be if you could pick a walkup song to the first T-Box?

0:52:21 – Dylan Wu
So when we played the Zura classic with my buddy, justin Bull’s entrance song, sirens, which was really cool, but I think my personal walkup song, I think growing up my favorite song, like in high school, is Hall of Fame by Script pretty cool one, or I just I just feel like it was pretty amped. Another one that we loved for hockey was Lose Yourself by Eminem. Yep, it was a classic but probably Script of Hall of Fame.

0:52:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right. Is there a book that you’d like to recommend to people that has meant something to you, or that you’ve read multiple times, or you’ve gotten something out of that you’d like to share with people? It doesn’t have to be a golf book. It could be really add to anything, it’s got to be.

0:53:08 – Dylan Wu
Some of the I think it’s Golf’s not a game of perfect Some of that golf stuff books I read my dad I learned golf basically the same time I was learning, but I just love learning about the mental side of the game. Just read so much like books like that and every shot is a purpose and Zen golf they’re just like so important to my success just how to properly think. There’s definitely some other books that I’ve read that are better for my entire outlook on life I just can’t think of right now. My wife’s a big reader, so it’s more of her recommendations that I read. But yeah, I think, yeah, that’s probably the best one.

0:53:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, if you could pick a celebrity foursome to play with. You get to spend four or five hours with whoever you want past, present, whoever who you’re playing with.

0:54:10 – Dylan Wu
I mean got a first one, but Tiger I think I just put one golfer in it, but Tiger’s just so instrumental to any professional golfer who’s played in the last I don’t know 10, 15 years. He’s the reason I wanted to play golf and he’s the reason why we get to play golf for a living, for more money nowadays. I definitely want to put a football player in there. I feel like I would want to play with Patrick from the Homes, just because it seems like a good vibe. I loved watching the Netflix show with him in it. Quarterback seems like it was just a good, just all around good dude. Steph Curry I want to play with because he’s a good golfer. Yeah, and he’s unreal. I mean, he’s the best shooter of all time. And I’m trying to think of a fourth celebrity, I think another celebrity probably. This is pretty selfish of me. My crush growing up was Blake Lively. She probably doesn’t play golf, but I’ll probably throw her in there and he probably want to throw a girl in there.

0:55:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Nice, I love it.

0:55:15 – Dylan Wu
Pretty unique force up there. That’s pretty weird one.

0:55:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, yeah, Pretty good, though. Pretty good, All right. Now I know you guys don’t get to go and travel to play. You know some of the bucket list places that a lot of you know the recreational golfers do, because you guys are always traveling to play golf for your job. Is there any place that, if we said, Dylan, we’ve got the 18STRONG jet, we’ve got it fueled up, we’re picking you up, we’re going, we have access anywhere. Where are you going?

0:55:41 – Dylan Wu
Place I’ve never played. I mean, I have never played in the Masters in Augusta, but I think I’m going to wait until I make it, hopefully in the near future. But I would love to play, probably Pine Valley, that’s supposed to be the best one. But I also want to go play golf overseas, like right now they’re playing golf in Australia. I’m looking. As long as my year goes well, next year I’m probably going to try to go play Australian Open next year. I mean, playing in the sand belt just sounds awesome, just looks so pure, firm and fast. Fans look awesome. But no, I’ve been lucky enough to play a lot of the best courses in the world. My favorite course I’ve ever played right now is Cypress Point. I love Pebble and Monterey so much. That’s just the best area in the world for golf. Just the views are unreal and it’s like nice sweater weather usually and it’s just such fun golf.

0:56:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right. So the question that I don’t ask everybody, but I know that you’re a True Links wear guy and we’re big True Links wear fans here at 18STRONG. What’s your favorite on and, off course, true Links wear shoes.

0:56:53 – Dylan Wu
Yeah, so funny story of True Links how I got into it. Middle of COVID or the summer after COVID of 2020, I was playing on the corn. Very we’re in Omaha by now, wife. It’s like you need some new shoes, just casual shoes. We’re just at a shopping mall in Omaha. I’m just trying on some shoes and I’m like, oh, looking at these knits, and I’m like these are kind of cool. And I get two of them and I’m checking out. I think I’m wearing golf clothes and they’re like these are golf shoes and I’m like what? Oh, like it’s a golf shoe company that makes this. And after buying it, I’m like doing research. I’m like I’m from Oregon, this is from the Pacific Northwest. Like how have I not even heard of this? So, literally after that, I remember reaching out to True Links after that and be like that try wearing your shoes. And it was a little different first, because I was wearing Nike shoes but I had some feet problems where, like the feet were too tight, I was getting like blisters a little bit and I was like I’ll try these shoes and I love them. But they didn’t have any spikes and I was like I was going to be an issue in the beginning but I’m like after one day with them they were awesome and I mean they’re made in Seattle Washington. They were rains like more than any other place. I’m not going to slip on the golf course. These shoes are probably waterproof. They’re probably good in the rain because they’re made there.

My favorite off the course shoe it’s probably the knit. It’s like the knit threes Like I literally have every color and I travel with two or three of them I just wear. They’re perfect. I can wear them off the golf course. They look good for dinners where I’m wearing them in casual or something nice. I don’t mind using the ripstop sometimes. If I’m back home they’re pretty good. But my go-to shoe golf shoe is the Lex Tor. It’s last year’s model. That’s when I’ve been wearing a lot and the one I’ve actually been wearing the last couple of weeks. It’s like the dead golf or knit one knit hybrid, which is really cool actually, but truly it’s been great to me.

I love those guys. The guys Jeremy Moore and Jason and Ryan all the more brothers that got a found. It are great. Jason runs true. Jeremy’s now my agent because of true Really. And then I get to play golf with Ryan. I mean, he’s an unreal golfer and from the Pacific Northwest, but it all happened from me as my wife telling me to go buy some shoes just casual shoes in Omaha. So that was three and a half years from now ago and I love wearing them. I mean, I sent truths to all my friends. I got married last year For all my grows and we got custom true shoes. They’re great, that’s awesome. They’re awesome.

0:59:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, those guys are great. We’ve had Jason on the show a while back and they’ve always been great to us. And I mean we’ve got a bunch of guys here in St Louis now rocking. You know, like we’re in the Midwest, nobody knows what true links wear is, except when you come around, our group of guys playing golf, so really cool. I got one last question for you what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever personally been given?

1:00:17 – Dylan Wu
I don’t think it’s necessarily golf advice, but for me and my golf career it’s like the quote I don’t know who said it, but hard work beats talent. What talent doesn’t work hard? I think it’s from MJ. I don’t know if Michael Jordan said that or Kevin Durant, but it’s a quote that I think really speaks to me.

It’s like you just gotta work hard and go get after it. Like a lot of things in life won’t be given to you right away. You gotta go work hard for it. And sometimes, when you take things for granted, that’s when things go downhill. So, honestly, being really humble and just working at it and just kind of keeping your head down, like I tell myself like and tell people like if I can just keep my head down and I look up and I’m like 50 years old and I’ve still been playing on the PGA Tour, then I’ve made it Like just work hard Cause then you have no regrets. It’s like on the golf course, like I can keep my head down for all 72 holes, no matter if I had bad shots or make mistakes. Like I know I’m leaving the golf course, leaving it all out there, playing my best, and that’s all you can ask for.

1:01:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Such great advice. Dylan, I can’t thank you enough for coming on. Man, this was a lot of fun getting to know you, getting to hear a little bit more about your story and the whole 18STRONG crew. We’re gonna be pulling for you next year, in 2024.

1:01:42 – Dylan Wu
No, I appreciate it, guys. Thanks for having me.

1:01:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and if you found this episode helpful, don’t forget to share with your friends. And, of course, go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. Thanks again. We’ll catch up with you next week. Straight hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Transcribed by https://podium.page

Guest: Eric Schaetty (Schaetty Strength & Fitness)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 359
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Welcome to another exciting installment of the 18STRONG Podcast, where we have the pleasure of hosting our good friend Eric Schaettyy from Schaettyy Strength and Fitness. Tune in as we navigate Eric’s remarkable journey from a 12 handicap to a 4.9 handicap golfer within a year, highlighting his background in the fitness industry and his unique training approach tailored for golfers. Discover how his passion for fitness and golf influenced his professional world and led him to work with more golfers.

Get ready to immerse yourself in a discussion about the intersection of golf, fitness, and sobriety. Eric shares how golf has become a therapeutic outlet for one participant who has been sober for 12 years. We also stress the power of consistency in achieving fitness goals and highlight the strong friendships formed within our community. Later, we explore the significance of strength and balance training in golf, and how these elements enhance the overall movement in the swing.

Listen as we break down the benefits of walking and consistency in fitness routines, sharing personal experiences of how simple practices like walking have yielded better results than intense workouts. We share our thoughts on starting small and gradually increasing intensity, as well as the benefits of strength training for overall health and injury prevention. Finally, Eric reveals his bucket list course, Riviera, and recommends following Barbell Medicine on social media. Get inspired as Eric encourages us to start today, emphasizing the importance of seizing the moment rather than waiting for a “do-over” in life. This episode is packed with valuable insights that every golfer, fitness enthusiast, or anyone looking to improve their physical and mental well-being shouldn’t miss!

(00:03) Golf Transformation and Fitness Journey

Eric Schaetty’s golf journey from 12 to 4.9 handicap, consistency in fitness and golf, adapting training for golfers, and understanding tendencies on the course.

(10:50) Training and Background in Sports

Equipment and athletic background shape a golfer’s swing and success, as seen through a guest’s experience with a stiffer shaft and background in hockey and martial arts.

(19:38) CrossFit, Strength Training, and Fitness Goals

Fitness and golf are discussed, emphasizing individual goals and incorporating weightlifting for strength and fat loss.

(32:08) Balance and Strength in Golf Training

Vertical jumping, lateral rotation, and balance training are crucial for golf fitness and building relationships through the sport.

(37:22) The Benefits of Golf in Sobriety

Golf, fitness, and sobriety intersect in our community, emphasizing consistency, strong friendships, and the power of walking for physical and mental well-being.

(40:16) The Power of Consistency and Walking

Nature’s benefits of walking and consistency in fitness routines, starting small and incorporating strength training for long-term health.

(47:55) Start Today

Fitness and golf expert Eric Schaettyy shares his journey, training program, and love for Caddyshack and recommends Barbell Medicine.

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18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 359 with Eric Schaetty from Schaetty Strength and Fitness. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe everyone deserves to play better, longer. This week is an exciting one for me. I have a really good friend of mine, eric Schaetty from Schaetty Strength and Fitness, on the show. Eric is one of my really good friends. We play a lot of golf together. We actually work together. He actually works outside of this facility with me, and we get to talk to Eric about his golf transformation.

Not only his golf transformation, but Eric has an extensive background in the strength and fitness and conditioning world as well, and so we’re talking a lot about both his journey as a golfer and his fitness journey, but also how he has then taken that into his professional world and what he’s doing now, working with a lot more golfers compared to his initial start in the fitness industry, which really began with him working in martial arts and crossfit and a lot of traditional weightlifting. So today’s episode is great because we’re talking about not just different training styles, but we’re talking about what Eric did himself to go from a 12th handicap last year at about the same time, down to a 4.9 handicap, and it involved much less in regards to practice and technique than you would likely think. And so we dive really deep into what he did, how his workouts impacted that, but ultimately, from a golf standpoint, what he did. Then we discuss different training styles and how he’s kind of changed his tactics from his initial start to now working with golfers and how that impacts what you do yourself in the gym. And what’s really neat is that we talk about how, if you’re somebody who’s just kind of getting started again or getting back into the gym, how you’re going to benefit so much more than somebody that’s been working out for a long period of time. So if you’re nervous about doing that, we talk about why it’s so important that you just get started. And then, lastly, we talk about the importance of consistency over everything and how being consistent with the goal is naturally just going to produce the results. But oftentimes we don’t dive into being consistent. We rely more on our motivation, which can wane, and ultimately that can lead to failure in your goals, failure in your training program, failure in your golf practice. Whatever goal you have, you have to be consistent in the process to achieve the goal. So you’re going to really enjoy this episode with, as we call them, buddy E.

Right after this, our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach, there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strongcom slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strongcom, slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off.

Now let’s get to this week’s interview Eric Schaetty, buddy E. Welcome to the 18STRONG podcast. How are we doing? Good to be here, glad to be here, great to be here, great to finally have you. This is cool.

So this is episode 356.

For those of you that watched it or listened to it, we had our buddy, bobby Drummond, on in our first GoForge Yourself episode.

This episode, I think, is going to be a little bit of a hybrid. You haven’t gone through the forge or anything, but I want to kind of tell your story, but your expertise is also in the fitness industry many, many years 15 plus years in the fitness industry. We work together on a daily basis. We’re running these in this podcast office Unbelievable. But you are also part of the 18STRONG crew and one of the most golf obsessed people that I’ve ever met in my life but have made a huge transformation in your golf game over the past year and then in your fitness over the past couple of decades. So we’re going to talk about all of that. So again, welcome, and I’m excited to dig in this. Finally, glad to be here. This is made it to the show. So tell the folks listening at home, the crew, a little bit, just about your golf journey just this last year, just because I think we’ll start there and then we’ll dive in everything.

0:04:45 – Eric Schaetty
It kind of started more. We was in the pit here and I was all winter banging balls in the pit, hitting, hitting, hitting, trying to shallow the club, shallow the club it’s all you hear. Now that’s the craze. I was like just trying to like make the perfect swing, record my videos over and over and over and was really trying to get after that and was really like just trying to develop a good swing, finally developed some elbow tendonitis and my elbows were bothering me. But I play hockey too. So I was thinking maybe is it from hockey, Is it from a wall to my hockey stick.

I really didn’t know what was going on so I was like, all right, well, spring comes along, we’ll get out of the pit, we’ll go start playing some golf. I joined a club, pretty much playing every day I would say Almost. I was so happy. My wife can find out for that. Yeah, so can my kids.

But just started going and just playing golf, got out of the pit and went and just started playing golf, finding out what my misses were, what my yardages were, and just started to kind of get around the course instead of being in a pit and not really seeing where the ball was going or anything like that. So it started out with just all right, what are your misses, what are your tendencies, what am I doing wrong? And it started from the tee and then worked my way towards the green. So it was like all right, what do I do with my drive? Started with that and then started kind of chipping away. All right, let’s get closer. What are my yardages for all my clubs carry. And then from a hundred yards in, that’s where, like right now, I’m truly trying to like the bread and butter of the game is from a hundred yards in.

I think it was. It was a Gary player said he gets like a 15. Any cap led him hit a tee shot and will be a three tomorrow if he plays the rest of the shots. So kind of took that and just played all summer and went from probably a 12 last year to now about 40 at 4.9, which I’m not sure I could this morning 4.9.

0:06:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I think you know, as an outsider kind of looking in on this, I was able to. You know we were here. We’re banging balls together and talking, swing and, and you know, doing all this in the gym here. But it feels to me like one of the turning points was you booked a lesson with our buddy, casey, who, casey Cox, has been on the show as well and I’ll let you tell the story. But it almost and kudos to Casey Casey was almost like dude, yeah, like you don’t need, you don’t need a bunch of lessons.

0:07:26 – Eric Schaetty
So Casey, great, great coach, great instructor, I mean, he is literally like, he makes you feel so comfortable, Like as soon as the lesson starts you want to say a word, you just you just start hitting balls and he doesn’t. He just sits there, it’s got his thing going and got you all hooked up. He’s banging balls, banging balls. I’m hitting balls and he, all of a sudden he goes hold on. He’s like why, why are you here? He’s like what, what are you doing? He goes you hit the ball.

As far as I do, your path looks fine. There’s something like crazy going on. He’s like what are you here? So, and that’s why I was like well, listen, my driver distance does not correlate to my irons. I’m hitting my iron. You know my. You know seven iron, 165 carry. Why am I not hitting my driver 275 yards?

I see guys hitting 165 for their seven iron. They’re blasting their driver and I’m only carrying mine 225 yards. So he’s like all right, we’ll get your driver out. So we hit a few. He’s like all right, all right. He’s like he grabs the club. He goes give me that. Looks at it for a second. He’s like you’re playing with an old man shaft. He’s like and this head is doing you no justice. He’s like you need to get a different driver shaft, you need a different head and I think that’ll help your driver. So it was like okay. So then Andrew, our other friend, he he’s like well, I got an extra driver. If you want to buy it off me, it’s stiff shaft title list. You want to give it a try? And then, kind of after that, I was like all she wrote. Yeah, I was all she wrote. So the driver got dialed in and then it was like let’s just take those next steps.

0:09:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, for those of you that aren’t watching, and even those of you that are watching, give me, give me the dimensions. How tall, how heavy are you?

0:09:13 – Eric Schaetty
I am about 55 and a half and 135 hundred and 40 pounds on a good day, and that’s on a good day and in our group so we you know mandatory golf Friday.

0:09:24 – Jeff Pelizzaro
We’ve had our trips down in Nashville.

We play with a wide array of guys, a lot of different levels of golf, and I mean I’d say you’re in the top three or four guys as far as distances, and that includes, you know, a couple former professional guys that that we play with. Yeah, so did you see, and I’m one of the reasons that I love having you on here is because you’ve done what so many of the listeners and all of us have really want to do. Right, like we all say, we want to get faster, we all say we want to do all these things, but ultimately we want to score better, we want to play better, and we want to do that having fun with the game too, and go from a 12 down to below a five handicap, right. So over the course of this last year, when you first switched out that driver I know you immediately liked it Did you see, over the course of a year, just your distance just kind of slowly get longer and longer because you got more comfortable? Was it a confidence thing in your swing? What was the change there?

0:10:17 – Eric Schaetty
It was, it was really honestly, it was a confidence. And then the feel, like the feel of the club and knowing that like if I transfer my weight, this club is not going to be whipping around and doing crazy things, and because I could feel with my other club like I would have it in my backswing and I would go to transition and it would literally feel like I had a noodle in my hands. I just did. I was yeah, I did and I just had no confidence to transfer and get to my left side and get turned over and transfer all that weight. I was just so just scared to do it.

So once I got that stiffer shaft the better than different driver it was like all right, just swing, just swing. You know that you can swing fast enough, just swing the club. So there’s more or less like all right, you got the right equipment. That’s partially sometimes issues. I was like you just don’t have the right equipment. Yes, I had no idea that I was playing with the wrong equipment. So I think it was more confidence and knowing that my body can just go and you don’t really have to think about it.

0:11:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about your background in sports because, you know, obviously training is what you do on a daily basis. I see what you do in the gym for yourself, I see what you do with your clientele and you start even working with a lot more golfers too. So I want to kind of talk about a little the transition of maybe how you are training them a little differently than some of the other folks you have in the past. But your background, you know, is in hockey, some martial arts, and when I watch you swing a golf club it’s a super smooth, almost feels a little effortless kind of swing. It doesn’t look like you’re trying to swing out of your shoes. But I mean your smash factor has to be so good because of the distance and we were talking the other day swing speed wise.

0:12:03 – Eric Schaetty
I mean it’s not crazy speed either, right, no, no, what your speed is Go no off the top of my head, but I would say probably 105 somewhere in there, 105, 110. Yeah, you know I’m worried if you’re really getting after probably yeah, nothing wild, yeah, and I’m not swinging like a Torpro or anything wild like that, but yeah, it’s probably around 105 to 110.

0:12:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So your background in those sports and I’m really curious to. We’ve talked a lot about hockey players on here but I’m even curious about, like, the Muay Thai and kickboxing and like I would imagine that that that quick hips, you know hip driven stuff, that makes a big difference.

0:12:42 – Eric Schaetty
I was thinking about that and I was like you know, the crazy thing is that you talk about the hockey and that I’m a left handed hockey player. The only thing I do, left handed, as I shoot a hockey stick the opposite direction that I swing a golf club. So it’s like that. You know people would think, oh, I will, you do. You’re swinging the opposite direction of your golf club. So I was like you know what? What is it that made my golf swing so much different than any anybody else’s or the guys would play with? And then I thought about it. There are so many leg kicks that I have thrown, or punches that where you have to rotating your hips and it’s fast, it’s over and over and over and over. Throwing leg kicks over and over and over. And I think it has a lot to do with throwing the leg kicks, throwing the punches that you’re, you’re jittering that hip, that torque and all of that speed and through your hips and through your legs.

0:13:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I would imagine that really never really thought about it this way. But of all sports, something like that where you’re striking on a continuous basis, you know, when you’re you’re training, you might not be going boom, boom, boom, you know, but you’re, you’re striking, relax striking. That’s a little bit more like the golf swing compared to almost any other sport In movie tie.

0:14:02 – Eric Schaetty
They actually like you’re not. It’s not like kickboxing, and in that kickboxing you know it’s a lot of volume throw kicks and you want to throw them hard. In movie tie you are hitting to hurt. Like you throw a leg kick, you’re trying to chop their leg down, like that is literally what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to kick their leg as hard as you possibly can. So I think there’s a lot of that like transfer. It’s like, well, as soon as you get that pattern laid down, it is almost effortless. When you throw a leg kick it’s, you don’t even think about it. I mean, there’s some great MMA fighters. There was an interview I saw the other day. It was a Pereira, this guy who just fought and he was messing around Daniel Cormier and he goes all right and Cormier goes. He was Brazilian guy goes, throw 30%, 30% and he literally just barely tapped him and it looked like Cormier was going to fall over. And so it is. There is that transfer, but it’s a forceful power transfer?

0:14:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Do you think that that plays into? You know, talking about kids growing up and playing and we talk about speed all the time now, but kind of talking about the way that Jack Nicholas talked about this getting kids to just swing as fast as they can in order to gain speed early, because that that, Like you said, the pattern gets ingrained, the muscle memory gets ingrained.

0:15:19 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, absolutely, and it’s you need to. When you’re young, when you’re a kid, there is no fear, and when we get older, it’s like I don’t know what’s going to happen in my back. I’m like I’m throwing my shoulder out and you know like you’re so worried about how hard you’re going to swing because you might hurt yourself. So I think a lot of it when you’re a kid, you know just as well as I do, like our kids are fearless. They do not, they will do anything. So I think, as when you’re really young and you get them into something, just let them start to say sweet spashes, you can’t go ahead. I mean because the odds of them getting hurt, I mean, are fairly low. We just swing your golf club, right?

0:15:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And, I think, repercussion wise, on the golf course they don’t care as much either. Right? So they’re losing dad’s golf balls, they’re not losing their own golf, they’re not typing their gin hand out. Yeah, so let’s talk a little bit about your world of fitness. What? What got you really involved in the training side of things? When did you start with the martial arts? Did you do that as a little kid or was that something? No?

0:16:17 – Eric Schaetty
So growing up it was just hockey. I mean I did you know COIC, soccer and all that growing up, but it was mainly hockey, did a little bit of D2 club hockey in college Really was just hockey I did. I really didn’t lift weights in high school. We didn’t have like a like you know, these kids nowadays you have like an after school training program. You’re going oh, why is conditioning Isn’t that? We had none of that. I mean, it was basically you were on the ice and that was it. I didn’t touch weights. I mean. Besides, you know curls in your basement, you know, get started under the bar. Yeah, the, the, the sit around, double. It’s like it really was just that.

And then basically it was in my around 2007, when I was out of college 2008, a friend of mine who worked in the bar industry with me. He was a trainer at club fitness and the old Rock Hill location, which is like a gymnastics place now, and I was just one in there one day and he kind of showed me a few things and I was like I just want to start lifting weights I’m not trying to and it was kind of the time I was getting into the martial arts a little bit and I was just like I need to learn how to lift weights, can you help me? And he helped me a little bit and through the course of like that year, I like just transformed myself. I transformed my body. Um, it was kind of like wow, this is, this is cool. Like I feel great, Like I love the way I feel, I love what I’m doing for myself, like I was like this is really uplifting.

And then me, at the time I was working in bars, I was like so that same guy. I went to him one day. I was like, hey, how, how do we get a job doing this? Like I love the way I’m done this for other people. Where do I start? Like. And he was like all right, well, we’ll get you signed up or whatever. And we, you know, you got to get this certification or that certification. So I went and got to do NASM and a little trial period. But it was literally I was basically walking in the door talking to an old friend and just kind of like you know, dove in head first, yeah.

0:18:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And you I mean you made a pretty significant transformation in your body, in your fitness, your lifestyle, you know so. You’ve done all of that. What was your journey then into the training side? I know you worked in CrossFit. Do you weight lift? You know weight lifting certifications. What was the journey then, kind of you know, up until where we are now?

0:18:29 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah. So when I was a little lot younger I mean, I was not even like towards the beginning of my training side, my training career I was still like even when I was doing martial arts, like some of that, I would go out after practice and I was still smoking cigarettes. I was like I’m drinking beers, like I was not the fast food, just not the bastion of health. So once I got into the training side of it, I’m like all right, this doesn’t correlate with my image. I can’t walk in smelling like cigarettes, I can’t you know be eating fast food and whatnot. And it was like, all right, well, the Muay Thai, that training was over and I was like I need something more competitive. Like I’m really ultra competitive, I’m over competitive. So I’m like what can I do? And that’s when I found CrossFit a buddy of mine, it was the old CrossFit St Louis when I was over in a hand-lead industrial. It was like a swag when they say a box. Yeah, it was literally. It was a pull-up bar, some weights and that was it right. So I got into that. That’s super competitive. With it, you know, I got my first muscle of them. I was after that like it kind of took off and that was like all right, I really love this.

I did CrossFit for a long time. I did CrossFit for five or six years something like that you ever take and I got ultra obsessed, started coaching it like was studying USA weightlifting certifications and just like was really like just engulfed in CrossFit. And I will say, like CrossFit, that’s the one thing CrossFit has done is A, is or two things actually. Community, yeah, totally Like you cannot put their community up against well, maybe ours, but you can’t really put it up against any other like community out there. Like they are so close, they’re so tight. And two, what it’s done for just fitness and weightlifting in general. You can go drive down the street now and buy barbells, yeah, and buy weights and buy plates.

Without CrossFit, none of that is possible. You wouldn’t have show me weights. You wouldn’t have a lot of these different places where, like, you can just walk down the street and like I’m going to go squat today and I’m going to go drop in while I’m out of town. I’m done that. I’m going to Florida and be like, hey, do you guys mind if I just, you know, back over in the corner and squat.

So you know, got to CrossFit, you know, got into these different certifications and just like, basically the CrossFit helped me a lot with the CrossFit, with like learning all the basic foundational lifts and all that, and then some of the other certifications are great, but it’s the experience I’ve acquired over the 15 years and it’s like I’ve just learned so much over the past 15 years as far as just in the gym experience and then just kind of like all right, what actually does work? What actually you know what anecdotal stuff actually works? So it really wasn’t. Oh well, you know I’m done with CrossFit. It was more like all right, let’s dive into the strength side of this a little bit more. And that’s when I kind of got into the strength side of it. That’s where I’ve been at kind of ever since, you know strength side and then kind of getting away from the hard cardio and diving back into the golf world.

0:21:39 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah. So you and I have been working together on a year and a half year, something over two years, over two years now. So one of the things that I noticed because we didn’t know each other at all before then was just the way that you train with your clients. You know a lot of barbell stuff, a lot of strength related stuff and, obviously, small gym. We listen to each other’s conversations, how we talk to our clients, and I really like the way that you explain to your clients. You know why you’re doing this.

You’re really big on teaching them accountability, on learning their lifts themselves and being able to do this stuff on their own right, and so I want to kind of go into some tactics on different goals that I think a lot of the crew has, because with golf it’s different than any other sport, because we could have somebody listen to the show that’s an 18 year old male or female, we could have somebody that’s a 75 year old male or female, and all of them want to get better at golf and if they’re listening to this show, they want to figure out what’s the right thing for them to do body wise, fitness wise. But, as I know that you have told so many of your clients, you have to really focus in on. What’s the main thing that you want to focus on, right? Is it your strength? Is it your fat boss? Is it you want to just move better, to swing the golf club better? Is it you want a better golf swing?

All of those different pieces are different. What would you say are some of them? And we’ll just kind of talk big rock things regarding the differences between if you want to get strong, if you want to lose some weight, and maybe the third one, if you want to just get moving better. What are some of the things that you would say like, hey, for strength, you got to do this, fat loss, you got to do this. There’s a lot of variables, yeah, yeah.

0:23:27 – Eric Schaetty
The majority of people, though I think that a lot of times a everybody is terrified to a lift weights, to go into a gym to do any of that stuff. So, first off, that you know, reassuring people that the rate of injury for weightlifting is that of non contact sports you can get hurt just as much swimming as you can, lifting weight and like. So that’s the first thing I would say to people is, like, listen, you’re not going to get hurt doing this, Just commit to it. And then most of the people that are listening are probably I’m just assuming most are not lifting weights yet, right? So most of them are going to get the best of both worlds You’re going to get stronger and you’re going to build muscle at the same time. Right? You don’t need, you, don’t? You don’t have to pick and choose which one you want to do, Because once you get more trained as you well know, is that you have to pick one another.

All right, am I going to get stronger or am I going to build muscle? That’s your point. So I would say, for the strength side of it is that I would start with just basic things as far as just picking something up off the ground, some type of hip hinge, some type of squatting and it doesn’t even have to be squatting If you would rather do a leg press because you feel more comfortable doing a leg press start with that for strength. The thing is is that strength? The definition of strength would be for your bodies to contract against an outside resistance. It doesn’t matter what it is to start, just put something in your hands, get a bar on your back if you want, but it doesn’t have to be anything like you see on TV or you hear about. So, as far as strength goes, just start doing something that’s going to put your body against an outside resistance.

0:25:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What are a couple of things you mentioned leg press or squatting and hinging. I mean, are those the big ones for you?

0:25:19 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, most of my training and the most of the way I do train people, is that there’s always the three main lifts. You’re going to do something like a hip hinge. You’ll do something about squatting, whether it’s split squat or something like that and then you’ll do something like a horizontal or vertical pressing based on their limitations. A lot of people struggle with overhead pressing or an overhead press, so you can always modify those things, but you just start with those things foundationally and then find out what drives a person, because the results, the success of a program, is 100% adherence. If you’re not going to adhere to the program, you’re not going to have success. So, find something that you want to do. If somebody says to me hey, eric, yeah, squatting is cool and all, but I want huge arms, cool, I’m going to sprinkle on some arm stuff. Or you can sprinkle them for yourself, if you wanted to sprinkle on some arm stuff, or you want to do all of my back to get bigger, and you can do that. You know, sprinkle on things that you enjoy, because if you don’t enjoy those things, you’re not going to adhere to it. You’re not going to adhere to it.

Fat loss Fat loss is dependent on, you know, changing your metabolism right, the way you change your metabolism change your body composition. If you build muscle, you’re going to change your body composition. So, just starting out with just some strength training builds muscle, which changes your metabolism, and you’re already ahead of the curve because you’ve already killed two birds with one stone. You’ve built some muscle. Now you’ve changed your metabolism. Well, guess what? If you’re changing nothing else, you’re going to change how you look, yeah, and you’re going to burn some fat, yeah.

0:26:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And the mean time, more muscle means more, more burning of calories, which means, you know, a bit in calorie deficit, or you know. And then obviously the there’s the food component to to the fat loss, right, but Jeff is, it is a is a chat that we have in this gym many, many times and ultimately, you know, once you get past that the initial phase where just strength training is is doing the trick, then you have to start to dial that in.

0:27:26 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of times people get very, I think, over the, you know, I would say, the past few decades there’s a lot of like earmongering of you can’t have this, or you can’t have that, this diet’s the best, or this diet’s the best or no, no, no, don’t touch that. Or you know, and people just like, literally, if you went through all the things people tell you you can’t have, you would almost have an empty plate. If you like, oh, there’s pesticides on those leaves. Or don’t drink that soda because that has aspartame, or, like you would literally be able to eat that tomato because it’s got yeah you’d be drinking water and that is it.

So the nutrition side of it would be pick something that you want to do, because all diets have one common factor and that’s a caloric deficit Yep. So if you want to do intermittent fasting, cool. If you want to do the keto diet, cool. If you want to do high carb, low fat, that’s fine as well. Just start picking one thing and work on that.

I’m going to eat better for breakfast, I’m going to wake up every day and I’m going to have enough protein to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, which is the process of building muscle. So start with that and then just start small goals and just work your way up the ladder instead of like all right, here we go. First of the year, I’m doing it at all Right, and before you know it, like two weeks down the road, you’re like all right, that didn’t go too well, what am I supposed to do next? So I think it’s nutrition is a lot about small goals. Work on one thing at a time after you have the you know, the strength side dialed in and just little building blocks along the way.

0:29:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I want to take just a second to thank our new partner, which I’m really excited to announce is 1st Phorm. 1st Phorm is a company that is here in St Louis, based in St Louis. It’s a nutritional company that is doing incredible things in the world of nutrition and one of the reasons that we decided to partner with 1st Phorm is obviously we’re very impressed with their dedication to their products and the quality of their products. But really it’s the dedication to them, them helping their customers get real results, aside from just the products. We got a chance to go and actually visit the facility again here in St Louis and really walk the halls of the corporate offices. But we got to see the manufacturing plan or the warehouse. And it’s not just a place where they’re packaging supplements and shipping them out. It’s a culture, it’s a community and you can see that amongst the employees. You can see that their culture and their core values that are not just pieces of art on their wall. They’re actually living them there and they’re helping to expand those into the community and really that’s why we partner with 1st Phorm. Obviously, their products are incredible. Otherwise we wouldn’t suggest them either. We use them on a regular basis. So you’re going to be hearing a lot more about their products and what they can do for your fitness, what they can do for your golf game the protein powders, the multivitamins, the protein sticks, the hydration packets All of those products we’re going to highlight in future episodes.

But we just wanted to really celebrate our new partnership with 1st Phorm. Bring your other website, 1stphorm.com/18strong, forward slash 18STRONG and we’re going to be doing a giveaway every single month with anybody that buys through that link. So go to 1stphorm.com/18strong that’s P-H-O-R-Mcom. Forward slash 18STRONG. That’ll take you directly to their website and you can check their whole suite of products, including some of their fitness apparel and anything that is purchased over there. You’re going to be enrolled into our list for our giveaway. I know that you just recently have started working with a lot more golfers, a lot of people from your club, which is really cool. When you’re now taking a lot of your traditional training style and you’ve been doing this for yourself too, working in some things for your own golf game. Have you changed anything specifically in the way that you’re training them or in the way that you’re training also for the golf purposes?

0:31:24 – Eric Schaetty
Yes. So as far as the training goes, so foundationally and I’ve noticed this is that strength is a vital component of the golf swing in you and it doesn’t have to be the sense that people think they need a strong squat, they need to put 315 on the bar and be squatting 315 for multiple reps. No, you don’t. If you come in and say, alright, I was squatting my body weight three months ago, now I’m squatting a kettlebell that weighs 53 pounds, guess what you’ve gotten strong. Yes, and that is going to correlate over to Training. So I don’t necessarily have to do barbells with them, I don’t. I just try to get them to do some type of squat, hinge press. We’re just gonna get them a little bit stronger and then we’re throwing in.

I’m trying to and I’m doing a little more research with this is that you see a lot of correlation to Vertical jumping, height, how high somebody can jump, or the vertical force and a golf swing. You also see a lot of lateral rotation, static positions, things like that. So I do like to sprinkle in some lateral rotation stuff. I like to focus on, you know, slamming whether it’s side slam, whether it’s an overhead slam, rotations, front leg, and then the really the big thing that I am new to, especially with my clients that I’ve taken from the club, is balance.

A lot of them just don’t Understand how to transfer from the right side to the left side or a left and a golf, yet left to right. Is that a lot more balanced stuff? Transferring one leg, being on one leg, focusing on finding your balance in your feet and then being able to transfer from one side of the other so it’s still the foundations of strength. But then you’re throwing in a little snippets of like alright, we’re on balance today and you we’re gonna work on your. You know your vertical, your vertical jump or and when I say vertical Jump it doesn’t mean that I know how I’m doing like crazy box jump, right, I think. But just get them to a move faster and Be get them to move a little more powerfully, yep, so I think I’ve incorporated a lot more of that into the golfer side of it. Worse, most of my other clients were really not like I’m not gonna do a lot of that stuff with right, a little more traditional, with strength stuff.

0:33:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, what I found with the you know, the balance stuff. I mean initially, when somebody says balance, they think, oh, standing on one leg, those. But it’s more than that. And I find that a lot of golfers feel like they’re not flexible enough to get into whatever position. But a lot of times it’s it’s more their balance, like they just don’t know how to hold a position or the body hasn’t been there. And so once you start to put them in these different situations when you’ve got them in a split stance and then they’re throwing a ball or they’re rotating with a cable, they’re like, oh, they’re a little unsteady. But as they do that week after week, then it’s like, oh, I can actually move better through my motion. It’s not because you do a bunch of stretches and you do. You know a lot of these long duration holds where or you’re working on getting them all the way into the backswing or position holds. It’s no, you’re just more balanced and you’re comfortable and you’re understanding what your body needs to do in a swing.

0:34:27 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, and that was another, as he was Lee Trevino. Remember watching the video about having. He said you could take you know he lives at the driving range and looked at the range. He said take all these golfers, I could work on their swing right now, we could do all these things to it. He goes, they’re gonna show back up tomorrow and they’re gonna do the same thing they were doing before I said anything.

So a lot of these people like I’m not, I’m not trying to change your swing, I’m just trying to get them to understand. Like, listen, when you get here, this is when this goes. Like I had said something to John sharing the other day. I was like you do you understand? Like, before you start the downswing, your body’s actually moving in the opposite direction. And they’re like what, wait a minute, with what do you mean? Like your body’s moving in two different directions at one point and died. So it’s things like that, like you said, getting to understand that your body’s gonna be moving in two different directions and you’re gonna have to find that balance in between those two.

0:35:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, this is mentioned. John and Sharon. It’s kind of cool to see that you have people from your club. You mentioned it. Randy is yeah, randy Ray, one of the first clients that came over from the club. Tell the story. Oh yeah, randy’s all the client.

0:35:32 – Eric Schaetty
So I ended up in the club championship this year first round. I just got back from Florida. The first round went well. You know, knock the guy out in the 19th hole in the first round. So the second round had a play Randy. Nobody really knew it. It’s not like we had him bar fight.

0:35:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What’s about the guy on the night?

0:35:51 – Eric Schaetty
The guy out. Yeah, you know I got a little iffy out there, but uh, but yeah. So I beat Tony in the first round. So I had Randy. Nobody knew anything about Randy either. So you know, these guys like, oh my god, randy’s such a nice guy, he’s such a cool guy, you’re gonna love it, like great. So I know, plan Randy.

Randy goes on a heater last four holes, shoots three under on the last four holes, comebacks, beats me. So they’re walking up back to the cars. He’s like, oh so your trainer, huh, he’s, you know, kind of shakes his head. He’s like well, have to get your number. He’s like I might have to come see you. So he’s like, after I get back for my trip, give me a call. So I texted him and next thing, you know, here I have a client now.

So it was like I I lost the match but I gained a client. I did, I gained a friendship. You know we played, you know, random golf together. Now like we’re friends now. So it’s like that Bridging the, the golf was kind of like the entry into, like this friendship and the relationship and like I see a lot of it Like with our crew, is that it’s. It’s more than like CrossFit.

When I left CrossFit and went home, that was kind of it right, like, yeah, you spent an hour with them, now was a. You went home, you know some people you got close with, but a lot of these guys like you’re spending four hours Together rent just talking about whatever, shooting the crap you know, like whatever you’re doing and it’s I think the community in golf is so it’s it’s it’s way different than anything I’ve ever like through myself. That I think it’s really opened my eyes, like it you can do, and especially with my sobriety I don’t think we’ve talked about that very much. Is that especially like yeah, I’m like 11 years, that well, 12 years, 12 years sober is that I Can go out with people that are drinking, that are on the golf course and Still have a good time and that even like on my own, it’s therapeutic for me to go play 18 holes, walk 18 holes by myself, clear my head, even if I have a bad day. It is literally like the most therapeutic thing I think I’ve ever done for my sobriety. That’s awesome.

0:38:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And I think that that’s what’s so cool about you know the community that we’re building here. You know you and I and the gym and Dave here at Empire Fitness Academy but 18STRONG just in general in our mandatory golf Friday. It’s like it’s taking a little bit of that that CrossFit feel. You know some of the workout stuff that we do, but then the golf stuff. I mean so many friendships have developed outside of just you know, mandatory golf Friday start out with a lot of Myself, ryan and different people that we knew that came and played with us right.

And now it’s it’s cool to see like guys in our group, like you and Bobby and Brian going and playing in these tournaments and you know getting together outside of any kind of affiliated events and it’s just so neat to see it all come together and everybody you know enjoying and I gotta give I chill it’s talking about. Yeah, like it’s so cool. I had some of the best friendships that I think a lot of us have had in recent years because you know you can, you could talk about a lot of stuff on the golf course or you can learn nothing about the guy that you’re playing with right, like, like.

0:38:58 – Eric Schaetty
I don’t know me. You’re like you guys said talk about that divorce. Oh and it’s all. How many count?

0:39:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
does he have?

I don’t know idea, but he hit a great three wood, yeah, you know, in the dark, oh, so kind of. The last thing I want to talk about before we close up with our last questions is and I think this is one of the biggest things that I hear you discuss with your clients and is probably the most important You’ve kind of alluded to it already is the consistency factor, and I’ve heard you say over and over and over again to your clients the consistency comes before the motivation, right? So I want you to just kind of explain that a little bit and what that means to you and how it’s helped you, but how it’s also helping anybody out there.

0:39:36 – Eric Schaetty
The big thing that I had heard that quote somewhere recently, but it was for me. It happened before that. It was I was killing myself with cardio. I was rowing for an hour and a half. I was waking up at two o’clock in the morning, rowing for an hour and a half, then going to my job at five am, working all day, and then I would come home and like I guess I’ll do CrossFit, I guess I’ll live some way to take a nap. And I’m like I was a year we’re talking about the walking or something happened. And I was like you know what, let, maybe it worked. Yeah, might have been on the forge, yeah, I don’t know what it was. And I was like you know what? You always see these bodybuilders like walking.

And then a friend of mine, jordan Fagan, mom barbell medicine guy, he had always talked about walking. How it’s like, yay, the key to fat loss is walking. I’m like this can’t be right. And I listened to this guy and I was like, all right, well, let’s give it a try. So I scrapped all that and I’m like, all right, I’m just gonna walk for 40 minutes every morning, wake up, no matter what rain or shine. I’m walking for 40 minutes. I walked for 40 minutes and like three months I had lost like 10 pounds and I was like, wait a minute, this is weird. Like I’m in better shape, I look better and feel better than I did when I was killing myself with this hour and a half of rowing three or four days a week. And it’s like wait a minute, like what am I? I’m walking every day, though Now I’m doing seven days of 40 minutes, plus, when I’m done working out or working, I’m like all right, I’m gonna be the kids, we’re gonna go play, we’re gonna go play golf, we’re gonna go do this. And all of a sudden it’s like wait a minute, like I’m more active, I feel better. Like walking is the secret because you can do it over a long period of time with no repercussions. I’ll be if you can. Like there might be some, well, some limitation, do the elliptical or whatever. But it’s all of a sudden, this consistency was like wait a minute, this is really working. And then you get motivated.

Nobody walks into the gym. It’s like, yeah, I’m gonna do this for three months straight and it’s gonna be awesome. Like most people walk in like the second or third time, like I’m gonna be so sore, this is gonna hurt. Oh man, like I know it’s time for this. Yeah, like, what am I doing? And like it’s like just keep coming back, just keep doing it, just keep doing it and the consistency comes and then, before you know it, like you get your results and then you get motivated. Then the train’s on the tracks, it’s heading downhill and you’re like all right, what’s next? Like put a bar on my back right, Put a bar in my hand. Let’s do something crazy, like right. So I think the consistency people don’t understand it’s like you will get consistent, then you will get motivated. You know, just go to the gym to start going. Whether you want to or not, I promise you in a month you will change.

0:42:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And it works for everything too right. So it works for strengthening, it works for walking, it works for nutrition. Not trying to do it all at once, because you know that that’s just gonna fail in a week. Even if you’re the most you know motivated person initially, you go through a week of trying to do everything every single day. It just it fades, the life gets in the way. But that’s what we’ve noticed with the Forge is we don’t tell people what to do when they work out, we don’t tell people what diet they need to choose. But you have to do it for 40 days straight and it’s like just trust the process, pick these couple of simple things. Or, if you’re one of you, it’s stronger. Okay, I’m gonna go to the gym two times a week and I’m gonna lift something kind of heavy right and do that for two times a week for 52 weeks and you’re gonna see a totally different person.

0:43:09 – Eric Schaetty
And there’s I mean there’s research and anecdotal evidence and personal experience Like that produces results two days a week or what you will see results from two. You don’t have to go to the gym every day. Just don’t do a full body workout twice a week. You will get results and there’s evidence to prove it. There’s anecdotal stuff, there’s clients that we’ve had or you don’t think the proof is in the pudding. You don’t need to go every day. It doesn’t need to be as hard as people kind of make it sound.

0:43:38 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And, as you said earlier, if you’re somebody that hasn’t done that a long time, you’re a little nervous about going or you’re just kind of dreading getting that ball rolling. The cool thing is like you’re the person that’s gonna get the most out of it initially. If you’re somebody that has been training for a while, it’s harder to dial those results in. But if you are kind of starting fresh, simple little things are gonna do a lot.

0:44:02 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, I mean, even like a couple hours a week, you’re gonna transform your body, you’re gonna do things and feel things, and I think that’s the other big thing is, like, most of the people that come in and like I think, like our crew, it’s like, yeah, they wanna hit the ball further, but they don’t want their back to hurt, they don’t want their knees to hurt oh man, I’m sick of my shoulder hurt and my back hurt. It’s like just do these fundamental things. I mean your back will start to feel better, your knees will feel better, you’ll walk nine, 18 holes and be like I feel pretty good, yeah, do it again. Right, like so. I think that’s the other side of it with the strength training is that there’s other benefits to it besides just hitting ball farther or getting stronger. Like there’s lifelong things that you can acquire down the road.

0:44:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The most of the people, I think, that are in our crew listening, that are in our local crew playing, playing men’s tour golf Friday, probably the 35, 40 plus, mostly male, right, like the guys that we play with and, to your point, like it, it’s not all about golf, and 18STRONG has really never been about just lowering handicaps, right, it’s about so much more, especially with my background in PT and injury and just moving better. But tell me if you see the same thing. I mean we’re now inner 40s, I’m 45, you’re 41. Good to be foreign too.

So like we have a lot of friends now that are kind of getting to that point where they’re well-established in their careers. They have kids that maybe are, you know, in late grade school, high school, some college, but they’ve been maybe at a desk for a long period of time. They kind of I feel like we get into this place, especially as guys, where you get into your career, you’re focusing on your family, you’re focusing on doing all the other things and you kind of let your taking care of yourself go a little bit. Have you found that that’s a big part of the golf community that you’ve seen and talked to work with?

0:46:00 – Eric Schaetty
Yeah, a lot of the times, and I mean even like my brother I mean my brother’s a little bit younger than me, it’s the same thing Like he’s very busy with his work life and you know, it’s like it’s like he’s a graser, really good golfer, very good golfer, but it’s like he prioritizes family and everything else over other things like that right, taking care of himself, I mean in fine shape. But I just see like little examples of like, like you said, like people letting you know their other, you know the rest of their life kind of get pushed aside or family or for whatever reason, work or whatever it is. But I mean especially my advice to them just get up and walk every morning. Yeah, just start with 15. Starts walking.

Just get up and be like I’m gonna go walk every morning 15 minutes, that’s all. Just start with that For you. I like, oh, I’m gonna do 20 minutes, I might do 30 minutes, because even walking is going to build the muscles in your legs. You’re gonna get muscle strength just from walking. So even like that, just starting with that, you know, when you get through a little, five pounds.

0:47:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Tell me how to go back, right, Like, just start to get a little bit of resistance, Pretty much some resistance, Exactly. I have a quick story before we jump in this last question. All right, these last questions. I’ve got one of my clients, Greg, who you probably know, but I’ll never forget.

Like we met and started working with each other I don’t know six, seven years ago or so, and he is now, I think, 75, but was just kind of retiring, play, wanted to start playing a lot of golf.

He’s a pretty decent golfer, but he said to me at one point, after we’d been working together for like six months, like man, I would give you a million dollars if you could put me in a time machine and we could have met 20 years ago. You know, like because of he just let his body get to that point and now he’s 67 years old or 68 years old, and it’s like you can’t get it back. So I guess this is my PSA to all you guys and guys out there like it’s never too late to start, but start today, right, and that’s kind of our whole mantra of no mulligans is like hey, you don’t get a mulligan for life, right, Like you don’t get to do this over. Yeah, you’re gonna go up and down with your fitness, but like, start today and start to do something, because you don’t get today back, right.

0:48:20 – Eric Schaetty
No, and then that’s I mean. I like I would say the same thing, like I wish I could go back. But the other thing is, is that people like that? What I have done in my life has led me to this point in time. So just take it for what it is and then just move forward. Right, like you wouldn’t be staying, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you if it wasn’t for all these little things that have happened in my life. So just take it for what it’s worth and then you just move forward from there.

Like you can’t, why change it? Right, it’s happened. You can’t go back. We can’t have a time machine. Right, it’s like, let’s think about, like, moving forward, the next step. So what are we gonna do next? Right, you can’t go back in your time machine. We can do something. We can get up tomorrow, we can go for a walk, we can go put a barbell in our hands, we can go to the gym, we can go find a strength coach, we can go do Pilates or bar or whatever you wanna do. But let’s move forward and not backwards, right, right, awesome.

0:49:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, brother, let’s get into these last questions. Caddyshack Happy.

0:49:16 – Eric Schaetty
Gilmore Caddyshack 100%. It was Christmas. It was always on, always on my grandpa’s house. We watch Caddyshack every year, Love it.

0:49:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, the third. So walkup song that you can pick first to the T-Box at Waterloo Country Club. Well, what are you picking? I don’t know, not really Whatever you want, but walkup songs to the first T-Box, Getting Hectic by the Urge. All right, is there a different one than you would pick at Waterloo Country Club? Um yeah, Probably.

0:49:48 – Eric Schaetty
I mean it depends. Do I want to intimidate people or probably be corn blind?

0:49:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, how about Bill? I love it, bill loves it too. Yeah, all right, let’s see what’s our next one here. Oh, is there a book that you love, that you’ve read and that you love to recommend to people, whether it be golf, fitness, life, well, it’s an actual and it’s not a.

0:50:10 – Eric Schaetty
It’s Bobby Plaguer’s biopic Tales from the Blues Bench. It is some of the funniest stories. You like things about the 60s and the 70s and hockey that you wouldn’t even like, you wouldn’t think they would do it today and you’d be like you’re gonna jail, like some of the stuff they did, and it’s just, it’s a fun read, like it’s a great story. So yeah, tales from the Blues Bench, bobby Plaguer.

0:50:32 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, who’s your celebrity forcing if you could pick a forcing to go play with, you get four and a half to five hours to walk and just kind of shoot the shit with these people. Who’s he gonna be John?

0:50:42 – Eric Schaetty
Daley, michael Jordan and my grandfather so my grandfather’s the one who helped me, like learn how to play golf, but we never played like a full round together. Really, for as long as you never played a full round Cause, when I was like like drinking days and like I would love to have that back to like what I like how I am now. I would love to have that back.

0:51:07 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Is he still here?

0:51:08 – Eric Schaetty
No, he passed away three, four years ago, right around there.

0:51:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So we’d love to have that. Would your grandpa get in on the games too?

0:51:15 – Eric Schaetty
Oh, absolutely. He was the one in the Country Club.

0:51:18 – Jeff Pelizzaro
He’s absolutely he’d be at other games. We forgot to mention that you are the assistant to the chief gambling officer of the 18STRONG crew yeah man Turgoff, right.

So I know there’s gonna be some serious games with MJ John Daley. All the games, I love all the games. All right, if we’re, if we’re loading up the 18STRONG jet, we’re flying anywhere you want to go? What’s your bucket list? Course, and I’m gonna throw this out, like I did to Bobby too, I’m gonna take it. You can say it if you want, but you’re gonna give me another one. I’m gonna take Augusta and St Andrews off the table. Riviera, all right, riviera.

0:51:50 – Eric Schaetty
And it’s super hard. It’s Northern California, like it’s beautiful Riviera for sure, all right.

0:51:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Is there a social media account that you think that the 18STRONG crew should go follow, whether that be golf or whatever, but big Barbell Medicine.

0:52:06 – Eric Schaetty
Barton Barlow Medicine, jordan Barbell Medicine or Austin Barrocky at Barbell Medicine. All right?

0:52:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
There we go, all right, and last one what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given?

0:52:21 – Eric Schaetty
Take your medicine, take, take your medicine, take your medicine. My grandpa used to tell me all the time just take your medicine. To get in trouble, take your medicine.

0:52:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Good advice, good advice. All right, brother, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate you being on. Where can people go and find you?

0:52:37 – Eric Schaetty
E-Shat’s 82 on Instagram. Eric Schaetty on Facebook Schaetty Fitness Consulting. Or come see us here at Empire Fitness Academy

0:52:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And I’m going to try to twist this guy’s arm to do a little content for 18STRONG with us here too. So we’ll be. You’ll be seeing a little bit more of him as well. So all right, brother, thank you very much. Thank you, yeah. Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast and don’t forget to go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong. And if you found this episode helpful and want to help us spread the mission of 18STRONG, please share with a friend. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Scott Fawcett (Decade Golf)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 358
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Unlock the key to improving your golf game as we sit down with Scott Fawcett, the man behind Decade Golf. Together, we dissect the world of golf strategy, with Scott sharing his vast knowledge from his professional golf and poker background. His innovative system helps golfers at all levels understand shot patterns and make strategic decisions, thereby enhancing their performance on the course.

We then venture into the art of setting efficient targets and managing expectations. This episode unravels the mystery behind strokes gained, a concept that measures a player’s performance, and its application in enhancing your game. The conversation evolves, encompassing course conditions and their impact on your game, alongside a walkthrough of the Decade system, which has already improved the performance of countless tour players.

We wrap up our conversation by revealing the power of meditation in golf. Scott takes us through his preparation for the Champions Q-School, sharing his love for the game and how physical fitness and strength training can significantly up your golf game. As a bonus, Scott shares his dream celebrity foursome and his recommended reads that can help enhance not just your game, but also your overall well-being. This episode is your ticket to making smarter decisions on the course and taking your golf game to the next level!

(00:03) Decade Golf

Professional golfer Scott Fawcett shares his Decade Golf system for smarter course management and lower scores.

(11:52) Improving Golf Strategy and Managing Expectations

Decade system improves golf performance by choosing efficient targets, measuring strokes gained, and considering course conditions.

(18:58) Golf Instruction

Shot patterns, mindset, putting, shape consistency, mental game, approach strategy, target commitment, and professional struggles.

(23:22) Understanding Shot Patterns in Golf

Understanding shot patterns leads to better decision making on the golf course and can greatly improve performance.

(27:41) Golf Strategy and Tracking Statistics

Nature’s DECADE acronym emphasizes choosing the correct target, considering constraints, and accurately judging wind for successful golf strategy.

(38:12) Form, Golf, and Partnership Celebration

Tracking statistics and playing smart golf can improve your game, as discussed with First Form and the Decade app.

(44:34) Analyzing Golf Performance and Strategy

Professional golfers like Cam Smith and Zach Johnson use statistics to improve performance and manage egos and variance.

(54:50) Training and Preparation for Golf Q-School

Fitness, injury recovery, and love for golf are discussed by a guest preparing for Champions Q-School.

(01:04:21) Recommended Books, Dream Celebrity Foursome, Power

Professional golfer Scott Fawcett shares his walkup song, recommended book, dream celebrity foursome, and bucket list golf courses. He also discusses the benefits of meditation for golf and overall well-being.

(01:12:19) Effective Communication in Social Media

Scott shares his struggle with conveying thoughts in text versus in person and encourages listeners to follow 18STRONG on Instagram.

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 358, with Scott Fawcett, creator of Decade Golf a tour-proven course management system to shoot lower scores. What’s up guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we know that everyone deserves to play better, longer. This episode is an exciting one for me. We get to talk with Scott Fawcett, the creator of Decade Golf. If you haven’t heard of Decade Golf, it’s a tour-proven course management system designed to shoot lower scores. That doesn’t mean that it’s just for tour players. This is for every level of player. In fact, scott said it’s really designed initially to help younger players learn how to manage their course and to be able to play better, so they don’t have to go out onto the tour and learn how to do all this stuff.

In this episode, we talk with Scott about the Decade System, of course, and really how most of us don’t have any kind of strategy when we go out onto the golf course. We talk about how to figure out shot patterns. Should you hit the ball two different ways? Should you learn to fade it and draw it? We talk about just making better decisions on the golf course, as well as Scott’s involvement in tour players the players that he’s worked with that have gone on to win major tournaments and really how most of the tour players, in one way, shape or form, are using some sort of background in the Decade System.

This is a really exciting episode because even if you’re not a very competitive golfer, you’re like me. You’re going out on golf trips with the guys You’re playing on the weekend. You’re trying to win your club championship. This is also for you, so don’t think that this is a super complicated thing. That’s only for the tour level players. So we’re going to get into all of that right after this. Our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach, there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strongcom slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strongcom slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview Got faucet. Welcome to the 18STRONG podcast.

0:02:40 – Scott Fawcett
Hey, thank you. Thank you very much. I’ve always enjoyed these conversations.

0:02:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, man. So this is really exciting. I alluded to this in an email that I was just on a golf trip with a bunch of buddies to Nashville and really wish that I would have had this podcast episode done. So I had a little more tools than the tool belt before going out there. But so Decade Golf obviously has become, I mean, just kind of blown up over the last several years. Give me just a little bit of the brief history for people that maybe don’t know Decade and don’t know kind of the story and the golfer that you worked with initially right out of the gate, that really kind of blew this thing up.

0:03:16 – Scott Fawcett
Sure, you know I played golf at Texas A&M, got finance and economics degrees and played professionally unsuccessfully. Oh, I say that for six years out of college. I won a couple of times on the Hooters Tour unsuccessfully, meaning I did make it the PJ Tour, but I was pretty solid otherwise and then started an energy company when Texas D regulated back in 2002, which is technically still my day job but right around that time I started playing a lot of poker, which, again, I’ve studied finance and econ and math quite a bit. I never really thought of golf as a math game, but after studying poker in the early 2000s I started thinking like you know, if you get a bad beating poker, you’d better get your head around you or you’re just throwing money away really quick. And somehow that never dawned on me as a professional golfer the one I’m getting pissed off that I’m just throwing money away, but apparently I’m not that smart. But so then in 2011, they started releasing the Strokes Gain statistics and I kind of realized that with the shot patterns stuff we had, there was just like a little idea there that started kind of turning in 2011. And then in 2013, when they released the entire Strokes Gain catalog, I was like that’s exactly what I needed. I didn’t realize that they were tracking that much data with Strokes Gain. But I just realized that we could combine shot patterns from launch monitors like a four-side quad into and then combine it with the strokes to hold out. Then it’s just a giant weighted average math problem essentially. And I guess what’s funny, I spoke at MIT in Wharton last year and I’m like guys, this is just weighted average math. This is not really very advanced stuff. I’ve never felt dumber in my life, but I actually caught. I was telling somebody about this just yesterday.

I wouldn’t have thought of it otherwise, but in the 2013 US Mid-Am I caught a root on the second hole and really hurt my right elbow, wound up shooting 83 and called it a day after 18 holes, so I could just go ahead and head on back to Dallas because it was not good. Well, that’s the same elbow that the week before the Texas Am. That’s right around the time that I started doing all of this work and was planning on playing a lot of golf in the summer of 2014. And the week before the Texas Am, I got a quarter zone shot of my right elbow and the doctor actually paralyzed my right arm for a couple of days, which, yeah, it was pretty wild. I mean, my arm just kind of folded up and he was like I mean he was using a sonogram. He’s the Mavericks team doctor, so I wasn’t concerned until I went back and he’s like, oh yeah, I thought I paralyzed your arm. I was like, oh really, because it just literally curled up like this and I could pull it down and sit on it. But obviously I can’t play golf with a paralyzed arm. But once it came back to life a couple of days later, he was like I would let, I would take a couple of months and not play, because I would let it just whatever would happen in there really clean itself out.

And so Will Zalatoris, who I used to have to tell everyone who that is he was just a 17 year old junior golfer at my home course. I just and I’ve known him since I was on the corn fairy tour in 2009, which was right around the time he moved to Dallas from San Francisco. So he’s just a nine year old kid out there, 10, 12 year old kid, whatever and just following me around like a puppy dog. So he and I had been doing chipping and putting and playing and everything, since he was literally single digits of age. And so I called him and I was like, let’s go grab some lunch, I’m going to explain something to you. And so I kind of showed him what I did with the math and the strategy, because I mean, he’s a great ball striker now, obviously, but he was just as good back then. I mean he really was unbelievable and just kind of explained it all to him and I was like, let me catty for you next week, let me just try to play you like a video game. He was like absolutely Cause again at the time he was 3,300 in the world in the junior rankings, had never really won anything at all. And I cattyed for him and he won the Texas sandbite Now I can’t even remember if it was either three or four shot four straight under par rounds, which he’d never done before in a tournament, and just on and on.

And you know it was just interesting breaking down after the fact because so much about it was just expectation management, not having ridiculous expectations, and then obviously playing approach shots correctly with, with targeting, that is so, since he’s such a good ball striker and he definitely was struggling with his playing back then also. So he’s trying to make birdies with his approach shots instead of just saying you know what? I’m probably going to birdie the par fives. I’m going to make my birdies on these par fours just within the variance, within my shot pattern, meaning I don’t even have to aim at a hole and I’ll accidentally polar push it every so often. And then it’s really about bogey avoidance, which again and we’ll talk about this a million times over throughout the thing but catty from the area one.

He qualified for the US junior the following month I went down and catty for him in Houston anyone. And then that’s just really where, like I say that, the SMU coach came up to me at the US juniors, like I don’t know what you’re teaching him, but I think you’ve got something to teach these kids because you just had no idea. I’ve known him since we were in college. He played at SMU while I was at A&M, so you should have no idea how dumb these kids are. Like we were at the same time. And so a month or two later he asked me if I would come teach it all to Bryson DeShambo. Obviously, depending, bryson is one of those names you can be, can be just a one word name, even though it’s not like Tiger or something like that. So I go teach it to DeShambo. A couple of months later he wins the NCAAs.

And it was just funny because, looking back at it, everybody has got crazy talent. I mean, even the listeners think they should have shot lower every single time they play. These guys are no different. That’s when a 10 handicap thinks they’re going to be happy. When they’re finally a scratch, it’s like no, you’re not. You’re 25%ile of worse rounds, feel just as bad or even worse, because you feel super stupid because you’re a scratch, you know.

So it’s just about taking these young players and just cleaning up their thought process, picking better targets, having more reasonable expectations, and so next thing, you know, I’ve, you know like last year I have 11 of the top 15 players from PGA Tour. University were decade members in college, 17 of the top 30 from this year’s corn fairy class. I mean, it’s just hilarious how these young players just clean up their brain a little bit. You know, we used to always think that you had to get out on tour and learn all the shots to start making in your early thirties, and hindsight it’s like no, you needed to get older, get a prefrontal cortex that actually functions, then screw it up for a couple of years to finally learn your lesson. And here we are in 32, an actual adult.

0:09:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I mean I, you know, I look at myself, I look at my buddies I look at and many of us that didn’t play golf growing up, you know, now it’s a, it’s a huge passion of ours and many of us are just recreational between you know, say, a five and 15, maybe even 20 caps. But even just you know us as 40 year old guys. I’m like man. How much can we gain simply by understanding how to play the game better? And I have a son I was mentioning. He’s 15 years old, made the freshman golf team last year but he’s really just kind of getting into any kind of competitive golf and I’m like man. This is the stuff that really I need to put in front of him right now so he can kind of learn that.

0:09:47 – Scott Fawcett
I think that somehow the best players just intuitively figured it out, and Tiger would actually be one of the few that didn’t, until he turned pro. He was just so much better than everyone physically and hit it so much further than everyone that he could crush junior and amateur golf, and I’m sure he would have had a great career. But I’ve got this one video in the app where it’s from the same video, when Curtis Strange is asking him what would be a good finish this week and he’s like first and second sucks. And Curtis tells him you’ll win or you’ll learn, rather. And then it’s like no, you will actually Curtis, but yeah. And then the later in that video, that same interview though, he said you know what’s kind of some of the learning you’ve done since you’ve been out here?

He said that he had played with Nick Price the prior year in the US Open and he said that after the first round he shot like 65 or six and was leading. And he asked me you know like how many pins do you fire today? He said he said he fired it too. And then he went out the next day and did the same thing after the round he asked me he said like two again and Tiger’s like well, here I was firing at every single one of them and Nick at the time was number one in the world and, you know, crushing everything and I really think that was probably the most important 36 holes of his life to realize there might be more to this than just bludgeoning a golf course. And that’s where you can really. It’s fun going back and listening to a lot of his interviews now because, man, you can really so much if it sounds like sports cliche, but you can really pick up a ton of stuff. And one of my favorite ones I remember is I can remember if it was the US Open or if it was, I think it was just a tournament at Torrey. But they asked him and Joe Lacové after the round they said you know what was the best shot you hit all day? And in unison, immediately they both said the three iron on whichever hole. That par three is on the back. And I was like there’s no chance that ball is going to be within 30 feet of the hole. But they both immediately any par three out there that you’ve got a three iron in your hand, there’s no chance the holes is target. And I just listened to that. I went back and found it. I think the shot was like 42 feet from the hole and it’s like they both said it was an absolute laser beam that is targeting and it’s like there you go, this guy’s. You know. I’m not saying anyone should be firing three irons at flags, but like they both knew that was such a good shot and was obvious where their target was.

And again, just learning how to play the game correctly, like I say, it’s just that. It’s. It’s this thing I say all the time. But if you feel like you should have shot lower, there’s only one of two things possible You’re either not as good as you think you are or you made mental and strategic mistakes. There can literally be nothing else. It’s one of those two, and so once you get people, no one wants to admit they’re not as good as they think they are. So then they’re like all right. Well, maybe I’ll turn this stone over and I mean again just a hundred percent of our decade members improve. I mean it’s. I feel like such a snake oil salesman saying that, but literally everybody gets better because we can just track their stats and data. Just pull your head out of your butt.

0:12:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, I mean, I think that most people have no idea, really any kind of strategy. I shouldn’t say most people. I’m thinking a lot of the recreational guys, a lot of the golfers that you know are at the country clubs that aren’t tracking hardly anything in. As I was watching some of your videos on your website, you said that decade the name actually stands for six steps to choosing a target and playing efficient, patient, disciplined golf, and that doesn’t describe many of the golfers that I know. It describes none of them.

0:12:57 – Scott Fawcett
Well, it’s the thing that popped in my head when you said you know you’re trying to be kind by saying you know some people played with good strategies. Like no, literally everybody played with poor strategy back in the day, or at a minimum they might have chosen some good targets, but then they also had a bunch of cliches like favor this angle, leave it below the hole. You know all these other things that are just patently incorrect for no doubt a net negative. I mean, there just literally is nobody Tiger excluded, in my opinion, that probably played with just perfect patient strategy.

0:13:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Can you for all of us that you know? Strokes gain has become a huge term in the world of golf these days. We’ve actually had Mark Brody on the show a couple of years ago. But can you give us a refresher on what exactly strokes gain means, in the simplest form possible?

0:13:43 – Scott Fawcett
Yeah, what you got to start doing is, rather than thinking of a shot in a certain amount of feet for a putt, or a certain amount of yards for an approach shot, you’ve got to start thinking in shots to hole out.

So, generically, we know that from eight feet the pros are 50-50. So it takes an average of 1.5 strokes to hole out. You know it’s basically a coin flip from eight feet. So if I make an eight foot putt, I’ve moved it one and a half strokes closer to the hole in one stroke. So I gained a half a shot against my expectation. If I two putt it, I’ve moved it two shots. In essence lost a half a shot of expectation.

So then you just know, from every single inch on the golf course, so from 100 yards in the fairway, it’s 2.8 shots to hole out. A 400 yard par four is where they average 3.98, basically four shots. And again, this is what’s funny is most people would, when they walk up to a 400 yard par four they’re like, okay, this is an easy hole, it’s a birdie hole. Like no, no, no, no, it’s an easy hole, it’s a hole you’ve got a better chance of making par on On tour. They’re not making birdie that often. I mean it’s just, it’s amazing Again, once you just kind of know some of these numbers. And again, they’ve marked Brody because obviously he’s a brilliant man. They’ve got a number of ways that they adjust for course conditions. So it’s not like all this is one of the things the announcers constantly get wrong, or anyone who wants to try to be like a naysayer is they’re like well, not all eight foot putts are the same. It’s like yeah, that’s why we have a daily adjustment on tour.

Now, yes, generically, if I’m sitting here catting for you, I’m going to tell you this is about 50-50, but realistically it’s about like 1.47 to 1.53. It’s just not as big of a difference as most people think to be this spot versus that spot. And again, the second year, the first year rather of decade, is expectation. I don’t know that. I would have realistically known how important that was until just seeing the success of this year after year after year. I mean it’s funny because a guy like David Ogren won a couple of times out on tour. He’s catting for the 15-year-old that cattied for Bermuda next week. He’s one of his students and so David asked me the other day if we could hop on a call just so he could ask me some questions about how to catty and work with these kids’ brains and stuff. And the number one thing I told him was just to literally tell him the expected value from every shot.

So just if you have to have a card in your hand, knock yourself out and just hey, right, here we are, 165 yards in the fairway. Make a three here and that’s two or average. Again, a lot of tourist players will say I don’t want to be two or average. It’s like, again, that’s not really the right way of looking at this. But if you beat this average by 3.97 and it’s four, that’s three-hundredths of a shot. But if you did that 18 times, it’s over half a shot. You’re one of the best players on the planet.

That’s where, again, you just have to start thinking in fractions of shots, because not only can you only gain shots in fractions of shots, you also can really only lose shots in fractions of shots. So even if we go on to a hard hole that has like a 4.4 scoring average, if you make bogey there, yes, you dropped a shot to par. That’s kind of irrelevant. You dropped a half or a point six shots to the field in your competition. That’s not as painful and like it’s not. It’s really just not that big of a deal. But when you start making a double on a hole like that because you tried something stupid from the trees, now you’ve lost one point six shots instead of point six shots. It’s literally almost three times as bad because again you’ve got to wrap your head around that you can only gain them back in tenths of a shot also. So it really is. Yeah, it’s only one shot worse to par, but it’s actually three times ish as bad when you factor in how you’ve got to make it up.

0:17:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you’re talking about managing the expectations. I mean, I look at it as what you just said is this is just going to help you keep from doing stupid things, like making those stupid decisions right. I mean, how many times have we hit it, hit it left, hit it in the trees? It’s a par five. Well, now I’m going to make up that for that shot. And I got to go try this. So the first time I heard about Decade and started looking into it, I was like man, this seems a little bit complicated. Where do I even start? And then I know that you guys have now kind of even scaled down to the foundations where you have kind of a lower grade level, not for the tour players but for the guys more like myself and my buddies. So where does somebody initially start with when they’re starting to get into Decade? What’s the first step that they start to look at?

0:18:12 – Scott Fawcett
Well, it’s funny because even when I used to do so, I created a seminar when coach Enlo wanted me to come work for Bryson. He’s like it has to be done indoors because otherwise they would consider me a third paid coach. So I created this indoor seminar, shot a bunch of drone footage and went in and we were giving it and with my seminar it used to be just straight into approach shot strategy, tee shot strategy, putting strategy, and then I ended with an hour of mental stuff and throughout giving the seminar, multiple times, the mental stuff started working its way in earlier in the session and I’d be like well, we’re going to get to this later. I’m going to explain it to you now. And literally I completely wound up flipping it because, again, as a self described lunatic, I used to be the biggest basket case on the course back in the day, and so that’s where we start now. So when you get the app, the first channel is technically titled getting started, and it is just about here’s how shop patterns work, here’s the realities of putting. Here’s a few simple ways to pipe. Here’s why hitting one shape in a stock shot over and over and over and over again so important. So there’s probably an hours worth of content just on. Hey, this is step one of pulling our head out of our butt.

And then the next section is the mental section, which is where I explain Dr Lardon’s scorecard, which is a stat we talk about. You know just how you do. Anything is everything. So there’s like five or six videos in that. And then we finally get into approach shot strategy, because I definitely have just realized if you don’t have the base, you’re just going to blow through the rest of it so fast that you’re really not going to learn it. And that’s the whole reason with the foundations is I want people to digest it. So month one is you just get the getting started stuff and then three weeks later we give you a little bit more. So what I’m really doing it’s technically all the same content, but it’s rather than you getting all of it the day you purchase it, you get it basically over about four months, every three weeks, because I want you to take the three weeks and then what I’ll say in the last video of that series, like, okay, I want you to take the next couple of weeks when you get out, hit balls, be looking for this, be looking for that, noticing your shot pattern. That’s why I have people hit at the same target all the way through the bag, because I want you to be centering your shot pattern over your ultimate target. You know missing roughly half left and half right.

When you’re changing targets all the time, you don’t really get as good of a feel for that, and so one of the main things that, like professionals, get wrong and I definitely got wrong was I feel like I chose good targets back in the day but then I didn’t actually try to hit it there. I would choose a target with a seven out of maybe five or six yards right of a flag and then I would think, okay, well, I hope I pulled this a little bit. And again, I don’t. I don’t know at what point you get good enough. I know a 30 handicap doesn’t have that thought, so I don’t know at what point you get good enough that that thought starts creeping in.

Because I do feel like listeners have to be like are you serious? Yes, 90% of the PGA tour I mean probably not as much anymore, but 50%. Certainly a couple of the noun 90% a couple of years ago would have that thought five or six times a day and I do believe that that’s where the outlier shots come from is just this lack of commitment. So that’s, we start with shot patterns and mindset and commitment, because that is that is the main thing I actually think I’m teaching.

0:21:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I love that you, you almost you kind of force feed us just a little bit so we can’t jump ahead and get ahead of ourselves and dive into the stuff that we want to learn.

0:21:27 – Scott Fawcett
And you know, because you naturally want to get right out to the range and go beat balls and but having that mindset, and I don’t think the production quality is that great, because it’s literally me, just a golfer and an electricity salesman just voicing over PowerPoints and you’re. So it’s not the highest quality content but the the information in it is exactly that. I mean it is just tailored for players like us who just I mean again, that’s the whole reason it goes slow, because it’s like I think that most people actually enjoy the content and I feel fear that they would binge watch it. Then I mean most I get. I get nothing but comments. I mean, yeah, it’s not, it’s not obviously produced in a, in a Hollywood studio. But man, I just can’t stop watching these videos and I’m like that’s exactly why I have to force you to stop watching them.

0:22:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, absolutely so. Talk to me a little bit about shot patterns and you know how, how you describe it to us and and I mean the relevance of it, and then also picking targets and and how we can kind of get a little bit better. Obviously, that’s what a lot of this program’s about, so we want them to get into the program, but give us some some scoop there, sure.

0:22:32 – Scott Fawcett
I mean shot patterns are just, they’re shockingly large.

I mean everybody thinks that like a tour player has just got total control over it and they’re just huge. Which is why I like on reachable par fours Number six at wing foot immediately pops to mind where the layup is about 200 off the tee to leave about a hundred yards. And you know it’s just a, it’s a dead if you ship it up there around the green and then you you’re on the wrong spot but it’s, the fairway is only 20 yards wide at 200. Like, those guys aren’t going to hit that much more than about 70% of the time and so now 30% of the time you’re sitting back there in the rough. But. But so that that’s just an indication of how big shot patterns actually are. Again, with just a five or six iron for those guys they will not hit a 20 yards fairway nearly as much as you think. Now if we step it all the way back to driver, I mean they’re just massive. I mean there there are holes on the PGA tour where the shot patterns a hundred plus yards wide on a hole, that’s like they’re kind of all aiming. It’s not like this is a some huge hole at Pacific dunes or whatever band and dunes, wherever it is that all the architecture lovers love with the, with the angles, number 11 at TPC Sawgrass has a lake on the left and a desert on the right and the shot pattern is literally 80 plus yards wide every single year. And I mean, once you understand that again, like now, if we come up to a hole that dog legs left around a lake like number 18 at Sawgrass, it used to be a fader like me. We’d get up there and try to hit a draw, to work it in, it’s like, or you could just. If my shot pattern is roughly 70 yards wide with driver, I can just aim 35 yards right of the furthest pile on, I can carry and then just hammer driver, I’m kind of crossing my fingers, I hit it left, but I’m certainly not hoping I hit it left because if I do this four times it should work out to about 50, 50 or what I talk about.

Winning requires luck so much. It’s also possible that just three out of the four days I happen to pull it on 18 and I’m sitting out there in the fairway. That’s, that’s just luck and that’s really convenient. So just understanding shot patterns and how to manage them around the golf course is just again literally everything. But what people need to do is kind of go hit 20 or 30 balls with the same club at the same target and just notice where it’s going. I mean, that was definitely once Will and I agreed at lunch that I was going to come loop form the Texas Sam.

We went straight out to Ben tree here in Dallas cause I was like I really feel like getting him to commit to targets is the hardest part, like like in a pre mortem. What’s going to go wrong if this goes wrong, he’s going to be hoping he pulls stuff. So we went out there and I literally just sat behind him with a yellow notepad and we just had him hit balls at the same flag and I was just kind of dotting how far left and right each one was and then just kind of showed him like look at this. I mean I’ll give the kid credit. First of all, he did actually center his shot pattern directly over the target, which most people will be skewed one direction or the other. And but what’s amazing is in back then.

I didn’t really know the numbers yet but I was like I mean this is incredible. Man from 180 yards. The vast majority of your shots are within 10 yards left and right of the flag here. And he was like, is that good? I’m like I don’t really know, but it seems good, cause now I think about you out there at that distance on a golf course and basically never missing the green. Yeah, that’s really good. But also what he had to notice was if we’re on a 20 yard wide green and we are aiming at the middle of the green, if the pins on the left, right, like I don’t really care where the flag is One of these shots that I just kind of handmade a track man scatterplot. I didn’t really have access to attract men in 2014. I just kind of handmade a track man scatterplot and just illustrated that to him. And again, I’ll give him all the credit in the world because that was definitely the one thing.

I thought he’d screw up and just went out there in the golf tournament and this is what’s funny. I’m just gonna give him the first nine holes. He literally hit every single shot exactly where I told him to and I was sitting there like I’m pretty sure this kid would have shot lower if I wasn’t cadding today, because he would have stuffed a whole bunch, but he shot like 67, because he played the par-five as well. And then we came out the next day and he just hit it all over the face, all over the lot.

He was super nervous and he grounded out a 70. And I was like, wow, that’s the difference. That should have been like a 76 with the way he hit it and where his frustration level would have been in patience and just everything. If this had been the prior week, it for sure would have been a 76. And, like I say, just understanding the realities of shot patterns and the realities of resultant expectation, just what is your expected value score from any given spot on the course? It’s just hard to get mad or frustrated. Again, trust me you can, but it’s just a lot harder.

0:27:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I’ve heard you talk about it in regards to like a shotgun, right, like you see, the pellets spray, and many times when we’re looking at a pin or a target, I think we think so much left to right, but also that shot pattern goes forward and backwards, right. So talk to me a little bit about like par-threes Most people are, or even just from the fairway people are talking about center of the green, center of the green, but that’s not always the case, right?

0:27:41 – Scott Fawcett
No, definitely not Again. Like this is where a lot of people who like to give me a hard time they’re just like oh, center of the green, how’s this guy making money Just telling people to hit at the center of the green? I’m like it’s not even close to that. Center of the green on number 18 at St Andrew’s, when the green is 50 yards wide and you’re probably about 40 yards. That’s really bad advice. Center of the green on number 10 at Pebble Beach, where the green is only 17 yards wide and there’s an ocean on the right. That’s also really bad advice because you should be aiming almost at the left edge of the green. So really you know again, that’s just the decade acronym D distance. How far are we? We’ll skip the E because it’s expectation C.

Correct target is your target based on the length of the shot. And then A analyze is analyzing the surrounding hazards, and that’s again just, it’s just not as simple as middle of the green and that’s something you said earlier too about. Like it kind of seems a little complicated and like it is. It is complicated because golf is a complicated game. That’s again, I’m just giving you a hard time but like, trust me, that’s the main thing I get all the time too, and I’m like, well, what’s more complicated, chess or checkers? Well, checkers, do you think you could beat a grandmaster at chess? I highly doubt it. I don’t care who the best player in the world is at checkers, like they’re probably not that much better than you are. It’s a pretty straightforward game, yeah, so just really understanding that choosing your target based on the constraints of the shot is by far what you need to be doing. And again, center of the green is just, I mean, it’s the correct thing, a lot, but also it’s not. I mean, there’s a number of times Mark Brody did a study on this where he was just showing he was just an eight iron, just like 170 yard shot to a back left pin, and he did the calculus with the shot pattern centered over the target and over the middle of the green and then also over the optimal target, and the middle of the green was worse than aiming directly at the flag, like. So there’s this inflection point, typically between the flag and the middle of the green, and I’ll say, like I’ve got super lucky on the system that I came up with, like I did a lot of math and I could do a lot of math in my head to come up with the targets. I got super lucky that it’s actually a pretty easy system to teach people to do again, based on this baseline number and the analysis that you do in your practice rounds.

But the long and short where you originally went, we’re going with your question. I mean, people just suck to front hole locations and it’s just because you can’t over peer a shot. So if you’ve hit a seven iron 170, a single time in your life, you’re like that’s my perfect 170 club. And it’s like well, I don’t want to be negative, but you average 160 with it. And to back pins and front pins you can largely get away with it. But to front hole locations you simply can.

And this is again even for tour players. Like anytime I’m working with a new tour player, I’m always just like well, I mean those amateurs on Wednesday, they’re just idiots. They have no clue how far the ball goes. And they’re like, oh my God, that’s just hilarious. I’m like, yeah, you don’t either. It’s less awful, but you’re still wrong by two or three yards. And now when the pins on the front and it’s five or six yards on and you don’t know how far you carry this club by two or three yards. That’s probably an extra 25% of the time you’re coming up short.

And this is what’s hard is, yeah, I want you to carry it probably past that pin and if you hit it, perfect, you’re probably gonna have 30 or 35 feet coming back. But that’s better than you’re gonna be short. Chipping from short, which is probably below the level of the green, which is terrible. Probably in rougher a bunker Like that’s not good either, and so you just really you need to hit 30 or 40 balls. This is why I mean I don’t like just coming on and bashing Arcos, but I heard they were bashing me the other day.

So whatever, this is where just telling me the average of the length of how far you hit every seven iron, that’s really pretty useless information. It’s better than nothing, but into the wind hurts more than downwind helps. Was I punching it? Was I ripping it up? Like there’s just more to it and again, like it’s great for a 10 ish handicap, 15 handicap.

I’m sure that there’s enough information in there, but if you actually want to be good at this game, you need to know how far you carry every club in a static, zero wind, zero altitude or your home altitude environment, and then you need to figure out how to play for it, which guys like Jeff Smith and other people two instructors that have they’ve got the system now that my understanding is an FBI ballistics expert came up with it on how to rate, how to play and judge into the wind and downwind and crosswinds Towards. Now that’s just, it’s every caddy on tour will just have this little card in their in their yardage book cover that tells you basically exactly what the wind’s gonna do to every shot. Now, obviously, if you’re saying it’s 10 miles an hour, it’s blowing five to 15, so we still got that variable. But as long as you can put a pretty decent average number on it, the wind is almost irrelevant anymore. There’s just so much stuff like that that I don’t think people at home really realize.

0:32:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What. So what are the things that we tend to track? Or many don’t track anything, but what are some of the things that we tend to track that really you’re like that doesn’t even matter. And then what are the things I know? On your website you’ve got the five things that we should be tracking. So what are some of those, if you wanna share those with us?

0:32:57 – Scott Fawcett
Total putts is beyond useless fairways hit, I mean, as long as it’s over 50-ish percent. I’m gonna need more information to like do you hit it 320,? Do you hit it 240? Like, I’m gonna need more information. Greens and regulation is great, and this is where Mark Brody and I were actually playing golf at Pinehurst a couple of years ago during the golf magazine Top 100. And the guy I think was Kordie Walker that was walking on and playing with us was like what’s the most important stat to track? And I was like well, I mean, I guess Greens and Regulation is the most correlated to score. So I guess Greens and Regulation and Mark cause he’s a billion times smarter than me he jumps in and he’s like well, if you think about it, scott, if you know that it’s pretty much perfectly correlated with score, you don’t really need to track Greens and Regulation, cause if you tell me you hit 60% of the Greens and Regulation, I can pretty much tell you what your average score is and vice versa. And I’m like yeah, that makes total sense. So you know, the Strokes Gain putting is a pretty good metric without being on tour. Everything else is pretty flawed using Strokes Gain Again. This is why, as a guy who sells a stats portal for a living. I try to always make people know like the stats is secondary. The point of decade is not statistics, it’s to teach you how to score so you can figure this stuff out on your own, because all the Strokes Gain stuff on tour we’ve got daily adjustments but it’s your home course. If you’re playing Harbor Town and I’m playing Augusta and we’re using the same benchmarks for Strokes Gain driving, that’s not gonna go well for you, cause you’re gonna be hitting a lot of two irons off the T’s and you’re gonna be hitting them in trees and I’m gonna hit driver on every single hole and I’m not gonna hit the trees that much. And so if you’re just using distance off the T again, there’s just a number of things that are flawed, but that’s what you alluded to a second ago.

The five stats everyone should be tracking back in the late nineties. I mean, yes, tiger was doing great, but I think he won maybe three times in like 97 or eight, and then each other year was just a win. I mean it wasn’t like he was crushing it and he won eight of the last 11, I believe in 99. And my understanding is he basically started tracking. Okay, when I finish around and think I should have shot lower, why? What is it Like? It’s not cause I’ve missed a green with a four iron, it’s cause I missed the silly, this easy up and down, or I made a bogey with a wedge, or I three putted from 20 feet Like. Those are the ones that we want to identify.

So Tiger came up with these five statistics double bogeys, bogeys on par fives. He tracked bogey with nine iron or less. But considering how far the ball goes and everything now and what I think, he probably hit nine or maybe I just say bogeys from inside 150, blown easy save and three putts. And again, blown easy save is subjective to his opinion. So I just have players track how many two chips. And again, if you sit down after around a golf and you think I should have shot lower and it’s not one of those five, you’re kidding yourself. I mean, that’s the situation of you’re not as good as you think you are. But if it’s one of those five, I mean again, obviously a 10 handicap is just gonna make bogeys from 140 and they’re gonna three putt. But even Tiger, it wasn’t no blown easy saves, it’s how many?

Tiger figured out that if he could keep those five things to six or less, so one and a half around.

I mean, again, if you think about it, that’s none. I mean that’s a decent amount of pretty dumb stuff he would win. And the actual number it’s like 6.2. Like, again, you can’t really do the blown easy saves, but the actual number when you go through and do a little math on it he was right around correct of what you needed to have a top five finish on tour, cause most of that’s just scoring data that we can go back in and actually analyze. And again, this is where when I say like I was a lunatic in my twenties, like I literally would go get all pissed off, not go to Chili’s with my buddies and talk about all the dumb stuff I did that day and then never think about it again. And here’s Tiger doing the same stuff literally at the same time. I mean I graduated from college at the same time and he’s like, well, I’d like to stop doing that and I’m just like man, this is frustrating, it’s shocker. He did better than I did, right.

0:37:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I want to take just a second to thank our new partner, which I’m really excited to announce is 1st phorm. 1st phorm is a company that is here in St Louis, based in St Louis. It’s a nutritional company that is doing incredible things in the world of nutrition and one of the reasons that we decided to partner with 1st phorm is obviously we’re very impressed with their dedication to their products and the quality of their products, but really it’s the dedication to them, them helping their customers get real results Aside from just the products. We got a chance to go and actually visit the facility again here in St Louis and really walk the halls of the corporate offices. But we got to see the manufacturing plan or the warehouse, and it’s not just a place where they’re packaging supplements and shipping them out. It’s a culture, it’s a community, and you can see that amongst the employees. You can see that their culture and their core values that are not just pieces of art on their wall. They’re actually letting them there and they’re helping to expand those into the community and really that’s why we partnered with 1st phorm. Obviously, their products are incredible. Otherwise we wouldn’t suggest them Either. We use them on a regular basis. So you’re going to be hearing a lot more about their products and what they can do for your fitness, what they can do for your golf game, the protein powders, the multivitamins, the protein sticks, the hydration packets all of those products we’re going to highlight in future episodes.

But we just wanted to really celebrate our new partnership with 1st phorm. You can go to their website, 1stphorm.com forward slash 18STRONG, and we’re going to be doing a giveaway every single month with anybody that buys through that link. So go to 1stphorm.com that’s P-H-O-R-M dot com. Forward slash 18STRONG. That’ll take you directly to their website and you can check their whole suite of products. It’s including some of their fitness apparel and anything that is purchased over there. You’re going to be enrolled into our list for our giveaway. So when, after your round, you track those things, you see okay, I did this, I had this many three putts. Then what do we do with that? How do we take that and get better at it, as opposed to just what you were just saying, like, okay, tomorrow I’ll just count them up again.

0:39:21 – Scott Fawcett
Well, obviously, if you’re tracking them in the decade app, we send you content once a week based on your statistics. So, yeah, we’ll send you a video like hey, we noticed you made a couple bogeys with a wedge or did this or that or whatever. There’s 200 plus videos that are just like five-ish minutes long, that are kind of in this back catalog behind the scenes, and so it goes through. I could say some artificial intelligence sounds smarter than it is, but it’s a little bit of AI. Figures out which ones it sends you. Sends you stuff again each week, but if you’re tracking them on your own, it’s.

There was a player on tour that he was wanting me to find something from to work on a couple of years ago and I’m like honestly, your scoring average he’s a fader. Like your scoring average from the left rough sucks. It’s like a 0.3 or 0.4 shots higher than from the right rough. I don’t really have any advice for you on that, other than notice, the next time you’re in the left rough and I trying something that’s probably a little bit harder than I need to here, I don’t really know what to tell you other than that, because I can’t see each shot and the main thing that I would tell people that want to go out and track the Tiger Five mistakes is just make them less and the next time, whichever one you’re really you’re having a bunch of, you need to be aware the next time you’re in that situation Like you know what, I’m making a lot of bogies from inside 150. I’m 120 here let’s really think this shot through, what’s my target, what’s the surrounding hazards, and then really commit and really try to make a par here. Again, it sounds dumb, but that’s the exact advice I give to our players. So, if a tour player sometimes, like you know, I’m really struggling with my gap wedge right now let’s just don’t screw this one up. And again, I don’t need you to make many birdies to average 2.9. But you just can’t make bogies. I just cannot make bogies. And again, that’s just some of the funny parts about it.

There’s so many of the older guys that I’ve talked with tour players. There’s like when we were down the tiger, we just knew we couldn’t catch him because he wasn’t going to help us. And I’m like, yeah, that’s A, he’s really good, I get it. I’m not oblivious to that. But also, if you’re really good and you’re out there just trying to avoid those five mistakes. Again, I don’t really care what he says in some of his interviews and stuff where he’s like, well, you got to get the hammer down here and there and whatever and I’ve analyzed 20,000 of his shots by hand where the targets had to have been based on the sum of all of them I just don’t think that he really changed much. He just went out there and he tried to play good, smart golf from the first to the 72nd hole.

And, like I say, I’m probably about to make a total idiot on myself and champions to her Q-School here in a couple weeks because I’ve not played golf in months.

But I also there’s part of me that feels a little bit confident that if I can just get on the course a couple times to do some putting drills, I’m going to outthink these guys just for sure. I mean just there’s no doubt about it. I’m going to play more patient, discipline golf and a lot of times in a Q school. It’s about just not doing dumb stuff more than it is doing incredible stuff. And then if you’re taking that same mindset into your club championship or into a full tour series, it’s like if I do the right thing. For 54 straight holes, there’s a much better chance of me coming out on top. Just a little bit of luck, I mean still going to have to. You know, if you’re, if you’ve got 20 guys, they’re all kind of the same You’re still going to have to have a little bit of luck to for it to go your way, but you can certainly ensure you’re going to play well.

0:42:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, that’s, that’s what I’m thinking is like knowing that most people out there, especially in a club championship or you know, like some kind of a guys trip or like nobody has any strict strategy around what they’re doing out there. You know, my, we have a rider cup that we do every single year with a bunch of college buddies, wide range of players, and unfortunately I wasn’t able to make this year, but the guy that’s the captain next year, he’s like we’ve lost the last two. We got to do something this year and I’m like you know what this? I’m going to talk to all the guys on the team and just implement a little bit of strategy and it’s bound to give you quite a bit of an edge over all the other knuckleheads that are out there playing.

And, you know, going to your point of managing expectations, you know I feel like so many of us feel like we’re disappointed because, simply because of our expectations, going out thinking this is a birdie hole and, like you said, no, this is just a don’t bogey hole. Or I was just talking to a client the other day and he’s like I’m really working on trying to hit the ball from right to left. He’s, you know, naturally hits the left to right and I’m like hold on a second. I’m talking to Scott Fawcett this week and I don’t think he’s going to approve of that.

0:43:53 – Scott Fawcett
No, I mean, again, it’s just trying to shape the ball both directions is so overrated it’s unbelievable. I mean, and again, this this guy that just graduated from the corn fairy tour, that had an hour long conversation with yesterday, that was the one that was the most impressive, that was the one thing you want to talk about is like firm greens and shaping the ball. He’s a fader and shaping it to like a cleft pins and stuff. I’m like my definition. What you’re laying out for me is a hole that’s going to have a high scoring average. You don’t have holes that you’ve got 180 and firm greens into aren’t going to play several tenths of a shot over par. Like it just doesn’t happen. So if we can get that ball on the green and make a par again, this is the way you’ve got to think of this. Math is Okay if it.

When when Cam Smith won the tour championship or not, the the the tournament champions a couple of years ago, he was 34 under par and he was 14 shots clear of the field average. The year that Zach Johnson won the Masters and all the announcers like to talk about, well, he didn’t go for a single par five. They kind of lead out the fact that nobody did that week. Literally he won it one over. It was miserable, it was 45 degrees and misting, like it was not. So he didn’t win because he didn’t lay up, he won because everybody else laid up. He was laying up anyways. And it’s just like about understanding these very basic mathematical odds. So if they’re both 14 shots clear of the field average and if we’re on a hole, that because of the firm greens and all this stuff, it’s playing with 4.2. If you can just take this shot and put it on the green and two put it, you’ve gained two tenths of a shot. That same kind of a shot. If you did that 72 times, you would be over 15 shots clear of the field average. You would literally win a hundred percent of your starts on tour with as I’m describing this to tour players 90 percent of the time.

They’re like well, that’s not that hard to do. I’m like then I would do that. And that’s again where, once you start getting these younger guys to think this way, I mean again I hate like saying the sky’s the limit, but that’s why I mean just every single one of them is has got, whether they’ve, whether they’ve got actual decade background or not. They’ve all at least heard and understand the ideas now. And that’s why you’re just seeing every I mean just scores are dropping and just yeah, it’s just the games. We make the game way harder than it has to be. It’s actually I haven’t even thought of this thing in like five years, but it’s this paradox that golf is so hard that you have to play it correctly, which then actually makes it relatively easy. I mean, if you just eliminate doing all the dumb stuff we do every single day, that’s half the battle.

0:46:25 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What’s what’s been the biggest challenge? Working with some of the best players in the world. You know you got these guys that. I would assume you know there’s probably some egos involved. There’s guys that think that you know they can, they know their yardages, they know, they know how well they hit it. They hit it better than anyone. What’s that been like? Trying to temper that.

0:46:46 – Scott Fawcett
Just using math at them. I mean again, that’s, that’s it. I mean just literally stating here’s the facts, these, I mean no one’s going to do better, much better than this, these averages year and year out. Because again, when I say much better, like obviously by definition, whoever’s number one is doing really well, but if you break it down like per hole, it’s just not that much. I mean again, if you’re, if you’re gaining nine tenths of a shot in any given category, whether it’s approach or putture, putting or whatever, like you’re probably leading or right there at it, it’s 0.05 shots per hole. And again, like I realize doing that every single hole is a lot, but once you look at it on a per hole basis, it’s just not. Again, it’s indistinguishable for the most part. And that’s again where I do believe that the majority of the players that are just great, consistently, somehow, some way they just understood this stuff at a young age.

0:47:42 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you look at a guy like Scheffler, who had a year where his I think his scoring average was one of the lowest ever, but his putting was he was also one of the worst statistically on tour, I believe, yeah, I mean. What do you? How do you explain that to people? I mean honestly with him.

0:48:00 – Scott Fawcett
I just I don’t. I mean it’s it’s interesting because variance does play such a large role and so it’s possible. One of the two players I worked with a number of years ago. I was watching and he was like minus three and change putting, and I was just like it was the first round after we had talked I was like oh my God. But I was also like you know, every single put he has is between 15 and 25 feet. Like he just kept on hitting it to 15 to 25 feet and literally within four minutes of him finishing his round, my phone rang and I picked it up. He’s like dude, that was amazing. He’s like the putting was not nearly however bad. He’s like I have no idea what he’s doing. I have no idea what the number was, but it was all over the whole day. I was like well, that’s good. Because the thing I was going to tell you is it’s entirely possible, you putted well today, but just because of having this specific range of putts and that’s what I would say with Schaeffler is it’s entirely possible. I have no idea, but it’s entirely possible he got off to just a little bit of bad luck, a little bit of bad variance through some part of the season and then started trying to fix things that weren’t potentially really broken. And then it just becomes mental and that’s. It’s sad, but man, that’s just. That’s so pervasive and that’s what I try to tell people.

I actually use the stats and strokes gained to convince players I work with they’re not as bad as something, it’s something as they think they are, at a factor of 10 to one more than I use it to say here’s what you need to work on.

I mean, they just ask these questions all the time to players but it’s like what do you think the average score is from blank? And I’m not kidding, 100% of the time they say a number lower than the actual expectation. I mean you would think that even if they’re all guessing too low like maybe sometimes players would guess a higher number, a 100% of the time they guess lower the actual number by a wide margin too. And again now, if you’re out there thinking from whatever, from 20 feet, you should make some certain percentage of them and then you just keep missing 20 footers. It’s pretty easy to get mental really quick, and that’s again what I did and pretty big reason why I didn’t make it. And that’s what again, once you start taking these younger players and convince them of these numbers, you have to use the data and the math to do.

0:50:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, and I think, watching golf a lot, obviously we’re seeing the best of the best and we’re seeing the best shots from the best of the best. So naturally, our expectations. You know, somehow we think we should be hitting shots like those, but we, you know, so it’s already hit one.

0:50:25 – Scott Fawcett
So you’re like I want to get it more, more. Yes, exactly, I just do that.

0:50:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it’s crazy. It’s crazy. But then to go out and watch and follow around of those guys you know going out to. I had the chance to go out to the corn fairy tour finals and walk and follow a couple of guys and it’s like, oh man, I didn’t think the guys hit shots like that out here, and they sure do, you know. I mean, they hit it all over the place sometimes too.

0:50:51 – Scott Fawcett
Well, and that’s again. I made this mistake in Houston one year. I missed the Monday qualifier so I stayed at Buddy’s house and I went out. David Duvall was my man crush at the time and I went out and followed him for nine holes and I swear to God every single shot and like I’m out there just with him. He’s number one in the world. He’s just striping everything and I’m like I drove home like I can’t compete with that. It never dawned on me. I don’t have to. I don’t have to and I’m honestly not even sure if I recognized at the time, because I was like a couple of years ago I was like you know, I’ve told that story a million times how did he do in the tournament? And I went and looked at it he won by seven or eight. I’m like, yeah, the guy was playing pretty good golf at the time and it’s just, it’s just incredible. Again, it’s all.

It’s such a cliche saying that golf, you know your main competitor is the course, but it really is the course, the course and the average score. I mean what everyone else is doing is literally, it’s not irrelevant to you, but it’s irrelevant to your game. It’s the only ball Some people try to take so much mindset and other studies from other sports and applying to golf and I’m like it’s just a different sport. It might be why we all love it, but it’s just a different sport because there’s no defense, there’s no shared ball, technically aside from live with the shotgun. There’s not even a mutual clock, like you just don’t know what your opponent’s going to do until it’s kind of too late and so trying to. It’s just exhausting to be running all these iterations in your head of what, these different scenarios for the win top 10, top 25, making the cut, like no matter what, there’s always some number you’re close to and again that’s. I don’t know that. I would have appreciated this until Stuart Sink. He bought the app the week before he won in Napa. So his first win in 12 years came the week after he bought the app. And then he won six months later at Harbor town. And after his win in Harbor town I went on PGA tour radio one day and we’re talking about it and then he came on the next day and his quotes super long, but it’s amazing. But there was towards the end of he’s.

Like it takes the mental energy that used to be required to deliberate and make decisions like that, and decade makes the decision for me which keeps me fresh. It’s pretty simple and I like using it and I’m like I don’t know that because I’ve really in the last seven years, since eight, nine years Jesus I haven’t really played that much golf myself, and so most of the golf I played there, most of the time I was on the golf course, was caddying for will for five or six straight years in the summers and everything just cause it was so fun. And now I’m just getting to play a little bit and I don’t think that I’ve ever appreciated how valuable that aspect is, just being less tired, and one of the main things about being less tired is just stop worrying about everybody else. Again, I talk a lot about meditation and that’s. You know I used to feel pretty spooky talking about it, like I, you know, should be in California or something like that, not in Texas. But now that’s the one good thing social media has brought is the spotlight on Kobe and Jordan and Tiger, and you get so many more interviews with these people now with podcasts and everything where they’re a little more candid than they are maybe in books and stuff and they’re talking out the cuff and you just find out that so many players have some sort of meditation routine. You talked to earlier about some of the players I work with, like frustrating stuff.

Like I got one guy that should be a world beater and you know he asked me at the end of last season what do I got to do to get into that top 10? And I’m like you got to stop pouting. Like you look like you could start crying at any second out there. And that’s going to come from an awareness and that’s going to come from meditation, where you’re more aware of your thoughts. You’re not just being yanked around in any direction your brain tries to lead you. You could actually be aware of what you’re thinking and then again it’s easy to say stop thinking it. That’s the skill and why having a practice?

Again, we’re now talking about people that want to get to the highest level. It’s incredible how hard it is to get people to do that. And I’ve got Tiger on audio saying I play golf as a moving meditation and my mom started me doing it when I was born. I’m like there you go. You’re not going to catch up to that guy, but you better start now. It’s just so obvious that golf is a moving meditation or the zone is a moving meditation. Golf is not a moving meditation. The zone is a moving meditation.

0:55:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you have champions Q-School coming up, so tell us you said you haven’t been playing a whole lot, but when is it? Where is it? And then tell us a little bit about your prep.

0:55:24 – Scott Fawcett
Yeah. So it’s interesting. I played some pretty good golf this spring and early summer and then I had four straight tournaments in July and I played pretty good. I shot 64 in the first round of the Texas State Open and had the lead as a 50 year old amateur. But then in the third round I did something to my ankle. I just I didn’t, I was just walking and I tore muscle like the ligament that goes around the back and behind your ankle. I tore somewhere where that attaches and so I had to just basically take six weeks and do nothing but ankle rehab and I literally did. I didn’t touch a club for over two months.

And at this point now I’ve played golf twice since July. I’ve got a simulator here in my house, so I’ve started hitting balls probably twice a week in the last three weeks just to start, like loosening up my joints and everything. And this is where it’s weird, man Again with what I feel like. I know I usually drive it well, I actually got to play. One of the two times I played was in the Constellation Furick and Friends Pro Am, again with my electricity company. They sent me an email like four months ago saying hey, would you like to compete with some of the best 50 year old golfers on the planet. I’m like that’s pretty ironic. Yes, I would. So I actually went and played with Alex Chetka in the Pro Am. Oh, cool, and that’s the. That was the first time I played in two and a half months and I drove it great, which is funny to me. I don’t really understand why other than the fact I don’t make it complicated I just set up and just try to hit a hammered cut every single time and you know, I’ve been doing this for 50 years, so I’ve gotten decent at it. And, honestly, the way I feel like, if I can just get out and at least put for 10 hours over the next three weeks, which I should be doing 10 hours a week, my goal is to play.

I’m going to get greedy and say five times, but Q school starts four weeks or four weeks from two days ago. So Tuesday in four weeks it’s in California, out at Subobo Springs, I think. It’s an Indian casino down there, of course, looks good from the satellites, but I literally I just chose it because it was the furthest time, wise, first stage away, because I just wanted to. I knew I needed as much time as physically possible. One of the stages starts next week. I’m like that would not be good but my ankles feeling pretty good, pretty strong shoulders. I’ve also got a torn rotator cuff and some other stuff in my left shoulder but it’s feeling pretty good after doing all the rehab I’ve been on. So I’m moderate.

I’m definitely overly optimistic. I feel like I can get through first stage. Now the problem is second stage is there’s only four cards and then just the top 20 guys get any sort of conditional status, which all that actually does for you on champions tours gets you through the Thursday pre qualifying. But that’s really ultimately my goals to somehow get through first stage and then somehow play solid enough to top 20 at final stage. Just I feel like I can work some sort of a schedule. But if you have to do the Thursday qualifier, you got to do the Thursday qualifier, the Monday qualifier and then the tournament doesn’t even start till the next Friday. Is a guy who runs two companies with a wife and ex-wife and a 10 and 14 year old girls. That ain’t going to happen at all.

0:58:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What does your, what does your training schedule or training look like? I mean, obviously you’re a very fit guy. I know you hammer a ball. I mean as far as, like you know, a lot of the listeners that we have are in the 35 plus crowd, so very curious to see in here what you do.

0:58:49 – Scott Fawcett
I usually try to get to the gym for at least an hour and a half or almost two hours at least four days a week. I just do old man exercises, just. I’ve definitely enjoyed a number of different golf specific guys, but I just always wind up going back to the same 12 or so exercises. I’ve always enjoyed working out. I’ve been fatter at some point in my life. I mean I’m definitely the most in shape I’ve ever been.

I had surgery on both elbows in 2021 to finally clear all that up and then really just the last two years I’ve probably put on 20 plus pounds of muscle and gotten down to about 20% body fat. I can tell you’re pretty lean and fit, so 20% is probably much higher than you are. But I don’t really like the cardio and I definitely like eating like crap. So I need to probably grow up out of that. But yeah, it’s training, definitely just getting as strong as possible. I just don’t feel like that can be a bad idea, especially with all the science now of like if you’ve, if you break a hip over the age of 65, it’s like a 50% mortality rate in the next year and it’s like a 90% You’re at least going to be incapacitated to some degree, whether that’s a walker or something, and it’s like just doing the most you can to keep as much muscle on your body and that’s where, yeah, I’d like to do more golf specific stuff, but I just don’t have time for it. And I’m like half vein too, or I’m like, well, I wouldn’t mind being bigger. Also, it definitely helps me hit the ball further. I actually think the two having size is as weird as it sounds helps with your chipping and putting. I think the tiger strength was as big of an asset in in just stabilization and agility for as chipping as putting as it was for anything else. I mean obviously the guys, the goat, essentially everything. So whatever he does can’t be bad.

I mean I think it’s funny when people give him a hard time saying he was on steroids and stuff back in the day. I’m like you mean, a 32 year old athletic guy can’t put on. I mean again, you literally put on over at that age over a pound of muscle a year easily, excuse me, a month at. You know, 12, 15 pounds over the course of years just is nothing. And on his frame that looks like a billion pounds of muscle. I’ve put on like nine in the last 15 months and I look noticeably bigger, like you take and I’m 220,. You take his 170 pound frame and put 15 pounds of muscle and it looks ridiculous. Yeah, I mean again, he might have been, but I don’t think that’s mandatory. If it was, he probably wouldn’t have gotten his injured.

1:01:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you say old man exercises, are you talking like squats, deadlifts, like that kind of stuff, Squats deadlifts, lat pull downs.

1:01:27 – Scott Fawcett
I do like getting on the machine where you can do the arms back as well as turn around and do the flies. I’ve been doing a lot more of the knot. I need to do the exercises where you’re abducting, I guess.

1:01:40 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah the good girl, bad girl machine. Yeah.

1:01:44 – Scott Fawcett
Good girl, bad girl oh my God, that’s amazing. I’ve never heard that before, somehow. That’s incredible. I like doing the bad girl version of it because I feel like that helps your right glute as much as anything. And then obviously, lat, pull downs, tricep extensions. I’ve definitely been doing more face pulls.

I’ve heard that that’s really good for along the back of the shoulders, the lateral raises, front raises, calves, yeah, and then squats. You know it’s funny. I don’t know why. I’ve still never tried it, but the one where you I think it’s like a donkey kick or something, where you get on your like on all your elbows and then you’re down and then you’re just like pushing back with one leg. That seems like a hell of a lot better exercise for the glute and for the golf motion than just a squat where you’re still like seated when you’re extending it into a full plane, I guess you know, from your head to your toes or straight line, and I literally have never once tried it. I look at it every time and I’m like that looks like such a better exercise and I’ve never even gotten on the machine for some reason.

1:02:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
You’re talking to one where you’re almost like in a harness and you’re leaning in and then pushing the way back.

1:02:48 – Scott Fawcett
And then pushing back.

1:02:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
We don’t have one here, we had one at our last facility and, no, it’s a great machine. Plus it, you’re kind of suspended a little bit, so you’re having to use a lot of core while activating and you get that the leg kind of in front of you and have to drive from there. So it’s yeah it is. It’s a great. It’s a great machine. All right, there we go. I’m going to try it.

1:03:06 – Scott Fawcett
The next time I go, I’m going to try I tell you what this is what’s weird man this is.

I really have been a train wreck these last couple of years. I was planning on playing all day today and I literally last night I don’t know what I did, but between just beneath my rib cage and between my hip on the left side there’s a pain in there Like I mean it’s dicey. I mean I was asleep 15 minutes before we started because I just went and laid down. I don’t know what I did, but man, it hurts. I’m lucky I originally was like Googling and said kidney stones. I’m like I feel like if I got a kidney stone I would literally just kill myself. That is, I’m terrified of getting a kidney stone, but I guess that’s supposed to be more around towards your spine. So I was like thank God.

1:03:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, I mean it could be. You know, it could be like some oblique and ab related stuff, depending on what’s going on. But yeah, if it persists, better get that checked out for sure, for sure. All right, my friend, just a couple of questions to finish off with you. I really appreciate your time today. This has been awesome, all right. So we asked us if everybody comes on the show Caddy Shack or happy Gilmore.

1:04:09 – Scott Fawcett
I’m changing on that as I get older. I definitely was a Caddy Shack guy all along. Adam Sandler used to drive me crazy, but now my kids like his movies and my wife likes his movies, so I’ve been watching more of them. So I’m probably going to go with happy Gilmore now.

1:04:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, If you could pick a walkup song to the first T box. What’s your walkup song?

1:04:26 – Scott Fawcett
Oh, what is it? God dang it. I’ve literally answered this question just the other day and it is, oh my God, there it is the Rolling Stones Paint it Black. I couldn’t come up with that Nice. That opening guitar riff is just amazing.

1:04:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Is there a book that you’ve, you know, really dug into over the years, something that’s meant a lot to you? Doesn’t have to be golf, could be anything, but you tend to recommend to people.

1:04:55 – Scott Fawcett
The Art of Learning by Josh Waitskin. It is absolutely incredible. That’s actually what Zala Taurus and I. I’ve read it leading into the Texas AM. I bought him a copy. I’m like I want you to read this thing before the tournament starts. And then at the US Junior.

I didn’t really realize at the time because there wasn’t as much into the meditation stuff as I was, but we were staying about 45 minutes away from the golf course and Will’s dad is a little bit of a nervous driver, to say the least, and I was like I can’t ride with this guy for 45 minutes because he’s on the brakes and on the gas and on the horn. I’m like I cannot do this in Houston traffic. So I told him I was like, hey, Will and I are just going to ride in my car so that way we can just talk a little bit and get in the right mindset. He’s like absolutely, he’s a good guy, whatever. And we literally were silent for 45 minutes every single day, driving there, just listening to the Art of Learning and just it didn’t. It doesn’t really matter where you pick it up, it’s applicable to everyone’s life, like literally every single chapter. And I don’t think I realized at the time, we were basically just doing almost an hour long just meditation Cause. Again, it was by design. I’m like, dude, we’re going to be together all day. We’ve just really shouldn’t talk for the next 45 minutes. It is exhausting, it is dehydrating, let’s just get our minds right. And he was like, okay, cool, and so that’s literally all the way to the course and, honestly, all the way home too. We would just sit there and listen to it. Just, it was one of those deals that was like our ritual that works, so we kept on doing it.

I will say this is the one question I wanted to add to. Also, though, the tour player that I worked with yesterday. He was like that’s the most amazing book ever. He’s like I’ve read it at least 40 times, and, you know, over the course of the last couple years. And he sent me an Audible of a book called Richard Weiser Happier by William Green, and so I literally haven’t even started it yet. But this kid, you know, played golf at an Ivy League school and he’s a. He’s a good player and a good guy, and if I was looking at that, I was like, well, if you recommended that one, I’m going to bet it’s pretty damn good, You’re not going to recommend a book you can’t stand behind.

1:06:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome Art of learning has been on my list of books to read for the longest time, so this is definitely going to make me press the end.

1:06:59 – Scott Fawcett
I would pick that to the top. It’s amazing.

1:07:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah for sure. All right, who would be your dream celebrity? For some, if you got to play with anybody in the world, doesn’t matter who it is past, dead or alive anybody you’d love to play with, I mean that would definitely be Tiger, I would probably say Jordan, and then, just to keep it fun, I’ll say Mark Wahlberg. Yes.

1:07:24 – Scott Fawcett
Awesome, or DJ Khaled.

1:07:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Let’s go golfing, all right, excluding Augusta and St Andrews, because that’s what seems to be what everybody picks. It’s kind of like a wheel of fortune. You know, we’ve taken out the certain letters. What’s a bucket list course that if we could fuel up the jet right now. And I said, scott, we’re going, where do you want to go? Where are you?

1:07:45 – Scott Fawcett
taking us? The irony of that question is I’ve played Augusta National once and it was on November 2nd seven years ago. So I played Augusta seven years ago today and it was brutal because it was actually just overseeded, so the fairways were all just long and wispy. The course is soaking wet and we played it from a step off the back at like 7,800 yards. It was actually miserable. I actually need to go play it again closer to tournament conditions. If I had died and never played it, it’d be like well, whatever, nobody gets to play Augusta. But now that I’ve played it like that, I’m like I have to see this thing closer. So I actually will say Augusta, but I will say you know, pine Valley would have to be the one, seminole. I love Florida, so Seminole would be cool, but I would probably go with Pine Valley barely over it.

1:08:31 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Awesome. All right, what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given?

1:08:37 – Scott Fawcett
That’s a good question. Can it be advice I gave myself? Yeah, for sure I would say just start meditating To know, to finally learn. You don’t have to get mad. I mean that’s, it’s funny because I get, as you know, hundreds of thank you type emails and I would say I get as many or more you’ve helped me in my life with the content than I get. You’ve helped me purely with my golf game, I mean. And that’s if there’s any one thing, like I said before we started, like I’m not really impressed with this world we’re putting together here with phones and social media and everything.

And that’s one of the reasons that, if there’s any one thing I would like to hang my hat on at the end of whatever career this is, is just getting more people into meditation and accepting that thought is just a thought and they cannot live, you know, based on whatever the next thought is in their head. I mean, again, I talk a lot about Sam Harris, but his waking up app. I literally recommend that almost more than I recommend my own app. Now, the convenient thing for me is Sam will actually give it away to you for free If you just Google waking up free. He’s a pretty nicer guy than I am, but just learning that a thought is nothing more than a thought and you do not have to just let it dictate your actions, it’s just. I wish I would have known and understood that younger.

1:09:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s amazing. I love it. All right, my friend, this has been so much fun. I’ve learned so much and definitely want to dig in more into the decade app. Tell us a little bit about well, first of all, where people can find it, and I know that there’s a couple different levels, so feel free to tell everybody yeah, you can just go to decadegolf.

1:10:16 – Scott Fawcett
We finally tried to take this business series over the last nine months. At first I was just always kind of like, yeah, it’s fun, passive income and whatever. It’s finally got the point where it’s kind of big enough that it’s a real deal and lots of fun. So we’ve finally got decadegolf up and running. Foundations, like I say it’s the two are identical Foundations is definitely designed foundations and elite Foundations is definitely theoretically designed for a junior golfer to force them to go slower.

We have free yardage books. So if you’re a person who actually plays golf and uses yardage books at all, I really tried to design the app to where it pays for itself. You get elite. You get 52 free yardage books a year should be 48. And with foundations you get one a month for the six months, because I figured those players aren’t probably playing quite as many tournaments and we do have a cost associated with the yardage book. But you just type in what course you’re playing. We’ve got all 42,000 courses on the planet in the database. If you look at it and yours is not updated, you just have to send us an email and we will get the course updated, usually in about 48 hours or less. Yeah, so decadegolf. Thankfully I punted Twitter, because it’s such a cesspool. Instagram is, I think it’s decade, underscore golf, and that’s there’s the main places.

1:11:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool. We’ll have it all linked up in the show too. And congrats on on punting Twitter. That’s awesome yeah.

1:11:39 – Scott Fawcett
That’s the best move. I mean literally. That was a top five move of my life.

1:11:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I can only imagine so much, so much more headspace now.

1:11:48 – Scott Fawcett
Oh my God, the inbound is just incredible. And what the problem is, they think they’re arguing about opinions. I’m like this is not a mathematical certainty, like you were literally arguing two plus two is five. If you could just take a second. And what I finally realized with Twitter is you have to condense your, your idea, into one post. That’s why I’m considered like. So, just like blunt and kind of an a-hole is just because if you, I might get a hundred thousand views on the first tweet and like 10,000 on the second and like eight on the third. So it’s like if you don’t get it all into one post, you might as well not even try, because no one’s going to read it all, and then see might. It will just be as direct as you can, which apparently is really hard to do for me.

1:12:29 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, it comes off a little different in text than it does in person. Exactly Awesome, scott. Thank you so much for your time and really looking forward to to sharing this with the 18STRONG crew Awesome, thank you. Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast. Don’t forget to go follow us over on Instagram at 18STRONG, and if you found this episode helpful and want to help us spread the 18STRONG mission, we’d really appreciate if you shared with your friends. Staying hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Dr. Zac Cutler (Sports Performance Chiropracter, FGLC Performance/Golf and Training Institute)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 357
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Imagine having the secret to improving your golf game right at your fingertips. The key could be as simple as understanding your body mechanics better. That’s right, we’ve got Dr Zach Cutler, the lead chiropractor at Golf and Training Institute (formerly FGL Performance), spilling the beans on how body mechanics can be a game-changer for your golfing skills. Dr Zach will talk about his thrilling experience at the 2016 US Amateur and how his golf background is instrumental in assisting his patients.

Fancy knowing more? We’ll walk you through the world of sports chiropractic and its impact on a golfer’s performance with the experts from the Family Golf and Learning Center. They cater to different age groups, building strength for kids, considering past medical history for adults, and helping everyone step up their game. We’ll shine a light on common golf-related injuries, specifically low back and SI joint issues, the importance of core stabilization, and breathing techniques to prevent these problems. You’ll also get to hear about the role of T-spine and hips in back pain, and tips to improve swing speed and distance.

If you think that’s all, well, we’ve got more. We’ll be sharing our personal experiences, discussing the mental aspect of golf and how it influences other life areas, not to mention, announcing our partnership with First Form, a nutritional company committed to helping customers achieve real results. Hear the stories of overspeed training, postural exercises, and the challenges of finding time to practice and train. Lastly, a professional golfer will share his best round on the course, his favorite golf movie, book, and his dream foursome. So, put your golf caps on and let’s head on to this enlightening journey. Tune in and get ready to swing your way to success!

(00:03) Improve Golf Game Through Body Mechanics

Dr Zach Cutler shares his golf background and how he helps patients improve their game through body care.

(10:01) Chiropractic for Golfers at Learning Center

Sports chiropractic improves golf game by incorporating physical health and wellness for kids and adults at Family Golf and Learning Center.

(23:45) Golf and Fitness

Chiropractor and physical therapist discuss combining manual therapy and exercise for golfers, and addressing posture..

(31:28) SI Joint Dysfunction and Golf Core Strength

Nature’s injuries in golfers’ low back and SI joint, core stabilization, breathing techniques, T-spine and hip involvement, and overspeed training for swing speed.

(39:55) Golf Training and Personal Experiences

Over speed training in golf can improve performance by understanding body movements, but finding time to practice can be challenging for busy professionals.

(47:58) Memorable Rounds and Golf Dreams

A professional golfer shares his best round, mental game, favorite movie and book, dream foursome, and advice.

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 357, with Dr Zach Cutler from FGL Performance.
What’s up, guys?

0:00:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
This week, we are in studio with Dr Zach Cutler from FGL Performance. Dr Zach is the lead chiropractor. He’s a sports performance chiropractor over at a really cool facility here in St Louis, missouri called Family Golf and Learning Center, or FGLC for short. He’s the head of FGL Performance. Dr Zach also played very high level golf playing Division 1 at Valparaiso. He made it into the 2016 US Amateur, and so he utilizes his background in golf to work with his patients, specifically golfers just like you, to help them move better, help them improve their game through their body. So in this episode, we talk exactly about that how you can improve your game by working on your body, because it’s the only thing that you use on every single shot. So today we talk with Dr Zach about building speed, gaining mobility and really ultimately swinging the club better for a longer period of time. You have to control your body for 18 holes, 36 holes or even longer, and he helps us figure out how we can do that better. So we’re going to do that right after this.

Our partners over at Linksoul have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach, there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strong.com slash Linksoul. You’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Linksoul’s website. So again, 18strong.com, slash Linksoul for our favorite brand of apparel, for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview, dr Zach Cutler. Welcome to the 18strong podcast.

0:02:24 – Dr. Zach Cutler
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

0:02:26 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, for sure. So this has been a little bit of a long time coming. We met a few weeks or months ago and you’re doing some really cool things over at Family Golf and Learning Center that we’ll get to talking about. But let’s talk a little bit about your background in just golf athletics. I know you grew up playing a lot of hockey. Did you play more hockey or more golf when you were growing up?

0:02:46 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Growing up it was more hockey. My dad, most of my family, is Canadian. Hockey growing up was a sport and same with my brother, so played hockey for the most part of the childhood and then gradually golf into it and over at Wing Haven Country Club, right over here.

0:03:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What level of hockey did you end up playing Like? How late did you play through high school?

0:03:07 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so I played until sophomore year of high school and it was a central states team through St Louis Selects. They’re called a kind of transition into car show AAA now, and so it wasn’t quite at that AAA level but just in between that double AAA level. So I met a lot of good people through that program, but also a lot of those players were golfers as well so it was a good mesh.

0:03:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Gotcha. So your golf career then started just playing with your brothers, your dad, and just kind of grew from there.

0:03:41 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so golf grew up. My grandparents lived in Branson and so they were members of the course down there. So my brother and I we would go out on their golf car playing holes after in the evening and learning golf that way and my grandpa was a huge part of giving me into golf and really just kind of grew from there. You know, every time we’re down there playing, and then gradually transition to junior golf programs and then to some local events. And you know, just led to one thing another.

0:04:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So then played in high school and then ended up going to Valparaiso and playing Division 1?

0:04:18 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yes, so with high school Timberland High School, over in Winsville, and from there in 2013 we won the state championship. So that was a great experience with the guys. And then from there I committed to Valpo, played four years of small D1 school in Northwest Indiana up there, and that was a great experience. You know, I had a small win my freshman year you know some good golfers Division 1 program up there. And then, yeah, 2016 was able to come back down here at Old Hickory golf course and qualified for the US Amateur that summer and kind of a crazy ride to get there through that qualifier, but it was fun. And then later, I think it was July or August, and it was the US Am and just a good experience for sure.

0:05:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that was Oakland Hills.

0:05:19 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Oakland Hills Country Club up in Michigan. So two courses and I think just outside of Detroit, maybe up there, and it was a great layout, great course.

0:05:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what was it like going into that setting? Obviously a very big deal to make it to that setting, that level. Were you nervous? Were you excited? All of the above then how did you end up playing that week?

0:05:46 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so I’ll kind of start at the qualifier. So first round wasn’t too good. It was a 77 and the last round ended up shooting 666 and got into a playoff and three guys and that actually took eight holes. So it was a long second day and I got that second spot and from there I didn’t really know what I got myself into. In regards to the US Am like I always try to qualify for that.

Everyone in the area try to qualify for that if you’re an Am and then you don’t really know until you’re there. When you’re there, it’s really neat how structured and how everything is set up at this US Am. It’s so professionally set up and I was nervous when we were there you had the head of the USGA that was there at the time and going through and seeing all these really well known amateurs playing in this event and a couple well known ones I mean Skychefler, colin Morkawa, were in that and some high end names right now in the PGA Tour, which is really cool and it shows that it made it to that level, made it to that tournament, and so the nerves on the first tee were high, for sure, but gradually sunk into it a little bit, didn’t play too well, but great experience and it just shows you where your golf game needs to be to play at that level. And that experience has really helped me where I’m at now with my profession and helping golfers now.

0:07:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So metal play is how many days is it? Three days in the US Am, and then you make it to match play.

0:07:27 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Two short play days. And then top 64 and I think it was plus one or plus two for the 36 holes. There were two courses, north and south. One was the championship course, the other one was a shorter, tighter course. Out there and I think there was like 17 guys for maybe six spots to get the last few spots for the match play. So it was, I mean, a lot of players. I mean there’s 312 players or so that make it and then only 64 go to match play so you know.

But you know, even though not making the match play, it was a great experience for the guys that I played with, but also, you know, guys that were on the putting green, the locker room, all that, so met a lot of people through it as well.

0:08:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Who ended up winning that year?

0:08:12 – Dr. Zach Cutler
It was Curtis Luck, so Brad Dahlke came and runner up and then I’m not really sure how Moira Kawa and some other guys did that year, but you know it was some good playing for sure.

0:08:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you mentioned that. You know that experience and just playing collegiate level golf has really kind of helped shape your career. What made you decide to go into the chiropractic school you went here at Logan.

0:08:39 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, right.

0:08:41 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And did you always know that you wanted to kind of get in the medical world, or is that something that just kind of gradually, you know you worked out through the years in college?

0:08:50 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So I’ll kind of start off. In high school I was definitely driven in regards to the golf aspect well, golf and hockey, but gradually just into golf and so I was very focused. I really wanted to take that as far as possible. As I was in college playing both golf and the academic side, I realized I really enjoyed the body biomechanics. I want to help people and I felt like and I wanted to work with athletes as well and I felt like, originally, physical therapy was the way to go.

Nowadays we’re becoming very similar PTs and chiropractors and but the entry into schooling is a little different. So I was actually originally taking classes to go into PT school and try to get into those and transition where I met a few guys that actually were in here down in St Louis that then go into Logan and I’m like you know what, it’s close to home. I shadowed some physical therapists, some chiropractors. I love both professions and just thought you know this is the route you know to go, being close to home here at Logan, and I’m glad I went that route for sure.

0:10:00 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome. I was expecting you to kind of say that maybe you had an injury that you know like that’s a traditional physical therapist story.

0:10:07 – Dr. Zach Cutler
I had an injury.

0:10:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I went to rehab. I saw what they did there. I thought it was kind of cool and I want to work with athletes. But you know, to have that athletic background and wanting to go into that, seems to make.

0:10:19 – Dr. Zach Cutler
I mean perfect sense, yeah, really not a whole lot of injuries growing up. And that’s the thing where you know the patients golfers I help with right now and not just golfers, some other athletes as well the routes and my experience that I’ve been through to kind of get away from those injuries, and along with just nutrition as well, along with the training, along with the treatment and management, injury management and it’s been really helpful for myself and I’m trying to help people as well with that.

0:10:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So you work at one of the coolest places here in St Louis Family Golf and Learning Center. So first, just for people that are listening, we had Adam Betts on the show a long time ago, really right when Family Golf and Learning Center was getting ready to be opened up. But tell us about you know what’s going on over there, what the place is, because I think that you know when you hear that name you don’t really know what it is, but it really is like a premier spot for golf in St Louis.

0:11:20 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So family golf and learning center. It’s a great spot. Like you said, it has a par three course, it has two hitting bays, grass hitting bays on the side. It has a double tier range, along with a massive putting and chipping area. Not only that, where I’m inside it has a couple track bands where you can really look at your numbers, look at in and out speed, spin all that and then upstairs you have the fitness center where my office is located, helping with the physical aspect of the golfers game. So at this facility for really the average golfer, trying to get the full spectrum of the teaching pros, the chiropractic, pt, rehab side and trying to engulf the amateur golfer with every aspect that these pro and tour players have, and it’s just a perfect facility for that.

0:12:13 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Did you ever go there before it was taken over and redone and everything?

0:12:18 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So I’ve seen pictures. I’ve never been there, so Adam’s done a great thing to this place, so it’s a good spot right now.

0:12:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Yeah, if you were to see it. I mean, think of kind of your traditional old school driving range two tiers but small little shack and basically just a flat surface driving range.

It does have a nine hole par three course out there. But then Adam the new owner came in and has just done so much tore down the old building, built a new with 10,000 square foot facility. It’s just, it’s top notch. And every time I go there so my son goes there now my son’s 15 years old, him and his cousins and buddies hey, can we go out on a Friday night and go up to family golf? When it’s 45 degrees out you can go inside and to the hitting bays or the heated bays.

But it’s cool like there’s so many kids out there practicing and I think that there’s so few places and I think this probably goes for the states in general there’s unless you belong to a club, it’s hard to like go get real practicing and then to have a facility where you can go practice your short game and then you can go inside to hitting bays and then to take it another level and have somebody like you there where you know you can come and get assessed, you can come and get a training program, you can have doctors at work on you. It’s just it’s pretty cool to see that. You know it’s like the pros have their team, their medical staff, their, and you guys are kind of doing that over there.

0:13:50 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Trying to hit every angle for you know the average golfer that’s in the area for sure. So you know it’s really neat too with the PGA teaching instructors there and, like you said, the kids, and it’s every age and skill of a golfer that’s there practicing and they’re able to get the instruction side but also able to get their body, their movements assessed and you know, like I said, attack all angles.

0:14:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I’d like to maybe break out into kind of two different groups, because you know we’re talking about some of the kids and then I think that a big demographic of our audience is, you know, guys like me I won’t throw you in the old man bus, you know, 27 years old, but you know us guys that are in our 40, 35, 40, 45 and beyond. We have our own issues that I think we’ll probably talk even a little more extensively on. But curious, when you’re working with the kids, you know, because typically you think of chiropractors, you think you know a guy that has back pain goes to a chiropractor, right? Well, you’re a chiropractor sports chiropractor that works with golfers, works with a lot of kids. What does that look like when you bring a kid in and what are some of the reasons why? You know somebody that’s listening, maybe would want their you know, 14 year old to come see somebody like you, even if maybe they don’t have pain or discomfort or things like that.

0:15:10 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so you know well, 13, 14, 15 year olds just entering high school. A lot of the golfers I work with they want to. You know they want to hit the ball further nowadays. Definitely that’s part of the game now hitting the ball further as they’re entering high school. The big aspect is just getting stronger. They’re gonna naturally get a little stronger as they get older, but strength is key and for those golfers we work on basic body motions and movements and you know we’re not doing a whole lot of weight here but we’re gradually stepping it up, progressing forward with strength, and so those game plans are a little bit different than someone that’s 35, 40 years plus that has some other past medical history going on. So, like you said, these golfers that are younger usually don’t have a whole lot of past medical history there and there trying to hit the ball further, get a little stronger and improve speed, power, strength, time, speed. So working on strength, working on speed, you’re gonna improve power and that’s the primary focus for those golfers and we’re already seeing, you know, huge improvement for the golfers I work with right now.

So kind of veering into the 35, 40 year old plus golfers that I work with all skill levels. That’s where past medical history takes a little bit of a bigger play into the picture. So with the start of every session we go through past medical history and figure out, you know, any limitations before we go through the assessment. And that’s huge for the treatment side but that’s also huge for developing the program and personalized program. And then I can lead into a little bit the assessment. So with the assessment I look at mobility, I look at stability, I look at power and then I also take a look at their swing as well. So those four components we combine with these golfers goals to create a personalized program. So most of the goals are hitting the ball further and pain-free golf. Those are the biggest ones. But some people want to improve this mobility and we kind of veer that program towards what they want. So in regards to golfers, with the assessment we figure out mobility limitations, where what is moving well with the body, what’s not moving well, and that will also be able to tell us what are the stable parts of the body as well.

Power assessment we’ll do a warm-up, we’ll look at upper body power, core power and lower body power. A lot of times you can kind of with doing this with a lot of people. You can tell right off the bat in regards if we need to improve different areas of power. The last component is the swing aspect. So we’ll look at some swing speed, but we’ll also look at how the movement of their swing looks. So I can compare it to the assessment and like okay, so for instance, they don’t have external rotation of their right shoulder for right hand to golfer. If we look at their swing, they’re bringing the club back here. They have no external rotation. They’re gonna be very laid off low, maybe come from the inside out and little aspects like that really correlate and it all makes sense and describing this to the golfer afterwards and they understand where I’m coming from, what we’re seeing in the assessment and what the clear picture of the game plan is moving forward.

0:18:29 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s awesome when you bring them in and you’re looking at those things and, speaking from my own personal experience, it’s really cool when you can kind of show them like, hey, here’s what we see on your physical screen and maybe even before you do any kind of a swing assessment or anything like, here’s what we’re seeing Now, let’s just see how that plays out a little bit later, if it does at all, and then, like you just start to see like these light bulbs turn on in their head. Are there any kind of like low hanging fruit or low hanging fruit or like really common things that you tend to see in that demographic? Are there certain parts of the body that you kind of have seen Like, yeah, there’s a lot of patterns here.

0:19:08 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Definitely so. If someone comes in, for instance, with SI joint dysfunction or SI joint pain, a lot of times, most of the time, early extension is a big aspect of the SI joints so they’re not able to fully turn their pelvis. A lot of times they try to stand up or really extend their golf swing. So early extension is huge. So pelvic rotation is part of the assessment that I see probably failed the most and I don’t like the word fail. It’s a limitation that we can improve. It’s not going to be a fail all the time. We’re there to improve it and have the body move the most efficient as possible for the golfer. So I would say hip mobility.

I primarily look at internal rotation. Just with, for instance, a right hand golfer, the backswing right hip internal follow through, you’re posting up on that left side. So internal rotation is huge. I find limitation with a lot of people with internal rotation. That could be so with the assessment, two different types. So, for instance, if we’re looking at lower quarter rotation, which is internal rotation of the hips, if someone’s not able to perform that motion, I actually check passively as well to make sure if there’s a true limitation in that motion.

0:20:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So for instance Can you explain that a little bit, what that means? Passively versus.

0:20:28 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Versus active. So active is with the lower quarter rotation, the patient. I’m not doing anything. The patient will actively try to rotate their hip into internal rotation and there’s a specific movement for that with the assessment. So they’re actively moving their muscles, contracting their muscles to get in that motion. So I assess where they’re able to go with that degree wise and then on the table, my chiropractic table, I check passively so that the patient’s not moving their leg at all.

I’m passively moving their leg into that internal rotation and I compare if it’s the same or if it’s different. So for instance, if the golfer actively say, goes you know 40 degrees of internal rotation and I’m able to passly go into 60 degrees, then we know they don’t necessarily have a limitation. They have a mind-body connection limitation where I love those, where you know, do specific movements, golfers really able to get into those motion right off the bat, great. And then, for instance, stops, a case where if it’s 40 degrees of internal rotation, passively only able to get to 40, they have a true limitation and most of the time it’s muscular related, but sometimes it could be osteology and the bone where you know it’s gonna be a little bit tougher to get that internal rotation. Just wanna go into that a little bit.

0:21:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So, yeah, yeah, I think that’s really important to distinguish is the fact that you can actually have the range of motion in your body, but you’re not executing it in your activity that you’re doing right. So, in your golf swing. So like you physically can do it. So if Dr Zach has you laying on the table and he’s able to rotate your leg to 60 degrees, but in your swing you’re only rotating your pelvis or your hip to that short or 40 degrees you’re like hey you have it, we just don’t know how to turn it on yet.

So then let’s distinguish between what you would do in a situation like that. So in one situation you’ve got somebody. They’re just stuck Like right. They don’t have that full range of motion, they’re at 40 degrees, they’re stuck, but we want to get them to 50, 60, whatever it might be. What does it look like for that patient or client versus somebody that you’re like? No, you got it. We just need to kind of figure out how to make you use it, definitely so, the two different avenues.

0:22:47 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So in regards to the treatment side for a golfer that is truly limited in that internal rotation, this can be any range of motion shoulder mobility, it could be other aspects or parts of the body as well, but just, for instance, with the hip, I would do more soft tissue therapy. I would really work on the muscles and the tissue in that region to help them improve and loosen up that region. And with that, though, I would add in specific movements to help engage and move into that internal rotation, to add into it For golfers that just have a mind-body connection limitation, where they can get in that motion but they’re not used to really getting in that full range of motion. That’s where really just specific exercises and movements can help them get there. So that’s where I say it’s a little bit better when people have that range of motion but aren’t fully utilizing it. We can get them in there pretty quickly.

0:23:44 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Right, and that’s where. So there’s always this talk about golf and fitness and where do the exercises come in and how much should be golf-ish and how much should not be. But I think this is the exact specific point where being able to identify, like, the reason we’re doing this exercise, the reason we’re going into this motion, is not just because we want to make it look like a golf swing, it’s because we’re trying to get your body to be able to feel this position or move in this position Exactly, but knowing that you have that motion like, okay, we can do this. It’s not just let’s grab a cable and let’s start rotating, because I’m a golf fitness guy and that’s what we do. We just rotate, right.

0:24:25 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah.

0:24:27 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I would think that the other individual that has the limited hip or they have the actual physical limitation. This, to me, would be where, like your expertise, really makes such a big difference for some of these people.

0:24:43 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yes, definitely so. Just knowing the anatomy in that region as well, and a few other soft tissue techniques play well in these cases for sure, and this is again, it’s in combination of the exercise portion as well. So that’s where I like to utilize both chiropractic care, soft tissue therapy past modality and these techniques. There’s a few techniques I can name, but all of them are trying to. They have the same goal in mind. So, yeah, so.

0:25:15 – Jeff Pelizzaro
How do we so? First of all, you know when people think chiropractor or at least that’s changing now as far as, like they used to think chiropractor oh, crack your neck, snap your back and move on. Come back next week right. So do you do much of the how would you describe it to the layperson? Subluxation, or.

0:25:38 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Manual adjustment, manual therapy or manual manipulation, so adjustment would be easy term. So for instance, for a golfer, if we’re doing an assessment T-spine rotation so thoracic spine rotation we’re looking for at least past 45 degrees bilaterally. If someone’s coming in and they have no past medical history of the thoracic spine, everything’s green light, no red flags, and they’re limited in T-spine rotation. Well, that’s where I’ll combine my chiropractic care knowledge, chiropractic knowledge along with exercise to help improve that. So we would adjust T-spine, we would go in and do a short little assessment of chiropractic wise, but our goal is to help gain a little bit more motion in those joints. So the spines made up of many different joints that could connect bone to bone, basically with the disc in there, and if we can create more motion in those joints along with these exercises, it’s going to have the optimal outcome and benefit for the golfer.

0:26:36 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that’s the key right.

It is creating motion but then backing up, backing up and fortifying it with your ability to strengthen, and I think that that’s where you know there’s.

It’s great we have a chiro and a PT in the same room together and we do get along right and people think that natural enemies.

But I think that that’s kind of initially where some of the differences occurred, where, like, the PT’s were always kind of the exercise rehab.

You guys were always a lot more of the manual therapy and the adjustments. And now what I’m seeing is there a lot more crossover, not so much as far as the adjustments from the physical therapy side and again, I’ve been out of the clinical world for a while but it’s cool to go to these continuing education courses and meet so many different chiro’s and PT’s that have such similar ways of thinking and going through the same you know, education to really learn how the body’s working and you know just seeing what you’re doing with the combination of the manual therapy and being able to first of all relieve ailments but then, you know, really kind of utilize those skills and then back it up and work on strengthening and training and doing those things. So I assume a lot of your clients patients will you know, go home with some sort of homework or exercises or posture drills, or you know what are some of the biggest things that you’re constantly working on, and maybe for the kids and for the adults.

0:28:02 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Well, number one for sure. Nowadays, everyone looking down at their phone anterior head carriage, rolled shoulders forward or anterior, and so a lot of postural exercises. So it’ll be chin retractions, it’ll be working on the rhomboids or the posterior muscles to help with those with the posture. So and I see that across the board for sure, and a lot of kids in school now too, sitting down hunched over I need to do a better job, I think everyone everyone does.

And that’s where simple movements like this that I give golfers, patients and just getting on them daily will really help in the long run.

0:28:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So the consistency is so important. Definitely. I want to take just a second to thank our new partner, which I’m really excited to announce is 1st Phorm. 1st Phorm is a company that is here in St Louis, based in St Louis. It’s a nutritional company that is doing incredible things in the world of nutrition and one of the reasons that we decided to partner with 1st Phorm is obviously we’re very impressed with their dedication to their products and the quality of their products. But really it’s the dedication to them and them helping their customers get real results Aside from just the products.

We got a chance to go and actually visit the facility again here in St Louis and really walk the halls of the corporate offices, but we got to see the manufacturing plan or the warehouse. And it’s not just a place where they’re packaging supplements and shipping them out. It’s a culture, it’s a community and you can see that amongst the employees. You can see that their culture and their core values that are not just pieces of art on their wall. They’re actually living them there and they’re helping to expand those into the community and really that’s why we partnered with 1st Phorm. Obviously, their products are incredible. Otherwise we wouldn’t suggest them either. We use them on a regular basis, so you’re going to be hearing a lot more about their products and what they can do for your fitness, what they can do for your golf game. The protein powders, the multivitamins, the protein sticks, the hydration packets All of those products we’re going to highlight in future episodes.

But we just wanted to really celebrate our new partnership with 1st Phorm. You can go to their website, firstformcom forward slash 18STRONG, and we’re going to be doing a giveaway every single month with anybody that buys through that link. You can go to FirstFormcom that’s P-H-O-R-M dot com. Forward slash 18STRONG. That’ll take you directly to their website and you can check their whole suite of products, including some of their fitness apparel and anything that’s purchased over there. You’re going to be enrolled into our list for our giveaway. Let’s talk a little back pain, because obviously chiropractic and back pain kind of go hand in hand. What do you see, especially with the golfers, as some of the biggest reasons why golfers tend to have back pain?

0:31:01 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so two components. So in regards to putting the T in the ground, in regards to looking at putts, the lumbar spines and the flexion are, I guess, tucked underneath where you’re putting a little bit more pressure on the disc. That’s where you know you could have some disc bowls, potentially disherniation later on, and I see that with a good amount of golfers. Also, though, the second aspect would be the rotational aspect. So usually the trail SI in the low back, that bone back there for right hand to golfer, where you’re pinching it off through your swing, we see a lot of SI joint dysfunction. So there’s different parts though. So especially for SI joint, there’s hypo mobile and hyper mobile. So you got to kind of figure out which one’s what and then it would lead down different path for treatment. So you see, you know, looking at different parts of the spine, I would say a lot of times it’s more low back as opposed to just mid back and cervical spine discomfort with golfers. A lot of times it has to do with core.

Stabilization is huge. I know a lot of people think when I say that they’re like, oh, the core is up here, not back there. If you’re able to really strengthen this region and I’m not talking about crunches all the time, isometric work where you’re in the neutral position, but still strengthening that core. That’s really going to help the whole torso and help that low back. So isometric dead bugs, bird, dogs and people ask as well. They’re very simple at first, but there’s many ways to improve and make it a lot tougher. And then breathing is a big aspect of it as well. So you want to breathe through the stomach as opposed to just breathing right through the chest. You want to make sure you’re expanding throughout the whole region here, not sucking in like a six pack. You want to actually expand out and really brace that region. So just veering off that, I would say isometric core exercises are huge for golfers with low back pain.

0:33:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Going to the breathing a little bit, because that’s become something that I’ve really gotten fascinated with as far as how that can impact your bracing. It can actually impact almost like decompressing the spine a little bit, if done right. What are ways that you have people incorporate the breathing into maybe your training programs and what are some of the other benefits? Or how does it actually work to help brace the back as well as kind of decompress?

0:33:32 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so it’s called intraabdominal pressure. And when, for instance, someone’s in a dead bug position where they’re on their back legs up and they’re just bringing one leg out, one arm out, we really want to focus on the belly, breathing outward, so almost pretend this is a cylinder instead of trying to suck in like a six pack.

You actually want to feel like you’re expanding out and bracing the whole region. So a lot of times when you’re during impact of the golf swing, the pelvis slowly tilts underneath itself and the posterior tilt. Having that brace in there is super important to help support that spine during impact and throughout the golf swing.

0:34:10 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So are you trying to hold that pressure in there as you’re swinging through?

0:34:16 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so usually the motions in regards to we do some kettlebell work, we do some med ball work, obviously the dead bugs and the isometric core incorporating that intraabdominal pressure is huge and we see huge relief and really not just from low back, si joint dysfunction, you know, and overall this could be for the golfer but this is for really any athlete in any sport. Rotational sports huge.

0:34:48 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So what about? Something that I found is the fact that you know we a lot of people will present with back pain and maybe they even have something on an MRI where you know you see some sort of disc herniation or something.

But when you really dig a little deeper, it’s not necessarily the, it’s the result but, it’s maybe not the root cause and it might be coming from other parts of the body that, for one reason or another, where are some of the bigger pieces that you found? Like Greg Rose from TPI always says, like your low back is like the big brother, like other things are working, so the big brother takes on the load, and so you’re ending up loading your back in funky ways in your golf swing and your workouts because you know other things aren’t doing their job.

0:35:33 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Exactly so. The low back definitely takes the brunt of the force in regards to so if someone, a golfer, is not able to fully rotate in their T-spine, if someone has limited hip mobility, a lot of times the area it’s that low back that’s trying to take that and counteract that force and take the brunt of that force. If we improve areas above and below, that usually helps improve that motion and improve that discomfort in that low back. And that’s not only just low back, that’s lower extremity as well, upper extremity, so, for instance, the legs. If you have some knee pain, okay, let’s take a look at the foot, let’s take a look at the hip, not just that source.

0:36:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So yeah, yeah, kind of looking at the whole picture not just one or the other.

0:36:14 – Dr. Zach Cutler
And that kind of leads into why I look at the swing as well. After the assessment. I want to get a picture of how they’re actively swinging the golf club, as opposed to just doing a simple move.

0:36:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I think you mentioned earlier like one of the biggest things that most of us want is more distance right, and distance comes from some more speed. What are ways that you are helping some of the golfers get more speed in their golf swing? Obviously there’s tools like the Super Speed Club, the stack system and just the overspeed training devices, which can be very, very beneficial.

But from more the body perspective, your expertise perspective, what are some of the things that people can do and again that population of guys like me 45, 50, where you kind of expect like, hey, my swing speed is going to go down, but you need to get off the tee box. You’re like man.

0:37:09 – Dr. Zach Cutler
I used to be able to swing faster. Hit it further.

So exactly so when you’re getting a 50-year-old, 50-years-old and plus more past medical history tends to come about. So when we’re trying to improve different areas, you have to take in consideration Instead of you might not be able to do the standard motion that will help improve this aspect, you might have to compensate and veer around it to help and not lead towards that past medical history. So, for instance, with speed, a lot of band work and, like I said, I focus on the upper body, core and lower body for speed. So a lot of band work for upper body, if you want to do pushes and pulls or presses and pulls work in both sides. And then with core, I like to do a lot of banded isolation or oscillation movements where you’re really engaging that core and trying to keep the body stable while moving as fast as possible. It’s a very minimal motion that is actually well done by a lot of golfers I work with, even with past medical history, since we’re not really working the joint, it’s more of just strictly core speed.

There’s many others you incorporate into your program, but I would say the biggest thing for myself and working with a lot of members that are 50-years-old and plus, it’s that past medical history aspect. So it’s very easy coming someone in where they don’t have any hit history with shoulder injury, hip injury, back and we can go right into the motions. I want, as opposed to if we have knee replacements, hip replacements, maybe some back, maybe there’s hardware in the spine fusion, so you’re going to have to veer around that to still try to accomplish that same goal.

0:38:55 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Do you can sway any of those people from any of the overspeed training devices or just kind of teach them how to maybe minimize what their issue or injury might impact?

0:39:09 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah. So in regards to, for instance, a gentleman with some hardware, lower lumbar spine, where we want to have a little bit more rotation in the spine, the hardware leads into more of the T-spine where rotation is going to be a factor. So we’re trying to improve we’re not going to improve T-spine rotation because there’s hardware right in there and we’re not trying to affect anything with that. So we’re going to look at different areas where we’ll work out maybe a little bit more shoulder mobility, a little bit more lat flexibility to get more depth in the backswing, maybe a little bit more internal rotation to that right hip for the right hand golfer. So we’re looking at we can actually compensate a little bit on different areas to improve the same motion or the same goal. And what was the question again?

0:39:58 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Oh, just regarding like over speed training and helping people kind of figure out whether that it’s right for them. It’s not right for them. I don’t know how you feel about it. We approach it. Everybody approaches it a little differently.

0:40:10 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, I think it depends on the type of golfer as well and their goals as well. I mean there’s some people that going through the assessment, everyone moves just a little different length than everyone else and so and it depends on two like past sports they play as well. It might be easier route to get into more of the speed training as opposed to someone that hasn’t really been involved with any sort of power or speed work before. So it might be an easier transition for some people. It might be a little slower from other people and we kind of see how the body really incorporates around that.

0:40:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So that’s a good point. I mean, we’ve I’m sure you’ve had different people that you know. Some are like super coordinated athletic, some or not, and you can’t do the same things with those people you also made the note about. You know, like, if something is, we know that something stuck, like the T-spine that has hardware and sometimes compensation can be a good thing, right, yes, but knowing where that should come from?

0:41:11 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Definitely exactly. So, of course, if we’re limited in T-spine, we want to work on movements for that T-spine because predominantly that motion is rotation in the thoracic spine and, like you said, if there’s any hardware in there that leads into these regions and we can’t improve that range of motion, there can be good compensation on. Okay, let’s, let’s take a look at the shoulder, let’s take a look at the, the lat, and see if we can get a little more depth in that backswing, not just from the T-spine, let’s try to get it up with the shoulders. And that’s where it depends on the person. If they had past shoulder history, medical history, then we’ll have to take it step by step and see what we can do. So, yeah, All right.

0:41:51 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So how’s your game these days? And you’ve been playing a little more competitive stuff and kind of getting back in the in the game.

0:41:58 – Dr. Zach Cutler
And so you know I’m playing college and then went to Logan University for almost four years, three and a half years, and so played here and there a little bit more not as hectic, you know, not not qualifying all this stuff. So more for fun golf and getting back into it now. Currently, metropolitan Golf Association and Missouri Golf Association hold a lot of great events in the area, in the metro area, along with the whole state of Missouri. Thank you, yeah, getting back into it, sitting at a 0.3 right now.

So, you know, trying to get back a little bit better. But you know I’m pleased, you know, and that’s for two the golf side of it as well, then the golf experience and incorporating that with my chiropractic knowledge, working with these golfers has been huge and people really, really enjoy that.

0:42:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So yeah, I mean just being able to. Well, first of all, I’m sure that your clients are excited to kind of watch what you’re doing. You know when you go out and play like they’re excited to see how you did, but you know being able to talk the language, being able to understand what they’re talking about. When they go out and they come back and tell you how great they shot or how terrible they shot, what would you say are some of the biggest things that have impacted your golf game from your personal career, knowing what you do. Now you know maybe what would you have liked to instilled in younger Zach that you now know and you’re like, hey, this is a big deal and this is either helping or that was hurting.

0:43:29 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Definitely so. When I was in high school, leading into college, I definitely wish I went through this TPI process and really got to know how my body moves and what exactly you know what a personalized program for myself would look like. I wasn’t as knowledgeable back then, with that Understandable high school going into college not really sure what I’m doing. But now, knowing all this and continuing to learn, I’m incorporating into my workout programs and I’m incorporating into my golf game and you know I see results. So the biggest thing right now in college, my driving wasn’t the most, it wasn’t the best aspect of my game, it was more a short game. Now I’m actually incorporating a little bit more power moves into my workouts and hitting the ball actually further now than I did ever I did in college so, and it just makes it more exciting and more fun as well.

0:44:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
so what did your training program in college look like? Did you guys have a dedicated coach for the team?

0:44:34 – Dr. Zach Cutler
We had a strength and conditioning coach, not specifically for golf, it was a combination of a few other teams in college, so we did a lot of core work, we did a lot of legs, but it wasn’t totally designed for golf and that’s where I wish, you know, the knowledge I know now I could really help out. Thankfully, since then they’ve kind of re-amped the system in their strength and conditioning program that it’s veered more around TPI and exactly on what each golfer needs, and the team has really improved even since I’ve been there. So it’s really cool to see this stuff works. I incorporated my workouts and my routine and it shows results for sure.

0:45:21 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Practice wise. Since you have this facility at your disposal pretty much, you know what does it look like. Are you able to get out and actually put some practice and time then out there. Or I mean, I know you’re running crazy with sessions and clients and stuff like that too.

0:45:34 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So a lot of people think I have all the time to practice and this and that which. It’s a great facility, but definitely busy up in the office. And during lunch I try to go down the track man’s hit some golf balls and get some numbers that way. But most of the practicing is usually done on, usually in the evenings after I’m done with work and on the weekends. But I’ll try to get out when I can, so that’s for sure.

0:46:02 – Jeff Pelizzaro
It’s funny. We were talking about this big Nashville trip that we have coming up and I’ve got a buddy that’s coming in from LA to go on the trip and we haven’t seen each other in a long time. I think we’ve only played golf with each other maybe once a decade ago and we’re trying to figure out. I’m like what’s your handicap? And he doesn’t have one. And I’m like all right, we gotta get you sorted out. And he’s like what’s yours? And I’m like I’m a 12. He’s like, really. I’m like I’m perfect proof that working in the world of golf doesn’t mean that you play a lot of golf.

And I think that probably pull any of the instructors over at FGLC and they’ll probably all say the same thing Like we’re working here all day, the last thing we’re doing is spending a ton of time. So for all of you out there that have friends that are golf instructors or golf fitness pros like realize that many times it’s working with the golfers most of the time and rarely is it us getting out, and so hopefully we’re trying to practice what we preach, but it doesn’t always happen that way 100%, 100%.

0:46:59 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So and I wanna go back to like in regards to thankful with my golf game and getting into that where it’s been now and along the help with my family, my friends, but also Nathan Carnes, pga secretary now. He’s been a huge help with junior golf and my tournaments growing up. So he’s over here at Wing Haven Country Club and a great person and a good golfer himself, so he’s been a huge influence growing up for sure.

0:47:30 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What do you have on your golf radar? Any trips, anything like that coming up soon?

0:47:34 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so I have a trip with a couple golfers I work with, along with some family friends, and we’re gonna go to TPCD Run in two weekends and play there for a couple rounds and love that course, for the John Deere Classic is at not only a few hours away from here. So that’s the last really trip for this year and hopefully we can get out a little bit more next year.

0:47:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool. Do you have an epic round that you remember as like your best day on the course? You’re kind of like blackout mode and went crazy.

0:48:07 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Definitely so, actually that second round of the USAM qualifier.

0:48:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
so Good place to have it.

0:48:14 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, and I’ve shot 66 a couple times, but this one was definitely the best. So nine birdies, six under 66, but it kind of hurts me a little bit. Remember I double bogeyed that last hole so it was close. But you know, and that’s where the experience of that eight hole playoff I you know, looking back at it now I mean that was huge. So just the mental aspect of it and just keeping in that grind so helps me not only for golf but also for, you know, my job and work and life and everything.

0:48:47 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So mm-hmm Cool. All right, brother, we’re gonna finish up with our traditional questions here at 18STRONG. So first one Caddy Shaker, happy Gilmore.

0:48:55 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Happy Gilmore. Yes.

0:48:57 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Hockey background young guy, that’s kind of the 100% the pattern that I typically see One of the movies you grew up watching, or A little bit, you know, not too often I actually.

0:49:09 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So yes, golf, but I’m a big miracle fan. So the hockey team there, usa, so that’s definitely a big part of it. But happy Gilmore, definitely the hockey side of it I enjoy.

0:49:22 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So All right, so you can pick your walkup song. What’s your walkup song to the first tee box?

0:49:28 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So growing up it was hockey locker room kind of pump up music and some rap, some EDM. So now it’s actually by, I think, drake, and a little baby wants and needs it’s called, so you should play it sometime. It’s a good one so.

0:49:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I’ll have to ask my 15 year old son, yep yep, to play that with him. Side question I didn’t prep you with this one Hockey. Being a hockey player, what’s your favorite hockey movie of all time?

0:49:54 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Hockey movie. Oh a miracle. Yeah, that’s for sure. Sorry, you said that, Yep.

0:49:59 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Any, have you ever seen the movie Youngblood?

0:50:02 – Dr. Zach Cutler
I haven’t. I’ve heard of it. Okay, all right, I have homework for you, okay, okay.

0:50:06 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Sounds good. Sorry, I had. Youngblood on the mind and I knew you just said miracle, but I basically wanted to get to Youngblood.

0:50:13 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yep, yep.

0:50:14 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right. Is there a book that has meant a lot to you, something that you’ve read and that you’ve learned a lot of lessons from, or that you tend to really recommend to people? Golf wise, life wise.

0:50:25 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so this would definitely be more life wise, not just golf wise, and I think you can take different aspects of it of how you want, but a pretty well-known book Rich Dad, poor Dad and there’s so many different aspects of that book that you can take away into your own life and anyone’s life and it really opens up your eyes and your mind about things and I think that can really help you move forward and keep progressing onward.

0:50:53 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Cool, still trying to get my son to read that one.

0:50:57 – Dr. Zach Cutler
So it’s huge now, audiobooks I read the book, the hard cover of it, but audiobooks now driving around pop it on in the car and that’s been huge for me as well.

0:51:09 – Jeff Pelizzaro
so road trips huge Ride along university all right. All right. If you could pick a dream for some anybody in the world past present, who would that be?

0:51:19 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, I would probably do. I would probably have Rory Macaroy, tiger and my dad.

0:51:28 – Jeff Pelizzaro
probably would be the four of us, yeah, so All right, so say, we have the 18STRONG Jet, we’ve got it fueled up, ready to go. Your bucket list course that you’re like, I’m going there today.

0:51:41 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Mm-hmm. So it’s actually believe it or not like a tough one between, and pretty common, st Andrews or Augusta, so that’s probably pretty common.

0:51:52 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean, there’s many courses that I would like to play, but those are the two main ones for sure I’m giggling, because we recently had a guest in here and I said all right, you can pick your bucket list, but it can’t be St Andrews, can’t be Augusta.

0:52:07 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Because I know everybody wants that one.

0:52:08 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So if you, had to pick a third one. What’d you think?

0:52:11 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Oh, let’s probably. It would be neat to play, probably Pebble Beach. Yeah yeah, pebble Beach yeah, I would say that so. Or maybe Shadow Creek. So Most expensive golf course on the planet, I would say so.

0:52:33 – Jeff Pelizzaro
All right, is there a social media account that you’ve really been digging lately? Doesn’t have to be golf, can be anything but that. You would say like hey, you guys should go follow this account for whatever reason. Funny, you get good info whatever you like for.

0:52:46 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so I’m kind of getting more into the social media side in regards to following accounts, and I like to follow a lot more of business and finance accounts, not only just golf, fitness and golf accounts, but there are a few out there that I enjoy looking at and it’s more of just like personal finance. It’s a podcast as well. It has its own Instagram account. I believe personal finance podcast would be it so, and that’s more just life and learning about finance, about business, any business, and I think that’s huge.

0:53:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So yeah, as a entrepreneur, business owner, it makes a ton of sense. All right, last one what’s the best piece of golf advice that you’ve ever been given?

0:53:30 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Definitely. So all of it have fun, definitely. And I got into a point where I feel like a lot of golfers do, where you’re working hard, trying hard, you get on the course and it’s not really going how you want and you’re getting frustrated and you’re out here playing golf and you have fun. You’re out here, you’re supposed to enjoy this and I think once people realize you’re on the course, you have fun, you loosen up, you’re actually gonna play your best golf as opposed to being in your head.

0:54:04 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So I would say have fun. Great advice, all right. Where’s the best place for people to go find you? Follow what you’re doing. I know you’re putting a lot of stuff on social media. Now these guys are getting it rolling.

0:54:14 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, so at FGLC Performance it’s on Instagram and then Facebook. Dr Zach Cutler on Facebook, so it kind of goes hand in hand. Put a lot of movement videos on there as well, a lot of videos in regards to what we’re doing in the office and treatment-wise, how we correlate things, and that’s probably the biggest platform I would say. I would say Instagram. So, yeah, awesome.

0:54:43 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Well, dr Zach, thank you for coming on, really appreciate your time and I loved it. Your servicing the people of St Louis in the golf world. It’s cool to have somebody here that to be able to collaborate with and work with, and I’ve heard such great things about the work that you’re doing and just the mission of helping golfers get stronger, play better and just be the best Tain free golf.

0:55:05 – Dr. Zach Cutler
Yeah, 100%, all right. Thanks brother, awesome appreciate it.

0:55:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Thanks for listening to the 18STRONG podcast. Don’t forget to go follow us over on Instagram at 18strong, and if you found this episode helpful and wanna help us spread the 18STRONG mission, we’d really appreciate if you shared with your friends. Train hard, practice smart and play better golf.

Guest: Marty Jertson (PING Director of Product Development, The Stack System Co-Creator)
Host: Jeff Pelizzaro
Episode Number: 356
Podcast: The 18STRONG Podcast
Partners: Linksoul, 1stPhorm

Have you ever wondered how the best golf clubs are designed and manufactured? Marty Jertson, Director of Product Development at Ping and co-founder of the Stack System, joins me in this episode to shed some light on this. Marty takes us through his journey from being a professional golfer to developing high-quality golf products. He shares the behind-the-scenes of product manufacturing and the importance of data in creating golf clubs that enhance player performance.

Our conversation ventures into the transformative impact of the Moneyball revolution on golf. We explore how analytics, combined with on-course data, have revolutionized club fitting and design. Marty also shares insights on the crucial aspect of club gapping and its role in determining the distance-accuracy ratio. But it doesn’t end there! We dive into the world of individualized speed training, discussing the benefits it offers to golfers of all ages, and how the Stack System has helped thousands improve their game.

We wrap up the chat with Marty reminiscing about his family golf experiences and revealing the best piece of golf advice he’s ever received. If you’re a golf enthusiast or a professional in the game, this episode is a treasure trove of knowledge and tips to improve your game. So, grab your headphones, and let’s tee off this fascinating conversation with Marty Jertson.

(00:03) Golf Product Development and Stack System

Marty Jertzen discusses product development at Ping, the Stack System, the 2018 PGA Championship, and his experience using the Stack System at the 2019 PGA Championship.

(08:09) Golf Club Design and Engineering Journey

Marty Jertzen’s journey to Ping, engineering degree, professional golf, product design, manufacturing process and data, American manufacturing, and golf club physics and design were discussed.

(21:41) Prioritizing Problems and Golf Equipment Recommendations

Ping uses data to prioritize goals, custom fit clubs, and analyze distance and accuracy for golfers.

(26:58) Club Fitting and Shaft Selection Importance

Club fitting, product engineering, controlling misses, club head and shaft differences, and individual force and torque are discussed.

(36:48) Improve Golf Performance With Strength Training

Marty Jertzon’s Stack System, developed with Dr. Sasha McKenzie’s research, has revolutionized golf with on-course data and custom fitting.

(43:53) The Concept of Individualized Speed Training

The Stack System offers 30 combinations of weights, personalized programs, and hands-free training with progress tracking.

(49:21) Golf Speed Training Benefits for All

Speed training offers golfers a low-risk way to lower their handicap, with the Stack System showing great results for all ages, even over 40.

(55:49) Improving Golf Speed and Stack Putting

Stack Putting helps golfers improve their game with analytics, guidance, and structured practice plans.

(01:02:40) Golf With Family and Favorite Courses

Marty Jertzen shares his golf experience, recommends Data Golf, and offers the best advice, all found online with The Stack System.

(01:07:28) Discussing Fitness and Golf Training

Marty discusses club fitting, strength, and vertical force, Stack System hardware and software, speed training, and Stack Putting App.

The Stack System (Get 10% off with code: “18STRONG”)

PING

LINKSOUL: For your 20% discount on LINKSOUL gear, go to 18strong.com/linksoul or click the logo above.

1st Phorm: Try any of the 1st Phorm products with FREE SHIPPING, go to 1stphorm.com/18strong.com (By using this link, you will be entered into our Monthly 1st Phorm Giveaway!)

To continue the conversation and ask any questions you may have, head over to the 18STRONG Movement group on Facebook.

18STRONG Pro Shop (Get your 18STRONG gear!)

18STRONG Resources (All of the cool stuff we recommend: products, books, golf stuff, etc – and discount codes for the 18STRONG Crew)

0:00:03 – Jeff Pelizzaro
The 18STRONG Podcast, episode Number 356 with Marty Jertson, director of Product Development at Ping and co-founder of the Stack System. What’s up, guys? Welcome back to the 18STRONG Podcast, where we’re here to help you build a stronger game, because we believe that everyone deserves to play better, longer. This week, I’m super excited about our episode with the Director of Product Development at Ping, Marty Jertson, who is also the co-founder of the Stack System with Dr Sasho McKenzie. So in this episode, we’re talking not only about the product development and everything that Ping does to make some of the greatest golf clubs on the planet. We talk about club bidding, we talk about data and how they use that data to develop different clubs to improve every single year, but then we talk about the Stack System and building speed. You’ve probably heard of the Stack System because of guys like Matthew Fitzpatrick and seeing the speed that he’s gained and him winning the US Open and that becoming a big talk of conversation with being able to gain speed even at the highest of levels. Well, the stack is one of the reasons behind that gain in speed, and there’s over 30,000 golfers on the planet now using the Stack System. So, no matter what level you are utilizing the Stack System to gain speed, to gain distance and really more control over your game. So we talk about that with Marty. We talk about his game. He’s played in multiple PGA championships and PGA level tournaments, and this product was really designed because he noticed himself not being able to hang with the guys on the tour. And that’s really where the story starts with the Stack System. So you’re really going to enjoy this episode and we’ll get into it right after this.

Our partners over at Lynxhole have been providing us with the best apparel for both on the course and off the course, from polos to t-shirts like the one I have on right now. Everything that they have is meant to be worn from the golf course to wherever you’re going next, whether that be casual, whether that be to the beach there’s all different options over there. So go to 18strongcom slash Lynxhole. We’ll get 20% off of anything in your cart over on Lynxhole’s website. So again, 18strongcom slash Lynxhole for our favorite brand of apparel for anything on the golf course and off. Now let’s get to this week’s interview. So, Marty, we’re just kind of talking about the 2018 PGA championship here at Bel Rive. I mean, obviously, you have tons of stories there. Tell me. First of all, you were saying that the fans were so great. I love to brag on St Louis, so it was one of the coolest sporting events I’ve been to. But what was your experience? Had you ever been to St Louis before, and how was that event for you?

0:02:54 – Marty Jertson
No, actually I think that in 2018 was my first time to St Louis. I played saw, I think Colistro turned me in around the area. I have a lot of family from Kansas City but it’s a lot. It’s a ways away, obviously, but they came down and went to the event, which was really fun. But of all the PGA’s I played in, I think the crowd was the most like electric there. Like, I think, because golf you know, big golf doesn’t come to St Louis and in that area that all and I think that’s one of the reasons the PGA of America loved having it there at Bel Rive and the crowd was electric and there were so many kids. I remember like it’s fun for me because I’m just a working guy, like normal guy, like who somebody wants your autograph. It was fun for me being around some of our other pink tour players, like Fee Down, some of these guys and so many kids there, so family oriented, so many kids there. The crowd was just super into the goal. So it was very refreshing. I had a great time.

0:03:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
My nephew. He was there Tuesday. We were talking about how it, you know, rained a ton on Tuesday but got kids were there, like you said, to go get autographs and get things done. They stuck around as long as they possibly could. He’s got a flag with I don’t know how many different names on it and he stuck around and I think Kepka was like one of the last guys to come through so he got Kepka’s name on. It ends up going on a win, and so you know he was. He was super happy, but I mean just the whole, like you said, the electricity of the event, tiger Woods being there. Obviously, from what I, from what I heard, I wasn’t there on Sunday, but they said that on Sunday it was like hearing thunder, like just all the people running from one spot to another with with Tiger, and you made the cut that weekend. You played all four rounds that weekend. Could you, could? I mean, were you out there for any of that? Could you hear it? Could you feel it?

0:04:42 – Marty Jertson
So that actually is. So I made the cut in 19 at Beth page. But this is part of the story, because in 18, this part of my story was in 18, I played at Belle Reeve and I got up here with Luke Lewis and he obviously he’s been playing great lately but he gets the ball so far he was hitting it even further than it and I was kind of like demoralized by my distance in 18 and it was Belle Reeve was kind of soft, so he was all carry and distance mattered a ton that week as well as, like your precision iris play. And so the next I worked on some things to gain a lot of distance and I re qualified for the community championship at Beth page.

This kind of relates to Tiger, cause I did play all four rounds of Beth page when I made the cut and I was two groups behind Tiger. So I teed off two groups behind Tiger and anyone on tour is like hey, you either want to be playing with Tiger or you want to be at least two groups away, Cause if you’re in the group of head or the group behind, the crowds are all coming in to get get their spot, or if you’re in the group behind. Everyone’s like trailing away. So actually it was perfect because I got to experience the Tiger Roars, cause he actually he missed the cut at Beth page but he made an eagle whatever he’d make a birdie. It was just like electric the Roars. There’s nothing like that. It was fun to actually be playing in the event in this close proximity, when we experienced a little bit of that, that’s.

0:06:11 – Jeff Pelizzaro
that’s so amazing. How many PGA championships have you played in?

0:06:15 – Marty Jertson
I’ve played in five PGA championships and one us open, so six majors total.

0:06:22 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Okay, and now? Are you a PGA professional, pga instructor, or is that? How did you get into the PGA championship?

0:06:31 – Marty Jertson
Yeah. So yes, I am a, I’m in. I think my whole job and career is kind of like a mystery. Sometimes I even have a hard time describing it. But yes, I am a PJ of America member. So I think most PJ of America members the most common is you work at a golf course HintPro, thapro, assistantpro, gm, that type of thing.

But you can be a PJ member and work in other avenues, like I think you know, mike Small, the golf coach at Illinois. He’s a PJ member. You’re allowed to be a golf coach. You got to kind of be employed anywhere in the industry. So you know, I in my role at Ping, I’m able to be a PJ member through one of the classifications there and then obviously now also have a Speed Training Aid company, the stack system. So both of those kind of qualify to be a working professional golfer and it’s kind of like getting your masters in the golf industry. Actually, the education process to become a PJ member is pretty rigorous. Takes most folks, you know, three to five years to kind of go through the whole bookwork, education, certification process.

0:07:37 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Now. So let’s go back to kind of your history, because you went to engineering school, mechanical engineering degree, colorado School of Miners. Is it minors or mines?

0:07:47 – Marty Jertson
Mines minors school mines yeah.

0:07:50 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Very, I heard you talk about this on the show with with your buddy, sleaze and Colt and kind of dove deep into your past. But give us a little background on. You know what took you to engineering school, what then got you into, you know, going on to the golf path and actually getting into having a career in the world of golf.

0:08:09 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, I mean, I think with a lot of kind of folks that do interesting things, like there’s, there’s luck along the way, you know, and knowing that you know me, the right person at the right time, or one little micro decision that sends you down a path. So I think my journey is very much like that, like I was a pretty good junior golfer, but not great right In songs, always kind of this. You know, on the fringe of oh man, I should go try to play for a big D1 school and commit to golf. And I think in the back of my head I was like I’m just not as good as some of these other kids that are kicking my butt and all the junior tournament. So I had to make that decision. Should I go try to play for a D1 team and not do engineering because the coaches won’t let you but it’s just not allowed. I don’t know what it’s like now. Or should I go to you know a better academic school where I could still play golf but make golf the number two priority? And that’s what I chose to do Chloro School, mines Now their academic program is amazing.

They have the number one football team. D2 right now in the golf program is phenomenal. So I was kind of at the beginning of that ramping the golf team up from you know kind of like a hobby golf team to now we’re a legitimate team. That’s, if you’re in, want to do math, science, engineering and you also want to play golf, it’d be an awesome place to look at. So that’s kind of how I ended up there and I grew up in a small mining town copper mining town, and so a lot of the you know kind of folks that ran the mines in my town were alumni from the Colorado School Mines. That’s how I, that’s how I knew about the school and had a great time with their way of D2 golf and and spent the summers in Colorado and and that kind of shaped my future of you know, getting a little bit better at golf through college and.

But then I kind of graduated from school and I was faced with decision like, do I do my engineering degree or do I play professional golf? And I gave from golf, you know, a run for about a year and I think I realized that the math just is not on your side. As a mining tour golfer. I realized, not faster than a load of my friends, and then it kind of got in the door and been doing my thing here ever since.

0:10:23 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What did you start? What was your first role at Ping?

0:10:27 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, it was kind of like a sort of like an intern, so to speak, even though I’d already graduated and I helped set up. You know Ping is very committed to making product in American manufacturing Super fun. We have about 800 employees here at our campus and a majority of those, the biggest chunk of those is manufacturing jobs. They’re building the gold books that you’re getting, and so we have, you know, 350, 400 employees that are doing that assembly, work, the loft and lie the gripping, the epoxy, the custom waiting, all that stuff. So my first job was working on the assembly line doing manufacturing, engineering, what’s called lean manufacturing, taking some things from like the Toyota way and how Toyota builds product in Japan and bringing some of those lean manufacturing techniques that allows us. The end goal is we can build a driver that goes into our manufacturing line and exits it about 30 minutes later. It’s literally drawing, while it’s in transit, out to the customer.

So, where before that, it took, like you know, days to build one driver.

0:11:34 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And then did you soon thereafter get into the designing portion of the clubs, or is that something that you kind of have to work your way into and is that something that you were really excited about doing, or you’re just kind of like I’m at Ping, we’ll see what happens, and go from there?

0:11:50 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, I think the design part was super intimidating to me. Like it was like how is this done? I had a little bit of what’s called count or 3D design experience, but that seemed very daunting to me to learn a new skill. It was scary, like I didn’t know if I had the belief in myself that I could actually do that one day. Right, I was kind of interested in it, but I’ve always kind of, I think, like a lot of folks out there like questioning, like can I do that? And so, yeah, I was brought in and it’s very much when you do it, when you become a product designer.

In our culture we kind of have like to have an apprenticeship model, because there’s the learning curve is so steep and you cannot learn this in school. Like, I think that’s one of the big conclusions you go to school to learn baseline things, foundational things, but every but when you get out of school the real learning starts, right, I think that’s, you know, a big thing I’ve learned over the years. So it was a. It was very daunting to learn that and I had some great mentors that taught me the ropes of the foundational pieces, the design product, and then a really big learning curve to get good at the 3D design and I spent a lot of time where my brain was thinking and seeing every little object I saw how would I create that in 3D? And so there was.

There was quite a few years of my life behind the computer doing a lot of 3D work and trying to really get good at the CAD side. And you have to marry that with the with the physics side. There’s tons of golf physics that goes into it. So yeah, I kind of I kind of apprenticed into that design role and started to slowly take on more and more projects and gain confidence, because I didn’t really I kind of struggled with that at the beginning, that you know kind of a lot of that self doubt. And then my confidence got higher and I started to become more interested in things beyond club head design, shafts, grips, friction span, wedge and putters, club fitting, and now it’s kind of been the basis of. I think you know how my career has evolved over. You know now 20 years doing it.

0:13:56 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What was the first club that you had a piece of like from start to finish?

0:14:02 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, the first one where I was like you know that was exciting time. But a high pressure time is when you get your first official project and you are literally the chief engineer, like you’re in charge of everything the graphics, how it looks, the manufacturing kind of, you know, cost optimization side of things, durability testing, player testing, performance testing. And the first one was the Rapture hybrid. Really cool. It kind of paired with our for the gold enthusiasts out there, historians our Rapture driver, which had composite in it, was our first driver that had composite back there in the in around like 2000, five, six time frame. And so I designed is the early days of hybrids.

So you know there wasn’t like a rule, there wasn’t a playbook to follow. You had to kind of pioneer what the shape should be, how it should spin, the loss and materials. And I designed this really cool multi-material construction, tungsten, sole plate, high strength face all welded together. You could loft in Lyon and this type of thing. And it was, it was. It was super fun seeing that club out in retail in the golf shops for the first time. I’ll never forget, you know, working on that one.

0:15:17 – Jeff Pelizzaro
When you’re you know there’s so many things I would assume that you can put into a club.

You’re talking about the different medals and and ways to to piece these things together, and I mean the chemistry of it. I mean I don’t even know where to begin asking how, how you start to come up with different, different ideas of how do we make these clubs better. I mean, obviously, year after year after year after year, you guys are coming up with new technology, different ways to to make a club better, but then also I’m assuming, there’s quite a few regulations you have to stay within and you know you have to be attentive to, you know what are the rules, what’s USGA approved or what you know. How do you first even kind of start looking at okay, here’s what we have right now, like your current clubs right now. Is it something that you guys are thinking about All right now? How do we, what are we going to do next? Is it? Is it that simple, like just starting with that question and then, or is it gradually kind of improving on what’s already out there?

0:16:17 – Marty Jertson
That’s just a great framework and I think the questions that you asked are a lot of like golf consumers think about like, what are we doing? What are we doing over here? That’s exactly the problem, you know, and I think paying is is a very fun place to work and our team is super talented and we have a great kind of core mission, which is don’t get too hyper focused on the technology side. Stay very focused on defining the problem that the golfer is facing. What is the pain point, right? And so instead of sitting down saying, hey, we need to implement this technology, we at first sit down and say what problem are we trying to solve? What is the pain point for the golfer? Like in some of them can be very simple like we need more ball speed. Right, for the driver to go further, we need more ball speed. Do we need this driver to spin more, spin less? Do we need it to be more forgiving? What is? Then we go into what is the technical definition of forgiveness, like, what is forgiveness? Oh, we need the ball speed to higher at all portions around the face. We need impacts low on the face to be more similar in distance as hits high on the face. And then we say, well, how can we do that? Okay, well, we can make the moment of inertia higher or we can change the face curvature. What levers do we have to pull on? And so we start always start at the problem for the golfer and work back towards what is the technology that we can use to solve those problems. And Ping’s been super committed to that and I think it’s really paid off to help our brand be such a good long term brand that some years were bringing enormous innovations to the market, like turbulent and you talked about Jeff.

One one question is I think a lot of people are thinking the exact same thing as yours oh, they’re all regulated right. Like well, one of the ways to force an engineer to be creative is to put a wall in front of them Because you’re forced into creativity. Engineers and designers a lot of times struggle If things are too open ended like it, like if you have no rules or no regulations. Sometimes that would be harder than no one you got to play within this box. I can kind of sneak around over here, sneak a little performance over here.

Turbulent is a perfect example that there’s no USG regulation on how aerodynamically efficient you can make a driver right. There’s no that. Now they do have regulations on features and where you can put features and the size and shape. So I think that’s a great example of cracking the code. On having a driver that’s very big but it’s aerodynamic, it’s dry coefficient is like we have a driver that’s super small, right. So that’s a way that that’s one example where we can kind of have an innovation that’s not even in the spout and being regulated, and then we have some really strong patents on that and protected things that nature.

0:19:19 – Jeff Pelizzaro
So the Turbulent? What exactly is a Turbulent?

0:19:24 – Marty Jertson
That’s a great question.

It is what it sounds like it. Is it Turbulents there? No, I’m just kidding. So it’s these tiny little. Well, they’re not tiny, the size and shape of them are very exact, but they’re little ridges right on the crayon of the driver. So that’s where the face meets the top of the driver. There’s these ridges, and on our driver we have six of them. What they do is they create a micro layer of Turbulents that takes the airflow. We have some really cool videos that we’ve done in the wing tunnel.

So the airflow going over the top of the meat in the face and joining the crown, it’s very blunt. It’d be like a pickup truck or something To make a driver go be very forgiving. It’s naturally not very aerodynamic, and so what these ridges do is they give the airflow more momentum to stay attached to the crown, because normally you get this vacuum effect. You get a low pressure area that creates like a you can think of it like a vacuum, like sucking the driver back, words the wrong direction, getting a net force on the driver going the wrong direction. And that’s what normally happens if you don’t have Turbulent. It’s like a pickup truck, huge weight back there, sucking the ruin in the gas mileage of the pickup truck.

So what Turbulenters do? They keep that airflow more attached to the crown, give the air momentum and it reduces the drag coefficient significantly. So super cool. We developed that using Flow CFD software, which is like a virtual wind tunnel, and we did a lot of little experiments getting the size, shaped, spacing, contouring. We doing some wind tunnel testing down here at Arizona State University.

0:21:12 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I mean, you guys probably just have the coolest toys to play with ever, I would imagine.

0:21:19 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, we got some good kids. Like we have a really cool Mark Nellis motion capture system which is kind of measures the twisting, drooping, lead lagging, how the shaft bends, basically, if we do that it like on 700, 800 frames a second, it’s kind of got like a live MRI of your Gulf swing. And that’s one of our favorite, favorite research pieces of kit that we have here.

0:21:41 – Jeff Pelizzaro
That’s so awesome. You mentioned that you guys always work from the problem back. What are, what are some of the the top problems that you guys are constantly trying to solve? I’m gonna guess distance accuracy, and you know which one do you guys tend to do? Lean towards one or the other, is it? You know, working on a little bit of everything.

0:21:59 – Marty Jertson
There’s been a big kind of money ball revolution in golf and it kind of goes down to the. The core of it was like a new statistics that showed up in all Cold strokes game and this was originated by kind of a gone father of golf statistics names mark mark Brody and his son, chris Brody works with me and for me. Here is my colleague, but you know solving problems here, so we’re very, very tied to that and I bring that up because it’s helped given a really good Framework on what our priorities are. Shouldn’t we focus more on distance? Should we focus more on accuracy? And the other cool piece that we have access to now is a long of all in course data. So I think that’s one of the coolest things is that People evaluated golf equipment through a custom fitting and then you go play golf and it’s kind of like, okay, good luck, we’ll never see again and see what you need new clubs in three, five years. Those days are kind of gone. Now we can throw things like Arcos, which is you know stats, smart stats, tracking, gps, integrated. We know what clubs you’re hitting when on the golf course, where you might be better or worse. We can start bringing that on course big data into our design and fitting environment and it’s super exciting times, I you know.

Quite frankly, I think we’re just scratching the surface on that front and that’s helping us drive those priorities. Where on the golf course can we help golfers play better golf? So that’s exposing some things like your club gapping, that’s the spacing, the yardage spacing you have between all your clubs. We’re doing some really fun things that are driven by on course data. You know on course play. So I think you know of course we want the driver to go super far. We also wanted to go straight. We’re using really cool analytics to give us that ratio of how much further versus straighter and we actually have that boiled down to like a actual simple ratio. You know if your everyday player should be hitting it further in a ratio of two to one, as Compared to their straightness from up, from a statistical standpoint, stroke being standpoint. And then you know we want the copes to sound good, we want to feel good, and then we’re we’re using on course play data To help prioritize gapping and things of that nature.

0:24:16 – Jeff Pelizzaro
I didn’t realize that you guys had and I should have realized this that you had access to all of that, on course, stuff from Things like Arcos, and that’s amazing to me. That and just I mean goes to show how much is involved in the research that you guys are Doing and really trying to figure out. What are the different gaps? Where do people like me versus you know, super low handicappers? You know, guys like you professionals, when you guys are, I mean, obviously you have such a wide array of products for different levels of golfers. Is there one you know, handicap level or or grouping of handicapped levels that makes up the biggest demographic and does that drive a lot of what you’re doing?

0:24:57 – Marty Jertson
Yeah for sure that’s a great question. Yeah, is that? Bug Ping was founded by, you know, a frustrated, really good smart, frustrated engineer, carson soul, I mean. So he, he kind of solved the problem for himself, which was like he was. He was like a, you know, high-handicap golfer that wanted to get better and the game seemed too hard and he wanted to bring better engineering through the equipment. So we ask ourselves that question a lot.

If, if we could only have one model of product for the entire market, what would it be? And by for that’s like our G series product, like our G430? You know, max driver in our G430 irons. By far that’s kind of like our modern-day I2 and for those that golf historians out there, they know the I2 iron which was the number one iron for like a decade in the golf marketplace. Our G430 is that iron that if we only made one it would work amazing for everybody. And but the peak of the market is your high handicapped golfer, right, your weekend warrior. They’re trying to get a little bit better when they can. But they got families, they got John’s, but they get out there on the weekends and they want something that’s gonna have plenty of forgiveness. Go relatively far go, relatively high, and that’s where our G series product is.

0:26:20 – Jeff Pelizzaro
What would you say to? Because I think that demographic is a lot of the people listening to the show We’ve got, you know, instructors and medical professionals listening to, but I like to think that our main demographic listening is obviously the fitness minded golfer, many of them probably in like the 35 plus range and Varying in all ranges of handicaps. But what are some of the things that you would suggest to to that crew Regarding what’s it, what’s most important when you’re looking at new clubs? I know I’ve heard you talk about club fitting and how important that can be. What are some of the recommendations, just simple, low hanging fruit things that you would tell these people?

0:26:57 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, great. Question number one is Don’t be intimidated to go get a club fitting right and be open minded. Be open minded. We’ve built some great tools. If you find a good pink club fitter out there, we have some amazing fitting tools to get you dialed so you can have your line.

Be open, that you can gain Distance or performance through the club designs and equally as much, it’s like a Venn diagram. You want to gain performance through the fitting and you need to marry those two together. You want to have them both have have both the fitting in the, the product engineering Benefiting you okay. So the fitting is super important, equally as important as the product. So be very open minded to try some things like you might have a Superfast club at speed but you might be better because your transition or now you need to launch the ball in a little bit of a softer shaft, you know, so kind of maybe drop your ego a little bit, then you you might have tried in the past right, so that might be something to think about, but definitely get.

You, get on, get a club fitting on a launch monitor. That’s super important and be mindful of not only your one best shot. That might happen you want to look at how consistent they are. You want to look at your how good or your missus. Golf is very much a game that you want to kind of control your misses and you want your misses to be better. So that’s one I think valuable piece of advice when you go into that fitting environment Is, yes, look at your good shots you want to hear your good shots great. But also look at the shots that you don’t hit as good, and that’s where you can really differentiate from better product in Proc that the engineering of the design is as good as your missus. I.

0:28:45 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Like you say, don’t, don’t focus on one shot that you hit, perfect, because I feel like that’s typically how we think in our head, like oh, my seven, I was one 165, because I did it one time and I probably sculled it. So club head versus shaft, I know that. You know, I’ve heard so many times. You know the shaft is super important. What are some of the things about the shaft and I heard you talk about this in the episode on the sub part, talking about and you even Just mentioned about the transition and how that plays a big deal in in what shaft is right for you. But club head versus shaft is one more important than the other or does it just kind of depend? And that’s where the fitting really makes the biggest difference?

0:29:25 – Marty Jertson
Yeah, so you’re gonna control most of the performance through the properties of the head. For example, you know I can’t give you an L flex shaft and an X flex shaft and that will not change how the ball flies as much as me giving you like a nine degree driver versus a 20 degree driver. So the head is the most important from a launch condition in a performance standpoint, but that’s not saying the shaft is not important. The shaft is really a fitting lever. So again, it’s you want to marry them both together and what the shaft can do for you is you want it to kind of match your, your, your kinetics. How do you apply force to the club? Right, this is like your signature, how you apply force and torque, and you mentioned, jeff, like your transition. So the transition is super important because that’s where you change the direction at the top of your backswing and how you apply force and torque to the handle through your hands.

There’s a lot of biomechanics that goes into why everyone does that a little bit differently, but that is the secret sauce of of shaft fitting Is fitting you to the right shaft for A your club at speed.

B whether you need to hit a little bit lower. But the most important thing is that you kind of fall in love with how that shaft is going to behave, bend and deflect, with how you individual golfer apply force and torque through the hands to the handle during the transition, and so a tons of our research goes into how do we build better tools and make that very easy, because that sounds hard and mysterious and overwhelming and intimidating. But we have tools to help our fitters do that and get you into the right shaft. So you have two players that both swing the club. It’s the same speed at the bottom, but they’re going to need totally different shafts based on how they transition it. One might apply a force like more straight along the shaft during the down swing and one might pull down on the handle and deflect it more. And you want to marry how much what you do there in transition to the stiffness of the shaft.

0:31:46 – Jeff Pelizzaro
Can you give us an example of two guys on tour that you know? You know, like two different style swings or two different transitions that maybe give us a better visual of and maybe what you know, if you happen to know what they’re using? Yeah, totally.

0:32:00 – Marty Jertson
So like a smooth transition would be if anyone out there could picture Louis Ustazen like, sweet, swinging, silky looking. I want that swing. Oh, it looks so good and he has what we call a smooth transition. So and this is a really fun story he is typically used.

Even though he swings it like 100, you know, in swing to 118 club speed he is used very soft shafts. He’s even used a shaft out there called the auto flex for a while which is basically like a ladies flex in terms of the bending stiffness Well, and he kind of experimented down with the little for a little while. But he’s typically used the equivalent of an S flex or stiff flex shaft, even though you know, if you go off some some fitting algorithm it might be. Oh, he needs a triple X based on his swing speed. So he’s wanted.

You can visualize him where the club and the shaft go in and then they return closer to the same trajectory on the opposite end of the spectrum, if you guys can kind of visualize well, a Victor Hovland’s the modern day example. Or Cameron champ, both very high club and speed. Cameron champs off the charts. He’s in the you know, the top of the PJ tour for club at speed but they have what we call a very abrupt transition where in that change of direction they’re pulling down on the handle a lot and that that creates a lot of deflection in the shaft. So for those players we need a shaft that’s going to minimize or optimize that deflection, and that’s generally a shaft that’s much, much stiffer in the butt section. And so if you give those guys, if you swap Louis shaft with Victor Hovland, they got the same club at speed. Both of them would go crazy and have a erratic results because we’re not marrying out their kinetics in that transition.

0:33:54 – Jeff Pelizzaro
And that just goes to reiterate the importance of going and having somebody look at your swing, somebody that understands it, have the track man, be able to tell the different you know scenarios, look at the different numbers and fit you for the proper one, right, Exactly.

0:34:09 – Marty Jertson
Yes, yeah, you are. The shaft is all about fitting, it’s all about matching it to you individually, absolutely.