In this episode, Nick speaks with Jeremy Stegall, a writer, coach, and speaker, who shares his journey of self-discovery and personal growth through hockey. He discusses how hockey provided an outlet for his aggression and frustration, allowing him to channel his energy and develop a strong work ethic. Hockey helped him understand the importance of knowing our own identity and persona, both on and off the ice. They both discuss the significance of self-awareness and the impact of childhood trauma on personal development and overall, Jeremy’s story highlights the transformative power of sports and the journey of self-mastery.

What to listen for:

“You gotta keep leaning in. I don’t even care if you don’t know what it is or how it’s gonna look on the end of the day, put it out there, because something is happening.”

“When I look back, I can see the journey, I can see the progression, I can see the repeating thoughts.”

“Get up more times than you fall down.”

About Jeremy Stegall

Jeremy Stegall is an author, coach, and speaker with Where the Change Happens Coaching. Beginning his blog, Where the Change Happens, in 2018, Jeremy’s writing has now provided readers in over 30 countries the tools to process questions we all have about making personal development growth a consistent habit. In 2020, he self-published his first book, Where the Change Happens, which has found international success, and in 2022, Jeremy self-published his follow-up, After the Divorce: From Looking Back to Leaning In. Jeremy continues supporting clients in shifting how they engage with problems to create new awareness around their vision for their lives and organizations.

Resources:

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:01.526)
Hello and welcome to the mindset and self mastery show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Jeremy Stegall. Jeremy, how are you doing today?

Jeremy Stegall (00:11.797)
Very well, Nick. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Nick McGowan (00:14.806)
I’m great, man. I’m excited to get into the conversation. Full candidacy. We were talking a lot of sports, so there may be sports that come into this. as a hockey guy, now is the time. I mean, by the time your episode comes out, somebody will have won the cup and have already drank beer or some sort of liquor or eating cereal out of the damn thing.

But I know that we’re going to get into some of that stuff. So, hey Jeremy, why don’t you kick us off? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre.

Jeremy Stegall (00:46.389)
Yeah, so Jeremy Stigl, I am a writer, coach and speaker with Where the Change Happens coaching. I help people make a once in a fall shift in their life where they see it’s meaningful. Something that is unique or quirky about me that most people don’t know. It’s interesting. I…

I’ve always had this energy whenever I walk into a room where everyone’s like, Jeremy! And I don’t know what it is, but it just changes something dynamically in the room. And it just, this energy lightens. But I see it as normal, but in some regards, you walk into a room when everyone’s silent, all of a sudden, everyone looks over and gets excited at you.

I don’t know. I don’t know, it’s not odd.

Nick McGowan (01:34.838)
guess it could be worse. Everybody could turn around and look at you and be like, you, what are you doing here?

Jeremy Stegall (01:38.517)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I don’t get that response I had at one point when I was dating someone, but I think it was more energy reflected.

Nick McGowan (01:48.79)
fair enough. You know, there are certain people that are magnetic, that can kind of pull those people to them. There’s also I just think like an open energy that some people have. Like you and I just started to shoot the ship pretty much right off the bat, like right away. And that’s probably like we’re kin in that sort of way where it’s like, yeah, we can have open conversation. But it is interesting to see when people like yourself walk into a room and people are like,

Jeremy Stegall (02:03.285)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (02:15.638)
It’s like they’re allowed to it’s almost like they were given permission to be able to have conversation or to kind of step out and be a little bit more extroverted. Is that something that freaks you out at times? Or are you just like everybody just fucking leave me alone? Just stop.

Jeremy Stegall (02:28.725)
no, I enjoy it because as a child, it was just a natural energy. But as my journey progressed, people were projecting, like, who do you think you are sorts of things and, and trying to like, here comes Jeremy. everyone’s wrong. Jeremy, you know, something’s wrong with you, Jeremy. And, you know, then making fun of me. So I got more attention and teasing perhaps, which started to drive me into a bit of a shell and not be as outgoing and energetic.

Nick McGowan (02:41.878)
Hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (02:56.885)
but on the journey of life and playing hockey, I learned how to find my confidence again and remember parts of who I am. And it’s been one of those things of reconnecting to that energy at work or wherever. Now coming back into space is not feeling triggered when people are like, hey, there’s Jeremy, or whatever. It’s just like, OK, this is something here. Lean into it. Just be present to what’s going on. So it’s an opportunity for curiosity for me. And.

I guess I am still working through that energy dynamic of some people appreciating that energy and some people wanting to refute it.

Nick McGowan (03:36.982)
Sure, I think there’s something with that. People that are a little pissy or upset that somebody else has the attraction or the energy or something. And that typically just shows that there’s something going on with them. I find myself at times being like, what the fuck is wrong with that person? But then almost quickly going, there’s something there. There’s a reason why they’re thinking that or saying that. Maybe it’s triggered something.

Jeremy Stegall (04:02.485)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (04:04.118)
But we also can’t really do anything about that unless there’s an opportunity to be able to talk to him. I had a conversation with somebody recently where they were like, it’s like social media. Like you say anything on social media, somebody is going to be pissed. Somebody is going to be really excited. Like I walked my dog today and somebody is going to be like, fuck, my dog died. I don’t even know how dare you walk your dog. And you’re like, I don’t fucking know about your dog. So everybody’s got their own stuff that’s behind them. But it is interesting that even I think a takeaway from this is.

Jeremy Stegall (04:09.205)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (04:13.365)
Hmph.

Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (04:20.581)
Right?

Nick McGowan (04:33.206)
If somebody walks into a room and they’re like you in that position, they still have thoughts and feelings and can be kind of shaped and molded in some sort of way. So it’s interesting to be able to kind of pull yourself away from that. Understand that there’s a thing going on from somebody else, be it that they’re looking to you for something or they’re like scowling at you from across the room. but yeah, it’s just fucking walk. man. But let’s take a little bit of a step back.

Jeremy Stegall (04:39.285)
Yes.

Jeremy Stegall (04:53.653)
Yeah, it’s like, I just walked in, like, why are you so pissed at me? Like, hey, bro. Yeah, just got here.

Nick McGowan (05:02.518)
Why don’t you tell us a little bit you’ve mentioned about hockey and you and I off air talked a lot about hockey. I know that going through any sort of sport or anything that takes a lot of discipline, especially from a younger age can help you as you get older. And hockey players are honestly most hockey players I’ve ever met are super nice, really like sweet people, but they will beat the fuck out of somebody on the ice and then just.

Jeremy Stegall (05:07.701)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (05:29.429)
Well, you know.

Nick McGowan (05:31.126)
be buddies afterwards. It’s like fighting with your friends when you’re eight or nine years old, you just fight and then you go play video games. And like, that’s how that worked. But take us back, like, tell us how did you actually become who you are and how did hockey tie in all that?

Jeremy Stegall (05:45.685)
Yeah, so for me in hockey, it started in the mid 90s, I would say, at living outside Chicago, NHL being on Fox. It’s not on cable. It’s being broadcast. I get to watch hockey. So my friends, you know, in the neighborhood were kids running around, screen around, started playing street hockey because that’s what we’re seeing on TV. And, you know, I liked watching people fight and the hits and everything. And, you know, starting to, I guess, subconsciously,

Nick McGowan (06:06.646)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (06:14.997)
internalize some of that voice that I was hearing of being made fun of or poked on. Being able to release frustration and aggression through playing hockey was an attractive area for me. And, you know, so I was begging my parents for years to buy me hockey equipment, sign me up to play hockey. And they’re like, no, black people don’t play hockey. It’s too expensive. You just, you just, it’s a phase, you know, you’ll, you’ll just, you know, I fall out. I’m like, no, like, please. So for two years, I’m begging my parents.

Like we’ll sign up for roller hockey at the YMCA and just you’ll do that. And I’m out there skating around everybody and you know, you know, doing extremely well for a very, you know, unskilled player. I just, I loved it. And I love flying around out there if I fell, whatever, I get up and keep going. But eventually at age 15, you know, my, my parents were like, okay, you’ve been asking us for years now. We’ll, we’ll sign you up. We’ll see what summer hockey is like. We’ll buy you some used equipment and play it again, whatever.

Nick McGowan (06:53.782)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (07:10.229)
Most people start playing ice hockey and the pros that are like five or six. I started at 15. But when I got on the ice, I’m like, fuck yes. This was my thing. I was falling. I was a horrible skater. Balance was awful. But I got a hat trick my first game. And they’re like, who is this guy? I was just in the zone doing the thing. Get up more times and you fall down and throw some hits.

Nick McGowan (07:14.518)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (07:27.798)
Nice.

Jeremy Stegall (07:34.805)
And I just loved the competition and love that trial and error. Get up more times and you will get knocked down. My work ethic became I will get up more than you and I will outwork you. And so I just kept going. I started going to scout camps with my dad and he’s like, all right, you know, I’ll take you. But if you want to go to more junior hockey tryouts, you’re going to have to take yourself. So I drove to St. Louis, drove to Detroit. You know, I made a team, moved to Boston by myself. You know, it’s like, you know, I was.

taking action, going out and being the worst player on the ice, but I kept going to tryouts. And eventually I go to a scout camp where the coaches like, or the on ice instructors like you were the worst player on the ice to start the weekend. But by the end of the weekend, you were the most improved player. And if you are willing to come up to Banff where we are, I think I can help you get as far as you want to go, but you’ve got to do the work. That was the one opportunity.

Nick McGowan (08:19.062)
Nice.

Jeremy Stegall (08:29.077)
that I needed and the first person to really believe in me and my ability as a hockey player. But then, you know, I get to Canada and this is this is the land of the gods of hockey. Like this is this is their game. So my first preseason game or so I was literally chased around the ice by a guy. I’m six foot three. I was probably one hundred eighty eighty five pounds at the time, but still six. Three is a big guy playing hockey. So like, what are you made out of?

like turning the other cheek and getting the hell out of here. So, you know, you know, I sure I can have the energy, but in hockey, I my family was encouraging the violence and aggression. That’s what drew me. So I that duality of, you know, what’s that line and how aggressive do you play? I got to Canada and they’re like, this is the game. Who are you? And I’m I was literally bowling in the locker room and my coach comes in and he’s like, Jeremy.

Nick McGowan (08:58.934)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (09:14.134)
Mm.

Jeremy Stegall (09:24.693)
It’s like the first period of the first game, man. If you aren’t going to be able to make it through this, like you’re not going to be able to make it this whole season. Like this is what the game is. But eventually they brought in a coach who had just retired from Toronto and the NHL and he taught us how to fight. And the very next game I’m like gloves are off. And it’s been a whole other thing ever since then where I recognize what I was capable of, of defending myself.

And I was able to engage with the game completely, unafraid of this one aspect, stepping through fear of fighting and getting punched in the face. It’s like, I love this game. I’m going to outwork you, but there’s another area that I need to develop. And it’s defending myself and recognizing it’s not as bad as you think it is. If you play defense, you know, you get punched square in the jaw, it’s going to hurt. But I mean, I just, I loved it. And it’s just been an evolution of.

Nick McGowan (10:14.646)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (10:23.125)
That first year in Banff, I was the most improved player in the team. I again started going to tryouts on my own driving around the U .S. Ends up in Boston, but it’s like it’s all went back to Canada and ends up at Iowa State University. I had got a call from a recruiter up there. But like when I went back to Canada, like my last year at 20 years old, my confidence completely shifted. I knew I was capable of capable of. I was fighting people. I was throwing hits. I was playing the game, but I wasn’t. I mean, I was playing a lot more in junior hockey, but when I got the

college, you know, then the game starts to shift. I only went to college to play hockey. I had no desire to go to school. All I wanted was to be a hockey player to play the game. All I wanted. If I got to go to college, okay, I’ll do that to play hockey. And then I ended up not really playing as much as I wanted. I mean, my skill, it’s not the same, you know, coming at 15 with guys who’ve been playing since they were kids. So whatever, but I have a role on the team. You know, it’s just it was managed the way that it was.

But again, the work ethic was there. It’s, you know, I’m sitting on the bench, but you get the tap. Stiegel, I need you to go take care of 27. All right. And then you just go, do what you got to do. Stiegel, you’re up. You know, ask no questions. It’s go and it’s time, you know, but I love the game and I was willing to do what I needed to do. And I was willing to stand up for my teammates and know that they were standing up for me. You know, that community, that brotherhood, you know, being in a line brawl with some of your best friends and looking over like.

Castro’s got a guy and Donnie’s got a guy and I got a guy. Like, where else do you bond over this type of stuff? And you know, friendships that have left. Sure.

Nick McGowan (12:00.278)
Certain weddings, I guess. I don’t know.

Jeremy Stegall (12:06.069)
Not in a sanctioned sporting arena. How about that?

Nick McGowan (12:10.326)
Well, that’s why I say it like that. It’s interesting because like part of me wants to say to the audience, like we are not condoning violence. However, if you’re a hockey fan, there’s violence. Yeah, but.

Jeremy Stegall (12:18.069)
No, no, no.

Jeremy Stegall (12:22.773)
It’s kind of different. Again, hockey was my way of having an outlet for the frustration that I had, the anger that I was internalizing. It was my outlet. And so it was like, I describe it to people like a light switch. I’m not a pissed off guy. I walk around, I’m smiling, I’m a nice guy. But in the game, when I’m on the ice, if it’s go time, I flip the switch and it’s go time. And the person I am now, cordial in the street,

is not going to be your friend when I’m playing hockey with against you.

Nick McGowan (12:55.862)
makes sense. I mean, there’s something to be said about the. Yeah, it’s the game. I agree with that. But there’s also like the persona. I can think of the mama mentality. Kobe, when Kobe was number eight, he was a different Kobe than when he was 24. When he became 24, he was the killer. And he took on that, that mindset of this is what I do. I get into this. Like I even think, and I’m hopping sports here, but I think of like, Anthony Edwards from Timberwolves.

Jeremy Stegall (12:56.725)
It’s the game.

Jeremy Stegall (13:05.607)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (13:14.133)
yeah. The Mamba mentality.

Nick McGowan (13:25.142)
he’s young enough. He’s fucking great. And he could fuck around and find out this year and potentially win a championship. But he literally said in an interview, I don’t know, like a few weeks ago, Scott van Pelt interviewed him and he was like, man, I’m just trying to kill everything in front of me. He was like, damn, and not in like he actually wants to end their lives. But it’s that mamba mentality of like, I’m here, I’m gonna fucking do it. And if I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna fucking do it. And then I think it’s a thing that you can take from.

Jeremy Stegall (13:25.269)
Hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (13:30.549)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (13:41.301)
Yes.

Jeremy Stegall (13:49.333)
Yes. Yes.

Nick McGowan (13:53.526)
that and translate it in other things. I’ve had other people on the show that have either been in the major league, in whatever sport they’re in, or have gotten close to it, or at least had traveled through like you did, where it’s like you spent years doing all these things. And there’s so many little lessons that you get from it. It’s not just a game. It’s what you do with it, but how you then tie that. And I think with hockey specifically, the violence section of that, it’s like you can’t remove it, but you also can’t take violence and then plug it into another sport.

Like, yeah, I think back to basketball. It’s a joke at this point, somebody gets in somebody’s face. It’s like, Ooh, maybe they’re talking shit, but they’re, they’re not gonna throw down. They’re definitely not going to jump into the stands like Ron are tested. Yeah, exactly. You know, they’re, they’re not going to bill Lambeer you and beat the hell out of you. Just not going to happen. but that, that you learned how to like turn that on, turn that off and also use the aggression, but.

Jeremy Stegall (14:23.957)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (14:30.133)
Yeah, yeah. What are you gonna do? No.

Like Detroit. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (14:52.278)
play the game in that sense, how is that formed into what you do now?

Jeremy Stegall (14:57.429)
Yeah, you know, it’s knowing when to be serious and to be on point and when to like, you know what, I’m taking this so serious for, you know, like I mentioned, I have a part time job working at, you know, the Advent Center here in Seattle, a climate pledge, being with brown people, you know, like, we’re humans, all sorts of stuff happens, you know, there is

Nick McGowan (15:19.606)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (15:21.301)
a reason why there are rules and security and all that stuff to support the experience but and to take that serious, you know, you want to be on point, but then there are situations where, you know, innocent mistakes may happen, you took a wrong turn or you’ve never been there before. It’s like, I don’t need to be an asshole right now. Like, it’s like the vents over like we’re all going home. Like this is all the gravy now like it’s knowing.

Like even exercising for myself, like I turn it on when I’m running, like it’s my area where, all right, I’ve got some energy outlet. How do I feel today? I’m kind of pissed off. I’m going to go for a run, turn on, turn on the frustration, kick on the tunes and let’s hammer it out and get a good workout in. And then once it’s over, it’s like, Hey, we’re all good. I, all that energy was for this one thing and it’s outlet, but you know, having that way of outlet, you know, I think that’s perhaps, you know,

Nick McGowan (16:06.357)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (16:17.973)
a lesson that I’m recognizing is having a channel for whatever this energy was to have a way to release it and to process whatever I needed to because you know, like you’re mentioning before like identity and persona when it comes to hockey, like all that stuff gets wrapped into it and you want to figure out who are you and when you show up and when not to take it so serious, you know, it’s control versus management.

Nick McGowan (16:42.998)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think understanding where that stuff is coming from, you know, like if if you’re in a game, you’re like, here, I’m in the confines of this game. In the game, we play by these rules. We do these things. We can sort of play jazz within it. But being able to understand, like you had said, there was a lot of aggression that you had that you then put that into hockey that that makes makes me wonder what happened when you were younger.

Jeremy Stegall (16:59.157)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (17:12.278)
what was the aggression, where was that coming from? Because you figured out how do I move this through me? And that’s a very beautiful way to be able to handle your nervous system instead of just like bottling it up, stuffing it deep inside, you figured out a way to be able to do it and something that’s scratched multiple itches because it was the fun, the leisure, you know, all that, but then also, you know, you can go down that checklist of things. But being able to step back and say, all right, well, there was something that happened and you had all this aggression, but…

Jeremy Stegall (17:31.189)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (17:41.974)
how did you process through that? Like I think of the people that get into the league and then they’re like, I don’t fucking know what to do. And they like beat people or beat their wives or they do whatever because they haven’t actually processed through the shit that happened when they were younger. They had an outlet for a minute, but they broke a leg and they couldn’t get back into it or something, you know?

Jeremy Stegall (17:50.837)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (17:56.789)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, like, I mean, the whole drinking and violence thing, that’s, it’s, it was present. It’s something I recognize, you know, one of my best friends went to, you know, recovery and, and, and, you know, good for him not having a drink. I, I, I, I’m proud of him. You know, for me, what I had going on, how I define it is being told what I should feel or want.

what I should be doing, being judged and criticized for what I was doing, where I was interested in and feeling like, and as a child, not having control or autonomy over what I chose to engage in or where I went. I loved Green Day when Dookie came out in 94 and every one of my friends outside Chicago was like, who the hell are you listening to Dookie? Why aren’t you listening to Tupac? Like.

I just resonate with what I resonate with. Of course, I didn’t say that as a 10 year old, but you know, it’s just so like, just recognizing going to a different school and like, all of a sudden, my friend and my peer group is shifting. And it’s like, you know, all of that plays into my experience, because I go back to my neighborhood growing up. And then, you know, I’m just in two different environments where alternative music and hockey and whatnot is more present than, you know, the school that they were going to and the

Nick McGowan (18:59.958)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (19:26.645)
whatever that they were getting into. But.

Jeremy Stegall (19:34.069)
to be able to run into people and to fight. It was my taking my frustration into the game and channeling that energy and controlling what I could control through whether it’s intimidation or whatnot. And, you think so? Or you’re going to keep doing that? You’re going to find out today. And it’s like, yeah. And becoming that person who is now like, I’m not going to or you’re not going to because of.

Nick McGowan (19:53.526)
Fucking show you, yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (20:04.085)
finding out how I can stand for myself and it’s just it was a journey. I mean, really of being pissed off. Why are you always pissed off? I don’t know. My freshman year or sophomore year college when my roommate or my friends were looking for roommates, I almost wasn’t one of the roommates that moved in. I was one of the last people that they asked because they said I was angry all the time. I’m like, you think so? I don’t I don’t recognize that. But

Nick McGowan (20:12.118)
bet.

Jeremy Stegall (20:33.685)
You know, on my journey of, you know, I’ve been curious about people my entire life and going to school and studying psych, started reading books and getting into personal development and applying that stuff to myself so that I could do something about areas that were starting to become problematic, but noticeable in a way that it wasn’t showing up that I wanted to be showing up in. And,

I mean, it just started leading into communication. And, and, and now I’m getting into childhood trauma. Now that I’ve gotten into a Gabor Mate, you know, kick I on YouTube, I, something comes up. It’s like, wait a second. This guy is onto something. Wait a minute. That’s exactly what’s going on. My childhood control judgment back then. That’s why I was frustrated. And now things are starting to come up about envy and frustration. And I have a list of all these things that have like,

Nick McGowan (21:16.598)
Mm.

Nick McGowan (21:20.214)
All stems from that. Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (21:29.941)
wait a minute, these are the patterns that have been coming up. And, you know, and now into my forties, it’s like, now I’m recognizing these patterns, I can do something about this. And I can, whether it’s compartmentalizing in a way that’s supportive for what I need to be doing, it’s helping, it’s helping me. Cause now I feel like I’m showing up fully in every area, but also recognizing this blind spots, there’s work to do and I’m okay with that.

Nick McGowan (21:57.622)
yeah. So interesting, though, the more that you work on things, the more work you see. Like there’s been a joke that I’ve made jokes with people on the show. And even looking back, I mean, you’re probably going to be episode, I don’t know, like 130 or something like that. It’s been a bunch of conversations like man, self awareness has been one of the biggest things that I’ve seen that people talk about. And it’s like one of the moments where it’s like, if you’re not aware, you can’t know.

you have to be aware of something but the more aware you are, the more fucking aware you are, then the more you go and do the work. And it’s interesting about childhood trauma because there’s so many things that have stemmed from childhood. Like I, I have been ripping apart a lot of this within myself for the past few years specifically to be able to get in and really do the work. And it’s been a fucking mess at times because that little boy in me is so upset and tries to

Jeremy Stegall (22:25.301)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (22:29.557)
the more aware.

Jeremy Stegall (22:48.981)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (22:52.982)
fight for me and do those things and understanding there’s fragmentation within our being to be able to heal those parts and not your entire being isn’t pissed off or upset. But something you’d mentioned that really sounds like it’s a major problem and something we don’t really think about is this systemic issue. You brought up where your parents had said black people don’t do this. And then you had friends that were like, why aren’t you listening to Tupac? Why are you listening to Green Day? Because Dookie was a badass album and way better than Kerplunk.

Jeremy Stegall (23:02.485)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (23:23.286)
But I mean, we could, I digress. But there’s like, to think about that, like you don’t do that. It doesn’t make any sense where people say like, boys don’t do this, or girls don’t do this, or guys don’t do this. Like, the shoulds aren’t a thing. And if we are able to remove that, you can then start to look at and go, God, so many people told me I shouldn’t do this. Like, I don’t know, it makes me think like PK Subban comes to mind.

only because he is, he’s a black hockey player who is now a broadcaster. And I think he had said something years ago, like when he first got into the NHL where he kind of went through some of the same shit, but he was in Canada where everybody was doing it. And he was still going through that. You were in Blackhawks nation. Why weren’t they letting you just play? Because there’s a system issue.

Jeremy Stegall (23:52.021)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (24:06.837)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (24:18.134)
Instead of just being like, you shouldn’t do this, you shouldn’t do that, you should do this. And they’re trying to reflect upon themselves that, I don’t know, so I think you should do it this way. And now being in your 40s, like you said, you look back and you’re like, God damn, so much bullshit from being a little kid. So what are the things that you’re working on now that you feel have been monumental for you to be able to work through?

Jeremy Stegall (24:35.605)
Yes.

Jeremy Stegall (24:43.637)
goodness, saying what I really feel is what I’m working through. You know, as a writer, you know, with the blog, like it was my introduction into, okay, I’ve gotten divorced. What am I working on? But now it’s like, what was the experience? Like, if you need to say, fuck, say it. I grew up in an environment where I was not allowed to swear. So the fact that I just did that on this podcast,

Nick McGowan (25:04.662)
say it. Yeah, I agree with that.

Jeremy Stegall (25:11.605)
is a big deal for me because I don’t swear in front of my family. There’s a part of me that isn’t fully shining through because I was told how I should be as a kid. Your parents aren’t your friends. Don’t say this around your family. Like, okay, I’m all respectful. But again, but who I am, like what I’m working on. So last, I wrote a book.

called After the Divorce from Looking Back to Leaning In. And it’s a fiction story about the experience of going through divorce and working with the coach and creating new momentum and possibility moving forward. And in the story, I describe a scene where the main character is listening to the radio and having this emotional response and just breaking down because the weight is there. And I’m like, what if I wrote a song that actually reflected the emotions of that and just put it out there? And so

I mean, I was a band geek growing up. I played saxophone. I taught myself how to play guitar. So, you know, why not? Last July, I sat down, I wrote some lyrics and wrote a song. I’m like, why not write more stuff about like getting divorced and turning 40? And then I was like, why not just call it 20 year reflection? And my brother showed me how I can upload music online and get it streaming and whatnot. And so once I figured out how to do that, I’m like, I can create music.

and share my energy and my story and my message the way that I see it, the way that I’m comfortable. No one’s telling me you should be doing this. You should play that. No, you should. This is my space to show up. And so I call my band Stag. It’s the first four letters of my last name. People mispronounce my last name, Stagel versus Stegel. So I’m like, just call it Stag. Whatever. So I’m working on new music since March. It’s now.

almost end of May. And it’s really an evolution of leaning into something I was interested in and passionate about when I was a kid, you know, being creative and creating music, but also sharing my life experience around divorce, around racism, around just my life story. I mean, there’s 40 years of content to come to process. And I just catch these waves of streams of consciousness of thought of song lyrics coming out and

Jeremy Stegall (27:36.853)
I mean, like even yesterday, I was just strumming something screw around and these lyrics came up to me of, can you trust a man who’s doing the best he can? And I look in the mirror and what do I see? I see a heartbeat, not a faded memory. Like that just happened yesterday out of just being plugged into all of a sudden, like something that gives me energy. And that’s part of how I show up.

with this energy resonating that I don’t see because it’s just something that’s there for me. And to process this information and to, or this experience and to come up with lyrics like that, it’s like, holy shit, man, like something is here. You gotta keep leaning in. I don’t even care if you don’t know what it is or how it’s gonna look on the end of the day, put it out there. Cause something is happening and I’m connecting to this confidence. I’m connecting to this confidence. It’s just incredible.

Nick McGowan (28:18.134)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (28:33.206)
Yeah. And being open to that is a big thing. You know, if you were like, no, I got to do this other thing or I got to go do this thing now or I should do this, you would start to close yourself off from that. And even even thinking through releasing music is one thing. Writing music is another part to it. The journey throughout all of that, I mean, not speaks to me. I mean, I’m actively working on an album and have been for a while. And just the movement.

Jeremy Stegall (28:36.245)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (28:43.125)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (29:01.622)
of working on the songs. I mean, I don’t know how you operate with what you do, but there are times where I’ll fucking work through a section of drums for three hours and I’ll lose the time. And I’m like, that one kick is off. It doesn’t match with the bass. Do I go do that? And like getting the feeling out that way. Sometimes it’s literally just the movement of it and doing those things and releasing the result from it. But we’re taught within the systems of the world.

Jeremy Stegall (29:11.189)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (29:27.317)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (29:30.87)
that you have to do a thing, then you have to produce results. And if you don’t, you’re absolutely worthless. And if you don’t go to school, get a piece of paper, and then get a nine to five and have two and a half kids and like all those fucking things, you’re worthless based on these systems that are in place where really it’s the things you can learn. Like think about when you’re working through music or you’re working through anything that you enjoy doing. There are things that you’re also simultaneously processing that come up.

Jeremy Stegall (29:40.917)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (29:59.51)
The fact that you were open to that and you got that line of lyrics, that’s beautiful. But that’ll also make you process through it because then you go, yeah, fuck, what does that really mean? What does that mean to me? When I see more than just a heartbeat, what does that mean? And that helps us process through things. So I think internally our beings are trying to go, well, you’re creative, so we need to work through this stuff. Let’s do it this way. What do you think?

Jeremy Stegall (30:15.029)
Yes.

Jeremy Stegall (30:27.221)
Yeah, I 100 % agree. Because once I started recording this music, it’s like, I felt like I was processing something. I went through a coaching program a couple of years ago while I was writing the second book because I wanted to have that authentic coach experience. And I wanted to know how to be a coach and what coaching was. And I felt certain aspects of the program, some of the exercises describing survival mechanism specifically.

we were naming our survival mechanisms the way we showed up show up automatically that are inhibiting our ability to create and to move forward. And we called one of my survival mechanisms the unloved care bear. And I chuckle because I love care bears and to see a care bear like unloved it’s so sad. But when I would be in a sad mood or in my feelings,

Nick McGowan (31:14.55)
I agree.

Jeremy Stegall (31:19.221)
I didn’t want to be called an unloved care bear because I felt like it resonated too much with being made fun of for my childhood and it took me into a different place of, you can’t be the unloved care bear. Who is that? Like, how are you going to choose to be? Move forward and don’t carry this energy rather than, I feel like shit right now.

Jeremy Stegall (31:40.469)
feeling it and asking like where is this coming from like maybe it’s nothing maybe it’s just maybe it’s just where I am right now it’s just the moment that I’m in and this is going to pass but right now this is where I’m at and being okay with it accepting it not saying it’s something you have to fix something to notice

Nick McGowan (31:44.086)
Yeah, actually doing the work.

Nick McGowan (31:58.806)
Yeah. yeah. It’s something to notice something to do something with just like emotions. I’m hyper emotional. And those that are in my inner circle know that I can be really emotional at times because there’s a power within that. But it’s also like if we don’t use those, they’ll use us and it’s doing something with it. But sometimes it’s just going, I feel a little off right now. What is it? And being able to ask those questions and kind of being agnostic from the

the feeling in a sense and going, what is this? Where’s this coming from? I’m bringing that up because I think we can’t just it’s the best way to put this. There are times where you have to use your mindset, your mindset, your attitude is a big portion of this. But you cannot fucking mindset your way through life. It’s not how this works. This is not why this fucking show is is around. That’s not it.

Jeremy Stegall (32:44.757)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (32:51.509)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (32:53.622)
And there was a situation that happened recently with somebody and I’m being very obscure, but the person had said to this somebody like, basically it sounds like you need to fix your mindset. Where no, this person was really saying like based on patterns, this is how things have worked. And this is what I feel right now. And I’m working through it. And this is where I’m at. That other person from the outside, it feels like there’s almost like a, no, I don’t know how to go deeper than that. So I think it’s just a mindset.

thing. And if you fix your mindset, and you think differently, it’s like, that’s not how the fucking world works. That’s not how this actually works. And a lot of it has been, I think we’re almost desensitized of like doing the work in that sense. Because then you go, yeah, well, if I just put my adult pants on, and I just keep fucking hammering through the things, everything will be all right. And it’s like, really, what you’re doing is you’re just putting stacks upon stacks of concrete on top of that.

Jeremy Stegall (33:22.165)
Hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (33:29.877)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (33:48.245)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (33:48.822)
And at some point, you’re going to go what the fuck and lose your mind. So how do you not do that and just go back to when you were six, somebody did something weird to you. And that fucked you up from that point on. So how do you fix that instead of being like, Nope, I’m fine. I’m just going to keep putting concrete on top of this. And then at some point, everything’s going to implode. You can’t mindset your way through that you actually have to process through and do that deep work you brought up inner child work.

Jeremy Stegall (33:52.789)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (34:11.157)
No.

Nick McGowan (34:15.862)
So as you started to move into the inner child work, did you experience that as well where it’s like, shit, my mind is just a piece of this, but there are things that are actually within my cells and there’s reason for all of this.

Jeremy Stegall (34:28.565)
Yeah, I’m leaning into that because actually I was having a conversation with someone a couple days ago, it’s Trock talking about traveling to the south and how I’d never been there. And we were talking about Mississippi and Alabama. I’m like, yeah, there’s two states I’m never going to. I’m like, there’s just too much trauma there. Like, I don’t, if I show up around that and I feel like some of…

what is carried perhaps is just carried trauma from some of the systemic issues that we have and processing, yeah, I mean, these things, we’re humans, you know, we do all sorts of funky things and thoughts still exist and we still live in the country and the environment that we do. And it’s…

Nick McGowan (34:58.966)
Yeah, generational.

Jeremy Stegall (35:16.949)
It’s I recognize that it was there when I said it. I’m like, OK, this is why I don’t want to go, because I feel like if I go, I’m just going to be a puddle the entire time and just feel a sense of lack of control that it’s still possible. I mean, it is, you know, terror management theory coming up here. I’m just trying to keep myself from freaking out that, you know, at some point it’s going to end, whether it’s my choice or not. But.

I’m recognizing that these energies are there. I mean, this list that I came up with, I mean, I don’t know how it just, something clicked and it was like these jealousy, envy, loneliness, anger, frustration, attachment, doubt, insecurity, shame. It’s like, this is that kid. I see it. I see it. And loving that kid and.

really being on the journey of loving myself, I think that’s where I’m at right now, is really experiencing what that can mean for me.

Nick McGowan (36:20.886)
Yeah. And isn’t it funny how should has nothing to do with any of that? Like it doesn’t fit. It just does not. You can’t even bring it into the room when you’re looking at things like that, because you’re like, huh, what do I want? What do I want to do? What do I want to experience? How do I want to experience this? And I think there’s a power and also understanding the things that you don’t want. I went through a divorce as well. And I, after the divorce, I ended up kind of tripping into coaching.

Jeremy Stegall (36:26.837)
Hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (36:42.581)
Yes.

Nick McGowan (36:50.614)
because I had some buddies that were like, hey, man, my friends kind of fucked up right now. Can you talk to them? I know you’ve gone through this, blah, blah, got into coaching, which ultimately led to the podcast because I was like, I can’t talk about the shit that I talk about with these people and be like, well, some weird thing happened in a very sexual, deviant, crazy way. And I can’t be like, so I talked to somebody who said this thing. But it’s like we can have these open conversations on the podcast and allowing things to work through.

Jeremy Stegall (36:55.157)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (37:10.101)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (37:17.813)
Right.

Nick McGowan (37:18.006)
but seeing all those movements and all the motions that happen with it and going, okay, well, what do we do? But what do I not want? I think there’s power within that too of going, these are the things that I want, or at least I feel like I want. And then there are things that I really don’t want and being able to not live on either side of that list, but go, cool, well, what feels right to me to do? And I think energetic ties into that too. I bring up feel a lot because I have to feel things.

Jeremy Stegall (37:26.389)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (37:31.381)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (37:42.581)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (37:45.302)
But I have even like close family members, I bring up my dad at times because my dad had always told me like, think, think, think, think, think, use your brain, use your brain. And at one point, I told them when I was in my late 20s, probably when I realized I was like, yo, dude, you told me to think all the fucking time. But that was secondary, if not tertiary, like I needed to feel through it. And I needed to go through the emotions to be able to get there. But we need to understand how we work within that.

Jeremy Stegall (38:06.417)
Yeah. Yes.

Nick McGowan (38:12.246)
So what advice do you give somebody that’s trying to figure out like I know that I’m frustrated at times and maybe it means I’m not in the right spot. But what do I do and how do I do this? And what do you what’s that advice you’d give to somebody for that?

Jeremy Stegall (38:25.877)
My advice is to begin to process your relationship with yourself through journaling. That conversation of dialogue, it’s a safe space, it’s you writing down how you truly feel, what your experience was, what you want, pie in the sky, you know, whatever it is, it’s your space for you to create in there. To…

to say the thing that you’re afraid to say in front of someone else, to put it onto paper and to see it and to have an opportunity to recognize that it doesn’t hold you or control you. These things that we hold inside, they tend to fester and to control us, I believe. And I think that that relationship, trust, love, you know, like I’ve heard often about like loving yourself, love yourself. I’m like, I love me. Do I love me?

interesting. And it’s just something to be with. But it’s not saying I don’t love myself because absolutely I do. But to just engage with that because the fact that I was like, do I? I feel like there’s something there. It’s an opportunity to figure out what is in that space and how I want to be about that. And often in the morning and I’m journaling about it or something comes up, I got a new idea. I got journals all over the place to write stuff down. So I got to catch I got to catch it and I got to get it out.

Nick McGowan (39:42.966)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (39:53.941)
Because when I look back, I can see the journey, I can see the progression, I can see the repeating thoughts. That’s how I came up with that list of all these different areas that kept resonating and coming up for me. And it’s like, wait a second, I’m 10 years into journaling. So I’ve got stacks of journals, like journals I can go through. And it’s like, holy shit, I wrote it down in detail. Wow. Look, I came a long way.

Nick McGowan (40:20.982)
You had mentioned about how we’re human and we do funny, quirky things and how we need things that work for us. Like you found journaling. And I think of so many people told me journal, journal, journal, journal, journal. I had therapists, I had coaches and they were like journal. And I tried journaling. I have a few years of journals and then realized at one point I was like, I’m not really doing this. I’m writing to just do the thing. But that led me back into my music.

Jeremy Stegall (40:41.205)
-huh.

Nick McGowan (40:48.982)
of like, this is the way that I can open this up and start to work through it. So point to be said for everybody that’s listening, find the thing that works for you, but you have to fuck around and find out. Like you have to just try different things. And what you brought up, I think is a huge, huge deal where it’s like, yeah, you can look at something and then say, Hmm, there’s something there. It’s then doing that next step and the next step of doing the work to be able to figure out what’s there.

Jeremy Stegall (40:53.269)
Yeah.

Yes.

You have to fuck around. Yes.

Nick McGowan (41:16.534)
And sometimes that’s really difficult to figure out on your own. You need coaching or you need therapy or you need EMDR, some sort of deep subconscious processing work. And sometimes it’s hard to be able to find resources, resources to be able to do that. But even just being able to go, I think there’s something here and starting to ask yourself the question will then start to open up different opportunities. Like we at Chooser Calling, we help people through that. We have different resources and like we’re a resource for that.

Jeremy Stegall (41:40.341)
Mm -hmm.

Nick McGowan (41:46.134)
But I always encourage people, like ask yourself the questions, sit with it and go, well, why the fuck do I feel this way right now? Or what is this thing? Or why am I upset? I found, and I don’t know if this is 100 % accurate for everybody, but I found that most things that I’ll get back to, I go, fuck, it’s that little kid. It’s that childhood situation that turned into something else because it became a story that I just latched onto.

And then you have to rewrite that story. And some of that might look like actually writing, like journaling it out and writing it. But some of it might just be going, huh, is that real for me today? And is that, is that true? Do I want it to be true? What do I need to do differently? So along that lines, what’s that piece of advice you’d give to somebody that’s on their path towards self mastery?

Jeremy Stegall (42:18.389)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (42:28.821)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (42:37.877)
Like, I mean, literally, like what we’re just talking about here, like this is the thing, because to notice that you feel some kind of way and to ask in the moment, what is going on? Why am I pissed off right now? I had this experience two weeks ago. I’m like, staying at work, there’s nobody in the concourse, but I felt some kind of way. And I’m like, why am I feeling some kind of way right now? And all of a sudden it comes into feeling like perhaps I might be jealous of someone.

and an interaction with them has me feeling some kind of way. And that jealousy is because of when I was a kid, I felt like everyone knew what was going on and they’re making fun of me. Jeremy shows up. Hey, well, we all know and you don’t. Feeling some kind of way. And again, it comes back to that list that I’ve read to you. But thinking about that specific area in that moment, I’m like, why am I so upset right now?

And just asking myself that and allowing it to be and moving forward with that. I think that there’s a lot of value and a lot of power in this process, but you have to do it. You have to take action and you have to be willing to be vulnerable, uncomfortable outside of your comfort zone.

Nick McGowan (43:57.43)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (44:01.654)
Yeah, and we get to do that with ourselves. Look, the audience, we’re not telling you go talk to people and go share all this stuff, especially don’t hop on social media and just fucking vomit. But being able to actually have that conversation, be like, what the fuck? Why am I so angry right now? What is this? What is this thing? And just sitting there and working through it. I’ve heard from other people that when we talk about things like this, they go, well, look, I’ve got so much stuff that’s on my plate already.

Jeremy Stegall (44:10.485)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (44:27.126)
I have this and I have that and there are these little humans I have to be mindful of and this other person and all these other things. And it’s like, yeah, that’s cool. If it’s not one of those things in the moment where you’re like, I’m going to really unpack all of this, take it slowly. Notice even just the noticing of it and going, I’m real pissed right now. What is this? And figuring out what works for you. Again, my Ed mentioned about the nervous system move that you’d pulled earlier of like, I’m gonna put my aggression in here. I’m gonna move my energy.

Jeremy Stegall (44:31.157)
Mm -hmm.

Jeremy Stegall (44:42.133)
Absolutely.

Nick McGowan (44:57.014)
Even if you just know that there’s something within that, you then get to do something. Take a quick walk outside, just stand the fuck up and move in a circle if you need to. Like whatever, being able to do those small things will then compound and become larger things. And you’ve experienced that. I’m excited about the work that you’re doing and that you’re actually digging deeper into that stuff because the deeper you go, the more that you’ll see and the more that you, I found that we are all connected in some sort of way.

we can also look back and go fuck everything came from childhood. So how do we do this? And how do we do it differently and unravel from those things? Ma ‘am, I appreciate being on the show today and getting in everything we’ve talked about. Before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you?

Jeremy Stegall (45:30.325)
Yeah.

Jeremy Stegall (45:44.021)
Yeah, so thank you again for having me. You can find me at wherethechangehappens .com is my website. I’m also on LinkedIn, Jeremy Stiegel, S -T -E -G -A -L -L. On Instagram, Where the Change Happens, coaching YouTube, Where the Change Happens. I also have a channel. You can find some of the music that I’ve been releasing on there and some of the content that I’ve done for some workshops. Yeah, the website, LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTube. Find me there.

Nick McGowan (46:11.734)
Good stuff, man. We’ll have all that stuff in the show notes too. Again, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Jeremy Stegall (46:16.341)
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.