Qualitative Conversations

In this episode, James Salvo interviews Kakali Bhattacharya, editor of the Departures in Critical Qualitative Journal. The follow is a link to the transcript of the recording.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRE14XdXBlCkELsYv-aktchCLq5GNtwUVQKvkwzyK6v8DoHqB40wKUZu4r69mPsxEMhHZGMBM6T0XYj/pub

In this Episode, guest hosts Kelly Guyotte and Seth McCall interview Candace Kuby and Becky Christ about their work on speculative qualitative inquiry and pedagogy. A transcript of the episode can be found at the following link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vT3GPrMhAq3CEwVBq8RWbDijLun33mlqdbPamsjAdKDPG8w0Q1J_n4nkhfgELfVCRrunmZhAJzY1WP6/pub

In this episode, mentor, Dr. Kelly Guyotte, and, mentee, Carlson Coogler, discuss their experiences of mentorship. They specifically address mentorship within the Qualitative Research SIG. The episode begins with Carlson interviewing Kelly, but flips halfway through as Kelly begins to interview Carlson. Boden Robertson serves as the guest host, introducing the conversation. The transcript follows. 

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Boden Robertson  0:11  
Hello everyone and welcome to qualitative conversations, a podcast series hosted by the qualitative research special interest group of the American Educational Research Association. I'm Boden Robertson, the guest host for this episode on mentorship. And I'm very excited today to be joined by Dr. Kelly Guyotte and Carlson Coogler that have been gracious enough to lend their time and support to our QR SIG podcast episode. We'll start with introductions from our guests, and then the guests will interview each other about the QR SIG mentoring program and their experience.

Kelly Guyotte  0:41  
Thank you, Bowden. It's a pleasure to be here today. My name is Kelly Guyotte. I am an associate professor of qualitative research at the University of Alabama. I am also currently serving as the chair of the mentoring committee in the QR SIG. I had the immense pleasure of also working with Carlson she is a student in our program or educational research program with a specialization in qualitative research. And I'll turn things over to you Carlson so you can introduce yourself.

Carlson Coogler  1:11  
Yeah, hi, I'm Carlson Coogler at the University of Alabama, as was just said, I'm a doctoral candidate in educational research. I'm also the chair of the graduate student committee for the QR SIG. And Dr. Guy, as she mentioned, is my wonderful, lovely advisor, Professor, co teacher and mentor. So I'm very excited to do this with her. So I guess I'll go ahead and start asking me questions. So tell me about your experience with the QR segment authoring program. What do you do have done? What does it look like?

Kelly Guyotte  1:38  
Yeah, I had to I looked this up recently, too, because I wasn't sure how long I'd actually been on this committee. And it's been a long time, I actually joined the inventory committee in 2016. And so I started off as a committee member, I was vice chair of the committee in 2018. And then since 2019, I've been serving as chair of the mentoring committee. And so during that time, I have done a lot of things behind the scenes. So that's mostly where my my participation and support has been directed. So in terms of planning and organizing our various initiatives, I have also stepped in as needed to serve as a mentor for things such as the proposal Forum, which I think we're going to talk a little bit about, as well as the mentoring session. But really, a lot of the work that I've done has been helping to make sure these initiatives happen. And now as a chair, really supporting the committee members to make sure that we can continue to support our QR SIG membership. And I'm actually, this is gonna sound silly, but I'm looking forward to rolling off his chair because one thing that I really want to do and look forward to do is become more of a mentor in the QR SIG. So it's been really fun to plan and to be behind the scenes, but I really value mentorship. And so I'm looking forward to being able to to put myself out there a little bit more in support our various members who are seeking participation in our in our various initiatives.

Carlson Coogler  3:09  
That's awesome. Yeah. So what does the QR SIG mentoring do? What kind of help or assistance is available for students or early for faculty?

Kelly Guyotte  3:19  
Yeah, it's a really good question. We have three primary initiatives that we undertake as part of the QR SIG. So our first one is called proposal forum and proposal forum happens before AERA submissions are due every year proposal Forum is an opportunity for graduate students, for postdocs and for early career faculty who are submitting to AERA. Maybe for the first time or the second time, who would like to get some feedback on their proposals, and most usually send an email out sometime in mid May, early June or something like that. And we'll ask for folks who want to participate in that, then we will seek mentors that will be willing to read those proposals. And then we do some matching that there's a matching that happens. And then the folks who are seeking feedback will submit their proposals, which will be read by the mentors. And then the idea is that we're really helping these early career and emerging scholars to get great feedback and to really submit high quality submissions that have a high likelihood of getting accepted into the QR SIG program. Our second initiative is the mentoring session. And this is one that I think is probably is one of our more popular ones. And a lot of people have heard of it because it actually shows up on the AERA program. This one is geared toward graduate students and postdocs and I think you're actually participating this year and that right person, 

Carlson Coogler  4:49  
yes, I am really excited about it. 

Kelly Guyotte  4:51  
Great. The mentoring session. Like I said, it happens during the AI era annual meeting. This is an opportunity for folks to get together. Thankfully, we're gonna be back face to face this year, which we're really excited about. We ran it virtually last year. And it actually ended up being really lovely in a virtual setting as well. But typically what happens is folks come together, they get an opportunity to, to chat with one another to talk a little bit about what we call, quote unquote, areas of stuckness. So where are folks stuck methodologically. And so we invite senior scholars and folks who have experienced this type of thing and have wisdom that they can share, and to serve as support for these folks during the session that actually happens during the eight year a meeting. And then the final initiative is our office hours initiative. And so we've actually recently opened this up so that it caters to a lot of different types of scholars. So we have it open toward graduate students. So all of our initiatives are open to graduate students, postdocs, and faculty at any stage. So the idea here is that anyone who feels like they need mentorship can participate in this program. And if you're part of the QR SIG, you may have seen the emails have gone out quite recently on this one. This used to be a face to face meeting that happened at a era. But we've since moved that to be more virtual, although people who are attending AERA, of course, could meet face to face. But these are typically one on one meetings and they're you know, about half an hour in length, we call office hours because if your graduates, your professors office, during office hours, you're having a short one on one meeting, getting some really good focused feedback from them. And then sometimes these relationships continue to evolve, and people stay connected after that. And then sometimes it's a one off thing. But regardless, it's a great way to get some feedback on things that are going on with you methodologically.

Carlson Coogler  6:44  
That's awesome. I have experienced or am going to be experiencing all three of those. So it's nice to hear it described like that you describe some of this in your last answer. But is there anything you'd like to add about the process about like how mentors or mentees sign up?

Kelly Guyotte  6:59  
Yeah, we always submit our calls through the QR SIG listserv. And so if you're interested in participating in any of our initiatives, become a member of the QR SIG. And that way you can get these emails and get information about all of our initiatives. You may also have professors or colleagues who are members, and they may be willing to pass along the information to you. But the QR SIG is typically how we share that information our mentees matched to mentors. That is also a really good question. So I am just one of a team. We have a big committee of folks that work together on all of these initiatives. And they work really hard on the matching part. So typically, we try to design our forms in our surveys that we send out so that we can get information that will be helpful for us to match our mentees and our mentors in a way that's meaningful. So for instance, we may ask for things like methodological areas of interest areas that you're working in. Or we may ask things to the nature of theory, what are the theories that that you're you're working with. And then oftentimes, we have started to ask for specific mentors that folks would like to work with. And so we take all of these suggestions and all of this information. And we just have really smart people that are dedicated to making sure that these pairs and these collaborations are meaningful and thoughtfully designed and constructed. A lot of the behind the scenes work that we do as a committee is the matching that really took tends to take a lot of our time. And we just really try to make sure that people are paired with the types of folks that they're wanting, and that we allow, or we cultivate methodological and theoretical fit. 

Carlson Coogler  8:46  
Definitely experienced that methodological and theoretical fit and how I've been matched. I really appreciate that. What are the or what does a typical session meeting meet up between mentor and mentee look alike?

Kelly Guyotte  8:57  
So that's that depends. And I mentioned all three of our initiatives. And I think I may have talked a little bit about this, but just to be really concise and straightforward with your answer with a proposal forum. The connection is purely through email. It's all virtual. They're encouraged if they want to, they could meet up and do a zoom or something like that. But typically, it's just the mentee emails. The proposal to the mentor reviews, it emails back feedback. So it's typically email and asynchronous. The mentoring session, as I mentioned, happens at the eight year annual meeting. And so during that, typically what we do is we do some speed dating type activities. We'll then divide into to small groups and big groups, and it becomes highly dialogic, and then office hours. Like I said, it can happen either through the eight year annual meeting, or it can be virtual, and it's up to half an hour for one on one or group sessions. And typically, the mentee will come in with some very specific questions. some very specific topics that they want to discuss. And then again, it becomes very collaborative and dialogue.

Carlson Coogler  10:06  
What are the future directions for the mentor,

Kelly Guyotte  10:09  
this is actually my last year as the chair, but I will stay on the committee. So you can't they can't get rid of me too easily here. What I would love to see is I would love to see us continuing to find ways to support all of the membership of the QR SIG through mentoring is something that I would really love to see our committee take off.

Carlson Coogler  10:31  
That's, that sounds really important to me. I think that's really awesome. And you're doing such a great job right now with graduate students and our faculty. So I'm excited to see that develop, what else would you like to share about the room that didn't get covered?

Kelly Guyotte  10:45  
I'll just elaborate a little bit, we have a really active and robust committee of folks, some of the people on this committee have been part of the group almost as long or as long as I have. So we have people that have been servies for four or fives years. And so these folks are just really committed to mentorship and really value mentorship. When you see those emails that come out, just know that there's this group that that's behind them, and they're working really hard. Everything we do really takes team effort. And we have a distinct group of wonderful scholars behind it. They're making sure that things happen and are that we're doing what we can to truly support those, this SIG that feels they need mentorship. So I have some questions for you, Carlson, I know that you mentioned as well earlier that you are experiencing some mentorship by the QR SIG. Committee, and then the mentoring committee. So can you tell me a little bit about your previous experiences? As you see it?

Carlson Coogler  11:54  
Yeah, yeah. So this will be my third year of participating in in some way or another within the mentoring initiatives. So in 2020, I did an adapted version of the mentoring session that was virtual because the pandemic only was a sickness. And it was like via Flipgrid. It was really neat the way they all set it up. And I was the person who responded to my my video was on Dr. Wolgemuth. And then in 2021, I had did the office hours and ARA proposal, forum mentoring, and I happen to be paired with the same person two times. And that was Dr. Nordstrom. And then in 2022, I have the office hours and mentoring are coming up. And I'm really excited to see how that goes.

Kelly Guyotte  12:38  
So thinking back about your experiences as a mentee, what do you think has gone particularly? Well, you seem you speak very positively of your experience. I'd love for you to elaborate a little bit.

Carlson Coogler  12:51  
Yeah, there's really a lot that has gone very well. I think matching has been really excellent that y'all have been very thoughtful. And you have done a really great job of communicating what it's supposed to look like and how power how expectations etc. And the matching in the in the communication has been really nice. The mentors that I've had Dr. Wolegmuth, Dr. Nordstrom have been linked very thoughtful. And giving, for example, like Dr. Wolgemuth answered my my practical side of my moment of stuckness, but also weighed out and problematize. And I'm such an in my thinking. And that's been really helpful as I've like move forward and thinking about the relationships between this phonologies methodologies, disciplines, etc. It's like a seed that stayed with me. And very similarly, Dr. Nordstrom gave me really great and very practical feedback on my proposal. Like, for example, she's I, I should know, by the end of the first paragraph what your proposal was about. And she didn't, because I needed to make it more clear. And so that was very helpful. But then also, she gave me some suggestions for about people to read as I was struggling with the ideas. And that was really helpful. And actually it thinking through what she provided has resulted in my first single author publication, which is really exciting. So I'm very thankful for that. So I guess what I'd say is that what went well was I guess it resulted from coming with questions of stuckness and being open to how the professor's would answer it. And they did a really good job. And because I also did that with Office Hours too, and then asking questions that allowed us to move back and forth between the practical and the more like conceptual.

Kelly Guyotte  14:29  
That's really exciting to hear that you had a publication come out of your mentoring committee interactions. Congratulations.

Carlson Coogler  14:37  
Yeah, thank you and also out of your class as well. It's been a combination of all kinds of mentoring, but it would not have happened without these all these intersections. So yeah, I'm thankful for the opportunities.

Kelly Guyotte  14:47  
That's fantastic. So since you're you're now a very experienced mentee, what do you what would you want to share to other folks who are listening who may be thinking about Becoming a mentee and one of these initiatives, what would you suggest that they know before signing up and or meeting with their mentor? How might they prepare?

Carlson Coogler  15:07  
Do I think for sure, be engaged, come with questions, make notes reflect on the process afterward. And as I've said before, I think it's important to ask about practical and idea oriented stuff, to not be one one camp there. But also, I think something that's been really helpful for me is realizing this isn't a performance. Like I'm not worried, like to try not to be worried about impressing the other person, like, when it's our professor, a lot of times, we're supposed to we're student, we're expressing our knowledge about stuckness, for example, it can still be productive, not knowing can be productive. And so it's okay that you don't know the answers to your questions. That's why you're seeking mentorship.

Kelly Guyotte  15:49  
Yes, that's excellent advice. I hope that hope that folks heard that, because it is it's sometimes it feels like even to get mentorship, we have to have some answers, but really, that stuckness and those tensions and those struggles can be really productive, even if they're unresolved by the end of an interaction, sometimes it's those interactions can linger with us and affect in really profound ways.

Carlson Coogler  16:13  
Yes, I would say that all of mine had been unresolved still, or it's been pushing me in a different direction that a way to approach my question of stuckness from a different angle that's ultimately been really helpful in helping me work out where I am. That's not been fully resolved. So

Kelly Guyotte  16:28  
Yeah, you mentioned this in your introduction, but you are this year, you're serving on the QR SIG graduate student committee, and I believe you're the chair of that committee. Is that correct?

Carlson Coogler  16:38  
Yes, that's correct.

Kelly Guyotte  16:39  
Can you tell me a little bit about your role?

Carlson Coogler  16:42  
Yeah, this is my second year on the committee, my first year of being chair. So basically, what I do similar to what you were talking about on the being on the back end, is that I do a lot of organizing and supporting and facilitating, and basically, I think of it as being between two relation, two sets of relations, one between the larger grad student community, and then the grad student committee, and then between the grad student committee and an exec committee for the QR SIG. So we have three different initiatives, the writing, breathing, and our newest one, which is a dissertation Group, kind of job oriented. And so each of the members facilitate those groups like they use a few of them facilitate each of the groups together. And then we are, we've had a speaker event for this first time, which was really awesome. And we're hoping to do that similar, there's gonna be a podcast coming out about that. And then we have a meet and greet planned for AERA. So the organizing, supporting and facilitating of those things are what I do as the Chair, I wish

Kelly Guyotte  17:42  
that I could have taken advantage of that when I was a graduate student. I think that sounds really incredible. And it seems like folks are really active and wanting to be involved.

Carlson Coogler  17:51  
Yes, they are in the committee. It's just absolutely wonderful. I really just I also like, help lead one of the groups, but it is definitely not a one person thing like we are a team and they are so active, involved and dedicated and creating spaces for community for graduate students. And so it's been really a pleasure to get to work with them

Kelly Guyotte  18:10  
in thinking about the because our topic today is about mentorship. How do you see your graduate student committee also taking the practice of mentorship? Yeah, so

Carlson Coogler  18:21  
I think about the book that you and Dr. Wolgemuth edited that philosophical mentoring and qualitative research, there was this like general push to disrupt the hierarchical relationship between my mentor and mentee and to think about mentoring. And it's happening, even not even just between not even just between people that think it was Coker at all, they had the chapter where it was more than human mentors. And but so I guess as I'm answering this, I think our experience of mentorship is mostly happening not in the formal professor to student mentor mentee codified relationship. It's really like students, a student in our community groups. And I think that's really important, and something that graduate students maybe don't, or maybe not as aware of that it's not just your professors, especially if they're new graduate students who are or can be in mentoring relationships with you that you can learn a lot from other graduate students. So yeah, I think that is where we do most of our mentorship experiencing experiences are happening student to student,

Kelly Guyotte  19:19  
I love hearing you say that because it makes me think of over the years that I've been in the on the mentoring committee, I've had a lot of faculty that have communicated how much they really enjoy serving as a mentor, how much they enjoy participating in mentoring session, because they feel like they learned so much and they take away so much from those in those engagements. And so I think a lot of times students have a tendency or grad students have a tendency to think that like they're the ones getting and receiving all have this wonderful knowledge, but really, our mentors do as well and it becomes very reciprocal. So I just loved hearing you talk about that breaking down the hierarchy and thinking about mentorship in new and different ways. So, yes, as a current doctoral student, doctoral candidate, what advice do you have for other current graduate students? And maybe thinking about that under the under the topic of mentorship? How would you want to mentor them to move forward and learn?

Carlson Coogler  20:17  
Yeah, I think my main advice, especially in relation to this topic would be to really cultivate relationships in various types of relationships, mentoring relationships, like with professors at your school elsewhere and conferences, talk to people after you listen to their presentations. If you have questions or ideas even email someone after you read the article, if you have a question or thought and you want to share, just reach out, I think because a lot of us are a lot of us are in our these roles that we're in and as teachers and researchers, because these relationships are important to us and having communicating about ideas and having an opportunity to mentor and be mentored and for it to be reciprocal, like you said, so I think trying to cultivate in as many places as you can opportunities that are formal and informal for mentoring apply to be on committees like I've learned a lot about being a scholar doing qualitative inquiry as a result of being on the grad committee and learning from other graduates. And then also because I'm the chair of the exec committee, so I've heard a lot it's helped me understand and imagine what it looks like to be a professor and to be on a committee at ARA and like what that looks like. And then I think, like you said, the reciprocal aspect I can work in this weird liminal spot. We're still students, though soon, hopefully they have doctorates and be professors. And so we're learning how to be a scholars. And I think that there's like this slide that's always happening between like mentor and mentee, like we're always have. And so I think sharing and learning with humility, knowing that you do have something to share, but that you also always have something received that you're both always mentor mentee, I think is important. And it's relationships. Yeah, I guess that's the advice I would offer.

Kelly Guyotte  21:56  
I love that. And I think just having the opportunity to work with you as your as your one of your professors, and we're getting to co teach and we could get into right together, I know that I have learned a tremendous amount from working with you and reading with you and thinking with you. For me, that reciprocity is something that is really fulfilling and sustaining. So I appreciate you very much, Carlson.

Carlson Coogler  22:21  
I appreciate you too. And I 100% agree it's a joy. It's a joy to be in these relationships with you. Thank you.

Boden Robertson  22:28  
And I appreciate both of you joining us today for this episode. And I think that about wraps up today's episode on mentorship. I know that I've learned a lot and I really hope that our listeners have to, I'll be completely honest, I'm definitely sold on the mentor program and I will be and I will be signing up so you've you've at least convinced me congrat congratulations. So just to close out again to thank Dr. Kelly Guyotte and Carlson Coogler for taking the time out of their busy schedules to join us for today's episode. And until next time. Thanks for joining us for qualitative conversations.

In this episode, the QR SIG's Graduate Student Committee hosts a conversation with Dr. Cassie Brownell, Dr. Stephanie Shelton, and Dr. Sandra Guzman Foster about how to successfully navigate graduate school, dissertation reading and writing, and the job market. Below is a transcript of the conversation. 

Carlson Coogler  0:11  
Yeah, so everybody, welcome. Thank you so much for coming to our first but hopefully not our last invited speaker about this hosted by the graduate student committee of the qualitative research SIG of AERA, my name is Carlson and I'm the chair of this wonderful group of people who make up the graduate student committee. And so first and foremost, I want to acknowledge them and around a virtual applause. Thanks for all their hard work. This would not have happened without them as what our groups are initiatives not happened without them. So thank you so much to Amir, Deleasa, Jen, Kristen, Ashley, and Mariia for the incredible job y'all have done with all of this and running and supporting our three initiatives, the reading group, the writing group, and the dissertation slash add group while being yourselves graduate students and therefore very busy. Second, I want to welcome our attendees and encourage you to participate in our initiatives. And so if you are not already on our listserv, you can send us an email and that [email protected]. And then we can put that in the chat, but also that's on the flyer. So if you if you're interested in joining the reading the writing of the dissertation group finding out more about, then we encourage you to join our listserv for that. So, and groups will be meeting soon. So if you have you're not missing anything if you haven't gotten started yet. Third, and of course, very importantly, I want to thank our speakers. We are so grateful for your time and energy and are eager to  [...]. Thanks so much. 

So first is Dr. Cassie Brownell. She is an assistant professor of curriculum teaching and learning in the Ontario Institute for Studies and education at the University of Toronto. Her research takes up issues of educational justice and equity in early childhood. Drawing on critical socio cultural theory, Cassie examines children's socio political development through school based studies as well as community based research. She has received funding from the National Academy of Education slash the Central Research Foundation, Canada's Social Sciences and Human Humanities Research Council, the International literacies Association and the National Council of Teachers of education. Samples of her research can be found in the pages of anthropology and education quarterly theory into practice, Teachers College record and research in the teaching of English. Dr. Sandra L. Guzman boster earned her PhD in educational leadership and policy studies at Arizona State University, where she was also at Gates Millennium Scholar and a Spencer interdisciplinary fellow. Prior to joining the University of the Incarnate Word Dr. Guzman Foster work as an educational consultant, where she worked on several projects such as leading research and evaluation teams and fieldwork, developing course curriculum for online programs, and serving as a research subject matter expert, Dr. Guzman foster brings experienced an online hybrid pedagogy, curriculum development, teacher education, program evaluation, educational research and social justice education. Additionally, Dr. Guzman Foster has taught at the K 12 level community college level at the university level in Texas, Arizona and Colorado. A first generation college graduate Dr. Stephanie Ann Shelton is Associate Professor of qualitative research and program chair of the educational research program and the College of Education at the University of Alabama and affiliate faculty member in the Department of gender and race studies and the Gifted Education Program, research interests are often interview and focus group base and include examining intersections of gender identities, gender expressions, sexualities, race and class and educational context. publications have appeared in qualitative inquiry, the International Journal of qualitative studies and education, qualitative research journal GLP, a journal of lesbian and gay studies, the International Journal of Transgender Health, The Journal of lesbian studies, and teaching and teacher education. She has published four books, including feminism and intersectionality in academia, women's narratives and experiences in higher education 2018, which was reprinted in 2020, and the just published Encyclopedia of queer studies and education. She was the 2020, recipient of the American Educational Research Association, Early Career Award and measurement and research methodology, and the 2021, recipient of the NCTE LGBTQ plus leadership and advocacy at work. So without further ado, I will pass this over to Dr. Brownell. 

Dr. Brownel  4:19  
Thanks so much for having us. It's super exciting to be here with you all. And especially for this first event with such phenomenal co speakers here with me. I tend to speak a little fast, especially when I get excited. So I'm going to turn on the captions here for folks as well. So as mentioned, my name is Cassie Brownell, I'm an assistant professor just in my fourth year having just completed my interim tenure review this past year, and I have put together a bit of a slideshow to organize my thoughts and share with you all and so the link is available for you here. Just the tinyurl.com QR dash reading that you're also welcome to find me on Twitter either now or later. And I've framed this around motivation and procrastination, the lessons and overwhelm and academic reading. And I'm going to hopefully share some tips and tricks, but a little bit of my own journey with you as well. So to get us started just an overview of what I'll be talking about today, and I'm gonna begin with a portrait of a reader to be myself. And then moving forward talking about building your stack borrowing some language from NCTE, which I know Dr. Shelton will appreciate thinking about reading practice and reading as practice. And then thinking beyond overwhelm, which I think is a common thing when we're thinking about reading, at least for someone like me. So to begin, I wanted to insert a little comment here about this is really a portrait of a reluctant reader. So it felt like this image of this woman on her phone with her computer, that maybe with a text that she's turned her back to a really represents me a lot of days. And this is my reaction to how I felt to being asked to participate today was saying, what you asked me, I wouldn't say I particularly like reading. And then thinking, whenever I'm reading, I feel like I have to read a sentence, a paragraph, a page over and over again. And that's true, both as someone who is trying to often grasp ideas, theories, or in different sorts of ways remember the things that I'm reading. But it's also true in that I am someone who was recently diagnosed with ADHD. And so that sort of executive dysfunction and working memory is something that I've really been working through. And so I have a sigh here as well, in that having recently been diagnosed and started on some medications. Reading for me is something that is really quite different. And it's given me a new energy as I've moved forward with reading. So I'm coming to you today as someone who's practice reading a bit more recently in a new way, where I'm not having to reread sentences, pages and paragraphs over and over or reread articles over and over. But as someone who also has have had a lot of difficulty in reading at different times. So in thinking about those sorts of experiences, I wanted to start by talking a bit about myself as a reader, and both in graduate school and now as a faculty member. And so I have four big ideas here. The first is talking about building your stamina. And this is something that I borrow from my time when I was a first grade teacher. And we used to use this kind of program where we would talk about how you needed to build a young learners ability to sit and to read for longer periods of time. So we would start with just two minutes, two minutes of reading, and build up to having a little first grader who then is able to sit and read for 20 minutes. And this is something that I see as being really common and necessary for us in the world of academia, and learning to sit and read for long periods of time, or to pick up our reading and be interrupted by family members. But to come back to it in the same sort of way. And so in the same ways that we might build our stamina for working out, we need to do that too, for reading as well as for writing. The second sort of thing that I came into graduate school thinking about, and thanks to the wisdom of colleagues at Michigan State University who were farther along than I was in the program, as well as the wisdom of some of our faculty members who taught our initial pro seminars was to really not be afraid to divide and conquer our readings. So with a group of colleagues who are in my cohort, my first year at graduate school, we would take our readings for our Pro Seminar and each of us would really hone in on one particular reading, and then we would come together and we would share about those readings, having skimmed the other ones or maybe had more time to read some of them more closely than others. But it provided us a space to try out some of the ideas and you might want to talk about in class, to work through some of the questions you might have had in reading the different texts. But it also helped us to know that we didn't have to read every single word, which is something that I will come back to you throughout this sort of short presentation. 

Another thing that I think is really important that I definitely cried the first time my friend when Watanabe, who was a Michigan State student, and a bit more senior to me asked was, don't you the parts of an article, and I definitely didn't. So learning to deconstruct an article and identify that the parts that often exist, especially with an empirical work in qualitative research would be things like the abstract and the introduction and knowing how important those are to read really closely to give you a sense of what that pieces may be about, and then taking time to look at those different headings. And so those might be things related to the literature, review, the theoretical framework, the methods, the findings, and then moving forward to the discussion and conclusion. But knowing which parts of those you might want to hone in on to bolster your reading of that particular text or your understanding or to even just begin to understand if this is a piece that you really want to spend time thinking. So learning how to deconstruct an article is something that I talk about with my graduate students, as well as my undergraduate students in the various courses that I'm teaching. And if you're someone who's coming into graduate school or has been in graduate school and doesn't yet know how to recite those parts of an article don't feel bad I was I mentioned I definitely cried when she asked me because I felt frustrated that I didn't yet the fourth thing I have is that we have these reading rabbit holes that we can go down into and I think that reading rabbit holes can be really helpful. So for myself, I read everything by him Haas Dyson, he you and Karen Rowland really early on in my graduate school career as they're folks who are really engaged with ideas of qualitative research with critical lenses in thinking about children's play writing and literacies

And those are things I was really interested in. At the same time, I also went down other reading rabbit holes where I was then able to identify things that really weren't in my area were one of the things that I wanted to spend my focus and my time on. So I think that rabbit holes are great in terms of we can really come to know a researcher or an area very well, and know how those fit for us. But we can also use those opportunities to really think about the ways in which they maybe don't fit for us. And maybe we need to think differently about them in terms of thinking about myself now as a faculty member. And with some help from Carlson and Ashley, who are on the call and providing some additional prompts for how to go about this talk. One of the things that I think is really interesting is to think about how my reading has shifted. So as someone who is working often on multiple projects, my reading at this point is very much project driven. So I'm doing a lot of work right now in child radio, working with some middle grades, kids who are engaging in radio production themselves. And so really reading a ton about radio about podcasting about how that happens often at secondary and post secondary levels. But there's less about that for children. But that also means I'm reading in digital literacies. That means I'm reading in thinking about community based literacies. At other times, too, I'm also working on other projects that still relate to my dissertation. So I'm reading things about immigration, and I'm reading things related to the various methods that I use across these different projects. And so in many ways, I come to those readings with particular ideas about what it is I want to get out of them. So I do a lot of project based reading at this point that is a bit different than maybe in graduate school when I was reading both for coursework, as well as for my dissertations. I also read a lot in terms of maybe some of my stuff, if I'm stuck in my methods, I might go back to a really foundational text. That's also true for framing any theoretical framing that maybe I want to read additional empirical articles that have made use of that framing to see the ways in which they have applied it so that I can start to think about that for myself a little bit differently. I also do a lot of review based reading. And I say that both is someone who reviews for journals. So I'm an editor of curriculum inquiry and do a lot of reading for them, as well as people reviewing for various journals in qualitative research or in literacies in early childhood. And that's a great opportunity for me to keep up with what's new in the field. And at the same time, I'm to also engage in review of students work, my colleagues work as they're working to submit things as well. The last sort of thing I have here is inspiration seeking reading, which I think is something that I talked a lot about with my colleague John Wargo is thinking about, sometimes we just need to read something beautiful to help us get through the stuck points or think through our projects, and make sense of the words and work that we want to put forward ourselves. And so that's definitely something that I have been thinking a lot about, and try to incorporate into my everyday life if that's a book on Audible, or if that's like some poetry or some other short reading, or novels as well. So the next kind of thing I want to talk about is building our stack. So I've told you a bit about myself and my reading practices and how they've evolved. But thinking about how do we start to build our own stack. So I'm stealing a little bit from that old wedding adage of something old, something new, something borrowed, and something blue. But I'm putting Google in talking about things that are old, it's important for us to know like these foundational scholars and texts, and I put foundational in text because we know that there's a lot of inequities that have persisted in under representation of women, Junior Scholars, people of color, queer people, and so on. And so we need to be critical of foundational texts that of course, we do need to know them to some, in some respect, even if we're critiquing them, in terms of something new I BrowZine. So browsing on impress a text online BrowZine is a tool that you can do that you can connect it to your library and see articles that are actually not yet available, even on journal websites, but maybe they'll be published there. So that's a great way to pay attention to new articles, as well as following scholars on Twitter or following hashtags on Twitter following hashtags like a cite black women, just to help to bring yourself into conversation with newer pieces and different sorts of ways borrowed reading scholars and texts that are outside of your area. I think that's outside of your area of your little niche that is your dissertation work, but also maybe your specific field. And so I'm someone that is strongly in education, but I often borrow from writing Rhetoric and Composition scholars, I borrow from sound scholars who are involved in like ethnomusicology, or an anthropology in different sorts of ways. And those sorts of things have helped to make me think differently about my methods, but also about some of the work that I'm engaged in Googled, of course, we can set up our keywords, search things with keywords on Google Scholar, we can also set up different daily alerts reading his practice, I have here this image of this woman with headphones on but with music with books with the plant, so thinking about what it is that you need to be successful. How does this change based on what kind of reading you're doing when you're reading something theoretical? Is that different than reading something empirical? How, where do you need to be? What kinds of settings do you need to set up for yourself to find success in these sorts of moments? And I also think it's important that we have a plan for reading and a plan for how we're going to connect and recall the information. So that includes creating long and short term reading goals with wiggle room, but also developing a personally meaningful kind of system for collating

Tax. So I just put up a made up little thing here in terms of planning, I think it's useful to create like a long term plan for your vaults semester or for the summer for your reading, as well as for your writing. And that might mean you're reading for coursework at the same time that you're doing things for your dissertation. But maybe you're incorporating reading in other ways in terms of listening to podcasts, watching lectures, or also reading those fun, beautiful books. As I mentioned, things like the library book on Audible is really great. At the same time, there's a ton of resources available for how you can connect this work and ways in which you can recall it to scholars here that offer a ton of different insights, our role, patto, Cecco, Vega, and just Calarco, whose book I have here, and it's really great. They talk about things using citation management systems using color coding, but I think the primary thing we want to think about as we're reading is what you're reading, how does it push you forward in terms of helping you with your argument, or maybe helping you to understand how your argument would be countered? And what can you do to help you in that way, for me, I'm not someone who uses a management system and that citation management system, but I have a notebook where I take all of my notes, and I organize things often related to projects. So you don't have to feel bad if you're not someone who color codes, or someone who doesn't use a citation management system. There's lots of ways in but there's tons of resources. I mean, it's really about finding out what works for you. 

So a few recommendations to close out and help us move beyond overwhelm. And some of these are borrowed from Jeff Calarco, and others. But the first is to read like a researcher. So when we're approaching our texts that we're reading, it's important that we bring our questions that maybe we have for a specific thing I want to know about radio for in particular, but perceiving those questions or like new answers, so coming with a research question to the piece that you're reading, the next thing is just to take the first step. So sometimes it's really hard for me to just get initiated on a task. So sometimes it's helpful to just read the first chapter or just the abstract, or maybe to read a book review before you actually read a book to get a better feel for it, and to make yourself more comfortable with it. The next thing is to make decisions, you have to decide where to focus your efforts. In times, we're not going to be able to read every word, I haven't read every word of every book behind me. Instead, I read really strategically in terms of reading it for chapter to find out what chapters I want to read or skimming articles and different sorts of ways to focus specifically on the frame at work, or specifically on the methods or specifically on the findings. It's also important for you to track what you read. As I mentioned, I jot notes in a notebook. Some people write annotated bibliographies, others write direct quotes that they might want to incorporate into a document. And then they use that later. A few other things we want to think about this guy right here has lots of distractions, it is important that we limit our distractions that we have around us. So pausing notifications, using things like Do Not Disturb on your phone or on your computer, finding time away from others, maybe taking a writing retreat, sitting somewhere new visiting a cafe, instead of staying just in your home, maybe partaking in a favorite treat, like treating yourself to coffee as a means to sit down and write. Another idea is to consider reading as writing, I really see these as recursive process practices. So we really need to treat them like that when we're spending time reading, we know it's going to push us forward in our writing. And when we're writing, we're always building from those things that we've read. And those are things that we shouldn't forget. The last thing is just to remember that you really need to evolve your practice. So you and your reading practice are not static. As I mentioned at the beginning, I've had a lot of things that have shifted my practices, interbreeding and the different experiences I've had, and the things that I've learned from others have really pushed me forward in these sorts of ways. So I encourage you to think about that for yourself as well. So I'll close there, I'm just offered that if you have any questions, comments, compliments, or suggestions, you can feel free to reach out to me on Twitter. And I'm very excited to hear from our other panelists today. Thank you. 

Carlson Coogler  18:29  
Great. Thank you so much. That was wonderful. We're going to now move to Dr. Grayson Foster, who will be talking about writing. 

Dr. Guzman Foster  18:39  
 Thank you, Dr. Brownell, that was awesome. All right. So what I'm going to do today is I'm going to just share some tips, tricks and tips on how to get through with your how to really cope with your writing your dissertation. So the first thing and I do take note that institutions are different in what they do. But I really want to emphasize the importance of choosing a topic that you're passionate about, I believe, and I've seen with students who don't choose a topic that they're passionate about never finishing their abd they don't move on. But if it's something that you're passionate about, you're more likely to actually follow through with it and actually finish I hear different stories across the country about how students choose their topics. The one thing I want to encourage you to do is to not let anyone choose it for you. Again, this is your baby, your project. You choose what you're passionate about time. When you're writing your dissertation, you must be realistic. A lot of times the very first thing I ask my students when I meet with them is what is your timeline, and life happens. So you need to make sure you make room for those kinds of things. Also, reach out to your family to know what it's about to occur. You're doing your dissertation research. And writing goes along with that you're collecting data. And if you have a full time job or you're working talk to your employer to say this is about to happen in case any major projects are coming along so that we can manage your time better. I find that once students don't schedule a time to do their writing, they fall further behind, and then it takes them a little bit longer to actually finish. And not only that, they become discouraged and never pick up again. And so be realistic. And a little bit, I'm gonna talk about what you need to do as far as writing is concerned. But that time piece is so important, right every day as if it's an appointment, put it in your calendar. Also, if you're like, an age myself, but I didn't have a cell, I was doing my dissertation research. So what I would do without carry a little notebook in my purse, and wherever I was, whether I was in the waiting office, and my doctor, if I was waiting for someone that I was picking up, I would write anything that would come into my mind, I actually put that also on my nightstand because believe it or not, you dream about your dissertation, at least I did. And some of my students actually share that they do the same thing. So I put a notebook on my nightstand because I wake up with these thoughts about something an aha moment or some kind of something that I realized happen with data analysis. And I would write it down because believe it or not, I wouldn't remember the next day because of course, it happened while I was sleeping. But when I would pick up my notebook and see what I wrote, It makes total sense. And so that was one way also that I actually kept track of my thoughts. Because again, you're constantly thinking about your dissertation and you want to finish, you want to make sure it's great writing. But if you don't write every day, you're going to lose that passion and that motivation. And I think that students need to understand that it's important that you write every day, because if you go too long without writing, you may not want to pick up again, this is the one I really want to talk about, you need to silence your inner critic, all of us have that inner critic. And the idea is that you are at the point where you are because you worked hard, you are at the point that you are because you are a scholar, you are at the point where you are. So get rid of that inner critic that tells you Oh, you're never gonna finish or this is too much what am I get myself into silence that inner critic, it is so important that you do that. I know that's very hard to do, because I've been there myself. However, once I saw as my my inner critic being started to flow better, I started to find more motivation, more energy to actually finish my writing. Because you can't get discouraged when you read, you know, you receive comments from your committee or chair about revise and rewrite, know that it's not a personal attack on you. It's to help strengthen your writing, to help strengthen your study to make sure that you are able to demonstrate that you can actually do this. And you can, you wouldn't be at this point, if you couldn't. So make sure that you actually silence that inner critic chunking, which is a term I use sometimes when I was a K 12 teacher when you do things in different small parts. So I would do my chapter for small parts, I do my analysis and small parts, my conclusions, my findings, even the proposal piece, the first few chapters in small parts, and then put everything together at the very end. That worked for me may not work for you. But I highly recommend that you don't try to finish everything in one sitting. But basically try to do small parts every day. And that's where that little writing piece comes in work on one section one day work in another section another day. And the very end, you'll find that it's easier to put everything together because you've actually put the pieces and written the pieces. Now it's a matter of you putting together like a puzzle. And so working in small parts to me is one way to make sure that you don't get burned out that you don't get demotivated, it gives you fresh eyes every time you come back to another park the next day or the next week, and vice versa. This is something that I think is really hard for students to understand is that you're striving for progress, not perfection. Remember, this is your first time for many of you to actually do a research project or dissertation. And that doesn't mean that it can't be perfect. But I think many of us are perfectionist, and we tend to work towards that. But if you do that you're gonna burn yourself out. So it's about making progress, right and with your, hopefully with your charities, your advocate, that progress will be able to, you'll feel that progress, you'll see that progress. And at the very end, you'll see how much tremendous progress you've made. So remember that it's not about being perfect. It's about making progress for that final stage where you actually complete your dissertation and defend your dissertation. And that run is beautiful writing that you've actually completed on your own. Now, when I say on your own, that means you're writing it on your own, but you don't have to do this alone. I think too many times people and our students think they need to do this by themselves. No, you don't reach out to your peers, reach out to your chair, reach out to your committee members. You don't have to do this alone. It's okay to ask for feedback. It's okay to ask questions. It's okay to ask for help. Again, isolation, I think is really not a really good habit to have when you're writing, especially when you're writing your dissertation. Reach out to your peers. I know many of my students actually have partners that they're working with. And that seems to work really well because they keep each other motivated. They pump each other up. They give each other accolades. They also give each other constructive feedback, right because that feedback is very important, especially when it comes from your peers because I believe that our peers it's funny because I think that many times, peer teaching and peer alert learning is so much more stronger than myself doing it because I like to think of it as they're talking in student language versus faculty language. That makes sense. But I believe that our peers really are helpful. And again, reach out to your committee members, because that's what they're there are there, that's when they are there for. 

One thing I need to really explain is that you need to practice self compassion as well. This is not easy. Dissertation. Work takes time. dissertation writing takes time, you go through many different phases, you go through many different revisions, revisions, so it's easy to get discouraged. But when you do reach a point where you've made progress, reward yourself, do something nice for yourself, go get a pedicure, I don't know, go get a manicure, read a book that's not an academic book, go see a movie, hang out with your friend, call your mom, do something that is nice for yourself, because that's a reward that you've actually made progress and you deserve it. You can't continue to work. And if you don't ever do that, if you don't take care of yourself. And what will happen is you'll end up being frustrated, stressed, and you may actually hate your dissertation, which we hope that doesn't occur. One of the things that many people do, and I'm guilty of this as well is not for many While You Write tend to always want to go back and you make either color code and you run yourself, you have to go back and do proper citation. To save time, I would highly recommend that you actually do proper citation while you're writing so that way when you do defend your dissertation, and it's ready to go, and if you hire an editor, they'll have less work to do. And it'll be much more quicker to get your dissertation to come to the university so it can get published. Because what happens is sometimes, this is the last part they asked you to format, they asked you to do all the formatting correctly. And I don't know if everybody's APA but we do APA and then that takes time. And some people don't actually do it and believe it or not, they don't finish. And to me, that just seems like a just a lost cause. So if you can try to cite as you write because I think and format as you write because it does help save time at the end. Sometimes we think that this is going to be the best work that we're gonna ever do in a whole entire life. It's not our dissertation is not always our best work. It is a time where you can prove and demonstrate that you can actually do a research project. All of us who are overachievers, myself included perfectionist, myself included, have a hard time with this sometimes, but just know it is going to be great work, but it's not going to be your best. And that's okay. That's okay. Because guess what, as you're moving forward, and you finally get past this step more is to come more work is to come and more best work, several best works will come after your dissertation. You'll kill yourself with stress thinking that this has to be your best work. And then finally, I want to remind you guys and ladies, that you are scholars, you will not be here right now, if you are not a scholar, every student who enters my classroom are scholars don't let anyone ever take that away from you, you are a scholar, and you're going to do this reading, you're going to finish this reading. So remember a topic that you're passionate about. Write every day, do small parts, making appointments you're writing every day, keep a notebook or your phone or your nightstand so you can record anything. And then also don't do this alone. Reach out to others, whether it's your peers, or your chair or your committee members. Those are the tips that I have for you to actually finish your dissertation. If you find yourself demotivated, just not sure that you want to move forward. That's what your peers are there for. And that's what your chairs there for. Because guess what I know myself as a chair, I'm the biggest cheerleader for my students, and I advocate for them. But I'm also there for them. And space is life happens. Whatever happens, life happens to get them back on track. So those are my tips and tricks. I hope that you enjoy them. And let me know if you have any questions and reach out to me. 

Carlson Coogler  28:44  
Great, thank you so much. Really wonderful, Doc. Now we're now going to move to Dr. Shelton, who will be talking about the dissertation and job search process.

Dr. Shelton  28:55  
As Carlson mentioned as part of my introduction, that I'm a first generation student. And so I want to bring that back up just because I want to emphasize that neither part of what I'm about to talk about was there's nothing intuitive about it. I always felt like maybe I was an idiot, or I was behind or whatever, because I didn't get certain things. And I would just I want to emphasize that whether you're first generation or not, there's nothing intuitive about the distribution or the job search. And if you don't know things that's natural and normal, and you need to not be embarrassed about finding out and so I'm going to talk about the two together first, Dr. Guzman Foster's presentation leads really nicely and it's an I think so for both the dissertation and the job talk. I do the job search. I do want to emphasize that you have options. I think a lot of times and academia there are defaults, and a lot of times because students don't know and are hesitant to ask, they don't know that there are choices and I'm gonna talk more about what that means in just a bit but you're in not stuck with a particular format or particular type of job trajectory. 

The other thing is for both a dissertation and for job searches to be really intentional and realistic for the intentionality, I'm really emphatic with my students, they need to make sure that there's not a lot of wasted motion doctoral programs can be very exhausting. And to waste a lot of motion is not a good use of your time, your energy, your resources, or your capacity. And then the trajectory as well. Like it's really important. I'll talk more about that too. But it's really important to be really honest with yourself about what you need to feel happy to feel like you've been successful and to be able to take care of yourself, and others you might be responsible for. And then the other thing for both the dissertation and the job search is finding faculty who support you. And I know that a number of you have those people, but some of you don't. And it's really important that you have access to faculty who are committed to help him make sure that you're okay that you're supported, that if you ask questions that you worry are dumb, they're going to be there to help provide information and feedback and support so that you realize like number one, I'm not dumb. But number two, here's the next step. Or here's what you need to understand. I remember very vividly sitting with my advisor, and I was Peters Samgorinsky, at the University of Georgia. And I was like, Peter, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And he's like, Yeah, nobody does. And that was simultaneously horrifying and comforting. But it took a lot to say to him, I didn't know what I was doing. And so I just want to really emphasize that there are choices, there are options, there are ways to make this process, both processes, dissertation and job search work well, for you. There's other parts of it, you don't have a lot of control over but these are things that you do have control over. And so I'm gonna I'm going to emphasize these

For dissertations. I'm going to talk through each of these. And then if there's more information that you want in any particular one, when we get to the q&a Certainly asked. So the first thing about dissertations is that there's more than two formats, a lot of institutions like it's either the five chapter dissertation or nothing. And then other institutions think that they're really progressive, because they have the five chapter dissertation and the three article option. Those are both great options. So those are certainly formats that have served many people well. But there's a lot of other ways to approach dissertations too. And you need to really think about if the five chapter dissertation has done a great deal of sense for you, if the three chapter or the three article, dissertation doesn't seem to be a good alignment, there's other options. And what's really important is that a lot of institutions, especially us based public institutions, previous dissertations that have been successfully defended are often public domain. And which means that you can access those for free. And there's been a range of dissertations that have for example, made like national news and so on a student at Georgia whose dissertation was a fashion show, but was a PhD in literacy, a student at Clemson whose whose dissertation was a rap album, we've had students here at Alabama who have done dissertations that involve, for example, like soundscapes and an art gallery walkthroughs as part of their research methodology, PhD, and in each moment, it was really appropriate for that particular student that they do their dissertation in an unconventional way. And so I really just I want to emphasize, if your faculty members seem I don't know how to do that, I don't know what that looks like. It's okay to provide them resources. But it's also okay to reach out to various communities. There's a lot of online communities on various social media platforms, for example, but to understand that the five chapter dissertation and the three article dissertation are not the only ways that one can dissertate Sometimes other approaches just make better sense for you.

The other thing is, when you're getting ready to do your dissertation, you need to really think about what is the plan post dissertation because one of the ways that you are intentional about the format of your dissertation is being intentional about what your dissertation supposed to accomplish for you. I will say that when I was a doc student, I elected to do the three articles dissertation, I could, I think I would have had the support to have done whatever I ultimately elected to do, so long as I was able to make it make sense. But I decided I wanted to do the three article because I wanted to have articles ready to send out because my intention was to get a research methodology job, which nearly always as is that a research intensive institution. So I knew that publication was going to be really important for my future success. But what that means is my dissertation format aligned with my goals and my trajectory for myself. And so you need to really think about like how what I'm going to do in my dissertation going to help me with post dissertation, because if you're just thinking about the dissertation as I gotta get it done, whatever. I've seen, a lot of people have to do a lot of just really tedious and exhausting work to try to then rip the scenes out of the dissertation to make it be something that is more useful for them. Had they just chosen a different format that was more aligned with their goals. Everything would have been better correlated. Another thing is and this is gonna sound really silly to some of you, but I'm being really sincere about it. Does your dissertation feel good to you? Does it feel good for you? Because this is a pretty big commitment. In nearly all cases, there's a lot of data collection, there's a lot of data analysis in most cases, and there's a lot of writing. And if you're miserable for the entirety of the time that you're working on your dissertation, that's not a great place to be. That's not a healthy place to be. And I also want to really emphasize it's not a normal place to be, I feel like academia does this really phenomenal job of normalizing stress, normalizing exhaustion, normalizing anxiety, and it doesn't have to be that way. Your dissertation should be something where ideally you feel empowered, you feel excited, and that's not going to necessarily be the case all the time. Because we all get tired, we all get frustrated, but the dissertation overall should feel good. And if it doesn't, what what are the issues that are getting in the way of it feeling right? If you're going like a good fit, I feel like it's something that's helping you to feel successful and whatever those issues are, like, are they resolvable? Are they like, are they resolvable by virtue of maybe renegotiating some aspects of the situation format? Are they resolvable? Maybe I'm pulling in like a new faculty member to be a committee member to help support other aspects that the other committee members aren't not are not super aware of? or understand. If they're not resolvable? Why are they not resolvable? And to what degree can you live with those because I do recognize that some doctoral students don't have a lot of say in control. But I do think that it's really important as much as possible. And this goes back to the points earlier about taking care of yourself, making sure that your dissertation is not something that is just you just feel like it's beating you down.

Related to that, be realistic, and be kind to yourself, I have seen students have this attitude of, I'm going to do all these things. I'm going to get all this done, and I'm going to write my dissertation over spring break. I'm not going to say it's not possible, I am going to say that it's not necessarily realistic. I mean, it's certainly not being kind to yourself. And so when faculty members tell you things like maybe you should revisit your timeframe, maybe you should revisit the plan that you have, a lot of times they're not doing that to undermine you. They're not doing that to try to throw obstacles in your way. Sometimes it's because they're trying to help you do yourself a favor. And so be realistic, how long, for example, it takes for you to write a course paper, a dissertation is a different level of that. And so whatever that course paper timetable is, you need to multiply that several times over and think about how can I make sure that what I'm doing again, feels good. 

Another thing I'm going to add, it always really frustrated me when I was a doc student, when people would treat the dissertation like it was some sort of like mythological beast that had to be endured and slayed. Everybody that gets a doctoral degree generally knows that dissertation is coming at the end. And so don't treat it like it's some kind of dragon that you have to pass through the cave and avoid the gaping jaws of the beast. It's an expected part of the journey. And if you work to be intentional, it can be really enjoyable. In many moments. I will say as a side note that for my dissertation, when I started writing it, collecting the data was great, I got to interact with participants that were really wonderful and amazing. analyzing the data was a lot of work. But it also was great, because I felt like I was really learning things. But when I started writing it, I had a whole new perspective and a whole new appreciation for just how amazing my participants were. And it really made me sad that some of my peers just it just felt like they were just surviving and enduring their dissertation. And it didn't need to be that way. And sometimes faculty feed into that, because a lot of times faculty unfortunately participate. And this idea that academia needs to be a you need to be exhausted, you need to be stressed out, you need to be busy. And so try to surround yourself with people that support you approaching this process in healthy, sustainable and positive ways. You've got to do it. So do it in a way that makes sense and is sensible, and is kind your committee, their job should be earlier, the previous speaker talked about, I'm a student's best cheerleader, your committee should be there to make you better, and one of their jobs and making you better. And this was referenced, I think in both of the previous talks, but definitely the writing one. They're going to provide you feedback. And I think sometimes that feels like it's just criticism, like I did everything wrong and didn't do everything right. But their job, they're allocating a lot of energy and time and expertise, and trying to give you constructive feedback to make you better. No committee should just give you a blank check and be like, Oh, this is great. You just do whatever you want to do. It's great. And I've seen that happen. I've seen students construct committees because they knew that this was the path of least resistance. That's not a great use of your time. It's not a great use of your knowledge. It's not a great use of your doctoral journey, to just basically be given this free pathway to completion that's not honoring the process that you've engaged and it's not honoring at the end you putting Doctor in front of your name. Conversely, however, faculty shouldn't create these obstacle courses they shouldn't constantly be obstructionist. In terms of you moving forward, and so making sure that you have you select your committee in nearly all cases, making sure that when you choose those people, you're choosing people that are they're prepared to, in fact, be your cheerleaders to tell it to give you potentially hard feedback, but also being prepared to help guide you through what to do with that feedback. 

And the last thing, and this is gonna sound really silly. But do you make sure your committee members can actually work together, there's a lot of personalities in academia, I'm sure you have all found that to be the case. And there are sometimes instances where faculty members are just paradigmatically, opposed like that, just their understanding of how data gets analyzed how findings get written up, they're just they're completely, they're completely incongruent. And that's not necessarily useful for you. And so make sure when you're building this committee of cheerleaders and support system, that they're also willing and able to support one another, it makes your experience so much easier. And these are things that by and large, I think you have control over there's a lot of aspects that dissertation you don't necessarily have a lot of control over. But these are things that to some degree to differing degrees, depending on where you are, you do have some say in most of these aspects of it.

For the for the job market, the job market could just about be a full time job. I was stunned when I went on the job market, just how much time being on the job market took, it was shocking to me, frankly. And most of the time, when you're on the job market, you're also like deserting, you're getting ready to defend etc. And so it's a lot. And so I think it's useful for you to be prepared for the fact that you're going to have to carve some space and energy and time out to apply for jobs. So relative to you applying for jobs. First and foremost, there's more out there than just research intensive and teaching intensive jobs. The university that I went to was a research intensive institution and the department that I graduated from was a very publish or perish culture. And the effect of that was that as doctoral students, we were basically raised, if you will, to understand that the purpose of a PhD was solely to seek tenure track research intensive jobs, ultimately. And finally, that's what I decided that I wanted for a range of reasons. But at the beginning, I didn't feel like I had any choice. And it wasn't until I was probably in year three or four that I realized hold out like, this isn't what I have to do. Because that expectation was so normalized that it felt like it was the only choice. There are a range of different kinds of positions out there. I have friends, I have a friend who sought out positions specifically at small liberal arts colleges, because she wanted that connectedness. She wanted that really small student body. She wanted the connectedness between faculty, she wanted to feel like the institution was really knitted into the community where it was situated, she is thriving there. Because she was really thoughtful about what she needed to be happy and successful post PhD. Another friend knew that she loved teaching she wanted to teach, that's what she wanted to do. So that's what she looked for. In job posts, she wanted to be a faculty member, there are other people that I came from a K 12 classroom too. And I renew my teaching certificate before I graduated as a just in case. But there were a number of people that elected that they wanted to go back into a k two o'clock classroom, that was their choice. And they again, love it. They're delighted there. And there was really a culture in the department that sought to make them feel like they had failed somehow, by pursuing the very trajectory that they had, that they were after. And so just be really aware of the fact that you have choices, you have options, whatever the default, whatever the assumption is at your university, in your department in your program, you actually you have some choices, and you don't have to default to those just because other if you're going to the doctor for your name, other people shouldn't get to tell you what to do with your life.

The other thing is be really honest with yourself about what's sustainable for success. And I'm going to give you an example of this. I had a friend, I have a friend, I don't know why I'm using past tense. I have a friend when we were doctoral students, again, it was very publisher perish culture. So we're all publishing our little hearts out not knowing what we're doing, frankly. And it made her miserable. She hated to have to publish, but then she because of the culture, and that department saw research intensive jobs. And so then she landed in a tenure track job where she was expected to publish extensively. And she's been miserable. And I frankly worry about her regularly because I wonder what would it have been like? Had you felt like you had choices? What would it have been like had you better aligned, where you landed as a faculty member with what gave you joy, what you felt like you were really good at versus what you felt like you had to do and so be really honest, if you really enjoy the research, that's great. Know that about yourself if you find teaching tedious and annoying. Know that about yourself. If teaching is what gives you joy. That's where you find yourself putting energy and time know that about yourself. If you know that you don't want to have a part in higher education know that about yourself.

I do want to be really honest and say there are fewer tenure track jobs every year and more more universities and colleges post clinical positions and research based positions, the University of Alabama has started to have more and more assistant research professor positions, for example. And that's not scary. It's just real. Because, again, this is an opportunity for you to be really honest with yourself. There's I have a couple of colleagues here, who are assistant research professors, and will eventually move into being Associate Research professors. That was their jam, they want to do research, they want to pursue grants, they want to pursue fellowships, they didn't want to allocate a ton of time to teaching and teaching, preparation, and so on. So that shift in the market was really useful for them. And so know that about yourself, but also just have a realistic notion of what the market looks like, this year has looked really good relative to quality and your track jobs, frankly, last year, not good at all. Who knows, I went to the job market two years, the first year was really awful. It was the great recession. And there were two jobs that whole year. And both of them really wanted like advanced people. And as a doc student, I was not that person next year was there are also non academic jobs that you can keep in mind you can be aware of there are tons of government agencies or tons of nonprofits that are very interested in PhDs and interested in the skill sets a PhD earnings earners have and so be aware of the fact that you don't have to go into academia, nor do you have to go into some facet of education. For example, this is a qualitative research SIG sponsored event. And so a lot of you presumably are interested in research, there's lots of places to value those skill sets. And frankly, some of them pay better than higher education, I would also recommend that if you are early in your doctoral journey, I know that initially, we would have a listserv, and there would be all kinds of like job posts that would be sent out and I'd be like, I'm in my first year delete, I realized after the fact, it really is useful to look at them just to have a notion of what people are asking for, to have a notion of what jobs are out there. Because it was really like, once I started to pay attention to them, I realized, like, you can look at a job post to be like, Oh, that's so cool, I want that or I don't want that job at all ever. And that tells you something about yourself. And it tells you something about what you need to do relative to your pathway to make yourself competitive for some of those jobs. And related to that, when you're looking at the job posts. If you're close to the finish line, use your research or skills that have gotten you to the point where you're at the finish line and like really examine them really look at what they're asking for. And so to that effect, applying for jobs, I only have one more slide for this one. When you're applying for jobs, there is always a required section, or a mandatory section pay attention to that because that is not suggested. Typically, those required elements are actually required, by law, required by accreditation standards, whatever. But if you look at that job posting, there's required thing that you don't meet, you're almost certainly not going to be competitive for that job. We had an assistant professor of qualitative research job here at the university. One of the required aspects was, whoever replied have at least 18 hours in qualitative research methodology coursework, and we weeded out probably 60% of the applicants because they didn't meet that requirement. And that wasn't something we had any control over that was required. And so pay attention to what they say is required because you actually do need to be able to check those things off. Research the institution find out what it's like what what is an institution? What are they about? What are their missions? Were their visions? They aligned with yours? Does this seem like a play? Like, are you excited? You're gonna have to probably live in this place. Is it exciting to live in this place? Or does it make you potentially miserable? Research them use the skills that have gotten you through your doctoral journey research them? Look at who they've recently hired and or who they recently tenure? Are the lots of people leaving and people seem really happy and successful? Are people staying for long periods of time? What are the people who recently got hired? What are their meters look like beforehand? People who recently got tenure, what are their views look like? It gives you a notion of what does it mean to be successful in this place relative to getting hired and then being able to stay?

When you are when you're like applying for this job I'm applying for this job is the jam. It's awesome. Write a letter for that job generic cover letters for job for academic jobs, you're not going to work, it's going to get you tossed out. You need to pay attention to what the job post says and incorporates some of that language and acknowledged some aspects of what they're asking for in that cover letter. If you want to actually move into potentially having an interview to get an interview. There's really standard interview questions that are pretty typical for most academic jobs, things like why do you want to work here at this institution? What about the what about this job excites you? If they're research intensive, they're gonna ask you questions about your research trajectory, with their teaching intensive, they're gonna ask you questions about like your teaching experience, and so on. A lot of the job interview questions that are fairly that you would expect are actually pretty typical, especially at the preliminary interview stage. And so prepare for those do you get a campus visit even if it's virtual these days? Practice before you go especially like your either your job talk and or teaching demonstration depending on what they're asking of you and do it in front of other people get feedback from them. My first research job talk practice was awful. But it was really useful to hear myself say it and know that I sucked because then I could get feedback and make it better. And then essentially, because it's cliche, but you're interviewing them to, I interviewed for and had a campus visits were an institution that it was very clear to me like I was gonna be super miserable in that space, and that you need to be aware of those things when you need to decide like, am I going to be okay with being miserable here for whatever amount of time? Or is this just not a place for me. And then the other thing is, there's aspects of the job search and the job hiring process in academia that you have no control over. And a lot of times, it's not personal, it's hard not to take it personally. But when they didn't want me, they didn't hire me, whatever. But sometimes they need a very specific skill, they need a very specific complimentary person to like another person that's there. It's not actually about you, and you don't have any control over that you can't like change the very nature of who you are and your scholarship to accommodate this institution. You wouldn't want to do that anyway. And so sometimes, if you don't get an interview, if you don't get a campus visit, if you don't get the job, it's not actually anything that you did. It's just that you weren't the right fit. And it's hard to hear that, but it's true. I've seen it on both sides as both the job candidate and as someone who's been a search committee chair and search committee member, and as somebody who's helped to negotiate hiring, and then actually, that was my last slide. I thought I had another one. So that those are mine. That's my overview. And as the others had said, I'm very happy to take questions and be as honest as I can possibly be.

Carlson Coogler  51:08  
Great. Thank you so much, Dr. Shelton. Okay, so we are going to move to the question and answer portion. And please, if everyone will, please put your questions in the chat as a reminder, then the committee members will be pulling those and we will ask them to our participants. And also I am going to go ahead and put in the chat, we have a quick little first our email if you want to get in contact with us, if you don't want to to our listservs. And also a quick little forums, you can give us some feedback on this event. And you know, what topics you might want to hear about in the future, that sort of thing. So if you would please fill that out after at the end of this meeting? That will be awesome. Okay, our first question. And again, it's panel so anyone can answer. What do you wish you spent more time on as a person professionally, and as a junior academic, like professionally, while you are pursuing your PhD, 

Dr. Shelton  51:55  
I think I wish that I had spent more time taking courses and other disciplines, it's really easy to put yourself into a silo as a doctoral student, because it's very, it's very much a degree of like, milestones seven inches wide. That's how it's designed to work. But like looking back, I realized, like, there were moments when I could have taken a class like in a different department or in a different college. And I really, I think that I don't think it would have changed my trajectory in terms of where I landed. But I think it potentially would have offered me new ways of thinking, new ways of considering research and so on. And so that's one thing that I do regret as a doc student that I wish I had done. 

Dr. Brownel  52:31  
I think that one of the things that I heard maybe later in my doctoral career that I wish I would have known in years like one and two more so I guess, but I think learning how to cautiously say no, and no thank you to things while also keeping doors open. And I think that's true, both in terms of opportunities to be on panels or to engage in like lots of different activities. But I think learning how to say no, early on is a useful thing, especially as I think my co panelists mentioned, like you're working towards this goal of your dissertation is not the end of your career, but like hopefully a launch pad for the rest of your career. And so making sure that you do get an array of like experiences, but making sure that those experiences are things that you're really committed to, and that will really push your work, your thinking, your connections, your network and your well being in useful ways. Because sometimes you get a little stretch and overwhelmed because we feel like we have to do everything in graduate school. 

Dr. Shelton  53:30  
I'm going to add another thing real quick, if that's okay, if you will allow me the lot like the other thing that I wish I had known early on, was it no one knows what they're doing. I feel like I like the entirety of my first year of my doctoral experience. I felt like other people knew what was happening. Other people knew what was going on. Like, they knew all this terminology. They knew all these theorists, they're using all these big words. And as I progressed through my doctoral degree, I realized like, they didn't know anything, they didn't they had vocabulary to throw around to make it sound like they knew stuff. But like they didn't know anything, either. And, and so like, just recognizing that like the whole imposter syndrome, people that people talk about, it's real, but like, You're not an idiot. I think that's I think what I wish I had realized I wasn't dumb. I wasn't behind. I just wasn't participating in this facade, and this fronting that people would like often do.

Dr. Brownel  54:19  
I'm gonna jump back in again, I'm really sorry, Carlson, because I'm gonna throw this out because similar to Stephanie, I feel those sorts of ways. But I think that this book is really great. Just Clark, this book, which is a field guide to grad school, which talks about like the hidden curriculum of graduate school, because there's a lot of that that's true both for Professor Orient, but especially in graduate sc

In this episode, Jessica Van Cleave (QR SIG Chair),  Alexandra Panos (Program Co-chair), and Cassie Quigley (Program Co-Chair) preview the Qualitative Research SIG's program for the AERA 2022 conference. They share about the business meeting, the conference hybrid format, tips for having a successful conference, and much more. Below are helpful conference links and the transcript of the conversation. 

QR SIG AERA 2022 Program in Google Doc form: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tP3sxCO91cc-qGYpw876t8adf1L_K1fy0cA2WsrP0DA/edit
AERA video training for presenters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKfPWsLcI0c

Jessica Van Cleave  0:20  
Welcome to qualitative conversations the podcast of the qualitative research Special Interest Group at AERA. I'm Jessica Van Cleave, the chair of the QR SIG, and I'm happy to be joined today by Cassie Quigley and Alex Panos, our program co-chairs. In this episode, we preview the QR SIG's program for the 2022 AERA annual meeting, discuss what members can expect from the hybrid format, and highlight opportunities to connect for QRC graduate students and members. 

Dr. Cassie Quigley is an associate professor of science education and Chair in the Department of teaching, learning and leading at the School of Education at the University of Pittsburgh. She received her doctorate doctorate in Curriculum and Instruction at Indiana University in 2010. Dr. Quigley's his expertise in qualitative research is focused on methodologies that center the participants such as community based methodologies, using data collection methods such as photo methods. In the past 11 years, she has published over 50 articles and book chapters focused on these methods, including in journals such as the International Journal of qualitative studies and education, qualitative inquiry, the Journal of mixed methods research. She also co authored a book on STEAM education titled An educators guide to STEAM education, which is published by teachers college press. She has presented her qualitative work at numerous conferences both nationally and internationally. Additionally, she serves as a program co chair of the American Educational Research Association's Qualitative Research Special Interest Group. She teaches qualitative research methodology courses on topics such as participatory action, research, validity and reliability for qualitative work and ethics around educational research. Cassie is completing her three year term as program co chair this year, and she's done an incredible job during this unusual and ever changing time for eight era and the annual meeting. I'm so grateful for her service and dedication and putting together meaningful programs over the past three years and she will be missed on the executive committee. 

Alexandra Panos is an assistant professor of literacy studies and affiliate faculty and measurement and research in the College of Education at the University of South Florida. She earned her doctorate in literacy, language and culture education with a minor in inquiry methodology at Indiana University Bloomington in 2018. Dr. Panos takes an interdisciplinary stance in her work as a critical qualitative methodologist and grounds her theoretical methodological and empirical work. In her substantive field of literacy studies. She has published numerous articles and book chapters that focus on the critical environmental and spatial dimensions of qualitative methodologies of literacy studies. Most recently, she has served as senior guest editor on a special issue focusing on the spatial dimensions have taken for granted qualitative research practices related to masking and anonymization published in the International Journal of qualitative studies and education. We are fortunate to have Alex remain as a program co chair one more year to complete her three year term after the 2023 annual meeting. 

So what we wanted to start by talking about is the fact that the annual meeting this year is hybrid. And this is the first time that AERA has has held the meeting in hybrid format. So how has that impacted the program? And what can attendees expect? Um, overall, that means that some of our sessions are going to be in person, and some of them are going to be virtual. And the virtual sessions are going to be accessible through Passable, which is the platform that Ara has hired this year and contracted with to provide the virtual conference experience. The in person sessions are going to look just like in person sessions have always looked at AERA. And so members can anticipate either attending sessions if they have registered for the in person or place based meeting, or I'm logging on to the Passable platform and attending via zoom, kind of similar platform. It's kind of zoom embedded within passable in order to access the virtual sessions. And then as happened last year, poster presentations are going to be provided in the virtual gallery that will be accessible both through the passable platform and the eight year website in our virtual gallery. 

Alexandra Panos  4:41  
One thing to add to that, Jessica, sorry, I cut you off. I was just going to add that the play space participants can access the virtual platform space so for them it really is hybrid. But if you're a virtual, you can't access all playspace sessions. There are some that will be made available and streamed live through passable as well.

Jessica Van Cleave  5:08  
That's right, Alex. Yeah. So So depending on how you register, you're going to have access to different types of sessions. If you are in the playspace session, you'll have access to all of the various sessions. So I'm Cassie, can you give us an overview of the QR sync program? How many sessions there are and what kind of topics that attendees can expect to find?

Cassie Quigley  5:30  
Yeah, absolutely. We're really excited. And thank you all for your, you know, your work in the QR SIG. We will have seven in person paper or symposium sessions, we will have four virtual sessions that are paper or symposium sessions, one virtual business meeting, so hope to see you there and one in person mentoring session. So for the mentoring session, a folks who are participating have already received that information. And this is a closed session. But if you're interested in learning more, or joining this session next year, this is an annual event and you can contact them mentoring committee chair, Kelly Guyette. We have other exciting opportunities for mentorship as well, including mentor mentee office hours, we're so fortunate to have so many committed mentors, we thank them for their time and service to the QR SIG. And, Alex, do you want to just talk to us a little bit about the process for reviewing and accepting submissions? And what kind of things we tend to take into account as we're doing this work?

Alexandra Panos  6:38  
Yeah, definitely. Cuz he, um, so every year, the call goes out after after the conference. And then as program coaches, we wait for submissions, and look forward to receiving them. When we get submissions through the platform. We review each submission to be sure that they're complete, that they are a good fit for our SIG that there aren't any anonymization issues with those. And then we go on to invite reviewers who have expertise in the area of each proposal. So we've read each proposal, we invite reviewers to join us and thinking about those and give us their expert feedback. This is one of the reasons why we so value our SIG member reviewers, you are so essential to this process. I don't think Cassie and I could explain that enough. If you want to review in the future. Just a quick note, it's really helpful to indicate your areas of expertise using the keyword feature when you sign up to review. Because after we get the submissions when we review them, we make matches based on folks expertise. And once those reviews are returned, after a lot of hard work by reviewers, we carefully go through them looking at both the quantitative and qualitative feedback that each reviewer provides to determine which papers to accept. This year, we had fewer places, fewer allocated sessions and papers than we have in past year. So we definitely had to make a lot of difficult decisions. But as we process all the information we have available, we really take into account the reviews of these of the experts we invite to join us in this process, which includes three reviewers and one graduate student reviewer. And another thing about the system: how we access things. So we work on that back end system of AERA, which please sign up to review next year using that system. But it's a little different than the actual access to the conference system. So Jessica, I know you've been attending a lot of trainings on this. I wonder if you can share a little bit about how members can access the sessions that they want to attend through the political platform.

Jessica Van Cleave  8:57  
Yeah, absolutely. Alex, thank you. So if you are in San Diego, then the way that you attend sessions that are placed based in San Diego is you just go to them. So that is the easy part. Right? That's what we're used to doing. That is what's familiar back in the olden days of 2019. That is how we used to attend AERA, that option is still available and it's fantastic. So, if you have registered for the place based session, then that is how you will attend in person sessions. Now if you are a virtual registrant, you cannot attend to those playspace sessions. AERA is not planning to stream or record place-based sessions except for a select few as Alex mentioned earlier, like the Presidential sessions and things like that. Otherwise, the in person face to face playspace sessions are only accessible by those who are in San Diego attending the conference. If you are in San Diego, you can also attend the virtual sessions are obviously if you're a virtual registered, then you'll be attending those virtual sessions as well or presenting in that platform. And the way that you will access those sessions is through the passable platform. So, invitations we have been told should be going out the week of March 28. Once you get an invitation to the passable platform, you will create a profile. And from that platform, you'll be able to view your own presentations, add items to your schedule and create your your serve AERA personalized experience through that platform. You must register for the meeting to gain access either as a presenter or as a participant, we've been told that there are some things in place that make it so that those virtual sessions can only be accessed through the platform. And then within the platform, they host a zoom. So that will look familiar. Accessing virtual sessions will look like the kinds of virtual sessions we've been accessing and hosting ourselves for the last couple of years. So all of the the interfaces interactions, and what it looks like will be very familiar to us. And that same opportunity to share your screen and use presentation tools and software that you can use in zoom will be available through passable. So AERA has a lot of additional information, as well as specific trainings both for presenters and exhibitors and chairs that can be found on their website. And we'll include some links in the description to the podcast so that you can access those directly. If you have some, some specific questions, or you want to go through the process and see what it looks like prior to getting your invitation. AERA has also told us that based on those trainings and the questions that were asked during the sessions, they're putting together an FAQ to support members in accessing. And again, virtual sessions can be accessed by registrants who are placed based or virtual. And except for key sessions in person sessions can only be accessed for members who are registered for the in person meeting and they won't be streamed. So that's that's sort of how we can get there. We'll be finding out more information. And once the platform launches, and we receive those invitations, we'll be working on putting together some some access and information for our members to that we'll be sending out through the listserv. So I'm one of the things that we do at the annual meeting, in addition to our content sessions, is our business meeting. Cassie, can you talk to us a little bit about what members can expect if they attend the business meeting?

Amy Stich  12:42  
Yeah, we're really excited for the business meeting. And that business meetings on Saturday, April 23, and it will begin at 6pm. Pacific Time, the agenda will include a welcome from our president and then moving on to acknowledgement for for the work. And then we move into some committee and activity reports from our various committees, which is just a really nice way to kind of learn more about the QR SIG. And also here, what we've been doing over the last year. Then we have the Outstanding Dissertation reward award. And then the Egon G Guba. Award, we will announce as well. And we will end right around seven just after 7pm Pacific Time, you do not need to register for the business meeting. It is open to all members. And this will be a virtual event which so then it's open to both people who are in person in San Diego and have registered for the virtual events. So we're really looking forward to seeing you all there. It's a wonderful event to learn ways to get involved. And also just learn more about the work that we've been doing over the last year. So we're really looking forward to seeing you all there. Um, Alex, what suggestions do you have for members who might be curious about ways to navigate AERA program and take advantage of our exciting sessions and I'm thinking particularly if I'm a new member to the QR SIG, or this is the first time I'm attending AERA can be a little overwhelming.

Unknown Speaker  14:22  
Oh my goodness. Yes, Ara is a very large space with more sessions than it's possible to imagine sometimes it feels like so one of the ways that's really helpful, and why I love being a member of the QR SIG or other units in AERA is that it can create. If you take a lens of a sig or a division as a unit. To navigate AERA you have an ability to create a more personalized program based on your areas of interest and expertise. The kinds of scholarly conversations you want to be a part of. So when you're in the, the program itself, when you log into all academic or into the patible program, there should be searchable tools for you. So you can search by someone's name, like you really want to see a specific scholar and you want to talk to that person. But you can also search by unit. And when you search by unit, you have opportunities to search by SIG or by division. And so we of course, recommend that you go check out the QR SIG, and its program but you can also search and other units. So for us qualitative, folks, division D is another wonderful place to look because those are also all methodology conversations over there. And they have lots of qualitative conversations to be had there. So I just always recommend that you really think about the scholarly conversations you want to be a part of, and you find ways to streamline your exploration in in that way. But I think becoming a member of a SIG means that you are already like kind of like aware of things that are happening and you are trying to be a part of that scholarly conversation in a particular area, such as our area of qualitative research. So Jessica, will you share a little bit about how folks might join us in the QR SIG? 

Jessica Van Cleave  16:29  
Absolutely, yeah. So to become a member of the QR SIG, and obviously, we hope all of our listeners are either existing members or will soon join us. When you get your Ara member membership or renew, you have the opportunity to select divisions and sigs that you want to be a part of. So if you go to that very, very, very long listing of SIGs and scroll down to Q and select qualitative research special interest group, you're a member. So you add that at the time of your initial membership or at the time of your renewal. And you can actually go back and add memberships to divisions and SIGs. If later on you decide that this is really a community of scholars that you want to be a part of, you don't have to wait until the next year you can join the QR SIG or any SIG at any time. For us and the QR SIG. We have an active listserv. So one of the member, one of the benefits of becoming a member is that you will receive emails periodic periodically that are specific to our membership. Those kinds of emails to the listserv include opportunities for connecting with other members. They include mentorship opportunities, publication opportunities, workshop, workshops, ideas, or invitations to submit to our newsletter and other kinds of things, calls for special issues related to qualitative research. We often have job opportunities, and interesting ways to connect and really become part of our community to join le

In this episode, Amy Stich interviews Kathy Roulston on interviewing in qualitative research. This conversation is great for both beginners and advanced researchers. The following is a transcript of the conversation. 

Amy Stich  0:11  
Hello, everyone. Welcome to qualitative conversations Podcast Series hosted by the qualitative research special interest group of the American Educational Research Association. I'm Amy Stich and associate professor at the McBee institute of higher education at the University of Georgia and affiliated faculty with the qualitative research program here at UGA as well. I also currently serve as the CO-editor of the six newsletter with one of our students here at the Institute Erin Leach as a guest host today I'll be interviewing Dr. Kathy Roulston on interviewing. Dr. Roulston is a professor in the qualitative research program at the University of Georgia in Athens, Georgia. Her research interests include qualitative research methods, specifically qualitative interviewing and analysis of talk in interaction. Her most recent books include interviewing a guide to theory and practice. That's published with sage just coming out in 2022. And Exploring the Archives A Beginner's Guide for Qualitative Researchers co authored with Kathleen de Morais, and published by Myers education press. Outside work Kathy enjoys working with fiber and textiles, and exploring the creative pleasure of spinning hand dyeing and weaving. Dr. Roulston thanks so much for joining us to discuss a topic that all of our qualitative listeners will very likely know at least a little something about an interviewing may even be something that some of our more experienced listeners may at times take for granted as an all too familiar tool for data collection, rather than a method that provokes very meaningful, often critical methodological questions that I know you're going to talk about today. So why don't we just start by you telling us a little bit about your scholarly interests and interviewing and how you got started?

Kathy Roulston  1:57  
Thank you, Amy, for that lovely introduction. So I first became interested in the methodological aspects of interviewing when I was doing my doctoral studies at the University of Queensland in the 1990s. I had conducted quite a few qualitative interviews prior to that as part of my master's degree in the early 90s. But when I did those interviews, I really saw them as a transparent means for gaining information about the world. So when I was doing my doctoral studies, I was learning about ethno methodological approaches to analysis from Dr. Carolyn Baker. And I took a very puzzling excerpt from an interview that I had conducted in my earlier study, and I reanalyzed it. And then this analysis helped me to get a better understanding of the performance of work that goes into the construction of interview data, in the ways that interviewers and interviewees produce interview data together, and then also how, as a researcher, it's possible to cut and categorize the interview transcripts in a way that can generate findings that can actually distort the ways in which the talk was produced. So I think there's quite a lot of writing about that now. But Dorothy Smith wrote an article back in the early 70s, called theorizing as etiology. And I used that to think about how coding based approaches to data analysis can hide how researchers contribute to the generation of interview accounts. And, of course, I've done methodological work on research interviews since that time, and I still am very intrigued by how research interviews get done.

Amy Stich  3:54  
It's so interesting. And that's a really lovely transition into some of those deeper methodological or substantive questions surrounding interviewing. Can you talk to us about some of the recent developments in interviewing?

Kathy Roulston  4:08  
Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Amy. So, over the last couple of years, I've been trying to keep up with new developments in interviewing. And I have to say there's an incredible range of innovations that qualitative researchers can use to inform their work. If you look at the methodological literature, interviewing history of any interviewing historically, you'll find that some of the strategies that are now being frequently used by researchers are not actually new. But I think what really surprised me when I started to look at the methodology, methodological literature is that in the last 10 years, there's just been an enormous amount of publishing in this area. So I kind of think about this in several different ways. So there's methodological work that is looks at particular approaches to conducting interviews, there's writing that talks about working with particular populations. And then there's work in which scholars are using new theories, to re theorize what it means to do into an interview and what interview data are. And then researchers are also taking out all of the new modalities that we use in everyday life to conduct interviews that differ from, I guess, early ideas of a research interview as a formal place based and in person interview. If you'd like I could talk a little bit in more detail about those four different strands. 

Amy Stich  5:44  
That would be great. If you don't mind. Yes, please. 

Kathy Roulston  5:47  
Sure. Well, in terms of how researchers approach interviewing, I think you'll see a lot more writing on how researchers who use interviews can account for sensory awareness. Now, the most familiar approach would be the use of visual methods. But people are also using sound, smell, taste, touch, and so forth. And then there's also a range of writing that examines materiality as it emerges in interviews. People bring objects to interviews that are used as prompts to talk about research topics. Sometimes the researchers bring those sometimes the participants bring those. And then researchers have looked at how technologies such as recording devices show up within interview talk, how people orient to those and what that means in an interview. And then, of course, we're quite familiar, I think now with the use of images in work, whether that's moving images, use of videos that people orient to, or still images, and then sometimes the researchers can bring those images to the interview, or they might engage participants in generating or bringing their own images. Now, there's also writing on various forms of graphic elicitation. Researchers can ask participants to draw diagrams or timelines, and then they talk about those within the interviews. And you'll see work where researchers attending to place in space in interviews. And then they might do this through go-alongs, in which interviews go along with their participants in cars or public transport. And then, of course, in walking interviews. Now, as I mentioned earlier, ethnographers have used these kinds of interviews for very long time, things like walking interviews, but I think what is different now is researchers do not necessarily find their work as ethnography. And then you'll see researchers using new technologies, such as global positioning systems, in conjunction with those mobile methods, and also creating maps in relation to walking interviews and mobile methods. And that they you'll see these in articles. Now, as a second strand of writing, you'll see a lot more attention now to culturally relevant approaches to research. And obviously, that's probably long overdue. Researchers will find lots of guidance about how to work with specific populations. And I'll just mention a couple here. So how to interview children around play based approaches. So you can see work where researchers using toys or puppets, you'll see research interviews used in inclusive ways with people with disabilities, and the various solicitation advice, or elicitation devices people use. There's work on use of American Sign Language with the deaf community. And then of course, there's much work on how to work with people from other cultures. And I think some of this work does use participatory approaches, where the participants participants themselves are key stakeholders in the development of the research topics, they might serve as co researchers or even peer interviewers. So the peer, the participants are co participants with the researchers and they might act as interviewers with other people. And then, of course, because researchers are increasingly conducting research in countries other than where they might present their work, you'll see a lot of research that's methodological to do with interviews on translation, interpretation, and what that means for issues of data analysis, the ethics and representation. And then, of course, there's more writing on how to conduct interviews with elite populations or how to recruit those for interviews and so forth. But I think if you look at the methodological literature that's been published probably over the last 75 years, I think probably almost any population can emerge a special in some way. So if what ever group you are choosing to conduct interviews with, it's just well worth looking at what methodological literature you might locate that can support your work. And I encourage listeners to think about that. And now moving on to theorizations of interviewing, there's a good deal of writing that draws on concepts from post structural and new materialist writing, and it reconceptualize as what interviews are and how we might think about them, and some of this critical of interview research as well. Although there's loads of critiques you could find that have gone on for decades about interviewing. So researchers have used concepts from Deleuze and Guattari book 1000 plateaus, such as the assemblage the fall the rhizome to rethink interviews and interview data. And then you also see ideas such as diffraction and interaction from scholars such as Karen Berard and cartographies, from Rosie Bradotti, applied to thinking about interviews. And then I guess, just to finish off, talking about some of the strands of literature on qualitative interviewing, there's a host of work which looks at the modalities in which interviews are conducted. And of course, because we've all been living through the COVID pandemic that started in 2020, I think probably all of us have turned to online interviews as a way to continue our research during the pandemic. But I think we also need to recognize that researchers have always made use of new technologies to conduct interviews. So when recording devices first became popular in the 1930s, audio cassette recorders for those of us who were interviewing a couple of decades ago, and telephones, and mobile telephones. And then of course, moving into the 2000s, we have digital recording devices. And then, of course, what we're doing right now, which is an audio recorded interview over the internet. And I actually I've seen some researchers from folklore studies, use podcasting software to record internet interviews. So if you're not interested, there's actually some pretty cool tools out there. But I think we'll see now use of synchronous online meeting rooms such as zoom, which we all know about, to interview people across physical distance. But you'll also see researchers making use of asynchronous tools. And of course, we've had email for a very long time. But these taxpayer base tools such as WhatsApp, and I used for both individual and group interviews. And then just to wrap up some of the methodological issues. I think what I've really noticed in the last year or two is the rapid replacement of manual transcription of interviews. So for example, you might be familiar with Express Scribe or ink scribe, which were tools to help us with manual transcription. But now these are really been taken over by voice to text software. Now, voice to text software has also been around for a few decades. But it's never been entirely taken up because it wasn't that accurate. But now that artificial intelligence has been applied to the voice to text software, the accuracy is probably over 90%. And so I think you'll see people using tools such as Otter.AI or [...]. But I think it's always advisable to double check any kind of transcription. So that whether you use a transcriber, whether you transcribe these manually, or you use a voice to text program, I think it's just good practice to listen to the audio recordings, check the transcriptions and just ensure that what you've put in your transcript is accurate.

Amy Stich  14:32  
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, despite having a vast array of these technological advancements that assist us throughout the research process. I don't know that anything will ever really replace the need for us to deeply engage with our data and meaningful sustained ways that of course result in more meaningful interpretation. You know, in other words, I don't know that technology were will ever necessarily replace the qualitative researcher, but that's probably a topic for another podcast. So now despite having all sorts of advancements in the field, can you talk about some of the persistent challenges that qualitative researchers face and learning to interview? 

Kathy Roulston  15:13  
So I think teaching qualitative research, interviewing for about 20 years now, and I've also done some research on that. And I've got a project going on right now to do with that. And I also recognize that some scholars argue that you don't need to teach interviewing. And that's because as interviewers, and speakers, we use our ordinary language skills to conduct interviews. And I agree that that's what we do. We use our ordinary language skills when we ask questions about our participants. But I think one of the challenges for novice researchers is not that they don't know how to ask questions and conduct interviews, we are surrounded by interviews every day, we listen to them all the time, we see them on television, and so forth. I think the challenge is learning to become a really good listener, and thinking about what to say next. And so when I look at transcripts, I find that novice interviewers are challenged to listen well. And that's because sometimes they're thinking about the next question to ask. And I know this, because I asked them to reflect and that's what they say in reflections that was really hard for me to listen, because I was I didn't know what I was going to say next. So what happens is a couple of different issues, things can happen. So the interviewer can fail to unpack what an interviewee has said, by not asking any follow up questions. So rather than asking a follow up question on what's just been said, they move directly to the next question, without regard to whether an interviewee has fully explained the topic. And what happens then if you just move to the next question on the interview guide is your interview ends up being really short? Right? So we know from narrative inquiry and narrative research that people very frequently give the abstracts of the story first. So they tell you the short story. And then as an interviewer, it's up to you to ask thoughtful follow up questions to get more detail about an interview is meaning making now. And a related problem for novice interviewers is when they do try to ask follow up questions, they can come out as long convoluted and MultiPad questions, they might ask five or six questions, because thinking on the spot of what to say next. So what's interesting, when I've looked at how people answer those kinds of questions, is they do a pretty good job of handling these enormously complicated questions. So I think, though, that sometimes interviewees interviewers rather, they don't need to do that much work. There's ways to ask their follow up questions, just one at a time. And then that actually, I think might help when it comes to data analysis. Because if an answer has been in response to a multi part question, the analyst has to go through a good deal of analysis to think through, in what ways their question has been answered. Right. So I think, another issue, and I think this, potentially is related to the fact that we all are very familiar with interviews as a genre. But sometimes I find that novice interviewers are really challenged to recognize the implications of their own actions as interviewers. And I think it's important for every one of us weather where we've done a lot of interviews or a few interviews, we just need to be really aware of what we say, and then what happens next as a result. So I think some new researchers come to qualitative researcher thinking that they can be neutral and not impact what gets said. But it's been well known for decades that it's not really possible to not impact what gets said. So even researchers who use standardized survey interviews, find it very difficult to avoid engaging with interviewees because interviewees ask questions of them as they go along. So I guess my point is, even if you follow In a script, it's just very difficult to follow that when it comes to actual real life interaction. So when qualitative researchers are asking questions in open ended or semi structured interviews, whatever they do is going to enact what gets said next. And that even includes whether you say nothing. So even if there's a silence, so for example, if you were to ask a question, you open a slot for the interviewee to say something. And if you pause long enough, the interviewee will do something. And the next turn actually might be asking a question as to what it is that you want to know. But yes, so whatever interviewers do does impact what goes on. And I think each of us needs to recognize whatever it is that we do, and how that impacts what gets done. And think about our own, I guess, natural language skills and how we speak to one another and listen to one another.

Amy Stich  21:13  
Right, excellent points. And again, a really nice transition into my next question about the interviewer or the person and some of the qualities that might make for a quote unquote, good interviewer. So Dr. Roulston, can you talk about what constitutes a good interviewer?

Kathy Roulston  21:31  
Sure. Thanks for that question, Amy. So I have talked to other researchers about this. And that was one of the questions I asked them. And then I've also looked at accounts from professional interviewers who have talked about that topic. And I think there's a good deal of agreement on what a good interviewer does. So firstly, they prepare well for interviews, interviews, they're good listeners, they treat the interviewee with respect. They understand that to conduct a good interview, you have to be flexible. So what what works in one situation is not necessarily going to work in another. And I've seen several places, good interviewing practices likened to the improvisatory qualities of jazz. So sometimes you just have to make stuff up. And then, my good friend and colleague, Judith Price Lee, she reminded me quite a few years ago now that you just need to be skeptical of advice, including the advice I've just given. Sometimes I think advice is appropriate, and sometimes it's not. And perhaps interviewers just need to attune themselves to the specific context in which they're working, and also the people they're talking to, to figure out what's going to be a good interview in this situation.

Amy Stich  23:04  
That's great. I love that advice. And think it's appropriate in this context. So to be a good interviewer, really to be good at anything, it would also seem one would benefit from a great deal of experience and learning from what we might deem to be failures in the field or what we might at the time call, you know, a quote, unquote, failed interview. Can you tell us about any of your own experiences with you know, quote-unquote, failed interviews, or any interviewing disasters that you've had? ...

Kathy Roulston  23:45  
So I think because I'm a methodologist, I tend not to write off interviews as failures. Because I think if something is goes really terribly wrong, and interview, then that gives that will give me something interesting to unpack now, unpacking that failure might actually be quite painful. But I'll share some of my disasters. And as I think about these, I think all of them were because of my own lack of preparation, which I guess is the for the first rule of good interview. Be prepared. So I have conducted a couple of interviews that I think they were great interviews. But when I went to download them or transcribe them, I didn't have a recording. So that is every researchers worst nightmare.

Amy Stich  24:46  
I can relate to that. I've had that nightmare.

Kathy Roulston  24:50  
 So the first happened when I did my master's degree so I was using one of those digital Walkman switch antiques now but it files and records. But in that case, I was able to reschedule the interview, I had a very kind participant who agreed to be interviewed for a second time. But I think what happened there was the spontaneity that occurred in the very first interview was lacking in a second. And of course, that's foreseeable. But more recently, this is probably maybe a little over 10 years ago, I think. I failed to generate a complete recording on a digital recorder. And what had happened, I'd been conducting back to back interviews all day, before an evaluation study. And the space on my digital recording device, it had a little desk in it filled up in half the interview, and I couldn't reschedule this, that there was no possibility. So what I did, as soon as I could, I wrote down as much information as I could for memory. And since I've read more on the history of interviewing, I think what's interesting about that is, this is how anthropologist used to record the interviews via hand, during the interview and all after. So there's one account by anthropologists who [...} Patternmaker. In 1966, she was looking back on her career. And she wrote about going back to her car after her interviews and writing as many notes of what the interviewees had told her as she could. And it so happens, because I'm interested in archival work, too. I've had a look at some other handwritten notebooks from a field worker who lived in Athens where I live. She conducted interviews as part of the Federal Writers Project. And she her handwritten notebooks. It's all in pencil. They're just incredibly detailed notes about interviews. And I have to think that before people had, I guess, ubiquitous access to audio recording devices, they probably had better strength of recall than perhaps we do, because we just typically rely on our audio recordings. But I guess back to your question around it. I think both of these disasters could have been avoided, if I did a backup recording device. That's what I do. I take them on an iPad or an iPhone or something and record it as well. I don't know when I have others to talk about it. I nobody want to know.

Amy Stich  27:51  
I think we will all love to know more.

Kathy Roulston  27:55  
Okay, so this is one of my embarrassments. So in another case, I, the interview, we selected the place where we were going to conduct an interview it interview and I had not met her prior to the interview. So we met for the first time. And we arranged to meet at a cafe in another county, and that I was not familiar with. So I showed up early. And I was just horrified to find that this cafe had closed. The person I was interviewing had obviously not been there for a while either. And so she was very surprised. So he we were in a strip mall in an County I wasn't familiar with trying to locate another place to conduct an interview. And I ended up recording this conversation in an open area in a grocery store, which had like a little eating area with tables and chairs. So as you can imagine, this was not a great setting, and it was not a great start to the interview. That's what I recall. I don't remember much about it. I do have a worst one.

Amy Stich  29:11  
Oh, yes. Thank you for your honesty.

Kathy Roulston  29:16  
Yes. So. Yes. So this one I, I guess was at a very busy point in the semester. And I had arranged to interview someone. And when I went to conduct the interview, I went to their office, which was on my campus, and they came to my office and our offices and two different buildings a couple of miles apart. So obviously that interview didn't get done. And that was incredibly embarrassing, because it was clear that I hadn't done enough preparation to double check the location that we're both on the same page. And I think that just goes to show that no matter how busy you are, you just need to really be systematic about checking the equipment, and then ensuring that both you and the interviewee know where you're going, that there is a place a space to meet, where you plan to meet, and just double check everything along the way. So I tried to do that now. But I've made errors along the way.

Amy Stich  30:25  
That's great. And as much as we may learn from our failures, it is of course wise to try to avoid them. Yeah, so. So Dr. Roulston, who were some of your favorite interviewers? Sure,

Kathy Roulston  30:38  
I would have to say that Terry Gross, who broadcast the program, fresh air, which is on National Public Radio in the United States, she's one of my favorite interviewers. If you listen to her, she, these interviews just seem to be so smooth. About I think she has published a couple of books on interviewing and in her introduction to those books, you'll learn more about how she does those. And you just need to be aware that she has a team that produces those interviews, and they're also not aired live, right. So the editorial team smoothes out the talk. And they also might even resequenced, the questions and answers. And then just as another note, and I think this is encouraging to all of us. She also has had some pretty challenging interview, and you can look around for those. So I guess as someone who has, she's literally conducted 1000s of interviews. It's just useful to know that she runs into problem interviews as well. And then I think what we can all learn from this is that to do a good interview entails collaboration on the part of both interviewer and interviewee. So interviewees can be uncooperative, for all kinds of reasons. And sometimes we might never really know what those reasons are. But I think in other cases, we might also consider why an interviewer might be reluctant to talk to us. And then, as a good researcher looking into the reasons that might be occurring, and why it is that people might might not be answering our questions. So that's something to think about. Right, right. And then we asked me about favorite interviews. I'm not sure he's one of my favorite interviews. I think I really like looking at his interviews to see what he does. So that's Sacha Baron Cohen. And of course, he's not a broadcast interviewer. And he's not a research interviewer. And he's also not necessarily generating information as researchers do. Because as, like, as a comedian and a satirist, he's doing something else altogether. So you probably have seen him in his various television shows and films. So he disguises himself to interview both ordinary and very famous people, is pranked quite a few policy, very famous politicians so far to say, I, I've seen Maureen Dowd of The New York Times has interviewed him and about what his work and what he's trying to do there. And he describes his aim as to expose hatred, bigotry and racism through those kinds of interviews. So I think what I enjoy about listening to comedians and satirists when they interview is how they upset out expectations of what an interview is, and also, quite often what's appropriate to ask. And then, of course, interviewees wide awake to what's going off on quite often. And so sometimes they'll just walk out of the interview, and just refused to participate. Rather than to avoid these embarrassing interactions, which some of these interviews are designed to elicit, and I'm not suggesting that researchers design interviews to do this kind of work. But I think what I find interesting about them, is it how it really helps us to think about the purpose of asking questions of one another.

Amy Stich  34:39  
Absolutely. Yeah, those are such interesting choices. Have you heard Terry Gross interview Sacha Baron Cohen on fresh air?

Kathy Roulston  34:48  
No I haven't. 

Amy Stich  34:49  
 You know that's a two for one for you. 

Kathy Roulston  34:52  
Have they actually interviewed him? 

Amy Stich  34:56  
Yes, she has. She has You guys, I've learned, I believe, just early this year. Yeah. So you might want to check that out.

Kathy Roulston  35:04  
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Amy Stich  35:08  
Absolutely. So before we end today, I think many of our listeners will also appreciate hearing some of your top tips for conducting interviews. So what advice would you give to those just starting out?

Kathy Roulston  35:18  
Well, I may repeat myself, so forgive me Sure, of course. But I think first, I think it's really helpful to for every one of us as interviewers to recognize and natural language skills. So if any listeners are those people who like to sit and listen, and he might be very introverted, it is actually going to be easier for you to listen to participants, and you are very unlikely to interrupt them, because you'll be listening. And because that's the natural way you engage in interaction. Now, if you like talking, and you like telling stories, it might actually be very challenging for you not to contribute to the talk. Now, I don't want to be understood as saying that there's not a time and place for telling your own stories as part of an interview. And if anyone wants to take conversation approach to interviewing, that's probably going to happen. But I think what I am trying to say here is that it's useful to recognize that what your talk does for the generation of interview data. And so for example, if you tell your stories, in response to what your participant is saying, these are actually there's a name for these kinds of stories, have the sociologists have called them second stories, which match a story that's just been told. Then when it comes to analyze your data, you as a researcher really have to be fair to your participant by counting for your own talk in the analysis and interpretation. And thinking about what your part in the generation of that talk was. So that's one, one thing, I think, is helpful for all of us. And then of course, this goes without saying, we just need to be listened to our participants respectfully. And I clearly if we're using interviews, we're seeking to learn from others. And it's our responsibility to just really be respectful. Now, I think that doesn't necessarily mean we need to agree with them. So sometimes participants say very disagreeable things that we might really disagree with. Sure. But I think the in that case, then we need to think about how we can be fair in how we represent them, when we write up our findings. And, of course, representing our findings is an probably a topic of another podcast, too. But there's actually methodological work out there now, which, like really thinks about what happens when we interview people with whom we might disagree. I guess the other thing to think about in interview is to really recognize that interviewing is performative. So people want to represent themselves to one another particular ways, for specific purposes. So even though research interviews are information generation, typically we are wanting information about some research topic. It's you can also ask what kinds of actions are being done in an interview. So for example, your interview is justifying or excusing the actions or they could be complaining about something or praising something or complimenting something. So that's just another order of data analysis, which the sociologists, Holstein and Gabrielle have written about, for quite some time, since the mid 1990s. They talk about analyzing both how interviews get done in as well as what gets said in those interviews. And then I think maybe, just to finish up here, there's more methodological work, which really calls on researchers to examine the search methods and how they might consider the participants needs very deeply in how they examine their topics. I've got one good example here, from Castro Dale. This is an article published in 2018 in qualitative inquiry, so he intended to use mobile methods in a study but the When he talked to his participants, they preferred formal sit down interviews. So even though we might have preferences for how we're going to conduct interviews, I think more and more researchers are writing and talking about how they design their interviews, research with their participants preferences in mind. So I guess a good interview can look really easy. But I, we can't ever really predict what's going to happen past the second term. So I advise all of us to be open to be flexible, and relaxing. Just enjoy yourself

Amy Stich  40:39  
full again. That's wonderful advice. Thank you again for sharing your expertise with us today. And thank you, listeners for joining us for this edition of qualitative conversation.

Kathy Roulston  40:51  
Thank you very much me. I've really enjoyed talking to you. 

Amy Stich  40:55  
Thanks so much, Kathy.

In this episode Stephanie Shelton talks with Kiara Summerville, Erica Campbell, Krystal Flantroy, and Ashley Prowell about their experiences collaborating and co-authoring an article on Black Feminist thought in the field of Qualitative Inquiry. The episode raises important questions about representation, experience, and process in the doing and teaching of qualitative research. A transcript of the conversation follows. 

Stephanie Shelton  00:10

Right. Hello everyone and welcome to qualitative conversations Podcast Series hosted by the qualitative research special interest group, the American Educational Research Association. I'm Stephanie Shelton, a guest host for this episode on collaboration and co-authorship. And I'm excited to be joined today by my brilliant co-authors of a wonderful article. Krystal Flantroy, Kiara Summerville, Erica Campbell and Ashley Nicole Prowell. And so Kiara, if we could just introduce yourselves maybe an author order. So Kiara, then Erica, then Krystal, then Ashley, and then we'll get started.

Kiara Summerville  00:47

Hi, everyone. I'm Kiara Summervile. Dr. Kiara Somerville, a recent graduate of the higher education administration program at the University of Alabama. I currently work in the Division of Student Life at the University of Alabama. And so certainly, a scholar practitioner in every sense of the word, and I am excited to be here with you all. 

Erica Campbell  01:08

Hello, everybody. My name is Erica Campbell, and I am a PhD candidate in the higher education administration program at the University of Alabama. And I'm excited because I will be graduating in May, and I will be defending my dissertation this January. So I'm excited to be on the job market looking for faculty positions. And I here I am a scholar practitioners affairs professional, but I want to take that to the faculty route. So I'm excited to be here with you all today.

Krystal Flantroy  01:38

My name is Krystal Flantroy and I'm currently a PhD candidate in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that I graduate in July. I too, am a scholar practitioner who has found her way back to a classroom teaching position. And so I'm back to teaching high school science, which is something I love and love to do. But we'll see how it all works out in the end.

Ashley Prowell  02:02

My name is Ashley Prowell, or Dr. Ashley Prowell. And I am also a recent graduate of the social work department, PhD program. I'm also on the job market hoping to enter the professoriate and continue to do research and teaching. So yeah, I'm glad we didn't have to, like run down our research topic, because I'm so tired of writing about it, talking about it with everybody. So 

Stephanie Shelton  02:37

We're here today to talk about your article that was published in the qualitative research journal. And it is titled, Finding ourselves as Black Women in Euro-centric theory: Collaborative biography on learning qualitative inquiry. And so I wanted to start by asking if you could share how this project got started, what, what initiated the ideas that ultimately led to this article.

Krystal Flantroy  02:59

And as it turns out, this project got started in, it feels like a group chat, right? We were, we would have class and then we would all leave class and talk in the parking lot before we all went to our cars, that led to a group chat of where we got to talk about things that we didn't understand things that we just didn't relate to things that were confusing in the readings of the theory that we were reading in qual three, and it kind of flourished from there.

Kiara Summerville  03:28

Right? We, as Krystal mentioned, were, you know, talking about frustrations and confusion that went along with it, this qualitative course that we were taking. And, and we thought about it one day, I think we were actually in the classroom after class one day, and had this thought like, well, maybe we should write about this, right? We all have a lot of thoughts about this. And, um, you know about our experience in that classroom and understanding the material and working together to make the make the material make sense to each other, we leaned on each other heavily for that. So we told ourselves, Well, how about we just write about this? Right. And I know, we'll probably get to this in a little bit, but we thought, you know, Dr. Shelton, would be a wonderful person to talk to about these thoughts, and to see if we can get something going.

Stephanie Shelton  04:19

So that's a perfect transition. Um, so could you talk through how you started the process of co authoring this paper? What did that process look like? 

Ashley Prowell  04:27

I mean, I want to say, I want to say it was just, you know, just it just happened pretty naturally. I mean, like Krystaltal said, it started out in a group chat. And we all had these same, you know, same thoughts about what was going on in the classroom. So, I mean, I don't know if you're talking about like the ordering of authorship and how that happened. But I think just in terms of us all, you know, being engaged in this topic and wanting to instead of just kind of, I guess, complaining about it or griping about it wanting to be productive and, and turn it into something creative and productive for academia. And I feel like, since we've written this paper, like, if you just scroll through academic Twitter, you'll see like, you know, a lot of people are talking about this similar ideas these days, and kind of this incorporation of black thought, or black, you know, ideas into, you know, our readings in the classroom and, and just being more inclusive overall and responsive to other cultures. So I feel like we were definitely at the forefront. I feel like we were at the forefront, maybe we weren't, but, but it definitely feels good. That, you know, we're seeing more people talk about this issue in doctoral programs, and just overall in higher education,

Erica Campbell  06:01

Right. And I will also add that one of the things that we did, too, because we knew that we had material to write about or to share our personal narratives, and what that looked like in the classroom, also believe that we went to you, Dr. Shelton, to be honest. And we said, you know, we have this idea, just to kind of really just dive in about what our, you know, black feminist thought is, and then also to really think about how we use that with qualitative research and qualitative, philosophical, philosophical understandings. And so you gave us the idea, in terms of the methodology to really just think about how we could use that as an opportunity to kind of collaborate when it comes to our narrative. And I know we'll get to that in a little bit a little bit later, I'm sure. But that's where kind of the idea got the wheels to kind of keep moving, that you know, what this this is qualitative research, what are narratives are, what our experiences are in that classroom, and you kind of gave us a wheel with the methodology with that.

Ashley Prowell  07:07

And I guess, you know, earlier on, I think we also had the conversation of, you know, or at least I know, I brought this up and shared it with the group, just this idea of choosing a white professor to to, to being engaged with our scholarship or this manuscript that we were writing. And I know, while Dr. Shelton tends to be very open, and, or is very open, and often probably even can relate to a lot of the issues that we we talked about in our paper, are some of them. I think we chose Dr. Shelton, because because of that, that openness. But I do think, you know, we did think about like, what would the paper: How would things look different if we engage with a, an African American or a black? Professor? And I do think there are implications for that? I think it could, would she have been involved in our group chat? Or, you know, how would that have changed things in terms of our findings, and how we engage with the content throughout the course semester? So I think that is something that, you know, we should, I don't know, if you want to talk, share your own thoughts about that. But I know that's something that we brought up earlier on.

Krystal Flantroy  08:27

But I also think that we were, we were a bit treading lightly as we began, because we also were still in a class with a professor, whose course we were really critiquing for something that we thought was missing, that was something essential. And so it felt like, Are we really gonna write about this? Because the truly enough mean, we've all been taught by her are sitting in her course. And it's like, how do we know Levy, this, this heavy critique of the course that we've been in without feeling weird about it? So that was another thing. 

Stephanie Shelton  09:03

So you've brought up some of these? The next question is really looking at like some of the challenges. And and so I think that these are definitely some that are really important. And I'm glad that, Ashley, you initiated some of these concerns, because very important, and thinking about like collaboratively writing, and then trying to go through this publication process, because I feel like a lot of times for graduate students publication seems like more of like an abstract concept. That's sort of reality. And so what were some of the challenges of the collaborative writing and the publication process when you're working through this article?

Kiara Summerville  09:34

I don't know that the when we actually started writing together and in sharing our mirrors with each other, that wasn't necessarily tough for me. I think on the front end, we had to learn the methodology. And that was something that we had to kind of sit with because I think even with the methodology and you know, the philosophers and we were attributing citing in our methodology for themselves, white men, right. And so we talked about how, you know, we were critiquing this use of using white philosophers in these courses. But we are in fact using them for this type of work, we talked about how we are turning it on its head, right? To make it work for us, which is really the the nature of the whole paper, the theme of the whole paper making, making, what we were learning in that class, make it make sense to us. So I think learning the methodology at first was something that we had to had to understand, but the actual writing of the narrative seems to come quite naturally. For me, um, ladies, I'm not sure how you all felt about that. 

Erica Campbell  10:43

And I will say that it actually became natural for me, because we had been in that class and really was in that space of really sitting with our thoughts about those white philosophers. In that course, I really felt like, you know, this was my opportunity to really get that off my chest in a writing format, right. But then also, because we were doing it in a collaborative matter, I think what really helped me to was that, okay, I'm not the only person that's talking about this, right. So, you know, often as a black woman, you know, you we feel good in numbers, we feel good having that sisterhood support. And I think knowing that we were collaborating, and right, but also writing our own narratives, at the same time made me feel empowered to just say what I needed to say, and just express myself, because I knew there were other women who would be doing the same thing. And so that really empowered me, it felt very natural for myself.

Ashley Prowell  11:39

And I think we brought this up in the paper, too, is just this idea of like, earlier on, like, hold on, are we missing something like just trying to think back through before, you know, before you, you know, you write about something or talk about something you want to make sure you have, I think that naturally, like have the facts. Right. So, so just thinking through the course, and, and I guess, also in a way of not to be offensive towards towards the qualitative program that we were taking these courses in, and just just really thinking about, you know, you know, if we, if if there was something that we didn't grasp, or something that we miss throughout the course. And I think like Erica was saying, like other people are, you know, once we realized, collectively that we have these shared thoughts and that other people are also talking about this, I think that helped us feel better about moving forward with with writing about it.

Krystal Flantroy  12:41

I just wanted to add, when we went to our first like, we we put up conference paper, like, I can't remember which one it is. And, ICQI, right? And so we go and we do our presentation, and we're sitting in this room of people, and like people were enlightened and move by it, and it was like, wait, y'all, I think we got we got some, and like, we left there. We we knew we felt better, like people came up and talk to us after our presentation. I was like, oh, okay, this is it. Alright. So it that I think that part of it, like putting in conference presentations, I think ICQI and AERA, um, you know, made a world of difference, because what it said was, is that scholars in Rome want to hear what we had to say about this particular topic, which may moving the work forward a little bit easier. You weren't as the trepidation wasn't there anymore. It was like, Okay, this is something we can talk about that we need to talk about. 

Stephanie Shelton  13:48

So Erica,and Krystal kind of alluded to this, but I wanted to ask if you had anything else you wanted to add? What were some of the high points are the advantages of collaboratively writing, collaborative collaboratively writing, and a collaborative publishing process? 

Ashley Prowell  14:03

I think, I guess just piggybacking off of what we just talked about was just this idea of, okay. This is something, you know, kind of new for us and that we're, you know, this is our first time writing about something like this, but being able to kind of figure it out through our collaborative narrative and responding to each other and going back and forth. With that process. I think that was something interesting and just kind of kind of figuring it out as we went, you know, I thought that was cool.

Krystal Flantroy  14:39

I think here said this earlier, and it there's power in numbers, right? And having people to work with and having people to bounce ideas off of and having people that have maybe more experiences or publishing because we were all in different parts of our journey at that point, and so We are, you know, it was it made the experience a lot easier. But it also made it tougher, right? Because you're working with four different people with four or five, five different people with five different schedules,

Stephanie Shelton  15:12

I think it might be worth you you talking a little bit going back a little bit to the to some of the challenges. If I recall correctly, some of the ways that you all wrote the paper was you initially, you divvied up sections you did the you did the narratives collaboratively throughout, but then you divvied up other sections, but then there had to be a process where the paper became unified. And so I don't know if you want to talk about that or not. But I think that that was definitely a very interesting part of the process, that it can be used for other people to hear about.

Erica Campbell  15:44

So that's a good point. Um, one thing that we did, so after, like, Kiara, I mentioned earlier, we had to really learn, and, and really understand this methodology, right. So that's always key and important before you, you know, put yourself out there to try and do it. And of course, you know, you either learn through the process, and of course, you learn after the process. I mean, that's part of qualitative research, and what we are, you know, tasked to do, and good researchers. But one thing that we did first is we decided that we would divvy up our narratives. And so one person will write their own personal narratives, each person wrote a personal narrative, right? But then we decided that we would go back, and then respond to each person's narratives. And so in each person's there, there's a might be a thought that Ashley said or thought they crossed or keyed, or said, and then I might interrupt with my communication or a thought of like, yes, like we you said, you were in class. And maybe you didn't understand this, this philosopher, I will respond by saying something like, You know what, I didn't understand that either, right. And so it kind of created not just only our own narratives to be able to get that narrative on paper, but it allowed us to, for lack of a better word, to interrupt each other, and kind of have a conversation back and forth through our written narrative. And so we did that using a Google Drive. And from there is where we use that just to move forward in our analysis. 

Kiara Summerville  17:22

And I think when it came time to piece the paper together, it's not really a challenge, it wasn't a challenge, I don't think we leaned on each other's strengths, to kind of understand, you know, kind of what sections of the paper so for instance, I had had some previous experience with the conceptual framework, right? So it was, you know, easy for me to feel like I could step up and say, Okay, y'all, I feel like I can write this conceptual framework. I, you know, Eric knows, I joke about this a lot, I feel like I do really well with time things with a bow and concluding. So I'm happy to conclude as well. And then, you know, we talked about who was focused on the literature review, and who would focus on, um, you know, our data and creating themes from our narratives. And so that part, you know, it's really nice to lean on each other's strengths. And that way to piece the paper together.

Ashley Prowell  18:15

Yeah. And I think we were all at different points in our, you know, of course, in our PhD journey, so, you know, especially when it came to authorship, you know, I knew for myself, at least, that I was kind of in the bulk of my dissertation, and then I wouldn't have a ton of time to commit to the final pieces of the manuscripts. So, of course, second to last author. And I think other people may have, you know, chosen their authorship similarly, so, yeah. But, you know, in terms of we tried to be fair, there were there were multiple opportunities that came out of that paper, like, we were saying, conference presentations. So, we, I think we each had opportunities to kind of lead those projects along the way while we were at different points. So for ICQI I was at a easier time in my, in my PhD journey. So I I did get a chance to lead that a little bit. In terms of like, submitting the proposal for ICQI and everything 

Stephanie Shelton  19:28

And I think Krystal did a she did it. You did AERA, you led that proposal. 

Krystal Flantroy  19:34

Yea but it was canceled, thanks to COVID. So there was a lot of work for I won't say for no reason. But yeah, for no reason. 

Erica Campbell  19:46

And I think that speaks to us feeling like you know, we can take this on the road and we can really make this a worthwhile project. So you know, even though AERA was cancelled because the COVID and it was 2020 when we got except it is still helped us to make us feel like you know what this project is worth while. And this is something that we should definitely even though, you know, hell was breaking loose in the country in the world, we feel felt like this. This research still needed to go forward. And I'm glad that we continue to push towards wrapping this paper.

Stephanie Shelton  20:24

So many grad students are likely to listen to this podcast. And so in channeling a graduate student perspective, which for some of you is current for others of you, it's in the rearview mirror, but not too long ago. And channeling a graduate student perspective, what was the publishing process like? And what do you wish that you known beforehand that you know, now,

Krystal Flantroy  20:42

I wish I had known that those jokes about reviewer number two, are actually really serious, not just imagined. There's such extremes on what reviewers want out of your paper. And oh, I do remember what I wanted to say the unifying part of the paper, Dr. Shelton really helped with our language, that was whatever I want to say, and helping it all pull together. So it was concise and consistent, even though we all have different words and different styles of writing. But yes, reviewer number two, that is exactly the truth. I, when I looked at our reviews for the paper, it was like one person was like, Okay, here's these few things and somebody else, like, I think you should look at this, this and this from these people, I think you guys missed it. 

Kiara Summerville  21:28

And then not even being able to find some of their suggestions. Like it was really hard because maybe our institution didn't have access to it, and then having to figure out if we were going to include it or not. And if we didn't include it, how to word that in the letter back to the editors, or their reviewers. How to say, you know, thank you, but nothing.

Stephanie Shelton  21:53

Yeah, my advice for that is just in overall publishing experiences, just like trying to respond to everything and making it seem like, you know, I'm, I'm so grateful for this feedback. And but or however, you know, that's the way to approach it. But you know, trying your best to still address each and every comment as much as possible. But if it's not in line with what you're you're trying to do, or your goal or aims for the for your work, then, you know, saying that, and being honest, honest about that,

Erica Campbell  22:32

honestly, I think we were really blessed. We had Dr. Shelton, the great Dr. Shelton, on our team. And so because you were on our team, as we thank you all the time, it really helped us walk through that publication process. So I've been a part of some publications in my past experience prior to this research, but really have an understanding of how everything breaks down how you respond to the journal, how you respond to each of their, you know, suggested edits, that was something that was really eye opening for me, because now because we did that, and because she walked us through that process, so that we can understand that I feel more confident. Just just putting in other other manuscripts that other journals, you know, it just made me really see the process from start to finish, and not just kind of a small portion of the process. And so I'm thankful for that. But also it really, if we had to tell graduate students what to do, find a coach, find a mentor, find someone who will help you walk through that process, because that kind of takes a lot of strain and stress off of the manuscript writing and journal process. And so that was very helpful for me, and I'm sure my colleagues will say the same.

Ashley Prowell  23:46

And I would say to just being on the job market, right now, you I'm starting to realize what a valuable experience this was. And not that either of us were, you know, being aggressive about you know, collaboration, we have to collaborate, I think this for us, thankfully, it happened very, very naturally. And I think that is something to cherish, whether it happens in your PhD Career or later on in your, your, your later on in your career. But you'll find, I think when applying to jobs and kind of thinking through your entire journey, that experiences like this are really are really useful because you will be required to collaborate interdisciplinary. And for me, I'm in the Social Work program, and I think most of my these co authors are these gals here are in education. So I think that's that's a that was a great experience. And I think it's something that just shared Being honest and sharing your thoughts about course experience or things that are going on in your own research, or your own research area of interest, sharing that with others, Dr. Shelton, sharing that with others, and just kind of seeing where that where that takes you rather than, you know, making it a point to, you know, collaborate just just kind of surrounding yourself with people who have shared interests. And I think it'll just happen naturally. 

Stephanie Shelton  25:31

I do want to accentuate because of some of the things that you all have said, I want to make it really clear to anyone who would listen to the podcast that you all did the work, you all respond as the reviewers, you will do the revisions. Because I don't want to give anyone the misguided impression that like I was in charge of anything, or I took over y'all did the work. And so I want to make sure that relative to Eric has note about, you know, find yourself a mentor, I think that's a really great piece of advice for any graduate students, or even early career faculty, but making sure that you find someone who helps you to understand how to do it and helps a highlight you not someone who jumps in and takes credit for what it is that you're planning on doing. Because that, that's that's not what happened. These women, these brilliant scholars did, did this work. This article is theirs,

Kiara Summerville  26:24

Dr. Shelton, I'm thinking about how you helped us kind of understand the landscape of qualitative research journals and where this might fit best, and timelines. And, you know, I'm thinking along those lines when Erica said, you know, coach and mentor to help us understand, you know, the scope of what we were working with in terms of submitting to a journal, and what that looked like, and keeping us on a timeline or schedule or, you know, if we fell off encouraging us to hop back on that timeline, that was very, very helpful for us.

Krystal Flantroy  27:05

I do want to speak to the publishing process, and here brought this up, I think that there are a multitude of journals in which you can publish and being able to select a journal that is interested in your topic, and will find your topic relevant, I think that will be a struggle for every graduate student, like cuz, you know, you're supposed to try to shoot for like, top tier journals. But as a graduate student, you're like, Okay, I'm not really sure which journals I should shoot for. And having Dr. Shelton help us with that. And a realistic timeline, right? Like, we wanted to turn our paper around in, you know, six months to a year, not 18 months, depending on the journal as we go back and forth, and back and forth. And so that was something I didn't realize, in the process of writing and publishing, that, like where you publish can determine how often your published, you know, the turn around the editors, what they like, if you're you fit like all of those things matter. And so like the mentoring on that was amazing.

Stephanie Shelton  28:11

Well, because you're all gifted and talented. You've answered multiple questions that I haven't asked yet. So thanks for being amazing in that way. If you could, if you could rewind time, and do this entire process all over again, what might you do differently?

Erica Campbell  28:26

You know, I'm one of those people that's like, I have no regrets. And the reason why I have no regrets right now, when it comes to this project is because was my first time doing a collaborative article with majority of my peers and colleagues, and of course, was your assistant, Dr. Shelton, but then also, just because I feel like you don't learn until you just do something. Right. So that's kind of how you learn the good things. Like we were saying, you know, the good things of how to pick a journal article How to really dive into a methodology that you have never done before, how to, you know, just just collaborate and really share the work and and just do that effectively and share your part. I think those are areas that I would have not learned if we didn't do this project overall. So I will say, No regrets. I don't have anything that I would change. I know, we were in the midst of COVID. If we can change the world, we would change COVID happening, because that did affect us finishing our paper, like we wanted to finish it earlier. But because of COVID I think that kind of just shook up our timeline a lot. And so I think that was something that I will say, if we had control over the world, I will make a change to other than that. I really enjoyed this process afterwards. 

Kiara Summerville  29:47

Yeah, I think the pause that we all took when you ask that question, Dr. Shelton is a testament to you know, I don't know that I have any regrets either. You know about the process. And I learned a lot. And even, you know, I wrote another book chapter after this one and Erica's a co author on that book chapter with me. And we use the same method, right. And so to be able to go to our co authors on on this call and just say, you know, we've done this, this is what we learned from this paper that we did, you know, prior to this was helpful, very, very helpful.

Ashley Prowell  30:26

Yeah, I think it's, I think going into it just knowing like, it's not, it's not going to always be perfect. And, and I know, whether you're working with a group or by yourself and publishing, you know, putting your work out there, it's, it's pretty scary. And as soon as, you know, you get that email saying that your, your paper has been published, you know, for me, I get this, like, deep sense of fear, like, oh, my gosh, people are gonna be reading now. Like, they're gonna think I'm so stupid, but just know, going into it. And knowing that, you can always return to the same issue and improve upon it and build upon it and continue doing the work in that way. I think that's something that graduate students should definitely keep in mind. And it's qualitative research, you know, you it's so flexible, you can, you can do that. So

Krystal Flantroy  31:19

I think, um, with Erica, if I were to rewind time, I would probably just change the circumstances under which like our publication kind of happen, but you can't like change worldwide. I mean, she can't really predict a pandemic. But I also think that like, the things that I walk away learning from this is like, you can work with different people in different fields. Because when you're doing that, like you are using all of the knowledge, like all of us are in different fields, right? I'm in education, like for like secondary curriculum and instruction. And then we got Erica here, when higher education actually was in social work. Like, we collectively all felt the same way about the course that we were in. And so it was interdisciplinary. And it wasn't really about one person or another. It's like, this is the project that I would have never thought that I would have that we would have stumbled upon just from a group chat. Right. And so I think the rewind is, is like, if we could just rewind back in time, I probably would love to go back and be actually able to capture some of those conversations that we were having in a parking lot. Remember how you're having these conversations, you're going back and forth, you're talking about these particular articles. And like, I do remember one day I read are going three times I have no idea what's going on. Like, I came because like Y'all, I read it three times I've got it's like words on paper, it didn't make sense. But it's like, for me, the rewind would be to look at that as like data, right? Like if we could go back and just collect, like capture some of those, like intimate moments that were just what we thought were just conversations. And if we could capture that, though, probably the only thing that I would change, like, I want those, that raw interaction that we had, initially.

Stephanie Shelton  33:11

y'all have answered tons of questions that I've asked, and so what questions might you have for me?

Erica Campbell  33:18

How did you enjoy this process working with us Dr Shelter? How did you enjoy working with students of yours who, you know, really appreciate and are thankful for your mentorship and coaching in this process. 

Ashley Prowell  33:32

And to sorry, could to piggyback on that to add to that, like, how, like being in in it and kind of disrupting it. So you are a part of the professor within the qualitative department. So being in it, and also kind of helping to disrupt at the same time, if you can talk a little bit about that. 

Stephanie Shelton  33:52

Yeah, I think that's those are both really good questions. So I mean, for me, it was, it was it this is gonna sound really cliche, but I don't mean it that way. It was genuinely an honor. It was very touching to me, that you came to me and asked if I would help you support to help support you and moving forward? The answer was, of course, I will, you know, let's, let's figure out how to do it. But it also was scary. Because to go back to Ashley's point, I'm very aware of the fact that like, I'm a white person, um, and I do not have the perspective that you are describing, I do not, I do not know, the experiences, that that needed to be a core part of this paper. And so, working to be very deliberate about making sure that you were always in charge. That, you know, my role was never to take over, because that was already the problem, right? Like that was already wrong. That that white people were silencing black women that white people were, you know, a pervasive voice in qualitative research and so to not duplicate the very problem that was being critiqued. And then in terms of like your right, the article was Typically about the program that I teach in this article changed the way that I teach and a lot of different ways I became much more deliberate about making sure that the experience is the experiences that you describe, like didn't happen again, if I could help it. Um, and and I use your article in the class, students the semester read your article. But we also we, we've implemented like specific pedagogical frameworks that the students are aware of the students read with me, that are specifically targeted at rejecting the status quo rejecting these these Eurocentric white centric norms. And really taking the field of qualitative research to task about the ways that it's duplicated, the very oppressions that it sometimes pretends to critique. And so this process, it was helpful for me, just because I felt like there was an ordinate amount of trust in me helping to guide this process and mentor you. But it was also it was important for me professionally and scholastically, as well, because it's changed a lot of the way that I think about things because it's, I'm never so arrogant as to believe that I know everything. But it was a very explicit moment where the process that you were going through forced me to also actively interrogate the ways that I was potentially contributing to the very things that were being described. And so making sure that I was disrupting that as much as I was able to as well.

Kiara Summerville  36:31

And I appreciate Dr. Shelton, you amplifying our voices in your class, you know, I had multiple folks in that class you taught reach out afterwards, we read your paper in class. We even vote in tweeted about it, you know, as being hands on, and he read our paper. So I appreciate you, you including that in in your course, this paper in your course. And I'm using it as a tool to help your your students learn or think critically about the pedagogy in qualitative research and really, you know, any field that those students will will go on to, to work with.

Stephanie Shelton  37:16

I appreciate you all producing scholarship that that to be something that can make supposedly addressed.

Krystal Flantroy  37:23

I do you have a question. So you worked with us because we basically, were like, hey, we want to write this paper. Do you think in the future that you could see yourself collaborating with students more like maybe a project if, like how you've included us into your curriculum and to your pedagogy in your course, like maybe having a group project where they do something collaborative, and then they see something coming out of it doing this again, with another set of students possibly.

Stephanie Shelton  37:53

So I write the students a lot. Anybody who looks at my CV, there's there's a little symbol that I use to designate whenever the students I wrote soon as a lot. But the answer your question is, yes, I actually because this is an AERA Qualitative, Sig podcast. Boden and I are actually involved in an AERA grant project right now, that is a group of qualitative students. And we anticipate there being multiple collaborative writing projects that come out of that. And it's not that I've never done what you all propose doing ever before. But I do think that the process with us helped to refine and reflect on that process, to continue to make sure that what's happening is useful and helpful to graduate students. Because it's really easy, the stakes are different for y'all than they are for faculty, right? Like, I mean, like, Ashley, you talked about the very beginning when you introduce yourself, like I'm on the job market. And, and so the stakes are different, the calculus is different. And so making sure that what's happening is useful to y'all. And not just you being a means to an end for a faculty member. All right, to wind up my my favorite question, as you all know, what else would you like to share with graduate students, faculty or other listeners,

Kiara Summerville  39:10

I would say, go forward. If you have a project in mind, may use group in mind or just have been pondering on some things, when you're in the classroom or in your graduate student experience or even as a faculty, right? Go forward, you know, try to put it out there, think about how that can really influence higher education and push our field forward. Don't Don't be afraid to step out and try it. Don't be afraid to ask your colleagues if this is something that you think is worthwhile, and to go for it. And then also, like we said earlier, definitely seek out mentorship, seek out coaching, if you don't know how to kind of make those steps. In terms of manuscript writing, don't feel free to ask someone I know. It's like a fear that many of us kind of can, you know can overcome us as we're graduate students and kind of feel like we don't want to bother our faculty members. And we don't really want to ask questions, but feel free to do that, you know, get out of your comfort zone, ask those questions, you know, ask for coaching, ask for mentorship, but you never know what beautiful piece may come from that. So that's some of the advice that I would give. I think,

Ashley Prowell  40:19

I think in terms of collaboration, just also, you know, I think people tend to be afraid to work in groups, sometimes it just depends on your personality. Some people like would rather work alone, and some people actually enjoy working with groups. But if you're, you know, afraid of that, just being I think for us, it was a little bit easier because we were all friends and but just so being honest about kind of where we were at in our journey and what we had time for and okay, I can take on this and I can't you know, just so just being honest and upfront about that. And I think that tends to help the the process go smoother. 

Kiara Summerville  41:02

In our paper we talk about we side Patricia Hill Collins in one of her 1986 essays, and we talked about how we use our marginality as an excitement to creativity. And so my thoughts for anyone, students, faculty, other listeners is, you know, what the four of us we could have just continued on about our way and maybe continue to complain, maybe, I don't know what we would have done if we wouldn't have done this paper. But we could have just went on finish that class that semester just kept going in our journeys, but we decided, like Ashley said earlier to use our thoughts in a scholarly way and that helped us write get a publication, but it helped us to you know, streamline our thoughts and, and even thinking about this conversation is helping us to give back to qualitative research in the field of education and, um, you know, really, academia, you know, all the things giving back by nature of sharing our experience and feeling like we were not getting in that class and having to use, you know, our marginality as an excitement to creativity to this creative work that we've put out into the world. So that would be my advice to listeners is to think about what he'll Collins said, and I'm using that marginality to, for to be creative with it, and help yourself to also helping others which in a lot of ways is kind of the foundation of black feminist epistemology in the first place, creating a gateway to entryway for all for all folks by nature of you know, our own position as black women.

Krystal Flantroy  42:44

And I just want to challenge graduate students, faculty, and other people who are listening to be the changemakers, right? Be the people that disrupt the normal pedagogical policies that we see in qualitative inquiry, right? You don't have to cover the people in the book, you can go out and research and dig deep, and try to diversify what it is that you have been doing. And what it is you have been learning about. If you have a thought in your head, it might be a theorist that already said it thought it up and go research that person, go follow that person, go use that person, scholarships and hope propel yourself forward. And so I just want to challenge people to think outside the box and dig deep and help your students to dig deep beyond what's on the surface or beyond what's Eurocentric and what's been normalized for us. So

Ashley Prowell  43:44

Yeah, I think it's a testament to Collins theory is like disrupting and kind of her outside or within theory, just disrupting and beat navigating the system, but also being able to disrupt it at the same time. So I feel like that's what we did with our paper. I feel like that's what Dr. Shelton was doing by helping us. So. Yeah. 

Stephanie Shelton  44:10

Alright, so Dr. Kiara Somerville, and the future Dr. Erica Campbell, and the future of Dr. Kystal Flantroy and Dr. Ashley Prowell. Thank you very much for joining us today for qualitative conversations. 

In this episode, Dr. Travis Marn interviews Dr. Jori Hall, winner of the 2021 Qualitative Research SIG's Outstanding Book Award. The conversation revolves around Dr. Hall's book "Focus Groups: Culturally Responsive Approaches for Qualitative Inquiry and Program Evaluations." The following text is a transcript of the conversation. 

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Travis Marn  00:11

Hello everyone and welcome to qualitative conversations, a podcast series hosted by the Qualitative Research Special Interest Group of the American Educational Research Association. I am Travis Marn, the current chair of the Qualitative Research Special Interest Groups Outstanding Book Award Committee. I'm excited to be joined today by Dr. Jori Hall, who was the recipient of the 2021 outstanding Book Award for her book, "Focus Groups: Culturally Responsive Approaches for Qualitative Inquiry and Program Evaluations" published by Meyer Education Press in 2020. Dr. Jori Hall is a multidisciplinary researcher, evaluator, and professor at the University of Georgia. Her work focuses on social inequalities and addresses issues of evaluation and research methodology, cultural responsiveness, and the role of values in privilege within the fields of education and health. She has contributed to numerous peer-reviewed journals and other publications like the "Handbook of Mixed Methods Research" and the "Oxford Handbook of Multi- and Mixed-Methods Research." She has evaluated programs funded by the National Science Foundation, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and the International Baccalaureate Foundation. In recognition of her evaluation scholarship, Dr. Hall was selected as the Leaders of Equitable Evaluation and Diversity Fellow by the Annie E. Casey Foundation. Thank you for joining me here today, Dr. Hall. It's a privilege to have you with us.

Jori Hall  01:32

Hey, Travis, it's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.

Travis Marn  01:36

So we had a highly competitive field last cycle and your book stood out immediately to members of the committee. The committee was very impressed with how you evolved a common qualitative method like the focus group, and innovatively lensed through cultural responsiveness. Considering the rapidly changing context of what it means to conduct qualitative research with and in marginalized communities, your book is exceptionally timely and innovative. The committee was impressed with how welcoming your book was to new researchers, while not losing any of the depth and complexity of your topic. The feeling of the committee about your book can best be summed up by the very first sentence a member of the committee sent after they read your book, quote, "this book is a must read text for any qualitative researcher and program evaluator who is considering working with focus groups, or already doing so." Your book richly deserved our 2021 Outstanding Book Award.

Jori Hall  02:27

Well, that is humbling to hear. I appreciate you sharing that I don't think I heard that quote. So again, thank you so much. And I will say, if it is something that is digestible it is because I have spent years teaching courses on qualitative inquiry and I don't lose sight of the fact that I am constantly trying to communicate to novice and even seasoned researchers alike, how it is to think about qualitative research and how to use it in ways that are responsive. And so I'm glad that that came across in the book, because it's something that I'm always challenged by always thinking about how to best describe any particular method. But in this case, focus groups. I do think that focus groups, as you said, is something that is underutilized. It's a common method, people heard of it before, but in some respects, it is underutilized. And given today's climate, with everything being online due to COVID, there are ways to think about it that can be creative, that can be culturally responsive. And that can even bring some rich information to any research project. So I hope people can see that as they encounter the book and take it up.

Travis Marn  03:52

I think the accessibility and how easy to read and how well structured the book just lends itself to being a work that anyone can use any kind of researcher, whether you're just starting out, or whether like you said they're seasoned researcher, like I appreciate it, you have whole chapters on like online focus groups, and how to do indigenous focus, focus groups, and all the way from design to analysis, your book, it's really kind of an all in one for anyone looking to conduct high quality focus groups. So we definitely with the committee, we really appreciated that about your book. So why don't you just tell us about your book?

Jori Hall  04:31

Wow, that's a big question, but I appreciate it. So the book tried to do different things. And I'm glad that it was executed well, because it was it was quite a challenge. I wanted to tackle some topics that don't get a lot of light or when they do get light. It's within the context of a larger methodological handbook, for example, and one chapter or one section is devoted to focus groups. So I'm very excited that we have an entire book dedicated to focus group and highlights how to do those were different types of folks. And so that's what the book is about. That's what I aim to do is to say, "Okay, here's a relatively common method that's underutilized. How can we think about that with respect to different types of groups," and I thought about which groups that I wanted to focus on. And there's so many more groups that deserve attention. But again, the book had limits, I have limits. And so these were the ones that rose to the top based on my experience. And I also wanted to have examples, right? I feel like oftentimes, you could share information. But to make it more concrete, give folks an example. Let them see how it was done in practice. And so the reason why those particular groups got selected the older adults is a group I looked at, I looked at indigenous folk, I look at Black women, like you were saying, and I had really strong examples, from practice taken from former students, current evaluators, current researchers that are in the field trying to make this work happen. And I wanted to be also very transparent, and very realistic about how it is this methodology gets implemented. And that's to say, it is challenging work. It's not easy to make those connections in the context of research. So within the examples that are sprinkled throughout the book, there are lessons learned, what would you have done differently, so people reading the examples can benefit from that those lessons learned? I think they're highly instructive. And I'll just say too, one of the things that's unique about focus groups, and I try to convey this in the book is that different from individual interviews, the most fascinating thing is, you get what I call a twofer trap. And a twofer is you get the interview data, but you also get observational data. And so you get to witness how it is people construct meaning. And I think in real time, and it's very dynamic. And I think that that's really fascinating. So they have a method where you get interview data, and observational data is something that is unique to focus groups, I think and, again, that's that's what I wanted to put in the book. To get across that we need to take advantage more so of the observational data that focus groups can provide the dynamics between the participants themselves. And lastly, I'll say, there is a social justice component that I tried to weave through as well. And this is hugely important given the culturally responsive orientation that I have Travis, because one thing I'm trying to say in the book is this focus groups in and of themselves, do not require you to do anything with the data beyond you know, collected from the focus group, moderate all of it. But the the lens that I'm coming from the perspective that I'm coming from is saying to be culturally responsive also includes being active action about data, right, doing something with the data, that's a benefit to the particular community. And so to think carefully about those things, how can it benefit the community? So there's lots of other things in the book, but those are some of the main things that I set out to accomplish with the book, Travis.

Travis Marn  08:25

And I think the examples that you were talking about the chapter on indigenous focus groups, to me was just so insightful, even someone I've never done, focus group before. And reading it really kind of showed me how much goes into kind of that social justice focused focus group. And so I'm wondering, how did you pick which groups that you wanted to kind of highlight in the book? 

Jori Hall  08:50

Yeah, and I was alluded to this a little bit before, but again, it came out because these are the kinds of groups that I personally worked with. And then also, for the case examples, I wanted to make sure for whatever groups I decided to put in the book that I had strong case examples. And so those happen to be the ones that I have strong case examples for I have been working, teaching, conducting research at UGA University of Georgia for over a decade. And because of that, Travis, I've worked with a lot of students, a lot of graduate students, and I called on some of those former graduate students to help me think about the cases in the book. So all of these things to have is what I'm saying is all these things kind of work together to make the decisions about which ones rose to the top. And you know, even within each group, there are there is so much diversity, right? There's no one indigenous group. And so, and I just wanted to celebrate that and and I hope that comes across that I'm not suggesting that there is one type of anything, but that and that there's diversity within the groups that I'm talking about. So I hope that that comes across,

Travis Marn  10:09

I think it definitely does in your work and through your examples. So I'm gonna ask you a really this is a really small question. So I hope you can answer this one, what makes for a culturally responsive focus group?

Jori Hall  10:21

Right. So this is something that I talked about when I did a webinar for the CDC recently, and as part of that webinar, I tried to make this very point clear, and I had a slide. And I had on one side of the slide, traditional focus group, what that is, it was a definition. And then on the other side, I had culturally responsive focus group. And you can see side by side, we don't have that now, nobody can see my slides, because this is a podcast, right? But the point I was making is that a traditional focus group is defined as a group discussion that you have, with particular people about a certain topic, nothing about that definition suggests anything about being culturally responsive, or social justice, or empowerment or anything like this. So there's no commitment to those kinds of things in a traditional focus group, and actually some of the history of focus group, how did the methodology itself come about, it's through marketing. And so it has its own history. And what I'm saying is, okay, focus group has a unique history, it comes out of marketing techniques, when people trying to get information about different things different I don't know, you can think of different items in the store or different interventions, and people want it to have groups come together and give their opinion about those things. And then it moves into social science. And now what I'm saying is, we can enhance the traditional focus group from how it was previously done to be squarely focused on social justice kinds of aims and orientations. And I was just gonna say this as well. That's what makes it different. But also, when we say social justice, that means so many different things. And we have to even clarify what that means, given the people that we're working with. So it's just a real, intentional approach around actionable data, working with the community, thinking better about them in terms of the protocol, the questions we're asking and having them participate to some extent in that in terms of giving their feedback about what they want to, you know, share, and how could it be beneficial to them?

12:48

And so you suggest that multicultural validity and inquirer reflexivity as criteria for establishing qualitative rigor and focus groups. Can you tell us more about that?

12:58

Sure, it's kind of hard to do in a little bit of time. But I will refer people to the person that I drew from in those discussions, Travis, and that is the work of Karen Kirkhart. And Karen Kirkhart is a very wonderful, thoughtful, culturally responsive inquirer. And I drew on her word to explain those things primarily, and Hazel Symonette as well in terms of reflexivity. But Karen Kirkhart has articles and things about multicultural validity, as she says a lot of things about that, that folks can go and look at later. But one point that I tried to make in the book and for the purposes of the podcast, I'll say is consequential validity is part of that. And what that means is thinking about the consequences of our focus groups for the people that are participating. We don't want to put people in harm's way. We don't want to put people in jeopardy. And so what are the consequences of these people, whoever they are participating in your focus group. And that's one of the aspects of multicultural validity. The other thing that Karen Kerr cart makes very clear that I appreciate is that this isn't some other kind of validity. This actually is part of regular validity, if you will, and does do a lot to enhance the credibility quality of the work. And you also mentioned reflexivity. I drew on the work of Hazel Symonette and she does a very good job of speaking on this, but I won't do it justice but I will say the main point with reflexivity is to as researchers evaluators, is to not just think about what's happening, but create an action plan in response to things so it's not just reflection as an "Oh, I sit and think about what happened that was horrible or that was great." But what are you now going to to do and that's reflexivity, how are you now going to adopt the design if the protocol isn't working? Now what? So that's what I'll say about those two things. I won't do them justice in the podcast, but certainly both can, you know, go back and follow up on that.

Travis Marn  15:18

And they can read your book for even more insights. And that's something reflexivity is definitely something just so vital to all qualitative researchers. One thing that I'm interested in is novice researchers who are kind of looking to bring social justice into focus their focus group method, where do novice researchers were can they start to kind of go down this path of social justice in focus groups?

Jori Hall  15:43

That is a great question, where to begin? I think a great philosopher Winnie the Pooh said, "start at the beginning." I don't know if it was Winnie the Pooh, but I always like that, um, anyway, I think that one of the things to do is to learn about the strengths and the limitations of focus groups. So when I work with graduate students, which I tend to do a lot, I tried to suggest to them very strongly that whatever method you're interested in, you want to know the ins and outs of the method, what can it afford? And what are the limitations? And I think that's a good starting place, and really understanding that so then before you decide where it could fit into a design, you already know that it may be more appropriate here and less appropriate there. Beyond that, I think once you figure out the strengths and limitations of focus groups, I think you need to think about if you know who your participants are, how might they respond to a focus group discussion, and getting feedback about that, before any final decisions are made about where it fits in your design, culturally responsive approach would implore you to get feedback on that. And you can get feedback on that from, you know, another expert in the field, or someone in the community that you intend to work with or working with. But those are the two places that I would encourage folks to begin,

Travis Marn  17:16

I think there's no substitute for just knowing the method in and out. And your book, I think provides such a great set of tools for our novice researchers to really engage with the focus group. So shifting topics a little bit. A lot of people who listen to this podcast are people who are writing books or want to write books. So I'd be very curious. So can you describe your process for writing and publishing this book?

Jori Hall  17:39

Travis, it was bananas. Writing a book is more than a notion, right? Like, let's just be honest. So but in all seriousness, one of the first things is to write a proposal, and usually publishers out there, if you intend to go with a publisher, they have a template for you. And they will tell you exactly the things to include in our proposal. One of the key things, there's a lot of key things, but one of the key things that you want to think about is if you're writing your book, what are the books that are related to the kind of book you want to write about? So for me, it was what's already out there in terms of books on focus groups, and I wanted to pitch how my book is different from those books, right? Like, what is it that my book is doing that those other books aren't doing or aren't doing as well, or that I will do differently. And so I would encourage people who are interested in writing a book to survey what books are out there that are related to the kind of book that they would like to write, and you need a sample of let's say, like, you know, a handful or so and then from there, carefully begin to articulate how your book is going to do something different or stand out above those books, right? And how is it going to contribute to whatever literature you're trying to contribute to?

Travis Marn  19:00

And so the actual writing of the book, how can you describe the writing process?

Jori Hall  19:05

Sure, well, that was bananas, too. But what helped is that I talked to people who, who wrote books, to get feedback from them how they went through the process. But ultimately, Travis, you know how it is, is, you have to come to your own way of doing something, you have to adapt it for yourself, you have to figure out what works for you. And what worked for me was plotting out my writing time and sticking to it. So what that means is we're on semesters, so I had goals for each semester about where I wanted to go with the book. And I will plot that out for myself and then weekly goals, I will play that out for myself. Of course you negotiate with the publishers the timeline for the book, but you still have to figure out if the book is due two years from now. How do you write so that it is done, and we have benchmarks for yourself. The other thing I did for myself was I took myself on my own writing retreat. So I kind of eliminated distractions from just typical everyday life. And I said, Okay, I rented an Airbnb, for example, and plop myself in front of the laptop and plugged away and took breaks. And lastly, I will say, with the brakes, rest this, this may not seem important, but it is, rest is important. And health is important. Because what I've come to find out, you have to have a sound mind, and healthy body in order to be thoughtful, right. So all of these things play a role. If you're stressed out, if you're tired, that doesn't really produce your best writing. It's not your best self. So take care of yourself. Taking care of yourself along the way, is really, really important, given the stressors of everyday life in the stress of writing a book. So those are the things that come to mind straight away.

Travis Marn  21:06

It's very interesting to take care of yourself while trying to produce this work. I think that's a such a good thing, just to have researchers remember that they're human, and not robots producing this work? Did you write the book sequentially? Or did you jump around in the writing process?

Jori Hall  21:24

Yeah, so I explained this to students like research itself, it's dynamic, I jumped all over the place, because what would happen is I would get into a chapter, and I would be inspired by something which would then trigger a thought for another chapter. So I would create little notes for myself to incorporate it in another chapter. And I will come back to it. And so it evolved, I learned different ways of saying things. And as I read more, I was simultaneously reading a little bit as I wrote the book, and I think reading to me, is so helpful with writing is so helpful. So although I had goals to complete certain chapters, certain sections, believe me, I did have to go back into a section from time to time to beef it up, or to streamline it, to say it in a way that I felt like was more clear, more coherent. And then in the end, I had other people as much as I could provide feedback to make sure that the points that I were trying to, you know, trying to make came across. 

Travis Marn  22:34

Was there any part of the book that was especially meaningful for you? 

Jori Hall  22:37

Hmm, that's another good question. Wow you just come in with all these awesome questions, Travis.

Travis Marn  22:42

Um, I try. 

Jori Hall  22:46

I think, for me, it wasn't so much a particular section. It's just I wanted to contribute, work that would support people that are vulnerable, that are put in these situations. And I wanted to contribute research and thinking about research that would give other researchers permission to tailor their work in a way that would not just benefit the literature, but would actually help somebody would actually be meaningful, and not give up on rigor, because I think there is this undercurrent, and maybe it's not an undercurrent, maybe it's this explicit thing that if you're culturally responsive, somehow you're giving up on rigor and objectivity or something like this. And I just wanted to contribute something that suggests no, actually doing these things enhances rigor. And you can also help someone along the way how, and to what extent, sure, that varies, and we could, you know, talk about that. But I think that that's what drove me to do it. And like with anything I see where you can be improved now. And, you know, I hope to continue this conversation about focus groups and being culturally responsive. So it's just a humble attempt to do that, Travis.

Travis Marn  24:15

A humble attempt and an outstanding outcome I think in that process, the book's just fantastic. So where can people access your ongoing work?

24:25

Sure. So Wow, that's awesome question, too. I the book is on Amazon and all the other things and then I'm still trying to crank out different articles, most of my articles, land in evaluation journals. And so the American Journal of Evaluation is where some of my articles are, that's the home for many of them. But what's also fun and interesting is you might find my name in some health journals. And that's because I also work with people in health disciplines and to think about, you know, methods and analyzing focus group data. So I'm sprinkled throughout different disciplines in different journals and things like this because I truly believe in collaboration, Travis, I truly believe in interdisciplinary work. I think it strengthens whatever we're trying to accomplish. And so yeah, I enjoy working with others.

Travis Marn  25:21

And I believe people can follow you on Twitter as well. 

Jori Hall  25:24

Oh yeah

Travis Marn  25:25

Your hour by hour thoughts as well. 

Jori Hall  25:27

That's right, that's right Travis. 

Travis Marn  25:29

It was an honor to read your book as a committee member. And it's been a privilege to have you here and I want to offer the committee's congratulations again, your book very much deserved our 2021 Outstanding Book Award. Thank you again.

Jori Hall  25:42

Thank you. This was a treat to talk to you today. Thanks for having me.

QR SIG AD  25:52

The Qualitative Research Special Interest Group was established in 1987 to create a space within the American Educational Research Association for the discussion of ethical, philosophical and methodological issues in qualitative research. We invite you to consider joining the qualitative research SIG today. For members of AERA the annual fee for joining qualitative research special interest group for regular non-graduate student members is $10. And the annual fee for graduate students is $5. As members of the QR SIG, you will gain access to a network of fellow qualitative scholars as well as are many activities ranging from mentoring opportunities to our podcast series, To updates and news related to recent quality publications and jobs. Please visit the American Educational Research Association's website at www.aera.net to join the qualitative research SIG today.

In this episode, Dr. Jenni Wolgemuth interviews the QR SIG's 2021 Outstanding Dissertation Award winner Dr. Marie Vea. Dr. Vea is the Assistant Dean for Student Services and Staff Development at the University of Vermont. Dr. Vea's dissertation is titled Sense of Place and Ways of Knowing: The Landscape of Experience for Black, Indigenous and People of Color in Natural Resources, Environmental Education and Placed-based Learning. The follow text presents a transcript of the recording. 

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Jenni  0:25  

Hello, everyone and welcome to qualitative conversations a podcast series hosted by the qualitative research special interest group of the American Educational Research Association. I'm Jennifer Wolgemuth, the current chair of the qualitative research special interest group outstanding dissertation award committee. I am very excited to be joined today by Dr. Maria Vea, who is the recipient of the 2021 outstanding dissertation Award for her dissertation titled, Sense of Place and Ways of Knowing: The Landscape of Experience for Black, Indigenous and People of Color in Natural Resources, Environmental Education and Placed-based Learning. Dr. Vea is an assistant dean for student services and staff development at the University of Vermont in the School of environment natural resources, where she has worked and studied for over 20 years. Her areas of research expertise and experience include green jobs and internships, social justice, and engaged learning. Thank you for joining me today, Dr. Vea. I'm really thrilled to learn more about you and your work. So to get us going, I was thinking our audience would appreciate learning more about your dissertation work. Can you talk about your dissertation, maybe about its scope, and its methodological focus.

Marie  1:54  

Thank you, Jenni. And thank you also for the opportunity to talk with you more and to for the award, I was really honored to stand with so many wonderful researchers, and also to bring some light to some of the work that I and my co researchers and colleagues have been doing. And as you mentioned, so the title of the dissertation speaks a lot to what the content and scope is. So sense of place, and ways of knowing. So where we are in place, not just physically but also metaphorically and figuratively, and ways of knowing epistemologies, how we arrive at the things that we believe we know and are important to us and make meaning of experience. But that's specifically what is experienced for black, indigenous and people of color bipoc folks in the field that I spend the most of my time and career in. So those are places related to natural resources, environmental education, and place based learning. So I've worked in the Rubenstein School of Environment and Natural Resources for 17 years, and have worked with bipoc folks coming through those curriculum in the environment, and have found witnessed the challenges that a lot of the students, alumni and colleagues have within environmental learning and working spaces. So the dissertation really focuses on what has been called academic imperialism and epistemic injustice, how ways of knowing and experiences of this population of folks are invisible alized, diminished, erased from the larger environmental narratives. And oftentimes, what I experienced is that when we ask questions about why aren't people of color interested, or in the environmental fields, it's from a perspective of no lacking something, or it's not interesting enough, it's from a deficits, perspective. And this dissertation focuses on the strengths based perspective because, like, with underrepresented folks of all identities, we're here, we've been here and we continue to be here. And why is that? How do we sustain how do we survive? So the dissertation is a strengths based perspective, with co-researchers that are nine alumni of the Rubenstein school. And we came together to share stories and images and reflections in an environment that really was inspired by indigenous research methodologies, methodologies and methods and came out understanding having a better understanding of our individual ways of knowing and our collective Ways of Knowing that help us to survive and thrive in these learning and working spaces. A big part of the journey qualitative research. So coming together with people that I had long time relationship with, and standing shoulder to shoulder and strength to strength with them, acknowledging and honoring their experience and wisdom, and uplifting, that they have as much wisdom and expertise of their experience as anybody that might have a credential behind their name. So the other piece that I'll just add in terms of scope, and I'm talking to primarily I hope, folks in education in higher education and environmental education, and in some part, telling them what has happened and how we can make a change. But really, I want to talk to the folks of color that are wondering, how can I make find my space in place in the field of education in research in the environment? And how do I do that, that is in integrity with who I am, where I come from my ancestors, and with a spirit of joy in the face of challenges, especially in the last couple of years. So, so all of that is, is part of the scope of this particular work.

Jenni  6:26  

Beautiful, I'd love to hear your talk. And and that really comes through so clearly in reading your work. One of the things that I appreciated about it as a methodologist is that the the commitment and the ethic and the epistemology, your epistemological position, seem to drive your methodology that the methodology emerged through the process of the inquiry, as opposed to what we so often see, which is the methodology was chosen and decided in advance. So I would be sort of interested to hear your thoughts on that, particularly in relation to your decision to take a participatory approach to do this as a collaborative work. Can you talk about why you involved your participants, as co researchers, and then more broadly, about the methodological decision making that you made this work?

Marie  7:28  

Thanks, Jenni, it's, it's interesting and great that you should say that the methodology didn't drive the work was the the the work, the capital W work that drove the methodology. And if, you know, I was a career counselor for a number of years, and I'm still kind of a career counselor when I advise students. And oftentimes, I think the aspiration for all of us is that, that I can show up to my full as my full self wherever I am. And I'm working with students for the last 20 plus years and specifically with students that are interested in the environment for the last 17 building relationship, telling stories creating environments where people can explore and fail and be awkward and you know, share and be vulnerable is part of what I think really makes the community where work really vital. And so that when I was exploring dissertation work and doctoral work, from the very beginning, I wanted it to be creative. I wanted to I wanted it to keep me engaged, and have it be fun. I don't know that you can use the word fun in research I tried. And, and also have it be you can only tell stories, best the stories that you know, well. And the stories I knew well. We're working with students, with students of color, specifically, as they came through four years of development and in education, and then after they graduated. So when I thought about what I wanted to research and what what I wanted to spend a lot of time and heart on. It was with the students and alumni, actually, and these co researchers were alumni from the years 2005 to 2018. I kept in touch with them all of those years, dinners and chats and walks and adventures and really had gotten to see them through many years of change and, and identity work. So my I had several proposals for dissertation before it actually landed on this one. That's probably the case with A lot of people, but um, but out of relationship and love, I so wanted to tell the story of these folks that came through a lot of experience, and we're making changes in the world that I so admired. And I wanted to do it in a way where it felt like we were family coming together over the course of a few months. And certainly over the course of the year that I was writing this up. So um, so that drove the methodology, being in relationship, telling stories, being accountable to each other, creating environments where we could ask hard questions of ourselves, and of each other, and honoring the wisdom that they all brought. And it came together really beautifully. Because we loved being with each other. We love telling stories. And over the course of the two to three months that we conducted the research of talking and sharing stories, we saw each other through many changes and the methodology of a visual relational narrative inquiry, using images and stories. And using larger narratives as, as a means of making meaning just felt really natural. That's how we conducted our relationship, even before we could call it a dissertation research. So that's how we came to the methodology. And I have to, I have to give a shout out to my influences, Kelly Clark Keefe and the Rubenstein school. The the many authors, Robin kimmerer, and Gregory kahit. De and so many people that were part of the story and seen and unseen ways. It's a huge network. And I think that's part of a qualitative research is for me, is that it's not just when I sit down and crunch data, but it's all of my experience that bears meaning to what I'm trying to make sense of at the time.

Jenni  12:13  

I love that response I've been involved in pulled into not unwillingly some grant writing, and to do grant writing, you need to tell people what you're going to do in advance. And it's difficult to for me to, to do that we're going to do this in advance, but also hold that space for the emergent methodology in the emergent design and make everyone or try to make everyone on the grant team comfortable with that idea that, that in a really good qualitative research project like yours, the methodology does emerge with the work as opposed to often the other way around. So beautiful example of it. Thank you.

QR SIG AD  12:58  

The qualitative research special interest group was established in 1987 to create a space within the American Educational Research Association. For the discussion of ethical, philosophical and methodological issues in qualitative research. We invite you to consider joining the qualitative research SIG today are members of a era, the annual fee for joining qualitative research special interest group for regular non graduate student members is $10. And the annual fee for graduate students is $5. As members of the QR SIG, you will gain access to a network of fellow qualitative scholars, as well as our many activities ranging from mentoring opportunities to our podcast series to update to news related to recent qualitative publications and jobs, please visit the American Educational Research Association website at www dot att era dotnet to join the qualitative research sake today.

Jenni 13:52  

I'm really curious about you have a strike through in your title that that caught my eye immediately. There are some words that aren't sticking through and then there are words that are stricken through and in particular, the words that are stricken through our natural resources, environmental education and place based learning. Can you talk about why strike through there and what what you wanted to communicate? And how other people have reacted to those strike? throughs?

Marie  14:22  

Yeah, yeah. Um, so those terms on the in the field of environmental education, those are the most popular terms to describe anybody that is interested in the environment. And those are the names of the programs that are really popular related to that. So there's a familiarity of that. Oh, okay. So we're going to talk about these fields. And those all three of those terms have a colonialist and imperialist history to it, and it extractive history to it. So natural resources is extraction from the natural world where that the land is the source of goods and services. Environmental Education, writ large is connecting people to the land. And it was coined at a time where it felt really novel, to call it environmental education where environmental education had been happening for millennia, anybody who was living on the land was doing environmental education, and then place based education as, as a pedagogy. I had always had questions about what place whose place? How deep, are you going to ask those questions about history of place and connect and relationship to place. So I wanted to trouble all of that, to bring your eye to bring a reader's eye to those terms, and what those terms meant to them, and then putting a line right through them to say, you know, we're not, we're going to trouble this a lot. And I'm hoping to add hope to, you know, just pull the rug out from under some folks a little bit. But also demonstrate that we are going to go to some places where, you know, when you see something crossed out, it kind of gives you a little bit of a shock. And I find in my work that that little instability is actually that tension can actually be a really great site for learning if you're open to it. So that's the invitation.

Jenni  16:39  

I love it. I might have to connect with you after this podcast, absolutely. Questions and even some resources. So you're a fabulous source. So I'm just going to ask you about what inspired you to do the dissertation? And maybe that's still a valid question, or a good question to be asking, given everything you've shared so far, far, I'd also be interested in hearing beyond your career and your professional interest, if there's anything personal that really drove you to doing this dissertation.

Marie  17:21  

Sure. Um, so I've actually been thinking, I don't know how far back we want to go. But I have been thinking it's I did, um, my graduate work a Master's of education at the University of Buffalo, in, in higher ed. And out coming out of that, I knew that I wanted to do a doctorate at some point. And, you know, of course, I'm the kind of person that just sort of follows my nose and flies by the seat of my pants. So back then back in the 90s, when I graduated, like, oh, international education, that sounded like a good doctorate, and then I hold on to that for a little bit, and then let that go. And so that the the wanting to study more and study more deeply had always been there, especially if you work in higher education, it's, it's in the water, in some ways, it's kind of an expectation. And after my master's degree, I'd worked at a couple of different institutions, or during my master's degree, I've worked at a couple of institutions. So one of them was Naropa Institute, now Naropa University. And it's the only Buddhist inspired institution in the country. And so imagine, my very first day on the job, I was in tea ceremony for six hours. So that's education. That's incredible. You can get a bachelor's degree in transcendental meditation and these disciplines that coming out of higher ed, I didn't know you could study these things. So that was one experience. And then, for four years after graduate work, I worked at the Savannah College of Art and Design. And while I can't claim to be an artist, the way that these students are artists, it really underscored for me how sharing knowledge can happen in so many different ways. And that getting lost in a medium. When students would tell me they were up for four days straight putting their exhibition together, that kind of experience. I envied, you know, to be so steeped in what you loved. Doing and doing it in an experiential way, not just reading and not just with your head, but with your entire body in many ways. I'm finding just the questions that you asked me Jen and finding that those are those are really profound influences on what I how I wanted to manage my my doctoral work. And then in 20,000, in 2010, when I finally had time to take some graduate work, I took a class with Dr. Corinne Gladney on qualitative research and data analysis. And poetry could be data, what? poetic transcription, drama, really all of these things, images, paintings could be data and analyzes data. So that really got me going. And things percolate for me. So all of these streams of artistic and arts based kind of methods and looking at data and graduate work is beyond just doing the scientific method data and collecting data, and then analyzing it and putting it into five chapters of a dissertation. I got the sense that I could do something much different. And so I did formally pursue the doctoral work and found people that were a bit left of conventional to talk with and, and also being situated in a school of Environment and Natural Resources, the nature connection, there are so many beautiful metaphors, and synchronicities, and, and learnings from that area of my work. It all kind of came together. So I think I might have lost the thread of what of your question, Jenni, but the journey, but there were multiple, multiple journeys, that because there's a time constraints on completing a dissertation, I needed to bring it all together, and brought it all together somehow, in questions about my own experience, in relationship with other people of color, relationship to land and sense of place. And I'm really grateful for the folks that pointed the way in terms of what qualitative research could be, and what I loved, I love the quotes from thin clendenen, that...if you're, if you're not asking more questions, after your research, you're doing it wrong. And that you fall in love with the people you are working with along the way and with the work. And I can sincerely say that this is this was a work of joy and love. It motivated me through the work. And it also compelled me to finish it in a way that honored and respected the contributions of my co researchers and everybody that was a part of, of this adventure. So all of that all of my experiences, all of the adventures and all the detours come up in this dissertation.

Jenni  23:04  

I love it. There's there's so much in higher education. That that encourages segmentation and encourages only bringing in a piece of yourself or a piece of your life or a particular storyline to your research. And for some people, that's fine, the segmentation works. What I like about you is that that there's a wholeness, even as you said, the story you're telling is partial or even the story you're telling has multiple lines, and there are multiple ways you could story are coming to the dissertation. There's a sense of fullness and wholeness. And you're bringing in so many experiences and so many values and so many emotions into the work and for you, it sounds like it wouldn't be satisfying. And we certainly picked up on that as a committee as we read it. Had you not done that. So I'm grateful for your work as an exemplar.

Marie  24:03  

Thanks. And if I just add one thing, I just want to name that I had the privilege of doing this as part of it, it was it was a benefit to me as as a staff person at a university. So I mean, I do want to acknowledge that if it weren't for even some of the systemic privileges that I have in this space. I wouldn't I don't know that I would have been able to travel about and, and and move in circles with this. So I mean, there are tensions with that to that, you know, the creativity that that is part of this and the magnitude of of the connections might not have happened if I was compelled to complete it in five years because I needed to find a job afterward. So I think there are those other questions I have about just a system of doctoral work where you got to get it done and you and then you got to go on to the next thing. I think that's that can hamper some people.

Jenni  25:05  

No doubt. So following that, what advice or suggestions then would you share with graduate students who are writing a dissertation? like yours or otherwise?

Marie  25:20  

Yeah. I was thinking about this question last night. And my head went immediately to Oh, bullet points and all of these things and you know, straight strategies and tips and people. And and then I remember that last summer, so june of 2020, I taught a course, to graduate students called epistemological plurality, or multiple ways of knowing. And, and I had 10, masters students masters in the leadership for sustainability at University of Vermont, and then 10 doctoral students from our college of education and social services. And because I was deep into writing my dissertation, I was all about relationality and authentic dissertation. And really, honoring that this body, our individual bodies are the site of knowledge and data and research as well. So I had no idea how I was going to conduct the class with 20 graduate students with Masters and PhD level students. But at the center of it was that each of them are crucial sites of knowledge and crucial sites of experience. So over the course of those six weeks, they were their primary teacher and learner in that experience, I, I shared my thoughts, I shared resources, I gave them prompting questions, but it was really up to them to engage their own learning, where there were no boundaries, there were there were expectations that they would engage with each other and engage with their work, but no particular deadlines to produce anything. And when you take off those, the if you when you offer that freedom, and to express their their exploration, and their their questions and learning in ways that showed up, like music, and drawing, and bookmaking and gardening, oh my gosh, the energy that comes out of that the synergies that come out of that. So my suggestion to graduate students would be to where you can find the the spaces that really strengthen your own internal muscles, engaging the work that you want to do. When you really honor that you do know what you need to do. And there are coaches along the way, but you you're driving the bus and find the Find the language that works best for you. If music is your language, find that if drawing is your language, find that poetry and images are my language. Those are the suggestions that I would make to graduate students. You know, a couple of the practical things. There's, you know, graduate writing centers, and other graduate students that can can inspire and also motivate if I didn't have our Graduate Writing Center as a space where I needed to really focus on my computer and write, I don't I think I might still be writing. So that dissertation, but um, but those are some of the things was there another part of the question about suggestions for reading was that

Jenni 29:11  

Yeah, absolutely. I would be interested in for people who might be specifically interested in your focus area, your content area, as well as your methodological approach. What recommendations might you give to them for readings that really inspired you and your work?

Marie  29:31  

Sure, um so you know, the default I'm looking at my my list of notes and the the people that I will name all have doctor in front of them. Before I get to that list of folks. There are there were there were so many people and and more than human folks that were resources for me. So you know, I want to acknowledge The land I want to acknowledge the, the elders indigenous and and others that graciously gave their time to me I want to I want to acknowledge the other other people that are devoted to these questions, but not in any educational or programmatic sense. And I am going to cite one article. And it's called how to cite like a badass tech feminist scholar of color. And the point of this is unsettling existing research practices by centering indigenous Asian and black feminist perspectives. And as resources I would encourage graduate students or anybody that wants to kind of go off trail for a little bit, is to look for the sources that have been historically erased or diminished. They're not going to show up in peer reviewed journals. They're not going to show up on the reading list of the majority of your professors. It requires a little bit more work and some deeper questions, but it makes the journey so much richer. So having said that, and I think the other programs that I look to look to are the masters of leadership for sustainability at UVM has a group of affiliates that span so many different disciplines and practices. They are inspiring and how they move in the world and ask these questions. Dr. Carolyn Finney, Gregory kahit de and Robin wall kimmerer. Lenny Strobel, who is a Filipino scholar in California and helped me connect to my own Filipino heritage. I mentioned Corinne Gladney, and Kelly Clark Keefe. And the books that I had on my desk all the time, where research is ceremony by Dr. Shawn Wilson decolonizing methodologies by Dr. Linda Smith, I see that on a lot of graduate student desks, and then the authentic dissertation by four arrows or Don Trent Jacobs, those really were inspiring. And it held me up when I thought that am I doing this right? Should I be doing this at all? Is anybody going to pay any attention? They really kept me on track.

Jenni 32:39  

Fabulous, I'm so glad this is being recorded. Otherwise, I'd be madly scribbling. So right now, I have many more videos. Oh, yeah. Well, you send them maybe we can attach them to the, to the podcast. So right now you are currently an assistant dean at the University of Vermont. Can you talk about your career path a little bit and your decision to get a PhD and maybe offer any tips to those who are seeking both academic and administrative careers in higher education?

Marie  33:28  

It's interesting, because I'm just thinking through what what my what my career path was, I shared a little bit about it. And I really, if I were to really encapsulate what my journey was, I just followed the the questions that I loved and the people that I loved. And that happened to land me in higher education. It happened to land me at places like Savannah College of Art and Design and the University of Vermont and, and the Rubenstein School of environment natural resources. I think the experiences that were most helpful it were learning how to get to know people, part of my graduate education at the University of Buffalo, which doesn't exist as a program anymore, is understanding higher ed administration. And there was also a component of that where we learned how to be counselors. And we understood or at least explored the psychology and different methods of understanding how people make meaning and move in the world. And I think for anybody that's pursuing a career career where you're working with people. And when you're working with minds, especially 18 to 27 year old, and I don't even want to bound that in a particular age group. being interested in people, and being interested in how people behave, and what's important to them individually and collectively, has been really important to me in my, in my work and in my career and how I interact with folks. So I think if I were to lay each of my jobs beside each other, that focus on people place in purpose has been the through line across all of those from the from the time that I was an admissions counselor as a graduate student on up now where I work with student services and advising and working with staff on how to staff development in terms of professional development and seeking strategies and opportunities to, to, to, to work better. In some ways, I feel like I want to open a bottle of wine and talk more collectively and in relationship with other people about what that what career means, what work means what it means to work in higher education. And I think higher education is changing so much now, that the path into higher education, I'm not quite sure the traditional ways are getting the degree and applying for the job and understanding the mechanics and the politics of higher education. But I think, and I'm going completely off script with what was my notes? I think, what, what the moment that we have right now is really asking ourselves, what is the value of learning? And is it learning at a university? Or is it learning in some other way that I can contribute to my community contribute to the challenges that face us, and those challenges are huge, their environmental, and their social, and from my perspective, people at the edges, people of marginalized identities are bearing the brunt of a lot of these changes right now. So I'm in this moment, I'm, I'm less interested in career in higher education, and more interested in a pursuit in life that actually will contribute to life and living. If that's how your education, that's great, if that's some other venue, go for it. And I think the possibilities, we are yet to be discovered.

Jenni  37:52  

I love that I'm going a little off script to I have the privilege and the honor to have met a doctoral student who I'm working with right now, who is a career current career counselor at a university and getting their doctoral degree. And they are very interested in the ways in which the university does or does not function as a compassionate or as a caring climate. And so, a lot of the things you're saying or resonating with me about it may not just be that learning can happen differently, or that higher education may not be the only path the most joyful path to learning. But that higher education in and of itself, needs to shift needs to make some shifts needs to do some deep reflection about the kinds of relationships that it currently makes possible. And the ones that it can and should and nurture and the ways in which that nurturing can happen.

Marie  39:01  

Mm hmm. Yes. So and you know, that I, I talked with students about internal locus of control, that's a student affairs can kind of term and in heartwood is that the metaphor that I use where the the heartwood is the thing that actually keeps a tree, upright and upright doesn't necessarily mean stuck straight, but at least having that foundation within oneself that you know, that when you bend in the wind or in certain forces, that you're going to come back up in some measure. And I, you know, I'll say, you know, to kind of bring it full circle is the, when it was clear to me that qualitative research could provide the flexibility and the grounding and the integrity that I needed to ask the questions and make the Explorations that I wanted to It also demonstrated to me that if there are a number of us within the system of higher education, exploring these lines of thought, and conducting methodologies that are within integrity and relationship, that we might actually shift to the experience of higher education for a lot of people, whether we're explicit about it or not, exactly, you know, whether we're, yes, I like to use the word subversion, subvert the status quo and subvert the systems that aren't serving. Well. So nice.

Jenni  40:38  

Well the last thing I think people listening to this podcast would be really interested to hear is, what do you what are you engaging and thinking with now? What is your work look like now? And how can people get access to it?

Marie  40:55  

It's, I'm laughing, because when I was writing my dissertation, the last, you know, few years, I'd say, Well, I can't do that. Because I'm doing this dissertation. Like, I'll get to that after I'm done. And everybody was sort of, Okay, well, let's make sure Marie has time and space to do this. And then when I was done, like, okay, now that you finished, can you do this, this, this and this, and all things that I was really excited about. But ironically, I, I'm feeling like, Oh, where did all of my time go that I said, I would have after I finished writing. But so what I'm doing is them. Because the dissertation, the work of that I'm still in relationship with all of those core researchers, we keep in touch. And that work is so foundational integral and consistent with what I do at University of Vermont. Right now, in real time, where I'm working with the Rubenstein school, in asking questions about how to be a more inclusive place. How to look at the curriculum and make changes to the curriculum, how do we change processes for undergrad and graduate students so that they do feel more supported as they pursue their degrees. So there's that work and doing similar work with organizations that are environmentally related, like fish and wildlife, and our Vermont agency of natural resources. So there's that I'm getting more involved with the Masters for leadership and sustainability here at UVM, that I mentioned earlier. And that's a really liberatory radical, love centered graduate program. So anybody listening, please look at that. And you'll see a lot of what I'm talking about here. Talking with the CO researchers, because qualitative research, I think, in its best, in the best of times, has ripple effects, so that the CO researchers have taken the experience that we had a couple of years ago, and are finding themselves talking about it or learning from it even now, in their different contexts. So I'm curious about those ripple effects of that work. So I'm gonna convene those co researchers over tea and find out what's up with their lives. Leadership practices, and really interested in leadership practices, and facilitation, facilitating, learning and working spaces that are decolonizing, anti racist,and joyful. And then the last thing I'll say that it is immediate. I've been involved with three organizations over the last few years that I'd really love to spend more time with. And I attend an elders gathering each year, where elders from across the globe, talk about their wisdom, share their wisdom, so I'll be doing that this weekend. There's a center for Bobby lon studies based in California that is about Filipino indigenous spirituality. So I'll be spending more time with that. And people of the global majority in the outdoors Environment and Natural Resources is also a national organization that I'd like to spend more time getting to know. And then on the lighter side of things, playing on the water, tending to my garden, picking lots of berries, because it's that time of year. So and having wonderful conversations, I hope with with you, Jenni, again, and with anyone else who's listening to this podcast, I don't have a website. I need to create one. But please feel free anyone to reach out to me. I'm happy to share my dissertation and thoughts. I have conducted a few workshops and, and video videos that you can find on YouTube that I haven't consolidated into one place. But happy to share that too if you reach out to me, and then reaching out to me that isn't in integrity with building relationships. So I love to talk with people that are interested with this.

Jenni  45:23  

Fabulous Do you if someone were interested in reaching out to you, how would they do that? 

Marie  45:29  

Yes, so you can email me at [email protected]

Jenni  45:38  

Thank you so much for your time today, Maria. It's been a joy and a pleasure. And I strongly encourage all of our listeners to engage your work because it was certainly transformative for me, as I am sure it will be for many others. 

Marie  45:59  

Thank you so much, Jenni and I sincerely hope we'll talk again soon.