Here is the full transcript for this episode!
Ava: Interestingly too, as you were talking about your journey finding these, like, religious shoes or spiritual shoes that fit your practice.
What was coming to mind is like the journey of understanding your sexuality, where it's like first you understand how you feel, and then you find the names that makes sense for that based on the names that exist.
Jasper: Yeah. I'm kind of blown away. You used the word shoes, and I was like, I have two feet, so I need two shoes. My left shoe could be Buddhism and my right shoe could be witchcraft.
–Don’t Fear the Mystery–
Jasper: Hey, queer witches, my name is Jasper Joy. I'm a poet, tarot professional and Buddhist witch. I am white and identify as gender queer and neurodivergent. My pronouns are they and he
Ava: And this is Ava. My pronouns are they, he, and she. And I'm a white gender fluid and neuro queerer artist, channeler and spiritual realmist.
Jasper: And we are the Queer Conure Podcast. Together, aligned with our spirit guides and ancestors, we tend to various pathways towards queer magical liberation. We do this with deep gratitude.
Ava: Listeners can expect interviews, deep dives into our passions and intuitions, witchy practices, and more.
Jasper: Stay connected to us by taking a moment, right now, and click the Substack link in the show notes. You can subscribe for free and stay up to date with all of the magical creations we have to offer.
Ava: Before we begin a content notification. We are going to be sharing a wide spectrum of experiences ranging from community pleasure and personal joy to structural harm and Interpersonal suffering. We are embracing the shadows as well as the light. We will include specific trigger warnings in the episode descriptions for the heavier topics.
Jasper: So get your cauldron, baby, because here we go.
–Don’t Fear the Mystery–
Hailey: Hi, it’s me Hailey! In this episode Ava and Jasper nerd out about the intersections and compatibility of Buddhism and witchcraft. And Jasper shares some of their spiritual origin story. An editor’s note, some of our audio is a little rough around the edges in this episode. With the help of our paid subscribers we are upgrading our software and mics. So if you appreciate this podcast and want to support our thriving, please consider becoming a paid subscriber on our Substack. The link to that is in the show notes below!
–Mystery–
Jasper: Queer Conjure has been given permission to use any names or private information that might happen to be in this podcast about other people.
Jasper: I had so much fun doing that Nerd Out about Dragon Dreaming episode and we've talked about doing another one about being a Buddhist witch.
We were talking about it, and I was like, what do we call that? Like, what's the mashup? And I think we said something like Buddhichism.
Ava: Yeah.
Jasper: I think what I want to say first is that I was unclear about whether or not Buddhism was a tradition that I had permission to practice or was it going to be appropriating from a culture that I had no right, you know. And that's one of the things at Queer Conjure that we really pay attention to is whether or not we are culturally appropriating and to try to you know. As white people, as like Western European white people, no matter what we do we’re going to be appropriating some s**t, like we can do our best.
Ava: Yeah, especially living in the states or having been raised in the states, you know. We have created this idea that we were here the whole time kind of thing. So, the idea of appropriation is huge in our… spawning as a country.
And also within spirituality, especially as people talk about like new age spirituality, a lot of people do just borrow symbols and important cultural things from certain religions. And yeah, I think there definitely is a huge difference though, between practicing a religion and being like, I'm going to wear my 'Om', my Hamsa. I'm going to wear, I'm just going to have Hamsa in the house.
Jasper: So what I want to say about that is that in this moment, I describe myself as a Buddhist witch. And I guess my permission slip to call myself that was written by Thich Nhat Hanh. My permission slip was signed by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Ava: Have a Hall Pass.
Jasper: (laughs) Anyway and I want to say that. He passed away in 2022 at the age of like, mid nineties, I think. Yeah. So, the way I practice Buddhism right now, I am actively practicing Zen Buddhism, specifically the Plum Village tradition of Zen Buddhism.
So I actually want to pause a moment here and, and just name one of my complicated feelings about Plum Village tradition. Every single time Thich Nhat Hanh is spoken about, it's in this very saintly way and it bothers me because I have yet to hear a story of Thich Nhat Hanh being a flawed human being.
It's probably out there somewhere, like if I dug around I'd probably find them. But within this tradition that I've been practicing with, I don't hear those stories. Like the worst thing I've heard about Thich Nhat Hanh so far is he liked French fries.
Ava: Cancelable right there.
Jasper: Canceled! No, if we're going to cancel people for liking French fries, I’m fucked. (Ava laughs) Yeah, so a couple months ago, I listened to this interview that was back in 1995. From… I don't remember the name of the radio station but the interviewer asked Thich Nhat Hanh about this phenomenon of Christian Buddhists. Like how can you be a Christian Buddhist at the same time? And Thich Nhat Hanh said this really wonderful thing about one of the foundational beliefs of Buddhism is that everybody has a Buddha body within them.
That we all have Buddha within us. Like Buddha is not a person. Buddha is a state of being so you don't actually have to relinquish or abandon anything about yourself in order to practice Buddhism. It's not a matter of converting.
And I think that's especially true with Zen Buddhism because my understanding of Zen. It is like, the main focus is on practicing meditation with the intention of embodying compassion, understanding self awareness, and then self being this misnomer because there is really no self because every self is just a variation of the universe and interconnectedness.
And that's when it starts weaving into witchcraft for me, because, like the way I just described Zen is also the way I would describe my witchcraft practices. Like I am not like this unique individual that is like in a box operating on my own. I'm actually… There's this song that in a minute I'm going to look up the name of the person singing it, but I've been listening to it on repeat.
And the, the refrain is 'I am made of all the same stuff that makes the seasons what they are. I am made of dirt and stardust.' And that, that is my witchcraft and my Buddhism. So I also know of Christian witches, like Catholic witches, Christian witches. So I'm like, if a Christian gets to be a witch or a Buddhist, what's stopping me from being a Buddhist witch, you know?
So Thich Nhat Hanh said that in the 1995 interview and you know, Thich Nhat Hanh brought Buddhism to France during his exile from Vietnam. And, from there he, he built a place, co-built a place called the Plum Village Tradition. And it was called that because the person who gave them the property, the property was a plum farm. So there were all these plum trees and that's why it was named the Plum Village Tradition. They honored the land they were on by naming their practice the Plum Village Tradition.
Ava: But yeah, like, perhaps the, the practice, or definitely the practice was inspired and was able to grow because of what they were surrounded by and who else was there other than humans.
Jasper: Yeah! So, nature was like, it, you know, it was a part of who they were and they had deep connections with their land.
They have deep connections with their land.
Buddhism also talks about mother nature a lot. They use the word ‘Mother Earth, Mother Nature’ a lot. I feel like I'm bouncing all around cause I have, like, I'm so excited to talk about all the things at the same time.
Ava: But I'm taking it all in, I think that when you're talking about one's practice as it relates to spirituality in general, to try to explain a linear timeline, I don't think that's kind of possible.
Jasper: Ooh, that's a good point. Thank you for that.
So Plum Village has international online sanghas several times a week and it's amazing because that means I am pract… Oh, I'm sorry, sangha simply means like the community that you practice Buddhism with. Specifically the people you practice meditation and Dharma talk with. So it's been lovely because I have been practicing Buddhism with people in Italy, Denmark, Switzerland, South America, Spain.
My understanding of Zen is embodying compassion, understanding, awareness. And using that to lessen the suffering of others, what we usually say is, 'may the merit of my practice benefit all beings', like may the merit of my practice lessen the suffering and increase the joy of all beings. I lost my train of thought. Why was I explaining that?
Ava: Well, I think you're talking about why it's important to you that your sangha is all across the world.
Jasper: Yeah. Yeah.
Like in the last sangha I was in, it was a book study sangha. And before we began, there was kind of like this little show and tell moment and somebody was sitting on this really lovely patio. So, the person showed us all the things that are blooming in their courtyard and we oooh’d and awed at this palm tree that was in their courtyard. That struck me as so beautiful we had this like show and tell check in and this person was like we all need to have reverence for this f*****g palm tree because it's amazing and it's here with us right now.
Yeah, so that is one of the reasons that I keep returning to the Plum Village Tradition. I also, you know, they really emphasize interbeing, like this connectedness which feels very animistic to me.
Like my witchcraft is very much about animism and interbeing and animism. I don't think those two things could really exist without each other. And for me, my understanding of animism is that every single thing I can touch, see, or imagine has a soul. Every idea I have has a soul, every cell in my body has a soul. And the soul, when I speak of the soul, the soul is dirt and stardust.
Yeah, so it's very easy for me to practice Buddhism and witchcraft at the same time. They're very compatible to me. They're, they're like, you know, sweet and savory. And I think if I were to name a difference. Zen Buddhism seeks to create change through meditation. And also engaged Buddhism, which means implementing Buddhist principles to create political, social change. And then, witchcraft, we're doing the same thing and we're also using a lot of physical tools from the earth, from the sky, from the stars. By being a Buddhist witch I build a world and a culture I actually want to be a part of.
I've always dreamed of my home being an available space for the people who are trying to build a world and a culture that I actually want to live in.
Ava: Reminds me of what you sent me from your notes about what Mixiafa was saying about. To like, live in a mindset of utopia. That meaning, we are bound to be in, in a liberated society, that there's a path there. At least that's how I interpret the notes from that.
Jasper: Yeah. Yeah. They were basically saying that what you give the most attention to changes your brain, right? You create these neural pathways. It's so, their idea is that the more you imagine, talk about, strategize for living in utopia. The more we are going to train our brains to, to have liberation and utopia. So they explain utopia as the opposite of oppression, not like a perfect world, but the opposite of oppression. But yes, that is exactly why I keep saying this thing is like, this is the phrase I'm using to conjure our magical queer liberation.
Ava: Wow, what a queer conjure right there. Interestingly too, as you're talking about your journey, finding these, like, religious shoes or spiritual shoes that fit your practice, what was coming to mind is like the journey of understanding your sexuality, where it's like first you understand how you feel and then you find the names that make sense for that based on the names that exist.
Jasper: Yeah. Huh. I'm kind of blown away. You used the word shoes. And I was like, I have two feet, so I need two shoes. My left shoe could be Buddhism and my right shoe could be witchcraft.
And anyway, it just brought this whole like, It's genius. It's blowing my mind right now. So Thich Nhat Hanh was listening to his students talk about a lesson he had just given, and he was like, yes, those are the words I used to teach the lesson, but the point is to go beyond the words.
Ava: I was thinking about something similar the other day. I just posted yesterday, maybe the day before I posted a meditation on our Substack about feeling into your body about what your desires feel like. And I started with a disclaimer because I think it', this is how I approach most readings or someone's words or spiritual work in general is like, you can start off with the framework, or somebody could say, you know, I'm leading you through a meditation. And you do not have to be like, okay, so I start the meditation, they say I'm going to end up in this, I'm going to end up in this, it's like, no, it's something that, it's just like a spark that ignites something within you. It's not necessarily going to be like, you're going to have a blue flame on a piece of birch wood, you know, like. Let it do what it does being, you know,
What's cool, too, is like when you were talking about your current sangha, how I was like, oh, this is the blueprint for having a global network of liberation, right?
Having, you also need your, like, like immediate community, people who are physically near to you, and also, those kind of webs that hop across the universe.
Jasper: So I'm gonna back up and kind of explain my origin story.
So since we started Queer Conjure, one of the ways I write a short bio or introduce myself is to say that I was raised by gay new agers and lesbian Buddhists.
I'm hearing a little bit of a feedback, so I'm going to talk a little slower. So, there is one person in my life that has known me since I was six years old. There is nobody in my life that I communicate with who's known me that long.
So they're like my memory fact checker, her name is Beth. She was viewing my life as a child growing up and I was viewing my life, like, in my child's mind.
Ava: Right.
Jasper: So Beth came into my life when I was about six years old.
Something that was really important to my mom was NA, Narcotics Anonymous. And, I believe my mom and Beth met through Narcotics Anonymous. They were partners in some form or another throughout my whole childhood and my teen years.
As Beth was coming into my life, my mom started building these altars in our house and in the morning she would bring me to the altar and we'd do a tarot card and then we would get out our Buddhist prayer beads and loop them around our fingers and rub them in our palms. And we would use the ‘Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.’ It's like this promise of devotion to, to embody the Buddha, which means like, ‘end one's own suffering and bring peace and joy to the world.’ It's interesting to me that this chant that I didn't understand as a kid, my mom didn't take the time to explain it to me… planted that seed,I've been watering in my subconscious this whole time.
Ava: You know what language it's in?
Jasper: Yes, Japanese.
Ava: I just started learning Japanese on Duolingo.
Jasper: Really?!?
Ava: It's really fun, actually. There's no she and he, interestingly. You just put like the same word that means it's, because the verb comes after the noun.
And yeah, it's really interesting. So like, if you wanted to say, he's a teacher, you'd say sensei desu, sensei desu. Yeah.
Jasper: Oh, so like who you are rather than what you're assigned. Brilliant, I love that. More of that in the world, please. But what my mom would say was 'Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, thank you, Jesus, for this day.'
And my mom talked about angels and Jesus in these really like, paradoxical ways because she would absolutely trash all the Christian institutions. So, she did not operate her life as a Christian, but she brought Jesus and angels into everything. Beth actually told me that at one point my mom was in a club called ‘Weight Lifting for Jesus.’
Ava: Sure. So you can raise him, am I right?
Jasper: Yeah. So my memory is that my mom taught me Buddhism and that Beth is the one that brought Buddhism to my mom. So this was like the, the very beginning of the nineties that I'm talking about, like Beth coming into my life, my mom starting to teach me Buddhism and also my mom very much practiced witchcraft, but she didn't call it that. I was really struggling in the math class and I remember my mom like making this cozy little nest and telling me to do my math homework there and then like bringing out this TV tray and putting crystals and a yellow candle in front of me, you know?
So my mom was teaching me witchcraft and Buddhism. My mom and Beth had lots of spiritual debates because they had very different understandings. My mom was very much like, good and bad is fixed and, like, good only comes through forgiveness from big bad sky daddy. And Beth is like, there are gray areas.
And, I think at that time too, there was this feminist Buddhism emerging, but don't, don't quote me on that. And my understanding of that time as well is that the queer community was really looking for, for these like, fringe spiritual practices that would soothe the overwhelming grief they were having from losing so many friends to AIDS and HIV. That's my understanding of like, how gay new agers came to be. So, so that's Buddhism in my childhood.
And then from there, a couple gay new age men came into my life as like my aunties. And my mom signed me up for all kinds of classes at that store, like alters, crystals, tarot. There's so much there I want to say, but I'm going to skip ahead this time, for real.
So, there was a period in my life when I was part of a Wiccan community that I now understand was a cult and when I left that community. I left because I was pregnant, and while I was pregnant, I started to see, like, the veneer started to peel away, and I was like, I do not want to raise my kid in this community.
–Mystery–
Jasper: Here at Queer Conjure we strive to build community with other organizations in alignment with our liberation focused values. Firestorm Books is a queer, feminist, collectively owned radical bookstore that features books and events tailored to the interests and needs of marginalized communities. When you buy books from Firestorm using the referral code Queer Conjure you contribute 10 percent of your purchase to Queer Conjure's work and you get 10 percent off your order at checkout.
Click the link in our show notes to browse our recommended reading list and make sure to add ‘Tarot for the Hard Work’ by my dear friend, Maria Minnis, to your cart. You can thank me later.
Maria Minnis: Hi, I'm Maria Minnis, author of ‘Tarot for the Hard Work.’ I wrote this book because tarot has always been a powerful guide for introspection and inner work. So, what better tool to use when we're ready to do the really hard work? I provide actionable exercises in this tarot workbook, giving you a unique, personal understanding of what systemic racism is and what steps we can take to begin to dismantle it.
This is a book for anyone who has been overwhelmed, outraged, or frustrated and asked, but what can I do? When you buy my book through Queer Conjure's affiliate link, you support my biggest spell with the intention of creating a more equitable and loving world. Plus, you support an independent bookstore and this awesome podcast.
Bye!
–Mystery–
Jasper: I began going to these queer sanghas in DC. And the queer sanghas were a branch from like it branched off from, there's a Buddhist teacher… who's based in DC named Tara Brach, and I've read a lot of her books, I've listened to a lot of her lectures, and, you know, during that time, my Buddhism started to arrive, arrive again and I was starting to physically transition.
So like, I find it really interesting that is also the time that Buddhism came back into my life. And I really like Tara Brach because a lot of her focuses have to do with… finding the pain, finding the tension, finding that inner criticism. And just observing it with this like neutral curiosity. And like, observing something without any intention of changing it or controlling it allows that thing to change.
Ava: Yeah.
Jasper: And… that's what it felt like with my marriage falling apart. Was like, this is a natural composting that is supposed to be taking place.
So it wasn't very long after that, that Phoenix and I moved back to North Carolina. And, I began hosting these free queer meditation groups. I wasn't calling it Buddhism then, I was really focusing on creating meditation spaces that were neurodivergent friendly. So like stimming, fidgets, coloring, playing with Play Doh while we're meditating, all of that stuff.
And, yeah, so I wasn't calling it Buddhism, but it was still me bringing my Buddhist practices into my witchcraft. And then, where do I want to go from there? Let me just pause and think about it for a second.
Yeah, I think what I want to say is the, the story, the piece of the story that we're at right now is like four, four years ago, four or five years ago, I was having, I was hosting these meditation groups and, I was just beginning to have Queer Conjure come into my life. That's not what I was calling it at the time. I actually, the name Queer Conjure came to me right before I met you.
Ava: Wow. That's so interesting. Last night I was thinking about, I don't know what it was, maybe it was a dream, but like I was thinking about us being interviewed and talking about the name of Queer Conjure. And I was like, I wonder where Jasper, why Jasper came with the name Queer Conjure, literally last night. That's so interesting.
Jasper: Yeah. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know, I really think that Queer Conjure, the soul of Queer Conjure. I was really struggling, like lots of people at the very beginning of the pandemic to become an entrepreneur. And I knew I wanted it to be about witchcraft, but like, I tried all these things that weren't working and I was really trying to force them and the name Queer Conjure came to me. The being Queer Conjure came to me. And I started asking friends about it and they're like, ‘that's perfect, that's what you're supposed to be doing.’ And I really think it was like in my brain, it was like the very next day, but I'm sure it was like a couple months later or something that
Wow. I don't even remember how we were introduced to each other. I know you came over for game night, the first game night I had during the pandemic.
Ava: Yeah. So I remember them as Hair Daddy.
Jasper: Crane! Crane!
Ava: Yes, yes.
Jasper: Crane introduced us.
Ava: Yeah, they were cutting a friend at the time's hair. And then, cause I was looking for, I also wanted to like, grow my spiritual knowledge into like, something I could share with others. And I was telling this to my friend, and my friend was talking to the person who was cutting their hair, and they knew you.
Jasper: Yeah!
I remember that now, because Crane called me while I was driving one day, and was like, Is it okay if I give these baby queers your contact info? They're looking for, like, queer, spiritual, community, and I was like, 'yeah, bring in on!'.
Ava: Mm. Wow.
Jasper: Yeah, so like… I really, yeah, now that I'm thinking about it, it really feels like Queer, Queer Conjure came into my life. Because they also like, wanted to bring you in as well. I'm getting the shivers. Yeah, though, gods, now I forget why I started talking about that.
Ava: You're talking about how you're, you were, how you shifted from having these queer meditative practices and how that turned, like, with another wave of Buddhism in your life.
Jasper: Yeah, yeah, and then I started turning towards more of the witchy part. So I'm noticing as I'm telling this story that there's really an ebb, like there's… I'm, I'm visualizing the, the image that's coming to me right now is two rivers that, that intersect through different different points. So like, while those two, two rivers looked separate sometimes, they're the same water and they come together in really beautiful ways in my life. So I may not like, this moment that I'm in right now, where I describe myself as a Buddhist witch. Those two rivers might divert again or I might, you know, land in a different lake completely.
Somewhere, somewhere in North Carolina, there is a women's only Buddhist temple that I went to, I think twice because I was in this humanities class. The teacher was Buddhist too, so that's probably why she took us on a field trip there. But there was a, there was a huge statue of Quan Yin. And the statue was Quan Yin as a goddess. And she was standing on what looked like an ocean wave. And had a picture in her hand and she was pouring water into the mouth of this really big dragon at her feet.
And it really struck me that Buddhism had goddesses. Cause at the, at the time, witchcraft and goddesses were, you know, my witchcraft had a lot to do with goddesses at the time. It doesn't so much anymore. But..
Ava: The strength card, interestingly.
Jasper: Yeah! Quan Yin is totally the strength card. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Huh. Woo! That'll be a whole other episode, Ava. Why I started talking about Quan Yin, though, is that, a couple of years ago, I found this book called ‘Transcending.’ And it's trans Buddhist voices edited by Kevin Manders and Elizabeth Marston. And it's gorgeous. There's an essay in here called ‘What is a body anyway?’ And I am going to mispronounce this person's name, but, I think it is Thin, Thin, E N K E, so Anka, maybe?
So, they're talking about how the nature, nature is to change, which is a fundamental Buddhist teaching and how that feels very trans affirming. And there are… a lot of ways that Quan Yin is seen as a queer, trans deity. And in the research that I've done, I have noticed that some people use the word he, some people use the word she. Some people call Quan Yin a goddess. Some people call Quan Yin a Bodhisattva. And, my understanding of what Bodhisattva means is that when you reach this like nirvana enlightenment, you have a choice to either like stay in that, in that space or come back and continue to teach.
Ava: That happens to Jake the dog in Adventure Time, interestingly.
Jasper: I gotta watch this show some more, Ava. I was actually reading a graphic novel of Adventure Time to a child in my life recently and I was thinking of you.
So there's, yeah, so there's really like, still this question about Quan Yin’s gender embodiment. And then this author was talking about this question of like, how does Quan Yin speak the Dharma and carry out. And here it says ‘his’ work and the Buddha answers that 'if a living being needs to be saved by someone in the body of a Buddha, Quan Yin will appear in the body of a Buddha.' Buddha then lists more than 35 different manifestations of Quan Yin according to what is needed.
Some are male, some are female, some young, some old. They vary in class and station and occupation. Some are divine. Some are human. Many are non-human. Quan Yin will manifest in the form of a divine dragon if that's what you need. Compassion manifests in all possible forms in order to reach all beings because we exist in form.’ It's not that Quan Yin is really a man and puts on a dragon costume or Quan Yin really a woman with a hummingbird costume, for example.
Rather, Quan Yin manifests non duality, the way that everything in the universe is present in every cell, in every being, form, and boundlessness together.
Ava: Because what is a body anyway?
Jasper: Yeah, I'm like, I'm kind of half joking, but I feel like that's all I need to know about Quan Yin.
Ava: Yeah, period, yeah.
Jasper: So… the way that Quan Yin is described right there is how I have come to understand the deities I work with in witchcraft. That like, the compassion and the wisdom and the magic that I need is going to arrive in the form that works the best for me in that moment. And those forms are the deities.
Ava: Yeah, that's so cool.
Jasper: So… when I speak about my witchcraft being about animism and everything having a soul and everything is actually like an extension of the soul of the universe that's what we just said about Quan Yin, right?
So for my birthday, my new sweetie gave me a sculpture of a Buddha and a sculpture of a Quan Yin. And I've been moving them around my house like, like in the evening, I set up a little altar on my kitchen counter and move my Buddha over there, and I'll like, talk to them and tell them about my day, and sometimes they even pat their head. And my Quan Yin has been traveling around my house, like, either on my bedside table, cause they're smaller than the Buddha, or on my bookshelf, or like, at my desk if I'm having a hard day, you know, and I'll like, pat her on the head too.
So that doesn't feel like, it doesn't feel like I've left the goddess and gone to the Buddha. It just feels like this is a form of that boundlessness that is working for me at the moment.
Ava: Yeah. It's interesting. Two things came up for me when you were saying that one is that that's the way that you described your relationship with these statues. And like how they, what they symbolize to you is how I felt about fairies growing up.
Jasper: Yeah!
Ava: It could be anything, but I know what it is, and it was this being that is all encompassing. And to me it was like, you know, this acorn this time, or this stuffed animal, or this being. And I knew that there was an embodiment to them, like a soul. And I feel like that's exactly what it sounded like to me.
And secondly, I don't know if I ever spoke about this to you or even on the podcast, I might have, but one of the first, when I decided to like, put more focus on what spirituality meant to me, and cause I, up until I was like, 17, I was like, nah, I'm just atheist or agnostic or something, like, maybe there's something, I don't know.
But like, I felt like it was foolish or naive to believe in anything, because when I was so young, I was so, it was so true to me that there are fairies, that there are unicorns, that these things exist and people would, you know, kind of be like, you're going to have to grow up one day.
So I think I associated the two things with spirituality or religion. But when I first started to focus back on my own spiritual growth and awareness, I had, there was a night, it was like right before new year's where it was coming into 2020. There was a night where I couldn't fall asleep the whole night. And I had this really intense vision. It was like a waking dream almost of a Golden Being who had these like arms stretching over and touching everything so it was everything. But it was also itself and we were also it and I feel like that's exactly what that represents and what a lot of people who have this kind of spiritual awareness are connected to or view as a type of source or god or buddha or etc, etc.
Jasper: It's that thing about going beyond the words. Like what we're calling it doesn't actually matter.
Ava: Exactly. The body is just a form that it takes that we take.
Jasper: I think I've talked about my punch bowl theory before on the podcast, I'm not sure. So the way I, I do believe in reincarnation, I actually see it as a recycling process. It doesn't make any sense to me that human beings are not part of that recycling. Like the stuff that is in us, that boundlessness doesn't just like, it's not static, right?
So… I was actually telling my sweetie about this and she told me that it's very similar to some tantric beliefs. She's a tantric practitioner. And how I look at it, it's this very silly thing is that like it's a spiked punch bowl. So, so there's this giant cosmic punch bowl and when a form, when a body expires, the contents of that body are poured back into the punch bowl. And then whenever a new form arrives, what happens is that like the universe like opens it and pours some of that punch into it, like a glass and then sends it through the portal into this world.
Ava: I love that visual. That's really, like, a good visual to be able to actually interpret that in our, in our physical form brains. It reminds me too, of this meme that I saw of these two snowmen, and they're, one snowman said to the other one, was like, 'Do you think that when we die, we come back as, like, rain or snow or something?'
And they're like, 'No, we just die. It's just the end.' And then they, like, melt, you know. Everything else moves in this way, but we don't.
Jasper: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, I actually, this is a tiny bit off topic, but I also want to say that, like, that is what I believe. I also believe that I could be completely wrong, you know, like when I say I believe I don't have a static truth I'm going to hold on to no matter what.
In Wicca there's this idea of the summer lands. So the summer lands is like this way-station that you're at from one life to the next. And it's like it's like a pagan version of heaven, essentially.
And when you first put something into a compost pile, it stays in that form for a while. And so for me, the summer lands is when you just arrived to that cosmic compost and then the giant punch bowl is what happens when you, so I feel like that's just the way that beyond death makes sense to me.
Ava: Yeah, that reminds me of a visual. Have you seen Midnight Gospel?
Jasper: No, what's that?
Ava: I highly recommend it. It's like 10 animated episodes of the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. So they put an animation to it. Actually, Pendleton Ward animated it, who's the person who animated Adventure Time. It's really, really, really, really good.
And they basically they have Duncan Trussell, who like plays this character Clancy. So they take these interviews just from his podcast and they kind of put in some fillers so it seems like a show where like a little character doing his life, but he's like walking around interviewing people for his space podcast, and there's one episode where he's interviewing the soul bird of somebody stuck in a cycle of reincarnation, and in between each reincarnation they are being weighed. And weighed with like the, like a feather from a baby bird and the imagery is just really beautiful, but I highly recommend it. It's beautiful animation, also really cool guests.
And I also wanted to say that I, I really appreciate what you said about, you know, I also could be totally wrong because I think that's something that I really value in my spiritual practice and what I look for in other people who talk about spirituality is like, the humbleness of like, we are also human, like we could know, and we can believe, and we can have some truth for ourself, and we could be totally wrong. And within that it contains like a, a knowing that like, I have no right to enforce my will or my beliefs onto anybody else, because who am I, you know yeah.
Jasper: Yeah. Back to what you said a few minutes ago about really having a relationship with like unicorns and fairies and the people around you is like, you'll grow out of it. And then now as a grown up, you're like, is that actually a thing I need to grow out of, you know, or is it a thing I can return to?
I'm not sure if you said exactly that, but that's what I understood.
I was making bracelets as a form of magic with a friend, and now I have this little bracelet that has a lot of different kinds of labradorite and sandalwood beads, and on one side is a bead that is the face of the Buddha, and on the other side is this really cute chubby unicorn. And the unicorn is very, is very real to me right now because it is… a form I can use to understand this energy that is, or to like, relate to this energy that is very like, front and center in my life right now. I was in this program and I'm actually going to return to this program. I hope in the fall and winter called the Creativity Coven. And it is to, it's like these magical practices to water the seeds of whatever creative project you were doing at the time.
And… we were stepping into this meditation to get to know the soul of our project and I went in thinking I was going to meet the soul of Queer Conjure, because that's a project I wanted to work on. This is during the time that you and I were making our Lunar Ritual workbook. I actually, we finished that workbook while I was in this coven.
So when I went into this meditation who was waiting for me, there was no form. It was kind of like this… A sunset cloud, but not quite. I don't know how to explain it because the soul that I was meeting was like, 'f**k you, I don't need a corporeal form. Don't tell me what to do.' And they wouldn't give me a name either, but they felt very familiar and what they were communicating to me was like, we are not meeting for the first time. I am, I am who you are for forget. And I am who you need. So I've been calling it this soul of radical whimsy because… I also like fairies, unicorns, talking trees, singing flowers.
Were all something that I experienced and had a relationship with. And then I arrived at this point in my life where it was really important to me that people see me as like credible, logical and looking back now, I'm realizing that it's because of all of these wounds I have around being a magical person and a person with ADHD. Like, I have a lot of wounds around people believing I'm stupid, essentially. So it became really important for me to be perceived as credible. And because of that, I abandoned this goal of radical whimsy. And then they returned and they were like, this is actually where your power is. This, like this kind of the word fringe is coming up for me right now because that's a word that was used a lot in an interview I just did.
But like my magic isn't just like part of the fringe, it's beyond the fringe. So like trying to be credible to… normative, typical is not where my power is. It is way beyond that. I like that we have that in common.
Ava: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely also had so many choices that I made to try to be somebody credible.
There's, I'm sitting in front of an open door and there's like this curtain that's, it's just a bunch of strings so that flies don't come in and it's like, dancing. It's a little jazz finger. But it's like the wind is, yeah, exactly. It's like that being for sure. But I, I think oh, I totally lost that, made me lose my train of thought, unfortunately.
But that whimsy, or that trauma that, oh yes, I know, I got it back, and the curtain started going as I got it back too. That trauma that informs you to kind of try to conform, and then realizing that your power was within that kind of suffering that you may have self implicated in a way, like for me, that was trying to be a university student and like, you know. Like we were saying earlier, my beliefs do not mean that I believe other people need to follow the same way, but I think since I've left the university, I've realized like how much indoctrination the, the university system was like putting in me to, to, or that I was allowing it to kind of stipend my true self, but it reminds me of, I was recently actually watching an interview with a Buddhist monk saying, and I don't know if you, this is part of your Buddhist practice as well, but they were saying how they understand suffering as a means to learn deeper what your powers are and like what you are here to bring.
And they also were saying that like, you know, they understand that it's not like, ‘so bad things are going to happen to you, suck it up.’ But like, what is the diamond kind of forming under the pressure there? And so it's really interesting that we both had those kind of thoughts. Moments in our life of trying to stiffen that now we're in the space where we're both empowering that together.
Jasper: I'm getting the chills a little bit because this is exactly what you've been talking about, of like, being uncomfortable as a part of it. We're like, if we're comfortable all the time we become complacent. So like, comfort can be a respite, but it can't be a static state of being. That it's very much like the hanged one, like the hanged one has fully consented to being put in an uncomfortable position in order to further their wisdom.
Ava: Yeah. Yeah. Similarly, the nine of swords, is it where there's the person tied up and blindfolded, but their feet are in the stream and with the swords.
Jasper: I honestly can never remember if that's eight or nine. It is the eight of swords.
Ava: Eight of swords. Yeah. A similar but it's interesting because I think like when we've been in this conversation about that comfort, because I think a lot of times people don't want to radicalize or they don't want to change systems that we're in because of a comfort that they've accessed, but I'm, I even like, don't even think that it fits that it's comfort because I do believe that you can find a sense of like comfort in the way where you can feel held through change.
And it doesn't mean that it's not scary. Cause I think that comfortable and fear are like two different things. Cause I do think a lot of people think that they're comfortable in a society where, you know, maybe they're like a, privileged white family and they're like, ‘well, we don't need to change things because I'm benefiting from this,’ but like, are they because they still have to work a job they might not like or maybe manipulate people to get do well in their job or be hateful towards others in order to stay in this state of like success, quote unquote.
So yeah, so I, it's interesting this like, there's this challenge and then there's this comfort. I think they're like two different sides of this fear spectrum.
Jasper: Have you seen the movie Get Out? Yes. Okay, so. This is a spoiler for people who haven't seen Get Out. And if you haven't seen it, go see it right now. The podcast will be here. Go watch Get Out. Here's the spoiler.
I think I have to give a little bit of context. So. Get Out is about rich, white, old people going to these auctions and what they do is they, through the auctions, they buy these young black bodies and then they're. The person inside of the young black body is like smashed down and the old white person goes into that body.
And the main character is a photographer and the person who buys his body in the auction is blind. And, used to be a photographer, I think, or is a lover of photography.
Ava: Yeah.
Jasper: I think it was like an art. Yeah. So the main character is stuck in the chair and I feel like that white blind man being in the TV was like, kind of like his soul had gone, gone from his old white body to the TV and was about to go into the young black body. And the, the young black man asks, the question, ‘why black people? Why are you doing this to black people?’
And basically what the, what the TV person says is, ‘I don't actually care why it's black people. I just care that I'm benefiting from your eyes.’ And that's exactly what you were just talking about. You know, like that's like, I don't care if it's steeped in racism. I'm just comfortable benefiting from it, you know.
Ava: Exactly. And these are the people that society has decided it's okay to oppress and take from and take advantage of. And interestingly, I didn't even like think about this while watching it, one because I think I watched it in like 2018, but how through the TV makes so much sense because it's like our, how media makes us train our own brains to have a lens of whiteness, regardless of who we are, and like treat ourselves that way.
Jordan Peele, you genius you.
Jasper: Okay, well this is where the spoiler alert ends, welcome back from watching Get Out. I'm sorry. Wow. We went in lots of different directions today. I love it.
Ava: Thank you so much for sharing. I really loved hearing your journey and learning more about the stepping stones that brought you here.
Jasper: Thank you.
And I'm looking forward to where this new chapter of Buddhist witch takes me and my practice. So, there's a phrase ‘in perfect love and perfect trust’ that originated with Wicca. I think Doreen Valiente is, no, it was the Wiccan Rede or some, it doesn't matter. But anyway, there's this phrase of like, ‘we enter our covens in perfect love and perfect trust.’ And there's kind of no such thing and love and trust is always perfect. But, there's a phrase in Buddhism ‘to understand is to love.’ And I feel like those two things are very, very synonymous. And, it is one of the reasons that, and this is like a personal thing, but not that all of this has been impersonal. My most recent nesting relationship that fell apart. One of the questions I kept asking is like, ‘do you even understand me? How do you understand me? I don't feel understood.’ And then you know, Zen Buddhism came into my life and I kept hearing different variations of like, to understand someone is to love them.
Yeah, so that is, I want to just name that as like a really important part of my Buddhist practice right now is to, is to understand. Where like, who, what, where a person is because that, when I do that, it's impossible for me to continue participating in the oppressive system. Yeah, so I just want to name that brings us to this crossroads of like, liberation, queerness, and magic that we're trying to.
Ava: That really like, flipped the switch for me.
It's like, knowledge is not power, but knowledge is love.
Jasper: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, that feels like a good place to, is there any like, housekeeping thing you want to say before I hit not record?
Ava: You know, follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Substack, buy our workbooks if you're interested, Jasper's Teaching, Tarot Classes at Raven and Crone. Our Substack, I think, is our. It's like the best place to kind of stay in touch with us because there's no algorithm you just get emailed directly and there's some pretty juicy stuff on there.
I'm pretty proud of the meditation I just put up there and there's lots of like art and writing and readings and everything is accessible by Queer Conjure so, they'll be linked in the show notes.
Jasper: Yeah, our Substack is becoming our, our home base. Like we have all of the other things, but our Substack really is our home base. And one more plug I want to say is. If you go to tranzmission.org, and that's Tranzmission with a Z and you donate to them, if you send me a screenshot of your receipt, I give you a free tarot reading. Our email address is [email protected]. We love hearing from people. And if you have questions, please ask, maybe we'll answer them on the podcast. And, and if you want to share a story of how being a neuro-queer witch has affected your life, please share that with us. And we'd love to share it on the podcast too.
And… yay, we did it. We've made another episode!
Ava: Thank you!
–Don’t Fear the Mystery–
Jasper: There was this ridiculous movie in the 90s called Biodome with Pauly Shore in it. I'm a little annoyed that it's coming up in my head right now, but like, Pauly Shore throughout the whole movie, he's like,’ think globally, ask locally.’
Ava: That's so funny. My aunt, when my dad and mom first started dating, my aunt's always called my dad Polly Shore. Cause he had really long black curly hair at the time, thinking of my dad saying that is really silly. All right.
Jasper: Polly Shore, step aside.
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