This week’s guest needs no introduction... unless you’ve been living under a rock for the last 5 years. Love her or hate her, everyone’s got an opinion about Rachel Dolezal. But Matt isn’t interested in loving her OR hating her— he just wants to try to understand who she is and where she’s coming from. Their conversation covers a wide range of topics from the micro to the macro: what race means to her personally, the coded but powerful strains of racism still operating in the world today, what it’s like to be railroaded by the American media, and why everyone got so upset with her in the first place.

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