Ratio Talks

Maff Potts, our guest on Ratio Talks this week, has much to teach us about a powerful civil society and the potential of a relational social policy. We will hear more from him as the series progresses.

But today’s conversation focuses on his moral agency, his constant pushing against business as usual.

Maff stumbled into the so called helping professions, rapidly becoming a leader of powerful organisations and an advisor to government. 

But he came to understand that too often the professions didn’t help. They were missing something. For Maff, that something was being human.

Systems systematise. Many people using systems don’t fit. Many workers don’t fit. Maff didn’t fit.

After several frustrating years agitating for change from within Maff decided to move out. He left work, retreated to his garden shed, and tried to figure out what was going wrong, and how to put it right.

He concluded that the answer to our problems is each other. He started a movement, Camerados, dedicated to connection. The movement sets up public living rooms, spaces for strangers to meet. There are now 250 around the world.

In this episode Maff talks about the challenges of being the moral agent that made all this happen.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

When we think of moral agents, the mind goes first to the figureheads. Emmeline Pankhurst. Nelson Mandela. Dr King. But many suffragettes led the fight for fair votes, and the leadership of the anti-apartheid and civil rights movements was similarly broad based.

In this weeks podcast, Simon Duffy describes the background, characteristics and contributions of several leaders of the movement that has secured, is still securing, independence and autonomy for people with intellectual disabilities.

Simon has played a big part in this story. He was part of the coalition that, over a four decade period, fought for the rights of people with disabilities to move out of the warehousing of Dickensian institutions and into the community. And then when they were in the community, to release them from the grip of professionals who saw themselves as indispensable. 

Simon is part of the global Citizen Network that works on the principles of community, justice, inclusion, democracy and environment. Simon’s book with Wendy Perez Everyday Citizenship: Seven keys to a life well lived is available from Redpress. 

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal in the postscript reflects their views.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

In this phase of the podcast we are talking about moral agents, people who stand against the grain of orthodox thinking.

Sascha Haselmayer set out to write a book about quick fixes but came to the conclusion that social change takes time. 

He got to that conclusion by talking to moral agents around the world. Many of them call themselves social entrepreneurs. Listening to Sascha’s descriptions, they often sound like community organisers or social pedagogues. 

Their designation doesn’t matter. Sascha is telling us something about the roots of civil society led change, about how ideas emerge and develop outside of organisations, and before they get the backing of philanthropy or social investors. And decades ahead of any state involvement.

Sascha’s book is called The Slow Lane: Why Quick Fixes Fail and How to Achieve Real Change, and is available from good book shops. 

In his reflection on Sascha’s work, Pritpal S. Tamber referred to this article by Angela Glover Blackwell about the Curb Cut Effect in the Standford Social Innovation Review. She shows how laws and programmes designed to benefit marginalised groups end up benefiting all of society. 

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal in the postscript reflects their views.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

We are learning in this series on relational social policy that the seeds for the most significant changes in the world are sown not by the state or by private enterprise but by civil society. And not by civil society organisations, but by moral agents challenging the status quo, and building relationships with like minded people. 

This is how we got women’s suffrage. This is how secondary education came into existence. This is the story of equal rights for gay people. 

And it is at the heart of the overthrow of Serbian President Slobodan Milošević.

In this episode of Ratio Talks, Srdja Popović , one of the leaders of the movement known as Otpor, tells us about the strategy and tactics of civil society resistance. 

As Executive director of CANVAS and Practitioner Democracy Fellow at Karsh Institute of Democracy at the University of Virginia, Srdja sits between the growing body of evidence on non-violent struggle and activists in places like Iran, Russia, and Burma fighting for human rights.

Our resident critic Pritpal S. Tamber is on vacation, so his place is taken by Maff Potts from the Association of Camerados. Maff sits behind a movement of people around the world who believe that the answer to our problems is each other. As you will hear, Srdja’s ideas have been a major inspiration for the Camerados movement.

You will hear Srdja talk about the fifth People Power Academy that took place at the end of April. 2024. The proceedings are freely available for Day 1 Learning from the Frontline and Day 2 Technology and Disinformation. For those who prefer to read, Srdja’s bestseller Blueprint for Revolution: How to use rice pudding, lego men, and other non-violent techniques to galvanise communities, overthrow dictators, or simply change the world is available from all good bookshops.

The conversation between Michael and Maff in the postscript reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about the Association of Camerados here.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack and on Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

This year, Ratio Talks is exploring how a relational social policy can nurture the power of a big civil society. In recent episodes we have been considering the role of philanthropy.

Today, we talk to Romy Krämer from Germany. She helped establish and then shape the Guerrilla Foundation.

The foundation is the clearest example of next generation philanthropy. It is absolutely focused on civil society. It takes power away from rich donors and gives it to social activists, the moral agents who challenge the dominant order.

The Guerrilla Foundation is funding the next generation of suffragettes, civil rights activists, and climate agitators. The troublemakers operating outside of traditional civil society organisations.

It is the attention to the detail of how to shift power as much as the what of civil society led change that impresses.

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack and on Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

*Thanks to Adrian at Straw Hat Studios in Totnes for helping us out at short notice.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

The Ratio Talks podcast is currently exploring the potential for a ‘relational social policy’, one that seeks an optimal balance between two powerful forces, a big civil society and a small state. The ideas are summarised in this paper and this podcast. 

The first episodes in the series are considering the implications of a relational social policy for philanthropy. 

A fortnight ago we talked to Géraud de Ville de Goyet from Barking and Dagenham Giving, a new way of thinking about investing in place.

In this episode we talk to Jonathan Simmons, an entrepreneur who has switched his attention to social investment. 

In this episode, he talks about his partnership with Géraud and BD_Giving. Jonathan is looking to invest in local businesses that deliver a social good. 

The U.K. is often thought of as being at the forefront of social investment, but Jonathan has found it difficult to raise the money for his new venture. 

Jonathan’s story tell us a lot about the challenge of thinking differently about giving, and about widening our gaze from service providers to the full span of civil society.

Pritpal S. Tamber, international expert on community power joins the conversation at the end to draw out the main themes.

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack and on Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

Relational social policy seeks an optimal balance between two powerful forces, a big civil society and a small state. The ideas are summarised in this paper and this podcast. 

This month the podcast focuses on the implications of a relational social policy for philanthropy.

Géraud de Ville de Goyet is CEO of Barking and Dagenham Giving, an innovative approach to investing in place, guided by local people, with the needs of each community in mind, and geared for better systems. In the podcast, Géraud talks to Michael about successes and failures of putting local people at the heart of decision making, improving social infrastructure, and about his aspirations to move beyond participatory grant making. As usual, Ratio Talks resident critic Pritpal S. Tamber gives his reflections.

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack and on Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

Relational social policy seeks an optimal balance between two powerful forces, a big civil society and a small state. The ideas are summarised in this paper and this podcast. 

For the next month or so the substack and podcast series focuses on the implications of a relational social policy for philanthropy.

Derek Bardowell, CEO of 10 Years Time, starts the conversation with a reflection on his most recent book Giving Back, a personal memoir of the limitations of orthodox philanthropy, and a treatise on how to release its potential. 

At the end of the episode, Pritpal S. Tamber, Ratio Talks resident critic, gives his reflections.

Show Notes

In their conversation, Michael, Derek and Pritpal refer to:

* Felton Earls and Maya Carlson’s book Voice, Choice and Acton: The Potential of Young Citizens to Heal Democracy, Harvard University Press

* Thomas Piketty’s book Capital in the Twenty-First Century, Harvard University Press

* Matthew Desmond’s ground breaking article in the American Journal of Sociology in March 2012 Disposable Ties and the Urban Poor. This is the focus of next week’s contribution to the Relational Social Policy Substack

* Angela Glover Maxwell’s article How We Achieve a Multiracial Democracy was published in the Spring 2023 edition of the Stanford Social Innovation Review

* Susan Wolf Ditkoff and Abe Grindle’s article Audacious Philanthropy was published in the Harvard Business Review in October 2017, and is the focus of a future article on the Relational Social Policy Substack

* One of many obituaries to Chuck Feeney, who coined the phrase ‘giving while living’ is available on the Atlantic Philanthropies website

* The conversation with Katherine Zappone about the path to liberation and social change is available here 

* As is the conversation with Tony Iton about how communities in California are pursuing health equity through structural change

* Peter Townsend’s seminal book Poverty in the United Kingdom was published in 1979.

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Ratio Talks is available on Substack and on Apple Podcasts.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

What if most of the heavy lifting to keep us healthy and get us through tough times was done by civil society? Not the organisations of civil society, but the conversations, mutual aid and moral order we naturally create in our day to day interactions. What if civil society was the primary catalyst for social change? And what if civil society is at the heart of effective responses to natural disasters and pandemics? What would this mean for the state, services, and democracy?

Each Thursday, I talk on the Ratio Talks podcast with someone who has thought more about these issues than me, or reflect on the work of people who have given their lives to this way of thinking.

My starting point is this paper. It will get updated as I learn.

The series starts with the co-curator of the last series of the Ratio Talks podcast on community power, Pritpal S. Tamber. In this first podcast, Pritpal asks me about the paper sitting at the heart of this Substack, about the balance between civil society and state, and about the potential for a relational social policy.

You can hear in his voice that he is interested, that he sees potential in the ideas, but that they are a long way from being battened down.

If the conversation captures your imagination, check in here for another reflection next Thursday or/and subscribe to my Substack Relational Social Policy .

Show Notes

In my conversation with Pritpal we refer to:

* Relational Social Policy Paper, the basis of the new Ratio Talks series

* The early study Bringing Everything I Am Into One Place that led to the establishment of Ratio and the work described in the podcast

* Rebeca Sandu ‘s series of published papers on how a one-to-one relationship, independent of, or over and above any intervention, makes a difference to health. They are summarised in an overview called Relational Worker

* Robert Putnam and Shaylyn Romney Garrett’s book The Upswing, first published in 2020 is available from all good bookshops

* Aron Antonovsky’s work on how a sense of coherence about life contributed to better health. This idea is developed in the 1979 book Health, Stress and Coping

* Jürgen Habermas’s work has had a strong influence on my ideas. It is a wide opus but James Gordon Finlayson’s Habermas: A Very Short Introduction is a good place to start.

* Pro-bono Economics produced a valuable if narrow perspective on civil society and its economic value in Unleashing the Power of Civil Society in 2023

* The Lancet Commission on the Value of Death provides a good illustration of the effects of an imbalance between civil society and state, and a good summary of Allan Kellehear’s work on how civil society does 95 per cent of the support in the last years of life, and after death.

* Rebecca Solnit’s A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster was published in 2009.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song and image is by Luca Picardi.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thisisratio.substack.com

What if most of the heavy lifting to keep us healthy and get us through tough times was done by civil society? Not the organisations of civil society, but the conversations, mutual aid and moral order we naturally create in our day to day interactions. What if civil society was the primary catalyst for social change? And what if civil society is at the heart of effective responses to natural disasters and pandemics? What would this mean for the state, services, and democracy?

Each Thursday, Michael Little talks with or reflects on the work of someone who has thought deeply about these issues.

The series starts with the co-curater of the last series of the Ratio Talks podcast on community power, Pritpal S. Tamber. In this first podcast, Pritpal asks Michael about the paper sitting at the heart of this series, about the balance between civil society and state, and about the potential for a relational social policy.

Show Notes

In their conversation, Michael and Pritpal refer to:

Relational Social Policy Paper, the basis of the new Ratio Talks series 

The early study Bringing Everything I Am Into One Place that led to the establishment of Ratio and the work described in the podcast

Beca Sandu’s series of published papers on how a one-to-one relationship, independent of, or over and above any intervention, makes a difference to health. They are summarised in an overview called Relational Worker

Robert Putnam and Shaylyn Romney Garrett’s book The Upswing, first published in 2020 is available from all good bookshops

Aron Antonovsky’s work on how a sense of coherence about life contributed to better health. This idea is developed in the 1979 book Health, Stress and Coping

Jürgen Habermas’s work has had a strong influence on Michael’s ideas. It is a wide opus but James Gordon Finlayson’s Habermas: A Very Short Introduction is a good place to start.

Pro-bono Economics produced a valuable if narrow perspective on civil society and its economic value in Unleashing the Power of Civil Society in 2023

The Lancet Commission on the Value of Death provides a good illustration of the effects of an imbalance between civil society and state, and a good summary of Allan Kellehear’s work on how civil society does 95 per cent of the support in the last years of life, and after death.

Rebecca Solnit’s A Paradise Built in Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise in Disaster was published in 2009.

The conversation between Michael and Pritpal reflects their views.

Subscribe to Ratio’s Newsletter here and find out more about Pritpal S Tamber’s work here.

Get in touch with us any time by sending an email to [email protected].

Ratio Talks is produced with the help of sound designer Nik Paget-Tomlinson and creative director Richard De Angelis. The show’s theme song is by Luca Picardi.