“Agents want ease, they want relationships and they want to be part of something bigger than themselves.”

That’s how John puts it. And that comes from hundreds of conversations with agents, building his revshare group and hosting his podcast, Real Estate Survival Guide.

But what’s behind the shift?

Part of it’s generational, part of it’s the last few years…

the economy

the uncertainty

the loneliness epidemic

the search for real, authentic community

But this newsletter is about marketing and content strategy for real estate leaders.

So I’m going to focus on the marketing opportunity…

If the industry is missing some of the real motivators that drive agents…leaders who speak deeply to those motivators have a chance to win BIG with younger agents.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

The Best Way to NEVER Get What You Want Is to Ask For It DirectlyMy [current] lender, had just been commenting on my stuff for a few weeks, [things] like ‘Congratulations, great work!’ So the minute the crap hit the fan, [I reached out] for help…She's probably made $50,000 in two years because of it. She didn't inbox me and say, ‘Can I tell you about this amazing opportunity?’ She didn't say, ‘I'd like to grab coffee with you.’ She supported my stuff.” - John Schuchman

Just like how the lender treated him, John is finding that a relationship-first approach works best in agent attraction.

Not because it’s warm and fuzzy, but because leading with relationships aligns with one of the key motivators for younger agents.

“There's one percent out there that are in the inboxes, annoying people, and they kind of ruin it for the rest of us. I'm not that person…So my goal is to just build relationships with people, just care genuinely about people."​ 

So how do you infuse that into your content?

Here are a few Action Steps:

Share stories of how you’re helping agents with NON-business goals - Don’t just tell agents you care about them, SHOW them with documented action

Collaborate with other leaders to create content - Show agents who YOUR key relationships are

Share the spotlight - Put your agent or client success stories front and center

Agents Are Traumatized by Pitch Slaps Before They Even Get Licensed

“That's kind of the new agents, where they feel like they're just waiting to be sold…Everyone is waiting for the pitch slap.” 

Between all the ads for pre-licensing programs, to ads for marketing, software and coaching, new agents are coming in jaded and cynical. 

AI has exploded the number of cold emails and DMs, too. As a result, we’re all more guarded, more insular, more reliant on our social network and warm intros.

How do you respond? Stop pushing, and start building an audience with your content. 

It’s much better for agents to feel like they’ve discovered you, rather than feeling like you are pushing yourself at them.

Here are a few Action Steps:

Niche down your content - Speak more deeply and specifically to your ideal agent, so your content stands out to the right agents.

Be on the Platforms Agents Use Daily - Looking to attract younger agents? Use TikTok or YouTube Shorts. Going after top producers in their 40s? Use Facebook and Insta, with long form videos on YouTube. 

Run Ads on Niche Podcasts & YouTube Shows - Show hosts are always open to ways to monetize their shows. Rather than spending on Meta ads, where you compete with the biggest brands and the biggest budgets, go niche. Go right to the leaders who have audiences you want to reach, and offer to pay for a package of 30 second ads, or email placements. Start slow, build the relationship.

Agents are Looking for Culture Fit More Than Traditional Factors.

“I found this with my clients and now with agents, People want to be around winners. So brands out there, now don't do it in a cocky way, but please on your social media, please share your wins. We want to see them. I'm much more aligned to connect with a brand or an agent in this case. I want to be around winners."​

Culture fit isn’t just for physical offices. This goes for virtual brokerages, teams, coaching firms, even SaaS. 

The more agents can see themselves thriving in your culture, the more they’ll be open to your offer.

And the only way agents can see that from the outside is in the content you publish. 

So here are a few Action Steps…

Spotlight agents from a range of demographics

Spotlight different sizes of wins - small and large

Spotlight the emotional rewards - the thrill of victory, not just the numbers or the facts

A bonus takeaway was this nugget from John on podcast pitches he gets…

Want to Get on More Podcasts? Stop Asking & Start Supporting Their Work.

“The best way to never be on my podcast is to ask. Instead, what I like and appreciate is when someone says, ‘Hey, I liked your episode about the….’ What I really think is if people want to win, go and support the people that you want to be around."

If you want to get in front of podcast and YouTube audiences, or even Facebook Group communities, the landscape has completely shifted. Even the smallest podcaster gets bombarded by pitch emails.

You can’t spin up an outreach program and blast out ‘compliment emails.’ 

Authentic compliments can’t be systematized and scaled up.

Today, getting access to niche audiences is all about relationships, warm intros, and…genuinely seeking to serve those audiences and their leaders.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 

I had a hard time condensing this down to just a few non-obvious insights. There were a lot of great nuggets John has picked up in all his conversations with agents!

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing about agent’s motivators.

Steal This:

What podcaster or YouTube creator would you genuinely promote for no other reason than you like what they’re doing? Go post about them on social, or share some of their content with your email list. Here’s the key…do it with ZERO expectation.

Quick Links & Resources

Real Estate Survival Guide - John’s podcast and membership site

Connect with John on Facebook or Instagram

Massive thanks to John for sharing all his insights! 

He talks to so many Gen Z agents that I really enjoyed getting that perspective. 

Make sure to connect with John on Facebook, and share his podcast with agents in your world who might enjoy it! 

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS When you’re ready, here’s one way we can help…

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, we’ve been the content team behind many of your fellow real estate coaches, speakers and authors. 

We turn conversations into newsletters, videos and podcasts, all with zero hassle. With our system, that content creates real authority, influence and impact for our clients.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

The Real AI Opportunity in Real Estate w/Brandon Doyle

For a tech-savvy agent, YouTuber and consultant to tech companies, you’d think Brandon would be “all in” on creating content with AI. Quite the opposite.

“AI is great for improving your workflow and saving some time, but if you’re using [AI] for the actual creation, you’re doing it wrong. You’re just creating garbage and noise and in the long run, it’s going to hurt you more than it helps.”

There’s some excitement around AI voice agents for calling leads. But some are saying they’d probably only use it for dead leads.

So if the big opportunity in AI isn’t in revolutionizing how we market and sell, what IS the big opportunity?

Let’s get to the…

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Solve Boring Problems

I think the biggest problem in real estate is actually duplication of entry and…adoption... A lot of times with [tech] tools, people get frustrated because they…go in and do something and they’re just checking a box of something they already did.” - Brandon Doyle

Data entry. That’s a really boring problem. But if AI can solve it, it makes adoption easier and opens the door for new tools to emerge. And making adoption easier is critical because…

Agent Churn Can Break Your Entire Business Model.

“They [tech companies] don’t factor their churn rate…I’ve seen companies where the client acquisition cost is higher than the lifetime value of the client. And they don’t even understand what their lifetime value is because…it’s two different buckets for them. They’ve got marketing, sales and then client success all operating separately.”

Think this only applies to tech companies?

I’ve seen this same issue with coaching and memberships. When all the focus is on getting new agents in, it’s easy to forget about churn.

Whatever estimates you have of lifetime value per agent, it’s probably good to cut them in half. Maybe more.

This is why so many tech companies, and even some coaches, prefer to sell to big brands and indie brokers.

“I mean, selling [tech tools] direct to agent is just a terrible, terrible business model. They expect the world and they don’t want to pay you for it. And they’re just going to quit. The average agent won’t even go 90 days.”

So how do we deal with churn?

Price Out the Problem Agents.

“Price accordingly. Just price some of these people out of the market through exclusivity. Curaytor, when they first came on the scene, was a good example. It was like, ‘Well, we’re so exclusive, we only work with whatever number of people,’ and then [agents] kind of self- select.”

In other words, start by selling to agents who are ambitious, advanced and affluent.

Establish your market there, build something awesome, get profitable. Then you can move downmarket and offer a limited or mass-market version.

The side benefit is that working with the ambitious and already successful raises your game. You end up creating a better solution to the problem to meet their high expectations.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing…especially when it comes to agent churn in areas like coaching or memberships.

Ask This:

What are the early WINS you can get agents after they take your offer?

What can you systematize?

What can you make easier and seamless?

The better answers you have to those questions, the less churn you’ll have in your offers.

Quick Links & Resources

Brandon’s website

Brandon’s books

Brandon’s YouTube channel - for smart home tech and home tours

Connect with Brandon on Facebook and Instagram

Brandon was up for a free-range conversation, and we definitely had that! So make sure to listen to the full conversation, connect with Brandon on social, and keep him mind for speaking gigs or consulting for tech companies.

Talk soon,

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS When you’re ready, here’s one way we can help…

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, we’ve been the content team behind many of your fellow real estate coaches, speakers and authors.

We turn conversations into newsletters, videos and podcasts, all with zero hassle. With our system, that content creates real authority, influence and impact for our clients.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Do what other leaders won’t do. That’s where the big opportunities live.

That’s what I took away from the chat with Marki. Well, that and my cheeks hurt from smiling and laughing.

You might know Marki from…

* her years of pro speaking on AI and social selling

* her podcast and membership

* Hosting the NAR Drive podcast

If so, you also know she’s going to be 100% herself, in any situation.

So she didn’t hold back on where the industry is missing it, and how that creates niche opportunities to build a loyal audience of agents.

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Most leaders are missing agents’ REAL problems.

“You need to be where they are…And you have to talk about the pain. Probably where people are missing the mark is they’re storytelling and the true pain is off. I understand our pain. I’ve lived this pain…” - Marki Lemons Ryhal

From menopause and dental work to the 2x strength lenses in her glasses, Marki is not shy about sharing. Which creates a completely different level of connection and loyalty with her audience.

“We are an industry of people who lack medical insurance, but we’re also an industry….of over 60% women with the #1 age bracket being 50-55 years of age…You want to know why the women love me? Because I’m talking ‘all day’ problems.” -

When big-name leaders and brands don’t speak to the everyday problems agents face, it creates a huge opportunity for independent coaches, authors and speakers. If you can be radically authentic without oversight, push that advantage to the limit.

Most leaders are ignoring differences in abilities and learning styles.

“We’re not addressing in real estate, What percentage [of agents] are neurodivergent learners? ADHD, dyslexia, different learning styles? They might have been labeled as being difficult or people don’t want to work with them because how they learn is totally different.”

It makes sense that real estate might be over-represented with neurodivergent learners, ADHD and dyslexia, compared to the general workforce. Real estate is flexible and anyone can learn at their own pace. There’s no boss looking over our shoulder.

But as of now, very few leaders are speaking to these agents directly, or repurposing content for their needs. Another niche opportunity waiting for the right leader to step in and serve.

Leaders aren’t teaching agents how to “Pull Back the Bow”

That’s the grind work of building new skills, new systems or learning new tools. (credit my friend Hank Avink for that term).

Marki faced it this past fall, grinding through the scholarship application process for her college-bound son. She even built a whole AI system to get through it faster and submit more applications. The result? Over $1 MILLION in merit-based scholarships.

Ok, so that’s the grind…the pulling back the bow. But who wants to hear about that?

The opportunity is in being honest about the grind. Honesty gets you loyalty.

What do agents need to DO to really benefit from your offer?

Where do they need to “pull back the bow?”

Because if you’re not honest about that, even when agents buy, most of them won’t implement. So they get no benefit, and you get no testimonials, case studies, word of mouth or loyalty.

So how do you sell agents on the grind of new tools, skills and systems?

Help them see the backend payoff…clearly enough…that they’ll sacrifice short-term revenue to get it.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Ask This:

What pain are you talking about….that other leaders or brands won’t touch? Not business pain...life pain.

Quick Links & Resources

Marki’s website

Marki’s podcast

Marki’s Speaker Page - a killer page from a veteran speaker, worth checking out if you want more speaking gigs.

Marki’s Facebook

I love talking to Marki, she’s been in my life as a client and friend for many years now, and she never fails to bring incredible energy wherever she goes.

Watch out for her on the speaking circuit, and send her a referral to any local or state association who’s looking for a speaker!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS If you’re winning the game in business and life, and now you want to make an IMPACT on agents, check out our agency, MicroFamous.

We’re the content strategy and production team behind many of your fellow real estate leaders, coaches, speakers and authors. And if you’re driven to make an impact, we want to help.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Levi and his partner have built 2 YouTube channels with a combined 60k subs. So when he says newer YouTubers have the advantage…that they’re building audiences even faster…that catches my attention.

What are they doing differently, and what are they incorporating into their own growth strategy?

Let’s get into it.

Start With a High Performing Format.

“Look outside of your market. I did a video….based off of the idea of Mr. Beast’s video…even Mr. Beast is like looking outside of his market... He didn’t find that inspiration from another YouTuber. He found it from Netflix.”

“Young guns, like 20s and 30s... They’re able to look at [YouTube], and they understand it. They’re saying, ‘Okay, I’m just gonna look at all the best performing videos’..And then they just recreate those. And you’re seeing new creators get traction pretty quickly.” - Levi

A high performing format is a proven attention hack. A glitch in the matrix. Something about that format speaks to people on a primal level. Using a high performing format instantly raises your potential growth.

Example: 3 of the top 8 videos on the coaching channel play on the same title format.

Here’s another funny example of videos I’ve seen in my feed in the last month or so…

Notice the bottom 2 have MILLIONS of views. They’re also 2-3 years old. In other words, this thumbnail is such a powerful visual format that it’s STILL working today.

But there’s a mindset challenge here. Many of us are in real estate because we have an independent streak. We’re driven to be original, but YouTube doesn’t reward originality. YouTube rewards what works.

Put Most of Your ENERGY into Customizing the Format.

YouTube formats are like vehicles…and ideas are the fuel.

Powerful ideas are like replacing unleaded with racing fuel.

Once he has the format, Levi goes looking for ways to tweak it for his audience.

Drawing topic ideas from everywhere…random chats at events, being out in his community, news, social media.

However, he also gave a word of caution...

“Make sure you stay in alignment with what you cover and what you talk about. You don’t want to just go right off into left field.”

Instead, look for ways to pair the high performing format with a high performing topic.

Something your audience is already interested in. A topic that speaks deeply and specifically to them. Their needs, desires and values. Their phrasing, emotion and nuance.

For a creator like Kallaway, this speaks deeply to his audience. He was also smart about putting Hormozi in the upper right of the thumbnail. Capitalizing on Hormozi’s $100M launch.

Use AI to Accelerate the Research & Scripting

“Within three minutes, you can have a whole video script. And before, that would probably take me 30-45 minutes alone, just to piece all that together. And that was…just trying to get the bullet points!”

Brainstorm with your favorite AI tool. Use it to create unique hooks and angles, question your biases and assumptions, press you to sharpen your ideas.

Then have AI write the first draft script. Once you tweak the script for yourself, load it back into AI. Have the AI analyze the final version and draw lessons it can apply to future scripts, or spit out a full custom prompt for your next script.

The goal here is to create a script and outline that blends the high performing format with a powerful idea for your niche. All in a way that allows you to speak in your authentic voice.

Let’s sum up…

Attention Hacking on YouTube

* Start with a high-performing format from another niche

* Find a powerful idea that speaks to your niche - invest as much energy as it takes

* Use AI tools to speed up research and scripting

Want to go deeper? Click above to listen to the full chat with Levi, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Any YouTuber creators you’d like me to interview, I’m all ears as well.

Steal This:

ChannelStudio.ai - Levi and Travis’ go-to tool for YouTube analytics and insights.

Quick Links & Resources

Passive Prospecting YouTube Channel - Levi and Travis’ coaching channel

PassiveProspecting.com - Home for all Levi and Travis’ coaching and services

Living in Dallas - The channel that started it all

Levi on Instagram

Massive shoutout to Levi, what he and Travis have done is super impressive. Make sure you’re connected with Levi and connect him to any podcasts or YouTube shows that might want to feature him as a guest!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can help…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into systems.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, we’ve been the content team behind many of your fellow real estate coaches, speakers and authors. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Scott Richard isn’t selling AI like the rest of the industry. The broker-turned-tech-founder is allergic to hype.

And after scratching his own itch, he’s built tools that are so useful, agents and brokers sell themselves.

Scott’s playbook is all about authenticity, live demos, and getting insanely specific about who he’s talking to. Here’s how he’s actually getting agents’ attention in a market where everyone’s been pitched to death.

Stop Trying to Convince Agents of Anything.

Let your tool do the talking…and literally, the showing.

Scott’s AI tool came from solving his own brokerage headaches, not from some mastermind funnel. So he ditches the sales pitch and offers a screenshare.

“I just say, Let me show you. And I turn it on and let them test it, and they’re blown away... I’m not trying to sell you something. I’m actually trying to help the industry. And that’s a totally different approach to how this came about.

Live screen-sharing demos…Raw, unscripted, no pitch deck…That’s how Scott gets people to lean forward.

It makes agents and brokers feel like Scott isn’t selling them at all.

He’s just sitting on the same side of the table, showing them what he’s built.

And because value is so obvious, the sales process is basically: “Here’s the next step if you want it.”

Your Content Isn’t Specific Enough for the AI Era.

“People don’t quite realize...the amount of content that’s gonna get put out....From a real estate business standpoint, I’m [thinking], Okay, how do I USE it?

How do I adopt it without losing the authenticity of the message? And I think the difference is using the tools to convey a message and be very specific on the message you’re conveying.” -

As an example, Scott is baking personalization into his AI tool.

“I think the future of where this is going…tools that can answer at your level. So when [users] ask a question, [AI tool] gives an answer at their level and it aligns to them.”

His tool isn’t just “AI for real estate.” His AI tool answers compliance and business questions in the voice the user needs to hear:

* For brand new agents, it “talks like a coach,” giving encouragement and clear action steps.

* For managing brokers, it “talks like a risk consultant,” focusing on liability and policy.

When AI can personalize to this degree, agents’ expectations are going to skyrocket. Generic marketing won’t cut it. The era of “just flood the zone with content” might be over.

Apply Emerging Tech to Problems You Understand DEEPLY.

Scott’s blueprint:

* Relentless specificity in content, audience, and demos.

* Relentless focus on the actual problem he solved for himself as a broker.

When you ARE the target market, you know when you’ve built something truly useful.

So useful that your sales process can basically be, “Here, let me show you…”

Want to go deeper?

Click to listen to the full conversation with Scott.Or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Ask This:

Where can I replace “Here’s why you should buy...” with “Here, let me show you?”Who am I actually talking to…and does my content speak to their level?

Quick Links & Resources

Scott Richard’s website:

AI-Powered Real Estate

Big shoutout to Scott for sharing what he’s doing! I love the raw, authentic approach to sales, and the relentless drive to build something truly useful…not just profitable for himself. Make sure you connect with Scott if you’re not already!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Ray Wood has been around long enough to know what works with agents, and what doesn’t.

The Aussie-Canadian direct response veteran behind AI Ad Machine has used every outreach tactic in the book. Cold calls, one-on-one calls, high-end sales presentations.

But he’s finding that sometimes, agents want less personal attention.

Here’s what Ray’s learned about reaching agents in 2025, plus the testing strategy that’s letting him run 100+ ad variations simultaneously.

Here are the Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation…

Group-First, Low-Pressure Offers are Beating 1:1 Calls Right Now.

“I reach out [to agents] and say, ‘Hey I’m doing this and this, why don’t we jump on a call?’ ...May or may not get a response. If I say I’m doing a free training...I get much more buy-in.”

It’s high-leverage, maximized opt-ins, and he can qualify leads by engagement. Reminds me of how Josh Smith’s virtual workshops are performing well for him this year.

Experiment with Newsletter Platforms to Get More Results from Your Email List.

“So what I’ve done is I’ve created some content and then built a link, which has got a [Substack] subscribe button and I’ve sent that out to my list. I think in two weeks, I’ve had a couple of hundred people opt-in from a 28K email list. For normal day-to-day, I’m using Kajabi. I’m familiar with it and that’s where all my contacts are. So that’s what works for me.” - Ray Wood

Still early days, but I love that he’s testing this. Newsletter tools like Substack or BeeHiiv tend to have better deliverability over tools like Kajabi. Any tool that caters to the info marketing or course creator niche will have above-average unsubscribe rates, which hurts deliverability for all their users.

Ruthless A/B Testing Beats Intuition Every Time

Ray’s tool runs 40-100 different ads simultaneously and kills the losers within 10 days.

“With the Ad Machine, I can run a set of 40, 50, 100 different ads. And after 10 days, I can monitor which image is working, which copy’s working, which headlines working... and then I can continually focus on that”.

It’s a good lesson for any leader…Never fall in love with your own messaging ideas or clever copy.

It’s better to create 100 imperfect campaigns and let agents tell you which ones work. Double down on what works, and ruthlessly cut the rest.

So let’s sump up the core principles I take from Ray’s playbook:

* Test everything, assume nothing - Run multiple variations simultaneously and let data decide

* Lower the barrier, raise the value - Group trainings feel safer than sales calls while delivering the same qualification

* Own your audience - Build on platforms where you control the relationship

Want to go deeper?

Click to listen to the full conversation with Ray Wood. Or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

What’s working for tech founders and innovators to reach agents?Where could they sharpen their messaging and get more effective?

Ask This:

When was the last time I tested my assumptions about my audience?

What simple test could I run that would generate useful, non-obvious insights to improve my marketing?

Quick Links & Resources

Ray Wood’s AI Ad Machine

Thanks so much to Ray for opening up his marketing playbook. Make sure you reach out and connect with him, nothing beats his Aussie positivity and direct response mentality!

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Facing critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy? Click below to learn about working with me in a 90-Day Strategy Sprint.

Mike’s a self-admitted data guy. Not a sales or marketing guy.

But he did 3 really smart things.

And he ended up building a category king business and getting acquired by HousingWire.

Here are the…

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Behavior Signals Mindset.

“Those are our customers, you know, they’re investing in their business. They’re paying for a CRM, they’re buying digital ads, they’re farming. If they’re investing in their business, then they understand the power of using market data in that communication to grow the business. That was really the key distinguishing characteristic we noticed” - Mike Simonsen

The big challenge to growing Altos was that agents care more about leads and clients than data.

Like any tech founder, Mike was super excited about his product. But he learned pretty fast that his market wasn’t “every agent.” Only agents who had the mindset to invest in their business could see the value prop.

Which led to the next challenge. He couldn’t buy a list of “agents who have the mindset to invest in their business.”

Mike’s breakthrough was that behavior signals mindset.

Agents who showed up to tech conferences and camps were serious about their business, and open to new technology and tools. By showing up in those places, Mike put Altos in front of a hyper-targeted group of A-list prospects.

But at some point Mike had to break out of those early adopters. Which meant the challenge shifted back to reaching the average agent or broker. That’s where Mike hit on something I really want to emphasize.

Reframes Unlock Sales.

“We had to learn how to be top of funnel lead systems and lead nurture over time... And I’m a data software guy…now all of a sudden I’m talking about lead conversion.

Mike reframed data as a new competitive advantage…in agent’s marketing and in their listing presentation. Just by subscribing, any agent could be the “local expert” to their sphere, no number crunching required.

Taking an offer that isn’t naturally top-of-funnel and MAKING it top-of-funnel is impressive. It’s a very powerful reframe.

Has it been overused since then by everyone who sells to agents?

Of course. Because it works.

“Even if you ask people like, why do they buy Altos today? They’ll probably say, ‘We love the data,’ but what do they need to do with their business? Yeah. They need to grow their business.. They need to get leads in the door. They need to nurture those into clients. And so you’ve got to connect that from A to B.”

There are reasons people say they buy, and the reasons they actually buy.

The right reframe hits at the actual reasons people buy, which is why it unlocks new levels of sales.

The Right Reframe Forces You to Raise Your Game.

“You know, we had to build things that were [new]. You got to email the reports out automatically. You’ve got to track the followup. We had to build all of those things.”

There’s an interesting trap Mike could have fallen into.

The reframe is brilliant. Agents agree with the reframe. Sales picks up.

And then…the product doesn’t deliver, and agents cancel.

Mike didn’t fall into that trap. He improved the product to match the reframe.

Reframes Change Lives.

Just look at books. Some of the most impactful business books are built on reframes.

* Millionaire Real Estate Agent - “You don’t have to sell homes forever. You can exit production…and we have the model to follow.”

* 80/20 Principle - “Most things aren’t important. Focus on the “vital few” and you’ll get 10x results with far less effort.”

* Profit First - “You don’t need to change, you need a different system around you. So you can be yourself and still hit your financial goals.”

Profit First is one of the most powerful reframes I’ve ever come across. If you haven’t picked it up in a while, go read the first couple chapters. Absolute genius.

Here’s the thing about a great reframe…Once people hear it, they can never un-hear it.Especially if you have proof to back it up.

If I were advising a leader or company bringing a brand new concept to real estate agents, I’d be asking myself “Where’s the reframe?”

Agents have lots of problems. They know they have those problems. They’re bombarded with ads and offers to solve those problems.

And yet agents allow many of those problems to go on for years, even decades. With little or no effort to solve them.

Unless you get agents to see their problem in a new way…don’t expect them to understand your new concept or buy immediately.

When I first worked with Jeff Cohn on the Team Building Podcast and Elite Real Estate Systems, we had to attack the idea that successful teams only worked in huge cities like Dallas or Atlanta.

We created this reframe: “You can build a dominant real estate team in virtually ANY market in the country. We did it in Omaha, NE and we’ll share all our systems with you.”

Once we’d established that, we attacked other common objections with this reframe: “You can build a real estate team that nets you $1 million a year and runs without your personal production or relying on rockstar agents.”

Jeff didn’t just throw content out there. He published hyper-specific content…built around highly targeted reframes. And that content generated demand for Jeff’s systems and created millions in coaching revenue.

Side note…PLACE is a new concept. What determines whether it will work?

Their ability to sell the idea of “home ownership experience.”

A new category that wraps up many different services.

Services where consumers already have specialized categories in their mind.

That’s going to take a powerful reframe.

Facing critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy? Click below to learn about working with me in a 90-Day Strategy Sprint.

To go deeper with Mike Simonsen: Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Mike also shares the hilarious story of how he made one of his first sales, and how he overcame his ego to jump on YouTube.

Ask This:

When you describe the problem you solve…to an ideal prospect…are they startled? Shocked, even? Do they leave that conversation forever changed?

Quick Links & Resources

Follow Mike on X (Twitter)

Altos Research

Recommended Books for Ideas on Reframing:

Play Bigger

22 Immutable Laws of Marketing

Positioning

Mike was such a good sport to say Yes to an interview. We’d never been introduced and he was super open and generous. Make sure to follow him on X to see what he’s up to since the acquisition of Altos. I know he’s got something exciting to share when the time is right!

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Here are two ways I can serve you…

90-Day Strategy Sprint - We’ll work together to make the critical decisions on your marketing and content strategy. Then we’ll translate those decisions into new rituals and habits, and get your entire team on board.

Done-for-You Content Service - From Michael Maher and Lars Hedenborg to Jeff Cohn and Marki Lemons-Ryhal, my content team has served many of your fellow real estate leaders. We turn conversations into newsletters, podcasts and videos, all with zero hassle.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

This platform is about the non-obvious, the subversive, the counterintuitive stuff.

That’s where Jess really stands out.

We’re talking…

* screenshotting troll comments and sharing them openly

* posting on IG for years without selling anything

* breaking the model of “accountability” coaching

She also runs ListingsLab from a small Caribbean island.

Is she the Bond villain of real estate coaching?

Too generous and fun to be a villain…

But she just might be the next model of real estate coaching.

She sells systems and permission. Not butt-kicking accountability.

She’s raw, irreverent, and unapologetic.

In everything from her content to coaching.

All underpinned by deep thinking and unorthodox strategy.

Let’s get into it...

Non-Obvious Insights from our Conversation:

Buy a Dinosaur Puppet. Talk to the Puppet.

“The opposite of love online isn’t hate, it’s indifference…So I’m not trying to be clickbaity. I’m not trying to rage bait or anything like that. I’m just constantly forming my own opinions about why we do the things that we do, backed up with data.”

Ok so the dinosaur puppet…Jess bought it specifically to “conversate with on my Instagram in terms of dinosaur real estate agents.”

With almost 90k followers, she knows it will rub some people the wrong way, but that’s the point. By creating a strategic enemy…and quickly alienating agents who don’t like her style…Jess magnetically attracts those who will.

This is where many leaders will miss the boat on “authenticity.”

It’s not about using more slang in your marketing copy, or sharing your hobbies or interests on Insta. Sure, that’s better than stodgy corporate content.

But the next model of coaching pushes that much further.

Be so radically authentic that you quickly and gladly alienate the wrong agents.

To the right agents, that’s magnetic.

Turn Internet Trolls into Permission Content.

“Cold traffic is a nasty place on the internet, right? But I think the comments are hilarious. So I do my version of Mean Tweets... I screenshot all of them. I send them to my friends…There’s an element of permission [agents] are looking for. We’re all getting trolled... If I’m really transparent about it and we can have a laugh over it…maybe it’s not such a big deal.”

If you’ve ever coached agents on creating content…you know the frustration.

But what if every missed deadline, every unposted video, are just outer signs of an inner fear of being visible?

Traditional “butt-kicking accountability” coaching doesn’t have a great solution for that.

By showing that Jess doesn’t care about trolling comments, she gives agents permission to not care, either. Even to share their troll comments and laugh together.

That’s a very different approach.

Show Up & Serve…Long Before You Ask for the Sale.

“Now I have this untapped audience on Instagram that I’m starting to pull business from. And I’m finding that... because I haven’t sold so heavily to them, they’re a lot more open to being sold to at this point.“

While selling heavily on other platforms, Jess showed up on Instagram for years. No pitching, just being herself and sharing content.

I would tell any leader to do the same…with one caveat.

You need the right kind of offer.

Leaders are telling me they’re hearing lots of exhaustion, hesitation and self-doubt. Agents have seen so much fake urgency, artificial scarcity, and exaggerated promises. They’re doubting everyone, even themselves and their own decision making.

So whether the offer is implementation, customization, or just more access…

Agents need a plausible, structural reason to believe your offer is 10x more valuable than the content you give away. That value must be baked into the structure of the offer itself.

Want Attention? Stop Watering Yourself Down.

When asked what topics were getting her traction with agents…

“Just say the things you’re afraid to say... say the things that you think, and then you vanilla down before you spit them out.”

I’ve asked many leaders that question. No one gave an answer quite so blunt and insightful.

It’s not easy to cut through the noise online. I talked about that in MicroFamous, which came out 5 years ago.

My solution was to use content to deliver an idea so compelling, so startling, so arresting and attention-grabbing, that once prospects encounter it, they can never unhear it. They must learn more. And I still believe that’s the best approach for MY kind of clients.

Jess is running her own version of that playbook.

Sharing bold and polarizing opinions…formed from deep thinking and daily coaching…delivered in her unique style.

The Next Model of Real Estate Coach

Based on my conversations with Jess and others who fit the same model, they…

* Stay raw, authentic and unapologetic…even in the face of online trolls

* Turn off agents they don’t want to coach…gladly and immediately

* Show up and serve agents…long before asking for the sale

* Take a strong stand…often calling out a “strategic enemy”

* Say the things they really believe in…even when it’s risky

* Give permission…not just butt-kicking accountability

At the very least, it’s a great example of the kind of marketing that’s working right now.

But I’d be OK if that becomes the dominant model of real estate coach.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above for the full chat, or search Real Estate Thought Leaders on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing.

Know another coach who fits this model? I’d love to talk to them.

Steal This:

Find something that you stand against.

Could be a person, a group of people, even an idea.Go on Amazon, and buy a puppet or plush toy that represents it.It’s a light-hearted exercise to find your strategic enemy.

You might even use it in your content!

Quick Links & Resources

ListingsLab

Jess’ story (powerful)

Connect with Jess on Insta

There’s more in the conversation I didn’t have room for, including Jess’ plans for her new AI product (in launch at time of recording). So check out the full audio, and make sure you’re connected to Jess on Instagram if you’re not already!

Talk soon,

-Matt

Agency Founder & Author of MicroFamous

PS Want to reach your best prospects with mastermind-style content like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

This week shares some tactics you can test in the next 30 days with zero change of strategy.

The inspiration is a chat with DJ Paris about how he’s using Keeping It Real to reach and attract agents to the Chicago-based brokerage he serves.

Now let’s get into the tactics…

Video SMS for Cold Outreach

“I now do video SMS... I think it’s actually less invasive than a text message... they can visually see that I have this set up. They may know that I have a podcast…And here I am reaching out to them individually.“ DJ Paris

Sending video texts with his podcast branding behind him is a nice twist, especially when you have a show getting hundreds of thousands of downloads a year. And he’s not the only leader who’s mentioned using video texts for recruiting with good success so far.

DJ found the same thing my co-host did when recruiting off our show, Real Estate Uncensored years ago. Content creates some inbound leads, but outbound outreach can 10x your results.

YouTube Videos Optimized for TV, not Mobile

“For the last 3-4 years, I‘ve always been proud of the fact that 33% of our traffic came from TV…In the last year alone, that number has jumped to 66%. And now based on all the recent data, YouTube is the number one streaming app on TV. It’s beating out Netflix and it’s got the most watch time over Netflix as well.” - Levi Lascak, real estate YouTuber, trainer & author of Passive Prospecting

He’s not the only leader who’s mentioned they’re shifting how they create YouTube content, starting with YouTube TV-viewing as the main priority over mobile. That’s a massive shift in consumption habits in just the last couple years. But it tracks with my personal experience, too. YouTube is often the first app I pull up on a TV.

Virtual Workshops & Virtual Live Events

“I still like live webinars, live workshops cause I can reach such a bigger audience. And it’s so hard to get 200, 300 people in a room now anymore. But it’s very easy for me to drive 300-400 people….we just did a four-hour virtual workshop called the Remote Agent Blueprint. We had 82 [people] stay to the END.” Joshua Smith, GSD Mode

If we see a backlash against polished content thanks to AI tools, I could see live workshops and events getting popular again. They may be one of the few ways to learn who is actually a legit thought leader.

Custom Shorts & Reels over AI Clipping Tools & Repurposing

“We’re repurposing less. We’re hyper focused on our niche(s). We’re most focused on what we do well and others can’t or won’t do…than winning on every battlefield. - Todd Tramonte, host of Commissioned

“I’m also using those crappy AI clippers... probably shouldn’t, but I do. And I try to post really good short form content that’s original….I write a script. I don’t use AI. I use CapCut to edit it, takes 10 seconds…it’s not as cool as I’d like it to look, but it’s me.” - DJ Paris

“In the beginning of the podcast, we’d just hop on video to quickly announce the new episode. Those clips didn’t perform well, very few views or interactions. But once we started making them fun and entertaining, engagement followed. Reels and stories that included movement, laughter, silliness, or storytelling consistently got much better results. We also don’t mind this, because we enjoy making them! - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

Pulling short-form content out of long-form feels super easy with AI tools. But it will never beat 100% custom content. I love DJ’s tactic of writing, recording and editing all in one go for simplicity and focus on execution.

For podcasters and YouTubers, I haven’t found anyone who claims to have short-form content figured out. Diary of a CEO is the only one that caught my eye. BUT…they are 100% custom, painstakingly hand-edited. 10X the editing time of an entire podcast episode. We’ve played around with it in our agency, and they’re extremely difficult to produce, and the process is highly subjective. So not something we can build into our done-for-you service (sadly!).

Test New Formats…But Stay Super Consistent.

“In the beginning of the podcast, we’d just hop on video to quickly announce the new episode. Those clips didn’t perform well, very few views or interactions. But once we started making them fun and entertaining, engagement followed. Reels and stories that included movement, laughter, silliness, or storytelling consistently got much better results. We also don’t mind this, because we enjoy making them!” - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

“I’ve been really consistent at doing this. And there’s all kinds of things I’m sure I could have done better and different with my podcast. I actually had a friend reach out, he’s building another tech company and [said]. ‘I want to see what you’re up to. I’ve just seen you do this podcast so consistently for so long. It’s just telling of your commitment to things.’ I never thought of it [podcasting] that way…as you actually on display showing the fact that you’re not going anywhere.” - Justin Stoddart, host of Think Bigger Real Estate

“I’m going deeper into raw, real, organic, even less edited…The engagement seems better there. People appreciate that more because everything is so highly edited now and polished. So while most people are going deeper to AI, I’m doing the opposite.” Joshua Smith, GSD Mode

Any form of content creation that is relentlessly consistent will go through ups and downs. Peaks and valleys in your energy and excitement. The less you sweat the small stuff, the more you can test new tactics and approaches along the way.

Mindset Shift: Treat Every Piece of Content Separately.

“We had a more strict “post per day” policy system in the beginning that also focused on how the feed aesthetics looked. Now we do not limit ourselves to that and just focus on providing value.” - Katy Caldwell, co-host of Hustle Humbly

You can’t test new formats if you’re worried about how all your content looks together.

Audiences rarely see all your content together in one place, anyway. They consume content one video, one post, one newsletter at a time.

The Free Press, which is published on Substack, is about to sell for a rumored $200 million to CBS parent company. Substack doesn’t give a ton of flexibility on branding. Free Press built their brand around content and a point of view, not by having all their content look consistent.

If you’re an independent expert, leader or creator, without a huge organization, embrace this advantage. Get messy.

Worry less about whether a piece of content “elevates your brand” or if everything has a consistent look across platforms.

Worry more about whether it speaks deeply and specifically to the right people.

If you can do that, you’ll build a loyal audience a lot faster.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat with DJ Paris, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re seeing

Am I missing any cool tactics from other creators and leaders?

Ask This:

What would you do differently in your content if you didn’t care how it fit with anything else you’ve done? What would you experiment with that’s TOTALLY authentic to you?

Quick Links & Resources

Keeping it Real Podcast w/DJ Paris

Think Bigger Real Estate w/Justin Stoddart

Hustle Humbly Podcast w/Alissa Jenkins & Katy Caldwell

Commissioned with Todd Tramonte

GSD Mode w/Joshua Smith

Thanks to all of our contributors, DJ, Joshua and Justin who jumped on Zoom (more to come from Justin on his venture ProInsight), and Katy Caldwell and Todd Tramonte who sent in their input by email.

If you’re interested in contributing your thoughts and insights, hit Reply!

I’ll shoot you the questions we’re asking leaders, insiders and content creators. I want to feature insights from a range of folks beyond those who can jump on Zoom for a full interview.

Talk soon,

-Matt

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Want to publish mastermind-style content for your best prospects?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com

Mike’s most effective video wasn’t what I expected.

But when YouTube comes up in my conversations with leaders, I hear a much bigger, unspoken question.

“What does it cost to WIN on YouTube…In time, energy, money…and my SOUL?”

That’s what I want to dig into in this edition. So here are the non-obvious insights from the chat with Mike and my analysis.

Plan on $100k & 2 years minimum to “prime the system.”

“Well for 3 years, I was putting out 2, 3 videos a week. And after 3 years, I had like 1500 subscribers. Nobody knew who I was, not much engagement on my content until the right vehicle aligned with the content. When I joined [eXp], that's when I had 30 agents every 30 days for my first six months. And it just blew up because I primed the system ahead of time.”

Priming the system means mastering content creation and building social capital with an audience. That social capital is what you’re drawing on when you make an offer.

I’m making a few assumptions that you will…

* Take the same amount of time (you’re probably not better than Mike)

* Release 300-500 videos total - (2-3/wk for 3 years)

* Hire out the creative work (you’re not editing vids at 2am)

A little napkin math gets you to 6 figures pretty fast.

Think you’ll get a great editor for cheap overseas? Good luck.You’re probably doing what my agency does, hiring freelance pros in North America.

So let’s assume $100 per video on editing. That’s on the low end. So that’s $30-50k in video editing costs.

At the highest levels, thumbnails require a specialized graphic designer. I’d be ready to spend $200+ per thumbnail (not counting split testing variations). At one point, the agency behind Mel Robbins’ YT channel was charging $1500/mo just for thumbnail design and split testing.

If you can hire a great young thumbnail designer for $100 each, consider yourself blessed by the gods. That's another $30-50k for thumbnails.

Then we have everything else.

Codie Sanchez reportedly dropped $200k on strategy, branding and groundwork for her channel launch.

Competing at the highest level is serious business.

Either give the audience what they want, or stay invisible.

“I did really well in the beginning with [videos about] Instagram, Facebook ads and door knocking. Well, everyone wanted the se.xier topics, Instagram and Facebook ads, not door knocking. So I went down that kind of avenue."

To grow a channel from scratch today, you have to throw enough content out there to see what works…and then double down on it.

Even if the audience pulls you away from topics you want to cover.

YouTube draws a high percentage of beginners overall. Industry turnover creates lots of beginner agents. So if creating beginner-level content feels totally authentic, you're set up pretty well.

To compete with the best Youtubers, you’ll have to go beyond that and find the sweet spot where your content speaks to beginners, intermediate and pros.

If you can’t find that sweet spot, or beginner-level content feels inauthentic, you’ll have a hard time competing at the highest level on YouTube.

Your ego will die a 1,000 deaths

From the content you put out, or the guests you have on, to the feast-or-famine nature of the algorithm. Every aspect of the journey will kill your ego.

"So where I see a lot of people on YouTube go wrong is…they all get infatuated by the vanity metrics. I want to feature this major influencer, this person that was on TV or this big coach, all of that stuff…

…Every person I've featured on my YouTube channel [success stories] is in my revenue share organization, but it goes deeper than that…Those interviews truthfully have been the secret sauce of scaling. It's pretty much a 30-50 minute success case study."

Those videos have no big name guests and don’t get the most views. They are simply the most effective videos for hitting his goal of attracting agents.

Having a ton of overlap is a nice bonus. The content you love to make…gets big views…and is super effective.

But when there isn't a ton of overlap, and you want to compete at the highest level, you’ll be faced with a choice.

Lean into what’s most effective…Or what gets the most views?

Mike also shared the spotlight, and it paid off in a big way.

"I said, well, We're all partners on this journey. How can I put out a different message that allows somebody to connect with the [guest] based on who they are?

I have people from every age, race, ethnicity, gender, language, personality type, and geographic location. So if you're not interested in me, it's almost impossible to go on my channel and not find somebody you see yourself in."

By sharing the spotlight, he gives the audience more options. More people they can connect with. And then he sends viewers to the guest, so they get the sponsorship, even when it dilutes the direct benefit Mike gets.

You'll learn a lot about your relationship with ego in those choices.

Ultimately, the cost of competing on YouTube at the highest level is obsession.

Mike took his engineering background and obsessed over an algorithm built by engineers. He changed his consumption habits and cut relaxation time to spend more time on YouTube. He obsessed over what grabbed attention and what didn’t. If you share that obsession, you’ve got a good head start.

Want to go deeper? Click on the audio file above to listen to the full chat, also available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Or Hit Reply and tell me what you’re thinking.

Are you already on YouTube? Looking at it?

Ask This:

Where can you share the spotlight?

Where can you let your agents, clients or users tell their own story?

Quick Links & Resources

Mike’s YouTube Channel

Mike’s website

Connect with Mike on Insta

Massive thanks to Mike for sharing what it takes to compete and win on YouTube! Connect with him (if you haven’t already) and if you’re going down the same path, pick apart his channel. You’ll come away with some killer tactics!

Talk soon,

Matt

Matt Johnson

CEO & Author - MicroFamous

PS Want a platform like this?

Click here to check out our Done-for-You Content service

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit rethoughtleaders.substack.com