Kick and Phil relive a story 25 years in the making. Violence, regret, deja vu and discovering how our reactions shape us.

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Citations:
Sapolsky, R. M. (2023). Determined: a science of life without free will. Penguin Press.
Giannakopoulos, B (2025)  Free Will Didn’t Die with Libet: Rethinking Agency as Structure, Not Spark
Einam, H., Mikulincer, M., & Shachar, R. (2024). Shedding a light on the teller: on storytelling, meaning in life, and personal goals. The Journal of Positive Psychology, 1–15. https://doi.org/10.1080/17439760.2024.2431684

Real Made Up Stories has been assisted by the Australian Government through Creative Australia, its principal arts investment and advisory body."

Music Credits

"Atmospheric Acoustic Slide Guitar" by Hypertunes, "desert-drone-ominous-ambient" by Arcadian Sounds", "Texas Plains" by Arcadian Sounds, "Brer Krille", "Ballast", "Stipple", " An Oldly Formal Dance", "Golden Grass", "Collecting Samples", "Convex Marsa", "Strange Dog Walk", "Mineshaft" and "Pintle" by Blue Dot Sessions "Tense Drums" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Vengeful" by Blue Dot Sessions, "New PJ Harvey" , "Muffled GRT" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Track 1 Hurt", "Track 4 Hurt", "End Music Hurt" by Philip Okerstrom, Damian Mason and Symon Ayton, "Deranged" by Matthew Creid,  "Ambient Rhythmic" by Damian Mason, "Sole Companion" by Blue Dot Sessions, "Minimalist Touch" by Ali Goldstein, "Intro" and "Heartless" by Philip Okerstrom, "Landscape" by Matthew Creid, "Faster Does It", "Round Drums", "Minimal Dystopian Pulse", "Thinking Music" by Kevin McLeod, "Dark Seas", "Ancient Wind Through The Ruins", "Cumuliform" by Raw Materials, 

Subject Matter Key Words: Violence aganist women, alcohol abuse, masculinity, Apprehended Violence Order, guns, suicidal thoughts, self harm.

Note: This episode contains a lot of swear words.

Detailed Episode Description:

Recap Kick and Phil briefly recap Part 1: The listener is reminded of the events leading up to the key moments that Part 2 will revisit. 
Kick on Finding Pain, Storytelling, and TV Series Kick reflects on: Not having the “pain” often associated with great acting, and how that shaped his professional perspective. His desire to be a storyteller and what that means. A story about his mother being taken to emergency, showing his ability to make people laugh in difficult moments. How this humour and insight translate into his work writing and directing CAUGHT*, establishing his skills in crafting narrative tension and character development. 
Tom Story Flashback (Childhood Trauma) Young Tommy witnesses his father holding a door on his mother’s thumb, causing severe pain. Tommy experiences intense fear and guilt, sits with his mother while she sobs, and fiddles with the bullet necklace he wears. He whispers “I’m sorry,” linking his present guilt to his perceived role in the accident. 
Phil on Neuroscience, Kick’s Police Story, and Career, Fate, and Chance Phil discusses Sapolsky’s research on free will, showing how unconscious brain processes precede conscious decisions. Kick tells a story about a youth yelling at police, showing how prior experience shapes instinctive reactions differently. Kick recounts career-defining chance encounters, including meeting Sean Penn through a short film, emphasizing how small actions and luck shape a trajectory. 
Teen Tom – Contemplating Suicide, Gunshot Dream, Déjà Vu Tom holds a gun to his face, clutching the bullet necklace. A gun shot fire and Tom jolts awake. He is back at the intersection he found himself at on the previous day. Was that all a dream? But as the moments unfold the things he perhaps experienced in the dream appear to be happening again.  He starts to think he should try and do something different to what he did in the dream.
Lachlan picks Tom up in a car, and the conversation unfolds exactly as his dream had. But Tom chooses to answer a key question about his girlfriend Danielle in a different way.
Phil on Storytelling Research, Kick on Young People Project, CAUGHT Iguana Clip* Phil shares research on how storytellers gain purpose by structuring narratives. Kick reflects on the youth projects, emphasizing that participants could actively “change the story” of their lives. Excerpt from CAUGHT*: Rebel leader discusses iguanas failing to warn each other of danger because they don’t tell stories. 
Pub Scene – Tom Meets Callum Tom relives the pub encounter from Part 1 with Callum. He now has a conscious opportunity to respond differently to Callum’s questions about relationships, violence, and life choices. 
Kick on Reacting Differently, Masculinity, and Generational Change Kick comments on the broader idea that people can react differently to repeated opportunities. He ties this to evolving masculinity and the potential for intergenerational learning: owning mistakes prevents the next generation from repeating them. Phil and Kick reinforce the role of storytelling in preserving lessons and passing them forward. 
 Father-Son Reconciliation Tom returns home, calls for his father, and relives the same family interaction from Part 1. Differences emerge: Tom confesses past violence openly; his father responds with sadness but calm. His father gives him the bullet necklace, a symbol of intergenerational responsibility.
Postscript – Phil on Kick Phil reflects on casting Kick decades ago, noting his kindness, emotional openness, and bravery. He praises Kick’s ability to bring lightness to difficult stories, helping audiences engage without being overwhelmed by trauma.

Kick Gurry reads a story he last performed 25 years ago — and it still hits hard.
Violence, Vulnerability, Yellow Pages Commercials, Sean Penn, and what it takes to be an actor.

Rule of Thumb is split into two parts. This is Part 1.

To join us at Coequal's Patreon Page: Click here

To check out the website for Big hArt: Click here

To listen to Agents for Change: Click here

Detailed Music Credits

"Far and Wide" by Soundlab Music, "Texas Plains" by Arcadian Sounds, "Brer Krille", "Ballast", "Stipple", "Golden Grass", "Collecting Samples" and "Pintle" by Blue Dot Sessions "Tense Drums" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Vengeful" by Blue Dot Sessions, "New PJ Harvey" by Philip Okerstrom and Damian Mason, "Deranged" by Matthew Creid,  "An Oldly Formal Dance" by Blue Dot Sessions, "Ambient Rhythmic" by Damian Mason, "Sole Companion" by Blue Dot Sessions, "Minimalist Touch" by Ali Goldstein, "Intro" and "Heartless" by Philip Okerstrom, "Landscape" by Matthew Creid

Subject Matter Key Words: Violence aganist women, alcohol abuse, masculinity, Apprehended Violence Order, guns.

Note: This episode contains a lot of swear words.

Detailed Episode Description:
This episode of Real Made Up Stories blends fiction and reflection, pairing a raw short story about domestic violence with a candid conversation. The conversation starts with exploring how the Real Made Up Story came to be, moves on to how Kick came to be involved in the creation of the story: what things were on his mind when he decided to work on the story and then delivers some reflections about pain, masculinity and violence.

The Rule of Thumb fictional story detailed description:
Tom wakes up on the side of the road near an intersection, not sure how he got there. Living in a small rural town, Tom is a young man whose days are a haze of alcohol and frustration. In his pocket he has an apprehended violence order (AVO) taken out against him by his ex girlfriend Danielle. He hitches a ride back into town and goes to the pub where catches up with his mate Callum, whose casual misogyny feeds Tom’s bitterness. Tom shows Callum the AVO. And when Callum asks him what he is going to do about it, Tom reacts with "I will blow her f**ken head off. The mention of a gun plants a seed in Tom’s mind — an idea that festers as the bourbon flows. That night, he visits his father, lying to his father about wanting to borrow a rifle for a weekend hunt. He wants to know how to get the gun from the gun safe. When he has the information he needs he starts to go. But his father stops him with a gift: a bullet on a leather necklace, passed down through generations as a superstition against death. Tom is surprised by the gift but when he leaves he keeps on with his mission and goes to retrieve the rifle. He goes to Danielle’s house. He waits in the shadows, waiting for Danielle to come home. But suddenly memories push through the alcoholic fog. He remembers the incident that lead Danielle to take an apprehended violece order out against him, how he dragged her from the door when she wouldn't let him come into the house and choked her on the hard driveway.  When Danielle arrives home Tom has come to some sort of sense. He let's Danielle get safely inside and then runs off into the fields behind the houses, unsure of where he is going but knowing he needs to get far away. (The story will continue in the next episode: Rule of Thumb (part 2)


Kick's conversation with host Phil covers these stories:

Early hustle, say-yes-to-everything phase Kick recalls his first scrappy jobs: “a couple of commercials for McCains potato cubes and a Mars [bar],” and even being “an extra in a Yellow Pages commercial where you only saw my feet,” because he wanted to “do anything and everything… just to learn.” That open-door mindset led him to VCA student films: “somehow I got connected with all these short films at the VCA.” The director who told him to “find pain” He describes being cast in a short film by Jo Kennedy (of Starstruck) who had a big influence on him. After the shoot, Jo told Kick he could have “a really great career as an Australian actor… a career like Ben Mendelsohn.”  “But," she said, "you don’t have any pain baked into you. You can tell that you’ve had a really good life.” To be a great actor, “you need to find that pain.” This was part of Kick's motivation to join the Rule of Thumb project as a way to try and find that pain.  How he ended up on The Thin Red Line — and met Sean Penn. On holiday in Port Douglas, he wandered into the production office, gushed about Malick and the cast, and was asked the classic question: “So… are you an actor?” He admits he “revved it up,” telling them he was “about to shoot a movie down in Melbourne.” The "movie" he revved up was Jo Kennedy's short film.  The next day he was invited to be an extra: “They just shaved [my hair] off, slapped blood on me.” Midday, word came that Malick wanted someone to “break down and cry” when the soldiers return from battle. The office vouched for him as “an established Australian actor.” He thought he’d been sprung: “I thought I’d been caught out sort of faking my way onto the set.” Instead, they asked, “Do you think you could break down [and] cry?” He was driven out “in a Tarago with Sean Penn and John Cusack,” did the scene, and remembers: “Sean Penn… clapped at the end of it.” “24 years later, Sean Penn came down to Australia and acted in the TV show that I wrote,” referring to C*A*U*G*H*T, the show Kick not only wrote but also directed, produced and starred in. More about Sean Penn and C*A*U*G*H*T will come up in the next episode: Rule of Thumb Part 2. The community project: Kick brought friends up to work on the community project and mentor disadvantaged young people in some country towns. One of those friends was Callan Mulvey, who’d been [Drazic] on Heartbreak High.” Kick and Cal both found that the subject matter and the reality of those young people's lives soon outweighed the buzz. Kick felt overwhealmed, realising that he and Cal could get away when it became too much, but for those young people "there is no going away… It’s their actual life. We were just pretending.” Models of masculinity and a mentor he adored When considering the masculinity being portrayed in the story Kick identifies nurturing versions of masculinity he has known, spotlighting the actor “Bill Paxton" who Kick met on the Tom Cruise film "Edge of Tomorrow". Bill was kind and generous and a leader - he showed the kind of manhood Kick calls “really, wildly impressive… to be aspired to.” Kick also tells a confronting story - a memory of another actor (a “blunt instrument” type) who told him about a friend’s son punching his girlfriend. The father’s first response to the girl: “You need to stop making him so angry.” Kick says the masculine actor was “hysterically crying” as he told it, because he felt his friends reaction was such “a betrayal of that young girl.” To Kick, that moment felt like a turning point—a realisation that many in society agreed that we should not condone violence against women anymore.

In Rule of Thumb part 2, we will find out more about Kick's experience on the project, whether he found the pain he needs to be a great Australian actor, and how Sean Penn comes back into his circle.


Real Made Up Stories has been assisted by the Australian Government through Creative Australia, its principal arts investment and advisory body."

When 12-year-old Naomi first helped create a fictional story about a witch in a housing estate, she could never have imagined the way it would connect to her real life years later. Now 23, Naomi and co host Phil reflect on how books and stories, like lives, are always connecting with each other. “The Witch” is a trip into childhood myths, cul-de-sac adventures, and how books and stories help us survive what hurts the most.

To join us at Coequal's Patreon Page: Click here

For Jessica Spencer's book Little Words on Miscarriage click here

To check out the website for Beyond Empathy: Click here

Click here to listen to One of the Team on our sister podcast A Good Mind To

Thumbnail Image by Emma Korhonen

Detailed Music Credits
"Fooling Around" by Tristan Noon, "Hurt theme" by Damian Mason and Phil Okerstrom, "Lockdown Rockdown", "Innocent Flute", "Cheeky", "Cheekee", "Sneaky", "Sustain Strings", and "Blue" by Philip Okerstrom, "Nostalgic Cinematic Piano" by Erick McNerney, "Kovd" by Blue Dot Sessions, "Harmonic Mist Strings Artistic" by Eric Sutherland, "Atmospheric Film Music cello" by Gestonwreen, "Ghost Dance", "Hall of the Mountain King Grieg", "Le Grand Chase", "The Path of the Goblin King", "Movement Proposition", "Plain Loafer", "Hamster March", "Sneaky", "Batty McFadden", "Welcome to Horrorland", "Too Cool", "Pensiv", "Ghost Story", and "Ghost Processional" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

To read about what research is saying about Trigger Warnings, you can click here and click here

Episode Detailed Description
Chapter 1. Introduction
The episode opens with Naomi (now 23) and Phil discussing how stories connect—books to books, lives to lives. They reference Wicked and The Wizard of Oz to illustrate how a one-dimensional character (the Wicked Witch) can be reimagined with depth and backstory. This sets up the theme of how books and stories, even playful childhood ones, can evolve and carry hidden truths.
Chapter 2. The Witch (Real Made Up Story) ((What starts as a spooky adventure in a cul-de-sac becomes a moving reflection on loss, empathy, and the ways children make sense of the world))
Naomi and Phil (with a little help) then tell the Real Made Up Story of The Witch. Victoria and her older sister Naomi live in a tight-knit, chaotic-but-safe public housing estate known as “Legoland.”
The story introduces the “Witch”—a figure of fun, fear, myth, and intrigue. Victoria loses the ball over the Witch’s fence. This innocent mistake raises the stakes. Victoria refuses to go in after the ball, playfully terrified. Naomi, older and grounded in logic (but possibly "brainwashed"), does go in. The girls watch with horror and awe… until Naomi emerges with the ball. Doubt is introduced: maybe the Witch isn’t a witch. But the mystery only deepens... Victoria and friends dare each other to knock on the Witch’s door. Victoria knocks and runs—the classic suburban rite of passage. The girls try to lure the Witch out with a mouldy sandwich that happens to be in Victoria’s school bag, and which they throw over the Witch’s fence. But then they hear her voice for the first time: “Who’s there?” they scream in delighted terror all the way home to find Naomi. When they get home, Victoria finds her school bag on the front step. It has been returned—with a teddy bear inside, with her name embroidered on its foot. The teddy bear is beautiful, clearly loved, and maybe some sort of voodoo thing. Naomi reveals that the Witch had a daughter… but that her daughter had died.
Victoria starts to realise why the Witch stays inside. It’s not because she’s a monster—she’s someone who is sad. Victoria doesn’t know much about death, other than that she doesn’t want to think about it. But now she wants to meet the Witch more than ever. On the way home from school, gets chased by some other kids. Fearing she will be caught, Victoria runs into the Witch’s yard. Suddenly, the Witch appears for the first time—fierce, strange, real. She scares the bullies off. And Victoria sees her for the first time. Victoria bravely knocks on the door and asks why the teddy was given to her. The Witch confirms: it belonged to her daughter, also named Victoria. But when Victoria asks to come inside, the Witch says no. Victoria offers sincerity: “If I was polite, would you let me in?” The Witch finally relents: “Tell Naomi to bring you tomorrow for afternoon tea.” Victoria is thrilled. The mysterious old woman is no longer a scary game, but a person—and maybe even a friend. The “Witch” has transformed in Victoria’s eyes, and so has Victoria.
Chapter 3. How audiences responded to the story when it was first released as a film
The story The Witch was originally made up to be featured in a film called Protection, and in it, Naomi played Naomi and her little sister Victoria played Victoria. Naomi talks about what it was like to travel around cities in Australia screening it for people and running Q&A sessions, where she was totally surprised by how moved people were by their stories—and also by all the questions they asked.
Chapter 4. Naomi had a child who was stillborn. 
Naomi shares openly that she had a son: Makai who was stillborn. After his death, she has struggled with the grief. Through a recommendation from her mother, Naomi discovered Little Words on Miscarriage, a collection of poems by Jessica Spencer. The poems resonated deeply and gave Naomi language for feelings and questions she had no words or answers for.
Chapter 5. Naomi reads some poems about the loss of a child
Naomi reads several poems aloud: Empty, Tears, Believe, Lifetime, Parts in Pieces, Bearable, Not Everyone, Your Name. Each piece explores grief, love, loss and memory—delivered in simple, raw language. 
Conclusion
At the close, Naomi explains how the poems helped her. Phil and Naomi talk about some research where listeners’ brains synchronized while hearing a story in an experiment—a visual way to see how stories connect us and may help us feel less alone.

For Red Nose Grief and Loss click here or call 1300 308 307

Real Made Up Stories has been assisted by the Australian Government through Creative Australia, its principal arts investment and advisory body."

A mob of kids won’t be forced off their land — even if it means facing a Dooligar, unmasking crooks, and outsmarting grown-ups. With a touch of Scooby-Doo style fun, The Mystery of Mission Lagoon is a funny, fierce story about home, struggle, and heroes you didn’t expect.

This episode was created with real voices from the Coomaditchie Mission community and inspired by their history of cultural pride and the strength of collective action. 

Episode Artwork: 'The mission', Lorraine Brown, 2007, acrylic on canvas, 51cm x 105.5cm. Courtesy of Diana Wood Conroy. Artwork © the artist.

To join us at Coequal's Patreon Page: Click here

To check out the website for Coomaditchie United Aboriginal Corporation: Click here

To check out the website for Culture Bank: Click here

To check out the website for Beyond Empathy: Click here


To listen to Aunty Lindy's Cultural Ways episode in A Good Mind To: Click here

Detailed Music Credits
Intro Pink: Phil Okerstrom, Ghost Processional: Kevin MacLeod, Ep 1 Icon Song: Phil Okerstrom and Damian Mason, Bleaky 2: Phil Okerstrom, Horrow Show 2: Phil Okerstrom, Sunny and Busy by Francesco Giovannangelo Lynne Publishing, Human Beat by Kevin MacLeod, Beatbox 1 by Crazy Tunes, Dynamic Beatbox by Fat Bunny, Beatbox by Wormwood Music, Beatboxing by Crazy Tunes
Crunchy Straight Loop by Phil Okerstrom, Old Postcards by Marcel, Timeless by Marcel, Butterfields Loop - Phil Okerstrom, Taking up the Fight - Mirco Sossai, Energetic Pod by Phil Okerstrom, Kevin Gillis by Mirco Sossai, Tale Teller by Francesco Giovannangelo, Mischeif Jazz by Kevin MacLeod, Cheeky Strut by Cue Junkie, Ambient Haunting by Phil Okerstrom and Damian Mason, Ghostpocalypse by Kevin MacLeod, Charmaine by Phil Okerstrom and Damian Mason
Sneaky Time by Francesco Giovannangelo Lynne Publishing, Swamp Blues by Lynne Publishing,
Short Breath by Francesco Giovannangelo Lynne Publishing, Mess by V Audio, Thinking Music by Kevin MacLeod, Unseen Horrors by Kevin MacLeod, Scoobie Doo Broody Mc Broods by Phil Okerstrom, Haunted Forest by Kevin MacLeod, Heavy Drums Driving Dramatic by Phil Okerstrom and Damian Mason, Possible Chase by Phil Okerstrom, Hidden Agenda by Kevin MacLeod, Slick and Sneaky by Sound Roll, Let's Get This Done by Purple Planet Music, News 9 by Leto, Lockdown Rockdown by Phil Okerstrrom, Didgeridoo Long Loop by Tera Mangala


All Kevin MacLeod Tracks (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

Reference Material

Organ, M.K (1993) Illawarra and South Coast Aborigines 1770-1900, Universty of Wollongong
Department of Environment and Conservation, A History of Aboriginal People of the Illawarra 1770 to 1970, 
NSW Government Department of Environment and Heritage (2005) Illawarra Aboriginal History Poster Early Contact Map, https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/cultureheritage/illawarraAboriginalHistoryPoster.pdf
Eklund, Erik (2002) Steel Town: The Making and Breaking of Port Kembla, Melbourne University Press
Department of Environment and Conservation (NSW) (2004) Aboriginal Women’s Heritage: Wollongong 

Real Made up stories has been assisted by the Australian Government through Creative Australia, its principal arts investment and advisory body."

This epsiode has been supported with funding from Culture Bank.


(c) Coomaditchie United Aboriginal Corporation 2025