Really Good Conversations

Summary

What happens when you realise the life you've built no longer fits?

In this episode, Andrew Sloan shares the story behind his book Why Things Feel F*cked and the personal reinvention that followed.

From ending a long-term relationship to taking his work on the road, Andrew explores why so many of us feel stretched, stuck or overwhelmed and why better conversations might be the way through.

We talk about nervous systems, leadership, perfectionism and the quiet power of human connection.

Guest

Andrew Sloan is an integrated psychotherapist and leadership coach who works with individuals from all walks of life, as well as CEOs and executive teams navigating performance and culture challenges.

His work sits at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance, with a focus on self-leadership, nervous system awareness and meaningful conversations. He is the author of Why Things Feel F*cked and speaks nationally on leadership, resilience and connection.

Overview

After publishing his book, Andrew made a series of significant life changes, choosing freedom and possibility over stability. That shift becomes the gateway into a wider discussion: why do so many of us feel under pressure, even when life looks "fine" on paper?

Andrew unpacks the modern productivity trap and the way digital life keeps our nervous systems in a constant state of activation. He explains why chaos isn't new, but our relationship with it has changed; and how the smallest shifts, from elongating the exhale to reconnecting with nature, can begin to restore calm.

Andrew shares why most performance issues at work are really conversation issues. High performance and wellbeing are not opposing forces, but deeply connected.

This is a thought provoking, grounding episode about curiosity, courage and the human need for meaningful connection.

Key takeaways

• Modern life keeps our nervous systems activated through constant digital input
• Many workplace performance problems are actually conversation problems
• Calm hasn't disappeared. It's simply covered over by protective patterns
• The practical shifts that can help us reset

For more information:

Andrew Sloan www.andrewsloan.com.au

Warning: This episode contains strong language. With quite a few F-bombs.

Transcript

Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Andrew Sloan, an integrated psychotherapist, leadership coach, and author of "Why Things Feel F*cked". Andrew works with individuals from all walks of life through his private practice, as well as CEOs and executive teams at the intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Whether it's in his one-to-one sessions or inside leadership rooms, his focus is on what's really going on beneath the surface and when things aren't working. At the heart of his work is one simple but powerful idea. Better human relationships start with better conversations. In today's episode, we're going to explore reinvention, why so many of us feel stuck right now, and what actually helps when life feels a little off.

Welcome to the podcast, Andrew.

Andrew (01:25)

Thank you for having me, very, very much.

Amy (01:28)

Even just reading in your intro totally just aligns with the world that we are in with really good conversations when you highlight that better human relationships start with better conversations. And I felt it was great to get you as a guest on the podcast. You have launched a book in the last year and we are going to get on to that. But the last year has been quite a big year for you. And there's been changes and adventures. So can you give us a little bit of an insight to your own life of what has shifted and what made you realise something needed to change?

Andrew (02:02)

Well, I think the last 10 years has been a pretty massive adventure, all sort of crescendoing in the last 12 months where I started to write a book. 2024, I started in June and then as I was writing the book, I realised that there were some really hard conversations I needed to have with the people that I loved. And so as I published the book in November last year, I ended a 13 year relationship and you know, that was because I think it wasn't set up for common connection in the world as I wanted it. And for him, after 13 years, it didn't feel free enough. And so we came to the decision to separate after so long. All whilst I am publishing a book into the world. I wrote about the breakup in the book as well in chapter nine at the beginning. I start to talk about, you know, the critical and really meaningful conversations we needed to have, to make a change possible. And then I just couldn't see my life being anchored to a mortgage or even a lease again. All of those options in front of me were a no towards that sort of being tied down to something. And it just felt energetically in my body, like a big fat no.

And I had to have a really considerate conversation with myself about what that meant to kind of shirk that security. And I bought a motor home and I am traveling around Australia for at least 12 months. The way it's going right now, Amy, it's like, it's really cool. I'm like, is there an end date? I don't know. But one of the big adventures that I'm on right now is to take the "why things feel f*cked" idea and continue to have that conversation in different communities. And I've already been starting to do that, but also learn what's beyond what feels f*cked. I definitely talk about that in the book, but I think I'm on a journey towards learning at a higher fidelity. What does real great living look like beyond us recognising and knowing this isn't it? What is on the other side of that? Is it more a connection to nature, more diverse people? Is it being a bit more nomadic? And that is what I'm currently discovering. And it's f*cking cool.

Amy (04:37)

That is amazing. And even just going back to your own personal experience of writing the book, the majority of people, yeah, the vast majority of people don't perhaps get an opportunity to do that full self discovery. So it's almost, as you said, through that process of writing the book and the context and the content you were writing about, actually showed a mirror into your own world.

And then as you said, you're now getting out there beyond what was your usual world where you were obviously living at the time and then meeting completely different new people, new communities, new locations and you're just living out your own experiment in some way.

Andrew (05:17)

Yeah, it's different vantage points, right? Of the same thing called this human experience. And I will never forget the day I had the printed out manuscript and I was working through it to work on an edit. And I was like, I don't have this in my relationship right now. I can't have that meaningful conversation right now in this relationship. And it was as I was flicking through it, I was like, f*ck.

I need to make some significant changes here. And, yeah, it's, it's been a wild, wild ride and it continues to be one. And it's a beautifully profound moment when I can kind of lay down those things that keep us safe, like the mortgage and the house and literally pick up a mobile home, a beautiful one at that and drive around and go, I can actually live a bit more simply than I was.

I can live way more connected to myself and nature than I ever have been. And, look, there's also some really great conversations to have on the road as well.

Amy (06:23)

Because we're sold the more, more, more, you know, the work for more, the get the bigger, whether it's the bigger job or the bigger thing to always be reaching the apartment, then the house, then the bigger house. It's always that more, more,

Andrew (06:34)

And the job, right? That supports it all because without that job, we can't pay the mortgage at the level we are. And we can't meet the cost of living pressures that we find ourselves in. And so, yeah, we are stuck in a little bit of a trap. And I talk about this in the book as the productivity trap and it is the more, more, more mindset. And it's a myriad of different things that kind of put us into that mode. I'm not sitting here saying, well, they all should be destroyed and broken down. No, I'm not suggesting that. I don't think everyone should go on a motor home because I probably wouldn't have a campsite left if you all joined me. But we do need to orientate ourselves in that so we can make better choices. And the first step is to acclimate ourselves to that and go, oh, I am in that more, more, more. And it is kind of fueling something in my life that is hindering presence, calm, wellbeing, better connection with the people around us. So yeah, it's important we're having this conversation about the more, more. And I think people are starting to realise, yeah, this isn't working and I feel like I'm trapped by it.

Amy (07:47)

Just on the treadmill. What for you was the point that you thought, I want to write a book, I need to write a book and actually it's going to really highlight, you know, obviously a title that gets attention for sure, "Why Things Feel F*cked". Where did that drive for you come from in the first place?

Andrew (08:03)

It's so multi-layered. And I think if we begin where we were just in our conversation, it was with clients coming to me and saying, I'm really stuck and I have no f*cking idea why I'm in the dark to why I feel like I am so stuck. And this experience of the sort of curtain is closed to why we feel so f*cked and why we then feel so stuck in that.

We're following all the rules and we don't know why joy and happiness and peace is impossible in our lives. That was the beginning of, wow, how do I compile something that will tangibly and practically help not be like a self-help book that just gives you the surface treatment or gives you a couple of the moves, but without the robustness that I think we need in a world that is kind of keeping us in place.

But the other answer to that question is my lifespan, right? So the, the, the, things feel f*cked for me from 13, 21, 35 to 41. Now that I sit here and talk to you, there's been layers of why things have felt f*cked and these mimic and echo what I hear from clients. Right. And I hear from clients in my private practice where I'm meeting one to one with people, but also when I sit in executive teams and go, wow, we're all a bunch of babies sitting at this table reacting to the world from how we were brought up, but we're bringing it to the boardroom and creating really ineffective, harmful conversations with each other. And so I see it on both ends of the spectrum. I'm like, this is all the same shit. It's all the same thing. It's a nervous system inside of your and my body that has been shaped by the world, to the point where it's playing out in pretty destructive ways, fear-based ways. We start to try to attempt to take power over each other.

And so when I saw those patterns, I'm not the sort of person that can look away from those patterns and do nothing. I see those patterns and I'm like, wow, this story needs to be threaded together and it needs to be told. And so that's why this book is set up in this way. It talks about, how do we get into this mess? What's the impact on our bodies? And the last two parts of the book are the pathway out personally, what choices, moves, frameworks and strategies might we need to use personally? And then how are we going to bring them to others? You know, how are we going to accept other people's support, but also how do we cultivate belonging and connection everywhere we go? And that was the primary driver to lay out this book in the way that I did, but also the driver to actually tell my personal story for the first time, because I've kept my personal story way out of my conversations with people because I wanted their story to be central. And that's an ethical responsibility, but also it keeps the pressure on the right thing. You, the client, not me, but I really needed to leverage my story. felt to propel this story along and keep people engaged and to speak to the right people. So, it was uncomfortable, but I did it anyway.

Amy (11:27)

And what a process, a journey, you know, and a growth experience and what you're now doing off the back of it. I mean, I bet when you embarked on this book, yes, you may have thought, oh, well, I'll do a bit of a book tour around Australia. But when you set out on it, you probably weren't thinking, oh, I will actually, separating from partner, getting a motor home and driving around Australia for over a year. I love it. It's just, you know, where these opportunities and things come from.

And you do talk about, know, it's not necessarily a new feeling in that, humans have always lived through chaos, you know, and there's various examples of chaos over the, over the different generations and wars and everything like that. But what feels different about how we're experiencing it now in this current time?

Andrew (12:15)

Chaos is the substrate of the human experience. Some models call it disorder is the known fabric of the universe and the human experience of it. And so yeah, we've always had chaos and strategies to quell that chaos, right? And throughout history, I think that's impinged upon us, that has hammered us. And yeah, we are certainly not in the worst version of that. We're just in a new version of that.

And I think the chaos right now for people, and this might be a really great stat for you being from the UK in the UK right now, nine out of 10 people are reporting high levels of pressure and stress right now. And we can see that from the cost of living crisis, the political landscape, the threat of AI, a whole bunch of different things, but I kind of distill it down to chaos being wrapped in a digital bubble wrap. You know, it's like we've digitified chaos in so many ways. And we pick up these phones, mine's plugged into the moment because I've been using it so much this morning, but we pick up these phones and they're our interface into the world. And they're also hijacking parts of our brains and our bodies to activated versions of themselves. So you add in smartphones to that mix and we've got a real big challenge where chaos is wrapped in that digital layer.

I don't think we started to talk about it in some of the studies around increasing experiences of anxiety and depression in young people when they're engaging with social media as an example. But I don't think we're talking about it enough, like the toxicity that actually happens through the lens of our phones and them actually keeping us from really good conversations, keeping us from the present moment inside of ourselves. And I am still in that loop as well. I get stuck doom scrolling, get stuck in thinking I need to be accessible by my phone than in the present moment with myself or another person all the time. And I'm thinking about strategies on how to quell that and to reduce that. One of the things I've just started and it's really easy in a motor home because the bed and the charger can be really separate.But I'm no longer plugging my phone in where I can access it in bed. Yeah. So that I can create a buffer of the beginning and the end of my day, which can be lo-fi and digital free. It's, it's not digital free because I have my, my tracker on, but it is feed free at the very least to really create a different experience in the beginning and the end of the day. And I wonder about its effect on my calm, but also my quality of sleep, right? Which we know is a huge part of feeling that stress, that anxiousness, that ramped up-ness in that digital chaos bubble. What does it do when we can kind of down that? I think it's important.

Amy (15:24)

Absolutely. And this, you know, totally resonates. And I know I'm guilty of especially, you know, having family in a different time zone. I'm going to bed quickly doing messages because, you know, it's their daytime. So therefore I'm ending that day on the phone, waking up and reaching for the phone to then if I do want to catch people or things or obviously, yes, you know, our businesses in the UK as well, then therefore you're just always, yeah, always on.

And I think there's a lot of talk, even just phones being the example, you know, there's a lot of focus and conversation of children and their use of it. And, you know, some of the initiatives that have been talked about there, but it's for me, it's like, it's us adults actually as well. So in a professional sense, it's that full yet the world of LinkedIn in business, if you're not promoting it on somewhere, is it even happening? And then you're in this constant just engagement and feed. So absolutely I feel like that.

You did touch on nervous system and such, and for someone who's listening and does feel perhaps they're like constantly just on edge or feeling that high almost like angst, stress level. What is something like a practical shift or tip you think is a genuine good place to start?

Andrew (16:37)

Well, I'm going to start with a connective tissue between what we were just talking about in this question. Then I'm going to go to three things we could do today, Micro things. But the biggest misunderstood thing about calm is that the majority of it is what we're doing right now. Eyeball to eyeball, face to face, voice box to voice box connection is the biggest move we can make towards a calmer, more deactivated nervous system. And when we pick up our phone, we actually split that connective tissue. So we're at the dinner table. We're with our friends. And when we, all that typical person picks up the phone and it breaks connection, actually is severing our ability to feel calm and curious and connected with each other.

And this is biochemical through the vagus nerve, through the auditory nerve, and to our facial expressions and beyond into our voice boxes. And this is the stuff we had in small hunter gathering groups in plentiful supply. It's when really good conversations were never interrupted by our digital lives. So that's one thing. When I think about how we support people to more deactivation, away from angst, away from rage, away from anxiousness and into presence, it is mostly supported by human interaction, face-to-face connection. And then of course, when we don't have access to another human that feels safe, because a lot of human connection is judgmental or critical or narrows us or activates us. And so unfortunately, the world is in plentiful supply of those people. And so when we can't get that safe human, like the energy we are bringing each other, of openness and warmth and curiosity and reciprocity. We call it in the science, it's like this even flow between two people.

When we can't get that, yes, there's some body moves we might want to make.

The first one is to think about breath. Elongating our exhale is foundational to a deactivated nervous system. It is a beautiful way to become purposeful and present. And it massages all the bits and pieces of our nervous system that help us deactivate, even when things are still chaotic and messy in our lives. It's not as simple as just saying, the therapist is telling you to breathe, but it is like, is kind of that simple. And so elongating that exhale is the goal and we don't need any messy or complex breath work. We might want to go down that path. I'm just saying it's easy enough just to elongate that exhale.

The second thing is at times we might be really activated and this kind of has two forms and one of the things that I've picked up myself recently, because I'm privileged enough to be able to access a sauna and a cold plunge, we can simulate that ourselves. If we're really activated, go and splash cold water on your face, activate the nerve, the vagus nerve, and find a rebalance in your nervous system state. So when people are really overwhelmed, that's a really great hack to kind of step into.

And that cold water down-regulates our nervous system towards calm. The medium of that is if we're fortunate enough to live in spaces that have saunas and cold plunges, they actually mimic the fight and flight response and allow us to come back to a more regulated zone. And so this stretching of our nervous systems are really supportive at finding more calm in our everyday life, that chaos.

The third is, go find nature.When we gaze at bodies of water and there's this science around fractals, fractals are found in leaves, waves, anything natural really is a natural fractal. The opposite is the straight lines of this room that I'm sitting in, the manufactured spaces that we are often in, or even that, I don't know, that pattern behind you, that beautiful soundproofing.

Well, they're certainly not down regulating our nervous systems, but what we do know is, we know that built environments are not, but we know natural environments do. They down-regulate our nervous system. So there's, Dr. Jenny Brogdon in WA is talking about a prescription of nature every single day. And she's a GP. She goes, "I want to prescribe you" in her book -- I think it's "Nature's Great Advantage" -- but, "I want to prescribe you a prescription of access to nature every single day". And that in the van, the living 360 degrees of my life in nature, the level of calm I have felt, I'm like, she's not joking. She's not joking. It's real. It's real. And it's profound. And we need to be thinking about it more and more as we move through the chaos.

Amy (21:50)

Absolutely. And we touched on this just before as we started. If you are traveling in and out of cities or perhaps offices, you know, you're just commuting in, in, out. There's all of the different things you're just seeing on a daily basis or traffic or lights or sounds, all the stimulus that you just go through without really a second thought. But then as you say, you maybe go sit in an office all day and then come home and do it again. There's not that getting into the nature part.

Andrew (22:17)

And on Sunday, I went to nature with two mates and we had a meaningful conversation together about identity and life and navigating the world as it is. And it was a beautiful thing because I could mix both, you know, nature with great conversations coming together. And this might be a good idea for another pack. What if that was a whole pack of yours and it could include nature, right? In the dialogue.

Amy (22:45)

Where you're making me think, could I do this podcast on the move in nature? Because what I have actually been doing is more recently also having like, walking meetings with people. So especially if they're relatively local, could get to the rather than just saying, well, let's meet at this cafe for a coffee and have a seated meeting is like actually let's meet so and so which then we're getting, you know, it's flowing conversation, but it's both getting a bit of exercise at the same time. But yeah, you do, you find the conversation flows in different directions.

Andrew (23:16)

It's a different quality of conversation, isn't it? Profoundly different. It's because we're having a conversation in the setting closer related to where our neurobiology and chemistry grew up and it evolved. It evolved in natural spaces. This isn't like a new idea. This isn't like woo woo thinking. This is -- no, our neurons and our nervous system grew up in natural spaces.Let's re-dose ourselves with those natural spaces because we know we need it. Yeah.

Amy (23:46)

Absolutely. And we'll touch on before we go, you know, to some of the question cards from our packs, but you do do a lot of work in the corporate and leadership space. And when do you realize what looks like a performance issue is actually a conversation issue?

Andrew (24:02)

Well, 26% of us, only 26% of us are in workplaces that are fit for human consumption. Where the psychosocial hazards or the toxicity of really bad conversations aren't hammering us. That relegates at least 74 % of us are in workplaces which are toxic to human connections.

70% of us getting into the wellbeing space of work where high performance and wellbeing merges together, 70% is the meaningful conversations we have with our direct manager. And so every workplace challenge and issue, at least 70% of it is about better conversations with our leaders, better human relationships with our leaders. And 30% is the pay, the facilities, systems, the processes, all the other stuff. And that is what I take to senior leaders and their teams is like, yeah, you could, you can out-bot the bots. You can try to get ahead through AI and digitification, but your market leadership, your leadership of a highly profitable and high-performing team is actually the dimensionality of your human to human relationships inside of this business. And what are you doing around that?

Yes, tend to AI, get ahead of the curve. Absolutely. Don't ignore it. Because that would be quite foolish. But at least 70% of your time and your energy should be about great conversations with your people. And so the science is really clear. The number one driver of well-being in high performance is care. And Graham Cowan is writing a book, publishing it this year, another great guest for you, called "The Manager That Cares".

And we know that care is the central driver, but the care is all about meaningful conversations at work. And Gallup, who is the large polling organization in the States, says half an hour often. And often in different settings means different things for different setups. It could be monthly, fortnightly or weekly. And it's half an hour conversations that are deeply meaningful that orientate people to what excellence looks like, frees them up to do their best work by the systems and the information, the processes, deeply cares about the person, but also helps them learn, and stretch. And this is what most workplace performance issues are because of and solved by.

Amy (26:43)

It's wild listening to you talk about this specific point because what you're making me think is we are having as humans to almost re-educate ourselves on just the basics of human interaction because we've had so much technology. Learn the technology, learn the tools.

Andrew (27:00)

It's not even the technological change of the last 15 years. It's how we were brought up by those humans who were well-meaning and caring and very loving. I'm not saying they weren't, but they did not teach us how to have great conversations, don't know about you, but they also didn't teach us how to regulate our emotions and our nervous systems so that we could get out of our own way and have a present conversation with someone. So this is layers of history that have gone in the way of the basics of the human experience. They are basics around breath, connect meaningfully and go and touch grass and see sea today. You know, like they are basic, but we have overcomplicated it so much that we have to kind of delay the complexity to get back to that simple human rhythm.

Amy (27:52)

And what question do you wish more people ask themselves when life does start to feel off?

Andrew (27:58)

Wow. That's such a beautiful question. And like inside of me, I've got like 50 questions wanting to step forward. Maybe what would be a more curious response to this? Because sometimes I think what all of that we've just described, it invites us and has invited us towards certainty, having to know the answer, having to be in a black and white position, a yes or no position.

So I wonder in those circumstances, could the question be to ask, could I get more curious? Could I be more open? Could I be more flexible? Could I be more vulnerable and not knowing? And then what would happen? Then what would take shape next?

Amy (28:44)

I'll be asking you our three questions from our conversation packs in a moment, but the question I'll ask you before we do do them is, has there ever been a conversation that has profoundly shaped you or changed your direction in life?

Andrew (28:58)

Again, I could talk to you about 90. I have the fortune, the good fortune of being able to speak with about probably 30 to 35 people every fortnight to month. Each one of those very generous humans that trust me to have really great conversations with them changes me every single day week. It's such an honor to be a psychotherapist and coach, leadership coach, that they are all very profound. But what's one conversation that I could tell you about that changed things profoundly? I'll never forget sitting with a therapist who for the very first time challenged my dominant logic about what was normal and if normal was really real.

And we were talking about this before we connected and started to hit record that I think we're convinced that there is a normal out there we should subscribe to. And she was the first person to put me in a position to really second guess that. And she kind of helped me fracture it. That there is no such thing as a normal, a homogenous way of living, a dominant logic on what's right and what's wrong.

And it was the most powerful conversation. And I remember where I was sitting. remember the light coming through this window on the left. I remember the floorboards. I remember her face. And I remember that fracture and going, well, what is normal? Which actually changed the course of the trajectory of the next 20 years of my life to really never put my normal onto someone else. Really bad conversations happen in teams, workplaces and marriages.When we expect our normal to be someone else's normal or another way of saying that is my version of this, the thinking, the feeling and the doing is the same as your version of the thinking and the feeling of the doing. And the conflict that that creates actually divides us and separates us. And so that conversation, that profound conversation that questioned normal and what normality was. I think if we were writing the memoir, which we're not, that would be the pivotal point of like, Whoa. And then cracked open there and set me on the course that I clearly am on now, you know, after 20 years from that conversation, I'm here.

Amy (31:29)

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that fantastic answer. Right, so whistle stop three questions from our packs of cards. Question number one. If you came with a warning label, what would it say?

Andrew (31:46)

At times brash, confident and clear, but please understand, very soft and very vulnerable on the inside.

Amy (31:57)

Oh, lovely. And more people could do with taking that kind of thinking to when they're working with their colleagues and things, you know.

Andrew (32:04)

The most direct of us, the most demanding of us, the most dictatorial of us are at times the most vulnerable and soft. And I think you're right. When we go and navigate the world and we've got that brashness from others, it often is a lot of insecurity underneath that. That's when it's in its extreme form. Yeah. I'm offering it to you, you know, hopefully more integrated, more present, more aware, of course, by the value of my work, but also how I've moved through the world. But yeah, sometimes that brashness in others is a lot of insecurity and fear.

Amy (32:43)

Yes, I can imagine, definitely. Question number two. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

Andrew (32:51)

Well, I've written a book that I hope to gift to everyone. It's probably got too much in it, right? It's a maximalist... I've gone for depth of framework and change than simplicity. But one of the things in the book I talk about is the manhandling of our nervous systems in how they've been shaped by our past relationships and the world as it is.

but the many layers of systems that have brought us up in the world and continue to shape our lives. The one thing I want them to know is that that calm, connected, curious nervous system is never evaporated in us. It is never extinguished in us. It is forever present, but it can get covered up by parts of our personality that are keeping us safe. And so the one thing I want to hand down to younger generations is just because it feels like it's extinguished, that calm, that peace, it's not.

And it is just being occluded or covered up by impulses in us that are trying to keep us safe in a chaotic world. Trust that it's there and find your way back through small changes often back to that. And it might be you, Amy, standing on the shoreline this afternoon with your feet in the sand just before you jump in the water. And hopefully there's a sharknet there. And it might be those micro moments that happen more times than they don't to get back to that part of our nervous systems that have always been there and will always be there and we can revisit them in these small ways. That is what I would love to pass down.

Amy (34:23)

That is a beautiful reminder and yes, definitely a reminder for me as well.

Question number three, the last one. What is one of your pet hates?

Andrew (34:31)

Oversimplifying how we need to move forward when we think things feel f*cked. There's some theories, well-meaning theories out there right now around how we can live a better life. And they oversimplify a pretty complex experience that feels actually really messy. Though you and I have simplified a few key moves to make.

Finding presence enough in our days to have a face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball conversation is sometimes really hard for people. For some of my clients, finding that extra exhale is as challenging as climbing Everest because of their past experiences. So one of my pet hates is when we oversimplify our complex and very hard experience and we just make it simple and we put pressure on people that it should be easy to make it happen.

Another example of that is with leaders telling them one meaningful conversation often that for some leaders is really hard with the demands and the pressures of their workplace cultures. So oversimplifying things when they are messy and hard and stuck and not giving people just enough complexity so they can orientate themselves and then valuably know how to move forward, you know, with the steps, the moves, the different experiments that they might want to make because there isn't a one size fits all unfortunately.

Amy (35:59)

You literally just read the words out of my head. I was thinking exactly that. You read these lists or these tips and you're just like, yes, sometimes it feels like a bigger to do list to add to your day that you're trying to already do. They're all fantastic answers. So thank you for everything you've shared there and throughout this conversation. The last question that I ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?

Andrew (36:25)

When I first was training to be a psychotherapist and you will, if you ever speak to an emerging therapist, we always talk about Carl Rogers. And if you or your listeners would ever love to hear and see an example of a great conversation, go and Google Carl Rogers in session. He's got actual sessions that he did. And I'm talking about like, I think this is like the 50s, 60s. It was like, a long time ago. I would sit down with Carl, who's one of my conversational heroes and the little guy in me would want to know, am I doing well? Am I doing okay, Carl? Am I making you proud of how to have great conversations? Because he was and is for many emerging therapists, the blueprint, the epitome that Mount Everest of great conversations and with such warmth and such care and I would just love to know if I was doing him proud.

Amy (37:30)

That's brilliant. And I'm sure from everything you have shared in your journey, I'm absolutely sure that you will be doing, you know, him proud.

Andrew (37:39)

I could cry. I could cry at that thought. That's a beautiful thing.

Amy (37:43)

Well, I think equally you've shared some really just great, you know, concepts, insights, information, but, know, practical kind of just thoughts that hopefully our listeners can resonate with and take away. And, you know, I think the journey you are currently on is so inspiring. We're talking about where you're at now and all the positives at it, but equally, I appreciate it. It probably hasn't been a totally easy journey as you have navigated through these changes, you know, as well.

Andrew (38:08)

Yes, it's so true. And that might be in the next book. But for now, go and buy the first one.

Amy (38:14)

Brilliant. And yes, as we wrap up, give a shout out to where people can, you know, find out more about you, check out the book and your other work as well.

Andrew (38:22)

The best place right now to find me as Instagram -- hello_andrewsloan, and no "e" at the end. You'll probably link it into the show. That's the best place to keep up to date with what's going on. There will be van content coming in the months ahead, but yeah, the book is really anywhere. There's a great audio version on audible, which is like having a conversation with me where you don't get a word in.

Amy (38:33)

Yeah, I'll add all the links in.

Andrew (38:50)

And it's just me speaking at you for six hours that has a digital resource connected to it where you can get the tools, the resources that I speak about in the audio book. But of course it's available on paperback, Kindle. If you go and Google "Why Things Feel F*cked", you'll find everywhere that it lives. But, yeah, come follow me on Instagram, grab the book, join into the conversation and yeah, get ready for the next book that I'm writing now on the road.

Amy (39:15)

Brilliant. Thank you. Well, safe travels and I look forward to seeing where you end up next.

Andrew (39:21)

Thank you, Amy.

Summary

When was the last time you had a night out that felt completely worth it?

In this episode, Amy is joined by 'The Jodie's', Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries, founders of House of Zim; a women-only events concept redefining what a great night out looks like for women over 35.

Guest

Jodie Whelan and Jodie de Vries are co-founders of House of Zim, a Sydney-based women-only events concept designed for women over 35.

With backgrounds in brand and marketing, they've combined strategic thinking with lived experience to create thoughtfully curated, early-evening dance events that prioritise connection, nostalgia and joy.

Overview

Between careers, children, responsibilities and the constant pressure to optimise our lives, joy can quietly slip down the priority list. And when getting out requires organising childcare, coordinating diaries and reshuffling life's logistics, the stakes feel higher. If you're going to make the effort, it needs to be worth it.

House of Zim was built around that idea - "a guaranteed good night".

Together, they explore why women-only spaces feel different, what actually happens on a dance floor when women feel safe, and how music reconnects us with parts of ourselves that may have been pushed aside.

The conversation moves beyond events into something deeper; identity, permission, friendship and the courage to prioritise what makes us feel alive.

If you've ever wondered when you last danced, laughed freely or did something purely because you wanted to, this episode will resonate.

Key takeaways

• How the loss of 'joy' sparked the idea of creating 'House of Zim'

• What 'House of Zim' really means, and who it's for

• The psychology behind music, memory and connection

• Building a brand aligned with values and the misconceptions

• How women-only spaces shift energy and confidence

For more information on

House of Zim https://houseofzim.com/

Transcript

Amy (00:02)

Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I'm joined by the Jodies, Jodie Whelan and Jodie De Vries, friends, sister-in-laws and co-founders of House of Zim, a women-only events concept rethinking what a great night out looks like for women over 35. Today we're talking about the role of fun, the power of women-only spaces and what it takes to design a guaranteed good night -- and also what it is like building a business together. Welcome to the podcast, ladies.

The Jodies (01:04)

Hi, thanks for having us.

Amy (01:06)

Thank you. It's so lovely to see you and thank you for bringing your dancing vibe, the energy to this podcast. So our listeners can't see that, you when I dialed in the ladies were there enjoying a good old dance, well and truly living at their brand. I'd love to obviously chat to you about House of Zim, what you're creating and the journey you've been on so far and where you're heading. But tell us firstly, a little bit of the origin story and was there an exact moment for you where you realized fun had perhaps slipped off your radar in your lives.

The Jodies (01:43)

Yeah. So, Jodie and I used to own a business together, a branding agency. Jodie still has it, Tiny Hunter. And I stepped back from that about four years ago. Life was too busy and I have two young children. Jodie has three young children and it wasn't too busy for her, but I know we've all got different limits. And so I stepped back and decided to have a little bit of time out and I sort of was mulling over, I was wondering, will I go back in? What else did I want to do? And part of me thought, well, you know, I'll go off and be independent. But actually, I did keep coming back that I wanted to work with Jodie again. And I'd been through the whole, you know, burnt out wellness rituals, all of that, and they helped. They did. But then at some point, I really just started feeling like I wanted to lean back into fun again.

And so Jodie was very supportive and she'd come out to me with all these nights out. And we found that we were going to this one particular bar in the city. We loved it. We knew that it was always going to be great music, but it didn't get good until later on in the evening. And also there was a lot of young people there and young people are lovely. And God bless all the 20 year old women who want to wear crop tops and have fantastic bodies. But I was just perhaps in a place where I was like, Ooh, this is making me feel a bit old.

So, yeah, I sat across from Jodie in a cafe and was like, I know you're really busy, but might you want to start a guaranteed good night out for women who are 35 and over? And that really was as simple as that. We knew that we wanted women to have a crowd that they could relate to. We knew that we wanted it to be music that you know and love. So we're particularly passionate about 90s and 2000s house and pop. And we knew that we wanted it to be a good venue.

So, know, no sticky floors, places that respect your age and that you feel like you're gonna have a good night in.

Amy (03:48)

Brilliant. And what made you decide to go down women only specifically?

The Jodies (03:55)

Women are the best. Sorry. I just think, well, there are lots of places that you can go to that are for everyone. And we wanted to create something that was special. And I guess, you know, all our girlfriends, they want to catch up with each other, spend time together. So it was creating a space for that, but where they could make new memories instead of talking about the old memories. And I think there's just really a special kind of magic when you get a whole group of women together just having fun, let their hair down. I don't know why, but it's just different. Yeah, there's a certain kind of freedom.

Amy (04:30)

Absolutely. Yeah. And when I first heard the concept and Jodie, we'd met at a networking thing last year and I was just like, yes, he totally resonates with me on this. Yeah, you know, I turned 40 in October, which I actually celebrated at your event, at your October event, which was amazing. So I can definitely vouch for being a tried and tested attendee.

Yeah, it was when you get to this sort of age and perhaps you're not going out as much as you were. There's other responsibilities, you know, we've all had the hangovers and such. Like, it's not really worth the next day. And I always say this, that phrase, borrowing the hours of the next day. You know, if you stay out after midnight now, it is like, God.

The Jodies (05:15)

Yeah, that's right. So our next event runs seven till 11 PM. Yeah. And we're really specific about the type of venue that we want because by the time that you've, if you've got kids, you're organising a babysitter, maybe you need help with your parents or you've got to do something with your pet, you know, and then you've got to get all of your friends together into the same timeline that it's going to work for. It's really annoying if you go out and have a shit night.

So if you're going to do it, you want to make sure that you're going to have a guaranteed great night out. So that's what we're really, we're very discerning about the venues that we use. We only ever use female DJs. Mostly we're using DJs who are in that 35 plus age bracket. We have got one who we just really love. She's a bit younger, but we still forgive her. It is hard to find good female DJs. So if anyone is thinking of doing it, do it. And the other thing, you know, earlier I spoke to that whole, just felt like I was ready to lean into fun and I didn't want to stay in this sort of serious mindset. Jodie's talked about this before. It's like, take supplements, do squats. Are you talking to your children enough? What connection method do you have with your partner? Are you getting eight hours sleep? Are you timing it on a ring or a watch? And it's like, Jesus Christ, we'll just go out and have a good time because actually if you look at any study to do with wellness, all those come lower down and at the top, is walking and dance. Yeah, that is the best thing. And you're out with your friends, you're making new memories. That was one of the things we also talked about. Sometimes you get into this catch up. Yes. And so you meet and you're just telling each other what you've done. And also often, let's be honest, women of a certain age complaining about all of the things you're having to do when you're stressed about. And so we really like the idea of just letting women create new memories. And we always say living a hell yes life. That's what we want. That when somebody sees our event, it's a hell yes answer. Like you said, you saw it and were like, ooh, this really resonates with me.

Amy (07:17)

And it's so funny when you were just saying there reeling off the list, it does sometimes feel like it's a full-time job now just to sort of stay alive, just to adult, you know, it's like between the, well you've got to be getting the meditation in, and the journaling, and make sure you're moving for exercise. And if you actually look at all of the other great tips and advice and all of this and wellness, you're like, well, if I do all of those things, what am I actually doing any work or doing the, you know, shopping and the cooking and all of that? There's definitely that freedom feeling, I think, just generally dancing. And I know myself when we were on your dance floor in October, a girlfriend who's got two little ones now, and she actually said to me, she was like, this is the first time I feel alive and like me. I think since, you know, since having the children. And I think because we are in that, you know, if you do have children more so, but obviously if you're just busy with other things in life, you're constantly thinking about those things. And we put ourselves to the bottom of the pile, really, that our fun can come when there's time for it.

The Jodies (08:19)

Yeah. Yeah. I think women spend a lot of time thinking about the shoulds. And sometimes when I'm talking to women and I'm just like, you can do something just cause you want to, you know that, right? And it feels shocking and it's shocking that that feels shocking. It shouldn't. We need to go out and have fun.

Amy (08:37)

Absolutely. You mentioned as we were starting that you guys come from a brand and marketing background. The name House of Zim, where does that originate from and what does it mean to you?

The Jodies (08:48)

Yeah, well, so Zim means my song, my joy. And then we knew that we loved that word. And then we just had a bit of a play and an experiment. And then we loved the idea of House of Zim because it, you know, I know it sounds so trite, but we do really want to build a community of women who respect that pursuing joy is important. I just got given.

I just got given a voucher for a massage and it's one hour massage and that's lovely. But I know that it was $160. And in my head, I was like $160 for a massage. That's one hour. I mean, women come to House of Zim and it's $99 and they get four hours of joy and they're dancing and they get to hang out with their mates and you know, there's all these things. So I just think it's interesting thinking about putting something as simple as dancing and just going after joy at the...

the top of your list that is going to be good for you. But we just feel really passionately about that.

Amy (09:48)

Absolutely. And what do you think women are actually releasing on a dance floor that they don't have space or time to release elsewhere?

The Jodies (09:56)

I think it's like, I mean, I do love a massage too. You don't get me wrong. You know, I think it's like you were saying before, it's like a freedom of spirit thing. It's like tapping into that kind of carefree, like when you're young and you're just not thinking about it, it's like going to a different place. I think it's freedom.

Amy (10:15)

I think there's an element and I'm actually getting goosebumps now actually, because I think some of the tunes, as you said, it is tapping into some of those songs. So it is almost bringing back those memories as well. When you hear the song, takes you back to some of those nights out at whether it was other friends or, you know, university, college, whatever that really, it was like you had no responsibilities.

The Jodies (10:37)

Yeah. It's in your bones. It's so true. It's that whole remembering who you are and feeling alive things, tapping into something that's just been a bit squashed for a while. Yeah. I was just going to add, Amy, you know, when you hear a song and you can't help but throw your hands in the air, or you have to go, I love this song. And that feeling is so, it's just an instant dopamine release. It's so good. or dopamine hit, I guess, but yeah, I just think it's really important. And I've been thinking about going into a bit of a scientific space, but I was reading a study the other day, and it was saying about how people that dance are that much more empathetic and closer to their friends, because when you're dancing, you have to innately watch the other person see what their body's doing. You're looking at their facial expressions and the joy or, know, if sometimes if they're awkward, hopefully not.

But you're sort of learning all of those things. So your empathy is building and also you're feeling that much of a stronger connection to your friend. And dance floors are really powerful for that. And they have been dropping away. So there's a lot of research coming out at the moment. Because now you see the memes of sort of old dance floors back in the 90s. And now somebody goes to see a DJ and stands there with their phone.

Amy (11:54)

Yeah, and they're still not fully immersive in it because they're like, they're doing it to either record it so your attention split or then they're immediately sharing it on social media. So then you're like, you're sharing this for others, not just for yourself.

The Jodies (12:10)

Right, yeah. So it's so lovely to just be there, be with your friends, have that moment in time to just focus on each other.

Amy (12:19)

Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit further about you two working together because obviously friends, previous business owners together, and sisters a lot. I mean, you can't really get away from each other.

The Jodies (12:29)

She follows me everywhere.

Amy (12:32)

What do you two see that you both bring to the party? You know, do you have clear - right, you're that sort of roles and responsibility on this? How does the dynamic work?

The Jodies (12:42)

She's in charge of delusional optimism. I'm a reality check. The reality. I don't think I'm a pessimist, but you know. That's exactly what might happen. Her brother says to me all the time as well "I'm not a pessimist. I'm a realist." That's true. I am sometimes a bit of a delusional optimist. I do think you need that in business, I think you need absolute conviction in what you're doing to last the distance.

Amy (13:15)

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And how do you make decisions when you disagree?

The Jodies (13:21)

Yeah, that's a good one. Because we do, we're quite different. We're different in our approaches to working. So Jodie is a very deep thinker and deep research. And I like a lot of research, but I, what was that word? A satisficer? The maximiser and the satisficer. Is that what it is? So a satisficer is like, sometimes people can go too deep and they'll spend all this time researching and figuring out.

But in doing all of that, once you make your decision, it's like you've got more information behind you to sometimes doubt that decision. The satisfier sort of goes and looks about and figures it out. And then it's like, yep, I'm going to go with that. And then they don't really have a question in their decision because they haven't got all that other information. I do. I like to move fast. Jodie, she likes to think about things longer and she will slow me down when it is needed. And it absolutely is needed sometimes. But I don't think we really disagree on big things.

No. So really interesting about music though, because obviously music is a really important part of house music. And I'm 44, Jodie's 48. So just that four years /of when we went out/ I think we grew up on different continents. I'm UK. So I think there's songs that are really like, I don't know, ones that you're really passionate about. I'm like, I've heard that before. I didn't think of that. Yeah. And vice versa, obviously.

Amy (14:46)

Course yeah that I didn't even think of that.

The Jodies (14:50)

So we have a lot of good, robust conversations around music. But we always figure it out. Yeah. We're pretty lucky.

Amy (14:57)

Also what's important in any sort of business working partnership, whether it's your actual business or you're just in a team together, is you've taken the time to understand the different working styles and understand where your strengths or differences lie for sure. I could definitely relate to what you were saying because I Alex and I are the same. I'm probably the researcher, the over-researcher and then get stalled where Alex will, you know, the shoot from the hip and just do things and make them happen. But then sometimes without any research. then you're like, ummm.

I'm going to ask you a couple of myth busters. What's the biggest misconception about women only events?

The Jodies (15:35)

That they're for lesbians. The amount of people I get messaging me asking that and I'm like, no, I mean, lesbians are more than welcome, but it's just women having fun with women. And I won't reveal who said it, but a man said to Jodie, so there's not going to be men and women will still have a good time. Nonplus that straight women would want to go out just by themselves. I just was like, honestly, it's so good. It's so much fun.

Amy (16:08)

And we touched on when we spoke the other week, Jodie, that it's not until you go, you realise how you never realise, not that there's an issue with men in a bar or a nightclub, but actually just when it was completely same sex, that extra level of just total relaxation. know someone's not going to, shall we say, pick you up or you're going out and then somebody's trying to talk to you and really, yeah, you're out with your mates and you're trying to catch up with them. You're not looking to necessarily make new mates.

What do people assume about women 35 plus that you think is completely wrong?

The Jodies (16:42)

That they need to do more, that they need to be more productive or manage their emotions better to be happier and satisfied in their life. I just don't think that's true at all. I think they should have the emotions they need to have. And I think they should go at the pace that they need to go at. And I think they should definitely put House of Zim in that mix. Shameless self-promotion.

Amy (17:08)

Yeah, I love it. And what's the most unexpected thing women have said to you after one of the events so far?

The Jodies (17:16)

God, we've had so many good comments. I mean, a woman came up to me and said that she hadn't had that much fun since her wedding, which was, thought 15 years ago, but actually 20 years ago. And I'm just like, that's wild. Like that is really wild. You know, she said that her cheeks were hurting from smiling. It was such a good time. That was unexpected and really beautiful to hear. And we've also had women come up to us and say, my God, I feel like we found our tribe. And that lady, well, there was actually three of them, but so they must've been late fifties, I think. And I've definitely been feeling when I've been going out, I don't feel as comfortable as I used to. And so I can only imagine, you know, with a few extra years on that, that it might feel even more so. But they were amazing on the dance floor, you know, they, they wanted to jump around and have a lot of fun and they really felt like they were allowed the space to do that there. So it was great. Yeah. Maybe the most unexpected thing was the woman that said, can I bring my 18 year old daughter? Yeah.

Amy (18:16)

Once you can actually notice that you're too young for this.

The Jodies (18:20)

I said, I'm so sorry. really want the women coming to understand the crowd that's going to be there. But I love that she was like, this is so good. I want to bring her, but no, not allowed.

Amy (18:31)

This is our space now, you know, it's back our time. And what you said, Jodie, then about, you know, that person saying that maybe the last time they had that much fun was their wedding. Actually, yeah, the reality is that now, you know, we're in our 30s, 40s, some of the time, opportunity to dance, to go out is like, it's a wedding. It's a wedding. Or it's some other function, whether that's again, I don't know, location, proximity, obviously finances. Again, if I think back to those university days and just after.

The Jodies (18:49)

Totally.

Amy (19:00)

You know, you're out two to three times a week. Yeah. And it was a very clear, you know, Thursday was at so-and-so, Friday there, Saturday there. And, you know, it was literally that's what your money was being spent on really. And then outfits to go out. I think, yeah, other life kicks in.

The Jodies (19:17)

The thing is though, yeah, when you're going out all the time, you know, there's lots of fun to be had, but when you're not going out as often, it's too unpredictable. So it's like, maybe there was a good DJ last week, maybe this week there's no DJ. So it's so hit and miss. And that's kind of disappointing if you're not going out.

Amy (19:32)

And the friction, like you said, that logistics to go or organise things, people just put it in their, it's just, too hard basket to bring it all together. And then they're missing out on the fun.

The Jodies (19:42)

Totally. I mean, before we started House of Zim, I always used to say what you were saying about weddings, you know, the only time you really get to have a good dance these days is weddings. And I'm like, now I'm going to have to wait for second weddings.

Amy (19:53)

And then a bit of a downer, but it's a funeral.

The Jodies (19:56)

Honestly, that's what we used to talk about. But now, I mean, we do House of Zim once every two months. We obviously understand that women aren't going to be going out all the time. But I think it's really lovely, as Jodie said, to know that it's a guarantee that you're not really taking the gamble. Whether it's going to be the right music or that the crowd are going to be okay.

Amy (20:18)

Well, before I jump into asking you three of our Really Good Conversation card questions, and you can both answer this or one of you, but does a conversation come to mind that has either changed the direction of your life or had a profound effect on your life?

The Jodies (20:34)

Yes, can I ask? I feel like I'm jumping in. Well, for me, that would be when I first interviewed with Jodie. I'd come to Australia and I was meant to be traveling, but I loved it so much I thought, perhaps I'll stay. I had to convince my best mate who was with me. And I knew that I had six weeks to try and find a role that would sponsor me to stay in Australia. And I'd been going to these interviews and I just hadn't clicked, I really wasn't finding anybody that I liked. I was talking to a lot of recruiters and then I saw this one ad that talked about a shiny disco ball in their studio and that they loved the way that the light hit it and that they were drinking affogatoes and they were, you know, they all were like a family and all different stuff. Anyway, I answered it, but I was like, you know what, I'm just going to go all in. So my cover letter was like, I love disco balls. And I sort of really let all my personality out.

And then Jodie rang me personally because she had responded to the way that I had written, but I thought she was a recruiter. So I was a little bit like not really leaning into the conversation. So I was so over talking to recruiters. And then when I actually arrived at the studio and we got talking, it was just an instant click. And so then Jodie hired me with a view to sponsorship and she did. She allowed me to stay in Australia. She introduced me to her brother who also worked for her.

I then married him, I have my children. So really, this person changed everything about my life. And in the years where I stepped back from Tiny Hunter, which I will say, when you're running a business together, it's really hard, you'll know this. And to tell Jodie that I was stepping back was honestly one of the hardest things I've ever done because I believed in that business and I didn't want to leave it because I know it's really stressful.

Amy (22:05)

That's amazing.

The Jodies (22:25)

But I needed to do that for myself and that's a hard thing for women to do as well. And Jodie was incredible. And I'd go out with her afterwards and be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'd feel like the shell of a person and I just don't know. And she always had time and space for me and we'd go on walks and figure it out or we'd have wine or we'd go out dancing, you know, and she just always was there, even though I'd said, see you, I'm just going to leave you with that business.

And then when I went back to her and said, hey, do you want to do something else, even though you're really busy? She was like, yeah, sure.

Amy (22:58)

I love it. And it's amazing to create that friendship relationship with each other. So yeah, it's super inspiring.

The Jodies (23:05)

Talk about how good I am. No.

Amy (23:07)

The other Jodie is kind of like, yeah, you married my brother, so I kind of have to be nice to you because…

The Jodies (23:15)

She could have married him sooner, so I didn't have to pay all that money to make her a permanent resident.

Amy (23:24)

Brilliant. Right. Well, I'm going to put you on the spot and you can both answer these or however you feel from our really good conversations.

Question number one, describe yourself using only three words.

The Jodies (23:33)

What's in the deck?

Gosh. Curious, loyal, determined.

I'll pass.

Amy (23:52)

You're like, yeah, yeah, those ones for me as well.

Question number two, what is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

The Jodies (24:00)

I mean, when I think about what I want to pass on to my kids, it's like save money, invest, buy property, do all those things earlier. I think that's the only thing that I think about that I'm like, I wish my parents had talked to me about any of that sort of financial side of things. I would be much further ahead if I had. Yep. I'm ever the delusional optimist, kind of the opposite. I want my kids to know that, I guess, really understand that money isn't the be all and end all and that you can find happiness in somebody who makes you tell me, feel calm and going outside and looking at a tree. You know, I sort of do a little bit on the opposite side, I like money too.

Amy (24:44)

Can you balance each other out? The children will be cousins.

The Jodies (24:48)

Yeah, exactly. The aunties do both sides.

Amy (24:50)

Go to the alternate aunties for some, you know, grounding and some blue sky thinking as well. So, love it.

Question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say? And you can both answer this one.

The Jodies (25:04)

I mean, should we answer it for each other or for ourselves?

Fun. I think mine would say "very excitable". I think get a bit over excited. Yeah, yours would say very excitable, PS, get some phone insurance. Yeah. I've lost a lot of phones over the years that the business has had to pay for because I'm so excited. I'm not thinking about where my phone is.

Amy (25:26)

You need to reduce it to just the dummy phone. That's all you get. If you keep losing them, that's what you have.

The Jodies (25:32)

You know what I think mine would say? She might have a poker face, but she really does like you anyway. It is hard to get past Jodie's poker face. For the first year of knowing Jodie, you're going to be like, does she like me? I'm not really sure. But actually she'll be loving you, but she's just got this, she's like an iceberg, you know, only a little bit above the water and so much underneath.

Amy (25:53)

Wow. I think for me, you see all of my emotions, reactions over my face, I'm probably not good at hiding.

The Jodies (25:59)

Well, you know, we're very opposite. Yeah, are. We've got nothing in common. What are we doing here?

Amy (26:06)

Yeah, this is how it works though. Brilliant. Well, and the last question I love to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?

The Jodies (26:17)

You go, we've, we've talked about this and I love your answer. The first one of the second one. Okay. Well, the first thing that comes to mind for me. So my father passed away a long time ago and my mom is quite sick with dementia. And I think you take for granted when you're growing up, all the stories that they talk about family history, what's happened in their lives. And we just had a moment, me and my siblings, where we were like, had a question and we were like,

We've got no one to ask. So I think I would just say to my dad, tell me everything, like tell me all about your life. But this time I would take notes.

Amy (26:55)

Beautiful. Did you want to add one, Jodie?

The Jodies (26:59)

Well, I can add it because I'm sort of part of your family, but these guys had a great granddad called Albert Whelan and he was from a really wealthy family. They were Jewish and he fell in love with a Catholic girl. And so he left the family and he was disowned. He was disowned. But he went on to become really famous in the UK. He was part of the Royal Variety performances. He was famous for whistling, which sounds so random these days, but it was a big skill back in the day. And yeah, he went on, Is Your Life. He had a beautiful book. He was really renowned. And so we just like to hear about what that was like and was it worth it? And did he think about that sliding door moment? Was it worth it walking away from all the money for the love? Jo would say, yes. And I'd say, that would have been good security.

Amy (27:50)

That's the thing, every time they maybe would have had an argument or disagreement, you'd be slightly like, I could be now, you know, chilling on a yacht, not dealing with you.

The Jodies (28:00)

Exactly.

Amy (28:02)

Brilliant ladies. Thank you so much for your time today and everything that you've shared. Give us just a quick snapshot of what's on the horizon for House of Zim in 2026 and, you know, a bit of a shout out of where people can find more information on, on you guys and events and such.

The Jodies (28:19)

So we're at www.houseofzim.com and we're on Instagram and Facebook and we've just started on TikTok. We are hoping to launch a podcast this year, which is really exciting. Just get everybody talking about, you know, how to find joy in their life and how to bring that out at this stage in your life. And we're also creating merchandise. So we've got two awesome t-shirts at the moment, but lots more design in the works and I'm very passionate about creating like a little party capsule wardrobe, you know, these gorgeous glittery jackets and some sequin pants. And yeah, we're excited to do that too.

Amy (28:58)

Brilliant, well best of luck with it all and I look forward to seeing you guys on the dance floor soon.

The Jodies (29:03)

See you then!

Summary

In this episode, Amy is joined by Isiah McKimmie to talk about intimacy, desire and the conversations couples often avoid. They explore why desire changes over time, how comparison and unrealistic expectations create pressure, and why focusing on what gets in the way of connection can be more helpful than trying to "do more".

Guest Isiah McKimmie is a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Overview

With Valentine's Day approaching, this conversation looks beyond the romance and into the realities of long-term relationships; the conversations we avoid, the expectations we carry, and the quiet ways intimacy can start to feel harder over time.

Isiah shares what couples most commonly come to therapy for, and why the issue they arrive with is often only part of the picture. Together, Amy and Isiah explore why sex and intimacy feel so emotionally loaded, how avoidance can slowly erode connection, and why comparison often creates unnecessary pressure.

They also unpack how desire naturally fluctuates across a relationship, the role emotional and mental load play in intimacy, and why removing what blocks connection is often more powerful than trying to add more.

Key takeaways

• Why the issue couples come to therapy with is often only part of what's really going on

• The conversations couples avoid most

• Why changes in desire are normal across long-term relationships

• The impact of emotional and mental load on intimacy and connection

• Why improving intimacy often starts with removing what gets in the way, rather than trying to do more

For more information on

Isiah McKimmie https://isiah-mckimmie.com/

Transcript

Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast.

Today I am joined by Isiah McKimmie, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Welcome to the podcast.

Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

Amy: Thank you for joining me. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation because suddenly we are in February and February is supposed to be the month of love.

Valentine's Day is coming up and whether you're in a relationship or not, that could come with all of its different pros, cons, emotions. And I just thought this was a great time to have a conversation with someone like yourself and chat a little bit more about some of the sex, intimacy, the conversations we're avoiding perhaps in relationships as well. Firstly, before we jump in, what do you think of the world of Valentine's Day?

Isiah: So this is an interesting question. You've put me on the spot straight away. It's such an interesting time for relationships because we come through December and we see the most amount of breakups of any month of the year. And of course, so much strain on relationships. And then we come into January that has dating Sunday, the most number of sign-ups on, on dating apps. Everyone has a renewed hope for their relationships. And then we come into Valentine's Day. And for me, yes, it's lovely to celebrate love, but I think we should be doing this every month of the year and taking actions to strengthen our relationship every day of the year, not waiting for the one special day. So that is my, that is my tension point around it that We can't just wait for Valentine's Day to do the romantic things.

Amy: Yeah. And I feel the same when it comes to, know, Mother's Day, Father's Day and such. And then it is the pressure if you are a daughter or a son, or if you now have children of yourself and it's like, well, what are we doing on this day? And we do put this extra pressure on ourselves. Valentine's been one. And I don't know, it's funny when you're in a longer term relationship, you glaze over these dates a bit more as well.

Let's dive a little bit into your world. And when couples come to see you for therapy or guidance, what do they usually say the issue is?

Isiah: Yeah, so couples really show up to see me for all kinds of reasons. So I really work at the combination of couples therapy, relationship therapy, and also sexology. And so there's a really broad spectrum of challenges in there. Really the three biggest topics that people show up with are for a mismatch in sexual desire, usually because one person has noticed a drop in their desire levels over the course of the relationship and it's starting to cause confusion, anxiety or friction between the couple. They show up because they're in a cycle of arguments that they can't seem to resolve, bickering with each other, arguments going in circles, arguments starting over silly little things, and generally just feeling disconnected. as well. So couples feeling like they're growing apart, they still like each other, but they're wondering if they're becoming more like friends or housemates. they've kind of lost some of the connection and spark that, makes their relationship feel special.

Amy: And how often do you find what they come in asking for help with is perhaps not actually the issue that they're experiencing.

Isiah: Yeah, look, a lot of the time and the way myself and my team look at relationships is very holistically. So we have a lot of research and data that has been gathered over the past 50 years on what makes relationships really strong and lasting and what will predict the end of a relationship. And there are about 30 different factors that we actually measure for in the assessment stage of a relationship. And of course, if you haven't studied this, if no one has told you all the different things that we need to make or break a relationship, you're not gonna even know the things that you're doing that are really right necessarily. And you might be overlooking the things that are getting in the way. And I certainly see this when couples show up. with a mismatch in desire levels. And a lot of couples will say, this really the last piece of the puzzle. It's the only thing we generally have a really good relationship aside from this. And although that might be true when we start asking a few more questions, we often notice that there are some underlying challenges that have just been overlooked because they're just so busy, you know, getting on with life, all these things have kind of crept in slowly. And so that can be things like how the mental load is shared. can be how much time a couple is spending together during the day. It can be how much fun and playfulness they're having. Of course, also the way that they're communicating plays an enormous role in the relationship. And we know that it doesn't matter what couples are arguing about, it's how they're having those conversations together that makes the biggest difference for the success of their relationship.

Amy: Yeah. Gosh, and you touch on their conversations, which is obviously something that we're all about. And what do you find the hardest conversations couples are avoiding or struggle to have?

Isiah: Yeah, I think every couple will have their own hot button topic usually that they know is kind of heading into danger territory. The really common topics are around sex, around finances, around parenting and around housework and chores.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I definitely know sometimes if we're having, you know, Alex and I conversations, it might be getting to the end of the night, just as you're about to go to bed. And then Alex might bring up the topic of finances. And I think about literally tried to go to sleep. Now is not the time to get into a finance conversation.

Isiah: It's so tricky for couples who are so busy and who have children and are not getting privacy for so much of the day, but then you know that something's on your mind. We have really good data that shows couples who are more connected during the day are more likely to have conversations that go well at the end of the day. So for couples who've been disconnected, know, kind of ships passing in the night, they're off to work, they're busy, they get home. You know, they don't even really kind of see each other. They haven't actually checked in with each other. When one of them raises a sensitive topic, if that couple again is disconnected, that conversation is more likely to end with kind of tension or in a heated way afterwards. So it's part of why we want to make sure, at least I do as a couple's therapist, that I'm addressing a relationship holistically. And I'm giving couples tools so that they can strengthen their relationship holistically.

Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And why particularly the topic of sex and intimacy? Why does that feel so emotionally loaded?

Isiah: Sex is such a deeply personal, vulnerable experience. And it's a topic that most of us are not taught how to talk about. know, when, when we often think about growing up, for most of us, sex really wasn't discussed in our household. you know, we might've overheard awkward conversations. We might've got a tiny little bit of sex education, but we're not taught how to talk about it. openly, we're often not even taught the anatomically and physically correct words to use. So when we're not taught that as children and young adults, we are going to struggle with that later in life. and, and that's, you know, consequently what we see in a lot of couples and a lot of people will find it easier to actually have sex than to talk about it with their partner. so you know, showing up in therapy to finally open these topics around sex can feel really vulnerable, which is why actually therapy can also be really helpful because we can really hold couples and support them to have those difficult but really important and sometimes really good conversations.

Amy: Yeah, and wow, it's the same that kind of topic like money, know, when people, again, you may inherit this from their parents and it's like, you know, we don't talk about money, you know, that's crude to talk about, sort of sex is in that same vein.

Isiah: Absolutely, and there can be so much emotion around it. Embarrassment, shame, vulnerability. You know, sometimes it can feel like the success of the relationship is riding on the sexual component when it's become a heated issue between people and that makes it harder to talk about again. yeah, it makes so much sense that that this is tricky.

Amy: And what conversations do you think actually need to happen before couples talk about the topic of sex?

Isiah: So I always want to make sure that couples can talk about any topic well before they do this. And that means not using damaging communication techniques like criticism and blame and shaming a partner. We want to make sure that both people can share how they're feeling about it really well, that they can gently name their underlying needs around something, but that they can also listen and really try to understand their partner on this because so often both partners really have some deep and sensitive feelings about sex. A partner with lower desire is often feeling guilty and worried. about what it will mean for the relationship and they might try to avoid the conversation so they don't have to deal with it. A partner with a higher desire is often feeling rejected and hurt and angry, but underneath that often really sad and lonely. And so they also need to be able to find ways to express that really well, rather than going into again, criticism or starting conversations that would lead to conflict.

Amy: Yeah, gosh, that's great. And you've touched on already, you know, there's so much research and data in this space. And, you know, one thing that I saw you speak about recently was the research suggests that couples on average have sex about once a week. Yes. people hearing that, they might think, great, we're doing it more or we're doing it on the average or others are like, we're falling way below that. So firstly, where does this sort of data actually come from?

Isiah: There are people who work for universities who get to do large scale studies that study this, survey people, that do in-depth interviews. One of the couples therapy methods that I have learned has actually followed couples and kept updated with their relationship is and what's going in their life for about 20 years at a time. we're really lucky to have all of this data and I think often it can be really helpful because if we're just listening to what other people are saying or we're kind of watching the ideal out in the media, then any kind of comparisons to that are often going to be really unhelpful. So having some validated studies are enormously helpful for us to kind of work from and to inform us. Of course though, when we hear things like this is average, it is the average. And especially when it comes to things like the frequency of sex, I would always say to people, it is not about the amount, it's about finding what works for both of you in that and that you and your partner are somewhat aligned around that. It is normal for couples to have different desire levels and our desire levels will fluctuate over time, but we want to find some kind of balance together so that it doesn't become a point of tension and disconnection in a relationship.

Amy: Yeah, because I imagine those sort of averages or stats for people just living in the real world actually may feel quite unhelpful really or make them think they have a problem when they didn't have a problem. Do you think it's helpful for individuals?

Isiah: Look, there are times where I think it can be to have somewhat of a baseline to be able to say, okay, well, you know, actually, even though I might want sex three times a week, that actually isn't kind of the reality of what is going on. To hear that it fluctuates, I think can be really helpful. I have heard a story from a colleague who said she had a couple come in and they wanted to have sex more often, really common. They were having sex about once a year. And, you know, they were saying, we, yeah, we want to have it more often. But as she asked questions about it of why do you want to and how often would you want to, for them, that was all about what they had heard about it. And rather than what they what they really wanted. And so she was able to Really kind of say to them, if you are both happy with having sex once a year, that absolutely isn't a problem at all. But of course, if a couple's coming in and one person is saying, I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling rejected and I'm feeling sad because we used to have sex really frequently. And now it's once a month or less. And it's a really important part of how I feel close to you and how I want to connect with you. Then there's something. for us to look out there about what might be getting in the way of that and how they can work together to strengthen firstly their relationship and then what they can do to find more alignment around sex.

Amy: And have you seen some common trends of what does change desire? You know, I imagine through somebody's, know, sexual lifespan, it is probably going to go in different peaks and troughs, if you will, for various reasons.

Isiah: Yeah. that will be so someone's desire level and the fluctuations in that will often be quite personal to them. So a really helpful way to think about this is as our desire being like a car. like sex drive, if you will. get a car moving, we need to add in accelerators, but we also need to remove brakes. And so sexual desire is really similar. We can't just focus on adding in accelerators, things like sex toys or lingerie or date nights, or, trying to just do it. For most people, a way to increase desire will actually be to remove the brakes that are getting in the way to look at what those are before they start looking at adding in accelerators. So some really common breaks would be tiredness and exhaustion, really common. for women particularly who have young children, sometimes hormonal changes that can cause pain and discomfort, worry that the kids will walk in, changed body image, someone not feeling good about themselves, someone not actually enjoying the sex they are having, someone feeling disconnected in their relationship, feeling overwhelmed with the mental load, feeling like their partner doesn't value. connecting with them and only want sex or feeling pressured to have sex. All of those things would be getting in the way and would often contribute to fluctuations in desire.

Amy: Yeah, that's a great answer. And I actually was going to ask a question, but I almost feel like you have answered it there to say if someone is feeling disconnected and wants to boost intimacy, where is a healthy place to start rather than just, yeah, going, have more sex. But you're highlighting actually consider what's happening and those perhaps breaks and blockers that are going on in your life.

Isiah: Yeah, and again, I think it's important to look at the relationship as a whole. So we use a method that I developed called the relationship harmony method in the therapy sessions and programs that we do. And it really looks at the four key areas and the four key steps that couples need to address for strong and harmonious relationship. We first need to look at vision and goals. It can be so easy for couples to get caught up on what's wrong and what isn't working, but looking for what you want to create together and looking for the positives in the relationship are a really important first step. We also want to build connection and friendship outside of the bedroom. So there's some of those things I mentioned before, like spending time together, going on date nights, having fun and playfulness together, making sure you feel respected by your partner. The next thing is communication, how you talk about difficult topics, how you handle conflict together, how you repair afterwards. And we have a lot of scripts and processes that we use couples to help do this, because if you are not able to do this well, as we talked about, that's going to impact everything. And I can't expect someone to feel in the mood in the bedroom if they're coming from a place of tension or they've just had an argument with someone. And then absolutely, we wanna look at sexual intimacy because sex is a beautiful and important and special part of an intimate partnership for most people. And so we wanna create all of the conditions we can for sex to feel alive and enjoyable for both partners and to be playful and to be something that both people look forward to. And yes, reducing those breaks and increasing accelerators are part of how couples can do that. But again, needs to fit into, it needs to fit into a whole.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's sort of a phrase that came to my mind when I was preparing for this podcast was that old phrase, sex, love and rock and roll. What comes to mind for you when you hear that phrase?

Isiah: It brings to mind how sex can be an alive and fun part of a relationship. I love it.

Amy: think for some, it does over romanticise perhaps intimacy in a way that does set some people up for feeling like they're going to fail because it's not electric alive and...

Isiah: I think there are so many things in our society and in our culture that make relationships so difficult for us. A lot of the unrealistic expectations that we have around, know, when you find the one, everything will just work. And, know, and that you won't need to put in that effort. You know, things like you won't actually need to communicate. during sex because it'll just happen the way it does in the movies and everyone will know exactly the right thing to do. I think there is so much that sets us up to be disappointed and often let down by relationships. And the reality is that relationships are hard. All relationships are hard. Intimate partnerships are especially hard and they do require our effort and attention. They often require us learning new tools and skills to help them thrive and they're things that so many of us really, really weren't taught. You know, and we're just doing the very best that we can. So we think, yeah, there is, there is a lot that we see that, that doesn't support us well in this area.

Amy: And what do you think is perhaps either something missing or a misconception about the stories we tell ourselves about, you know, long-term relationships, long-term love and connection?

Isiah: One of the things that is really important in my work is that desire can be sustained. You know, I think for a long time there was a story that sex just goes in a long-term relationship or when women get to a certain age or you know that couples just go through a period and then it's not important anymore. And we actually know and again through the research, following couples throughout their lives that intimacy and desire can be maintained, but there are certain steps that we need to take around that. So it's possible. And we know that women will often have a spike in their desire levels at any age if they get into a new relationship. And so for women, it's not that desire is over. It doesn't necessarily end with menopause. There are women who are having wonderful, enjoyable sex. well through menopause and beyond and actually say that their desire increases. So it's very, very dependent on the person, but to say that it can be, it really can be an ongoing part of a relationship.

Amy: Brilliant. Because yeah, I think that is what people sort of think, well, that, you know, you've been together forever, these things fade off and things like that. then people buy then into that narrative and story. And like you said, perhaps don't consider putting in the extra effort that we've been talking about. If someone listening is feeling seen by this conversation and wants an honest conversation, how would you encourage them to have it, to start to open the dialogue?

Isiah: Hmm. When you're opening up this conversation, it often really depends on how you think your partner will receive it and where the relationship is. think the important thing is to have the conversation. So we know that couples will often wait years from when they first start experiencing challenges to when they reach out for help and get support. And of course in that, and the average amount of time is seven years, in those seven years, disconnection and resentment build and it gets harder and harder to repair. So I will always encourage people to have the conversation early and to keep having the conversations, to keep checking in about how things are going. And if you do have feedback for your partner about... what you're feeling in the relationship and what you're missing. There's a few steps that I recommend to do that. And firstly, of course, we want to choose a good time. We wanna make sure that they have capacity. We wanna make sure that we're not about to rush out somewhere or hopefully not be interrupted in the middle of something. We wanna let them know our intentions for this because Most people will have good intentions with starting a conversation like this. The intention would be that this relationship is really important to me. And I want to talk about how we can make it better, how we can make sure it lasts for many years to come. So letting your partner know that, letting them know some of the positives to begin with as well. So they don't feel like they're being criticized or attacked. And then if there is something that You want to be different. We want to aim to be as specific as possible so that the person can understand it. And we want to speak using that really common eye language. And I know a lot of people will probably heard that speaking eye. So rather than you're not doing this, you know, I'm feeling this because these needs aren't being met. Can we talk about this? Can we look at what we can do on this together?

Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And I think hopefully that will just give some inspiration or thoughts to anyone listening. What do you wish more people understood earlier about intimacy?

Isiah: Ooh, about sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy?

Amy: both. You'll have to educate us on the, yes, the difference.

Isiah: Well, yeah, I mean, think for me, intimacy, I mean, is so much more than sex, but can include sex. You know, it's how much you know about someone, how much you allow yourself to be seen by them. You know, and sexual intimacy, I think, also goes beyond the act of sex. It's how physically affectionate you are with someone, how much you can allow that kind of sexual aliveness to show. around them, how much you feel comfortable talking about sex with them and sharing some of those inner sexual thoughts. One thing that I wish people knew more of around sex is that it's a skill that we can learn. And just like relationships, most of us weren't taught the skills for really wonderful, enjoyable sex. So much of our sex education focuses on what what not to do, how not to get pregnant, how not to catch an infection, rather than how to make sure that you're enjoying yourself, how to make sure your partner is enjoying yourself, rather than all of the different ways our bodies can experience orgasms or other pleasure, or that enjoyment and sexual intimacy doesn't even need to include penetration or orgasm. And that that we can learn all of these things. We can improve our education and we can learn really practical tools and skills that help both people enjoy it more.

Amy: Brilliant. Thank you so much. Now, before I put you on the spot with some of our really good conversation cards, I am also just going to ask you from your own journey, has there been a conversation in your life that has changed your direction in life?

Isiah: Gosh, that's an interesting question. One particular conversation.

Amy: Yeah, if you can think of anything, it might stand out.

Isiah: No, but I will say through my psychotherapy training and through my intimacy training, I have really learned to have conversations on a deeper level. I suppose this is what we do as therapists. We're helping guide the people we're working with into thinking about things in a different way, in a deeper way, getting to the root cause of what's going on. And those conversations are often really vulnerable. And so as part of the training that I went through to learn how to help other people do that, that is reflected in my own life and in the conversations I have with my own friends and, my own lovers and, you know, and the people that I meet. So I don't think I, I go back to one particular conversation, but that I've learned a new, a new quality of conversations that. that has changed a lot for me.

Amy: brilliant, fantastic. Well I'm now going to ask you three questions from our card. Question number one, what would you say your greatest strength is?

Isiah: Right. I am incredibly patient.

Amy: Not many people are, I don't think.

Isiah: Really, yeah, that is something that I have come to learn about myself through the course of therapy in particular and with couples therapy. And yeah, and absolutely, I would say that I am.

Amy: Brilliant! Question number two. How has your life turned out differently to what you had expected?

Isiah: my goodness, just completely. I would never have imagined why I didn't even know such a thing as a sex therapist and sexologist existed growing up. This could never have been something that I would have imagined for myself.

Amy: And as we touched on before, yeah, sex and things like that weren't really, aren't really talked about with parents around the dinner table. So yeah, you wouldn't have known, that's what I'm going to be when I grow up,

Isiah: Absolutely not and probably would not have been encouraged either, you know, if your child came home and said that.

Amy: Yeah, question number three. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

Isiah: that the quality of our relationships impacts almost every measurable area of our health and wellbeing. And so by improving the quality of our relationships, by learning about our skills, ourselves, by getting tools and skills and practicing doing that better, often with support, if we need to, we can improve our health. and wellbeing and longevity. But if we have children, those benefits then also get passed on to them.

Amy: Wow, yes, that is a powerful reminder. Thank you. And the finishing question I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?

Isiah: I would absolutely ask my grandmother and I think I find it really hard to talk about it without being, becoming emotional around it. I don't know the question that I would ask her. I just know that if I had the chance to ask one more question and to hear from her, I would, I would do that.

Amy: that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for everything that you have shared today. It honestly has been amazing just to hear not only what you see from couples, but again, you've shared a lot of great advice and tips inadvertently as we've chatted that I think people could hopefully take away quite a few positive nuggets for, know, in their own lives and relationships. So, no, I really do appreciate everything you've shared. And if you'd like to just tell our guests where they can find out more about you, perhaps what you've got coming up in 2026 as well.

Isiah: So absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. It is always such a privilege to share on these topics that I know can make such a difference and that we so often don't get to talk about.

So I'm very, very easy to find online. There are not any other Isiah McKimmie out there. So by searching Isiah McKimmie, you will find me on Instagram where I share a lot of information and tools and advice. And you can find my website where we have some free resources and some introductory tools. can also find out about doing therapy with myself and my team. And the really exciting thing that I have coming up this year is we are launching romantic weekends away for couples with the first one being on the Gold Coast at the end of March. They're a Friday night to Sunday. weekend for a number of couples at a time where they get time to relax. There are fun, playful activities that bring them closer. And you'll also hear me talk about more of the things that we spoke about today. So you can also take away some tools and skills for your relationship and get benefits long after the weekend finishes.

Amy: That's brilliant, exciting times ahead and I wish you all the best with those. Thank you. And thank you very much.

Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

In 2025 Amy spoke to a range of amazing guests from across around the world - including UK, US, Cyprus & Australia!

This fun episode is a snapshot of the responses our guests gave when asked the question "If you came with a warning label, what would it say?"

This question always gets a laugh. Ask it to someone in your life and see what conversations spark

Check out all our guests from 2025 and join us in 2026 for more Really Good Conversations.

In this episode, Amy is joined once again by former Sportsgirl and Sussan CEO, award-winning leader, mentor, speaker and author, Colleen Callander.

Colleen kicked off our 2025 guest line-up with "From Shop Floor to CEO: Burnout, Boundaries & Bold Leadership", and now we've come full circle as she returns to close out the year and explore the theme of confidence from her new book, The Power of Confidence.

Amy begins by asking Colleen how her year has unfolded since their January conversation, and what tips she has for avoiding the end-of-year panic if we didn't achieve everything we expected.

From there, they dive into the idea that confidence isn't something we're born with, but a skill and muscle we can build over time.

Colleen unpacks the cost of low confidence, the stories and self-talk that quietly hold women back, and the importance of surrounding yourself with a supportive inner circle. She explains how to challenge your inner critic, rewrite your story, and talk to yourself like you would your best friend.

Colleen also shares her 30-day confidence transformation, showing how small, realistic daily actions can create surprisingly big shifts.

This is an uplifting, practical conversation to help you close the year with gratitude and step into 2026 with more courage, clarity and confidence.

Key Outtakes:

• Focus on what you have achieved and not what you didn't

• Confidence isn't something we're born with – it's a skill we can learn, strengthen and practise over time.

• The stories we tell ourselves can hold us back; changing the narrative can change the trajectory of our lives.

• Low confidence can quietly limit opportunities, decisions and experiences across a decade or more.

• Your inner circle matters – the people around you can lift your confidence or slowly chip away at it.

• Small, consistent daily actions create meaningful confidence shifts, as outlined in Colleen's 30-day transformation.

More about Colleen:

Website https://www.colleencallander.com.au/about

Podcast episode: "From Shop Floor to CEO: Burnout, Boundaries & Bold Leadership"

https://www.reallygoodconversations.com.au/pages/40-from-shop-floor-to-ceo-burnout-boundaries-bold-leadership

What does it take to chase freedom, survive the sacrifices, and rebuild a life on your own terms?

In this episode, Amy sits down with award-winning entrepreneur and bestselling author Tina Tower, founder of Her Empire Builder, to unpack the truth behind ambition, reinvention, and the pursuit of freedom.

Tina shares her journey from launching a tutoring centre at 20 years old to building a franchise before realising that success had come at a cost. She opens up about the years of missing bedtimes, the burnout that followed, and the decision to sell it all in search of a different way to live and work.

They talk about motherhood and identity, and what it means to build something without losing yourself along the way.

They touch on cultural differences Tina has experienced between Australia and the US, the fine line between drive and obsession, and why she believes a "healthy dose of delusion" is essential for entrepreneurs.

Plus, she explains why she's bringing back in-person coaching, the myth of passive income, and what makes online courses work in an age of AI.

A conversation full of honesty, humour, and perspective on redefining success.

Key Outtakes:

• The money hungry 17 year old that fuelled her drive
• The real cost of building a successful franchise business, from burnout to missing bedtimes, and why she still wouldn't change it
• What she learned from selling the business and navigating an identity crisis after stepping away
• Why Australians (and Brits!) need a "healthy dose of delusion" - and how mindset differs from the US
• The future of online courses in an AI world, and why Tina is returning to in-person coaching for deeper connection

For more information about Tina Tower:

• Her Empire Builder https://www.herempirebuilder.com/
• Tina Tower https://tinatower.com/

Have we forgotten how to think for ourselves?

In this episode, Amy speaks with critical thinking and human skills expert, speaker and author Bethan Winn, whose book The Human Edge: Critical Thinking in the Age of AI explores how we can reclaim the essential skills that make us human - curiosity, courage, creativity and conversation.

Bethan shares her journey from teaching in London to moving to Perth, Australia, and building a business that helps people think more clearly and confidently.

A health scare became her career turning point, leading to a keen interest in how we form beliefs, make decisions and question assumptions.

Amy and Bethan discuss what critical thinking really means, how conversation can be used as a thinking tool, the role of curiosity in learning, and why overthinking can sometimes hold us back.

They touch on the risks of outsourcing our judgment to AI, the problem with education systems that reward the "right" answer, and the value of sitting with discomfort and uncertainty.

If you've ever felt overwhelmed by information, stuck in indecision, or simply curious about how to think more clearly in a noisy world, this conversation will help you rediscover the lost art of thinking for yourself.

Key points:

• Bethan's journey from teaching to focusing on critical thinking

• We're often taught what to think, not how to think

• Critical thinking blends courage, curiosity and humility

• The pressure of standardised tests can stifle creativity in education

• Conversation helps us challenge our own assumptions

• Overthinking can paralyse us, sometimes all we need to ask is "What's the next right thing?"

• AI can assist but should not replace human thinking

• Human connection is vital in a technology-driven world

For more information:

Bethan Winn https://www.bethanwinn.com.au/

Part 2: Moral Codes & Living on your own terms

In Part 2 of my conversation with Maz Farrelly, we move beyond the world of television and into the personal. We talk about reinvention, how to know when to walk away, and how to build a life that actually feels like yours.

Maz shares her decision to leave her successful TV career and how bowl of beads in Fiji helped her decide what to do next.

We discuss what it means to live by a moral code, and how her upbringing shaped the values she now brings into every room.

She shares her journey to Australia and how a 3 week visit turned into a more permanent move. We also talk about the power of saying "I don't want this anymore" and acting on it.

Plus, you'll hear the story she's most proud of which left her more inspired than any industry award.

This second half of the conversation is thoughtful, inspiring and filled with life lessons.

You'll laugh, you might tear up and you'll definitely walk away feeling braver.

Tune in to hear:

• Why Maz walked away from a successful TV career

• The simple check-in questions she asks herself every year

• A moving story of impact beyond the screen

• Her family's influence on her values and voice

• What to stop worrying about by the time you hit 40

Find out more about Maz:

Website - mazspeaksglobal.com Showreel - https://vimeo.com/1112852043 LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maz-speaks/

Part 1: The Truth About Reality TV & How to Cut Through the Noise

What does it take to really have the X Factor?

Maz Farrelly has shaped some of the biggest TV shows of our time, from Big Brother to The X Factor, and has worked with global icons from Beyoncé to Prince Charles.

Maz knows how to grab an audience's attention and hold it. Her content has been watched over 8 billion times!

She's an 'Olympic-level storyteller', which is why this is Part 1 of a two-part conversation. We didn't want to cut it; we could have chatted for hours longer.

After years in the TV industry, Maz now brings her storytelling skills into boardrooms, onto stages and into big businesses around the world; helping companies win attention, master storytelling, elevate customer experience and lead like a rock star.

In this first part episode, Maz takes us behind the curtain of reality TV - how she got into the industy, the rise of reality TV and what it taught her about human behaviour.

As someone who grew up watching these shows, Amy found it fascinating to hear how they were created.

She also shares the "doom message" she gave contestants before they entered the public eye, the hard truth about chasing fame, and why being "interesting" is a skill - especially when everyone is shouting.

Maz shares her personal journey, hilarious moments to thought-provoking reflections, this episode is packed with straight-talking wisdom and media-savvy gold.

Key Outtakes:

• How Big Brother broke the rules and changed TV forever

• The unseen consequences of reality TV fame

• What Maz told contestants before they signed up to the shows

• Why charisma and authenticity aren't always the same

• The three-question test she uses to decide if something's "interesting"

And be sure to tune in for Part 2: Moral Codes, Reinvention & Living on Your Own Terms

Find out more about Maz:

Website - mazspeaksglobal.com Showreel - https://vimeo.com/1112852043 LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/maz-speaks/

What does it mean to create your future?

For Natalia Talkowska, it's not just a phrase but a way of life.

Born in communist Poland with dreams of working for Disney or NASA, she took her first flight to London with little money, no connections, and a big sense of curiosity. Today, she is a serial entrepreneur, six-time TEDx speaker, and the founder of Natalka, a consultancy blending neuroscience, storytelling and visual thinking to help organisations simplify complexity.

In this episode, Amy chats to Natalia about her journey from childhood dreams to working around the world.

They explore why visuals are such a powerful tool for human connection, how neuroscience explains the stories that stick, and why doodling might be the key to unlocking creativity and reducing stress.

Natalia's shares her global projects: Doodleledo, which brings people together through doodling, and Good Souls, a movement to combat loneliness and spark meaningful conversations worldwide. Natalia reflects on connection in a digital age, how to navigate information overload, and the role she hopes AI will play in shaping our creative future.

Her energy, optimism and belief in human connection are infectious. Whether you're curious about creativity, fascinated by neuroscience, or simply need encouragement to take your own leap, this conversation will leave you inspired to start creating your own future.

Key Topics:

• Why Natalia believes "there are no walls, no rules" when it comes to creating your future.

• The neuroscience behind why stories and visuals help us connect and remember.

• How Doodleledo grew from a simple idea into a global movement in 27+ countries.

• The mission of Good Souls: fighting isolation by connecting one billion people.

• Natalia's hopeful but realistic view of AI's role in creativity and human imagination.

For more information:

https://www.natalkadesign.com/

Doodleledo https://www.doodleledo.com/

Good Souls: https://www.instagram.com/_goodsouls/