Recovering Evangelicals

A Baptist pastor and Yale theologian tells how he finds additional depth for his Christian faith by learning from other world religions.

Our previous two guests — Philip Yancey and Frank Schaeffer — told us how they recovered from the toxic Evangelicalism that they grew up with. The former found it possible to recover an entirely different Evangelicalism, while the other felt the best solution was to cut his losses and leave Christian faith behind.

Our guest today takes a third approach: Dr. Greg Mobley found it possible to take the Evangelical faith that was handed to him by his parents and his community, and bring that to a whole new level through music, poetry, philosophy …… and other world religions. Not just other strands of Christian faith, but deepening his theology by marinating in Judaism, Islam … even Eastern religions.

It was fascinating that he began as a Southern Baptist, had to go to Yale to become deeply familiar with Judaism, and later had to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to fall in love with Roman Catholicism.

One of the lessons he learned was how “everyone sees their own religion as full of grace and compassion, and all other religions as harsh and demanding.”

Another important insight: “Judaism and Christianity are siblings, separated at birth. ….. That the two movements eventually separated made possible the preservation of each. …. Jews and Christians can find lost fragments of themes of their respective faiths …. by talking to each other.”

And it was great how he liberally sprinkled musical references all through his commentary … his personal love for Blue Grass, but also references to the Band, the Monkeys, Jesse Winchester, Marc Cohn, Jimmie Dale Gilmor, Ray Charles, Mumford and Sons, and even Stompin’ Tom Connors. And he wasn’t just referring to their musicality: he finds important philosophical and theological nuggets in their lyrics. “I think the three greatest Christian theologians of my lifetime are Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, and Leonard Cohen … three Jewish guys, but they could see us and the beauty of Christianity.”

We learned so much from Greg; tell us what you think …..

To find more about Dr. Gregory Mobley, see his faculty web-page.

If you enjoyed this episode, you might also like our previous conversation with Dr. Justin Barrett , who shared a Christian perspective on humans evolving a mind which was naturally tuned to search for and find the divine and to create religions.

Episode image from Pixabay.

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An informal but deeply personal conversation with renowned Evangelical and ExVangelical author Frank Schaeffer.

Last week, we looked at a high-profile Evangelical author who grew up in the Evangelical world and fully embraced that worldview until reaching an age where he could assert some independent thinking and autonomy. By then, he had encountered a few too many questions that eroded the foundation of his Evangelical faith, and came to the point that he completely and utterly rejected that Evangelical faith that was handed to him.

The exact same things could also be said about another high-profile Evangelical author: our guest this week, Frank Schaeffer. But where Philip Yancey was able to find a new form of Evangelical faith that worked for him, Frank found he had to become an atheist. Well, a form of atheist: Frank calls himself an atheist who believes in God and prays every day. Interestingly, both Philip and Frank told us how they could see God better through nature, art, beauty and romantic love, than they could through their Evangelical communities!

Frank Schaeffer had an insider’s look at the Evangelical world unlike most other people. As the son of Francis Schaeffer — a Presbyterian pastor, theologian, philosopher, and art lover — he grew up in a small Evangelical community that ministered selflessly to broken and rejected people. His father’s writings soon caught the attention of Evangelical publishers and leaders, and they quickly found themselves writing best-selling Evangelical books, speaking before crowds of thousands, producing Evangelical films, flying across America on Jerry Falwell’s private jet, appearing frequently on national Evangelical TV networks like 700 Club, and meeting personally with American presidents and other Evangelical world leaders.

Frank started walking in Francis’s shoes, on a trajectory which would have had him continuing a nepotistic climb up the Evangelical leadership ladder. But the hypocrisy and corruption that Frank witnessed firsthand, behind closed doors and out of sight from the Evangelical sheep, was a caustic soul-destroying acid. He saw how the sausage was made ….. and he couldn’t stomach what he saw. Out of self-preservation, he rejected that Evangelical world.

But not carte blanche. When we asked whether “Evangelicalism” is still recoverable or needs to be forsaken, he was very careful to distinguish between the world of Falwell, prosperity gospel, and Christian nationalism of modern American Evangelicalism, from the grass-roots, selfless, humanity-serving Evangelicalism of his childhood.

And so Frank still retains certain core elements of his spiritual formation. He wrote a book with the title: “Why I am an atheist who believes in GOD“; look at the cover and notice his choice of font on that last word. He told us that he “was conditioned to pray and feels like his day hasn’t started without it.” And that “We are spiritual beings looking at a physical world that is purely mechanical and we cannot put these things together. It does not make sense. And so, it isn’t like we’ll find some big answer to the big question that makes sense. We don’t have the capacity to make sense of our most basic situation: that we are biological beings looking at the world through spiritual eyes.” And he continues to devote his time and energies to social justice and the prophetic ministry of speaking truth to power.

As always, tell us your thoughts on this story …

If you enjoyed this episode, you really should listen to its counterpart from last week with Philip Yancey, and you may also enjoy an interview with one of our listeners who grew up in the Evangelical world, but found he had to leave that and yet misses certain aspects of that life.

Find more information about Frank Schaeffer at his website and his podcast. He also recommended his books Crazy for God, Portofino, and Why I’m an atheist who believes in God.

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One of the most recognizable Evangelical authors today; and yet you won’t recognize the self-portrait that he gave us in this conversation!

Philip Yancey is one of the most recognizable Christian authors in Evangelicalism today. He has written dozens of books over the past five decades. 15 million English copies have been sold, and they’ve been translated into 40 languages. Two of those books (The Jesus I Never Knew ….  and What’s So Amazing About Grace) have won the Book of the Year Award from the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association.

I’ve long had a mental image about Philip that he had always been a Christian, solidly convinced of his theology … that he grew up in a very typical, middle-of-the-road, white, middle-class to upper-class, Evangelical world, and in a stable, middle-of-the-road strand of Christianity … had a relatively typical and uneventful life … and was otherwise straight-laced, soft-spoken, and not overly emotional. You probably have/had the same preconceptions.

We would be wrong.

Now you’ll have to add to that list the fact that he was a born-and-bred racist … that he held KKK leaders up in high esteem, and fully accepted racial segregation … that he spent years totally rejecting Christianity, even spitting in the face of it … and that his family life included a lot of physical, verbal, and emotional abuse, substance addiction, and mental illness.

And in the middle of all that, Philip tells a story of a profound conversion experience … a powerful, life-changing spiritual encounter.

Philip has a unique perspective on Evangelicalism, which is the focus of this podcast. We originally wanted to talk to him about his love/hate-relationship with that world, even juxtaposing his perspective against Frank Schaeffer’s, with whom we’ll be talking next week.

But irrespective of his insights re. Evangelicalism, even just hearing Philip’s life story alone is worth the price of admission, folks. And when we asked Philip to sum up at the end of our session with him, he put this pearl of wisdom on the table: “pain redeemed impresses me more than pain removed.”

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

Find more information about Philip Yancey, his blog, his books and upcoming appearances at his website.

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episodes #38 and #39, where we give a 101 on Evangelicals and Evangelicalism.

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Comments/questions from our listeners and members prompt this deep-dive into this most important of Christian holidays

It’s always tempting to do a blog or episode every year on Christmas and on Easter. They’re both such easy, ready-made topics, with many obvious angles and discussion points. Bloggers and podcasters find them hard to resist. In almost 10 years of blogging and podcasting, I’ve only given in once. But this Easter season, several comments/questions from our listeners and our private Discussion group prompted us to weigh in on certain points:

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like episodes #18 (Original Sin), #82 (Jesus: Jewish Messiah) and #79 (humans evolving toward humanity 2.0).

Episode image by Gerd Altmann from Pixabay.

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A potpourri of our own ideas and perspectives on a variety of comments/questions sent in by our listeners.

It’s been months since we looked through the boxes full of comments and questions that our listeners have sent to us through our web-sites, Facebook, emails, and podcast providers. Last week, we abstracted from our short list of favorite picks all the comments/questions that pertained to our 4-part Left Behind mini-series. Today, we look at the ones that were “left behind” after that abstracting!?

So, which comments/questions did we cover?

As always, tell us your thoughts on these points …

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode #101 (divine inspiration), #57 (origin of the Old Testament), #12 (Evangelicalism and the Gospel), as well as #82 and #83 (the humanity/divinity of Christ).

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Piecing together what the previous four episodes showed us about the End Times and Christ’s second coming.

After four weeks of talking to experts on various aspects of “End Times” theology, this episode is our chance to put together many pieces of the puzzle into a coherent picture. In part, this means we have to pull apart some pieces that had been put into the wrong place, or even didn’t belong to this puzzle, and add in some new pieces that we got from those previous four episodes. This debriefing was guided in part by feedback we received from our listeners as the mini-series unfolded (so it’s a little bit of a mailbag episode too).

We talked a bit about a new theological worldview that emerged in the 20th century — “Dispensationalism” — which is responsible for the wild distortion of End Times theology within Evangelical circles today. And we contrasted that against another theological worldview — “Preterism” — which sees the highly symbolic images and events described in the Book of Revelation as having been fulfilled in the 1st century.

We also felt we had to delineate one more time the negative impact of this traumatizing and damaging form of End Times theology, to impress on the listeners why this topic was worth devoting four episodes to exploring it, and why it needs to be pushed back on.

Another question we debated: why the Book of Revelation is even in the Bible in the first place, if it’s so problematic and easily misunderstood. My point of view is that in the same way that Genesis is not a science book, Revelation is not a history book. Instead, it’s there in our Bible because the human authors thought that way, and human editors compiled the book into the canon we call Scripture. At the same time, divine inspiration could also come into play here in the same way that we suggested divine inspiration was behind the sordid story in Judges 19, 20 and 21 (Episode #98): the passage doesn’t so much give readers an accurate perspective on the Divine, but exposes the flaws of the human heart.

Both Scott and I also compared our respective personal positions on whether the world will end in a violent, divinely-orchestrated destruction, or whether we eventually meet up with some kind of cosmic higher power (alien race? God?) that helps us get our act together; and what to do with the many passages predicting Christ’s Second Coming … “riding on the clouds”.

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode #82, where we talk specifically about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.

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A close look at apocalyptic literature written before Jesus (and with which he interacted), and long after him (including John’s book of Revelation).

In this fourth and final episode of our miniseries on “the End Times”, we talk to Dr. John J. Collins (Prof. Old Testament; Yale Divinity School) about ancient Apocalyptic literature … a large genre/category of literature which deals specifically with End Times thinking in various groups of people at various times in history. We learned that there were two waves of Apocalyptic writings in and around the Jewish and Christian communities two millennia ago.

One wave occurred two or three centuries before Christ, in response to the rise of the Greek Hellenic Empire which massively shifted world thinking, politics, science, philosophy, and religion at that time. This is also the period in which Daniel writes his book, and it is this wave of literature with which Jesus and other religious leaders of his era interacted (Jesus referring to the Son of Man and the coming of the Kingdom of God, being two great examples). But that literature had no mention of the rising of a personified Antichrist, or any “mark of the Beast”, or any “Rapturing” of believers. Nor did Jesus talk about these things.

A second wave of this kind of literature came out in response to the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Roman Empire a few decades after the death of Christ. A whole new geopolitical situation … a whole new national enemy … and a whole new set of questions for Jews and Christians alike. This would be the wave in which we find John’s book of Revelation, and his VERY different view of “the End Times”. And Dr. Collins also told us a bit about why John’s writing is so full of violence and symbolism and metaphorical imagery.

And then, two thousand years later, Evangelical Christians with a very “high view” of scripture take this book of Revelation, read it very literally, and apply it all directly to their own geopolitical situation: the church struggling against a fully modern, Westernized, American, narcissistic and consumeristic worldview.

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

Find more information about Dr. John J. Collins at his faculty web-page at Yale.

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like Episode #33, in which we talked quite a bit about predictions of the End of the World, including several made by Harold Camping. You may also enjoy a previous one in which Kerry Noble gave his dramatic personal story of being completely immersed into an Apocalyptic Evangelical paramilitary group who thought they needed to prepare for the Second Coming through guns and bombs (Episode #92).

Episode image by Enrique Meseguer from Pixabay.

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The “Left Behind” series of books and movies have sown seeds of fear, doubt and anxiety, with life-changing and life-long psychological impact.

We’ve already heard in the previous two episodes that many people who grew up in the era of the “Left Behind” series of books and movies were negatively impacted by those forms of entertainment/indoctrination. Some would say they were traumatized, the most frequent complaint being the fear of having missed the Rapture or of somehow being made to take the mark of the Beast. But many also experience life-long and generalized anxiety, fear, and depression which they trace back to those formative years. Those books and movies also shaped the minds of that generation: they are always suspicious of every multi-government initiative being the leading edge of “the one world government” … of rising politicians and celebrities being the soon-to-be-revealed Antichrist … of every innovation in banking being “the mark of the Beast”. And polling agencies tell us that they’re less likely to care about pollution, climate-change, rising sea levels, and habitat destruction … and the respondents will explain it’s because they think “Jesus is coming back any day, and then it’s all gonna’ burn anyway.”

That’s quite a legacy that “Left Behind” has …. left behind. Which is why we’ve decided to produce four episodes in response to the recent release of another “Left Behind” movie back in January. Sure, this movie probably won’t be a blockbuster by Hollywood standards. It will probably only last a few weeks in big chain theatres, and maybe a bit longer in the smaller independent ones. But you can be certain that it will continue to be played in Evangelical churches, youth groups, rallies and colleges … and individual homes … across North America all year, maybe longer that. And it will be subtitled for release in other countries. We heard last week of the burgeoning wave of Pentecostals in the Southern hemisphere  — one estimate says a billion by 2050 — who fully embrace this very toxic form of Apocalypticism (and many share a border with Muslim countries). So this recently-released movie will certainly be seen by many more people than the Hollywood box office numbers might indicate, and will shape the minds of yet another generation of Evangelicals!?

In this episode, we’re going to talk to two clinical psychological experts who specialize in a new and growing form of mental trauma: spiritual abuse. They come from two opposite ends of the faith spectrum: one an atheist Exvangelical, and the other a firmly-committed believer. But they share the common perception that this “End Times” thinking is dangerous and destructive. We’ll hear their stories and insights regarding the damage experienced by their clients.

We’ll also ask both of them whether it’s possible that Apocalyptic-thinking is an inherently human trait. Both of them agreed that it looks like it is: our evolutionary heritage engrained into us a constant fear of mortal threats all around us waiting to pounce. As Marlene put it: “our nervous system is wired to be afraid … that’s what we’re starting with”. And Evangelical producers of these “Left Behind” books and movies are exploiting that, and “dialing it up to eleven”!

As always, tell us what your thoughts are about this topic …

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy a previous one in which Kerry Noble gave his dramatic personal story of being completely immersed into an Apocalyptic Evangelical paramilitary group who thought they needed to prepare for the Second Coming through guns and bombs (Episode #92). You may also want to listen to our previous episode with Dan Koch talking about clergy abuse (Episode #89), or two other interviews with Janice Selbie (Episode #46) and Marlene Winell (Episode #47) dealing with religious abuse.

Find more information about Dan Koch at his web-site, his podcast, his music page, and this link to a free clinical tool that he developed for assessing spiritual abuse.

Find more about Dr. Marlene Winell at her web-site and that of her counselling service called Journey Free, which offers help for individuals seeking one-on-one recovery coaching; a group support (online forum and virtual support meetings 3 times a month); a professional development program; and upcoming retreats (the next one being June 8-11 in Cape Cod).

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A historian takes us on a journey through two millennia of evolution of Christian understanding about “the End Times”.

In last week’s episode, we compared two pictures of “the End Times”: one drawn by modern day Evangelicals, and the other drawn by Jesus while he was teaching in Palestine. And we found that those two pictures look completely different; the modern Evangelical picture always includes four main ingredients which Jesus’ picture just does not have:

I fully expect push back on that claim, so let me be clear: there are elements in the Gospel accounts which can be manipulated and distorted to resemble those four ingredients (John’s Book of Revelation is a different story). And the first two of those are the ones that are the biggest causes of anxiety and fear in people who suffer psychological trauma from the Left Behind books/movies (we’ll explore that psychological perspective next week).

We wanted to understand how/why/when that understanding of “the End Times” changed so much in the two thousand years since Jesus. So we brought in Dr. Gord Heath, a Professor of Christian History, to take us on a journey through church time. At each important stop along that journey, I keep asking him: “is this where they start talking about the Rapture or the mark of the Beast?” [Remember: #1 and #2 in my list above, and which cause the most psychological trauma] And the same answer keeps coming up: “well …. no, actually.” Not until we get to the 19th and 20th centuries do we find that those four elements are brought in by a strand of thinking referred to as Dispensationalism. It’s completely a modern invention (when we’re measuring on a time-frame stretching 2000 years)!?

We also found out last week that this Dispensationalist-invented version of “the End Times” is especially prevalent in the Evangelical world, Pentecostals being the strongest proponents of all. The only reason why I single this group out so starkly is that when I asked our expert historian to try to look over the horizon and speculate how this End Times thinking might change over the NEXT few hundred years, he also said that this theology is a “critical mark” of a Pentecostal thinking which has been on a dramatic growth streak in the southern hemisphere (Latin America, Africa, and Asia). In fact, he said they were the fastest growing strand of Christianity, and are estimated to reach over a billion across the globe by 2050! And here’s his ominous warning: that volatile mixture of exploding numbers of people looking forward to a global Apocalyptic Ending are in many cases situated … on the borders of many Islamic countries. You better buckle up your seat-belt, folks!?

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

If you enjoyed this episode, you might also like the other one we did a year ago on “the End of the World” …. episode #33, or one we did previously with Dr. Heath, looking at the evolution of the Evangelical world and how it morphed away from Jesus’s Gospel Message … episode #39.

Find more information about Dr. Gord Heath at his faculty web-page.

Episode image by Myriams-Fotos of Pixabay.

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The latest sequel to a long series of books and movies just hit the cinema!?

Yes, you read it correctly … yet another sequel in the Left Behind / Thief in the Night franchise of books and movies has come out. As if the previous ones which began coming out as far back as the 70s and 80s weren’t embarrassing and destructive enough.

We talked to Dr. Aaron Ricker, whose current major research interest is Apocalypticism … in the Bible … in comic books … in modern action hero movies … and in the zeitgeist of our day. And together with him, we first looked at some of the statistics gathered by polling agencies re. the various beliefs pertaining to “the End Times,” the Antichrist, and “the Rapture” in society today (well, mostly in Americans). [Links for these data can be found below]

We also looked at the fact that every Left Behind movie or book has the same four ingredients: the “Rapture”, an Antichrist who violently takes over the world, the “Mark of the Beast”, and global destruction. These are the hallmark features of this genre. This isn’t just a nerdy fun-fact: the reason it’s so noteworthy is that the “End Times” scenario that Jesus described doesn’t have any of these four ingredients!? At least not in any way that modern day Evangelicals understand these things. Disagree? Check out how we justify that claim.

Finally, we looked at some of the dangers and costs — to individuals as well as to society — of this “End Times” thinking:

Next week, we’re going to look at the history behind this way of thinking: how it has evolved over the past two millennia. And the week after that we’ll hear from two clinical experts who specialize in this kind of trauma.

As always, tell us what you think …

If you enjoyed this episode, you might also like the other one we did a year ago on “the End of the World” …. episode #33.

Our guest, Dr. Aaron Ricker, can be contacted at [email protected]

Statistical polls discussed in this episode are available at Pew Research and at Lifeway Research.

Episode image by Gerd Altmann from Pixabay (and modified). Movie promotional image from Amcomri Entertainment and Stonagal Pictures.

To help grow this podcast, please like, share and post a rating/review at your favorite podcast catcher.

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