Refuse to Subscribe

New York Times bestselling author Marjan Kamali joins Kira and me for a conversation that starts with her novel, The Lion Women of Tehran, and very quickly becomes about so much more.

If you’ve listened to our book club episodes before, you might remember Kira bringing this book up during our very first one- and after finally reading it myself, I immediately understood why. At its heart, The Lion Women of Tehran is a story about friendship, but underneath that story are all of these currents about identity, culture, family, the things we internalize about ourselves, and the scripts we’re handed before we’re ever old enough to question them.

And THAT is where this conversation goes.

Marjan talks about growing up across seven countries and how that shaped the way she sees humanity; the Iranian women who inspired Homa; what historical fiction can give us that a textbook sometimes can’t; and the strange, wonderful ability stories have to make someone thousands of miles away recognize themselves in a life that looks nothing like their own.

We also get into the relationship between fiction and healing, the closure we sometimes get through stories that we never get in real life, and the details readers pick up on in The Lion Women of Tehran.

But my favorite part may be where we eventually land: on the scripts Marjan herself was handed, the ones she’s spent her life refusing, and a perspective I somehow hadn’t explored yet on a podcast literally called Refuse to Subscribe…

Sometimes we had a reason for following the script.

Sometimes it was survival.

And that doesn’t mean it’s too late to change it.

This is such a beautiful conversation about books, friendship, Iran, identity, art, humanity, and giving ourselves a little more grace as we figure out who the hell we actually want to be.

SPOILER WARNING: We absolutely get into the details of The Lion Women of Tehran, so if you haven’t read it yet, go grab yourself a copy from a local bookstore and then come back!

Also discussed: The Stationery Shop and Together Tea.

Marjan Kamali:

Instagram: @marjankamali7

https://marjankamali.com

Jonny:

Instagram: @jonnythyne

Come on the show: https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

Kira:

Instagram: @kiraleclair

This week I'm switching things up. After two pretty deep-dive episodes, I brought on my friend Matty Durkin from the Pop Corner Pod. He's a self-proclaimed HISTORIAN of all things pop culture, with a focus in the Real Housewives.

On paper, pop culture and Refuse to Subscribe shouldn't mix... this show is about going against the grain and pop culture is basically the opposite. Except- not always... as Matt proves in this episode. Matty made a case good enough that I'm actually considering diving into some reality TV (maybe).

My favorite part of this one: we get into pop divas- how they became icons (specifically for the gay community), why it's always the women and never the guys, and the real estate they take up in our lives. Turns out there's a reason for that.

This one's pure levity. Pour yourself a drink, this is reality pundit commentary with a splash from my well. Matty brought the bold takes, I brought the questions. Enjoy the banter.

About Matty:

Matty Durkin hosts the Pop Corner Podcast, covering all things pop culture with a heavy dose of Real Housewives drama. By day, he works in humanitarian fundraising at Concern Worldwide. Find him wherever you get your podcasts.

https://open.spotify.com/show/74e5E437XXEEEs78BK09Hv?si=8c226539da634ed3

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-pop-corner-with-matty-durkin/id1733899456

Instagram:

@mattydurkin

@thepopcornerpod

Kira and I sat down for what was supposed to be the Lion Women of Tehran book club episode and instead just riffed for almost an hour. I'd apologize, but the conversation was killer.

First - the big news. We're not talking Lion Women of Tehran today because in a few weeks we're bringing MARJAN KAMALI, the actual author, onto the podcast. You have a few more weeks to grab a copy and read it before she's on, so go get it from your local bookstore, not some faceless website, and thank me later... the food writing alone will ruin you.

Instead, Kira and I somehow went from The Handmaid's Tale to the Stanford Prison Experiment to AI to what we want people to remember about us when we die. No wine was involved. We don't know how we got there either.

What's in this one:
-Why Gilead feels less like fiction every single day, and what The Handmaid's Tale gets so unsettlingly right about how fast a society can turn
-The Stanford Prison Experiment, what it actually showed about roles and groupthink, and a quick fact-check we owed you (listen for it — we corrected ourselves because Refuse to Subscribe means we hold ourselves to it too)
-How propaganda and algorithms are doing the same thing to us in real time... and why you need to be policing your own feed
-AI, creativity, and the genuinely terrifying conversation Jonny can't stop thinking about (shoutout Tristan Harris)
-I asked Kira Passion vs. reason, and what we actually want people to say about us at the end

If you haven't read The Handmaid's Tale, or haven't watched the show, fix that before you RElisten to this- I promise it hits different once you have.

Go back and listen to our very first book club episode if you haven't, linked below, where Kira first put Lion Women of Tehran on my radar.

And if you've got questions for Marjan, send them our way-Instagram, my website, Kira's DMs, all linked below. We're asking her your stuff too.

Last thing: if this show means anything to you, hit follow and drop a 5-star rating right now before you do anything else. It costs you nothing and it means everything to us.

Stay curious. Question everything. And refuse to fucking subscribe.

-Jonny

First Book Club Episode EVER (The Books That Make Us):

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6mzlwmikrTR42AB9jvaYda?si=HhvRhELxTq6Eq116OAOTDQ

Marjan Kamali's "Lion Women of Tehran" Recipes :

(Hit "Download Recipes" and thank me later)

https://marjankamali.com/books/the-lion-women-of-tehran/

Tristan Harris on "Diary of a CEO: 'AI Expert: Here's What the World Will Look Like in Two Years'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFU1OCkhBwo

Instagram:

@jonnythyne

@kiraleclair

Formal Reach Out for the Show:

https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

This week I have Justin Deeley on the episode. You may know him from 90210 or Geography Club, or my personal favorite, and where I know him from, Drop Dead Diva.

This whole conversation started when we were at work one night at the restaurant we both work at, and he brings up this 30 hour stint he had in Paris where he found himself at two in the morning in a restaurant having dinner with his wife, with a live jazz band, and this gentleman next to him posed him with the question, passion or reason?

I was blown away by this really simple, albeit deep, question. So I said let's get on the podcast and talk it out.

We begin there, and from there we really dive deep into the essence of human connection and how disconnection is behind many of our societal pitfalls today. We take it further into how you can find what you're passionate about in life, and then come out the other side on finding community and feeling fulfilled. We wrap up with Justin hearing some thoughts from other brilliant people I know on passion versus reason, and then him sharing an answer to a really vulnerable question, ending with his strong advice on it all.

Justin's book recs and Patsy Rodenberg's videos are linked below.

I loved every second of this one. Enjoy.

Book Recs:

The Master and His Emmisary by Iain McGilchrist

The Cross of Redemption by James Baldwin

Patsy Rodenberg Talks:

The Second Circle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub27yeXKUTY&feature=youtu.be

Why I Love Theatre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9jjhGq8pMM&feature=youtu.be

If you came out early, this probably isn't your story. If you're still in it, it might be exactly your story.

My boyfriend Andrew hid for more than a decade. He figured it out young and buried it, dated girls, deepened his voice to fit in, watched straight porn after gay porn so it would "cancel out", and told himself there was a right time coming... and then waited so long he almost forgot he was waiting.

If you know that feeling. The one where everyone in your life has a version of you that isn't real, and you're so used to maintaining it you barely notice anymore. This episode is for you.

Andrew has never told this whole thing out loud before. Getting caught by his parents for watching gay porn (we've all been there!) A fear he couldn't even explain to himself. The fraternity he joined that became one more place to hide, but eventually be accepted. The first kiss he was so scared of that he kept it a secret even from the people he trusted. And then the part nobody tells you about.

He came out, and the world he was terrified of did not end. EVERYONE loved him. The only person who hadn't accepted him yet was him.

Here's the thing we keep coming back to, and the thing I want you to actually hear. You don't have to come out to the whole world tomorrow. You don't have to have it figured out. You just need one person. One safe person who will sit in your corner and not flinch. Everyone has at least one. A friend, a cousin, somebody. Find them. That's where it starts.

And if you're not in the closet but you love someone who might be, you can BE that person. You have no idea how much that one safe spot matters until you're the one who needs it.

This one means a lot to me. Andrew was brave as hell to share it. Give it a listen all the way through, and if it hits, send it to the person who needs it. You never know whose ear it lands in.

Side note: Recorded three times. Technical chaos every time. But we kept it anyway because some stories are worth fighting for. Apologies for any off-brand audio.

Stay curious and question everything.

If you need support:

https://www.thetrevorproject.org

If you are a parent, friend, sibling, or just plain ally and want more information or want to know how you can support LGBTQ+ people:

https://pflag.org

Past episodes to catch up on:

First episode EVERRR with Nicole & Billy Cundiff, real estate tycoon and former NFL player:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6nOjMcT0hdRkYVm8WRKuFO?si=hQsQIKLkSMa3dwpa86y6yQ

Some of the best advice I've ever received (Build Your Own Fucking Table) from my friend Maria Bertrand, filmmaker:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2EK0CDgpuhNsTOsGcKGdiB?si=j4tPXQSNT86pXgLSudu0Jg

A restaurant regular who turned into a dear friend who I have had some of the most enlightening conversations with, Craig Smith, founder of Swiss America and Author:

Part 1: https://open.spotify.com/episode/749gt5pccDvdjB753N5t86?si=p5ItsVbTSZaoGpIMd4pjqg

Part 2:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7g7OzJXIXqXA7GDziBILdn?si=9OO0CLlOTSeGyxWsb_o2HQ

https://open.spotify.com/episode/78SdJXuF7cT2UPrMa3Ea2Y?si=lDnZmCy-RLGsUvpc51fbmw

Pride didn't get easier, it just got quieter for a while. This episode breaks that quiet.

My guest is Jen LeBlanc: out since 1993, founder of the Pride Empowerment Network in southern New Hampshire, and the writer behind a gorgeous piece on why Pride still matters that's been living in my head since the day I read it. We talk about coming out to her mom in a Sears parking lot, the Glad Day Bookstore on Boylston Street where she found her own history hiding in plain sight, the women's studies class that changed everything, and why she thinks the backlash against trans people from inside our own community might be the most urgent conversation we're not having enough.

This one's personal and it's exactly why Pride still matters.

Why Pride Month Matters by Jennifer LeBlanc:

https://www.nashuaindependent.com/why-pride-month-matters-in-our-community/

Pride Empowerment Network: https://www.instagram.com/pensouthernnh/

New Hampshire Organizations:

https://603equality.org

https://manchestertrue.org

https://blmnh.org

Massachusetts Organizations:

https://gayforgood.org/boston/

https://glisten.org/our-chapters/

https://www.bagly.org/volunteer

SoCal Organizations:

https://lalgbtcenter.org

https://gayforgood.org/losangeles/

https://www.eqca.org

https://www.blmla.org

Happy Pride, everyone. I'll be honest, I got a bit emotional in all of the ways while recording this one.

This week I'm going solo to talk about what Pride actually is, why we celebrate it so loud, and why it matters more this year than it has in a long time. We start with a Margaret Cho bit that had me cackling (thank you, Confession Hole with Eric Willz), we call back to last week with the legendary Jackie Beat, and then we go where this show always goes, which is deep. I tell you the full story of Bobby Griffith and his mother Mary, the one I only gave you the highlight reel of last year. We get into Harvey Milk, Matthew Shepard, the brand-new numbers on where this country actually stands, and what is happening to trans rights right now, here and around the world.

And then we climb back into the joy, because the joy is the whole point. The joy is the resistance. The joy is what freedom actually is when it gets a body and a dance floor.

And if you have ever been on the fence about any of this, I made this one for you too. I promise I don't yell.

If this moved you, do the thing I ask at the end. Send it to the person who came to mind while you listened. You know exactly who that is.

Want to talk, or need a safe space? My DMs are open, and there's a submission form on the site. I read every single one.

If you're a young queer person and today feels like too much, the Trevor Project is there 24/7. Call 1-866-488-7386 or text START to 678-678. You are needed here.

Last Week's Episode with Jackie Beat: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0Au7bZ7fBsx5oqdPvfFrLF?si=Z2imZV4uRrqAuzO0jZ3wxg

Website Submission Form:

https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

Instagram and All:

https://linktr.ee/Jonnythyne

Drag legend Jackie Beat joins Refuse to Subscribe for a Pride Month conversation about 36 years in drag, queer freedom, comedy, Joan Rivers, Bea Arthur, AIDS, Drag Race, and why there is no expiration date on being fierce, fabulous, and funny.

Jackie Beat has been my favorite drag queen since I was fourteen years old, watching her on YouTube in a small New Hampshire town and seeing, maybe for the first time, what it looked like to be loud, hilarious, fearless, inappropriate, and completely yourself.

I finally got her on the podcast, and honestly, she did not disappoint.

We get inappropriate. We get real. We talk about coming out, the AIDS crisis, gender, fabric, comedy, cancel culture, the rules people make up, the freedoms people pretend to love, and the joy of refusing to shrink yourself for anyone.

This one was a long time coming.

Happy Pride!

Join the conversation:

https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

Baby Got Front:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxq6IgkYA50

This week I'm coming in hot with some life updates - the Hacks series finale (UPDATE: I thought it was the series finale, it wasn't. and I couldn't be happier about it) and a book I finished, You've Found Oliver by Dustin Thao, which started slow and then took a turn I did not see coming and had me in my feels for the rest of the day. Dustin, you might be getting a call soon.

Then we get into it.

First- the dumb phone experiment. I tried it. It was harder than expected, lonelier than expected, and ultimately more clarifying than expected. I'm not back to scrolling mindlessly, but I'm also not pretending the rest of the world is going to slow down and meet me where I am. I found a middle ground, and I share exactly what that looks like now plus an app called Blank Spaces that has been a genuine game changer for anyone not ready to go full dumb phone but desperate for less noise.

And then the thing I really wanted to talk about. The belief I have held for over ten years that I think is one of the most radical, most necessary things a person can do for themselves- leave your hometown. Give it at least two years somewhere new. Sit in the discomfort of nobody knowing who you are or who you're supposed to be. Let yourself become a blank canvas again.

I moved from Massachusetts to Tucson at 21 with nothing. No job, no money, one connection, zero plan. It was the best decision I have ever made. Then Phoenix. Then LA. And now Paris is on the horizon. Every single move has cracked me open in ways I didn't know I needed. Every city has asked me to shed something and grow something new in its place.

This episode is for the person who feels the pull and keeps talking themselves out of it. The person who knows something different is waiting for them but can't quite bring themselves to begin. I've been that person. I know what's on the other side of the fear. And I promise you- it is worth every single uncomfortable, disorienting, lonely, magnificent moment.

If you want to talk about any of this - privately or on the podcast- I'd love to hear from you.

https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

Jen is back, and I have to be honest with you- becoming more spiritually aware has made me a worse bar patron.

We talk about what actually happens when meditation starts working: you feel everything, you notice everything, and sometimes you're stuck in a room where the energy is genuinely terrible and you just have to be there anyway. We also get into what it means to love yourself on the days when you're disconnected, why there are no rules in meditation even though it kind of feels like there are, and Jen's origin story (which involves finding the teacher she'd been looking for her whole life and then choosing the bar instead.)

She ends us with a question that I'm still sitting with. Head to the link below, drop your answer in the anonymous submission box, and Jen and I are bringing your responses into our next episode together.

If you'd still like to join the meditation challenge, that link is below, as well!

https://jonnythyne.com/reflect

https://www.lightsourcecenter.org/21day/