This one is a real oldie. Back in 2002 we held our annual interfaith conference, with the theme of environmentalism. We shared the duties with the West Michigan Environmental Action Committee. So remember, all this happened a long time ago. Don't go trying to register for it. But like all of these ancient episodes, the conversation is still valid. Our guest is Dr. John Grim. You'll hear how good he is at what he does. Theme music "Nigal."