I sit down with musician John Mark McMillan for an exclusive conversation about something I never thought I'd see—one of contemporary Christian music's most boundary-pushing artists stepping away from the touring life after nearly 20 years on the road. 

What starts as a discussion about the brutal economics of modern music—the streaming pennies, the oversaturated venue landscape, the mounting tour costs—quickly becomes something richer: a meditation on what music is actually for. 

John Mark shares about a wild night in a Belfast pub where strangers went from wanting to fight him to nearly kissing him (he declined), and how this experience crystallizes his vision for what comes next. We explore why performing the same song 50 times for 50 different crowds might be less transformative than gathering the same people in the same room week after week, why the death of the album as an art form matters, and what it looks like to trade reach for depth. 

If you've ever wondered whether the music industry's evolution has cost us something essential about human connection—or if you're just curious what makes an artist walk away from the only income they've known since 2006—this conversation will give you plenty to think about.

Johnmarkmcmillan.com

Previous Episodes with John:

(#270) John Mark McMillan: Faith & Doubt

(#316) Redefining Success with John Mark McMillan & Thomas Torrey

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Here's a little update after our weekend in St. Paul, MN for Theology Beer Camp 2025. See you on Monday with our regular episode!

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I'm launching a new series diving deep into cognitive distortions—those sneaky thinking errors we all fall into—and exploring how they show up at the intersection of psychology and religion. 

In this first episode, I tackle "Should/Must statements" with research psychologist Laird Edman. We go way beyond the therapy textbooks to explore how these rigid internal rules can either guide us toward our values or trap us in cycles of shame and perfectionism, examine why our brains evolved to be so rule-obsessed in the first place, and dig into the messy territory of spiritual abuse, purity culture, and religious scrupulosity. We also venture into how different faith traditions—from Orthodox Judaism to Islam to Christianity—grapple with the balance between divine standards and human fallibility. 

Whether you're wrestling with unrealistic expectations in your faith community, trying to understand OCD and religious anxiety, or just curious about finding that sweet spot between perfectionism and permissiveness, this conversation offers both psychological insight and practical tools for a more grace-filled approach to life. Plus, Laird shares some surprisingly vulnerable stories about altar calls and guitar playing that'll make you rethink what "good enough" really means.

Laird's Website | ⁠Lairdedman.com⁠

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I sit down with John Hawthorne, retired Christian university sociology professor and author of The Fearless Christian University, to unpack the troubling martyrdom narrative emerging around Charlie Kirk's assassination. 

We explore how Kirk is being weaponized as an icon by Christian nationalist ambassadors while everyday adherents struggle to make sense of senseless violence through familiar theological frameworks. John and I compare the Kirk situation to George Floyd—not as moral equivalents, but as examples of how viral footage of violent deaths gets absorbed into competing political narratives that say more about our fractured media ecosystem than the victims themselves. 

We dig into why evangelicals are particularly susceptible to martyrdom narratives (suffering must have divine purpose), how the attention economy incentivizes crisis merchants on both left and right, and why the complete breakdown of shared civic discourse leaves people feeling they have no choice but to retreat into their tribal identities. 

The conversation gets uncomfortably honest about how both sides manufacture heroes from tragedy, and why understanding the psychology of the adherents—our neighbors, family members, and clients—matters more than dissecting the cynical ambassadors orchestrating it all.

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

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You Have Permission is now Religion on the Mind! Look for our updated artwork in your podcast feed and listen to this episode for more about what you can expect with the new name.

In this episode, I sit down with Zoë Bernard, a writer and journalist who wrote a fascinating piece about Christianity's surprising resurgence in Silicon Valley. I share my own experience growing up evangelical in the Valley during the dot-com era—a time when religion, especially Christianity, felt distinctly uncool in tech circles. Zoë and I explore how dramatically things have shifted: where tech leaders once kept their faith quiet or embraced new atheism, figures like Peter Thiel and Elon Musk now publicly identify with Christianity, and startups in places like El Segundo are hosting Bible studies. We dig into what's driving this change—from the moral complexity of working in AI and defense tech, to the perceived failures of "wokeism" as a secular replacement for religion, to the hollow feeling many successful tech workers experience despite their wealth. 

I push back on some of the tensions I see between Silicon Valley's uber-capitalism and Jesus's actual economic teachings, while Zoë offers insights from her time embedded with young Christian entrepreneurs who are reshaping tech culture. 

We close by considering how AI might fundamentally alter spirituality itself—a conversation we'll definitely need to continue.

Zoe's Website | Zoe-bernard.com

Zoe's Article | https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/2025/4/god-complex

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It’s a new name, new art… and the rest is pretty much the same content you know and love on the overlap of psychology, religion and spirituality.

My teammates Josh Gilbert and Joy Vetterlein join me for a quick chat about our rebrand of this podcast (It’s a glow-up, but Dan wants everyone to know those are Joy’s words and not his words).

We talk about why the change now, what it represents in the context of the culture at large and share about upcoming series and episodes in the works.

Listen in and keep an eye out for new artwork in your podcast feed!

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Friend of the pod Tripp Fuller joins me in full Dodgers gear (the audacity!) to discuss why the doctrine of original sin desperately needs a comeback—not the toxic version that told us we couldn't trust our own emotions or experiences, but a robust theological framework that actually explains the mess we're living in.

We unpack how the concept of original sin operates on three interconnected levels: individual, communal, and structural. We tear apart Augustine's outdated biology while rescuing his psychological insights, trace the snowball effect of violence from Cain's first murder through the Tower of Babel, and discover why progressive Christians who rail against systemic injustice are actually doing theology whether they realize it or not. 

Along the way, we somehow manage to argue about Sam Harris, the military-industrial complex, global capitalism, and whether America is an evil empire or just another flawed superpower trying not to blow up the world. 

If you've ever wondered why humans keep doing terrible things despite our best intentions, or why your evangelical upbringing left you allergic to the very doctrine that might actually help you understand structural oppression, this conversation is for you.

Come to Theology Beer Camp 2025

Listen to Homebrewed Christianity

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Attention YHP Listeners: Starting in October, the podcast You Have Permission will change its name to Religion on the Mind. This rebrand will come with new artwork and focus more broadly on the overlap of Psychology, Religion & Spirituality. We look forward to telling you more in the coming days… stay tuned!

I sit down with previous guest Matt Naylor from the Milkless podcast to explore a disturbing pattern he discovered through a simple Google experiment: searching for public figures known for embracing violence and cruelty, then adding "father" to see what emerges. From Elon Musk to Joe Rogan to JD Vance, the batting average for abuse, abandonment, and alcoholism is striking. 

We dig into the neuroscience behind early childhood attachment, examining how those first six months of life literally wire our brains for how we perceive safety in the world. Matt shares research on rat mothers who groom their babies differently and how those early experiences shape everything from stress response to longevity—findings that translate directly to human development. We explore the unique roles fathers play in transmitting worldview and values, diving into attachment research that shows father-child relationships are particularly crucial for managing externalizing behaviors like aggression and rule-breaking. 

The conversation takes a personal turn as Matt reflects on his own family history and his determination to raise daughters who see the world as an enchanted place full of wonder rather than a threatening landscape requiring constant vigilance. The episode weaves together cutting-edge brain science, attachment theory, and deeply personal reflection on what it means to be a father in an increasingly polarized world.

Take It Offline Question: What things do you find that you feel in your body about the world that don't line up with the way you wish you felt about the world?

Milkless Podcast

Child-father attachment and behavior problems (NIH)

Christian Century interview with Vern Bengston about fathers and religious transmission to children

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In this week’s Top of Mind segment, I address the Charlie Kirk assassination through cognitive distortions, calling out the all-or-nothing thinking that's turning him into either a blessed martyr or democracy's destroyer when the reality is more nuanced. I also push back against the dangerous idea that speech equals violence, pointing out that Kirk's murder serves as a stark reminder that actual bullets—not words—constitute real violence.

For this week’s main episode, I’m going solo. I start by sharing how my own faith deconstruction included grappling with evolution. From questioning young earth creationism to eventually embracing evolutionary theory by my late twenties, and how evolution informs my therapeutic practice.

Then, I go into how psychology has fully embraced evolutionary explanations across five key areas: 

attachment theory (which appears across species and helped our ancestors survive through bonding), 

shame (as an evolved social conscience that keeps us aligned with group norms), 

sexual jealousy (as mate-guarding behavior found throughout the animal kingdom), 

anxiety (as an overactive alarm system that kept our ancestors alive through hypervigilance), and 

depression (as either energy conservation during adverse conditions or analytical rumination for solving complex problems.) 

These evolutionary frameworks help reduce client shame by showing that their struggles aren't personal defects but rather ancient survival systems that are now mismatched to our modern world.

In the Patreon-only portion, I dive deeper into attachment research with macaques, the neuroscience of shame and anxiety across species, mate-guarding behaviors from chimpanzees to humans, and two competing theories of depression—the hibernation model and analytical rumination hypothesis.

Episodes Mentioned:

Episode with Adrian Wyard | To Accept Theistic Evolution (#2)

To Trust Science (#28)

Evolution Myths & Long Lifespans in Genesis (#36)

Who’s Afraid of Evolutionary Psychology? (#47)

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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My fellow Beach Boys fan and returning guest David Zahl is back to discuss his provocative critique of self-optimization culture in his Plough Quarterly piece "Against Self-Optimization.” As someone who has maximized my morning routine to a science, I wrestle with my own efficiency obsession and David's argument that our machine-like language and relentless pursuit of becoming "optimized" versions of ourselves is fundamentally dehumanizing. 

We look at how Jesus wasn't particularly efficient, how the wellness industry monetizes our unhappiness, and whether there's a difference between optimization and ruthless efficiency.

Along the way, we touch on everything from Daft Punk's "Harder Better Faster Stronger" to the theology of death, the loneliness epidemic, and why churches that function too seamlessly might actually be missing the point. 

David brings his characteristically poetic perspective to counter my more prose-like approach, creating a conversation that challenges both the Silicon Valley promise of endless self-improvement and the Christian concept of becoming our "ideal selves" — while somehow managing to work in references to Beach Boys, Radiohead, and why AI should do our laundry, not write our books.

David's Piece Against Optimization

David's Books

Songs Played:

Me Without You | "Red Cow & Dorothy"

Daft Punk | Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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