Voxology

Mike, Suzie, and Tim discuss the harm caused when fallen pastors turn repentance into a public product, then explore how spiritual abuse can distort biblical interpretation. They consider Jesus as the key to reading Scripture, and share postures that make room for humility, curiosity, hope, and uncertainty.The hosts discuss how spiritual abusers can use Scripture to control, exclude, shame, and equate their own opinions with God’s word.

Mike argues that Jesus is the “key to knowledge”: the New Testament presents him as essential to understanding the full meaning of Torah and the prophets.

Suzie affirms the value of historical and cultural context, and says she has grown more comfortable with not knowing everything about God.Tim compares growing faith to childhood imagination, suggesting that uncertainty can invite wonder rather than become a stumbling block.

Mike reframes certainty as relational faithfulness expressed through action, not simply intellectual confidence.The hosts suggest approaching Scripture with humility, curiosity, hope, gentleness, and openness to learning from other people and communities.

Timestamps

00:00 - Halloween plans and the episode’s turn to spiritual abuse

04:23 - Why a book about a pastor’s fall and repentance raises concerns

06:39 - Repentance, restoration, and caring for those who were harmed

11:11 - Carl Lentz, celebrity ministry, and systemic failures

18:01 - The “key to knowledge” and Jesus’ critique of religious leaders

21:18 - How spiritual abuse distorts Scripture

23:12 - Reading Torah and the prophets through Jesus

29:22 - Wrestling with difficult Old Testament portrayals of God

30:38 - Ambiguity, maturity, and learning to live with complexity

36:09 - What the Old Testament reveals about God and God’s people

38:33 - Childhood imagination, faith, and wonder

40:30 - Certainty as relational trust expressed in action

44:42 - Humility, curiosity, and hope as ways to approach Scripture

51:22 - Gentleness, joyful conviction, and learning across differences

54:28 - Agency, unanswered questions, and the value of wrestling

56:09 - Aslan, Lucy, and how Jesus grows larger as we grow

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

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Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

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The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

The Bible can open the kingdom—or slam the door shut. In this episode, Mike, Tim, and Suzie explore Jesus’ warning to religious leaders who use Scripture to exclude, shame, and control, and ask why that warning still feels so relevant today.

Looking at Matthew 23 and Luke 11, they unpack how the Pharisees are accused of rejecting Jesus, twisting Torah, and using religious authority to reinforce their own righteousness. The conversation connects those ancient warnings to spiritual abuse, political anger, online outrage, and the ways faith can be used either to bring people closer to God or push them away.

Together, they consider what it means to “nullify” Scripture, how to recognize when a teacher is clarifying its message or obscuring it, and why lament, community, and peacemaking matter in a culture overwhelmed by grief and conflict. At the heart of the discussion is one searching question: Is our use of the Bible shaped by Jesus’ way of mercy—or by coercion and shame?

00:00 - Fall break check-in and podcast banter

00:54 - Family trip to Columbus and Dave & Buster’s

02:19 - 30A, post-hurricane tourism, and fall break

03:53 - Hannah calls in after an eight-mile run

05:31 - Tim’s fall break, the Dodgers, and the Guardians

06:51 - The kindness mob story

09:34 - How positive and negative social media cascades spread

10:27 - Listener feedback about current events and Scripture

13:28 - A school shooting and the need to lament

15:23 - Making space for communal grief and prayer

19:35 - The search for peace

21:33 - Matthew 23 and shutting the kingdom door

23:59 - The “key to knowledge” in Luke

25:26 - Three ways the Pharisees closed the door

27:22 - The healing of the blind and mute man

28:44 - Jesus’ power, the Pharisees’ accusation, and blasphemy against the Spirit

31:59 - Ceremonial washing and the tradition of the elders

34:21 - Corban and honoring parents

36:36 - The sinful woman in Luke 7: judgment and mercy

38:29 - The woman caught in adultery

40:45 - Spiritual abuse and distorted readings of Scripture

44:30 - Susie on blocking others from a kingdom one has not entered

45:57 - Leaders preaching against what they have not faced in themselves

48:15 - Peacemaking, shalom, and responding to chaos

50:06 - Jesus, shame, and writing in the dust

51:35 - Mercy, wrath, and the death penalty debate

53:16 - The wounds teachers bring to their interpretation of Scripture

54:34 - Filters, theological posture, and interpretation

57:48 - Jesus clarifies Torah rather than obscuring it

58:18 - The “key to knowledge” and a cruciform way of reading the Bible

60:01 - Closing thanks and the Shema

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

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Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Today, Mike, Tim and Suzie wrestle with two difficult questions: How should Christians respond to public cruelty and political turmoil? And how can church leaders avoid using power to heal their own wounds? The conversation moves from the death penalty and immigration enforcement to Jesus’ teaching on peace, then turns to humility, vulnerability, and spiritual abuse.

They consider why “turn the other cheek” is not a call to passivity, how anger might become fuel for healing rather than outrage, and why local community matters for discernment and action. The conversation also examines the temptations of spiritual leadership: status, performance, and the difference between transparency and real vulnerability.

Chapters

00:00 Fall break banter and hurricane jokes

04:18 The death penalty and public execution

06:22 A son’s reaction to televised violence

08:04 Burnout and the strain of constant political vigilance

09:51 Jesus, peace, and the tension between nonviolence and resistance

13:17 Turning the other cheek as creative goodness, not passivity

15:15 Local community and faithful action

17:07 Why political solutions aren’t the whole answer

19:40 The limits of election-cycle thinking

21:25 Staying local amid overwhelming news

22:26 Anger, the internet, and protecting your attention

32:34 Setting boundaries around news and social media

36:04 The conversation turns to spiritually abusive leadership

36:59 Siblingship instead of status and privilege

38:27 Refusing social prestige and choosing low honor

39:25 Hiddenness and performative piety

40:22 Paul as a model of taking the lowest place

43:45 The practice of showing genuine need

44:44 Three steps toward becoming like the Pharisees

47:05 Judgment, discernment, and empathy

48:37 When humility becomes a performance

51:07 Transparency versus real vulnerability

55:45 Wounds, motives, and church leadership

59:52 Preparing to teach without making the platform the center

64:17 Suzie on pressure, trust, and teaching

70:48 How to discern whose wounds a leader is trying to heal

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! Etsy

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Warning: Strong Language.

This episode opens with a critique of political religious rhetoric, then turns to sexual abuse, church complicity, and why image-bearing, body theology, and accountability matter. The conversation also explores Matthew 23 and Jesus’ warnings about religious performance, status-seeking, and spiritual abuse in leadership.

Mike, Tim, and Suzie react to Pete Hegseth’s religious language and discuss how quoting Psalm 33 and Isaiah 6 out of context can be used to baptize militarism, and then connect the Cornell University sexual assault story to broader questions of human dignity, trauma, and the failure of men and institutions to intervene.

00:00 — Opening banter and setting up the episode

02:20 — Political religion, military rhetoric, and the Bible

04:11 — Psalm 33 in context: the verses left out

06:15 — “The real battle is spiritual” and the danger of baptizing war language

08:14 — The Psalm’s corrective: war horses do not save

10:25 — Isaiah 6 misused as a war cry

11:12 — The “Office of Religious Affairs” and state religion

13:20 — Why they keep speaking up: record-keeping, mockery, and moral witness

15:19 — The Cornell assault story and why it matters to churches

16:05 — Image-bearing, trauma response, and taking assault seriously

17:36 — Women defending themselves in every space

19:00 — Why men’s silence is part of the problem

20:59 — Purity culture, gendered blame, and church complicity

24:29 — Sexual ethics and a theology of the body

26:28 — Matthew 23 and Jesus’ warnings about spiritually abusive leaders

28:20 — Religious performance, rank, and status

31:14 — Phylacteries and tassels: symbols turned into self-display

35:05 — Banquets, synagogue seats, and public honor

37:19 — A modern reading of Jesus’ critique of abusive leadership

39:54 — Titles, respect, and the difference between function and self-importance

42:28 — Authority culture and the weight given to pastoral input

45:20 — Form, function, and missing Jesus’ point

47:00 — Jesus’ correction: one teacher, one father, one Messiah

50:55 — Luke 14: take the lowest seat, not the place of honor

52:51 — Vocational ministry and the pull of visibility

55:44 — Matthew 6: giving, praying, and fasting without being seen

57:36 — Church structures, hierarchy, and hard questions

60:20 — Momentum, affirmation, and why leaders need mental health care

61:48 — Staying close to the poor as a guardrail against status addiction

64:33 — Mike’s personal practices for humility and hiddenness

67:27 — Trusting communities and cultures over charismatic individuals

69:53 — Closing thanks and sign-off

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! Etsy

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

The best way to expose spiritual abuse is not by making Christianity smaller, but by making it more like Jesus.

This episode follows a lively three-way conversation with Mike, Tim Stafford, and Suzie P. Lind about complementarianism, spiritual abuse, and what Jesus means by mercy over sacrifice. The discussion also widens into how churches create heavy loads through subculture, calling, gender roles, and expectations around community.They move from a listener email about complementarianism into a broader argument about how Jesus frees people instead of exhausting them with rule systems. Along the way, they connect Sabbath controversies, neighbor-love, and the body metaphor in First Corinthians to the everyday ways Christians can either burden or bless one another.

00:00 - Opening banter and political outrage over absurd public symbolism

03:31 - Listener email on complementarianism as a whole worldview

06:10 - Suzie on how deconstruction is often the real “choice”

10:46 - Tim questions racial and global inconsistencies in complementarian teaching

15:36 - Heavy loads, Pharisaical teaching, and Jesus’ mercy framework

18:31 - What mercy over sacrifice could look like for neighbors with different identities

22:20 - Healing on the Sabbath and the shriveled hand story

24:52 - “It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath” as Jesus’ core principle

25:51 - How spiritually abusive systems add rules, shame, and fear

30:57 - Opposite of loads: blessing and empowering people

32:30 - Ways churches imply you must swallow everything or not belong

35:26 - “Gift projection” and forcing your calling onto everyone else

36:59 - The myth of “full-time ministry” versus ordinary Christian vocation

40:47 - Unity as family, not uniformity

42:17 - Turning implications into commands, like “your body is a temple”

43:17 - Examining our own hearts before calling out the load we place on others

46:27 - Redefining gospel, salvation, and what “first importance” really means

48:34 - When theological nuance leaves people unable to read Scripture with confidence

50:13 - Confession and accountability as communal, not individual, work

51:30 - First Corinthians and the body metaphor as a better model for discipleship

53:21 - Justice, guilt, and how load-bearing can happen even in good intentions

54:43 - How “we’re not program-driven” can still burden people differently

56:19 - Enneagram, temperament, and center-set community across differences

58:14 - Introverts, presence, and why every body part matters

60:09 - Closing reflections on the brutal beauty of community in First Corinthians

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! Etsy

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

This episode opens with a lively point counterpoint about whether Christianity has failed, then moves into a thoughtful listener question about complementarianism, egalitarianism, and why some disagreements feel anything but friendly. From there, the conversation shifts into a teaching-heavy look at Matthew 11 and 12, where Jesus’ “easy yoke” is unpacked as mercy over burden, not zero-effort religion.

Mike, Tim Stafford, and Suzie each bring a distinct voice: Mike steers the theology and text, Tim presses the conversation from a justice and power angle, and Suzie names the lived experience of women navigating church systems.

00:00 - Cold open: “Christianity has failed”

03:45 - A listener question on complementarianism and why the disagreement feels fake to some women

09:21 - Susie’s response: friendship, trust, and why fellowship has levels

12:20 - The danger of treating everything as first importance or nothing as important

14:42 - Why the biblical case for women in leadership still matters missionally

16:09 - Women in leadership, abuse culture, and why hierarchy can create bad fruit

17:45 - Tim’s alt festival update and the conversation shifts into what kinds of churches he will not attend

18:43 - Why churches that marginalize people are non starters

22:23 - The “slippery slope” argument cuts both ways

23:30 - Matthew 23: heavy loads, hypocrisy, and spiritual abuse

24:57 - Torah was a gift, not the burden Jesus condemned

26:23 - Sabbath, Jubilee, and the radical generosity of Torah

28:51 - Matthew 11: the context for Jesus’ invitation to rest

34:42 - “Come to me” and the burden of the Pharisees

37:06 - Susie on legalism, hustle culture, and the simplicity we complicate

39:40 - “Come to me”: a rabbinic invitation to become Jesus’ student

41:11 - What a yoke meant in rabbinic teaching

44:22 - Why the crowds did not fully understand Jesus at first

46:24 - Status, knowledge, and why learnedness can become a burden

47:22 - Jesus as gentle and humble in heart

49:46 - “Easy” does not mean effortless

52:39 - Matthew 12 begins: Sabbath, hunger, and grain fields

55:22 - Why Sabbath became a major identity marker after exile

57:19 - The written Torah versus the oral tradition

58:45 - David and the consecrated bread

59:43 - Priests working on the Sabbath and Jesus’ greater-than-the-temple claim

61:13 - “I desire mercy, not sacrifice”

62:10 - How Jesus reveals the true nature of Torah

66:41 - Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for Sabbath

68:24 - Torah as a shape for mercy, not a cage against mercy

69:47 - Teaser for next week: mercy, sacrifice, and modern spiritual abuse

71:43 - Annie Dillard’s warning about the power invoked in church

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! https://www.etsy.com/shop/VOXOLOGY?ref=shop_sugg_market

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Mike, Tim, and Suzie begin with a reflection on the 25th anniversary of 9/11, then move into a wide-ranging conversation about AI risk, political despair, and the church’s role in a polarized culture. The episode keeps returning to one central concern: if the gospel is reduced to a legal transaction, it can produce hypocrisy instead of transformation.

This is an episode about grief, discernment, and the cost of misreading the gospel. It’s also about hope that is not tied to elections, institutions, or tech promises - but to formation, courage, and the ordinary work of becoming more like Jesus.

CHAPTERS:

00:00 - Weather, Halloween decorations, and the opening banter

02:04 - Marking the 25th anniversary of 9/11

02:52 - Suzie on where she was when the attacks began

04:05 - Tim’s dorm room memory and the campus response

05:07 - Remembering the shock before social media and nonstop news

06:22 - The helpers, national unity, and the emotional whiplash

07:59 - Pat Tillman and the post-9/11 heroic imagination

08:22 - What 9/11 changed in America

10:39 - Why AI suddenly feels terrifying

11:07 - Anthropic’s own warning about recursive self-improvement

12:00 - A former Anthropic researcher resigns and sounds the alarm

13:26 - Real-world misuse of AI by governments and criminal actors

15:44 - Tim on why AI fear is not just hype

16:41 - Deepfakes, stolen art, and the erosion of trust

17:41 - Why AI cannot replace human experience or care

19:01 - Suzie on shifting from skepticism to concern

20:29 - Why regulation lags behind technology and profit

21:59 - Feeling overwhelmed and the urge to prepare

22:30 - Groceries, supply chains, and practical anxiety

23:22 - Satire, Trump, and the absurdity of political power

26:31 - What is the church supposed to do now?

29:37 - Tim on community, school board elections, and hope

30:27 - The church’s role in the failures of the last 25 years

33:53 - Suzie on Christians causing harm and doing good side by side

35:45 - Church leadership, politics, and speaking up for human dignity

38:22 - Naming reality, grieving propaganda, and carrying hope

39:48 - Why the legal-only gospel enables hypocrisy

42:42 - Poking around the courtroom metaphor

44:35 - The DMV analogy and salvation as a pop quiz

45:30 - Why belief without transformation leaves room for contradiction

46:38 - What Mike means by “demonic” corruption of the gospel

49:35 - Repentance, transformation, and formation into Christlikeness

50:43 - Tim on freedom, peer pressure, and teaching tools instead of just rules

53:54 - Emotional immaturity, family-of-origin wounds, and self-protection

55:23 - Defining family, illumination, and the mercy of being found out

57:54 - Salvation as participation, covenant, and faithfulness

59:05 - Marriage vows as something embodied over time

60:01 - Why the church needs a gospel that naturally leads to formation

62:01 - Nature, sunsets, breathing, and not surrendering to exhaustion

64:40 - A final joke about judgment, rapture, and cultural milestones

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! https://www.etsy.com/shop/VOXOLOGY?ref=shop_sugg_market

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

In this episode, Mike, Suzie and Tim discuss how American Christianity can reward false selves, why being “found out” can actually be mercy, and how confession is less about shame management and more about restoration, integration, and real connection.

Together, they unpack why American Christianity rewards the false self, why imposter syndrome is often a symptom of a broken system, and how “being found out” can be a form of grace instead of punishment. If you’ve ever felt the pressure to look certain, sound authoritative, or keep the real mess hidden, this episode will feel uncomfortably familiar in the best way.

Timestamps

00:00 - Voxology welcome and naming the team

02:49 - Wendell Berry, privilege, and the Subversive Witness book club

03:19 - Berry on freedom, affluence, and community

04:55 - Suzie reads “The Peace of Wild Things”

05:49 - Mike reads “I Dream of a Quiet Man”

06:47 - Fear-based politics and “what happens to the church?”

10:53 - Hypocrisy, imposter syndrome, and why it matters for teachers

13:15 - Suzie on weekly prep anxiety and co-learning

17:14 - Timothy on the performative church system

20:38 - Why the false self gets rewarded

23:58 - Therapy, the “glittering image,” and the good bad split

26:49 - The impossible job description placed on pastors

32:30 - “Everything hidden will be disclosed”

34:50 - Found out as grace, not just judgment

36:43 - Mercy, judgment, and praying children are caught before harm

39:26 - Sex, consequences, and a new way to think about judgment

42:21 - Confession as more than stamping 1 John 1:9 on a problem

46:41 - Examen as a practice of noticing God’s presence and absence

48:33 - How confession has changed over time

50:26 - Sin as obstacle to fullness, not just rule-breaking

54:01 - Finding a non-threatening place to tell the truth

55:56 - Privacy versus secrecy

57:13 - 12-step confession, healing, and accountability

61:00 - Shame, connection, and being loved in weakness

62:13 - Jesus’ warning about hypocrisy and spiritual abuse

64:09 - Why the gospel also addresses how we live, not just what happens after death

65:58 - Humanity, restoration, and confession as a return to true self

67:18 - Back to 3D faith and closing thoughts

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! https://www.etsy.com/shop/VOXOLOGY?ref=shop_sugg_market

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

This episode starts with a celebration of Dolly Parton’s extraordinary generosity and cultural impact, then moves into a serious theological conversation about hypocrisy, leadership, and what makes a church spiritually healthy or toxic. Mike, Suzie, and Tim connect Jesus’ warnings in Matthew 23 and Luke 12 to modern church culture, power, and the temptation to perform righteousness rather than live it.

Why was Dolly Parton so universally loved, from the left to the right? Should Churches have a tax exempt status or does that malform the Church, structuring it like a business? How are we, today, to relate to the Pharisees and Jesus's warnings about their posture?

00:00 - Dolly Parton as a cultural and moral icon

01:00 - Surprising examples of Dolly’s generosity

03:00 - Why Dolly is beloved across ideological lines

05:25 - The question of doctrinal purity and salvation

06:53 - Rob Bell versus Mark Driscoll and the “greater heresy” debate

08:08 - Measuring a life by fruit, dignity, and consistency

12:05 - Benny Johnson, Rome, and the irony of Christian empire language

15:07 - Listener question: can 501(c)(3) status shape toxic church culture?

16:40 - Suzie on tax status versus church culture

18:28 - When tax structure becomes an opportunity for corruption

21:37 - Tim on systemic abuse and why the model feels broken

24:41 - Why leadership still matters in the New Testament

26:08 - Ephesians 4 and leadership for church flourishing

27:33 - Hebrews 13, submission, and the danger of abusive authority

31:48 - Spiritual leadership modeled by Jesus, not American hierarchy

34:29 - Paul’s refusal to build status around himself

35:51 - Teaching through the first woe in Matthew 23

39:40 - Hypocrisy as “judging under” and split identity

41:30 - The yeast of the Pharisees as corrupting influence

43:49 - Fear, sparrows, and what Jesus says to disciples under pressure

47:38 - Three ways truth gets exposed: life, persecution, and final judgment

51:23 - Gehenna as a kingdom image, not a simplistic hell map

54:17 - The God who judges also knows and loves you

55:23 - Public confession, denial, and persecution

56:17 - Tim on work, power, and the American dream as a church model

58:38 - Why the point is not only identifying Pharisees, but avoiding becoming them

61:06 - Suzie on famous failures, confession, and being found out in mercy

63:35 - How secrecy and lack of truth-telling deepen corruption

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

Our Merch Store! https://www.etsy.com/shop/VOXOLOGY?ref=shop_sugg_market

Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

Subscribe on iTunes or Spotify

Support the Voxology Podcast on Patreon

The Voxology Spotify channel can be found here: Voxology Radio

Follow us on Instagram: @voxologypodcast and "like" us on Facebook

Follow Mike on Twitter: www.twitter.com/mikeerre

Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

Instagram & Twitter: @GoneTimothy

Today, Mike Erre, Tim Stafford, and super special guest host Suzie P. Lind open a serious conversation about spiritual abuse by reading Matthew 23 alongside current headlines of pastor misconduct and church corruption. The episode asks why Jesus’ harshest words land on religious leaders, and what that reveals about abusive systems, hypocrisy, and the responsibility of shepherds.

Suzie brings a crucial perspective as a pastor, elder, and woman in church leadership, helping widen the conversation beyond the usual assumptions. The discussion moves between biblical context, present-day church culture, and the personal work of examining how easily leaders can become what they condemn.

The group walks through Matthew 23 and focuses on Jesus’ repeated rebukes:

• hypocrisy
• burdening people without helping
• status-seeking
• spiritual blindness
• neglect of justice, mercy, and faithfulness

Chapters:

00:00 - Welcome back and introduction of Suzie P. Lind

02:34 - Coaching update, Patreon thanks, and book club announcement

04:00 - Trigger Warning: The reality of abuse headlines

07:24 - Why this feels like a culture problem, not just bad individuals 1

3:33 - Jesus’ woe over Jerusalem and why the tone matters 1

5:15 - Reading Matthew 23 in full context

17:07 - Hypocrisy, burden-bearing, and shutting the kingdom’s door

18:58 - Justice, mercy, faithfulness, and the “gnat and camel” warning

19:25 - Whitewashed tombs and outward righteousness

20:49 - Jerusalem weeps: judgment and grief together

22:09 - Why Suzie agrees with Jesus, but still feels the weight of it

23:12 - Why readers identify with Jesus instead of the Pharisees

27:03 - Jesus as prophet, not just teacher

29:44 - Holding religious leaders accountable for the people’s condition

32:01 - Reading the passage personally, not just externally

35:27 - Prophets as formed people, not instant caricatures

36:32 - Ancient Israel’s built-in self-critique

37:09 - Suzie on fear, responsibility, and benefiting from systems

38:35 - Oppressed people can become oppressors too

41:07 - Malala, forgiveness, and breaking cycles of violence

44:11 - Why the inside/outside distinction matters so much

45:01 - Ezekiel 34 and shepherds who feed on the flock

48:38 - Modernizing the woes into a diagnosis of abusive churches

49:27 - Heavy loads, guilt, and abusive marriage counseling

52:38 - Suzie’s painful example of being told abuse was “her cross to bear”

53:55 - “I will rescue my flock from their mouths”

56:04 - Status, titles, and performative leadership

57:00 - Majoring on minor issues while neglecting what matters most

58:08 - How churches decide what to emphasize and what to ignore

61:24 - First-importance issues, disputable matters, and biblical priorities

63:41 - Wrap-up, gratitude, and what comes next

As always, we encourage and would love discussion as we pursue. Feel free to email in questions to [email protected], and to engage the conversation on Facebook and Instagram.

We're on YouTube (if you're into that kinda thing): VOXOLOGY TV.

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Learn more about the Voxology Podcast

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Music in this episode by Timothy John Stafford

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