This is our unabridged interview with Haleh Liza Gafori.

Haleh Liza Gafori joins us for part two of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning?

It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it? 

Here, Haleh Liza Gafori—poet, musician, and translator—guides us into the world of the Sufi poet Rumi. We explore how his 13th-century Persian verse still speaks to the modern crises of anxiety, spiritual disconnection, materialism, and self-repression. But this isn’t just about literary history. For Gafori, Rumi has been a companion in healing, a guide through spiritual trauma, ego detachment, and the tyranny of the self.

We discuss poetry as a political act, a mystical practice, and a form of social critique. We look at how Iranian-American identity, religious fundamentalism, and Western imperialism shape the psyche—and how mystical poetry can help us see through, and beyond, these entanglements. We ask what it means to live a good life when the systems around us are built on fear and greed—and what role language, art, theology and ecstatic love can play in imagining something different.

⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Haleh Liza Gafori on her translation of Rumi⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

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Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member!

No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

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When the “Liver King” built an empire on raw meat, steroids, and slogans about being “a real man,” what if he wasn’t selling a message based on muscles but mortality? In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into how the fear of death shapes our obsession with control, strength, and self-sufficiency. Drawing from Untold: The Liver King, Scott Galloway’s research on the masculinity crisis, and Richard Beck’s The Slavery of Death, they trace a cultural thread that might tell us something about how we handle one of the rare, universal experiences: death.

Things we mentioned in this episode:

⁠ Reviving Old Scratch by Richard Beck⁠

⁠ The Slavery of Death by Richard Beck⁠

⁠ The Many Lives of Mama Love by Lara Love Hardin⁠

⁠ Scott Galloway on Armchair Expert⁠

⁠ The Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty⁠

Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠

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Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Haleh Liza Gafori joins us for part two of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning?

It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it? 

Here, Haleh Liza Gafori—poet, musician, and translator—guides us into the world of the Sufi poet Rumi. We explore how his 13th-century Persian verse still speaks to the modern crises of anxiety, spiritual disconnection, materialism, and self-repression. But this isn’t just about literary history. For Gafori, Rumi has been a companion in healing, a guide through spiritual trauma, ego detachment, and the tyranny of the self.

We discuss poetry as a political act, a mystical practice, and a form of social critique. We look at how Iranian-American identity, religious fundamentalism, and Western imperialism shape the psyche—and how mystical poetry can help us see through, and beyond, these entanglements. We ask what it means to live a good life when the systems around us are built on fear and greed—and what role language, art, theology and ecstatic love can play in imagining something different.

Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ of our abridged episode with Haleh Liza Gafori on her translation of Rumi⁠⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠piperandleaf.com⁠

⁠⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠⁠

Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: ⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member!

No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow @nosmallendeavor

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow @leeccamp

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joy Harjo joins us for part one of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning?

It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it? 

Here, three‑term U.S. Poet Laureate Joy Harjo (Muskogee Creek Nation) shares how her poetry emerges from pain, memory, and fierce hope. She reflects on the loss and colonization embedded in her own family story—from the Trail of Tears to the extraction of resources from her tribal lands—and how those historical wounds still pulse in our shared present.

Harjo also traces her coming‑of‑age: learning to find voice through art and activism, encountering the power and beauty of Native elders and poets, recognizing the injustice hidden in history textbooks, and experiencing the healing that comes through being seen and witnessed in kindness. Amidst crises of war, climate, racial injustice, and spiritual dislocation, she argues that poetry is not luxury or escape—it is ritual, ceremony, language of the sacred, a way to speak to the soul and open space for listening and transformation.

Her upcoming book Girl Warrior: On Coming of Age becomes a touchstone in this conversation—one that unearths the raw edges of adolescence, grief, identity, heritage, and hope. This episode invites you to reckon with legacy, cultivate courage, and consider how poetry and voice are vital to living with purpose, meaning, and belonging.

⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Joy Harjo⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at piperandleaf.com

⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠

Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.

No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Savannah and Lee celebrate the 25th anniversary of Gilmore Girls and use Melissa McCarthy’s viral story about Yanic Truesdale’s “fake” French accent as a springboard to talk about authenticity, faith, and what we’ve been trained to hear as “real.” From Luke’s Diner to the Sermon on the Mount, this episode asks: how do we tell the difference between the real thing and a good imitation…and would we even recognize Jesus’s accent if we heard it today?

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Joy Harjo joins us for part one of a three-part series asking the question posed by poet Christian Wiman: What is poetry’s role when the world is burning?

It’s not a metaphorical question. We’re living through wars, climate collapse, collective burnout, and political fragmentation. What possibly might human flourishing mean in such a context? And what might poetry have to do with it? 

Here, three‑term U.S. Poet Laureate Joy Harjo (Muskogee Creek Nation) shares how her poetry emerges from pain, memory, and fierce hope. She reflects on the loss and colonization embedded in her own family story—from the Trail of Tears to the extraction of resources from her tribal lands—and how those historical wounds still pulse in our shared present.

Harjo also traces her coming‑of‑age: learning to find voice through art and activism, encountering the power and beauty of Native elders and poets, recognizing the injustice hidden in history textbooks, and experiencing the healing that comes through being seen and witnessed in kindness. Amidst crises of war, climate, racial injustice, and spiritual dislocation, she argues that poetry is not luxury or escape—it is ritual, ceremony, language of the sacred, a way to speak to the soul and open space for listening and transformation.

Her upcoming book Girl Warrior: On Coming of Age becomes a touchstone in this conversation—one that unearths the raw edges of adolescence, grief, identity, heritage, and hope. This episode invites you to reckon with legacy, cultivate courage, and consider how poetry and voice are vital to living with purpose, meaning, and belonging.

⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for our episode with Joy Harjo⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

⁠Join our subscriber-only community called ⁠NSE+ BY CLICKING HERE⁠. ⁠

Tickets to Nov 23rd NSE Live in Nashville: https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, know that you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member.

No Small Endeavor: Exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, cardinal virtues, how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, happiness, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Garrett Graff.

What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world?

In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned.

This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide.

Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies?

Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes.

If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage.

Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences.

Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff.

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member!

No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, spirituality, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When a Christian influencer warns moms that Taylor Swift will lead their daughters astray, the conversation has moved beyond pop music and into culture. In this episode, Savannah and Lee trace how the church has wrestled with cultural artifacts, including Niebuhr’s Christ and Culture, and what frameworks can help us understand modern reactions to celebrities like Swift. Then, they turn to Life of a Showgirl to explore how Taylor’s own storytelling exposes what we actually believe about celebrity, power, and holiness in the world.

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What can it possibly mean to flourish in our tech saturated world?

In the early 2000s, the internet felt like a civic miracle in the making, with profound possibilities for human flourishing and civic progress. Facebook gave voice to protestors in Egypt’s Tahrir Square. Twitter helped bring down dictators. The web seemed poised to enhance democracy, amplify transparency, and connect us more deeply. But then the tide turned.

This episode features Garrett Graff, historian, journalist, and host of the award-winning podcast Long Shadow: Breaking the Internet. In this sobering conversation, Graff joins Lee to unpack how a platform born of hope became a tool for outrage, surveillance, and even genocide.

Drawing on more than three decades of digital history, Graff traces how tech's shift from user-driven exploration to algorithmic manipulation created not just a loss of innocence—but a structural system designed to enrage. We hear the story of the Arab Spring, where connectivity spurred revolution, only to become a mechanism of authoritarian control. We examine Myanmar, where unchecked hate speech on Facebook helped fuel mass atrocities. And we explore a haunting question: What kind of people are we becoming through our use of these technologies?

Along the way, Graff reflects on his own tech optimism, the moral responsibility of tech executives, and why understanding internet history is a civic—not academic—duty. He and Lee also examine whether AI is already repeating these same mistakes.

If you’ve ever asked how the internet became what it is today—or what role we each play in its future—this episode offers both clarity and a call to courage.

Garrett Graff’s insights offer one of the most thoughtful takes yet on the digital age’s moral and social consequences.

Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Garrett Graff.

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠https://kachava.com⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and use promo code NSE

Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠⁠⁠⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member!

No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, spirituality, theology, politics, faith, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Anna Sale.

When Anna Sale launched Death, Sex & Money in 2014, she was 30 years old, newly divorced, living alone in a studio apartment in New York City, and trying to figure out what her life would become. She had covered politics as a reporter, but her personal world was unraveling. So she started asking strangers to talk about hard things, the questions she herself was desperate to explore: How do people rebuild after loss? What do we do with grief, shame, money, or fractured relationships? What does it mean to live with honesty when the easy script disappears?

Over the past decade, Anna Sale has become one of the most trusted voices on how to have hard conversations—the ones we often avoid but need most. Her hit podcast has been named Podcast of the Year by The Atlantic and Apple Podcasts, and her book, Let’s Talk About Hard Things, has been embraced as a guide for meaningful living.

In this conversation, Anna and Lee explore the important difference between "let's talk about HARD things" and "yes, LET's! let's talk about hard things." And why talk about hard things might be, potentially, among the most life-giving conversations. They discuss shame and grief, the ways our families teach us what not to talk about, and the habits that help us listen well. Anna reflects on her own divorce, her Unitarian Universalist upbringing, and how practices of honesty and vulnerability help us build flourishing relationships even across cultural divides.

Along the way, Anna shares wisdom on navigating sex and intimacy without shame, why money conversations trigger so much discomfort, and what facing death can teach us about authentic human flourishing. Her insights blend psychology and happiness research, theology and culture, and a deep faith in the inherent dignity of every person.

A beautiful conversation about being human, and about what becomes possible when we have the courage to ask hard questions and the patience to really listen.

Please be advised that this episode contains details that may be upsetting to some listeners, including reference to suicide. Additional resources are available at: 

⁠ NAMI⁠ 

⁠Crisis Textline⁠

⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Anna Sale⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠https://kachava.com⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠AquaTru.com⁠ and use promo code NSE

Join our subscriber-only community called NSE+ ⁠BY CLICKING HERE ⁠

Get tickets to NSE Live in Nashville ⁠BY CLICKING HERE⁠

Get ad-free listening, great member-only bonus content, and early access to tickets for our live shows. AND, you're helping make NSE sustainable by becoming a member!

No Small Endeavor: An award winning podcast exploring what it means to live a good life, with thought provoking conversations about human flourishing, theology, politics, faith, spirituality, social sciences, search for meaning, meaning and purpose, practices, common good, truth beauty and goodness, productivity, habit formation, neuroscience, science and religion, social justice, the cardinal virtues, the how of happiness, theology and culture, self development, virtue theory, being human, moral philosophy, and community. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices