What if the biggest lever to your happiness isn’t found in your big decisions, but in the small, automatic things you do every day?

Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist and bestselling author Charles Duhigg joins Lee C. Camp to explore how habits quietly shape our character, our choices, and our capacity for authentic human flourishing. Drawing on Aristotle, neuroscience, and his book The Power of Habit, Duhigg unpacks the classic “cue–routine–reward” loop, keystone habits, and why willpower alone so often fails us. He then turns to his book Supercommunicators to show how changing the way we speak and listen can transform our relationships, our communities, and our search for meaning and purpose.

Key Ideas:

Habits shape character: How Aristotle’s vision of virtue and excellence as “what we repeatedly do” connects with modern habit science and the quest for a flourishing, ethical life.

The roadmap of habit formation: The habit loop of cue, routine, and reward—and why lasting change comes not from white-knuckled willpower, but from redesigning our cues and rewards to support authentic living and habits for happiness.

Keystone habits lead to other better habits: Keystone habits like exercise, making your bed, or food journaling that trigger chain reactions in finances, procrastination, self-control, and our sense of identity and agency.

You should experiment with your life: The difference between stated and revealed preferences: why we can sincerely want to live with purpose and yet keep acting against our own values—and how gentle “self-experiments” help align our behavior with our deepest commitments.

Classifying types of conversations can help you connect: From Supercommunicators: the three kinds of conversations (practical, emotional, social), the “Matching Principle,” and the looping-for-understanding practice that can heal conflict, deepen empathy, and nurture flourishing relationships.

Understanding cues for connection: How laughter, curiosity, and deep questions signal “I want to connect with you,” and why Duhigg believes anyone can learn practices of communication that contribute to the common good and true happiness.

⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Charles Duhigg

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

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⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

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This is our unabridged interview with Sharon McMahon.

Have you ever wished someone would explain the inner workings of America’s political landscape — without taking sides or fueling the outrage machine? 

With over 1.3 million Instagram followers, Sharon McMahon, known affectionately as “America’s Government Teacher,” has spent her career doing exactly that. Drawing from her roots in public education, Sharon rose to prominence on social media during the chaotic 2020 election season. Her clear, fact-based explanations of complex government processes have garnered her a loyal following of self-proclaimed “Governerds,” and today, her teaching reaches millions through her acclaimed podcast, Here's Where It Gets Interesting, her best-selling book The Small and the Mighty, and The Preamble, one of America's most widely-read nonpartisan newsletters. In this thoughtful conversation, Sharon reflects on the transformative power of education, the urgent need for informed civic participation, and the hopeful possibilities that emerge when we approach politics not as partisan warriors but as compassionate, curious learners.

 ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Sharon McMahon

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

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Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠

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CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Some moments stay with us long after the episode ends. In this special episode, Lee C. Camp and Jakob Lewis revisit the conversations from 2025 that changed them—clips that still echo with courage, tenderness, and the invitation to live well. 

Key Ideas:

⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Munther Isaac.

Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on?

Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble.

Key Ideas:

Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving.

Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living.

Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose.

To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies.

Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead?

A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care.

⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for Munther Isaac⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

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CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Family estrangement is rising, but the cultural story behind it is far more complex than “cutting off toxic people.” In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the social, psychological, and technological shifts that quietly reshaped our expectations of family. and why forgiveness, repair, and humility might be the most countercultural practices left.

In this episode, Savannah and Lee dig into the cultural forces behind the surge in family estrangement, from postmodern distrust of authority to therapy-speak, safetyism, digital overwhelm, and the luxury of disconnection. Drawing on Rachel Haack’s Substack newsletter, they explore how concept creep, para-connection, and wealth have shaped our expectations of parents, children, and in-laws, and why privilege can make cutting off family easier than repairing them. Together they reflect on the emotional weight, legitimate complexities, and real pain inside estrangement, before ending with a conversation on forgiveness…not as excusing harm, but as a courageous path towards freedom.

Things we mentioned in this episode:

⁠⁠Labubu Pendant Blind Box⁠⁠

⁠⁠James by Percival Everett⁠⁠

⁠⁠ Why Everyone’s Cutting Everyone Off: The Cultural Story Behind Family Estrangement⁠⁠

⁠⁠David Schnarch's books⁠⁠

⁠⁠ That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation by David Bentley Hart⁠⁠

⁠⁠The Pastor: A Crisis by Bradley Jersak and Wm. Paul Young⁠⁠

⁠⁠ Why Concepts Creep to the Left by Jonathan Haidt⁠⁠

Follow The Subtext: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠

Follow Lee: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠⁠

Follow Savannah: ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠

Join our Email List: ⁠⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Imagine you're in charge of pastoring a congregation amidst a war. What does it mean to love your enemies when violence is outside your window, and visceral images of your congregation’s devastation fill your phone? How would you find hope and carry on?

Palestinian Lutheran pastor Munther Isaac joins Lee C. Camp from his home in the West Bank to discuss his book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. Drawing from his experience shepherding congregations through two years of war, Munther reflects on grief, anger, and the moral danger of becoming numb to suffering, while still insisting on nonviolence, justice, and the stubborn call to love of enemy. This conversation wrestles with the collision of politics and theology, the misuse of religious language, and what authentic human flourishing, meaning, and courage can look like in the midst of rubble.

Key Ideas:

Christ also asked where God was amidst suffering. Munther insists that, in Gaza’s devastation, God is not distant but present “under the rubble,” with the oppressed, displaced, and grieving.

Nonviolence and creative resistance are needed to break cycles of violence. What it means for a Palestinian pastor to reject terrorism and militarism, yet still speak of “creative resistance in the logic of love” as a practice of justice, courage, and meaningful living.

Language can be used to warp our imagination. How labels like “terrorism” and “self-defense” can distort moral vision, and why Munther believes reclaiming moral language is essential to the common good and the search for meaning and purpose.

To stop loving is to lose our humanity. Munther’s insistence that true happiness and well-being require refusing to dehumanize even one’s enemies, guarding the heart from numbness, and insisting that we are created to love one another.

Religious imagination has real-world implications. Theological worldviews often shape policy, war, and public imagination. Munthers asks, what might it mean for theology and culture to serve justice, mercy, and flourishing instead?

A warning to our listeners—this episode contains descriptions of violence and graphic imagery. Please listen with care.

⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources and Transcript⁠⁠ for abridged episode with Munther Isaac

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠

CTA: Please donate today at ⁠⁠⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠⁠⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠⁠⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. For an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Jeff Chu.

Change can come in the most unlikely places. For Jeff Chu, he found meaning and purpose in a pile of compost.

At the peak of his journalism career — writing for Time and Fast Company, perched 29 floors above Manhattan — Jeff Chu stared out his office window and asked a question he could no longer avoid: “What is this all for?” That moment of vocational and existential reckoning set him on an unexpected journey — one that led to Princeton Theological Seminary, a plot of farmland known as the Farminary, and ultimately, to the compost pile that led him to write his book Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, which we discuss in today’s episode.

Key Ideas:

The long, honest work of vocational discernment: rage, anxiety, hard conversations with his husband, and the slow dawning realization that questions of calling and authentic living are often answered over years, not days.

Life at the Farminary: learning theology with his hands in the dirt, discovering in the compost pile that what looks like waste and failure can, through community and time, become good soil for new life, faith, and hope.

The practice of attention and slowing down—walking land after a snowfall, watching purple martins swirl over downtown Nashville, greeting a backyard mulberry tree—as a quiet path into wonder, gratitude, and the psychology of well-being in a distracted age.

What gardening teaches about relinquishing control and embracing interdependence: we can plant and tend, but we cannot make a seed grow—an agrarian lens for habit formation, spiritual practices, and surrendering our illusion of power.

Jeff’s journey of belonging as a gay Christian and Chinese American—learning to claim his story, honor his ancestors (and his grandmother’s fried rice), trust that he belongs to God, and extend that belonging outward through friendship, hospitality, and communal care.

Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and find more conversations on truth, beauty, goodness, and human flourishing at nosmallendeavor.com.

⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jeff Chu⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠

Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠

CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

AI is reshaping the music industry at a breakneck pace. AI musicians are topping charts, landing record deals, and attracting massive corporate investments. What does this mean for artists? How might this challenge us to think about embodiment, creativity, labor, and what it means to actually be human?

When AI musicians start topping the music charts, we’re not just talking about technology. We’re deciding what makes art human, what makes labor fair, and what makes a person irreplaceable.

AI musicians are breaking into the charts, labels are investing heavily in machine-generated artistry, and Christians, creators, and consumers are wrestling with what it means to open ourselves (and industries) to something that isn’t human. In this episode, Savannah and Lee unpack the rise of AI “artists” like Solomon Ray and Breaking Rust and ask how AI might transform our view of embodiment, truthfulness, and creativity.

Listen to our playlist featuring real, human artists:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/35w8gz81cYShmsf6T2hshQ?si=t0Ae38obT7q0SSfQfMuo6A

Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/the-subtext-recs/pl.u-6mo44y8imzGlYq

Things we mentioned in this episode:

No Small Endeavor Podcast Recommended Episodes

Lee's books

Jesse Welles 

Hillbilly Hymn by Nathan Evans Fox

Savannah's music

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Change can come in the most unlikely places. For Jeff Chu, he found meaning and purpose in a pile of compost.

At the peak of his journalism career — writing for Time and Fast Company, perched 29 floors above Manhattan — Jeff Chu stared out his office window and asked a question he could no longer avoid: “What is this all for?” That moment of vocational and existential reckoning set him on an unexpected journey — one that led to Princeton Theological Seminary, a plot of farmland known as the Farminary, and ultimately, to the compost pile that led him to write his book Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand, which we discuss in today’s episode.

Key Ideas:

How Jeff’s successful journalism career left him asking, “What is work for?” and wondering how to live with more meaning and purpose rather than producing a “luxury product” that might vanish without changing anyone’s life.

The long, honest work of vocational discernment: rage, anxiety, hard conversations with his husband, and the slow dawning realization that questions of calling and authentic living are often answered over years, not days.

Life at the Farminary: learning theology with his hands in the dirt, discovering in the compost pile that what looks like waste and failure can, through community and time, become good soil for new life, faith, and hope.

The practice of attention and slowing down—walking land after a snowfall, watching purple martins swirl over downtown Nashville, greeting a backyard mulberry tree—as a quiet path into wonder, gratitude, and the psychology of well-being in a distracted age.

What gardening teaches about relinquishing control and embracing interdependence: we can plant and tend, but we cannot make a seed grow—an agrarian lens for habit formation, spiritual practices, and surrendering our illusion of power.

Jeff’s journey of belonging as a gay Christian and Chinese American—learning to claim his story, honor his ancestors (and his grandmother’s fried rice), trust that he belongs to God, and extend that belonging outward through friendship, hospitality, and communal care.

Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and find more conversations on truth, beauty, goodness, and human flourishing at nosmallendeavor.com.

⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Jeff Chu

Thank you to our sponsors:

Ka’Chava: Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://kachava.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use code NSE for 15% off your next order

Boll and Branch: Get 20% off plus free shipping by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BollAndBranch.com/NSE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

AquaTru: Go to  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AquaTru.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code NSE

Piper and Leaf: Get a 10% off discount to the Advent Calendar by using my code 'NSE' at ⁠⁠⁠piperandleaf.com⁠⁠⁠

Nations U: Use code ENDEAVOR50 when you visit ⁠⁠Nationsu.edu/endeavor⁠⁠

CTA: Please donate today at ⁠MercyShips.org/podcast⁠

Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

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This is our unabridged interview with Hillary McBride.

At sixteen, Lee C. Camp drove five miles over the speed limit and was seized by terror. In his mind, if he died breaking the law, he was going to hell. That childhood fear, shaped by a theology steeped in shame and judgment, is the kind of spiritual residue clinical psychologist Hillary McBride sees in her work every day.

Clinical psychologist and researcher Hillary McBride joins Lee C. Camp to explore spiritual trauma: how religious ideas, communities, and leaders can wound our deepest sense of self — and how healing becomes possible through embodiment, grief, and honest meaning-making. Drawing from neuroscience, trauma therapy, and her book Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing, Hillary helps us name religious gaslighting, purity culture, and fear-based images of God while offering a path toward authentic human flourishing and more compassionate faith.

Key Ideas:

How Hillary defines trauma as “too much, too fast, too soon” combined with “not enough of what we needed” — and what makes spiritual trauma uniquely complex, especially in high-control religious environments that normalize harm and call it “God’s will.”

The dynamics of spiritual gaslighting: when leaders tell you your heart is deceitful, you can’t trust your own experience, and they alone can interpret God for you — often reinforced with images of hell and eternal punishment as tools of control.

How trauma fragments our sense of connection — to our bodies, to others, to the earth, and to God — and why embodiment, nervous system awareness, and somatic practices are essential for healing, not just “right beliefs” or spiritual practices that bypass our pain.

Why deep therapeutic work is not self-indulgent but a form of love: as we heal perfectionism, shame, and spiritual wounds, we become more able to live with purpose, practice courage and compassion, and participate in the healing of our communities and culture.

For more conversations like this, subscribe to No Small Endeavor.

⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Hillary McBride⁠

Thank you to our sponsors:

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Omaha Steaks: Visit ⁠OmahaSteaks.com⁠ for 50% off sitewide during their Sizzle All the Way Sale. And for an extra $35 off, use promo code FUN at checkout.

⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness.

Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices