RenewalCast

Digging in the Archives from October 2020 -- such an important discussion and deserves to be released again!!

About The Guest(s): Dr. David VanDrunen is the Robert B. Strimple Professor of Systematic Theology and Christian Ethics at Westminster Seminary, California. He has a Master's Divinity degree, a law degree, and a PhD in theological ethics. He has been a pastor and has been teaching at Westminster Seminary for almost 20 years. Dr. VanDrunen has written extensively on Christianity and culture, including the topic of the two kingdoms. Summary: Dr. David VanDrunen discusses the concept of the two kingdoms in Christianity and how it relates to engaging with culture. He explains that the two kingdoms view is not the same as Augustine's two cities paradigm, but they are compatible. The two kingdoms refer to God's rule over the world in two distinct ways: his common rule of creation and preservation, and his redemptive rule through the church. Dr. VanDrunen emphasizes that Christians are called to be involved in various areas of life and to pursue excellence and love of neighbor in all that they do. However, he cautions against trying to transform all aspects of culture according to the pattern of Christ's kingdom, as this can lead to unrealistic expectations and confusion. Instead, he suggests that Christians should focus on serving God by serving their neighbors and maintaining a balanced perspective on the institutions and activities of this world. Key Takeaways:

• The two kingdoms view promotes a healthy balance between triumphalism and withdrawal from culture.
• Christians are called to pursue excellence and love of neighbor in all areas of life.
• The church's mission is primarily focused on preaching, teaching, and shepherding, rather than transforming culture.
• Pastors should be cautious about making political judgments or imposing specific strategies on their congregations.
• Christians can be involved in cultural activities and institutions without trying to make them uniquely Christian.

Quotes:

• "We recognize that for Christians, we participate in both of these rules."
• "We recognize that these things are not the ultimate things, that these things are not where our highest allegiance lies."
• "We can be in the world, but not of this world."
• "We're serving other human beings created in God's image, and we're instruments of God in taking care of his creation."
• "We don't have to make it extraordinarily complicated… we're serving other human beings, and that's a way to show the kind of love that we're supposed to show."

Show Notes:
In this episode, we dive into the Morrow controversy and its significance in understanding key gospel truths. Our guest, Stephen Myers, provides us with a comprehensive overview of the controversy, its historical context, and its implications for covenant theology. We explore the book "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" and its authorship, the trial of John Simpson, and the General Assembly's condemnation of the Octaratar creed. Stephen also highlights the five obscured truths brought to light by the controversy and their impact on our understanding of the law, faith, and the gospel. Timestamped Chapter Summary:

• Introduction to the Morrow controversy (0:00:14)
• Importance of studying the Morrow controversy (0:00:43)
• Guest introduction: Stephen Myers (0:01:20)
• Stephen's background and ministry (0:01:36)
• Meeting William Van Dudaward in Scotland (0:02:51)
• What is the Morrow controversy? (0:03:29)
• Distinguishing between The Marrow of Modern Divinity, the controversy, and its implications (0:04:05)
• The book "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" and its authorship (0:04:22)
• The trial of John Simpson and the General Assembly's decision (0:06:12)
• The Octaratar creed and its purpose (0:07:13)
• The intention of The Marrow of Modern Divinity (0:08:34)
• The General Assembly's interpretation of the book (0:08:41)
• Concerns about legalism and antinomianism (0:08:45)
• The General Assembly's condemnation of the Octaratar creed (0:08:50)
• Thomas Boston's recommendation of The Marrow of Modern Divinity (0:09:04)
• The republishing of The Marrow of Modern Divinity (0:09:14)
• James Haddo's concerns and the General Assembly's condemnation (0:10:02)
• The representation and petition by twelve ministers (0:11:44)
• The General Assembly's response to the representation and petition (0:12:09)
• The aftermath of the controversy and its impact on covenant theology (0:12:26)
• The five truths obscured by the controversy (0:13:35)
• Erskin's assessment of the obscured truths (0:17:02)
• Clarifying the covenantal entities in Covenant Theology (0:17:09)
• The movement of salvation through the covenants (0:17:25)
• Obscure truth: believers are freed from the law as the covenant of works (0:19:05)
• Obscure truth: believers are freed from the commanding and condemning power of the covenant of works (0:20:00)
• The role of the law in the Christian life (0:21:07)
• The difference between the law in the covenant of works and the covenant of grace (0:21:13)
• The law as a guide to holiness in the covenant of grace (0:21:19)
• The third use of the law and its instruction in godliness (0:22:08)
• The plea for eternal life: Christ's righteousness imputed to believers (0:23:21)
• The controversy over the need to plead repentance and faith (0:24:08)
• The motivation for holiness in Erskin's understanding (0:24:46)
• The obscured truth: a fiduciary act or appropriating persuasion in justifying and saving faith (0:25:22)
• The distinction between assurance of faith and assurance of sense (0:26:04)
• The assurance of faith as essential to Erskin's understanding (0:26:25)
• The assurance of sense and its ebb and flow (0:27:18)
• The fifth obscured truth: the deed of gift or grant made by the Father to all hearers of the gospel (0:28:41)
• Promiscuous gospel offer and the Council of Peace covenant of works (0:29:46)
• Haddo's limited gospel offer and the distinction between the covenant of redemption and the covenant of grace (0:30:02)
• Erskin's free offer of the gospel and the assurance of faith (0:30:52)
• The accusation of antinomianism and emeraldianism (0:33:22)
• The rejection of the accusations and the controversy's focus on guilt (0:34:04)

Quotable Phrases:

• "Our minds are to be shaped and renewed by the life-giving and transforming word of God through the power of the Holy Spirit." - Colt Robinson
• "The Morrow controversy really gets at some critical gospel truth." - Stephen Myers
• "When you come to the Morrow controversy, you really have to distinguish between three things." - Stephen Myers
• "The Marrow of Modern Divinity is trying to find the right middle road between legalism and antinomianism." - Stephen Myers
• "The Octaratar creed aimed to address the legalistic preaching of new ministers." - Stephen Myers
• "The General Assembly's condemnation of The Marrow of Modern Divinity raised concerns about growing legalism." - Stephen Myers
• "The Morrow controversy itself is this disagreement really over what the marrow was teaching and whether what it was teaching was sound or not." - Stephen Myers
• "Believers are completely delivered from the commanding and condemning power of the covenant of works." - Stephen Myers
• "There's a difference between the way the law works in the covenant of works and the way the law works in the covenant of grace." - Stephen Myers
• "Pleading Christ's righteousness is all we need for our salvation." - Stephen Myers

Conclusion: The Morrow controversy holds significant importance in understanding key gospel truths and their impact on covenant theology. Through the detailed exploration of "The Marrow of Modern Divinity," the trial of John Simpson, and the General Assembly's condemnation, we gain insights into the obscured truths brought to light by this controversy. These truths include believers' freedom from the law as the covenant of works, the distinction between the law in the covenant of works and the covenant of grace, the role of the law in the Christian life, the plea for eternal life through Christ's righteousness, and the deed of gift made by the Father to all hearers of the gospel. It is essential to study and understand these truths to deepen our understanding of the gospel and its implications for our lives today. For further reading, Stephen Myers recommends "Christian Walk" by William Van Dudaward and "The Act Concerning the Doctrine of Grace" by the Associate Presbytery. The Morrow controversy continues to shape covenant theology, and its impact can still be seen in theological discussions and debates today.

Book: 40 Questions About Typology and Allegory By Mitchell Chase

Show Notes: Renewal Cast with Mitchell Chase on Typology Introduction Mitchell Chase is an associate professor of biblical studies at Southern Seminary and a local pastor at Cosmo Stale Baptist Church. He is also the author of "40 Questions on Typology and Allegory," a book that explores the subject of typology in the Bible. In this episode of Renewal Cast, Colt Robinson and Jay Whiff interview Mitchell Chase about the importance of typology in interpreting the Bible. Overview In this episode, Mitchell Chase explains the meaning of typology and its significance in biblical interpretation. He discusses how typology involves reading biblical patterns earlier in history in light of later redemptive fulfillment. He also explains the concept of antitype, which refers to the fulfillment of a person, place, event, or institution in redemptive history. The conversation delves into the historical aspect of typology, how it differs from allegory, and the dangers of allegorizing the Bible. Mitchell also shares practical applications of typology in preaching and teaching. Timestamped Chapter Summary

• Introduction (0:00:14)
• Mitchell Chase's background and achievements (0:01:50)
• Definition of typology (0:03:37)
• Meaning of antitype (0:04:23)
• Examples of typology in the Bible (0:05:43)
• Differentiating typology from apocalyptic imagery (0:07:09)
• How to identify typology in the Bible (0:08:08)
• The relationship between typology and allegory (0:11:18)
• The dangers of allegorizing the Bible (0:13:38)
• Jesus' typological interpretation of Jonah (0:09:06)
• Reading Jonah in light of the canon (0:09:54)
• The role of the New Testament in interpreting the Old Testament (0:12:10)
• How typology helps us understand the unity of the Bible (0:15:58)
• The role of the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Bible (0:18:48)
• Practical applications of typology in preaching and teaching (0:20:43)
• Interpretation of the old in the New (0:13:08)
• The unity of the Testaments (0:13:10)
• The importance of reading the Old Testament in light of the canon (0:13:34)
• The Old Testament as Christian scripture (0:14:28)
• The largest context to understand any of the individual parts (0:16:19)
• Christ and Moses as related figures (0:17:09)
• The purpose of the Scriptures (0:17:17)
• The importance of examining the whole (0:17:39)
• Reading the New Testament for typological interpretations (0:18:30)
• The limitations of the New Testament in presenting types (0:20:10)
• Jesus's teaching on interpreting the Old Testament (0:21:23)
• How non-apostles can learn to read the Old Testament (0:22:38)
• The importance of humility in interpretation (0:23:22)
• The significance of reading the Old Testament in light of Christ (0:24:57)
• The value of typological reading in enriching appreciation for the Old Testament (0:26:03)
• The challenges of preaching the Old Testament and engaging in typological reading (0:26:21)
• The levels of significance and application for the hearer in typological reading (0:28:38)
• The role of typology in strengthening confidence in the truthfulness of the Bible (0:29:18)
• Typology as a tool for apologetics (0:30:02)
• The relationship between typology and the Old Testament as Christian scripture (0:31:07)
• The role of allegory in biblical interpretation (0:32:45)
• The nature of allegorical interpretation (0:33:22)
• The importance of textual argument in allegorical interpretation (0:36:00)
• The dangers of subjective instinct in interpretation (0:37:15)
• The importance of having a textual argument in typological or allegorical suggestions (0:37:40)

Quotable Phrases

• "Typology refers to a way of reading biblical patterns that are earlier in biblical history in light of the later redemptive fulfillment." (0:03:39)
• "God has designed these [characters, events, institutions] to be images, figures, patterns that have a forward-pointing function." (0:04:06)
• "When we allegorize the Bible, we're not really taking the text seriously." (0:13:38)
• "Typology helps us see the unity of the Bible, that it's not just a collection of random stories, but it's one story that's moving towards a climax." (0:15:58)
• "The Bible is inspired by a single divine author and it's the divine authorship of Scripture that establishes the validity of typological reading." (0:13:02)
• "We want to be people who zoom in and who zoom out, who examine closely and who consider the whole." (0:17:53)
• "The New Testament authors have given us selective writings in the way that Jesus's ministry is told. We don't hear all of the teachings." (0:20:02)
• "Jesus is giving [the disciples] a hermeneutic, opening their eyes to understand the Scriptures." (0:21:25)
• "We need to approach the Old Testament praying that the Lord will guide." (0:24:55)
• "When we can show people the typological connections between Christ and the Scriptures which prepared the way for him, I think it enriches appreciation for the Old Testament among our church goers." (0:26:43)

Conclusion In this episode, Mitchell Chase explains the importance of typology in interpreting the Bible and how it helps us see the unity of the Bible. He also warns against the dangers of allegorizing the Bible and the importance of textual argument in typological or allegorical suggestions. Mitchell shares practical applications of typology in preaching and teaching and encourages us to approach the Old Testament with humility, prayer, and a desire to examine both the individual parts and the whole. Through typological reading, we can strengthen our confidence in the truthfulness of the Bible and enrich our appreciation for the Old Testament.

Check out Mike Beck's Blog and Podcast HERE!

Show Notes: RenewalCast with Mike Beck Introduction Mike Beck is a South African pastor, theologian, and author based in New Zealand. He has been in ministry for over 18 years and is currently teaching at a local college in Wellington. He is also the host of the podcast 'twoageSojourner' and has recently published his dissertation on Meredith Klein in the two kingdoms. Overview In this episode of Renewal Cast, Mike Beck joins the hosts to discuss Covenant Theology, specifically the Abrahamic covenant. They explore whether the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of grace and dive deep into the theological implications of this covenant. Timestamped Chapter Summary

• Introduction to Mike Beck's background and achievements. [00:00:14]
• Overview of the main topics discussed in the interview. [00:00:41]
• Mike Beck talks about his life and ministry in New Zealand. [00:01:53]
• Mike Beck's book on Meredith Klein in the two kingdoms. [00:03:33]
• Discussion on the Abrahamic covenant and whether it is a covenant of grace. [00:04:10]
• The significance of circumcision in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:09:08]
• The role of Abraham in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:15:38]
• The relationship between the Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic covenant. [00:22:22]
• The promise of a land in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:28:09]
• The fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant in Christ. [00:32:23]
• The implications of the Abrahamic covenant for believers today. [00:38:24]
• Scrabble on the issue of whether the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of grace or works. [00:04:45]
• The problem with oversimplifying the process of reasoning through whether the Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of grace or works. [00:07:26]
• The exegetical reality of a works basis in the Mosaic covenant. [00:11:11]
• The paradigm for a covenant of works and the absence of it in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:11:57]
• The Abrahamic covenant as a covenant of promise. [00:12:17]
• The significance of Christ as the surety of the heavenly inheritance for the true seed of Abraham. [00:12:42]
• The contrast between the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants in Paul's writings. [00:13:19]
• The principle of inheritance in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:14:49]
• The formal contrast between the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. [00:15:31]
• The typological significance of the Genesis 17 circumcision. [00:17:36]
• The double layer of typology in the Old Testament. [00:19:00]
• The unfolding of history through typology and its significance in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:20:18]
• The typological significance of Noah and other figures in the Old Testament. [00:20:25]
• The layer of typology in the Abrahamic covenant and Abraham's role in it. [00:21:07]
• Scrabble on the possibility of two separate covenants in the Abrahamic covenant. [00:23:02]
• The unity of the covenant of grace and its theological implications. [00:24:10]
• The importance of evangelical obedience in the new covenant. [00:24:43]
• The practical import of the Abrahamic covenant for believers today. [00:25:35]
• The unity of the experience of the saints through the Old and New Testaments. [00:28:14]
• The role of the sacrifices and ceremonies in the Old Testament as sacraments. [00:29:11]
• The inner core of the realized eschatology of the Old Covenant order. [00:30:09]
• The typological significance of the Old Testament pointing to Christ. [00:31:41]
• The importance of making Christ central to our theology. [00:32:07]
• The significance of conforming our theology to Christ. [00:32:32]
• Conclusion and gratitude to Mike Beck for his insights. [00:33:00]

Show Notes: RenewalCast Episode on Church Polity with Justin DeBerry Introduction In this episode of Renewal Cast, Coalt and Jay speak with Justin DeBerry, a pastor at West Center Baptist Church in Madison, South Dakota. Deburry shares his background and experiences in church ministry, and the group discusses the importance of church polity and government. Overview The conversation centers around the significance of church polity and government in creating a safe and flourishing environment for church members. DeBerry uses the metaphor of a trellis and vine to explain how good structure and order help guide the spiritual growth of the church in the right direction. The group also touches on the importance of membership, accountability, and clear decision-making processes in creating a healthy church environment. Timestamped Chapter Summary

• Introduction to Justin Deburry (0:00:14)
• Overview of the main topics discussed (0:00:33)
• Importance of church polity and government (0:03:13)
• Metaphor of trellis and vine (0:04:06)
• Creating a safe house for people (0:04:41)
• Importance of membership and accountability (0:05:07)
• Clear decision-making processes (0:05:45)
• Good church government helps create a culture of clear responsibilities and accountability (0:04:59)
• Well-thought-out biblical church government helps people flourish (0:05:38)
• Good church government protects the body from outbreaks of sin and puts boundaries and guardrails in place (0:05:55)
• God creates order to serve us (0:06:29)
• Naivety of relying solely on the Holy Spirit to work things out (0:06:29)
• The loudest person often becomes the one in charge without good church government (0:06:56)
• Need for organization and clear decision-making processes in the church (0:07:23)
• Make decisions ahead of time to handle problems in the church (0:08:13)
• Constitution and church documents create unity and harmony in the body (0:08:39)
• Church is a monarchy with Jesus as king (0:10:13)
• The Bible doesn't tell us everything about polity but makes a few things clear (0:11:01)
• The distinct roles of vocational pastors and lay elders (0:11:32)
• Importance of defining roles in the church (0:11:57)
• Elders and deacons (0:12:06)
• Elders provide spiritual care, deacons provide physical care (0:14:14)
• Elders focus on prayer, teaching, counseling, and discipling; deacons focus on buildings, budgets, benevolence, and physical aspects of ministry (0:15:20)
• Pastor/Elder is an office of teaching and authority for teaching; deacon is an office of service (0:17:06)
• Importance of having clear organization and decision-making processes in the church (0:17:23)
• Elder board and deacon board distinction (0:17:50)
• Importance of appealing to the Bible in church government decisions (0:19:35)
• Process of transitioning to elder deacon government (0:19:53)
• Importance of taking time to teach and be deliberate in church government changes (0:21:03)
• Need for discernment in timing of church government changes (0:21:55)
• Importance of giving people time to adjust to church government changes (0:23:01)
• Emotional capital and leading during church government changes (0:23:16)
• Importance of defining roles and clarifying duties (0:24:19)
• Finding healthy churches and resources for transitioning church government (0:24:27)
• Valuable principles from the business world for church government (0:25:06)
• Looking to the Bible for guidance on church government (0:25:43)
• The roles of elders and deacons in the church (0:28:43)
• Importance of choosing leaders with good character (0:33:08)
• Biblical qualifications for church leaders (0:33:38)
• The effectiveness of God's way (0:34:05)

Relevant Links and Resources

• West Center Baptist Church: https://westcenterbaptist.com/

Quotable Phrases

• "Good church government helps create a culture of clear responsibilities and accountability." (0:04:59)
• "Well-thought-out biblical church government helps people flourish." (0:05:38)
• "God creates order to serve us." (0:06:29)
• "The loudest person often becomes the one in charge without good church government." (0:06:56)
• "The distinct roles of vocational pastors and lay elders." (0:11:32)
• "Elders provide spiritual care, deacons provide physical care." (0:14:14)
• "Importance of choosing leaders with good character." (0:33:08)
• "When we do things God's way, it just works better." (0:34:08)

Social Media Handles and CTAs Follow Renewal Cast on Instagram @renewalcast and Twitter @renewalcastpod for more content on church renewal and growth. Conclusion The importance of church polity and government cannot be overstated in creating a safe and flourishing environment for church members. Good structure and order help guide the spiritual growth of the church in the right direction. Membership, accountability, and clear decision-making processes are vital in creating a healthy church environment. Defining roles and clarifying duties for leaders is also essential. As Justin Deburry reminds us, when we do things God's way, it just works better.

Check out Kim Riddlebarger's Blog

Find Jeff Taylor's book HERE

Want a good intro to Covenant Theology? Start with this podcast and then GET THIS BOOK!

Learn more about Chuck Hill HERE!

Check out the Chapter on this subject in THIS book!