RIMScast

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Rich Lenkov, Founder and CEO of SERMA, about the unique aspects of risk management in sports and entertainment, such as stadium security and crowd safety for a big game or event. They look at what SERMA offers to risk professionals in sports and entertainment. Rich speaks of cross-disciplinary collaboration and the specialized content offered by SERMA. Rich shares his thoughts about the Day of the Endangered Lawyer and the importance of the Constitution and international law.

Listen for tips on sports and entertainment risk management.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest is Rich Lenkov, the Founder and CEO of SERMA, the Sports and Entertainment Risk Management Alliance.

[:43] We will talk about all things sports and entertainment risk-related and get his play-by-play on what it takes to succeed in sports and entertainment risk. But first…

[:54] RIMS-CRMP and Some Prep Courses. The next virtual prep courses will be held on March 110th and 11th and again on April 21st and 22nd. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:12] RIMS Virtual Workshops are coming up. On February 2nd and 3rd, Pat Saporito will host the debut of the two-day course, "Storytelling with Data for Risk Management".

[1:26] On February 4th and 5th, Ken Baker will return to deliver the course, "Applying and Integrating ERM".

[1:35] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:47] RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:51] The next RIMS Webinar will celebrate Women's History Month by exploring "Hard Hats & High Stakes: Women Leaders Shaping Construction Risk Management" on March 6th.

[2:00] We'll be joined by a Chief Risk Officer, an underwriter, and a broker, who will explore their career paths and risk and safety philosophies, and lend some insight as to why this is the time for the next generation of leaders to rise. Check out the link in this episode's show notes.

[2:23] The RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:36] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from April 14th through June 23rd. Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:52] On with the show! Our guest today is Rich Lenkov, Founder and CEO of SERMA, the Sports and Entertainment Risk Management Alliance. Rich is a lawyer by trade, but he is vested in the success of risk management, particularly against the backdrop of sports and entertainment.

[3:13] With all the developments, regulations, or lack thereof, Rich has got a lot to say. We'll have a volley of ideas about sports risk management, active shooter preparedness at a stadium, name, image, and likeness rights for college athletes, and other topics.

[3:41] Rich is also the host of SERMA's SERMAPod, so it's nice to have a podcasting brother on the show. Let's get to it…

[3:49] Interview! Rich Lenkov, welcome to RIMScast!

[4:07] Rich tells about hosting the SERMAPod. About 11 years ago, Chicago radio station WGN approached him to do a legal podcast for them, Legal Face-Off. About five years ago, SERMA started the SERMAPod. It's been a lot of fun! This is SERMA's fifth year, too.

[4:50] Rich is a Capital Member of Downey & Lenkov. He's a full-time lawyer. This is Rich's 30th year in practice, having started in 1996.

[5:16] Downey & Lenkov began in 2001. Rich has been with the firm since 2002. A Midwest-based law firm, Downey & Lenkov primarily handles insurance defense in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin.

[5:29] Downey & Lenkov does insurance defense in all its forms, from sports and entertainment law to premises liability, workers' compensation, employment, construction, products, and anything like that. They also do some transactional work and some professional liability.

[5:47] That's Rich's day job. They're busy and have lots of clients. There's too much work, and not enough lawyers to do it! Rich says that servicing his clients is really rewarding.

[6:07] Rich also has a production company. With that background and having worked in sports and entertainment law, he realized that there were not a lot of resources devoted to sports and entertainment risk management.

[6:43] In discussing these issues with clients and colleagues, Rich saw a hole in the market for someone to provide content, networking, resources, and information-sharing. So he thought, why not? That's how SERMA got started.

[7:01] Justin gives a shoutout to Emily Buckley, a member of both RIMS and SERMA. SERMA hosted a wonderful event at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025 in Seattle, and Emily invited Justin.

[7:41] Rich has been a RIMS member, strong advocate, and supporter for almost his whole career. He finds it to be an incredible resource for knowledge and networking. He says the regional and national events are second to none. Lots of SERMA members are RIMS members.

[8:03] Early on, SERMA decided to partner with groups like RIMS and local RIMS chapters. As the new kids on the block, SERMA is indebted to RIMS for inviting them to host events with them.

[8:49] Rich says that a lot of the risks in sports and entertainment relate to high-profile companies, teams, leagues, and studios. The whole world is watching. When there's a tragedy or a weather event at a sporting event, it's not limited to the grounds.

[9:17] There is a lot of scrutiny. Laws are involved, or legislation is produced. These are frequently ground-breaking losses for high-profile brands. Brand protection is important. Some of the biggest companies on the planet are very concerned about how their brand is perceived.

[9:39] Rich says, the types of risks and claims are different from "garden-variety" hospitality or construction claims. You're dealing with unique circumstances. How do you extricate actors from the jungles of Costa Rica in a weather event? How do you protect the Super Bowl?

[10:03] Those are not things that risk managers deal with every day. They are unique, specialized risks. Rich says he's learning new things every time SERMA provides content that's not seen anywhere else.

[10:17] Justin adds that the teams and athletes themselves are some of the most recognizable brands in history, such as Michael Jordan.

[10:32] Rich says SERMA members deal with high-profile claims and risks. SERMA has done lots of content on handling workers' compensation claims from players. A lot of high-profile athletes, making a lot of money, are also pursuing workers' compensation claims.

[10:58] Workers' compensation for highly-paid athletes is very expensive. All the teams are very attuned to what they are spending on workers' compensation.

[11:11] SERMA brings together lawyers, risk managers, insurers, claims professionals, vendors, outside counsel, and other vendors who support the industry. At the end of 2025, SERMA had around 700 members with a ratio between industry professionals and vendors of seven to one.

[11:41] Rich says SERMA consciously makes its environment one where risk managers, claims managers, and general counsel can meet and share resources in a relatively confidential way.

[12:02] SERMA is not a space with a lot of salesmanship, but networking is encouraged. SERMA wants everyone to develop relationships. SERMA's priority is to have great, cutting-edge content, rather than just selling products.

[12:43] Rich believes cross-disciplinary collaboration is important. We learn from each other. When Rich handles a sports or entertainment claim, he sees it from his perspective; he doesn't know what it's like to have boots on the ground at a venue when they are securing a big event.

[13:12] It's important to collaborate with people who handle safety and security. When Rich speaks as an attorney to these folks, they have no idea what effect their initial investigation of a claim will have on discovery or if they go to trial. You have to learn from each other.

[13:35] Rich finds that collaboration with risk professionals has been great. SERMA's risk professionals bring a unique perspective to the table.

[13:52] A risk manager for a team or venue has to cover everything. A whole world of claims happens on any given sporting event. So much goes on behind the scenes that impacts the risks that the risk manager has to deal with.

[14:09] Rich took his son to a Bears game over the weekend; they enjoyed it and went home. The risk manager, for weeks and months before, was dealing with everything from security to food preparation, active shooter drills, player injuries, and claims.

[14:29] There is so much that any given game brings on a risk manager. The risk manager starts all over again the next day. It's a challenging environment. Rich says most risk managers would tell you that their jobs are really rewarding.

[14:59] Rich was talking to the risk manager for the Boston Celtics. He gets to watch the Celtics every day. Sports risk management is difficult, it's challenging, but it's also a lot of fun. You get to be in spaces that most of us can only dream of.

[15:14] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[15:36] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[15:51] Let's Return to Our Interview with SERMA CEO Rich Lenkov!

[16:11] Rich says that between operations and the risk team, there is sometimes a lack of communication. Programs that are running well have good communication between operations and the risk team.

[16:28] The people running security and game day operations have serious jobs with lots involved. They might not be thinking of some of the things the risk manager thinks about.

[16:42] As people see the effects of proper planning and enterprise risk management, they are training the people on the ground to react as quickly as possible and employ many preventive measures to avoid issues in the first place.

[17:47] Rich says trending and current topics drive SERMA. SERMA wants to provide content you can't get anywhere else. This space evolves every day. Wherever you get your news, you'll see issues involving sports, entertainment, the law, and risk, almost every day.

[18:24] SERMA tries to be a provider of cutting-edge content, as well as a good basis of content that applies to lots of areas in sports and entertainment risk. SERMA decided from the beginning not to be a provider of content and resources for everyone.

[18:52] Rich says some of SERMA's webinars only attract a small group of people. SERMA did a webinar on roller skating risk. That's not for everyone, but it's important to a lot of SERMA's members. It's not something you'll see anywhere else. It's very specific, cutting-edge content.

[19:13] Justin hosts webinars for RIMS. Some attract a wider audience than others. Quality is prized over quantity. Some webinars that are not as well-attended are information-rich. Some are very exciting to learn about.

[19:41] Rich says SERMA was very conscious from the beginning to be a different organization. SERMA is not looking for volume of membership or content. It's looking for quality. SERMAnar in New York, SERMA's tentpole event, is capped at 150 people. In LA last year, it sold out quickly.

[20:05] SERMA wants people to leave events feeling that they went to an intimate gathering and met two or three good connections. That's a good use of time. SERMA wants to be a quality content provider.

[20:33] SERMAnar IV is The Sports and Entertainment Risk Conference, coming up on April 16th and 17th at Citi Field in New York City. The agenda is packed.

[20:47] There are six panels in a day and a half, with lots of great content covering everything from IP issues to how to break into sports and entertainment risk management. There is a general counsel forum. There's a lot of great content. Citi Field is a beautiful place.

[21:59] A Final Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's goal to help build a talent pipeline of risk management and insurance professionals is achieved, in part, by its collaboration with risk management and insurance educators across the U.S. and Canada.

[22:19] Spencer awards undergraduate, graduate, Ph.D., and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships to students enrolled at an accredited college or university in the U.S. and Canada, and physically studying in either location. No remote coursework eligibility from other locations.

[22:36] Including part-time, graduate scholarships to risk management and insurance professionals continuing their education.

[22:41] Since 1980, Spencer has invested more than $11.1 million in the scholarship program with awards to over 1,700 students. More than 85% of Spencer's scholarship recipients remain in the industry to this day.

[22:57] They've got undergraduate scholarships, full-time Master's scholarships, part-time Master's scholarships, pre-dissertation Ph.D. candidates, doctoral candidates, and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships all open now. The application deadline is January 31st, 2026.

[23:18] Visit SpencerEd.org/scholarships. You'll find the different application buttons. See the link in this episode's show notes for more information.

[23:30] Let's Return to the Conclusion of Our Interview with SERMA CEO Rich Lenkov!

[23:39] Justin asks about Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) rights for college athletes, and the 2021 Supreme Court case NCAA v. Alston, that players in college have the right to earn from their NIL. They can be endorsed by a brand.

[24:14] Rich says Alston was the key case that challenged NCAA rules on athlete compensation. The Supreme Court unanimously held that the NCAA's restrictions were unlawful under the Sherman Act.

[24:34] It didn't directly address NIL, but it opened the floodgates. Rich comments on how we're seeing the effects of this every day. The Ole Miss quarterback just filed a lawsuit to have a seventh year of eligibility. For many of these players, it's more lucrative to stay in college.

[25:37] Rich says this affects women's college basketball and volleyball, as well. It's benefiting all college athletes and giving more agency to women college athletes. Libby Dunne does a sports clothing line. This is all tied to social media and influencing.

[26:41] The Transfer Portal has given athletes the ability to have more of a hand in choosing their future and career.

[27:08] Rich says a couple of weeks ago, a lot of major college coaches were bemoaning NIL. There's still no directive from the NCAA on this, in the fifth year. Major programs are complaining. There's room for more regulation. Universities are scrambling to catch up.

[28:05] There's a lot of pending legislation. There hasn't been any movement on setting forth regulations we could all abide by that level the playing field. Some universities have a lot deeper pockets than others to deal with this.

[28:31] Until there's legislation that makes this a little more equitable, you're going to have a lot of different applications of NIL.

[28:42] Justin says January 24th is the Day of the Endangered Lawyer. It highlights the threats to the rule of law and legal independence and the physical safety of lawyers, judges, and legal professionals.

[29:07] Rich says, Love Your Lawyer is another way of saying it. International law matters. On his Legal Face-off podcast, Rich discussed this recently with a professor on whether snatching a foreign leader and bringing him to justice in your country is lawful.

[29:44] Rich says the adage that everybody hates their lawyer until they need one is true. Not only lawyers but good lawyers are in danger.

[30:24] Rich's advice to lawyers is to stick with it. It's hard to stand up to some of the injustices and pressures you might face. The Constitution and international law will outlive most of us. They provide a compass to stick to what's right.

[31:15] Rich offers advice on how to succeed in sports and entertainment risk. There is a panel at SERMAnar in New York on it. You have to hustle, network, and get to know people.

[31:34] No one is going to knock on your door and give you a job in this incredibly competitive space. A lot of young lawyers want to go into sports and entertainment. You've got to hustle. There are lots of resources out there if you take the initiative.

[31:50] Start wherever you can. Get your foot in the door with any sports or entertainment entity or law firm in sports and entertainment. After that, kick the door down and hustle.

[32:18] Rich, it's been such a pleasure to record with you and to meet you. We've got the links to SERMA and The SERMA Pod in this episode's show notes. Hopefully, we'll have a chance to catch up at RISKWORLD.

[32:51] Special thanks again to SERMA CEO Rich Lenkov for joining us here on RIMScast. A link to TheSERMA.org is in this episode's show notes. There you will also find information about the SERMAnar IV, which will be held on April 16th and 17th, 2026, at Citi Field in New York.

[33:11] Be sure to check out The SERMA Pod, which is their podcast. I may be making an appearance there in the near future.

[33:20] In this episode's show notes, there are links to prior RIMScast episodes featuring RIMS members who are active in sports and entertainment risk. Those episodes are a slam dunk!

[33:33] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[34:00] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[34:18] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[34:35] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[34:50] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[35:04] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[35:15] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | April‒June 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS Now

Spencer Educational Foundation Scholarships | Submission Deadline Jan. 31, 2026

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Video Series Featuring Joe Milan!

SERMA | The SERMAPod | SERMAnar IV: The Sports & Entertainment Risk Conference

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep

March 10‒11 | April 21‒22, 2026 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

"Storytelling with Data for Risk Management" | Feb. 2‒3

"Applying and Integrating ERM" | Feb 4

"Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" | March 4‒5

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

"Hard Hats & High Stakes: Women Leaders Shaping Construction Risk Management" | March 6 | Presented by RIMS

RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"ERM, Retail, and Risk with Jeff Strege"

"Supply and Bike Chains with Emily Buckley"

"Risk and Leadership Patterns with Super Bowl Champion Ryan Harris"

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL (New!)

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

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RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

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About our guest: Rich Lenkov, Founder and CEO of SERMA

Capital Member of Downey & Lenkov LLC

The SERMA Pod

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Deyna Feng, Director of Captive Programs at Cummins, about her role at the company. They discuss the reality of climate change risks and how Cummins uses captives to address them in the short- and long-term in the U.S. and 36 countries globally. They talk about the various facets of the company, from property to supply chain, to business continuity, to human resources, at risk from climate events. They discuss the variety of regulatory sustainability reporting requirements around the globe.

Listen for steps to take to use captives for your climate risk planning and strategy.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our topic today is the interconnection between captives and climate risk. To help me delve deeper into this connection, I've asked Deyna Feng of Cummins to rejoin us. It will be great to catch up with her!

[:49] You're going to walk away from this episode with a lot of great ideas for your captive programs. But first…

[:55] RIMS-CRMP and Some Prep Courses. The next virtual prep course will be held on March 110th and 11th and again on April 21st and 22nd. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:12] RIMS Virtual Workshops are coming up. On January 21st and 22nd, Chris Hansen returns to deliver the course, "Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US".

[1:26] On February 4th and 5th, Ken Baker will return to deliver the course, "Applying and Integrating ERM".

[1:36] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:47] RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:57] The RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:10] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from April 14th through June 23rd. Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:24] On with the show! Deyna Feng is rejoining us for the first time since 2021. She is the Director of Captive Programs at Cummins.

[2:38] Cummins designs, manufactures, distributes, and services a broad range of power solutions, from traditional diesel and natural gas engines to advanced electric, hybrid, and hydrogen fuel cell technologies.

[2:50] Deyna is here to discuss how climate change has had a huge influence on how she manages captives for Cummins. We're also going to speak a little more broadly about the ways you might think about climate risk as you launch or alter your captive program. Let's get to it…

[3:06] Interview! Deyna Feng, welcome back to RIMScast!

[3:21] Deyna Feng has been working for Cummins for the past 15 years. She was always with the risk insurance team and, since 2015, she's managed the captive operations, the insurance programming inside it, and the whole insurance company.

[3:52] Deyna started with Cummins as Regional Risk Manager for Asia Pacific. Then she joined the company to manage its captive. Deyna has been really passionate about this career path because captive is such a wonderful risk management and risk insurance tool.

[4:08] Deyna says Cummins has been using its captive constantly and actively managing different types of risk and profiles.

[4:34] A captive is an insurance company. Cummins's captive is a pure captive, or a single-parent captive, so it purely insures the parent company's risks and business.

[4:44] The benefit of a captive insurance company is that, instead of buying insurance from the commercial market, you can really tailor your insurance program within a captive.

[4:55] They also provide financial benefits like tax benefits and some other things you can manage through the captive.

[5:03] For the past few years, it's been hard on the insurance market on the property and the liability side. Cummins uses its captive, proactively, managing the whole program in a really unique way. Everything is tailor-made to your own program, your own risk.

[5:21] If you are a good risk management account, you will receive benefits by doing such a self-insurance arrangement.

[5:38] Justin recalls from reporting that in 2025, there are hundreds more captives among medium and small businesses than there were 20 years ago. Feng agrees. It's a booming market for the whole captive industry. It's growing for all captive domiciles around the world.

[6:01] Deyna and Justin believe that captives are a big part of the future of risk management.

[6:09] Justin reconnected with Deyna because of her unique philosophy that climate change can greatly impact a captive and, therefore, a company.

[6:38] Deyna thinks everyone is feeling the effects of climate change in the current environment. They see more things happening, more frequently, with more severity; events like wildfires, floods, and hurricanes.

[6:53] Deyna says, Before, it's rarely showing anywhere, or a 500-year event, then suddenly, something happens. We experience such dramatic events in different facilities globally. So, we are thinking such events can escalate super quickly and become catastrophic.

[7:17] Deyna asks how we can manage such events, especially when you are dealing with a large insurance program, and it involves a big business interruption to your global company.

[7:29] Deyna thinks there is a growing concern for global companies like Cummins for a few important reasons. First, frequency and severity are rising. Also, it's less predictable in certain areas, and there will be increasing exposure for large, global facilities.

[8:08] Deyna speaks of supply chains. For a large manufacturing company with a global footprint, it's important to manage supply chain risk in a better way. The climate risk is changing globally, so it will impact Cummins's supply chain risk to a large extent.

[8:30] Deyna says it also increased the complexity of managing claims, like a hurricane claim. Hurricane Helena is our recent example. It happened over a year ago, but it impacted multiple locations in that area and also impacted Cummins's warehouses and logistics centers.

[8:50] It impacted the whole business revenue and the whole area. So, it becomes a much more complex claim to manage and handle. Even now, Cummins is still dealing with the whole impact of that Hurricane Helena flood claim.

[9:11] Justin asks about polycrisis and how one event triggers others that the captive manager has to oversee and try to resolve.

[9:31] Deyna says, Cummins has suppliers in that area. If those suppliers don't have good insurance coverage, then Cummins helps them out, so they can help Cummins's local business. That impacts a lot. Cummins is still dealing with a business interruption claim from that event.

[10:06] Deyna says one important area for climate risk management is dealing with government regulatory requirement reporting changes, not just in the U.S, but worldwide, with international reporting.

[10:25] Certain countries are more advanced in regulation development. So, for those countries, Cummins has to make sure to do a proper evaluation and prepare for those government reporting requirements.

[10:44] That involves a whole set of reviews from different lenses. To manage the risk more effectively and efficiently, Cummins needs to consider a few options. One is about data.

[10:59] The whole risk management and risk insurance program is data-driven, so Cummins makes sure to gather important climate risk-related data and then models it globally in CAD. This way, Cummins can anticipate future risk and business impact.

[11:24] The second is the partners Cummins works with. Those are insurance, reinsurance, and brokers. They offer different types of climate risk-related data analysis.

[11:38] From there, certain captives can use such data-driven arrangements and cat modelling to plan their parametric solution. That's a unique type of risk, tailor-made.

[12:00] Deyna says Cummins's global insurance program has broad coverage, already covering such climate risks. That's useful for specific risks in certain areas. You have the trend, you see the need, and then you use this to pay claims quickly without complex claim procedures.

[12:28] The other area Cummins has been doing is leveraging the data it receives and then utilizing the captive to do the strategic planning. That is how Cummins utilizes the captives to structure its global property liability program.

[12:46] And then Cummins uses the captive as a fronting mechanism, and then puts more layers within the captive to manage large claims more flexibly.

[12:58] Then the other part is using the captive to buy reinsurance to transfer certain catastrophic events or the higher risks to the reinsurance market. So it's a diversified captive strategy.

[13:15] Justin asks about business continuity planning. Deyna says that to manage climate risk, business continuity planning is important. Lots of companies use it to manage traditional risks, like a flood or a fire, but it is also important to deal with future climate risk resiliency planning.

[13:39] The supply chain risk is part of that, and then when you identify the high-risk area, like a heat wave, or cold stress, or water stress, how can you make sure your local businesses are well prepared to deal with those situations, especially in the long run?

[14:00] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[14:22] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[14:37] Let's Return to Our Interview with Deyna Feng!

[14:45] Deyna says Cummins is based in Indiana. Deyna lives there.

[14:53] Deyna says, This year, the snow hit us super early. Before, it's after Christmas time, when we start seeing snow, and January is super cold, and this year, like, early December, we're already in cold weather.

[15:05] Justin says, Yeah, we're recording in mid-December right now, and we received somewhere between 6 and 12 inches of snow on Sunday, just a few days before recording this.

[15:17] Justin continues, And now, today, we're gonna be hitting the 50 degree mark. So everything is finally gonna melt away, but it's also gonna wreak havoc on our senses, and people are gonna get sick, right? That just happens. Yes, I'm just venting here about climate change.

[15:41] Globally, Deyna has regional risk managers, a renewal team, and a claims team, who work together as one big team of around 16 people in total.

[16:07] Dena describes her role as Director of Captive Programs. The insurance company is complex. They have to deal with all the government requirements and year-end matters, program renewal, and Cummins's captive, covering the international employee benefits side.

[16:20] Cummins's captive covers the medical and the non-medical program for over 36 countries.

[16:29] Justin interviewed the Risk Manager of the Year for 2025, Jennifer Pack, with Hilton. In addition to her role in risk management for Hilton, she was also the captive manager, and she said that sometimes that's a one-day-a-week job, and sometimes it's a four-day-a-week job.

[6:47] It really depends on various things, and climate change was one of the items that she mentioned. Justin says, It's something that our audience should be thinking about, because captive management is not going away.

[17:05] Justin says, It is something that you want to have in your arsenal as a risk professional, and it can enhance your career, like it's doing for Deyna.

[17:16] Justin says, We've seen how some policymakers in the U.S. try to debunk climate change, even though there's overwhelming evidence to suggest that it is a real thing, and it still ranks very highly on the World Economic Forum's list of top risks.

[17:31] Justin asks, Against that backdrop, how are you swaying the decision makers at Cummins these days? You just said you were going to speak to some of your internal stakeholders, so what do you need to do to convince them?

[17:45] Deyna says that the World Economic Forum emphasizes that climate change now represents massive physical and transition risks, with over $3.6 trillion in damage from disasters since 2000. So, it's a serious number.

[18:10] Deyna says, Our CEO takes climate change seriously. We are trying to be the environmental sustainability advocacy lead in the industry and market.

[18:23] Deyna says, Cummins has a strategy and commitment to the 2030 environment goals and 2050 targets. We are doing Destination Zero, which is helping not just our own facility, but also our customers and suppliers to navigate the energy transition and environmental goals.

[18:46] Cummins's CEO is Jennifer Rumsey. Deyna says she's an awesome, wonderful CEO.

[19:07] Justin says, It sounds like you have a line of communication to her.

[19:11] Deyna says, We do. This is an important topic. We do annual reporting, including all the aspects relating to this Destination Zero goal. It involves so many functions within Cummins to work with these goals and targets.

[10:38] The goals include decarbonization, material changes, community goals to address the site and community greenhouse gas emissions, and also, volatile organic components, water, and waste.

[19:56] There are so many things that can be leveraged and developed perfectly with this approach.

[20:06] A Final Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's goal to help build a talent pipeline of risk management and insurance professionals is achieved, in part, by its collaboration with risk management and insurance educators across the U.S. and Canada.

[20:25] Spencer awards undergraduate, graduate, Ph.D., and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships to students enrolled at an accredited college or university in the U.S. and Canada, and physically studying in either location. No remote coursework eligibility from other locations.

[20:42] Including part-time, graduate scholarships to risk management and insurance professionals continuing their education.

[20:48] Since 1980, Spencer has invested more than $11.1 million in the scholarship program with awards to over 1,700 students. More than 85% of Spencer's scholarship recipients remain in the industry to this day.

[21:03] They've got undergraduate scholarships, full-time Master's scholarships, part-time Master's scholarships, pre-dissertation Ph.D. candidates, doctoral candidates, and pre-instructor of practice scholarships all open now. The application deadline is January 31st, 2026.

[21:25] Visit SpencerEd.org/scholarships. You'll find the different application buttons. See the link in this episode's show notes for more information.

[21:37] Let's Return to the Conclusion of Our Interview with Deyna Feng!

[22:00] Justin asks Deyna what makes captives uniquely suited to handle climate-driven volatility, compared to traditional insurance solutions.

[22:06] Deyna says, Climate risk is quite dynamic, systematic, and also regulatory-driven. It needs continuous investment to understand your climate risk and the government reporting requirements. It's not just one-time managing the risk.

[22:25] Deyna says, We look at now as the baseline, with the short-term, mid-term, and long-term, all the way to the end of the century, how the climate risk score is changing for our global facilities. Those are evolving risk scores, not just a one-time risk score.

[22:51] Cummins takes a systematic and holistic approach to evaluate the climate risk, so it's not like a daily market change.

[23:10] Deyna says, The other part is regulatory diversity, for the whole climate risk aspect, how you manage the risk, matching with different compliance requirements.

[23:22] In the U.S., the federal government sets the broad framework, like the Clean Air Act, the Inflation Reduction Act, and some national emission standards. But then, across the 50 states, over 35 states enforce renewable portfolio standards or clean energy standards.

[23:41] Different states have different goals, like greenhouse gas reduction targets, and then some other things. And some states are super aggressive on their targets, with much higher standards and quicker standards than the federal guidelines.

[24:05] Cummins has a designated team focusing on all the government requirements, the reporting, etc. We share data internally across the broader function teams.

[24:24] If we collect data on the climate risk score, we want to make sure everybody leverages the same set of data. We have the same tone and the same message passing on to the global leaders, regional leaders, and even site leaders.

[24:37] Justin asks about having systems in place.

[24:42] Deyna says, We are building a risk framework around this area. That includes the centralized data. We share the same set of data with the stakeholders. We do need internal stakeholder alignment.

[24:55] Deyna says, We have strategic alignment, talking about the same thing. Then we also need to work with site leaders at the site-level resiliency on their business continuity planning.

[25:10] Deyna's team provides global training because climate risk is still quite a new concept to many people managing the risk. Deyna wants to make sure they understand where we come from, how we manage the data, and the risk.

[25:21] Justin asks about Cummins's risk insurance and captive strategy.

[25:28] Cummins uses captives strategically. From this climate risk management, Deyna says, we also have different approaches, from a few lenses. First is the risk data.

[25:41] Deyna says, We select a good partner to help us review our global portfolio, and we gather the individual site climate risk score.

[25:51] Deyna says, Then we put them together so that we can generate the whole company profile, the regional risk map, down to the country level and site-specific level about where the risky areas are for the individual site from a climate risk perspective.

[26:06] Deyna says, Then, from the insurance program perspective, we also have a layered insurance program with our captive actively involved in leading the strategy and also, doing the transfer of the larger layers or risks to the reinsurance market.

[26:23] Deyna continues, So, we buy the multi-year aggregate stop-loss in the captive to cap our volatility. Then, there are some other ways about parametric insurance that other companies can consider.

[26:36] For Cummins, because we have broad coverage, we already consider such cat risks, including future rainfall, wind, and heat-related scenarios.

[26:48] In addition to these, supply chain risk is an important piece to manage. So, contingency BI is also an important area to be considered in your insurance program, and it also covers the climate risk profile.

[27:02] Deyna says, We have been using captive funding for the business resilience project. We do the business continuity planning stress test globally, and we also fund the climate risk project from the captive.

[27:34] Deyna says, The most important thing is how to manage your employees' well-being. That's not just physical health; we are talking more about mental health. And to be frank, in certain areas, people already experience the climate risk impact, like heat, in the summertime.

[27:52] Cummins has its International Employee Benefits Program in its captive, leveraging this program together with the climate risk management and working with HR, about how to better manage climate risk, with resiliency, in the future.

[28:09] Deyna continues, talking about mental health support during disaster, emergency relocation, and making people, employees, and their families feel they are safe, working in a safe environment, and also that they don't need to worry about climate risk impact on operations.

[28:20] Justin asks Deyna for words for young risk professionals coming up and organizations beginning to explore captives for climate risk financing. What are the misconceptions or blind spots that she sees?

[29:44] Deyna says a blind spot about climate change is thinking that climate risk is too long-term for a captive and that captives are for managing whatever is coming up suddenly. In reality, floods, wildfires, and hurricanes are happening now and more frequently than before.

[30:26] If we can model these types of risks for short-term, medium-term, and long-term retention strategies, that's important for captive or risk insurance for large companies to consider the future strategy.

[30:41] The other thing Deyna hears is that captives only handle traditional reinsurance programs. Cummins uses the captive to fund risk insurance strategies or projects. Gathering climate risk data, building up the model, and cat modelling.

[31:00] This also includes thinking about how to integrate this type of risk into risk financing and the insurance program. Cummins is managing it actively.

[31:12] The other thing Deyna hears is that data is optional. So, especially for captive, everything is data-driven.

[31:25] We have to do cat modelling, we have to make sure we buy the proper insurance program with proper premium payment, and also whether the retention level is appropriate for our site level, for captive, and for the overall program. So, data is the key, or data is the king.

[32:00] Deyna says this touches employee safety, employee benefits, supply chain risk, and environmental liability. Lots of areas touch climate risk, not just the property program.

[32:26] Deyna lists some suggestions. Build a holistic climate risk profile within the company, across all the global sites, that covers all the countries. Each company will change dramatically in climate risk. It must be data-driven.

[33:01] To gather the data, find a proper partner to work with a reputable climate-risk expert to help you check legislative changes, access the hazard or cat modelling, and provide good climate risk data matching with those regulatory changes and compliance requirements.

[33:24] Then support your thorough risk evaluation. That's the data part.

[33:28] Then, on top of the data, build a good insurance management program, and leverage your captive to build the captive strategy relating to retention, the limit, and the parametrics, insurance program design, like parametric triggers.

[33:45] In addition to the insurance program, you have the ERM, the Enterprise Risk Management, ESG reporting, and all the compliance relating to country requirements and state law requirements.

[33:58] In Europe, it's CSRD. In the U.S., it's an SEC filing. So, there are lots of different regulatory requirements relating to this area. You want to make sure your data can support your reporting and then can be sustainable, year over year, not just a one-year data point.

[34:15] Then, the other thing is the business continuity. Make sure that the good BCP management or integration, including climate risk, especially for all the high risks you are capturing, you should have really good operational resilience to face that.

[34:33] Justin mentions that CSRD stands for Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, which sets the standard for how EU companies need to report on their sustainability work. He had to plug that in because there are so many abbreviations and acronyms in risk management.

[34:53] Deyna's last point is to share the data internally with a cross-functional group, with internal stakeholders, including senior leadership reporting up to the CEO and COO level.

[35:05] Share the data with the middle management team, global team, global leadership team, global management team, and then down to the site level.

[35:15] All the parties need to work together to shape a holistic strategy around climate risk management. It's not just for risk insurance or captive only.

[35:25] Justion says, Excellent. And so these are great tips for everybody. If you're thinking about launching a captive against your climate risk data profile, I think this is the way to go.

[35:37] Justin says, Ms. Rumsey is your CEO, but before that, she was the Chief Operating Officer. So, you must have already had a good working relationship with her before she was promoted, right?

[36:02] Deyna says, Yes. This is an important area, because we have not only climate risk, but also the whole risk relating to this area, managed by an environmental sustainability team.

[36:16] They organize all the different functions, trying to achieve the goals, and then figure out all the different aspects of our operation and what we can do to meet our future goals.

[36:27] This is long-term-driven. It's not like a five-year project; you get it done, and the project is completed. It's long-term.

[36:35] Justin says, Ms. Rumsey had come on as COO in March of 2021. You and I first met, or at least recorded the RIMSCast episode, in May of 2021.

[36:46] So right around that time, you were probably having higher-level discussions with her, and now you already had her ear, so I think that just speaks to the value of relationship building along the way. Would you agree?

[36:58] Deyna says, We have the designated team internally managing this area, and we do connect through that lens, trying to gather the data a long, long time ago.

[37:10] Justin says, But it's the sort of thing where, first of all, it's nice to see that people are promoted from within. I think that's a really great thing that Cummins did.

[37:18] And second, the fact that you already had that line of communication, and it's not like you had to establish a new one with a new CEO. You already had that line of communication with somebody who was moving up into the role.

[37:30] So, I think that speaks to Cummins's credit. I think it speaks to your credit and to your advantage, because you don't have to start from scratch and build that line.

[37:40] Deyna acknowledges, Yes, it's super important.

[37:44] Well, Dana, it has been such a pleasure to see you again, to record with you again here on RIMSCast. It's been almost five years, and we hope to see you at RISKWORLD.

[38:00] Thank you once again for rejoining us, and hopefully, the next time I see you, it won't be five years in between.

[38:06] Deyna says, Definitely. I love RIMS events, and all the conferences, the webinars, and even your podcast, so it's super good.

[38:17] Justin says, Thank you so much. You're a wonderful guest.

[38:20] Special thanks again to Deyna Feng for joining us here on RIMScast. Links to other RIMSCast episodes about captive insurance management are in this episode's show notes.

[38:34] I've also got links to RIMS Risk Management Magazine articles about captives, as well as other RIMS resources, so check it out and go to the Risk Knowledge page of RIMS.org.

[38:46] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[39:14] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[39:32] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[39:49] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[40:06] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[40:21] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[40:32] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS Risk Management Magazine: Year In Risk Edition | Feature Article

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | April‒June 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

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Spencer Educational Foundation Scholarships | Submission Deadline Jan. 31, 2026

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RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Series Featuring Joe Milan!

Cummins Inc.

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RIMS-CRMP Exam PrepMarch 10‒11 | April 21‒22, 2026, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

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"Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US" | Jan. 21‒22, 2026

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"Applying and Integrating ERM" | Feb 4.

"Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" | March 4‒5, 2026

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes about Captive Management:

"Broadcasting Captive Wisdom with James Swanke"

"Risk Management Momentum with Lockton U.S. President Tim Ryan"

"RIMS 2025 Risk Manager of the Year, Jennifer Pack"

"Asian Pacific American Heritage Month 2021" (featuring Deyna Feng)

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About our guest: Deyna Feng, Director of Captive Programs, Cummins

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this first episode of 2026, Justin interviews Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management Magazine. They discuss major cyber events of 2025, court rulings on AI fair use, and what risk professionals should take away about AI training data and intellectual property. They discuss regulations about forever chemicals or PFAS and what to look for in 2026 and beyond as these regulations change. They discuss the U.S. government shutdown of October and its residual effects.

Listen for a call for content submissions for RIMS Risk Management Magazine.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. This is our first episode of 2026. We're going to look forward and back, and who better to do that with than Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management Magazine?

[:44] We will discuss some of the top risk management stories of 2025 and what they might mean for 2026. There's so much to discuss, from forever chemicals to AI! But first…

[:55] RIMS-CRMP and Some Prep Courses. The next virtual prep course will be held on January 14th and 15th, 2026. These are virtual courses. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:12] RIMS Virtual Workshops are coming up. This is the last call for "Intro to ERM for Senior Leaders". It will be held on January 8th, led by Joe Mayo.

[1:24] On January 21st and 22nd, Chris Hansen returns to deliver the course, "Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US".

[1:35] On February 4th and 5th, Ken Baker will return to deliver the course, "Applying and Integrating ERM".

[1:45] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:57] RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[2:06] The RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:19] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from April 14th through June 23rd. Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:34] On with the show! The annual Year in Risk Review edition of RIMS Risk Management Magazine is now available. Visit RMMagazine.com for more information.

[2:47] We're going to pick up where we left off with Morgan O'Rouke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management Magazine and the RIMS Publication Department.

[2:54] Feel free to check out Episode 371 to get caught up as we discuss natural catastrophes and their impact on the landscape.

[3:04] In this episode, we're going to talk about AI, PFAS forever chemicals, and how you can contribute to RIMS Risk Management Magazine in 2026.

[3:14] Risk Management Magazine is an Azbee award winner, so you are hearing insights from the best in the business of risk management reporting. Let's get to it…

[3:24] Interview! Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle, welcome back to RIMScast!

[4:01] The Year in Risk 2025 Edition of RIMS Risk Management Magazine has been on digital shelves for a few weeks now. We're going to look a little bit forward and backward.

[4:34] Data Privacy Day comes up on January 20th every year. All eyes turn to cyber. At RIMS, all eyes turn to Hilary because she is the cyber guru. Hilary thinks every day of the year is Data Privacy Day.

[5:15] Hilary says, in the Year in Risk edition, they talked about 2025's Amazon Web Services outage, which took about 70,000 companies offline. It's a solid example of third-party risk and vendor security risks.

[5:31] The economic impact of the outage was estimated to be in the billions of dollars, in terms of lost business and business interruption. Hilary said the AWS outage lasted about 16 hours.

[5:53] It's a good reminder of vendor concentration risk in cloud services. The cloud services market has three major vendors; Amazon has about 30% of the market. If Amazon goes down, that's a significant number of clients who are at risk.

[6:10] Hilary says insurers are not at real risk for this outage. A lot of cyber coverage has provisions for outages with waiting periods of eight to 12 hours. Your insurer might come in for the end of that situation, but most of it is on the insured.

[6:38] For insurers and reinsurers, it was a pretty mild event. It's not going to cause huge changes in capacity or rates. It is a reminder that a lot of the risk is going to be on you, depending on the factors that are involved and the vendors that you pick.

[6:58] There was also the Marks & Spencer ransomware incident that impacted their stores and online services. They sell about four million Great British pounds a day of products online. Their website was down for three months because of the ransomware event and recovery process.

[7:29] Marks & Spencer had to go to pen and paper for in-store sales, and they operate hundreds of stores. It also caused inventory problems. It was a huge increase in waste because they didn't have ways of tracking or selling all of their inventory of food and other goods.

[7:45] The cost to Marks & Spencer was estimated to be about three hundred million Great British pounds.

[7:53] 2025 was a big year for cyber. Some other British retailers had some issues that have had retailers around the world taking note.

[8:04] Morgan was interested in the Jaguar Land Rover case. Since Morgan was a child, he wanted a Jaguar for the hood ornament. If they're taken offline, how is Morgan ever going to get himself a Jaguar?

[8:35] Hilary says, You and a lot of other customers, because they had to take all of their very automated production offline for a while. Parts and Sales were interrupted. They saw quarterly revenues drop around 24%, year-over-year, a difference of several hundred million pounds.

[8:58] Morgan says it becomes a little bit the same. It doesn't mean that it's not important. It's one of those things we encounter with perpetual risks, whether it's disasters or cyber.

[9:12] When they're always happening, they tend to get overlooked until some marquee event like an Amazon Web Services outage takes down a lot of people, or a company is taken offline for months and has to go back to pen and paper. That's not easy at large volumes.

[9:38] The underlying current of the risks you have to deal with still needs to be a part of your day-to-day mitigation exercises.

[9:59] Hilary says The more things change, the more things stay the same.

[10:18] Morgan says There is a broader perspective to everything. A risk is not just going to affect you; it's going to affect people down the line who are connected to your business. A cybersecurity event that happens over here is bound to have an impact on you, in some way.

[10:35] Hilary says concentration risk is an increasing issue, and dependency is an issue. We have allowed some of the market players to become so large that the impact, if anything happens to them, is astounding.

[10:50] There are advantages in having a large company as your vendor, but there's also a certain amount of instability in the lack of control you have in what's going on upstream. There's a lot that can happen downstream, to you.

[11:26] Hilarity may attend a Black Hat conference this year. From that, she may see what is coming several years down the pike.

[12:00] Justin says that AI is omnipresent. Regarding AI, in 2025, courts ruled on Fair Use. Multiple lawsuits were filed, and major settlements were reached. One lawsuit about scrubbing user data came from violating the Terms of Use, rather than copyright infringement.

[12:44] Morgan says companies that use AI or are creating an AI should be looking at the emerging liabilities and governance challenges of AI.

[12:55] There were a lot of cases. Two cases discussed in the Year in Risk 2025 were about Anthropic and Meta being sued by groups of authors. The courts ruled in both cases that if the AI made substantial changes to the material, they could use it under Fair Use.

[13:32] The cases weren't definitive that you have an open free-for-all. Anthropic was guilty of using pirated materials from the authors to train its AI. Anthopic settled by paying $1.5 billion to the authors. The ruling was that you can use material that you get legally, by paying for it.

[14:14] There are ways that the AI companies may be held accountable. There are 40 to 50 cases from every manner of media that may be adjudicated differently. It may come down to the sense of the case. There is some precedent set by one case.

[14:36] Morgan says, from a content creator perspective, it's heartening that copyright is protected. Hilary says it's disheartening that larger companies like Disney have more negotiating power in what they allow AI to use, but smaller companies may not have as much power.

[15:52] Morgan says the New York Times has licensed individual pieces for AI to use.

[16:06] If the company creating AI doesn't have an agreement with a content creator, in a lot of court cases, the settlement ends up being a licensing agreement to use the content.

[16:19] There's somewhat of an inevitability to the use of AI. You can't do anything about it, so you might as well get on board and get your piece. AI will take a little getting used to.

[16:56] Morgan says their future coverage of AI will be less about the promise of AI and more about how to use AI responsibly in your business. What are the risks of AI in your business?

[17:37] Everybody's doing it anyway, and risk depends on the level of fact-checking or information verification you are doing when you're putting together anything from an email to an RFP for a new vendor. You don't lose sight of the ball just because it's been around a few years.

[17:58] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[18:20] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[18:35] Let's Return to Our Interview with Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle!

[18:52] Justin brings up forever chemicals. They're in a lot of the things he drinks. The foods that he eats have consumed the same water. Executives in Italy were sentenced for not doing enough about them. In the U.S., the Trump administration started regulatory rollbacks.

[19:47] Justin mentions the RIMS webinars about forever chemicals, showing that if we don't work to curtail PFAS, they will have a lasting, harmful effect.

[20:21] Morgan says environmental liability for PFAS has been a topic of discussion for a few years.

[20:52] The discussions are around how PFAS will be regulated from a business standpoint, and what that means for my company. How do I need to report them? How do I need to mitigate it and clean up the systems I am responsible for?

[21:05] Morgan reports that in Italy, 11 executives were sentenced to a total of 141 years in prison for polluting the groundwater in an area of Italy. Studies showed that over time, there were thousands more cancers and cases of cardiovascular disease because of this pollution.

[21:35] Morgan says, That's the extreme side of it. It's what everyone wants to prevent. A lot of other countries and U.S. states are passing regulations banning or restricting PFAS. In 2025, in the U.S., some regulations were softened or paused.

[21:59] Hilary says there were various efforts to soften different regulations. Morgan explains that it was mainly for the costs to businesses. From the business standpoint, it's going to cost money to mitigate or report whatever the requirement is.

[22:14] Morgan says, It's not that restrictions were taken off the table, but it's concerning from a public health standpoint that they are slow-walking PFAS regulations. Morgan would like to think that just because a regulation is paused doesn't mean it won't be put into effect soon.

[22:56] Hilary says when she was in Calgary, in the fall, there was a session specifically on PFAS litigation, because Canada has also passed some measures on this. It's a solid reminder that other countries are starting to pick up on this regulation.

[23:17] In terms of compliance with what can or can't be used in product development, it's good to keep in mind some of these emerging regulations and the direction they are going. Remediation is definitely a component of it.

[23:33] In product development and new product releases, and product reformulations, it is often more expensive to figure out how to use substances that are not the PFAS that have been used for a long time, but that is the direction in which some businesses need to be looking.

[23:49] Morgan says, We did it with asbestos, years ago. PFAS started as a health concern, but it is a business concern. If you're responsible for injuring people, as we saw in Italy, you could go to jail. It doesn't mean that will happen in every country, but it doesn't mean it won't.

[24:19] Hilary thinks it will be interesting to see what moves the needle in different countries, as there are different business climates in different parts of the world. The United States is a lot more litigious than a lot of other cultures. Some of the regulations are being driven by lawsuits.

[24:30] Other places are focused more on compliance, where there's more of a sense of social good, like the Nordics, or parts of Western Europe, Hilary says, where some regulations coming from the government will be enough to move the needle.

[24:58] Multinational companies will need to be aware of the regulations in different countries and decide if they will make products for a specific country, restrict sales in that country, or reformulate their offerings.

[25:12] Morgan says the idea that there is an acceptable level of PFAS in the water is what bothers him the most. Hilary says there are risks more direct than water. You're cooking your food in PFAS. You have fire blankets to keep your children safe in the wake of wildfires.

[25:38] Things that you take for granted, that are serving a function, have the forever chemicals because they serve the function. Waterproof shoes, for example. You're relying on the benefit, but you're not necessarily thinking about the risks that you're introducing.

[25:54] Morgan says that it's all about the concentration of things. PFAS are in whatever you consume. At a certain point, it becomes harmful. Hilary says, You might buy one pair of waterproof shoes, but what if everyone does, and they all end up in landfills and cause runoff?

[26:39] It's a personal risk vs. a collective risk issue. It's a short-term risk vs. a long-tail risk issue. Hilary and Morgan discuss tapwater. Ignorance is bliss. It's a long-term risk.

[27:11] A Final Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's goal to help build a talent pipeline of risk management and insurance professionals is achieved, in part, by its collaboration with risk management and insurance educators across the U.S. and Canada.

[27:30] Spencer awards undergraduate, graduate, Ph.D., and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships to students enrolled at an accredited college or university in the U.S. and Canada, and physically studying in either location. No remote coursework eligibility from other locations.

[27:47] Including part-time, graduate scholarships to risk management and insurance professionals continuing their education.

[27:53] Since 1980, Spencer has invested more than $11.1 million in the scholarship program with awards to over 1,700 students. More than 85% of Spencer's scholarship recipients remain in the industry to this day.

[28:09] They've got undergraduate scholarships, full-time Master's scholarships, part-time Master's scholarships, pre-dissertation Ph.D. candidates, doctoral candidates, and pre-instructor of practice scholarships all open now. The application deadline is January 31st, 2026.

[28:30] Visit SpencerEd.org/scholarships. You'll find the different application buttons. See the link in this episode's show notes for more information.

[28:42] Let's Return to the Conclusion of Our Interview with Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle!

[28:59] RIMS Risk Management Magazine is looking for risk managers, business professionals, and legal professionals to contribute by way of articles and share their knowledge.

[29:21] Morgan says We're looking for articles talking not just about the risk, but about what a risk manager can do about the risk. The actionable part of the article describes the risk management. We're trying to help our risk manager readers do their jobs better.

[29:44] If you're looking to contribute something, share your knowledge. How did you deal with this risk that you are encountering? What are the steps that you recommend people take to mitigate that risk?

[29:58] That ends up being the most successful article. It accomplishes our mission most clearly.

[30:06] Hilary adds, if there is something that has come up at work that surprises you, as a seasoned risk professional, it may be new, emerging, or surprising to someone else.

[30:18] Sharing your expertise with your colleagues is something we are always looking to do, and we're happy to help you figure out how to do it.

[30:34] Justin says When we attend a RIMS event, we have a chance to mingle with our members and the attendees. People have come up to me and said they listen to the show, and they would love it if I would do an episode on "this."

[30:54] One that stood out to Justin is amusement park ride safety risk. He plans to do an episode on that in the summer.

[31:13] Hilary says, We love a novelty risk. They have done articles on water parks and ski resorts. Morgan says everybody's got a risk they're facing. Hilary wrote a blog post years ago about bouncy houses. Justin did an episode on hot air balloons.

[31:35] Morgan recalls doing an article on microbreweries, and a brewery sent them a six-pack. He'd like to do pizza risks next, maybe do a full spread!

[32:07] Justin says, We do want to give you a forum to share your knowledge, experience, and recommendations on how to mitigate a risk or tackle it head-on, or a new idea for a strategy on an emerging risk.

[32:25] Margan says some of those things may start as an article and later become a podcast episode. It's key to provide content that RIMS may be looking for, in general. It all starts with reaching out to Morgan or Hilary with an idea.

[32:44] Hilary says if you've put together a PowerPoint for a presentation, you probably have a pitch. Morgan says, You've basically got an article or a conversation started. If it's worthwhile to share with a conference audience, it's worthwhile to share with everybody.

[33:01] When Hilary meets a risk manager, her favorite questions to ask are What is the most unexpected risk that you've dealt with? What is the number one risk that you've dealt with? What did you not think that you'd be spending your days on?

[33:17] Hilary met a risk manager who worked for a group of public universities. He said the biggest unexpected problem that he deals with is kids riding motorized scooters on sidewalks or leaving them for people to trip over. Ebikes catch on fire. 100 kids a year get hurt from them.

[33:56] Hilary says, If you have a situation like that, if there's a risk that you never expected, if nothing else, we'd be really interested to hear about it.

[34:05] There are so many topics from 2025 to check out in the Q4 edition of RIMS Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com now.

[34:26] In October, the longest U.S. Government shutdown in history occurred. This led to a 10% cut in air traffic capacity and a lapse in the NFIP, which is one of RIMS's top legislative priorities. Once the government reopened, the NFIP was reauthorized until the end of January.

[35:06] The NFIP has been kicked down the road for a shorter period than anyone really wants. This was one of the few times it has been allowed to fully lapse. It leaves claims up in the air.

[35:46] Homeowners, buyers, and developers in high-risk areas can't get federally-backed mortgages without flood insurance. The lapse put a lot of property purchases in peril or on hold. Morgan says there wasn't a big run on claims in the last 40 days, but there could have been.

[36:28] Hilary points out that real estate developers couldn't sell homes in that period in areas where flood insurance is required. There are business impacts that are not storm-related.

[37:01] The shutdown had an enormous human toll with people losing jobs or being furloughed and going without money, not being able to pay rent, mortgage, or childcare. SNAP was cut for a significant period.

[37:30] Ernst & Young estimated the hit to the GDP as 1 to 1.5%, or a loss of $7 to $14 billion of economic output that would not be made back up after the government reopened. It was a disruption with long-term implications.

[37:57] Morgan says We're coming up on another fight as the reopening of the government only lasts until the end of January. If there is debate, as there always has been, we'll go through this process again. How long will that take? Have we learned from our mistake two months ago?

[38:22] Morgan says uncertainty is never good for the economy or for our mental well-being.

[38:31] Justin says, we're going to cap the conversation for now, and invites Morgan and Hilary back in about five months for the 2026 Mid-year Risk in Review.

[38:42] It's been such a pleasure to be rejoined by you here on RIMScast. Everyone can go to RMMagazine.com, and you're already hard at work on Q1 2026, right? Morgan says we put up new articles every week. There's always something new. The digital issues come up every quarter. Check your email inboxes for Editor's Picks, which we will send out once a month!

[38:22] Morgan says those are ways to check us out or be reminded that we're out there providing you with information that you can use.

[39:30] Morgan says, for RIMS members, there is the RIMS Now newsletter we send out to members quarterly with RIMS-centric news.

[39:52] Justin says, It's been a pleasure, and I look forward to seeing you both, hopefully at RISKWORLD in Philadelphia!

[40:13] Special thanks again to Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management Magazine and the RIMS Publications Department for joining us here on RIMScast. Remember to listen to Part 1 of this interview, via the link in this episode's show notes.

[40:19] Visit RMMagazine.com to check out the Year in Risk feature and the Q4 edition of RIMS Risk Management Magazine. This is reporting from the best in the profession. You can't get any better than RIMS Risk Management Magazine.

[40:37] Morgan and Hilary will return for the Mid-year in Risk episode of RIMScast, so subscribe to RIMScast today, don't miss it!

[40:44] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[41:11] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[41:29] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[41:46] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[42:01] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[42:15] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[42:27] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS Risk Management Magazine: Year In Risk Edition | Feature Article

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | April‒June 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management Magazine | Contribute

RIMS Now

Spencer Educational Foundation Scholarships | Submission Deadline Jan. 31, 2026

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Series Featuring Joe Milan!

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep

January 14‒15, 2026, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

"Intro to ERM for Senior Leaders" | Jan 8! — LAST CALL!

"Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US" | Jan. 21‒22, 2026

"Applying and Integrating ERM" | Feb 4‒5

"Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" | March 4‒5, 2026

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"Year In Risk 2025 with Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle"

"Mid-Year Update 2025: RIMS Legislative and Risk Management News"

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"The Evolving Role of the Risk Analyst"

"Presilience and Cognitive Biases with Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams"

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

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"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

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About our guests: Morgan O'Rourke, RIMS Director of Publications and Risk Management Magazine Editor in Chief Hilary Tuttle, Managing Editor, Risk Management Magazine

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this last episode of 2025, Justin interviews Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management magazine on the most impactful risks of 2025 and what's expected in 2026. They discuss the difficulty of reporting on the rapid pace of risk change. Morgan and Hilary discuss the most impactful natural events of 2025: wildfires in California and Canada, Hurricane Melissa, and flooding. They discuss the economic risks posed by the unusual tariff changes in 2025 and how supply chains and inflation are affected. These risks are covered in the Q4 edition of RIMS Risk Management magazine online now.

Morgan and Hilary will return for the first episode of 2026, launching on January 5th.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. This is our final episode of 2025, and who better to spend it with than Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management magazine?

[:44] We will discuss some of the top risk management stories of 2025 and what they might mean for 2026. They will rejoin us for the first episode of 2026! But first…

[:55] RIMS-CRMP and Some Prep Courses. The next virtual prep course will be held on January 14th and 15th, 2026. These are virtual courses. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:12] RIMS Virtual Workshops are coming up. On January 21st and 22nd, Chris Hansen returns to deliver the course, "Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US".

[1:26] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:38] RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:48] The RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:01] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from January through March of 2026. Registration closes on January 5th. Or Spring ahead and register for the cohort that will be held from April through June, 2026. Registration closes on April 6th.

[2:20] Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:27] On with the show! The annual Year in Risk Review edition of RIMS Risk Management magazine is now available. Visit RMmagazine.com for more information.

[2:39] I wanted to dive deeper into some of the pages and the stories that made major headlines in risk management this year. Morgan and Hilary are rejoining us as part of our annual tradition.

[2:54] We're not just looking back; we're also going to talk about how these events should be some warning signs and provide some extra insight for risk managers around the world.

[3:05] Interview! This is our final episode of the year, and we're going out with a bang with two of my favorite people!

[3:12] Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle, welcome back to RIMScast!

[3:23] Justin saw Morgan and Hilary, just a month ago in Seattle, at the ERM Conference. Morgan says it was raining the whole time, but it was a good conference. It was well-attended, and everybody enjoyed themselves, and the attendees got a lot out of it. It was a great event!

[3:51] Hilary also thought it was great! The turnout was fantastic! There was some great feedback on a lot of the sessions. There were some packed rooms! People seemed pleased with the programming. Hilary didn't see the sun until she left, but she enjoyed the city!

[5:12] Morgan and Hilary's goal for attending the ERM Conference is to gather good ideas for articles. They look for presenters who might be good content contributors in other formats. They look to get a sense of what is new and what is emerging.

[5:24] Morgan and Hilary talk to members about what they're seeing in practice and what's concerning to them. Morgan says if there's a packed room for a session, it's clearly a topic that's resonating, which bumps it to the top of the list of things to pursue, since there's interest in it.

[6:17] Justin notes that Morgan's always there in the sessions with pen and paper. He's old school!

[7:36] Morgan says the hardest part of reporting on risk is the breadth of the risks they cover. Everything has a lot more nuance and a lot more effect. This incident happened, which had 57 knock-on effects.

[7:47] Morgan explains why distilling that down to something that makes sense in article form is a huge challenge and compares writing about risk to the experience risk managers have with everything they deal with.

[8:10] Morgan says that, at the end of the year, spotlighting the year in risk coverage is a challenge. How do you get the entire economic, geopolitical situation down to 200 words?

[8:37] Hilary says the velocity of change is a challenge when covering risk. Unlike in everyday news coverage, they have to add an amount of value or takeaways for a reader who is looking to do something about risk. Developing that value, at the speed of risk, is particularly challenging.

[9:15] Hilary continues. Crises are compounded now. You can't ignore a lot of those factors that make a crisis a bad issue. Hilary cites hurricanes, rapid intensification, which is a knock-on effect of climate change, lax building codes, and people building more in certain regions.

[9:38] Hilary says you have to add so many layers to explain why this crisis is happening now. It becomes a lot more challenging to figure out how it impacts insurance. You have to take into account different exclusions or the way the policies are created. There are a lot of moving parts.

[10:04] Morgan says, It's not just your picture. It's the picture of your suppliers and your customers, who might be across the country or around the world. All of their risks become your risks or, at least, will impact your business.

[10:33] Justin compliments the digital layout of RIMS Risk Manager magazine. He speaks of how Morgan and Hilary go to RIMS events looking for inspiration for content and content contributors.

[11:05] Morgan says, We're only as good as the information we've learned through the people we've met, or what we've read. We're not practicing risk managers. Hearing from experts who deal with it every day is the strongest way to get good content that resonates with our readers.

[12:17] Morgan says wildfires were probably the most costly insured loss of 2025. Hilary says that earthquakes were the most costly in terms of the loss of life. The LA fire was the largest single economic loss. There are lots of expensive homes in Southern California.

[13:26] Canada has had wildfires raging almost non-stop for two or three years. Wildfires are no longer secondary perils. They're a prime source of loss. Severe convective storms, in the aggregate, probably caused more damage than wildfires this year.

[14:04] Hilary says severe convective storms have been in the top 10 for seven out of the last 10 years. Morgan says this was one of the top convective storm years. In natural disasters, you're not looking just at hurricanes and earthquakes, but also fires, floods, and more.

[14:32] Hilary talks about secondary factors, like tremendous wind events in California, increasing the rate at which fires spread, making containment difficult. Things were moving fast. A lot of buildings were burning. It took three weeks to put out two of the largest fires.

[15:05] Canada faced different challenges. All but two provinces had record, above-average fire seasons. Some fires impacted remote areas where getting people out is logistically extremely difficult. Seventy-something First Nations communities had to be evacuated.

[15:35] If you're dealing with areas that are largely only accessible by air, getting communities of people out for long periods is logistically very challenging, with a devastating human impact. They're very different fires.

[15:52] Hilary says it was quite a year. Morgan ties it back to the impact of climate change. It starts with drought, and it's exacerbated by winds. Then you've got these weird things that pop up where Mother Nature says, Hey, I've got a weird twist for you!

[16:13] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[16:35] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[16:50] Let's Return to Our Interview with Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle!

[17:11] Some of the fires Canada experienced this year were zombie fires, also called holdover fires, or overwintering fires. They can live in the soil under the snow until it gets warm, the snow melts, and they reignite. Some of the fires of 2025 were started in 2023.

[16:23] Hilary believes those holdover fires were in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Northwest Territories, and up North. Holdover fires are most common in the Arctic Circle.

[18:43] Morgan and Hilary believe that's a good example of things that will happen more frequently with climate change, affecting a larger number of people than before.

[19:15] Morgan says convective storms are tornadoes and thunderstorms. Hilary adds that it has to do with the pressure front that leads to forming them. Outbreaks of many tornadoes in a couple of days wreak havoc in the U.S. Midwest.

[20:06] Morgan says the highest intensity of a tornado is EF5. There was an EF5 tornado in North Dakota for the first time in 10 years. It touched down in a place where there were not a lot of people.

[20:35] Hilary says we're seeing increasingly severe convective storms and inland flooding losses. Severe storms are flooding areas that weren't thought of as being at risk of flooding.

[20:50] The more we build into these plains with high-value properties, the more damaging convective storms are getting. The storms are also getting worse. We're also seeing increasingly damaging hail. That's a severe convective storm issue, as well.

[21:27] Morgan says climate change makes things more intense and widespread. Morgan says his favorite climate change after-effect was the attack of the jellyfish this year.

[21:57] There were multiple instances of French nuclear power plants being taken offline by giant swarms of jellyfish clogging the coolant intake lines. Europe had a super-hot summer. Water temperatures rose, which increased jellyfish activity and presence.

[22:26] There were so many jellyfish, they ended up in places they shouldn't be. France generates 70% of its electricity through nuclear power. If nuclear power plants are taken offline, it's not just a minor annoyance.

[22:51] If you're a company during a blackout, you don't care that it was jellyfish. You're still not in business for the time that you don't have power. Suddenly, this climate change effect is now a part of a disaster preparedness plan because of climate change. You have to plan for jellyfish.

[24:43] Hurricane Melissa was another storm with widespread flooding and enormous insured losses. Morgan notes that 2025 was a relatively low-activity season from the standpoint of how many hurricanes made landfall.

[25:18] Melissa was the most damaging and probably accounted for 90% of economic losses and loss of life. It did billions of dollars' worth of damage.

[25:33] There were three Category 5 Hurricanes this year; four is the record, but they mostly went out into the ocean; they didn't do anything. That doesn't mean it's always going to happen. If one storm hits the right place, you're in trouble.

[26:07] It was an active storm season for Jamaica. It only takes one storm in your area to be an active season for you.

[26:25] Hilary says Melissa is a textbook case of some of the perils of rapid intensification. It got much worse very quickly. The fact that we've seen such a proportion of Category 5 storms is a pattern that is concerning.

[26:57] They discussed rapid intensification in the hurricane outlook for the season. Hurricane Erin also occurred this year. It intensified quickly, but it didn't cause a lot of damage. Your lead time is less when a storm intensifies quickly.

[27:32] Morgan says it's important to get things in order before storms hit because you may not have the time to do it when it's mid-season. You don't know where or when a storm will hit.

[27:50] Wikipedia calls Melissa the costliest storm in Jamaican history, at $10 billion in damage, 102 fatalities, 141 injuries, and 27 missing.

[28:38] A Final Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's goal to help build a talent pipeline of risk management and insurance professionals is achieved, in part, by its collaboration with risk management and insurance educators across the U.S. and Canada.

[28:57] Spencer awards undergraduate, graduate, Ph.D., and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships to students enrolled at an accredited college or university in the U.S. and Canada, and physically studying in either location. No remote coursework eligibility from other locations.

[29:14] Including part-time, graduate scholarships to risk management and insurance professionals continuing their education.

[29:20] Since 1980, Spencer has invested more than $11.1 million in the scholarship program with awards to over 1,700 students. More than 85% of Spencer's scholarship recipients remain in the industry to this day.

[29:35] They've got undergraduate scholarships, full-time Master's scholarships, part-time Master's scholarships, pre-dissertation Ph.D. candidates, doctoral candidates, and pre-instructor of practice scholarships all open now. The application deadline is January 31st, 2026.

[29:57] Visit SpencerEd.org/scholarships. You'll find the different application buttons. See the link in this episode's show notes for more information, giving you some extra homework to do over the holiday break, if you are taking a holiday break!

[30:14] Let's Return to the Conclusion of Our Interview with Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle!

[30:46] Justin mentions that tariffs in 2025 affect 90% of U.S. imports. That's a supply chain management issue and an ERM issue. Tariffs themselves are an issue.

[31:16] What Morgan connects most to tariffs is the uncertainty they create, especially in the way they've been implemented this year. Tariffs are promised, then the terms are changed, creating uncertainty. What level of costs will businesses absorb or pass on to customers?

[31:50] Morgan says those things make the business landscape unstable. Tariffs in April would be better than 57 different announcements that change the picture every other week and tend to tank the stock market.

[32:20] Morgan says Goldman Sachs estimated in September that 55% of the incurred costs have been passed to consumers, depending on the business. Once it impacts your customers, you've got less revenue coming in. It's an unstable environment.

[32:47] Hilary contrasts this year's tariffs with past tariffs. Usually, it's a "set it and forget it" situation. Hilary calls this year's tariffs erratic and confusing. The scale and the frequency of change are unprecedented.

[33:31] Morgan says you can feel it when you go to the store. That's not helping from a personal standpoint or a business standpoint. Justin speaks of shrinkflation.

[33:47] Tariffs are going to affect inflation. Nobody wants that.

[34:22] Hilary speaks of alternate supply chains that are in more friendly tariff environments. Some of the items in your products are going to be different. Some of your processes will be different. You don't know if you're also going to be getting inferior products.

[34:52] Morgan says it's not as simple as saying just get a new supplier. That's an operational shift from procurement, on. Hilary says, hopefully, you won't have to do product safety testing or environmental impact studies, or reporting around your supply chain.

[35:09] Morgan notes that some raw materials may only be available in five countries, like a rare earth mineral.

[35:32] Justin asks if this is explored in depth in the Q4 edition of RIMS Risk Management magazine. Hilary says we are not talking about rare earth minerals in that issue. Morgan is working on figuring out how we can cover that, perhaps, in 2026.

[35:53] Morgan is fascinated by this topic. There are limited deposits of things. The broader point is that if you're affected by tariffs and you're trying to change suppliers or sources, you may not have all the options.

[36:12] Hilary says it is a situation where the risk is very much there, but the management or mitigation of it is not necessarily something you can do much about. Only so many places make cobalt. Morgan adds, There are only so many mines out there.

[36:31] Justin says, The Q4 edition of RIMS Risk Management magazine is out now. This is the last episode of 2025. We're going to have you back to discuss a little bit more in the first episode of 2026.

[37:01] Morgan's parting words: "I'm just glad you're listening. I'm glad you're listening. I'm glad you're reading. I'm glad you're here. I feel like it's a privilege to keep writing for you, talking to you, so hopefully, we continue to do that in the new year. Everybody, be safe and happy."

[37:14] Hilary's parting words: "Thanks for making it through another year!"

[37:18] So, we're going to have you back in January, and we'll pick up there, probably with some cyber and some Data Privacy Day kick-off, January 5th, 2026.

[37:35] Special thanks again to Morgan O'Rourke and Hilary Tuttle of RIMS Risk Management magazine and the RIMS Publications Department for joining us on RIMScast. They will rejoin us for the first episode of 2026. That will launch on January 5th.

[37:52] Mark your calendar and subscribe to RIMScast through your podcasting app of choice! Visit RMmagazine.com to check out The Year in Risk edition of Risk Management magazine. That's the Q4 edition. This is reporting from the best in the profession.

[38:12] You can't get any better than RIMS Risk Management magazine.

[38:17] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[38:44] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[39:01] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[39:18] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[39:34] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[39:47] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[39:59] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS Risk Management Magazine: Year In Risk Edition | Feature Article

Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making | Virtual Workshop | March 4‒5, 2026

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS Now

Spencer Educational Foundation Scholarships | Submission Deadline Jan. 31, 2026

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Series Featuring Joe Milan!

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep | January 14‒15, 2026, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

"Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US" | Jan. 21‒22, 2026

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"Mid-Year Update 2025: RIMS Legislative and Risk Management News"

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"The Evolving Role of the Risk Analyst"

"Presilience and Cognitive Biases with Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams"

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL (New!)

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

Want to Learn More?

Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Have a question or suggestion? Email: [email protected].

Join the Conversation!

Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

About our guests: Morgan O'Rourke, RIMS Director of Publications and Risk Management Magazine Editor in Chief Hilary Tuttle, Managing Editor, Risk Management Magazine

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Joseph A. Milan, Ph.D., about the core philosophy or mindset for risk managers, the definition of acceptable risk, and how acceptable risk changes, depending on the organization's culture, strategy, or industry. Joseph shares his view on common mistakes and how biases can lead to gut decisions that are the least effective solutions. Justin and Joseph discuss Joseph's upcoming two-day virtual seminar, "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making", on March 4th and 5th, and how participants should prepare for it. Finally, Joseph shares closing thoughts for those in one-person risk departments.

Listen for thoughts on how to keep the gut reaction out of decision-making.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest is Joseph Milan, Ph.D. You know him from the RIMS CRMP Insights Series.

[:40] As one of our virtual instructors, he's here to discuss his own risk philosophies ahead of the RIMS Virtual Workshop on March 4th and 5th. He'll be leading "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making". But first…

[:54] RIMS-CRMP and Some Exam Prep Courses. The next virtual prep course will be held on January 14th and 15th, 2026. These are virtual courses. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:12] RIMS Virtual Workshops are coming up. On January 21st and 22nd, Chris Hansen returns to deliver the course, "Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US".

[1:26] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:38] RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:48] The RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:00] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from January to March of 2026. Registration closes on January 5th. Or Spring ahead and register for the cohort that will be held from April to June, 2026. Registration closes on April 6th.

[2:20] Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:25] On with the show! Today, we will discuss facilitating risk-based decision-making with our friend Joseph Milan, Ph.D. He is the Principal at J.A. Milan & Associates and is also an Adjunct Professor at the University of Colorado.

[2:43] He is a RIMS CRMP Commissioner. You get a lot of his insights from the RIMS CRMP Insights Series. A link is in this episode's show notes. In this dialog, we will get a preview of his upcoming workshop, "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making", on March 4th and 5th.

[3:02] But we're really going to get into Joe's risk philosophies, which are the sorts of things the RIMScast audience can use as they develop their careers and as they move into higher positions, ascend the corporate ladder, or become a department of one.

[3:20] Interview! I've known him for years, and I'm so glad to finally be saying…

[3:22] Joseph Milan, welcome to RIMScast!

[3:41] Justin notes that he and Joseph have recorded so many things through the years, but not RIMScast. Joseph says it's great to be back with Justin, and on this medium, and he looks forward to sharing more information with Justin and all the RIMS members.

[4:21] Joseph shares his RIMS history. It started in the olden times of 2005 when he got involved in a committee Carol Fox set up, called at the time the ERM Development Committee, now known as the RIMS Strategic and Enterprise Risk Management Council.

[4:46] Then Joseph started helping with curriculum development and in-person professional development, before COVID.

[4:58] After COVID, Joseph has been involved not only in delivering seminars but, as a commission member for the RIMS-CRMP, helped develop that curriculum and governance structure. Joseph has been involved with RIMS in different ways over the years.

[5:12] There's a good chance that someone listening to this podcast will think, Hey, I know that guy! I recognize that voice!

[5:26] Joseph is an Adjunct Professor at the University of Colorado, Denver. He's been active in the Risk Consulting Space since 2008, doing projects that range from simple commercial insurance placements to complex ERM implementations. He brings a unique perspective.

[6:02] Joseph teaches at the University of Colorado Business School. He helped develop a course on Enterprise Risk Management. ERM is truly becoming a mature discipline. Joseph thinks RIMS is establishing a global presence for ERM. Justin credits Joseph, in part, for that.

[7:05] When Justin saw that Joseph was going to host a two-day workshop, March 5th and 6th, "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making", he said, Let's get Joe on the show and end 2025 with a great interview with him.

[7:38] Joseph says the course is, in many ways, the pinnacle of risk management as a discipline. If we think about the domains and components of the RIMS-CRMP, the fifth domain within the CRMP is about supporting risk-based decision-making.

[8:06] This is a two-day seminar that takes a deep dive into that space. Joseph says it's the most fun, advanced, and interactive. It's the task that requires the best blend between the technical and the so-called soft skills. It's really exciting. Joseph is looking forward to it.

[8:28] Joseph hopes a lot of the audience listening to this podcast will take enough of an interest to spend the 14 or 15 hours — it seems like a lot, but it goes fast! There are breaks.

[8:52] When Joseph leads a course, he takes questions live. His approach is dynamic and flexible in terms of making sure that people get what they expect from the seminar.

[9:05] Joseph says crunching numbers is super important. The assumption for this seminar is that these are advanced practitioners who can do number crunching or hire somebody to do it. The number crunching is important because it sets the foundation for control limits.

[9:23] Number crunching sets the foundation for being able to answer questions about risk philosophy.

[9:34] Core philosophy is risk philosophy. Risk philosophy comes from definitions of risk appetite and risk tolerance, and being able to operationalize those definitions in simple statements, in plain language, tied to the control limits that come from the number crunching.

[10:00] With a good amount of work, within any organization, a risk professional and a team of people dedicated to risk and ERM should be able to put those definitions into action.

[10:31] In the context of an advanced risk management or ERM seminar, when we talk about risk, it's always also about opportunity.

[10:46] The simplest definition of acceptable risk is that which fits within the risk philosophy of the organization, within risk appetite and risk tolerance, and supports the organization in terms of its pursuit of objectives.

[11:04] It's almost always about higher profitability, more money in for-profit companies. Non-profit companies describe it differently. Maybe it's focusing on providing more service, which is a proxy for getting more money.

[11:19] It's about remaining a going concern and achieving goals. That's the simple definition: fitting within risk appetite and risk tolerance.

[11:52] Joseph says it's constantly about finding balance. It's not just about the most influential senior leader, the risk leader, or the ERM leader.

[12:05] It's also about the risk owners within the organization and how they fit into the strategic direction of the organization: growth vs. stability. Maybe it's an organization in distress and is focusing on retrenchment and building up a balance sheet to be able to redirect itself.

[12:27] It's in that space that a lot of times, there is an unintentional lack of organizational risk competency. That can contribute to not just conflict, but also misunderstandings about what's acceptable, in terms of taking on risk in pursuit of objectives.

[12:49] Communication is something we focus on in the seminar "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" quite a bit.

[12:58] It is in the soft space of actively listening and identifying triggers in terms of perception of risk that have a huge impact on the decisions that an organization takes in risk and opportunity. It is challenging and time-consuming, but done correctly, it's super worthwhile!

[13:27] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[13:49] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[14:04] Let's Return to Our Interview with Joseph Milan!

[14:14] Joseph Milan will be hosting a workshop, "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making", on March 4th and 5th. Registration closes March 3rd. Justin says there is nobody better than Joseph to host this RIMS workshop. Joseph has a wide range of experience.

[15:14] A risk practitioner may focus more on the traditional space, insurance. Joseph says ERM will not supersede traditional risk management.

[16:06] A common mistake is that risk practitioners tend to get distracted by what they think are big numbers, but which pale in comparison to the big picture on the balance sheet.

[16:36] A good solution to that mistake is to find influential people in the organization who are plugged into financial planning, analysis, and budgeting, with a long connection to the organization, to help put things in perspective and answer questions about acceptable risk.

[17:09] Does it fit within the organization's risk appetite and tolerance? Answering those questions quantitatively can be fairly easy in terms of doing analysis and providing conclusions about expected total losses, frequency, and severity.

[17:33] The more important question is, is that acceptable, and does it fit within what executive leadership expects in terms of the stability of the financial performance of the company?

[17:44] The mistake is in overemphasizing or overestimating the importance of certain quantitative components of a risk program that oftentimes might not be that important. Conversely, there might be something much less visible that needs more attention.

[18:12] You have to know your audience, and you need to know what their emotions are, what motivates them, and what might trigger them. It's a bad idea to follow your gut, but it happens all the time. One of the main reasons it happens is because of emotion.

[18:44] If you see weird, irrational things happening, often, it ties back to a personal experience that the President, CEO, or CFO had many years ago. You might have an operator who went through Hurricane Katrina and is super sensitive to that type of hazard risk.

[19:11] Justin shares the impact Hurricane Sandy had on his home and on his parents' home, which was destroyed. The flooding gutted the area. Looking back, Justin will always have NatCat insurance. Justin is still traumatized by it.

[19:53] Joseph emphasizes communication and knowing your audience. An organization may want to do ERM or take its insurance program to the next level. Some spaces trigger reactions and emotions.

[20:31] It takes time to figure out an unwritten organizational culture.

[21:18] Strategy impacts the perception of risk, what's acceptable in terms of risk, and what the upper and lower control limits are. Where does strategy come from? Joseph says strategy comes from vision, mission, and execution.

[21:42] Strategy comes from various places. It could be external market forces. It could be the result of a merger or an acquisition, or a series of mergers and acquisitions. The executive leadership team may have to look around and ask themselves, Who are we? What are we doing?

[22:08] The first company that hired Justin, in 20 years, has been acquired twice, and people who had been lifers are being shown the door.

[22:46] Joseph says, In M&A, there is a huge impact on morale. Without a clear communication plan, backed up by action, things can get inefficient and expensive very quickly.

[23:17] A Final Break! The Spencer Educational Foundation's goal to help build a talent pipeline of risk management and insurance professionals is achieved, in part, by its collaboration with risk management and insurance educators across the U.S. and Canada.

[23:36] Spencer awards undergraduate, graduate, Ph.D., and Pre-Instructor of Practice Scholarships to students enrolled at an accredited college or university in the U.S. and Canada, and physically studying in either location. No remote coursework eligibility from other locations.

[23:53] Including part-time, graduate scholarships to risk management and insurance professionals continuing their education.

[23:58] Since 1980, Spencer has invested more than $11.1 million in the scholarship program with awards to over 1,700 students. More than 85% of Spencer's scholarship recipients remain in the industry to this day.

[24:15] They've got undergraduate scholarships, full-time Master's scholarships, part-time Master's scholarships, pre-dissertation Ph.D. candidates, doctoral candidates, and pre-instructor of practice scholarships all open now. The application deadline is January 31st, 2026.

[24:36] Visit SpencerEd.org/scholarships. You'll find the different application buttons. See the link in this episode's show notes for more information, giving you some extra homework to do over the holiday break, if you are taking a holiday break!.

[24:53] Let's Return to the Conclusion of My Interview with Joseph Milan!

[25:01] Justin had Jim Swanke as a guest on International Podcast Day, from the University of Wisconsin, Madison's Wisconsin School of Business. He mentioned he has a real passion for being an educator for risk management students.

[25:25] Jim Swanke encourages students to lean into technology and AI as a proofreader and a time-saving tool, to help go through contracts, claims, and things like that. That was on the captive insurance side.

[25:50] Justin asks Joseph for his take on AI. Joseph encourages students to go all in on it. It's the future. It is not going away.

[26:04] Joseph's clients are asking him about AI because they're looking for opportunities to increase efficiency. Is there a way we can reduce the time it takes to do "fill in the blank"?

[26:17] When you look at the top risk management information systems, the first and second place, Origami and Riskonnect, are spending a lot of time and money looking for any opportunity to leverage AI to make the broader risk management process more efficient.

[26:42] Joseph gives the example of analytics. It takes a couple of seconds to do a multiple linear regression analysis. The hard part is collecting the data to support the analysis. If you can leverage AI to collect, clean, and organize data, that is something you should do, with caution.

[27:09] We know that large language models tend to occasionally hallucinate. To have a non-sentient black box to have a hallucination as it's cleaning your data for analysis is a little bit of a scary thing. Fortunately, we humans are still around to check these machines.

[27:33] Joseph says the shortest answer is that AI is not going away. It needs to be embraced carefully. The process fundamentals that we have been thinking about, doing, and teaching about for years are the same. They will not change.

[28:03] Joseph will be leading the "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" virtual workshop for RIMS on March 4th and 5th. It's a two-day course with six or more hours each day.

[28:32] Joseph says it's a seminar that focuses on the advanced implementation of risk solutions. We will not be doing calculations, analytics, or analysis.

[28:50] We're assuming that everyone is showing up with a deep and broad understanding of not only definitions of potential risk and opportunity, but also a solid foundation in the analytical space.

[29:02] This is more about thinking about how bias influences individual, group, and social perceptions and recommendations, in terms of risk.

[29:17] Participants should bring an open mind and an understanding of the importance of soft skills in the space of supporting risk-based decisions.

[29:31] Some of the listeners may already have read this book, but Joseph recommends it again, Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman. It is the foundation for the seminar.

[29:43] Joseph says, the book takes a deep dive into the "caveman" forces that influence intuitive, gut-reaction decisions, and how gut reactions can be a very unhelpful approach for the systematic, slower decisions that need to be made regarding complex risk.

[30:09] Joseph recommends reading the book. He says it will provide you with a much better foundation for the seminar, and it's a book you will keep going back to throughout your career.

[30:23] Justin says, It's been such a pleasure to see you again. I've got links to the RIMS-CRMP Insights Series that you did for us. There is plenty of Joseph Milan content here on RIMS.org.

[30:50] Joseph's last words for listeners: The first message is to be committed to the hard work that goes into cleaning, organizing, and setting the stage. It's part of being a good risk manager.

[31:52] Beyond that, a lot of what we talk about in the ERM space has to do with leveraging existing resources and breaking down silos. Find influential, knowledgeable people in your organization who can help with different cultural components and a lot of the tactical things.

[32:14] They might be able to help you find shortcuts as you take on different implementations and initiatives within the risk space within your company.

[32:30] Justin says, I look forward to seeing you again, in 2026, virtually, and/or in person. Thank you so much for all your time and for being so generous with your knowledge.

[32:46] Special thanks again to Joseph Milan for joining us here on RIMScast. His virtual workshop is "Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making". Enrollment closes on March 3rd for the two-day course, which will be held on March 4th and 5th. A link is in this episode's show notes.

[33:07] Joseph will also lead the Pre-RISKWORLD two-day workshop, "Captives as an Alternate Risk Financing Technique," on-site in Philadelphia on May 2nd and 3rd, 2026. We will provide a registration link when it's available. Mark your calendar and learn from one of the best!

[33:28] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[33:56] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[34:13] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[34:30] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[34:46] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[35:00] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[35:11] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

"Facilitating Risk-Based Decision Making" | Virtual Workshop | March 4‒5, 2026

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP) | Insights Series Featuring Joe Milan!

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS Now

Spencer Educational Foundation Scholarships | Submission Deadline Jan. 31, 2026

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy | RIMS Legislative Summit SAVE THE DATE — March 18‒19, 2026

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP Exam PrepJanuary 14‒15, 2026, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual

Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

"Managing Worker Compensation, Employer's Liability and Employment Practices in the US" | Jan. 21‒22, 2026

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"The Evolving Role of the Risk Analyst"

"Presilience and Cognitive Biases with Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams"

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL (New!)

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

Want to Learn More?

Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Have a question or suggestion? Email: [email protected].

Join the Conversation!

Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

About our guest: Joseph A. Milan, Ph.D.

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Andréia Stephenson, BSc SIRM, Enterprise Risk Analyst at London Metal Exchange, about her shift from a Bachelor of Science in biology to a risk analyst and risk professional. Andréia speaks of her passion for data and the importance of communicating at all levels of your organization. She regards working for different organizations with good leaders as a way to learn risk frameworks and gain foundational knowledge. She shares views on how risk analysts can influence risk culture. She also tells how she uses AI as an assistant.

Listen for thoughts on building a risk-aware culture by asking leaders the right questions.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest today is Andréia Stephenson, BSc SIRM, Enterprise Risk Analyst at London Metal Exchange. She will discuss her career and the evolving role of the Risk Analyst. But first…

[:43] RIMS-CRMP and Some Exam Prep Courses. From December 15 through the 18th, CBCP and RIMS will present the RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep Boot Camp.

[:53] Another virtual course will be held on January 14th and 15th, 2026. These are virtual courses. Links to these courses can be found through the Certification page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:07] During the interview with Andréia, you will hear her reference the RIMS CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management, which is hosted by the famous James Lam. Andréia is an alum of the program.

[1:23] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks, from January through March of 2026. Registration closes on January 5th. Or Spring ahead and register for the cohort held from April through June of 2026. Registration closes on April 6th.

[1:39] Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[1:46] Justin shares that RIMS suffered a tremendous loss in December. Chief Membership Experience Officer, Leslie Whittet, with RIMS for almost three years, tragically passed away due to injuries she sustained in an accident. She was walking her dog when she was struck by a truck.

[2:18] Some of the RIMS staff, including CEO Gary LaBranche, knew Leslie from years prior. We are all shocked and saddened. Leslie was a remarkable association leader with 30 years of experience.

[2:33] Gary LaBranche had the privilege of working alongside Leslie Whittet at the Association for Corporate Growth for nine years. For the last three years, Justin has had the pleasure of working with her at various RIMS events and seeing her weekly on our remote calls.

[2:50] Leslie was always a source of positivity, inspiration, and creativity. She was just a wonderful person who will be deeply missed. Her memory is certainly a blessing.

[3:03] RIMS will celebrate her memory at the Chapter Leadership Forum in Orlando in January. If you have any questions, please contact Josh Salter, [email protected]. Tributes are pouring in on LinkedIn and various networking groups.

[3:22] If you have memories and photos you'd like to share, we encourage you to do so to honor her memory.

[3:29] It wasn't easy to speak these words or read them, so I want to take a brief moment of silence to honor Leslie before we go any further.

[3:44] On with the show! Our guest today is Andréia Stephenson. She comes to us all the way from London, where she's an Enterprise Risk Analyst for the London Metal Exchange.

[3:57] You may know her a little bit from some promotional videos we've done on social media, promoting the James Lam CRO Certificate Course. In getting to know her, I was struck by how enthusiastic she was about her role as a Risk Analyst for years.

[4:14] Many risk professionals begin as risk analysts; others, like Andréia, can make a thriving career of it. She's here to share some tips on how to do that, where ERM fits into the mix, and where she believes the role of the risk analyst will be going in the near future. Let's get started…

[4:36] Interview! Andréia Stephenson, welcome to RIMScast!

[4:47] Andréia may sound familiar to you because she did a testimonial on LinkedIn for RIMS for the James Lam CRO Certificate course. Justin says she was great to work with. That's how she and Justin met, and that's why she's here.

[5:19] Justin notes that his voice is lower from "shouting" during the ERM Conference. Andréia looks forward to the RIMS ERM Conference 2026.

[6:09] Andréia shares an overview of her career. She started at O.R.X., an operational risk data exchange association, where she learned all the principles of risk management. It gave her a strong background in operational risk.

[6:36] From there, she went to London to go into a second-line risk management function as an analyst at a wealth management investment firm, then she went to a small investment bank, then to another wealth management firm, and now, to the London Metal Exchange.

[7:00] They were all analyst roles, primarily operational risk, but also enterprise risk management. Risk has been part of her life for the last 10 years. The foundation was set by O.R.X. She holds the company close to her heart.

[7:28] Andréia loves data. It's incredibly important for driving analysis. She says any analyst who doesn't love data is not an analyst! Data structure and data quality are very important for risk analysis, or any analysis. You need to love data to be able to do good risk management.

[8:13] Andréia says that working in different organizations is important for risk management. It helps you connect the dots between the components of a risk management framework.

[8:28] When Andréia started at O.R.X., she understood all the components, but she didn't join the dots until she went into the industry, hands-on, in the deep end, trying to figure out an RCSA, a KRI, or a KPI. Then, all the components of risk management started to make a bit more sense.

[8:53] Andréia has always been fortunate to have worked with several exceptional leaders, each of whom had a kind of superpower in risk management that influenced her approach and understanding of risk.

[9:07] Andréia's first manager at O.R.X. was tough and meticulous. She had a deep understanding of corporate governance and the boundaries between the risk types: strategic, financial, and non-financial.

[9:22] At the time, Andréia didn't really appreciate how valuable the discipline was. She didn't understand yet. In hindsight, it gave her a strong foundation. Another CRO she worked with taught her the importance of communication in risk.

[9:46] Aside from his technical ability, he understood stakeholder management at every level of the organization and how to translate the risk concepts for different audiences and build alignment.

[10:00] Then she had a head of risk who was incredible with data, with an exceptional ability to quantify risk using analytics and evidence. Having a science degree, numbers were not Andréia's strongest area, but working with someone who pushed her helped her to become stronger.

[10:25] Andréia thinks that working in risk in different organizations can help you build those thoughts.

[10:32] Andréia has a Bachelor of Science degree in biology from the University of Bath in England. She's happy she decided not to pursue biology and took the risk road, instead.

[10:55] Justin tells of recently having Kellee Ann Richards-St. Clair on the show. She's on the RIMS Strategic and Enterprise Risk Management Council. Kellee Ann started in Chemistry.l She moved into Energy and Power and became the de facto ERM Manager for her organization.

[11:15] Kellee Ann and Andréia channelled other areas of knowledge to apply them to risk. For Andréia, the statistical side of biology has been helpful in risk management. James Lam states in his CRO Certificate program that risk is probability and statistics. Risk management isn't easy.

[12:19] Andréia believes that legacy tools and practices fall short when they are disconnected from the organization's purpose, vision, mission, and strategic objectives. GRC systems have different modules: an RCSA module, a budding issue module, and an incident module.

[12:49] Andréia hasn't seen a system that can connect the dots well. Risk practitioners don't always know how to connect the dots, either. An RCSA becomes isolated from the risk itself because people don't understand the context of those risks.

[13:17] Working with business senior leaders to understand the context of your organization will help you to provide more valuable use of those tools and practices.

[13:32] Andréia explains RCSA. It stands for Risk and Control Self-Assessment. It's a thought process. You sit down to understand what's most important to you, how much you care about it, and what you have in place to protect what's most important to you.

[13:55] Andréia says the way we try to document that thought process is quite heavy. The industry requires that process to be complicated. Andréia recommends simplifying it.

[14:20] To simplify it, have a process that's more sensible. The industry requires you to do assessments for inherent risk and residual risk. First, determine if a risk is important to you. If it's not important, why are you assessing it?

[15:09] Andréia thinks the industry makes it difficult by requiring organizations to assess risks in a certain way, when it doesn't actually make sense. Managers have to have the courage to say it doesn't make sense for the organization, let's try a simpler approach.

[15:34] Andréia uses screens, but sometimes pen and paper will do. Having that brainstorming session with the business really helps in trying to understand the purpose of what you do for your organization and where you fit in the strategic purpose of the firm.

[15:51] What is most important to you, as opposed to thinking of everything that could go wrong? Risk is not only about negative outcomes but also about opportunities.

[16:09] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[16:31] General registration and speaker registration are also open right now! Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[16:44] Let's conclude our Interview with Andréia Stephenson!

[17:14] Beyond documenting risk, Andréia thinks a risk analyst can shape an organization's risk-aware culture by asking questions. The quality of the questions they ask helps drive culture.

[17:31] When an analyst consistently probes assumptions, highlights all the inconsistencies they find, or asks what this means in practice, that behavior encourages others to think more critically about risk and about what they are doing.

[17:50] Good questions change behaviors. They prompt people to pause and reflect rather than to operate in autopilot, which we all sometimes do.

[18:04] Andréia says analysts can contribute by making risk information simpler, clearer, and more accessible, looking for ways to simplify their reports and focusing on the most important things, day-to-day, for their objectives, and having a less bureaucratic process.

[18:41] Andréia suggests having the courage to speak up when processes don't make sense in the second line of defense to help as much as possible the first line.

[18:51] Risk analysts can influence and change behavior by building truthful and meaningful relationships with people, caring about the business, listening to the business units, taking their feedback to heart, and helping them to change the difficulties they encounter in risk.

[19:19] Andréia works in the second line of defense. She works with a lot of first-line business units. For them, it's a burden when the risk team, the CRO, or the processes change. The risk analyst needs to help them minimize that burden. It's important to be conscious of that.

[19:57] Andréia says when she goes into a new organization, the first thing she does is to understand the current state. What risk practices do they have? How do they operate? After a month, she has figured out how the organization is and how they make decisions.

[20:17] When she has a suggestion, Andréia puts herself on the line for it. More often than not, it has worked out positively because she had good managers who could listen to her ideas for improvement.

[20:41] If something doesn't make sense, you have to be true to yourself and say this process is lengthy, or this document is enormous; let's try to simplify it. Never be afraid of providing views for improvements, so long as you have one and have thought about it.

[21:16] Andréia believes in passion for what you do. You need to be passionate, and if you're not, find your passion. For Andréia, it has always been to be a professional analyst and risk professional. That passion, in turn, drives your curiosity.

[21:40] Look for ways to improve and learn. Working hard is really important, even with AI. Working hard drives good results. Data literacy is very important. Understand the basic principles of data and the basic tools that allow you to do data analysis.

[22:04] Think, pause, and reflect. What does that data mean? What do those patterns mean?

[22:10] Andréia stresses communication. She says she's still working on her communication skills. She is very direct at work. Sometimes that directness can seem abrupt. If something doesn't make any sense, she will put her hand up and say, This doesn't make any sense!

[22:41] Having the soft skill to be able to communicate at all levels of the organization is important. That will set an analyst apart.

[23:33] Andréia says AI is everywhere. She uses AI all the time for work and for her personal life. In her experience, AI is most powerful as a sounding board, a thought partner, and a colleague. It helps you explore ideas, structure problems, and challenge assumptions.

[24:07] The analyst is the one who provides context and judgment. AI can help you generate lots of possibilities, but it can't decide what makes sense for your organization or for you. A critical mindset is very important.

[24:25] Analysts need to treat AI as an extension of their thinking process, not as a replacement for it. You are the Quality Control. You are always the one accountable for the output. AI doesn't understand your business, your culture, or your strategic priorities, but you do.

[24:48] There's always the risk that if you rely on AI without applying your own insight, the output will sound sort of right but not add any value. It may be technically correct, but contextually useless.

[25:12] If analysts don't know how to extract, refine, and apply what the tool gives them, it won't move the needle in a meaningful way.

[25:21] Analysts should work in different places, understand what a good framework is, get certifications, work with risk professionals, work to think about problems you haven't come across before, use critical thinking, and use AI to help perform the mechanical parts of your job.

[25:51] Always rely on your judgment, your relationships, and your understanding of the business you are in.

[26:04] Justin shares that philosophy. He uses AI as a sounding board, to help him if he's stuck on an idea, to help him expand it. If he likes it, he'll go with it. He takes the output as a template and refines it.

[26:31] Andréia says it's almost like having an assistant. If it gives you something different than what you asked for, you can restate your question.

[26:41] Justin's daughter is getting into advanced math in middle school. He doesn't remember a lot of it. He's asked ChatGPT to help him come up with math questions for his daughter. It has been invaluable for that.

[27:20] Andréia uses it for formulas in Excel. She says, You still have to know what you want. You can prompt it to help you remember how to do something. Justin says you need the foundational knowledge.

[27:45] Andréia says foundational knowledge is what will set people apart in their profession, whatever profession it is. She would much rather know what she knows than have AI do something and not feel comfortable with it. The foundation is really important.

[28:08] Special thanks again to Andréia Stephenson for joining us here on RIMScast! Keep an eye out for her on LinkedIn in those super cool CRO Certificate Program promotional videos.

[28:21] Remember, we have two more cohorts coming up, one in January and one in April. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[28:29] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[28:57] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[29:15] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[29:33] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[29:49] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[30:03] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[30:15] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

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RIMS Now

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy | RIMS Legislative Summit SAVE THE DATE — March 18‒19, 2026

Statement on the passing of RIMS Chief Membership Experience Officer Leslie Whittet

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

"CBCP & RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep Bootcamp: Business Continuity & Risk Management"

December 15‒18, 2025, 8:30 am‒5:00 pm EST, Virtual

RIMS-CRMP Exam PrepJanuary 14‒15, 2026, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

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RIMS.org/Webinars

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction 2025 Winner Sadig Hajiyev — Recorded live from the RIMS ERM Conference in Seattle!"

"Presilience and Cognitive Biases with Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams"

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Energizing ERM with Kellee Ann Richards-St. Clair"

"Talking ERM: From Geopolitical Whiplash to Leadership Buy-In" with Chrystina Howard of Hub

"Tom Brandt on Growing Your Career and Organization with ERM"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

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"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

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About our guest: Andréia Stephenson, BSc SIRM, Enterprise Risk Analyst, London Metal Exchange

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews two guests who presented at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025 in Seattle, Washington. First, Dr. Gav Schneider, Group CEO Risk 2 Solution Group and Founder, Institute of Presilience Risk 2 Solution, and second, Shreen Williams, Founder & CEO, Risky Business SW, LLC, and a member of the RIMS Rising Risk Professional Advisory Group. Dr. Schneider explained the meaning of Presilience and risk intelligence in ERM. Shreen Williams discussed the cognitive biases that can be mitigated through the six stages of an ERM Framework.

Listen for insights into implementing an ERM Framework in your organization.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our interviews were recorded live on site at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025 in Seattle. Our guests are Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams. We're going to have fun in this episode! But first…

[:48] The next Virtual RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep will be held on December 9th and 10th. From December 15 through the 18th CBCP and RIMS will present the RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep Boot Camp.

[1:05] Another virtual course will be held on January 14th and 15th, 2026. These are virtual courses. Links to these courses can be found through the Certifications page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:18] RIMS Virtual Workshops! "Managing Data for ERM" will be led again by Pat Saporito. That session will start on December 11th. Registration closes on December 10th. RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:37] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:48] The RIMS CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live, virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:01] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from January through March of 2026. Registration closes on January 5th. Or Spring ahead and register for the cohort held from April through June of 2026. Registration closes on April 6th.

[2:21] Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:25] This episode was recorded at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025. We've covered a lot of ERM ground in the last few episodes, and for those who want to catch up, I've included a link to the RIMS ERM Special Digital Edition of Risk Management magazine in this episode's notes.

[2:49] RIMScast ERM coverage is linked as well. Enhance your ERM knowledge with RIMS.

[2:54] On with the show! We are following up last week's episode with ERM Global Award of Distinction winner Sadig Hajiyev by featuring interviews with two of the presenters who appeared at the RIMS ERM Conference, Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams.

[3:12] Long-time RIMScast listeners may remember Dr. Gav Schneider from an episode in November of 2023. We were delighted that he made the trip all the way from Australia to join us at the ERM Conference in Seattle.

[3:27] Dr. Gav is the Group CEO at Risk2Solution Group and the Founder of the Institute of Presilience. The title of his session on November 17th was "Embedding Presilience and Risk Intelligence into ERM." This harkens back to his prior episode about wicked problems.

[3:45] We're going to start there and discuss how presilience takes that thinking to the next level for ERM leaders, and we're going to get some of his risk philosophies and have a great time. Let's get to it!

[3:56] Interview! Dr. Gav Schneider, welcome back to RIMScast!

[4:24] Dr. Schneider is here at the RIMS ERM Conference for the first time. It's the second-highest-attended ERM Conference in RIMS history. His session, later today, is called "Embedding Presilience and Risk Intelligence into ERM."

[4:54] On Dr. Schneider's last visit to RIMScast, he talked about wicked problems. How does presilience take that mindset and thinking to the next level for ERM?

[5:08] Dr. Schneider says the core idea of ERM is about getting scalable decision-making, recording, and outcomes, in terms of risk, for your organization. More and more, our organizations are facing these wicked problems.

[5:25] We can't function anymore in a world of absolutes. When we plug risk intelligence into the way we think, act, and plan, we become adaptive. We also become opportunity-centric.

[5:37] A wicked problem is not easily solved. When you implement a solution, it often leads to more problems. You have to be able to learn. If you can't learn, you can't adapt.

[6:17] What are the core components of the Presilience Framework? Dr. Schneider says, simplistically, we think about tackling risk at three levels: the self, the team, and the organization. Then we overlay that with people and process, connected through leadership.

[6:34] To make that work, we have to develop a set of core attributes: situational awareness, critical thinking, enhanced decision-making, effective and directive coms, the ability to act and enact, and the ability to learn and grow.

[6:46] When you can plug that into your architecture, leveraging insight, hindsight, and foresight, you then can make the right calls about whether or not to do something. It becomes an overlay model for most ERM-type structures, where we can plug the human piece into the system.

[7:15] Dr. Schneider says the core aim of ERM turns risk management into a team sport, with everyone across an organization reporting, collaborating, and understanding to make great decisions about where the organization is and where it's going, not where we think it is.

[7:32] To do that, we need to plug certain things into the ecosystem of the organization, some of which are policies, procedures, and tech. Most ERM experts do that. The piece that we've ignored is the human part, because it's hard.

[7:49] Dr. Schneider has compiled The Organizational Risk Culture Standard. It took about nine months of work. It was a thorough process. Five experts wrote it, 15 peers reviewed it, and 11 organizations have approved it, endorsed it, and are supporting it.

[8:09] For years, Dr. Schneider had heard that organizations would not focus on human-centricities that they couldn't measure.

[8:17] Dr. Schneider's framework has 10 domains with a maturity model that aligns beautifully with RIMS's ERM Model. It's built to encapsulate and incorporate ISO 31000 and COSO. Dr. Schnieider has just released it, free to download.

[8:39] Dr. Schneider is excited about presenting his session in a couple of hours. Everyone tells him that the RIMS ERM Conference is the sharp end of the spear, with the smartest risk people. The session is "Embedding Presilience and Risk Intelligence into ERM."

[9:10] Session attendees will learn about risk intelligence. Dr. Schneider's definition is an applied attribute or living skill that enables you to seize upside opportunities while you manage potential negative outcomes.

[9:44] When you speak of risk intelligence as a living skill and applied attribute, it becomes an ability to scale great decision-making. You want risk-intelligent people, working in risk-intelligent teams, empowered and structured into a risk-intelligent organization.

[10:18] Dr. Schneider says if we can't get those three layers to integrate and work together, you get frustrated stakeholders. Get your ERM team working to get everyone to understand the basics of risk reporting, using the metrics, and sharing information.

[10:33] Justin compares it to the gears in a watch. Dr. Schneider agrees; there's not one moving piece, it's a complex ecosystem in most organizations because humans are complex. We're relying on tech and on variables we don't control.

[10:46] Dr. Schneider says, in the conference, everyone's accepted how disruptive the current climate is, how difficult it is to forecast, and how uncertainty and volatility are dominating.

[10:59] With that in mind, we've got to think of it differently. You can't force people to adopt a system and think it will work. If you want to get a high-performance culture, ERM is an incredibly useful tool, but only if people want it, like it, want to use it, and understand the benefit it adds.

[11:17] Dr. Schneider thinks ERM is going to take a massive leap forward because of generative AI and because we've done well in process-based risk management. There are models, standards, and tools we can reference on how to do this.

[11:32] Why most organizations fail is that people don't understand people and the drivers people have. The one thing that Dr. Schneider would love people to take away from his session is that "I have to start with me."

[11:43] Dr. Schneider continues. If I'm trying to get people to do something, I need to understand the voice in my head, what's coming out of my mouth, and what my actions are. If I can't control that, what makes me think I'm going to change organizational culture?

[11:54] It starts with me. Then I can move to us, and we can get this high-performing risk team. If I can get a high-performing risk team, now we are ready to take it through the organization. We can be the real value-add.

[12:06] The risk departments of the future are not going to be what they were or what they are now. They're not going to be compliance departments anymore.

[12:14] Risk departments of the future are going to be insight, hindsight, and foresight departments. They're going to create understanding of what's happened, what's happening, and what we need to do to capitalize on opportunity, while we manage downside.

[12:34] Dr. Schneider points out that if we're looking at the same thing, we see something different. That's great for managing bias, but terrible if we can't align because we'll each think we're right, and pull apart.

[12:47] One of the missions is to develop adaptable, high-performing humans who can leverage tach, collaborate, and solve problems. That's the future of risk management.

[13:05] Dr. Gav Schneider, I look forward to popping into your session today. It is called "Embedding Presilience and Risk Intelligence into ERM."

[13:19] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with them. Booth sales are open now!

[13:42] Registration is open for RIMS members. General registration and speaker registration will open on December 3rd. Marketplace and Hospitality badges will be available starting on March 3rd. Links are in this episode's show notes.

[13:55] Let's Bring out Our Next Guest, the Founder and CEO of Risky Business SW LLC, Shreen Williams!

[14:05] If you are a regular reader of RIMS Risk Management magazine, you may recognize her name from the byline of a recent article, "How to Overcome Cognitive Biases in Risk Management."

[14:19] Shreen is also a member of the Rising Risk Professional Advisory Group here at RIMS. She presented at the ERM Conference a session in the Foundational Level, called "Beating the Bias: Exposing and Combating Cognitive Biases in ERM."

[14:35] Justin sat in on this session, and he had some follow-ups about cognitive biases and how they relate to ERM and risk management, generally. If you missed the session or have not yet read the article, this will give you a taste of what you missed or what you're going to read.

[14:53] We're going to have a lot of fun! Let's get to it!

[14:56] Interview! Shreen Williams, welcome to RIMScast!

[15:05] Justin sat in on Shreen's session, "Beating the Bias: Exposing and Combating Cognitive Biases in ERM." Shreen explains that there are more than 150 biases from the standpoint of the psychology of human behavior.

[15:29] Shreen focuses on the ones that are relevant to the ERM process. There are more than enough. In her presentation, Shreen focused on seven biases. The lifecycle for the ERM process has six stages. Five stages cover one bias each; the Risk Assessment stage covers two biases.

[16:00] Justin mentions that for anyone who attended, the handout is available through the RIMS Events App. Shreen says she also put a QR code on the deck, so if you got the deck, you have that code, as well.

[16:27] Shreen has an audio-visual platform she uses to get her thought leadership content out about what she loves most. She calls herself a risk nerd. She likes talking about the discipline in a way that's accessible and digestible to the end user.

[16:43] Shreen says most of the time, you'll see the term ERM delivered in such a complex and jargon-filled way that it turns folks off who are not in this sector. That leads to confusion, overwhelm, and killing their engagement.

[16:54] Shreen loves doing interviews to talk about the discipline in a way that is approachable, accessible, and digestible to the end user without any academic discipline.

[17:05] In her session, Shreen said that cognitive biases often embed themselves in ERM processes without detection. Shreen describes a bias in the first stage of the ERM process life cycle, Identification. The bias that creeps in is Complexity Bias.

[17:33] Shreen says that Complexity Bias is when organizations or people believe that the more complex something is, the more superior it is. It's not always true, and it's the worst posture to have in ERM.

[17:48] Shreen gives a Complexity Bias example. A company hires a consultant to create an ERM Program and gets a 200-page framework to give to employees. The executives feel smart. The front-line employees are overwhelmed. It's too complex. It can't be operationalized.

[18:13] You don't have consistent risk participation because the people don't know how to do it.

[18:17] Shreen explains her technique to handle Complexity Bias. If you can't explain something in two minutes or less, go back to the table and try again. The more digestible you make the lingo, the more it will stick.

[18:39] Shreen is a visual learner. She sees things clearly if you show them in an infographic. Different generations may learn differently. Shreen is very close to Gen Z. They keep her young! They also give her fresh perspectives on the discipline.

[19:09] Ten years ago, most of the college curriculum for risk management was highly insurance-centric: actuary, underwriting, claims adjudication.

[19:21] Shreen started in the banking sector, where ERM is prevalent and mature. Other industries didn't see the need for it. There were no regulatory requirements for it.

[19:30] From the young people she coaches and mentors, Shreen has seen that universities are now teaching not only the insurance side but also ERM, and are framing the discipline as Risk Resilience.

[19:51] Shreen says young people are graduating with a broader perspective of the discipline, which opens opportunities for them.

[20:00] Shreen has said she was the sober adult in the room while the leadership doused itself in champagne. She embraced that role when she joined the tech sector. Before then, Shreen worked for companies in heavily regulated industries: finance, transportation, and government.

[20:18] Shreen says tech is completely night and day different from those industries. She says it's a hyper-close space. You have to get to things quickly and tell leaders what you are going to do immediately. You have about three minutes in front of the board. You have to be quick.

[20:31] You have to be highly visual. You don't need 50 bullet points on the screen to make your point. You should be the expert. The visual just makes it more accessible to the people.

[20:46] Shreen explains Premortem Analysis. We all talk about postmortems and after-actions. This makes ERM practitioners cringe.

[21:05] Everything that happened was something you told the people was something on the table, and no one took you seriously, so now you're reactive and resolving whatever risk materialized.

[21:16] Premortems are a favorite of Shreen's because you get to work through whatever that scenario is or that initiative is and flesh it out, from end to end. Then you reverse-engineer it and go back for each opportunity or risk you identify, good or bad, and you get to the best response.

[21:30] If the initiative gets approved, you've already flushed out everything that could go wrong.

[21:51] Shreen told a joke during the session that if you want your initiative to die, take it to ERM, and they'll tell you no. Shreen says, No, take it to ERM to get a clear and confident Yes.

[22:14] Justin tells Shreen, You left us yesterday with a great sentiment that bias is not the enemy, blindness is. That hearkens back to everything in a premortem analysis.

[22:27] Shreen's final words to the audience: "For those who are new to the discipline, do not be turned away or feel like you're not enough or something's wrong with you because you don't understand it. It's not you. It's likely the person or textbook you're getting information from.

[22:40] "Most of the things that teach about ERM are highly theoretical. If you can find someone to align with, someone who's a mentor to you, see what they do, and how they go about it, highs and lows, you'll learn a lot more about the discipline hands-on than from any book.

[22:55] Blindness and blind spots you cannot see. Sometimes you're focused like a racehorse with blinders on. With blinders on, you cannot avoid bias. Humans are a big part of the process. With humans come human biases.

[23:21] The mitigant for bias is to have an awareness of it and have your little toolbox of those leading biases that you can go around to mitigate.

[23:31] Justin says, Shreen, it's been such a pleasure.

[23:36] Special thanks once again to Dr. Gav Schneider and Shreen Williams for joining us here on RIMScast. They were fantastic speakers. I've got links to Dr. Schneider's prior episode and Shreen's RIMS Risk Management magazine article in this episode's show notes.

[23:54] Be sure to check out last week's episode with Sadig Hajiyev, one of the two winners of the RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction. For more ERM Conference coverage, check out the RIMS LinkedIn page for all sorts of photos, videos, and coverage of this fantastic event.

[24:11] We had a great time, and we look forward to seeing you next year in Washington, D.C. for the RIMS ERM Conference 2026.

[24:19] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[24:47] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[25:04] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[25:22] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[25:38] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[25:52] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[26:04] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for exhibitors, members, and non-members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS ERM Special Edition 2025

RIMS Newsroom: "Two Dynamic ERM Programs Win Top Honor at RIMS ERM Conference 2025"

RIMS Risk Management Magazine: "How to Overcome Cognitive Biases in Risk Management"

RIMS Now

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy | RIMS Legislative Summit SAVE THE DATE — March 18‒19, 2026

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep December 9‒10, 2025, 9:00 am‒4:00 pm EST, Virtual

CBCP & RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep Bootcamp: Business Continuity & Risk Management December 15‒18, 2025, 8:30 am‒5:00 pm EST, Virtual

Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

"Leveraging Data and Analytics for Continuous Risk Management (Part I)" | Dec 4.

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

RIMS-CRMP Prep Workshops

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction 2025 Winner Sadig Hajiyev — Recorded live from the RIMS ERM Conference in Seattle!"

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Energizing ERM with Kellee Ann Richards-St. Clair"

"AI and the Future of Risk with Dan Chuparkoff" (RIMS ERM Conference Keynote)

"Talking ERM: From Geopolitical Whiplash to Leadership Buy-In" with Chrystina Howard of Hub

"Shawn Punancy of Delta Flies High With ERM"

"Tom Brandt on Growing Your Career and Organization with ERM"

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

"Solving Wicked Problems with Dr. Gav Schneider" (2023)

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL (New!)

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025' | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

Want to Learn More?

Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Have a question or suggestion? Email: [email protected].

Join the Conversation!

Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

About our guests: Dr. Gav Schneider, Group CEO Risk 2 Solution Group / Founder Institute of Presilience Risk 2 Solution

Shreen Williams, Founder & CEO, Risky Business SW, LLC

Also a member of the RIMS Rising Risk Professional Advisory Group

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Sadig Hajiyev, SOCAR Türkiye, Risk & Compliance Group Director, about SOCAR Turkiye and winning the RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction. Sadig speaks of their ERM transformation that shifted SOCAR Türkiye from a compliance-oriented approach to an integrated, strategy-driven system, and a pivotal change. Sadig explains how they keep the ERM cohesive for business leaders, enabling decision-making. Sadig comments on external shocks that pressure-tested the program, showing the organization's true resilience and how it adapted its ERM approach. He speaks of one innovation with the biggest measurable impact. Justin and Sadig discuss SOCAR Türkiye's maturity jumping from a level-3 "repeatable" program to a level-5 "leading practice" in just a few years, supported by both the RIMS RMM and internal surveys, and how they are sustaining that momentum, having reached the top tier.

Listen for words of wisdom and encouragement for risk practitioners.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. Our guest today is Sadig Hajiyev. He is the Risk & Compliance Group Director for SOCAR Türkiye, and he was one of two recipients of the RIMS Global ERM Award of Distinction.

[:47] We will talk about the unique characteristics of his ERM Program and his unique risk philosophies. But first…

[:55] The next RIMS-CRMP-FED Exam Prep with AFERM will be held on December 3rd and 4th. The next RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep with PARIMA will be held on December 4th and 5th. These are virtual courses.

[1:12] Links to these courses can be found through the Certifications page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:19] RIMS Virtual Workshops! "Managing Data for ERM" will be led again by Pat Saporito. That session will start on December 11th. Registration closes on December 10th. RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:38] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:50] The RIMS CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is hosted by the famous James Lam. This is a live, virtual program that helps elevate your expertise and career in ERM.

[2:02] You can enroll now for the next cohort, which will be held over 12 weeks from January through March of 2026. Registration closes on January 5th. Or Spring ahead, and register for the cohort that will be held from April through June of 2026. Registration closes on April 6th.

[2:22] Links to registration and enrollment are in this episode's show notes.

[2:27] This episode was recorded at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025. We've covered a lot of ERM ground in the last few episodes, and for those who want to catch up, I've included a link to the RIMS ERM Special Digital Edition of Risk Management magazine in this episode's notes.

[2:50] RIMScast ERM coverage is linked as well. Enhance your ERM knowledge with RIMS.

[2:56] On with the show! This special episode was recorded live from Seattle at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025.

[3:05] It was one of the best-attended ERM Conferences in RIMS history, with hundreds of ERM practitioners and students from around the world connecting, learning, and celebrating.

[3:17] In RIMS tradition, we awarded the RIMS Global ERM Awards of Distinction. This year, there were two winners, one of which was SOCAR Türkiye, a pioneering energy company based in Turkey. The company's ERM program wowed our judges.

[3:34] Accepting the award is Sadig Hajiyev. He is the Risk & Compliance Group Director. As you will hear, he took the ERM Program to the next level. Since we were in person, it was the perfect time to sit down and speak with him after receiving his award.

[3:49] We're going to learn all about the program and Sadig's unique risk philosophies. Let's get to it!

[3:53] Interview! Sadig Hajiyev, welcome to RIMScast!

[4:18] Sadig says winning the award is a great feeling! Knowing someone here understands the value of the ERM Program and appreciates it is great! He shared photos and his reflections with his organization and got many congratulations, even though it was almost midnight in Turkey!

[5:09] Saig explains that SOCAR is a global company, based in Azerbaijan, with more than 100K people working in Turkey. They have refineries and petrochemical facilities working together. They are also in the energy trading business. They have terminals.

[5:34] They have multiple sectors, including fiber optic cables. They are doing so much in Turkey. SOCAR Türkiye is the biggest single-point investment in the history of Turkey, worth around $20 billion U.S.

[6:01] Sadig's department is 15 people, including compliance professionals. They have a resource pool of experts and allocate teams as needed.

[6:16] In 2022, SOCAR Türkiye shifted from a compliance-oriented approach to an integrated, strategy-driven system.

[6:29] SOCAR Türkiye does international business. It is highly dependent on international trade regulations, especially trade sanction regulations. Being compliant is not sufficient for SOCAR Türkiye. Sadig says sanction regulations are very dynamic, and you should be adaptive to them.

[6:57] Sadig says adaptation should be risk-based. At that time, SOCAR Türkiye started to implement risk-based compliance studies and approaches to make healthier decisions. They understood that it was the right decision.

[7:21] SOCAR Türkiye has a modular ERM framework that spans Scenario Analysis, Risk and Control Self-Assessments (RCSAs), Regulatory Attestation Cycles, the ISO 22301, and the Resilience Maturity Model.

[7:42] Justin asks how Sadig keeps them cohesive and digestible so that his leaders in SOCAR know that ERM is enabling decision-making. Sadig says it's not easy. They all met the needs that came up.

[8:14] The risk leader needs to understand the context of the company. Being very close to the first line, Sadig does not believe there is value in going to the C-Suite and asking what they expect of risk management. They have no idea.

[8:33] Sadig says it's more important to have a smooth discussion with them. At that point, the skill of the risk manager comes in to understand the context there and find out what would work best for this need. By that, you are supporting the company's decision-making.

[9:05] Sadig is a boxer. He keeps telling his team that risk management shouldn't be very friendly. Conversations shouldn't be easy or enjoyable. Discussions should be disruptive. Sadig risk is the department asking, if zombies are coming and invading our vault, what will happen?

[9:47] Risk leaders are the ones at the table to trigger those discussions and have the tough conversations. At that time, a leader's personality and personal brand are important. Managers should understand you are not doing it just to disrupt.

[10:08] You are doing it for the company's sake, to make the decision-makers consider all the aspects, risks, threats, and opportunities.

[10:43] SOCAR Türkiye faced significant external shocks in the last couple of years: security incidents, sanctions, and energy price volatility that pressure tested the ERM Program, but the company demonstrated resilience.

[11:11] Each of these incidents had its own dynamics that made the ERM Program learn or find a way to adapt.

[11:29] Turkey is a country with a very diverse range of uncertainties: political, economic, and geographical. The oil and gas sector is under pressure from international regulations, the climate, and more. There are so many issues going around.

[11:51] Facing real-time instances can be disruptive and impactful on daily business. The most important thing is the ability to adapt. It's the top management's job to adapt. Risk management is about the future. If something happens, risk management is there to support.

[12:23] Quick Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. It's time to Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate wth them. Booth sales are open now!

[12:45] Registration is open for RIMS members now, as well. General registration and speaker registration will open on December 3rd.

[12:53] Links are in this episode's show notes, and this year, when you purchase one Full-Conference Pass by December 2nd, you can add a second Full-Conference Pass at 50% off, through December 31st.

[13:07] When an eligible member selects a Full-Conference Pass while registering online, a Promo Code will be generated on the Review step of the registration form.

[13:05] This code will also be included in the Confirmation Email. It may be shared with a second eligible member from the same company or same email domain, and receive that 50% discount. Bring a colleague for 50% off. This is available to organizational and individual RIMS members.

[13:32] Links are in this episode's show notes.

[13:35] Let's Return to My Interview with 2025 RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction Winner Sadig Hajiyev!

[13:46] Justin speaks of SOCAR Türkiye's impressive innovations, dynamic risk appetite metrics tied to EBITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, and Amortization), an AI Geopolitical Scenario Engine, and a Resilience Scorecard linked to Capital Allocation.

[14:10] Justin says he thinks all of this helped drive SOCAR Türkiye's nomination to the winning category. Justin asks which one brought the biggest measurable impact.

[14:20] For the biggest financial result, Sadig says it was the assumption studies SOCAR Türkiye implemented to its financial projection. Sadig believes risk managers look at a range of values.

[14:50] Sadig says, like quantum physics, it's not one or zero. It can be one or zero in different contexts and times. The assumption studies proved that, in context, for a set point of time, a long-term financial projection is useless. Sadig focuses on short-term targets and planning.

[15:21] Sadig says short-term planning is annual to less than five years. Sadig believes the assumption studies had a measurable financial impact.

[15:34] Justin notes that SOCAR Türkiye's Maturity jumped from a Level 3 Repeatable Program to a Level 5 Leading Practice in just a few years, supported by the RIMS Risk Maturity Model and internal surveys.

[15:53] Justin asks what cultural or leadership behaviors Sadig believes were essential to achieving that Level 5 performance. Sadig says it is prioritization. They have a well-developed metric to model, mostly inspired by the RIMS Maturity Model, with tailored components added.

[16:29] Sadig says SOCAR Türkiye conducts a biannual Maturity Survey with its target audience, the risk champions, decision-makers, and C-Suite.

[16:41] The SOCAR Türkiye ERM Program defined its Maturity Model with the participation of an external auditor. They were missing the implementation of the GRC Platform, the digitalization of the whole system, strategy embedding, and risk-based budgeting.

[17:04] The ERM Program prepared a roadmap to link up with the GRC Platform, implemented the roadmap, and defined the latest state as a fixed level.

[17:27] Having achieved the top tier, the ERM Program is still chasing new things to do. Now, they are focusing first on incident management and second on captives.

[17:46] For incidents, it's easy to collect information based on the declaration, but Sadig is dreaming about eliminating the human factor from incident recording to have a very objective and transparent information base.

[18:03] The ERM Program has already worked on it to link the incident information to the risk assessment. This can automate the risk assessment based on the incident results or impacts.

[18:18] The next step is finding how to monetize the maturity level of risk management. This idea brought SOCAR Türkiye to implement captives.

[18:37] SOCAR Türkiye has a tremendous amount of budget allocated to insurance. They can rely on, to a certain threshold, the ability to manage risks in a controlled environment, in the effort to optimize their insurance program and budget. Captives are the future.

[19:07] Justin comments that the RIMS 2025 Risk Manager of the Year is the Captive Manager for her organization, Hyatt. The trend is that a lot of people are going toward captives to self-insure. It can be a revenue generator.

[19:27] Sadig adds that the move to captives is not just to put risk management in more of a position of strategy or as a budget supporter. It's because of the risk environment. There are new risks emerging and evolving.

[19:46] Sadig believes these new risks will be uninsurable in the near future because of AI and new cyber risks. The insurance sector is not able to adapt quickly enough to create a pool to insure the risk all around the world. The responsibility will stay with companies and captives.

[20:31] Sadig's final words on the value of ERM: Risk managers in the company are the only people who take the future in a systematic way. The future is always important, never urgent, but when it comes, it's already here.

[20:49] The board and the C-Suite rely on risk managers to be able to have better insight before the future comes.

[21:03] Justin says teşekkürler (thanks)! It's been a real pleasure to meet you, and congratulations again!

[21:11] Special thanks again to Sadig Hajiyev for joining us here on RIMScast. This episode was produced live on-site at the RIMS ERM Conference in Seattle. Our coverage of the RIMS ERM Conference will continue in the next installment of RIMScast with two interviews in one episode!

[21:28] Be sure to visit the RIMS LinkedIn page for all sorts of photos, videos, and coverage of this fantastic event! We had a great time, and we look forward to seeing you next year in Washington, D.C., for the RIMS ERM Conference 2026.

[21:44] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[22:13] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[22:31] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[22:48] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[23:05] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[23:19] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[23:31] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy | RIMS Legislative Summit SAVE THE DATE — March 18‒19, 2026

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISKWORLD 2026 Registration — Open for Members!

Reserve your booth at RISKWORLD 2026!

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS ERM Special Edition 2025

RIMS Now

SOCAR Türkiye

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP-FED Exam Prep with AFERM Virtual Workshop — December 3‒4

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep with PARIMA — December 4‒5, 2025

Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

"Leveraging Data and Analytics for Continuous Risk Management (Part I)" | Dec 4.

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

RIMS-CRMP Prep Workshops

Related RIMScast Episodes:

"Risk Rotation with Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex"

"Energizing ERM with Kellee Ann Richards-St. Clair"

"AI and the Future of Risk with Dan Chuparkoff" (RIMS ERM Conference Keynote)

"Talking ERM: From Geopolitical Whiplash to Leadership Buy-In" with Chrystina Howard of Hub

"Shawn Punancy of Delta Flies High With ERM"

"Tom Brandt on Growing Your Career and Organization with ERM"

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"Secondary Perils, Major Risks: The New Face of Weather-Related Challenges" | Sponsored by AXA XL (New!)

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

Want to Learn More?

Keep up with the podcast on RIMS.org, and listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Have a question or suggestion? Email: [email protected].

Join the Conversation!

Follow @RIMSorg on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

About our guest: Sadig Hajiyev, Risk & Compliance Group Director, SOCAR Türkiye

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Julia Anna Potts, President and CEO of the Meat Institute, about her career, background, lifelong interest in agriculture and food, and how she joined the Meat Institute following a career in environmental law. The discussion covers the role of the Meat Institute in the food supply chain and how it serves member companies and the food industry in general, through its food safety best practices and a free online course, "The Foundations of Listeria Control." Julia reveals the Protein PACT initiative and explains how food safety relates to risk management with their shared values. She tells how meat processors are good community members.

Listen for advice on the culture of safety and how it starts at the very top of the organization.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. We will be joined by Julia Anna Potts, the CEO of the Meat Institute. We'll discuss food safety and education, and risk frameworks that the Institute uses to ensure that our food and supply chains are clean. But first…

[:47] The next RIMS-CRMP-FED Exam Prep with AFERM will be held on December 3rd and 4th. The next RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep with PARIMA will be held on December 4th and 5th. These are virtual courses.

[1:03] Links to these courses can be found through the Certifications page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:11] RIMS Virtual Workshops! On November 19th and 20th, Ken Baker will lead the two-day course, "Applying and Integrating ERM."

[1:24] "Managing Data for ERM" will be led again by Pat Saporito. That session will start on December 11th. Registration closes on December 10th. RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:40] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:52] This episode is released on November 18th, 2025, Day Two of the RIMS ERM Conference in Seattle, Washington. We've covered a lot of ERM ground in the last few episodes. For more ERM, click the link to the RIMS ERM Special Edition of Risk Management magazine in the notes.

[2:18] RIMScast ERM coverage is linked as well. Enhance your ERM knowledge with RIMS!

[2:24] On with the show! Our guest is Julie Anna Potts. She is the President and CEO of the Meat Institute. She leads the Institute in implementing programs and activities for the association.

[2:38] She is an agricultural veteran, previously serving the American Farm Bureau Federation as its Executive Vice President.

[2:47] With Thanksgiving coming up next week in the U.S., I thought this would be a great time on RIMScast to talk about food safety, food production, and what another not-for-profit is doing to ensure the safety of our products and the speed and efficiency of our supply chain.

[3:07] We're going to have a lot of fun and talk turkey, so let's get to it!

[3:12] Interview! Julie Anna Potts, welcome to RIMScast!

[3:27] Julie Anna Potts and RIMS CEO, Gary LaBranche, are both part of the Committee of 100 with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Washington, D.C. They get together with other association heads across industries. Julie Anna says it is very valuable.

[3:44] Julie Anna and Gary were talking in the summer about food safety and about what the Meat Institute does, and Gary invited her to be on RIMScast.

[3:57] Justin notes that it is the week before Thanksgiving in the U.S. Juliana says they are doing so much in Washington now, and food safety is always top-of-mind around the holidays. There are lots of turkeys and turkey products being sold in the United States.

[4:45] Julie Anna says turkey is cultural for Thanksgiving, and poultry, and how you cook it and handle it in the kitchen is incredibly important for food safety.

[5:01] Justin asks, Is fish meat? Julianna says fish is protein, but we don't classify it as meat or poultry. Justin wants to keep the argument going with his family at Thanksgiving.

[5:31] Julie Anna says they have lots of arguments around the Meat Institute, like whether ketchup belongs on hot dogs. Julie Anna says the answer to that is no.

[5:41] Julie Anna has been at the Meat Institute for a little over seven years. She came in as President and CEO. She has been in Washington for most of her career, since undergrad. She graduated from law school in D.C. and worked at a firm.

[5:59] Julie Anna has been in agriculture, representing farmers for years. She went to the Senate as Chief Counsel of the Senate Agriculture Committee. She has been at the Meat Institute for the last seven years.

[6:19] Food and agriculture have been central to Julie Anna's career and also to her family life. Her husband grew up on a farm. Julie Anna is two generations off the farm.

[6:32] They love to cook, dine out, and eat with their children; all the things you do around the holidays, and gather around the Thanksgiving table. They have passed to one of their three children their love of food traditions. She's their little foodie.

[6:52] Julie Anna has a career and a personal life that is centered around food.

[7:11] The Meat Institute members are the companies that slaughter animals and do further processing of meat. They are in the supply chain between livestock producers and retail and food service customers.

[7:35] To be a general member of the Meat Institute, you have to have a Grant of Inspection from the Food Safety Inspection Service of the USDA. The Federal Grant of Inspection is a requirement to be able to operate and to sell into the market.

[7:56] When we look at the capacity we have at the USDA, in the last several months, we're not seeing a decline in capacity, but more emphasis on our Food Safety Inspection Service.

[8:18] Through DOGE, voluntary retirements, through additional resources coming in with the One Big Beautiful Bill, and through recruiting, the Meat Institute is seeing its member companies have staffing, even through this government shutdown. They're considered essential, as always.

[8:54] The Meat Institute was established in 1906 for the purpose of addressing food safety and industry issues. Those are Jobs One, Two, and Three, every day. The Meat Institute has all kinds of education it offers to its members.

[9:15] The members of the Meat Institute have strong food safety programs. They have HASSA Plans and third-party audits. The Meat Institute helps any member company of any size, from 25 employees to global companies, with education on, for example, Listeria training.

[9:53] The Meat Institute has just launched an online platform that has had great uptake. If you have associates in your business who have never had food safety training, for all levels of folks, there is online, free, and freely available training on how to deal with Listeria.

[10:19] All the Meat Institute member companies have significant Food Safety staffing and Food Safety Quality Assurance Programs. Julie Anna praises the people throughout the industry who work in Food Safety for their companies. It's a life-or-death matter.

[10:45] Food Safety staff are always seeking to become better, so the Meat Institute has a Food Safety Conference and Advanced Listeria Training (an in-person module). They interface with the regulators, who are partners with the Meat Institute in this.

[11:14] The Meat Institute is always striving for better Best Management Practices across everyone's programs, which are never just the minimum. A philosophy of doing just what is compliant does not get you into the best space.

[11:36] The Meat Institute is here to encourage Best in Class, always. Food Safety is non-competitive in the Meat Institute. Everyone across the different-sized companies, from 25 employees to 100,000, can feel comfortable sharing what's working for them.

[12:06] That is important when it comes to conferences and other things they do. Let's be candid with each other, because nobody can get better if you're not.

[12:17] The Meat Institute has seen cultural issues where CEOs don't think about Food Safety and Quality Assurance because they have great people taking care of it. That's true a lot of the time, until it isn't.

[12:42] The tone that needs to be set at the very top of the organization is that this is hugely important for risk management. Hugely important for your brand and your ability to operate.

[12:56] The Meat Institute board asked, if we are pushing culture down through the organization, what kinds of questions do I need to ask, not just my Food Safety Team, but everyone, and demonstrating my knowledge, understanding, and commitment to governance of this big risk?

[13:31] The Meat Institute created a template of a set of questionnaires for executives. It is a C-Suite document and documentation.

[13:47] It's a voluntary questionnaire for a CEO, regardless of company size, indicating that you understand how important this is in ensuring that everything that you push down through your organization, culturally, is focused on Food Safety.

[14:05] The link to the Listeria Safety Platform is in this episode's show notes.

[14:11] Justin says the structure of the Meat Institute is very similar to the structure of RIMS, with open communications and knowledge-sharing, or else the industry does not grow or improve.

[14:27] Justin says it sounds like the industry executives are stepping up their game amid the tumult coming out of Washington. Julie Anna agrees.

[14:47] Julie Anna says the Meat Institute has been driving that progress. It is incredibly important. Julie Anna thinks that in a lot of industries, there is a pull and tug between the companies and regulators.

[15:07] In the case of meat and poultry inspection and what the Meat Institute does with FSIS, it is a collaboration. The inspectors verify for consumers what the companies are doing to keep food safe.

[15:28] It is up to the company to decide how it is going to do this effectively and successfully and get better at it.

[15:41] Numerous third parties do audits and help customers across the supply chain, but the responsibility rests with the companies.

[15:59] The Meat Institute staff has highly technical people who come out of academia, out of the plant, having done FSQA, Legal, and safety regulations. There are folks who have been in inspection in the government at FSIS.

[16:29] The Meat Institute has several staff whose job it is to stay on top of the latest improvements and ensure that everybody knows what those are, and in dialogue with our FSIS inspection leadership here in Washington, D.C.

[16:46] The Meat Institute looks to FSIS to make sure that consumer confidence is there. It does nothing for our industry if consumers think that FSIS isn't being an effective regulator. [17:11] The Meat Institute companies have to be the ones that do more than the bare minimum to ensure they're doing the best they can. The Meat Institute's philosophy is always to push further and further.

[17:25] There is an expense associated with that. The Meat Institute does its best to help manage that risk for its companies by giving them everything they need to be the best that they can be.

[17:40] The Meat Institute has 36 employees. They are very transparent in the Food Safety world. They want non-members to take advantage of all their resources in Food Safety. A lot of the things they offer on education and regulations can be accessed without being a member.

[18:14] The Meat Institute has recently joined an alliance to stop food-borne illness and is looking to get more engaged in that organization. That's across several segments, not just meat and poultry.

[18:35] The Meat Institute has committed and re-committed over the years to the efforts it makes with its companies. The Meat Institute looks for its companies to be leaders in the Food Safety space.

[18:53] Quick Break! The RIMS CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is our live virtual program led by the famous James Lam. Great news! A third cohort has been announced, from January through March 2026!

[19:14] Registration closes January 5th. Enroll now. A link is in this episode's show notes.

[19:22] Save the dates March 18th and 19th, 2026, for The RIMS Legislative Summit, which will be held in Washington, D.C.

[19:31] Join us in Washington, D.C., for two days of Congressional Meetings, networking, and advocating on behalf of the risk management community. Visit RIMS.org/Advocacy for more information and updates and to register.

[19:45] We've got more plugs later. Let's return to our interview with Meat Institute CEO Julie Anna Potts!

[19:56] Julie Anna says a lot of our companies are also regulated by the FDA because they do further processing. For example, pizzas with pepperoni, or any number of mixed products that have both FDA and USDA regulatory personnel on site.

[20:20] FSIS is, by far, more present and more in tune with what member companies are doing than the inspectors at the FDA.

[20:30] Justin asks if restaurants can be members of the Meat Institute. There is a segment of membership called Allied Members, which includes restaurants and grocery stores. If they are not processors, but they are procuring meat and poultry for sale, they are in the meat industry.

[21:09] The Meat Institute has had a great deal of interaction on many issues with its retail and food service customers.

[21:25] Shortly after she joined the Meat Institute, Julie Anna was handed a mandate from the board to be proactive and lean in on the things consumers are interested in with an initiative to continue to maintain or rebuild trust.

[21:48] These are things like food safety, animal welfare, environmental impact, and worker safety. They call this initiative Protein PACT (People, Animals, and the Climate of Tomorrow). Food Safety is front and center in Protein PACT.

[22:13] The Meat Institute has a way of focusing its efforts through this lens of improvement in five areas that work together to reassure consumers. When they know that you're working on all these issues and trying to improve, it increases trust in all the above issues.

[22:54] Retail and Food Service customers in the industry want to know more and more. They want to know upstream, what are you doing to get better?

[23:05] They want to know how they can take the data that you are collecting anonymously and in the aggregate to communicate at the point-of-sale area to ensure that their customers, collectively, are getting what they need?

[23:23] Julie Anna saw this recently at H-E-B, a popular grocer in Texas. Julie Anna walked through one of their huge, beautiful, newly renovated stores. The engagement the ultimate customer has is in the store, asking questions of the butcher.

[24:07] It's wonderful to be able to say, If you have food safety concerns, we have a relationship that we can give you the knowledge you need to answer those concerns, and it's coming very consistently across the industry.

[24:40] Justin asks, When the Meat Institute members lean in, are they leaning in at 85% or 93%? You'll only get ground beef jokes here, on RIMScast! Julie Anna says, it's all good. Justin says those kinds of jokes are called The Manager's Special.

[25:17] One Final Break! RISKWORLD 2026 will be held from May 3rd through the 6th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. RISKWORLD attracts more than 10,000 risk professionals from across the globe. Guess what! Booth sales are open now!

[25:37] This is the chance to showcase your solutions, meet decision-makers face-to-face, and expand your global network. Connect, Cultivate, and Collaborate with us at the largest risk management event of the year. The link to booth sales is in this episode's show notes.

[25:53] Let's Return to the Conclusion of My Interview with Meat Institute CEO Julie Anna Potts!

[26:16] Julie Anna was an environmental lawyer in private practice. Her work involved the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, the National Environmental Policy Act, and Superfund. One of her clients was the American Farm Bureau Federation (AFBF).

[26:42] When Julie Anna left the firm, she moved in as General Counsel to the AFBF, the largest general farm organization in the U.S. Besides environmental law, she worked there in lots of other types of law as General Counsel.

[27:06] At the Meat Institute, Julie Anna collaborates with the AFBF. The ag sector in Washington, D.C., is very collaborative. The Meat Institute works closely with the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, the National Pork Producers Council, and the commodity groups.

[27:35] Everybody is connected. If you are working on an animal issue, you're going into crop groups and animal health companies. The Meat Institute works with everyone. Their philosophy is, We all get better when we share knowledge.

[28:03] That's the basis of the conversation Julie Anna and Gary LaBranche had in the summer about this podcast. The Meat Institute has resources it would love to share on the risk management of food safety issues.

[28:20] The Meat Institute also knows consultants and other help outside of the meat industry that they can point people to, as needed. The Meat Institute would love to be a resource to the listeners of RIMScast. You can check out the contact information in the show notes.

[29:02] Julie Anna is familiar with risk professionals. She serves on the board of Nationwide Insurance. Nationwide Agribusiness has Food Safety expertise. When Julie Anna practiced law, she worked with clients on helping them manage risk and assess potential outcomes.

[30:09] Julie Anna says risk management is one of her favorite topics. How do you plan to recover from a flood after a hurricane? How do you plan for farm animal disease? There are now three animal disease outbreaks that are constantly on their minds at the Meat Institute.

[30:31] The Meat Institute helps run tabletop exercises with its companies, sometimes involving government officials, as well. It's New World Screwworm to the South. It's High Path Avian Influenza, which has crossed over from poultry to dairy and beef cattle.

[30:48] Julie Anna continues, We have African Swine Fever, which has not gotten to the United States, thank goodness! All of these require a certain level of preparedness. So we work on it as a policy matter, but we also need to operationalize what happens when this happens.

[31:16] The pandemic is a good recent example of what happens when things fall apart. Member companies have a very limited ability to hold live animals if they're not going to slaughter. They don't have anywhere to go.

[31:44] The pandemic was an example of what happens when something reduces capacity and the animals start backing up. It's incredibly important that things work. The pandemic was unimaginable to a lot of people. It tested our risk management models.

[32:10] Once we were there, dealing with it, we had incredible adaptability to the circumstances we were facing. That only happens if you face certain problems every day to keep that plant running. For member companies, if the plants don't run, the animals don't have a place to go.

[32:37] Farmers get a lower price for their animals, consumers have the perception that there's not going to be enough food, and there's a run on the grocery stores. During the pandemic, it righted itself really quickly, once we got some PPE, etc. in place, and some guidance.

[32:59] The member companies relied heavily on the CDC to tell them how to get people in so the plants could run. It was difficult for everyone. Julie Anna thinks that we learned a lot from that experience on how to help your company troubleshoot in the moment to keep going.

[33:37] Julie Anna addresses how PFAS issues are being handled. It's an EPA issue and a state's issue for regulations on packaging and recycling. The state issues are predominant. Environmental issues are being addressed at the state level. We could end with 50 regimes.

[35:04] That's where there's more risk for the Meat Institute and its members, especially companies that sell nationwide. There is very little state regulatory work that the Meat Institute does directly.

[35:26] The Meat Institute is examining how to utilize other resources to figure out, with a small staff, how to monitor and stay ahead of these things for our members. That's very much on their minds. The EPA's work has been swinging back and forth between administrations.

[36:02] It's hard to convince a business of a good recommendation if the rules are going to change with the next administration. It's a problem of where to invest in things like measuring emissions and what to do to satisfy customers when the rhetoric changes dramatically.

[37:04] Justin says we've had a different administration every four years for the last 16 years. He says if he were a business owner, he would do everything he could to make sure the water coming in and going out is clean to avoid verdicts. Nuclear verdicts are through the roof.

[37:27] Julie Anna speaks of social inflation by juries wishing to send a message to big corporate entities. She says member companies are dealing with these issues all the time. What's the right amount of rulemaking for effluent limitation guidelines?

[38:20] The Meat Institute had opposed what the Biden administration had proposed, given that the number of companies it estimated would not be able to stay in business was close to 80. The Trump administration has backed off and is leaving in place what was there before.

[38:52] That's all part of the Federal policy debate in D.C. It does not diminish the commitment its members have to be good community members. They work in their communities. Julie Anna was just down in East Tennessee at a wonderful family company, Swaggerty Sausage.

[39:16] They do water treatment. They are beloved in the community because of how they take care of people. They bring in pigs from North Carolina and turn them into sausage. Julie Anna met the fifth generation. He is eight months old.

[39:40] Julie Anna had a great visit with people, understanding how their commitment to the environment and animal welfare, and the things they can show their community members that they are doing, works for them. Julie Anna saw how the sausage is made, Justin adds.

[40:28] Justin says, You've been such a delight to speak with, and we've learned so much. Is this the busiest time of year for your members, with Thanksgiving coming up, the religious holidays coming up, and then New Year's? Are they keeping Safety at the top of their risk radar now?

[40:59] Julie Anna says Our members, and we, keep Safety at the top of the risk radar every single day. It does not get harder during high-volume days.

[41:15] There's a spike around Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and Labor Day. There's a lot more turkey happening around Thanksgiving and possibly Christmas, but certainly, hot dogs, hamburgers, sausages, brisket, and all kinds of things. It's cyclical.

[41:49] Julie Anna wishes Justin could come into a plant with her, walk through, and see the number of times there are interventions for food safety. X-rays for foreign material. Sprays for certain types of pathogens, and the ways in which the hide is treated.

[42:14] It is such a huge part, and they are so proud of what they do. They are happy to show anybody how we continue to hold that up as the most important thing. Worker Safety is also hugely important. We're talking about our humans and what we do to protect them.

[42:42] Safety is really important, and it does not receive any less attention at busy times.

[42:50] Justin says that's a great sentiment to close on. It has been such a delight to speak with you, and I'm so glad we had the chance to do this. It's going to be especially impactful now, just ahead of Thanksgiving and the religious holidays, and the New Year.

[43:16] Special thanks to Julie Anna Potts of the Meat Institute for joining us here on RIMScast just ahead of Thanksgiving 2025. Links to the Meat Institute resources are in this episode's show notes, as is RIMS coverage of Food Safety and related topics.

[43:34] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[44:02] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[44:20] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[44:38] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[44:54] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[45:09] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[45:21] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

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About our guest: Julie Anna Potts, CEO, The Meat Institute

Production and engineering provided by Podfly.

Welcome to RIMScast. Your host is Justin Smulison, Business Content Manager at RIMS, the Risk and Insurance Management Society.

In this episode, Justin interviews Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex about how the ERM Team serves as the "conscience" of Paychex and how it operates within the organization. Some of the topics include winning the RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction in 2024, structured peer reviews, risk rotation, a strong culture of risk management, interviewing new team members, fostering curiosity, and preparing for mergers and acquisitions. They talk about having the ear of the executive team and promoting a culture of risk management for the entire organization.

Listen for tips on presenting to an audience of ERM practitioners.

Key Takeaways:

[:01] About RIMS and RIMScast.

[:17] About this episode of RIMScast. I'm delighted to be joined by Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of the ERM Team at Paychex. They won the RIMS Global ERM Award of Distinction in 2024. We're going to talk all about their risk and RM philosophies. But first…

[:53] The next RIMS-CRMP-FED Exam Prep with AFERM will be held on December 3rd and 4th. The next RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep with PARIMA will be held on December 4th and 5th. These are virtual courses.

[1:10] Links to these courses can be found through the Certifications page of RIMS.org and through this episode's show notes.

[1:18] RIMS Virtual Workshops! On November 19th and 20th, Ken Baker will lead the two-day course, "Applying and Integrating ERM."

[1:31] "Managing Data for ERM" will be led again by Pat Saporito. That session will start on December 11th. Registration closes on December 10th. RIMS members always enjoy deep discounts on the virtual workshops.

[1:46] The full schedule of virtual workshops can be found on the RIMS.org/education and RIMS.org/education/online-learning pages. A link is also in this episode's notes.

[1:59] The RIMS ERM Conference 2025 will be on November 17th and 18th in Seattle, Washington. The agenda is live, and this is the last week to register so click the registration link in this episode's show notes or visit the events page on RIMS.org.

[2:16] The RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep will be held on-site, on November 15th and 16th in Seattle. You can learn more by clicking the link in this episode's show notes.

[2:29] On with the show! Our guests today are winners of the RIMS Global Award of Distinction in 2024. Bill Coller and Lori Flaherty are past presenters at the RIMS ERM Conference.

[2:44] They let us into their thought process a little bit this year in the RIMS ERM Q&A Series, with an interview titled, "Risk Optimized Decision-Making at Paychex." We will expand on that dialog a bit here today on RIMScast, so Let's get to it!

[3:03] Interview! Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller, welcome to RIMScast!

[3:21] Lori and Bill were winners of the RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction in 2024, in Boston.

[3:42] ERM is a passion for Lori and Bill. Bill says, You have to love it to be in it as long as we've been in it. It's always something new every day. There's always some new challenge that we have to keep our eyes on.

[4:07] Lori has been in risk management, in different roles, for a little over 25 years. She has been with Paychex for eight years, leading the ERM Team.

[4:31] Bill has been in risk management for over 20 years. He has been in the ERM space for about four years.

[4:53] Lori loves the diversity on her team. In an ERM program, you need a diverse team without groupthink. Bill and Lori are not the same at all, and they complement each other. Bill agrees.

[5:42] Lori says the whole risk organization at Paychex has more than 800 people, some were added due to the recent acquisition of Paycor. The ERM Team has about 10 people.

[6:21] Justin says listeners can learn about the contributions Lori and Bill made during a complex and time-consuming acquisition by checking out the ERM Q&A from 2025, "Risk Optimized Decision-Making at Paychex", by Russ Banham, in this episode's show notes.

[6:52] In the interview, Paychex described ERM as acting like the company's conscience. Lori says ERM, a small but mighty team within a large risk organization, may seem challenging to have the ear of leadership, but they have a direct line.

[7:25] One of the values as a risk organization, as well as a Paychex organization, is talking about integrity. Integrity is a key cornerstone of the team. The ERM Team remains independent.

[7:38] Although the ERM Team reports to the risk organization, where the risk organization sits within the enterprise, this is part of what enables the ERM Team to remain independent. ERM is not transactional or client-facing.

[7:55] The ERM Team has strong partnerships with the Enterprise Strategy Team and other key leaders across the enterprise. Leaders count on the ERM Team and reach out to them. Being independent allows the ERM Team to be the conscience of the company.

[8:29] Bill says, The ERM Team has several different risk review programs. They always have an actionable remediation plan that comes out of any risk review. They are reporting and remediating any residual risk.

[8:54] Before the completion of any program, the ERM Team gains commitment from the risk owner to own the remediation plan. That allows the ERM Team to continually follow up and make sure that the remediation plan is taking form and remediating the risk.

[9:19] It's easy when they get that commitment before the end of the program. That sets the stage. Then they follow up.

[9:36] Bill says he is going through the process now to hire a new team member. He is looking for someone who has ERM experience. That can be difficult to find. There are a lot of people out there with experience who love the job they have, stay, and continue to build their programs.

[10:17] First is true ERM experience. Outside of that, someone with internal audit experience, with the ability to view risks from a data-based perspective, and identify what could happen and how often it could happen, the impact of it happening, and how to mitigate the risk.

[10:47] With any interviewing, you have to get the best that you can through many different characteristics and experiences.

[10:57] Lori adds, We want someone who complements the diversity and the team. You can teach methodologies, like COSO, internal audit, and business processes. It's hard to teach people to be curious and to think from a risk mindset.

[11:36] Those are key skills, no matter the role; certainly for this role. For anyone joining the team, it's that mindset. You need to remain curious. Channel your inner toddler, asking the why.

[11:59] Quick Break! The RIMS CRO Certificate Program in Advanced Enterprise Risk Management is our live virtual program led by the famous James Lam. Great news! A third cohort has been announced, from January through March 2026!

[12:21] Registration closes January 5th. Enroll now. A link is in this episode's show notes.

[12:29] Save the dates March 18th and 19th, 2026, for The RIMS Legislative Summit, which will be held in Washington, D.C.

[12:37] Join us in Washington, D.C., for two days of Congressional Meetings, networking, and advocating on behalf of the risk management community. Visit RIMS.org/Advocacy for more information and updates and to register.

[12:52] We've got more plugs later. Let's return to our interview with Bill Coller and Lori Flaherty of Paychex!

[13:10] Does inquisitiveness enhance the risk culture? Lori says that staying curious is key, especially when looking at remediation, defining risks, thinking about scenarios, and what could go wrong. Being curious opens your mind up to what could be.

[13:47] Bill says it's tough to measure a strong risk culture. Bill looks at interactions with key partners across the enterprise. ERM meets with folks across the enterprise very frequently in Key Partnership Meetings.

[14:13] The key partners are engaged with ERM, and they're having productive conversations. A lot of the risk programs the ERM Team performs are at the request of those partners. That's one way to measure a strong risk culture: full engagement and asking ERM to perform risk reviews.

[14:33] Lori and Bill accepted the award last year, with Frank Fiorille. Lori says Frank is the Chief Risk Officer. He is the VP of Risk for Paychex. Lori and Bill report directly to Frank. He is over all the other risk teams, also.

[15:15] Lori and Bill were heavily involved with the Paycor acquisition. Their involvement in the acquisition was critical. If you're in ERM and you're not a part of the M&A process, you should definitely be. It's aligning the strategic objectives of your company. M&A strategy is part of that.

[16:13] The ERM Team is involved in the due diligence and the whole process. It's a critical part of your ERM program.

[16:31] Bill explains that Risk Rotation is an ERM program. They bring in people from outside of the risk management organization to spend a week with the ERM Team. Since COVID

[17:17] The ERM Team shares exactly what they are doing and puts the people through exercises. Bill has a risk scoring exercise. He asks them to bring some risks that they face in their roles. Bill talks about impact, likelihood, and control effectiveness, and makes a heatmap.

[17:57] Frequently, after a Risk Rotation, some will ask to participate in a future Risk Review.

[19:02] Lori shares tips for presenting at a RIMS conference. Knowing your material and being passionate about the topic are important. A presenter should know the audience. You are the audience. What would you want to know?

[19:24] When Lori goes to a session, she wants to know how to practically apply what this means. She wants some takeaways. She wants to know how the presenter is doing it, what's working, and what's not working. Keeping that in mind is super helpful.

[19:42] When Lori has presented, she tells them, This is what's worked at Paychex. She can see the audience becoming much more engaged, even in the questions afterward. They're super interested in what worked.

[20:30] Justin recalls how Lori was at the 2021 New York ERM Conference and how engaged she was in asking questions of that year's award winners, and what they had to do to win.

[21:02] One Final Break! As many of you know, the RIMS ERM Conference 2025 will be held on November 17th and 18th in Seattle, Washington. We recently had ERM Conference Keynote Speaker Dan Chuparkoff on the show.

[21:20] He is back, just to deliver a quick message about what you can expect from his keynote about "AI and the Future of Risk." Dan, welcome back to RIMScast!

[21:30] Dan says, Greetings, RIMS members and the global risk community! I'm Dan Chuparkoff, AI expert and the CEO of Reinvention Labs. I'm delighted to be your opening keynote on November 17th, at the RIMS ERM Conference 2025 in Seattle, Washington.

[21:45] Artificial Intelligence is fueling the next era of work, productivity, and innovation. There are challenges in navigating anything new. This is especially true for risk management, as enterprises adapt to shifting global policies, economic swings, and a new generation of talent.

[22:03] We'll have a realistic discussion about the challenges of preparing for the future of AI. To learn more about my keynote, "AI and the Future of Risk Management," and how AI will impact Enterprise Risk Management for you, listen to my episode of RIMScast at RIMS.org/Dan.

[22:22] Be sure to register for the RIMS ERM Conference 2025, in Seattle, Washington, on November 17th and 18th, by visiting the Events page on RIMS.org. I look forward to seeing you all there.

[22:33] Justin thanks Dan and looks forward to seeing him again on November 17th and hearing all about the future of AI and risk management!

[22:41] Let's Return to Our Interview with 2024 RIMS Global ERM Award of Distinction Winners, Lori Flaherty and Bill Coller of Paychex!

[22:57] Bill presented at the New York ERM Conference 2021, before he joined the ERM Team. Presenting is a great experience. Knowing your audience is a big part of it. He especially appreciates the questions from the audience. It's wonderful to have an engaged audience.

[23:34] If you haven't presented in the past, Bill recommends it. It's a great experience. You just have to know your stuff before you get up there. Feel confident about it.

[23:47] Justin advises, Definitely don't wing it!

[24:01] Bill is a RIMS-CRMP holder. He has held the designation for about two years. He attended a virtual program to prepare for the test, and it was very beneficial. He had talked with people before and after they certified, who fully recommended it. That prompted him to certify.

[24:59] Bill has been in risk management for a long time. It wasn't an easy certification, but he had a good basis to go from. He had to put the time in preparing for it. It felt great to pass.

[25:45] Bill also took the James Lam course for CROs. He was in the first cohort. It was a great experience. Learning directly from James is incredible, hearing some of his stories from over the years, and being in a class with other risk professionals, and hearing their stories.

[27:17] Lori says that AI is definitely on the Emerging Risk Register at Paychex. It has a very high velocity. The ERM Team has done a number of scenario analyses on the AI side through the years. They just completed another one.

[27:36] In addition to AI, there are other emerging risks. Quarterly, the ERM Team issues a Key Risk Profile that highlights the emerging risks on the radar. They plot out all the risks they are monitoring.

[28:00] On the radar currently are macroeconomic and geopolitical risks. They are looking at scenarios and repivoting after the election on November 4th. They spent a tremendous amount of time on the geopolitical risk and related macroeconomic impact. It's not going away soon.

[28:34] AI is at the forefront. They just had a meeting, going through a scenario analysis on AI impacts.

[28:45] Paychex is also leveraging AI. They have a number of tools they are using to build those scenarios. They are looking at controls around the governance structure for AI. It's a disruptor that has a lot of benefits. Disruption can be a great thing!

[29:42] Justin asks what mindset they would need for another acquisition of the size of Paycor. Lori says, Stay curious and be involved early. From an ERM perspective, any merger or acquisition is triggered by the strategic objectives of the company.

[30:07] Understand what the goal is. How does this fit into the strategic objectives of the company? Keep your eye on the ball. Often, the other folks in the organization are focused on the details of how to integrate and how to get the deal done.

[30:23] It's up to us, as ERM professionals, to keep our eye on the ball. Is this fitting within our risk appetite? Keep your eye on strategic objectives and big-picture risks.

[30:36] Bill says curiosity is the biggest characteristic to look for in new team members. Asking questions about why things are happening and why certain things are not happening. And the drive to insert yourself where you need to be to make sure that you're involved and engaged.

[31:23] Justin says you've given us a lot to think about, with the ERM Conference coming up on November 17th and 18th.

[31:34] The Q&A about Paychex's big win last year is in this interview's show notes. Justin says, It's been a pleasure getting to know you both over the last few years. I look forward to seeing you at another RIMS event. Congratulations again on winning the ERM Award of Distinction.

[32:06] Lori says the award is prominently displayed, with a light on it, in the Paychex front lobby. Justin asks for a photo of it displayed to show that it is held in high regard. He says, You both did great. I really appreciate your time.

[32:40] Special thanks to Bill Coller and Lori Flaherty of Paychex for joining us today here on RIMScast. A link to their special ERM Q&A Series article, "Risk Optimized Decision-Making at Paychex", is available in this episode's show notes.

[33:00] Be sure to look for an upcoming installment of the RIMS-CRMP Stories Series, with Bill Coller, since he is a RIMS-CRMP holder. Congratulations again to them for winning the RIMS ERM Global Award of Distinction in 2024.

[33:17] Plug Time! You can sponsor a RIMScast episode for this, our weekly show, or a dedicated episode. Links to sponsored episodes are in the show notes.

[33:46] RIMScast has a global audience of risk and insurance professionals, legal professionals, students, business leaders, C-Suite executives, and more. Let's collaborate and help you reach them! Contact [email protected] for more information.

[34:04] Become a RIMS member and get access to the tools, thought leadership, and network you need to succeed. Visit RIMS.org/membership or email [email protected] for more information.

[34:22] Risk Knowledge is the RIMS searchable content library that provides relevant information for today's risk professionals. Materials include RIMS executive reports, survey findings, contributed articles, industry research, benchmarking data, and more.

[34:38] For the best reporting on the profession of risk management, read Risk Management Magazine at RMMagazine.com. It is written and published by the best minds in risk management.

[34:53] Justin Smulison is the Business Content Manager at RIMS. Please remember to subscribe to RIMScast on your favorite podcasting app. You can email us at [email protected].

[35:04] Practice good risk management, stay safe, and thank you again for your continuous support!

Links:

RIMS ERM Conference 2025 — Nov. 17‒18 | Register Now

Pre-ERM Conference RIMS-CRMP-Prep | Onsite in Seattle, November 15‒16, 2025

RIMS-CRO Certificate Program In Advanced Enterprise Risk Management | Jan‒March 2026 Cohort | Led by James Lam

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy | RIMS Legislative Summit SAVE THE DATE — March 18‒19, 2026

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

The Strategic and Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS Diversity Equity Inclusion Council

RIMS Risk Management magazine | Contribute

RIMS Now

RIMS ERM Q&A Interview with Bill Coller and Lori Flaherty (2025)

"RIMS Honors Three Organizations with the 2024 Enterprise Risk Management Global Award of Distinction"

Upcoming RIMS Webinars:

RIMS.org/Webinars

Upcoming RIMS-CRMP Prep Virtual Workshops:

RIMS-CRMP-FED Exam Prep with AFERM Virtual Workshop — December 3‒4

RIMS-CRMP Exam Prep with PARIMA — December 4‒5, 2025

Full RIMS-CRMP Prep Course Schedule

"Applying and Integrating ERM" | Nov 19‒20, 2025 | April 4, 2026

"Leveraging Data and Analytics for Continuous Risk Management (Part I)" | Dec 4.

See the full calendar of RIMS Virtual Workshops

RIMS-CRMP Prep Workshops

Related RIMScast Episodes about ERM:

"AI and the Future of Risk with Dan Chuparkoff" (RIMS ERM Conference Keynote)

"Energizing ERM with Kellee Ann Richards-St. Clair"

"Talking ERM: From Geopolitical Whiplash to Leadership Buy-In" with Chrystina Howard of Hub

"Shawn Punancy of Delta Flies High With ERM"

"Tom Brandt on Growing Your Career and Organization with ERM"

"James Lam on ERM, Strategy, and the Modern CRO"

"ERM, Retail, and Risk with Jeff Strege"

"Bigger Risks with the Texas State Office of Risk Management | Sponsored By Hillwood""ERMotivation with Carrie Frandsen, RIMS-CRMP"

"Live from the ERM Conference 2024 in Boston!"

"Risk Quantification Through Value-Based Frameworks"

Sponsored RIMScast Episodes:

"The ART of Risk: Rethinking Risk Through Insight, Design, and Innovation" | Sponsored by Alliant (New!)

"Mastering ERM: Leveraging Internal and External Risk Factors" | Sponsored by Diligent

"Cyberrisk: Preparing Beyond 2025" | Sponsored by Alliant

"The New Reality of Risk Engineering: From Code Compliance to Resilience" | Sponsored by AXA XL

"Change Management: AI's Role in Loss Control and Property Insurance" | Sponsored by Global Risk Consultants, a TÜV SÜD Company

"Demystifying Multinational Fronting Insurance Programs" | Sponsored by Zurich

"Understanding Third-Party Litigation Funding" | Sponsored by Zurich

"What Risk Managers Can Learn From School Shootings" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Simplifying the Challenges of OSHA Recordkeeping" | Sponsored by Medcor

"How Insurance Builds Resilience Against An Active Assailant Attack" | Sponsored by Merrill Herzog

"Third-Party and Cyber Risk Management Tips" | Sponsored by Alliant

RIMS Publications, Content, and Links:

RIMS Membership — Whether you are a new member or need to transition, be a part of the global risk management community!

RIMS Virtual Workshops

On-Demand Webinars

RIMS-Certified Risk Management Professional (RIMS-CRMP)

RISK PAC | RIMS Advocacy

RIMS Strategic & Enterprise Risk Center

RIMS-CRMP Stories — Featuring RIMS President Kristen Peed!

RIMS Events, Education, and Services:

RIMS Risk Maturity Model®

Sponsor RIMScast: Contact [email protected] or [email protected] for more information.

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About our guest: Lori Flaherty, Paychex

Bill Coller, Paychex

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