This is one of the most productive podcast interviews in my short history of these attempts.

Rob Wegner is a good friend and a super intellect. Better yet, he understands the way forward after the pandemic taught us all the fragility of church as we've known it since Constantine, and certainly the way it looked so long ago back in 2019.

You'll laugh, and perhaps cry, through this interview.

Cut the head off a spider and it dies - same result if you cut off a couple of legs.

Cut two legs off a starfish and you get three starfish. Sever all five legs and you'll have six starfish. Every cell of the starfish has the ability to regenerate the entire animal.

Cut the head off of the typical U.S. church and it dies or at least goes into a slump. We too often look more like spiders than the church Jesus planted. When the head of the church ascended to heaven he sent the Holy Spirit to live in each believer and every cluster where they gathered. When persecution dismembered the church it multiplied like parts of a starfish.

Rob Wegner, Lance Ford and Alan Hirsch partnered, with the help of Ori Brafman who wrote the original Starfish and the Spider, to write this amazing challenge to us all to be more than we've imagined.

Crucially appearing on the backside of COVID, even the timing of its release was God ordained--the book held up for two years with production delays. This book is perfect for leaders attempting to discern the way forward after the pandemic.

For more, check the Kansas City Underground or scope out the book.

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