Rogue L+D Hotshots with Tom Bailey

AI is changing L&D, but Laura Overton believes the real innovation starts somewhere else: in our minds.

In this episode of the Rogue L&D podcast, Tom Bailey is joined by L&D researcher and author Laura Overton to explore what it really takes to create business impact through learning. Laura shares insights from 20 years of research into high-performing L&D teams, the role of innovation and AI, what L&D can learn from strategic marketing, and why curiosity and critical thinking are essential for the future of the profession. She also reflects on her career, Towards Maturity, and her new book, The L&D Leader.

Laura’s Bio

Laura Overton is a researcher and award-winning learning analyst who has spent 35+ years observing how L&D professionals drive business value through continuous disruption. For 15 years she led Towards Maturity, the industry's longest-running global benchmark programme, producing over 70 research reports. Laura is the founder of Learning Changemakers and co-author of The L&D Leader: Principles and Practice for Delivering Business Value (Kogan Page). She is an Academic Fellow of the CIPD and the first woman to receive the LPI Colin Corder Award. Right now, when everyone's talking about navigating unknown territory, her pattern-making helps learning leaders discover new pathways to business impact.

High-performing L&D teams think more like strategic marketers. They start by understanding what the business and its people actually need, rather than trying to match a learning product to the problem.

Laura argues that the real opportunity with AI is asking, "Can I do something today that I couldn't do yesterday?" Technology alone won't transform L&D if we're still operating within the same old definition of what an L&D professional does.

Laura's research has consistently focused on how learning innovation can deliver better business impact. She argues that curiosity, critical thinking and questioning the data are essential, even if you aren't a data analyst yourself.

Key Takeaways

1. Start with the business problem, not the learning solution

2. AI is only as innovative as the thinking behind it

3. L&D needs to get better at understanding business impact

Timestamps:

• [00:00:54] Meet Laura Overton and her L&D journey
• [00:02:42] What was Towards Maturity?
• [00:05:12] Why L&D research needs deeper reflection
• [00:08:32] Laura's North Star: learning innovation and business impact
• [00:09:36] What is the best learning innovation?
• [00:10:44] How AI is changing the way L&D thinks
• [00:12:22] What L&D can learn from strategic marketing
• [00:14:24] The library programme that transformed frontline behaviour
• [00:31:36] How L&D professionals can use research and data
• [00:36:28] Laura's advice: be bold, business-aware and open-minded

Links

• Laura Overton on LinkedIn

• Learning Changemakers Website

• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn

A Māori ritual, a virtual workshop, and a Cavoodle somehow explain the future of learning and development.

What does great learning actually look like when you strip away the corporate buzzwords, endless modules, and performative workshops? This episode dives deep into the human side of learning and development, from creating genuine learning communities to designing experiences that lead to real behaviour change. The conversation explores why curiosity, inclusion, and connection matter more than ever in an AI-driven world and why many organizations still struggle to move beyond information delivery into meaningful transformation.

The episode also explores how learning spaces can become more inclusive, emotionally safe, and community-driven. Featuring insights from learning designer, facilitator, coach, and Crackin’ LnD founder Darryn Gray, this conversation blends practical L&D thinking with Māori perspectives on learning, connection, and shared growth. From virtual facilitation challenges to the future of human-centered learning, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on what modern development should actually feel like.

Key Takeaways

1. I’ve learned that real learning happens when people feel safe enough to experiment, contribute, and change — not when they’re overloaded with content. Creating spaces for conversation matters more than building endless programs.
2. The future of L&D isn’t about competing with AI. It’s about becoming stronger advocates for human connection, behavior change, and inclusive learning experiences.
3. Community changes everything. When people find spaces where they can openly learn together, share struggles, and challenge ideas, growth becomes faster, more meaningful, and more sustainable.

Timestamps

[00:00] Māori learning rituals and creating sacred learning spaces

[03:12] Transitioning from education into modern L&D

[05:08] Why Crackin’ LnD was created

[09:18] Building an organic L&D community across Australia and New Zealand

[13:18] Why behavior change matters more than content

[15:24] Turning on the “learning light” for struggling learners

[20:48] Creating a Māori and Western braided learning evaluation model

[27:36] When virtual facilitation goes wrong

[34:10] The hidden disability that changed how learning was designed

[38:42] The best advice for anyone working in L&D

Links

• Darryn Gray on LinkedIn
• Darryn Gray Consulting
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

While much of the L&D world is focused on AI, Andrew Lawson has doubled down on neuroscience and the results speak for themselves.

What makes learning truly stick?

In this episode of Rogue L&D, Tom Bailey sits down with 2026 AITD Learning and Development Professional of the Year, Andrew Lawson, to explore the neuroscience behind effective workplace learning.

Andrew shares his journey from struggling through school as a neurodiverse learner to becoming one of Australia's most respected L&D practitioners. He explains why he believes learning should be delivered in short, focused bursts, how neuroscience can dramatically improve learning transfer, and the six elements that underpin his learning design model.

The conversation covers facilitation, curiosity, performance consulting, workplace application, and why understanding the real business problem is often more important than delivering training.

Whether you're an L&D professional, facilitator, consultant or people leader, this episode offers practical insights into creating learning experiences that people actually remember and use.

Key Takeaways

1. Learning works best in small, focused bursts

Andrew believes 90 minutes is the optimal maximum learning window, allowing facilitators to work with the brain rather than against it.

2. Learning transfer matters more than learning delivery

The real value comes from helping people apply ideas back in the workplace through simple experiments and deliberate practice.

3. Curiosity is one of the most important skills in L&D

Great practitioners resist jumping to solutions and instead spend time understanding the real business problem.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] Welcome to Rogue L&D

[00:00:45] Andrew's origin story: struggling at school, falling for how memory works

[00:03:00] David Rock, the AGES model, and standing on giants' shoulders

[00:04:15] Winning L&D Professional of the Year 2026

[00:06:00] Betting on neuroscience while the industry chases AI

[00:07:15] Bite Size Learning: why 90 minutes is the ceiling

[00:12:00] The program that beat "eight years of learning in eight months"

[00:13:40] The special sauce: contracting, context, and tiny experiments

[00:15:15] Interlude: the three-tier thumbs up (and when it offends)

[00:18:20] The facilitation skill he never trained for

[00:21:00] Proudest moment, and why peer validation hits different

[00:24:00] Starstruck: the day a Brumbies legend walked into his workshop

[00:27:00] The thing nobody knows: economics, surf lifesaving, and a career pivot

[00:31:30] The model: Time, Attention, Relevance, Generation, Emotion, Retention

[00:36:15] Best advice: stay curious, don't jump to the solution

[00:38:00] When half the room got laid off on Friday

[00:41:00] ATD America and the bucket-list conference

[00:43:30] Where to find Andrew

Links:

• Andrew Lawson on LinkedIn
• The Learning Zone
• Just Ninety
• Best Practice Consulting
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

Most training requests are just guesses and they’re costing you more than you think.

Most organizations are flooded with training requests. But what if those requests are solving the wrong problems? This episode explores how shifting from a training mindset to a performance mindset can completely change the value L&D delivers. It breaks down how to challenge assumptions, ask better questions, and focus on measurable outcomes that actually move the business forward.

Nigel Harrison, a psychologist and global expert in performance consulting with decades of experience advising organizations worldwide, shares a practical model for uncovering real performance gaps and identifying solutions that go far beyond training. The conversation dives into how to build trust with stakeholders, avoid becoming an order taker, and reposition L&D as a true business partner driving meaningful results.

Key Takeaways

1. I’ve learned that most requests for training are actually requests for solutions—not clearly defined problems—and jumping straight to delivery adds no value.
2. I now focus on identifying performance gaps first, using questions to uncover what’s really happening and what success actually looks like.
3. I’ve realized that building rapport and understanding the client’s world is what allows me to challenge assumptions without resistance.

Timestamps

[00:00] Introduction to performance consulting

[01:30] Why training is often the wrong starting point

[03:00] The shift from training to performance thinking

[05:00] Why managers jump to solutions

[07:00] How to respond to training requests effectively

[10:00] The 3 phases of the performance consulting model

[12:00] Measuring performance gaps (not training outcomes)

[16:00] Why training needs analysis is flawed

[20:00] Psychology, rapport, and influencing clients

[28:00] Real-world example: solving without training

[35:00] The shift to virtual coaching and better outcomes

[39:00] The single most powerful question to ask

Links

• Nigel Harrison on LinkedIn
• Performance Consulting
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website
• Books by Nigel Harrison

Most L&D teams are solving the wrong problems and Natal Dank explains why

A pioneer in business and HR agility, Natal Dank joins the Rogue L and D Podcast to challenge everything you think you know about learning and development.

Natal is a globally recognised workplace transformation specialist, author of Agile HR and Agile L&D, and Executive Director at PXO Culture. Known for her evidence based, value led approach, she works with organisations worldwide to improve performance, productivity, and the experience of work.

In this episode, Natal shares why L&D must stop jumping to solutions and start solving real business problems. She breaks down what it means to work product led, how to prioritise the right challenges, and why Agile as an industry may have lost its way.

If you want to move from delivering training to driving measurable impact, this conversation is essential listening.

Key Takeaways

1. You need to stop treating requests as learning problems and instead focus on solving real business challenges that impact performance
2. You should prioritise ruthlessly because there are always more problems than capacity and not all are worth solving
3. You must test and validate solutions early rather than jumping straight into building full programmes

Timestamps

[00:04:10] Delivering value vs delivering training

[00:05:15] Employee experience as a product

[00:06:20] Why onboarding is a shared problem

[00:07:10] The real skill is prioritisation

[00:08:05] Stop jumping to solutions

[00:11:35] It is not a learning problem

[00:13:10] Design thinking in L&D

[00:14:05] The internal job marketplace experiment

[00:18:00] Measuring real performance outcomes

[00:19:15] Agile HR is dead explained

Links

• Natal Dank on LinkedIn
• Natal Dank’s Website
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website
• PXO Culture

The most powerful learning does not happen in classrooms, it happens in the middle of the job

In this episode of the Rogue L&D Podcast, Tom Bailey is joined by Andy Lancaster, Chief Learning Officer at Reimagine People Development and former Head of Learning at the CIPD.

Andy reflects on over three decades in learning and development and explains why performance, not courses, should be the true focus of the profession. He explores learning in the flow of work, systemic thinking, psychological safety and how technology, including AI, should enable experienced practitioners rather than replace them.

The conversation also dives into reflective practice, burnout, wellbeing, innovation under pressure, and why the best learning solutions often come from the people doing the work. Andy shares personal stories, career lessons, and practical advice for anyone working in L&D, HR or people development.

Key Takeaways

1. Learning is most powerful when it supports performance in real work, not when it pulls people away from it.
2. Technology and AI should amplify experienced practitioners, not replace human judgement and empathy.
3. The greatest learning impact often comes from collaboration, reflection and drawing on hidden capability within organisations.

Timestamps

[00:00:00] Podcast introduction and positioning of Rogue L&D

[00:01:14] Andy Lancaster’s background and learning philosophy

[00:03:06] Instructional design, AI and why humans still matter

[00:05:27] Why performance should be the real focus of L&D

[00:08:02] Learning in the flow of work and systemic thinking

[00:09:43] High impact L&D example created with minimal budget

[00:14:58] AI as real time performance support in healthcare

[00:17:36] Burnout, wellbeing and reflective practice

[00:31:02] Creativity, silversmithing and rediscovering lost passions

[00:38:57] Change, vision and the transtheoretical model of behaviour change

Links

• Andy Lancaster on LinkedIn
• Reimagine People Development
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

What if AI isn’t threatening your job — but exposing how we work?

AI isn’t just another tool rollout, it’s reshaping how people think, work, and relate to their jobs. This episode explores why most AI initiatives struggle, what really drives adoption, and how learning and people teams can lead change without fear, guilt, or burnout. It’s a practical and human conversation about mindset, skills, and designing work that actually supports people.

Drawing on decades of experience across major UK brands and now as a consultant and author, Erica Farmer shares insights from large-scale transformation, neurodivergence, and the realities of running a modern L&D business. As co-founder of Quantum Rise Talent Group and author of AI for People Professionals, she brings a grounded, people-first lens to one of the biggest shifts facing workplaces today.

Key Takeaways

1. I’ve learned that AI adoption fails when we treat it like a system rollout instead of a human shift. Hearts and minds always come before skills and tools.
2. AI isn’t about working faster — it’s about removing mental load so people can do more of what actually matters. That’s the real productivity gain.
3. If L&D doesn’t lead experimentation and mindset change, someone else will. And that’s how the function becomes irrelevant.

Timestamps

• [00:00:00] Introduction & purpose of the podcast
• [00:01:45] Erica’s background and move from corporate to consultancy
• [00:06:10] The realities of running an L&D business
• [00:10:45] AI as more than productivity — the mindset shift
• [00:14:20] The personal “AI dividend” and neurodivergence
• [00:17:30] Why AI adoption fails in organizations
• [00:19:50] Best L&D experience and human-first change design
• [00:27:10] Career failure, neurodivergence, and growth
• [00:33:40] Comic-Con, Marvel, and leadership metaphors
• [00:42:30] Advice for L&D leaders facing AI disruption

Links:

• Erica Farmer on LinkedIn
• Quantum Rise
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

What happens when you let someone interview you on your own podcast and ask what you really think about L&D?

This episode dives into the real truth behind modern L&D, exploring what actually moves performance, what does not, and what most learning teams never say out loud. Listeners will hear how to shift from order taker to strategic partner, why measurement still gets ignored, and how to influence the business by talking the language senior leaders actually use. It is an honest, practical conversation that cuts through the fluff and gets to the heart of what makes L&D valuable.

Kirsty Lewis, award winning founder of School of Facilitation, takes over the microphone and interviews Tom Bailey, ATD award winner and recognised L&D leader. Together they explore the mindset, skills and experiences that shape a high performing people development function, from commercial acumen and internal selling to the influence of AI and the role of real world experiences. For anyone who wants to elevate their L&D impact, this conversation offers grounded insights and fresh thinking without the jargon.

Key Takeaways

1. I realised that the most powerful shift in my career happened when I stopped acting like an employee and started thinking like a consultant.
2. I learned that the vehicle does not matter as much as the outcome, and that measuring real performance is the thing most L&D teams skip.
3. I saw how much better my work became when I stayed connected to the outside world rather than repeating what had always been done.

Timestamps:

[00:00] Welcome to the takeover and setting the tone

[01:00] Why Tom hates being a podcast guest

[02:00] How Tom discovered his real motivation

[03:30] Why business knowledge matters for L&D

[05:15] Sales skills and commercial background shaping L&D success

[07:30] The hidden reality of internal selling in L&D

[09:00] Tom’s biggest soapbox about impact and measurement

[12:30] Why AI will disrupt instructional design

[15:00] The L&D experience that changed Tom’s career

[32:00] Tom’s biggest fails, best lessons and advice for practitioners

[40:00] Final reflections and why the L&D community matters

Links

• Kirsty Lewis on LinkedIn
• School of Facilitation
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

What if the best learning event you ever ran didn’t have a single slide deck?

In this episode of Rogue L&D, Tom sits down with Kirsty Lewis, founder of School of Facilitation and creator of SoFest, a three-day festival celebrating the art and energy of facilitation.

Kirsty shares how her mission to bring connection back into corporate learning sparked a thriving global community of trainers and facilitators. From her Diageo days designing world-class experiential programs to creating SoFest in a literal field, Kirsty shows how real learning happens when people play, talk, and co-create.

They dive into why L&D professionals are often the most professionally lonely people, how to design sessions that feel alive, and why most conferences still get learning completely wrong. Expect plenty of soapboxes, laughter, and hard truths about the future of facilitation, plus the infamous story of how chewing gum almost derailed her corporate career.

If you’re in learning, leadership, or coaching, this episode will reignite your passion for how we teach, connect, and grow people together.

Key Takeaways

1. Experiential beats instructional: Learning sticks when participants do, not when they’re taught.
2. Community cures professional loneliness: Even L&D pros need people who “get it.”
3. Design is everything: Great workshops start with structure, story, and emotional energy — not slides.

Timestamps

• [00:00:20] Tom welcomes Kirsty and her facilitation obsession.
• [00:01:15] The three parts of School of Facilitation explained.
• [00:02:29] The birth of SoFest — why it had to happen.
• [00:04:40] “I’m not a mushroom!” — Kirsty’s rant on bad L&D events.
• [00:07:22] Designing experiential learning and fighting professional loneliness.
• [00:10:10] Why building community beats working solo in L&D.
• [00:12:12] Kirsty’s best-ever L&D program from her Diageo days.
• [00:25:15] Her proudest career moment — creating global Master Trainers.
• [00:26:24] Biggest fail: chewing gum while hungover in a workshop.
• [00:33:39] Final advice: nurture relationships — they shape your L&D legacy.

Links

• Kirsty Lewis on LinkedIn
• School of Facilitation
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website

Most training fails because it forgets the human at the center.

This episode dives deep into how learning becomes more than just training—it becomes an experience people want to be part of. Vanessa Trower, award-winning learning consultant and industry leader, shares her creative approach to designing programs that connect both to the heart and to business outcomes. From the power of storytelling to the importance of collaboration, her insights reveal how to create initiatives that don’t just tick boxes but truly move the needle.

Along the way, Vanessa opens up about her proudest achievements, including winning L&D Professional of the Year, and even some epic failures—like the time an LMS mishap spammed an entire company. With humor, honesty, and practical wisdom, this conversation will leave you rethinking how learning works, what really matters, and how to design experiences people never forget.

Key Takeaways

• Creating learning that connects to both hearts and business outcomes is what makes programs stick.
• Collaboration and valuing other people’s strengths always lead to stronger results than going solo.
• Even mistakes and failures can become the spark for some of the best learning experiences.

Timestamps

• [00:00] Introduction & Vanessa’s background
• [01:31] Why she focuses on meaningful learning experiences
• [03:20] What truly fires her up about L&D
• [05:20] Balancing creativity with business impact
• [07:11] Vanessa’s favorite campaign: “Homecoming”
• [11:06] Personal quirks: gestures, cooking, and food
• [13:36] Learning Spanish—and the reality of failure
• [15:55] Proudest career moments & major awards
• [20:47] Her worst L&D experience: the LMS email fiasco
• [29:01] Vanessa’s best advice for anyone starting in L&D

Links

• Vanessa Trower on Linkedin
• Nexperk
• Tom Bailey on LinkedIn
• Tom Bailey Website