What happens when you mix marketing smarts with L&D practice? In this episode, Roy talks with Bianca Baumann and Mike Taylor, co-authors of Think Like a Marketer, Train Like an L&D Pro. Together, they explore how marketing mindsets and methods can help learning professionals better understand their audience, personalise training, and move beyond one-size-fits-none learning.

💡 Spoiler alert: Thinking like a marketer doesn't mean just "jazzing up" your courses.

About Bianca & Mike

Bianca Baumann is a learning strategist based in Toronto with roots in business education and a passion for designing campaigns that drive behaviour change. Mike Taylor is a learning designer with a background in digital marketing, known for his Friday Finds newsletter full of L&D inspiration. Together, they believe L&D can learn a lot from marketing…if we’re willing to listen.

What you’ll learn in this episode:

• Why it’s a problem if your course needs to be “jazzed up”
• What L&D can learn from email marketing and digital body language
• How personas and empathy maps help you really understand your learners
• Why “go to Gemba” is still solid advice for L&D teams
• What to try first if you want to design learning as a campaign
• Why “Compliance 101” might not be the best title for your course
• How Mike and Bianca accidentally ended up writing a book together

Resources & inspiration

📘 Think Like a Marketer, Train Like an L&D Pro – by Bianca & Mike

📚 Alchemy by Rory Sutherland

📚 *Books & blogs by Seth Godin*

💌 Friday Finds by Mike Taylor

📰 MarketingProfs.com

🏢 Content Marketing Institute

Quick tips to apply right away

• Start your next learning journey with audience interviews, not assumptions

• Use headline tools (or AI) to craft more engaging course titles
• Test small campaigns using tools you already have (like email)
• Think beyond your LMS—learning can happen anywhere
• Call it a pilot if you want to try something new without pushback

Episode highlights

[00:01:00] – Why learning needs a marketing mindset

[00:10:00] – Why digital body language matters for L&D too

[00:13:00] – The mistake of buying tools before building strategy

[00:16:00] – Personas vs. demographics and how to create them

[00:18:00] – The training that failed because of a 64K connection

[00:21:00] – Behaviour change starts with meaning, not more info

[00:24:00] – Thinking beyond LMS: the electric vehicle expo story

[00:27:00] – Using triggers like clickbait (ethically!) in learning

[00:30:00] – How to get buy-in for new ideas: “yes, and…”

[00:32:00] – Common resistance from L&D purists and how to respond

[00:34:00] – Why standing your ground takes time and confidence

[00:37:00] – Inspiration sources and real-world marketing examples

[00:41:00] – Bianca’s first learning crush: a situational leadership course

[00:43:00] – Mike’s least favourite myth: learning styles

We’d love your feedback!

What did you think of this episode? Do you apply any marketing ideas in your training design? Let us know via [email] or drop us a message on [LinkedIn].

📣 Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with fellow L&D pros who want to make learning actually work.

“Immersive learning is all about having these assumptions and putting them to the test.”

Michiel Hulsbergen, Founder @ DialogueTrainer

Episode 02 – Michiel Hulsbergen on Training Conversational Skills with Digital Avatars

In this second episode of the Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with psychologist and DialogueTrainer founder Michiel Hulsbergen. Together, they explore how conversation simulations can boost learning transfer, help professionals build real confidence, and make complex interpersonal skills more trainable and scalable.

💡 Spoiler alert: If you think your training is effective because learners feel confident, think again.

About Michiel

Michiel Hulsbergen is a psychologist with a background in business administration and decades of experience in conversation skills training. He started out as a training actor before founding DialogueTrainer, a company that creates simulation-based learning environments for soft skills. With over 20 years in the field and a decade focused on learning technologies, Michiel brings a rich perspective on the intersection of psychology, emotions, and technology-enhanced learning.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why Michiel thinks traditional text-based training can create false confidence

• How interactive simulations make learners more aware of complex interpersonal dynamics

• Why emotion and believability are essential ingredients in learning transfer

• How DialogueTrainer’s tools are used to support real-world leadership development

• The impact of avatar-based practice versus real-life role play

• The surprising power of immersive learning to surface implicit skills and emotional insight

Featured Simulation: Game-Changing Leadership

Roy and Michiel explore a live leadership simulation that helps managers improve coaching skills through realistic dialogue. The demo showcases:

• Building rapport and guiding conversations strategically

• Subtle emotional cues in avatar interactions

• Reflective decision-making in high-stakes leadership moments

Quick tips to apply right away

• Don’t just aim for confidence—aim for realistic confidence. Simulations can challenge learners’ assumptions and surface hidden gaps in their skills.

• Use emotion as a signal, not a distraction. Train learners to reflect on their emotional responses during conversations to better understand behaviour.

• Combine text and simulation. Reading builds understanding, but simulations provoke reflection and make learning stick.

• Start with practice, not theory. Use immersive scenarios to confront learners with realistic challenges before offering explanatory models.

• Design for reflection, not just performance. Include moments where learners pause, assess options, and predict outcomes.

• Role-play isn't dead—it's scalable. Use avatar-based role-play to create safe, repeatable practice environments that mimic real pressure.

Michiel’s sources of inspiration

• Keith Keating – The Trusted Learning Advisor

• Paul Ekman – Facial expression and emotion theory

• Lisa Feldman Barrett – Constructed emotion and behavioural science

• Nico Frijda – Emotions as promoters of interest

• Frans de Waal – Primate behaviour and social interaction

Want to learn more?

• Visit dialoguetrainer.com to explore the tools and research behind DialogueTrainer.

• Read The Trusted Learning Advisor by Keith Keating for a call to arms for modern L&D professionals.

• Look up Frans de Waal’s Chimpanzee Politics for behavioural insights with a smile.

We'd love your feedback!

What did you think of this episode? Share your thoughts or questions with us at [email protected] or tag us on LinkedIn.

Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with your fellow learning pioneers.

Episode 01 – Britt Brackenie on the 12 Levers of Transfer Effectiveness

In this very first episode of the renewed Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with Britt Brackenie—co-founder of Route12 and passionate advocate of practical learning transfer. Together, they explore what really makes training stick and how to create learning experiences that actually lead to behavioral change at work.

💡 Spoiler alert: It’s not just about what happens in the training itself.

About Britt

Britt Brackenie is a co-founder of Route12 and helps L&D professionals design impactful learning journeys. With a background in Human Resource Management and a fascination for creating meaningful experiences, Britt now focuses on improving training transfer based on research by Dr. Ina Weinbauer-Heidel.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• Why Britt once considered becoming a funeral coordinator (!)

• How the 12 levers of transfer effectiveness help L&D pros create more effective programs

• How to use the transfer card game to reflect on existing training

• Why clear transfer goals beat traditional learning objectives

• The role of managers and peers in successful transfer

• Small changes with big impact, like writing letters to managers

• Why “What’s your biggest takeaway?” might not be the best closing question

Episode highlights

• [00:01:00] – Why Roy loves the topic of transfer

• [00:05:00] – Britt’s “aha” moment that led to Route12

• [00:10:00] – What are transfer goals, and how do they differ from learning goals?

• [00:14:00] – Playing the transfer card game with a cybersecurity training case

• [00:35:00] – Can you ever cover all 12 levers in one training?

• [00:39:00] – Why a letter to the manager might work better than a letter to yourself

• [00:44:00] – Britt’s take on the most overrated L&D advice

Resources mentioned

• The 12 Levers of Learning Transfer – by Dr. Ina Weinbauer-Heidel

• Transfer Designer Certification

• Blog posts by Britt and Route12

• Britt’s LinkedIn

• Britt’s newsletter “Britt Leert”

Britt’s inspirations

• Julie Dirksen – blending learning science with behavioral science

• Lavinia Mehedintu (Offbeat) – thought leader in L&D curation

• Dr. Alaina Szlachta – specialist in evaluation and data-driven training improvement

Quick tips to apply right away

• Try ending your next training with transfer planning, not just reflection

• Get participants to write a letter to their manager with their key insights and next steps

• Involve managers before and after training with simple 15-min conversations

• Use transfer goals (not learning objectives!) to clarify desired behavior change

We’d love your feedback!

What did you think of the episode? Have a question for Roy or Britt? Share your thoughts via [email protected] or message us on LinkedIn.

📣 Don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with fellow L&D pros who care about making learning work.