For decades, the conversation around plant-based medicine has been clouded by stigma, misinformation, and regulatory roadblocks. But that’s starting to change.

Stuart Marsh—Chief Commercial Officer of Cannim and a key contributor to the groundbreaking docuseries High Science®—joins me to discuss how science, patient stories, and a shifting cultural landscape are transforming the way we think about full-spectrum health.

We talk about the synergistic effect vs. the entourage effect, the economic case for new treatment approaches (spoiler: it could save the NHS £12-15K per patient, per year), and why word-of-mouth is outpacing government messaging when it comes to education.

Stuart explains how a 90-year-old in a retirement home might be more open to new therapies than your local regulator, the challenges of navigating strict advertising laws, and why the research-backed approach is the only way to move forward.

Also in this episode:

— The real meaning of full-spectrum medicine (and why it’s not just about THC or CBD percentages)— Why big pharma is struggling to adapt to individualised, plant-based solutions.— How the TGA’s heavy-handed regulations make it nearly impossible for providers to educate patients.— The ripple effect of healthcare choices—on families, communities, and economies.— My own experience of navigating a broken system as a patient with endometriosis—and what I wish I had known sooner.

It’s a conversation about science, policy, and the power of patient-led change—and it’s one you won’t want to miss.

EPISODE LINKS

High Science® | S1 E4 - Medical: Big Pharma Alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P5o5jS2INc

Cannim's website: https://cannim.com/

Stuart's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-marsh-503a762/

Learn more about the Endocannabinoid System

SHOW UPDATES

Since recording this episode at the start of January - Cannareviews has returned!

Founder Steven Ng shared this update with us:

'After a few months of difficulty, Canna Reviews is live again for patients to continue educating themselves about alternative medicines. Patients can keep having proactive discussions with their health care practitioners armed with a bit more knowledge and supported by their community. Canna Reviews has worked with the TGA to understand the regulatory requirements of such a patient focused platform and is glad to be back. The Canna Reviews you know and love is the same as before bar a few minor restrictions and changes. It's had a fresh design update and most information is still available except for pages on how to access doctors/clinics. Patients now have to validate their accounts before gaining access. We look forward to continuing to support everyone!'

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Kel Myers: I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound. Today, I'm joined by Stuart Marsh, Chief Commercial Officer at Cannim, and a passionate advocate for innovation in healthcare. As a key contributor to the groundbreaking new doco series, High Science, which explores the evolving role of cannabis in healthcare, Stu and his team are leading the way in this field.

Together we discussed how HIGH SCIENCE is breaking down stigmas surrounding cannabis through relatable education, storytelling and humour.

The importance of ongoing research in shaping perceptions and building trust in this emerging field, and why listening to patients experiences is key to evolving healthcare and delivering real world impact. Stay with us.

Now, if there's one thing British expats in Australia would love to ask each other when they meet, it's where you're from.

And sure enough, after a quick sound check.

Yeah, you sound fine. You sound great. Do I sound okay?

[00:00:55] Stuart Marsh: You sound very northern.

[00:00:58] Kel Myers: Yes, yeah, it's not left me at all.

[00:01:01] Stuart Marsh: Where are you from?

[00:01:02] Kel Myers: Originally from, yeah, the North West. So, I grew up just outside of, between like Preston and Bolton.

[00:01:09] Stuart Marsh: Oh, yeah.

[00:01:10] Kel Myers: Yeah, yeah, and then lived in Manchester, like after uni.

[00:01:13] Stuart Marsh: How long have you been here?

[00:01:15] Kel Myers: I've been here for 12 years. So yeah, the accent hasn't shifted at all. It's it's here to stay I think.

[00:01:21] Stuart Marsh: I know that feeling.

[00:01:22] Kel Myers: Yeah, you sound great. Obviously you're from the Northern Hemisphere as well, Stu.

[00:01:26] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, yeah. I'm from, I'm from the opposite end of the country to you. I'm from Royal Tunbridge Wells originally.

Um, yeah, but I've been here 20 years, so it's funny. I had two reactions from my friends to, to the, uh, High Science episode. One was just people taking the piss out of me for one second of me wearing a hairnet and the other, which is nice of them, you know, and then the other one was my English friends going, Oh, you sound so Australian.

To which I replied, I have lived here for 20 years.

[00:02:00] Kel Myers: Yeah,

[00:02:01] Stuart Marsh: yeah,

[00:02:02] Kel Myers: yeah, that's it.

Thanks for joining me Stu.. And welcome to Phoenix Sound.

Talking about medical cannabis, it's such a fascinating topic to explore and it's one that I feel, has kind of found me in a way. One of my earlier guests Sam Costa, she's a nurse practitioner and she's launched an app for women's health called CHARLI and she said to me something quite insightful.

She's like, where you start isn't often where you end up and I guess in our journies that's been literally the case. I'm so happy to be, having these conversations with people like yourself and I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Kylie O'Brien about the women's health study that Cannim is doing and exploring whether medical cannabis can help alleviate period pain, which is an amazing thing to be exploring and an area that, is so under resourced and underfunded. So it was really such a delightful chat with her.

She was great and you guys are like breaking new ground, aren't you? Medcan is transforming the way we approach healthcare. It's such an exciting time, isn't it?

[00:03:02] Stuart Marsh: Well, I think it's really interesting from a women's point of view as well, women's health point of view, because what we know about the endocannabinoid system is that the second highest number of receptors is actually in the female reproductive system, and so for women, I think it's certainly a new and novel way to approach some of the traditional issues that they've had that modern science has not been able to resolve for them.

[00:03:27] Kel Myers: That's definitely something that I've experienced in my own patient journey with endometriosis, severe endometriosis, and my partner has endo and chronic pelvic pain. So it's been quite the journey for us in terms of understanding the science. And I know Cannim's focus a lot around the science of the products and the quality and it's interesting it's a rabbit hole, like, we continue to go down, to be honest there's always something to kind of learn and know, and I think that the overarching thing for us is just to know that, with more traditional big pharma medications, like opioids, that are focused on masking the pain, the Med Can is focused on modulating the pain and making sure that, it's manageable and has genuine therapeutic benefits that these pills just don't have.

We are at, an interesting, juncture are we, you know, in healthcare and obviously you are the Chief Commercial Officer. You're the one like juggling all of this I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on managing the complexities of all of this and all these regions frameworks and everything's evolving in different countries at different paces so, how does that impact the way that you communicate the benefits of the medicine and What challenges do you face like say here in Australia when it comes to like walking the line of adhering to the TGA guidelines whilst ensuring that patients and clinicians understand the value of medicinal cannabis?

[00:04:49] Stuart Marsh: Yeah it's an interesting conundrum to be in really.

We often talk about kind of going to the first part of your point, it's such a nascent industry. We often talk about, you know, we're driving a car down a road that is being built as we drive, right? And we've got an end destination that we want to get to, but we might have to take a few detours and, you know, side roads and interesting places to get to where, where we need to be.

And that's the whole industry. And I think some people can navigate that effectively, and other companies find that very, very difficult, you know, to have a set idea. And if they don't get where they're going, then they really struggle. So I think dealing in a, an entirely new industries, you know, certainly an interesting challenge from a communications point of view, as you rightly said, I mean, you go to California and you can say entirely different things to what you can say here in Australia, but it still comes down to the fact that you know, we're dealing with medicine and we're dealing with patient health and you, you can't be flippant about that. You, you can't, you have to be very, very conscious of not making any kind of claims that are not fully substantiated, and I think that's something we're very, very conscious of and that's why I have a bit of sympathy, really, for what the TGA are doing in Australia, because, you know, there's a lot of excitement and there's a lot of talk about, you know, they should be building the industry and helping us get bigger.

That's not their job. Their job isn't to make an industry be there or not be there. Their job is to look after patient health and patient welfare. There have been some well reported incidences where patients probably have not been looked after the way they should have been. People are just with people just chasing, you know, some easy money.

And I think it's fundamentally important that we recognise the need to, you know to what's the right phrase to, to, to just be very mindful of that and be careful about what we say, how we say it, when we say it, and that, to be honest, is why we're diving deeply into research, because I think the only way we're going to be able to change government point of view lawmaker point of view is with evidence and with solid proper evidence.

And so that's, you know, let's yes, let's go out and help as many patients as we can as quickly as we can, but let's make sure we're gathering feedback and data along the way that will allow us to, to benefit more people by then being able to communicate effectively.

[00:07:21] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going to ask you how important you think ongoing research is in shaping, reshaping, if you will, public perceptions as a legitimate treatment and yeah, as you said, it's, it's really important.

[00:07:34] Stuart Marsh: Well, I think there's two, there's two sides to reshaping it.

One is people communicating their lived experiences.

And another is the research, right? And I think different people will change their minds about these things for one of those two reasons. So it's funny, you know, we were talking earlier about how we kind of ended up in this space. My background is alcohol.

I spent 25 years in the booze industry, right? On brands like Stella and XXXX and Yellow Tail and Jim Beam and the like. I don't have a medical background whatsoever. And I was excited by medical cannabis because I'm an innovator and to be at the ground floor of this exciting new thing that it was clearly inevitable, was really exciting for me.

And, and I'd never used cannabis before I joined this company, like not even at uni, right? I didn't even have a Bill Clinton experience where I didn't inhale. So if you ask my friends, who is the least likely person to be involved in a medical cannabis company and promoting it around the world, they would all be pointing at me and my, my experience was changed by, you know, I'm talking to patients who have had life changing impacts, and that's what I love about what we're able to do on the HIGH SCIENCE show, is that we're actually able to go out and interview people who are often the last people you would expect to be the people using and endorsing medical cannabis. And you listen to their stories and they're heartbreaking and, and the hope and the the just fundamental change in quality of lifestyle that they have by embracing something that they traditionally feared is incredible.

And I think we have to shout that from the rooftops. In conjunction with explaining to people why it works and demonstrating, you know, it's not just people going, Hey, it works for me. It's like, yes, it works for me. And here's why and how, and here's the proof that it does it. And I think if you can come from those two angles, you'll probably optimise the number of people that you can influence and reach.

[00:09:41] Kel Myers: Yeah that makes a lot of sense and just for our listeners that might not know about High Science. So, not only is Stu the CCO of Cannim, he's also a TV star. So, yeah, the High Science TV series that's created by the Emmy award winning producer David McKillop.

So, he's the genius behind like, Ice Road Truckers, which I love, and Deadliest Catch

it's on YouTube. I'll include it in the show notes so everyone can watch it for free. And Stu was the only international guest to be featured in the show. So there's an episode, it's episode Four - Medical: Big Pharma Alternative is the title of that. What was it like, Stu? Is that your first time being on on like a TV show?

[00:10:21] Stuart Marsh: Well, I was once an extra in an episode of Married With Children, but my first time being front of centre of the camera. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just blow my own trumpet a little bit.

[00:10:36] Kel Myers: On the LinkedIn, you know.

[00:10:37] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, exactly. It was in and, and they went and filmed in England. Once they did a, they did three episodes of the Bundys Do England anyway.

But HIGH SCIENCE was an incredible journey. We've been involved with those guys for something like four years. You know, COVID got in the way, a lot of things, and you can't fly around the world and film an international TV show when, when you can't fly, right.

Yeah. So it's been, it's been something that's been in the making for a while. We, we first met the other executive producer who's a guy called Ed. Mclair About four years ago, and his vision is to use that that communication tool to help break down the stigma around medical cannabis again, he's someone that has found relief using cannabis.

I know he's he's his mom uses it for relief as well. And so he, he wanted to really be an advocate and, you know, to his credit, he managed to bring you know, Dave on board and we ended up with this incredible show which I think is, again, is groundbreaking, you know it's on YouTube because the only way to be able to tell the story that they wanted to tell without networks censoring it effectively was to be on YouTube.

And I think the response has been incredible. So, so yeah, it's a, it's a privilege to be part of it. Cannim is the only international company that are in the show. And I'm hoping that season two, you'll get to see a lot more of the stuff that we've shot in Europe and in Jamaica, and hopefully we'll come and do some stuff down here in Australia as well.

[00:12:06] Kel Myers: It's such a great example of tackling the stigma surrounding cannabis and demonstrating, its scientific credibility through great storytelling and humour. There's so much humour in there and genuine care to bring these outdated stigmas to an end through, like, education and entertainment.

It's just such a beautiful fusion. Like you said, that two pronged approach. We need both, don't we? Yeah.

[00:12:28] Stuart Marsh: And that's what their vision always was. And, you know, they always say to me, Stu, if it's not entertaining, people won't watch it and you won't get any message across. So you have to have that balance between humour, science, you know, heartbreaking stories and, and, and what you know, David McKillop has proven himself in the past to be his own master storyteller, right? So, you know, Ice Road Truckers, Deadliest Catch and the like,, you know, they know how to make this thing entertaining and the reaction has been wonderful. And I'm really excited to see that continue to grow and give, give the industry a tool to communicate with the world effectively.

[00:13:05] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. It really does kind of bring to light the idea of the benefits of full spectrum cannabis and that's something I'd love to have a chat about because, It's coming up a lot in wellness circles but a lot of people I don't think really know what that means.

So I'd love if you could educate people on what that means and why it's so important patients get the full benefits of the plant, not just one thing.

[00:13:30] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. I mean, that's a good way of putting it is full benefits.

Probably the, I mean, again, no scientist, I'm an alcohol marketeer, right?

So full spectrum to me just means you're getting the whole of the plant rather than an isolated section of the plant.

What we know and professor Lumiere Hanouche is one of the guys credited with discovering anandamide, which is the endo cannabinoid or cannabinoid that the body creates often referred to as the runner's high and the like.

He's actually on our advisory board. Our brand and our study is named in his honour and one of the things that he always talks about is the synergistic effect. A lot of people call it the entourage effect, but he calls it the synergistic effect. 'cause the entourage effect is kind of the other cannabinoids and terpenes boosting up one of those elements.

But what he says is no, it's all of them working together in unity.

That actually is what's giving your body the benefits that you need, and if you just look for potency, if you just go, Hey, I need a 25 percent indica, it's going to be entirely different outcomes to a different, you know, 25 percent indica.

I actually, this is where my booze background helps. I often refer to it as, as, you know, kind of people think they like red wine, right? And so a lot of people, they do. Yeah. I like red wine. And so they just drink red wine. But as you learn more, you discover that there's different types of red wine and then you discover that there's actually a whole load of whether it comes from this region or that region actually makes a fundamental difference and then you learned actually the soil it was growing in makes a fundamental difference.

It's very similar with the different strains of cannabis so you might try, I don't know, Blue Dream or Black Triangle and go oh that didn't really have the effect I was looking for but it might be because it didn't have the the right build up of the full spectrum effects of the minor cannabinoids and terpenes that are actually going to optimise the care for you..

And that's why it's important to have so many. And that's why I think it's a challenge, challenging area for big pharma, because it's a plant that needs that variety for people to really discover the best effects. And then the other thing, Kel, sorry, I'll add to that is I think we're in an era now of the re emergence of traditional medicines.

So I think if you look at, you know, plant based medicines, not just cannabis, but you know, people are looking at psilocybin and the like, you look at Chinese herbal medicines, we're moving into an era in the world where Full spectrum idea is important. It's more important than just an isolate.

[00:16:11] Kel Myers: Yeah, that's so true. It really is. Even things like supplements, like I take curcumin every day, which is just a natural anti-inflammatory and Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just, you know, you just get it online. So yeah, it's, it's a good point. There's a lot of,

[00:16:27] Stuart Marsh: you're right to point out vitamins, you know, you start thinking about how you get vitamins.

Stop taking a. vitamin thing that just does one thing and understand how do you get it the way that nature intended for you to get it through a an appropriate mix of kind of plant based foods and the like. So I think there's going to be a huge re emergence in that whole industry. I think that's where we're headed.

And cannabis is really driving that.

[00:16:52] Kel Myers: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was going to ask you what trends you think are going to shape the future of the industry over the next few years. I was going to I was like, to be honest, I feel like everything in the world is moving at such a quick pace. kind of unpredictable pace at five years.

I don't know about you, but that feels like a long way away.

[00:17:12] Stuart Marsh: Well, I started this journey about five and a half years ago is when I joined Cannim.. And at the time I was making big, bold predictions that CBD would be legal in the UK, in Australia, sorry. And you know the legalisation would happen quickly across the world.

And actually when you look at it, Our world isn't that different to the world from a cannabis point of view isn't all that different to the to where it was five years ago. You know, France has done a trial, but they haven't really moved further with it. Germany's talked about legalisation, but they've kind of hidden that in the closet a little bit and done it in a strange way.

No other countries in Europe have really gone full on medical. Asia hasn't taken any steps closer. So I think you're right. I think Probably 5 to 10 years is the kind of time frame that we need for, for fundamental change. And again, it comes back to the proof. Lawmakers won't change, won't change unless they have confidence that it's safe and effective.

And, and that's, again, that comes back to why we're, we're doing that. I don't think you can go and knock on Japan's door and go, Hey, you should really allow your we can help you have an aging population and this, this really helps for aging people have a great sleep and wake up without pain.

But if you haven't got the proof that is the traditional form of proof that they require, they're just going to ignore you and listen to the stigmas that they've held for, you know, a hundred years.

[00:18:37] Kel Myers: True, true. And when it comes to that cohort as well of elderly people, say like 80 plus, like my Nana, she's 90 and she's probably one of the most tech savvy people like you'll ever meet, no joke, like she's got WhatsApp, but all the apps, like, she's, she's like, no worries, I can do that.

 And she's been asking me about CBD.

They're open minded to it. But also, like she said to me, she's in her nursing home literally educating the other people about it because they don't have mobile phones like she does. And it's like, how do we get the education to that cohort who aren't online?

And like you said, could really benefit from it.

[00:19:14] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. And that's where the word of mouth is fundamental, right? I had a similar experience just yesterday. My parents are in a retirement village and she called me yesterday, my mum, and put the manager of the retirement village on the phone because, you know, she'd watched the episode and went, Oh, hang on.

There's three or four people here that could benefit. How do I help them? So it's amazing. And it's just, you know, that's just how that, I think. How it works, there's a massive effect of one person telling many because one person, you know, especially when you're within you know, if you have endometriosis, you probably are in a chat group with many other people who have endometriosis.

If anyone finds something that works, they sure tell everybody else as quickly as possible. Right?

[00:20:04] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It feels like almost a duty of care. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:20:09] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. And that's where this, you know, kind of circling back to a question you asked me earlier about communication challenges within Australia.

That's where I think the TGA's approach is a bit heavy handed because if people are looking for help, We cannot communicate with them at the moment. We can't, you know, if they go on a Google search, we can't have the word cannabis on our website in Australia. Our clinic can't use the word cannabis or plant based medicines.

And so, If you are someone who is desperately looking for help, how on earth do you find the right help? And how do you actually get to people who are caring and trying to do the right thing instead of people who are just trying to flout the rules and go, well, screw it. I'll use the word cannabis until I'm shut down.

Yeah. Which of those two do you actually want your grandma to go to?

[00:21:04] Kel Myers: Yeah. Exactly. To be honest, I ask myself this question all the time. I'm always thinking of ways we can kind of problem solve this because it's just, yeah, it feels unfair and unjust. that so many patients aren't aware or people aren't aware that this is available to them.

And then you get there, like you said, you know, there's people that can be like nefarious characters who patients are vulnerable to because the industry is so opaque and so ambiguous because of the nature of sitting in that kind of, like purgatory, if you will. That it's just, it's just so difficult.

I had my own experiences for nearly two years of having a provider that basically was taking a piss, there's no other way to put it. Selling things way above the RRP. I was completely unaware. And it was kind of like a Plato's Cave situation where it's like, you don't know what you don't know.

And it's easy for someone to say, oh well you can go somewhere else, but I Also, you don't know what you don't know, so you're trusting these people, they're in the industry, and I'll just share with, with the listeners that, I don't know whether you remember this, Stu, but I actually reached out to Cannim after this situation had happened, because one of the reasons why I actually left this provider was because he wouldn't provide me with one of Cannim products.

Oh, okay. That says a lot, like the balanced oil, the Lumia balanced oil, I found Effective for my endometriosis symptoms and they were trying to substitute other ones that they had like, you know They were getting like obviously kickbacks from and I was there that you could go anywhere else until one day I was like, I just need to Google it and figure it out.

Quickly became apparent that this product was available. It was just being kept from me. So, you know, it's difficult as a patient to navigate all that and still keep going when to be honest, it's so much easier to just go to the doctor and get, you know, opioids basically.

[00:22:59] Stuart Marsh: It's nuts.

I

mean, there's so much to unpack in that.

So to me, I think, just allow us, it's okay, I accept that we can't push out advertising about medical cannabis, right? Get that. I think I understand that perfectly well, but if people are looking, allow us to communicate with people who are looking. So just to let us put the facts or what we do or, you know on our website, just so people can discover and not get trapped into that kind of experience that you talked about just there.

So I think that's a simple solution about the experience that you just talked about. I, you know, we, we have our own clinic here in Australia, we would never block anybody from taking something that they wanted just because we would rather they took our product.

Would we rather took our product? Yes. But our doctors don't operate that way.

 If we care for people in the right way, we will do well by doing good. If we try and force people onto our product, then we, you know, just ethically I can't get my head around that, and I run the clinics, so, so that's not something that we do.

[00:24:11] Kel Myers: I think a lot about equity and how important it is to treat people as individuals that even though you might have a specific condition and there's some general like rules and themes, it's really important as well to listen to the individual patient and what they're trying to communicate, especially when we're trying to gather information like we're in that early stage of we need to know as much as possible.

So knowledge is powerful, you know, and

[00:24:33] Stuart Marsh: it's a two way street in that, because you're right. Can. Our doctors need to know what works for certain conditions so they can guide people backwards. Right. And again, that's what, with the point of our research is the research is going to allow our doctors to be able to go with doctors across the country, across the world to go, Oh, Hey, you're, you know, this type of demographic suffering from this particular condition.

What we generally find is that this this product or works best for, for people like you. And we all react differently. You know, it's, it's an, it's an interesting, an interesting science behind that, but it's true. And you need to allow people to give people the space to try different things, to optimise their care.

And that's why you can't lock people into where you take this or nothing. Cause it doesn't work. That's not how, it's not how the plant works.

[00:25:19] Kel Myers: Yeah, that's it. And it's such an, I guess like, it's like the plant grows. It's like this journey for us is organic. It's, it's like we're just trying to learn and grow and evolve just, just like, like the plant does.

And yeah, we can only do that if we just keep, you know, feeding the ground and also getting rid of the weeds. If I'm honest.

[00:25:38] Stuart Marsh: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:25:40] Kel Myers: Yeah. So what do you think, Stu, in terms of like moving forward, what do you think are like the most important changes that we need to see in the industry, whether it's like awareness, knowledge, like what, what would you say, like the top three things that we need to like shift out of this grey?

area,

[00:25:59] Stuart Marsh: I think I've probably covered two of them already. So what one is obviously awareness. And I think that's a word of mouth job. It is, it is a word of mouth job of people telling their lived experiences to others suffering from a similar situation to, to get them out of that. You know, we had 100 years of prohibition, right?

Effectively you know, we've all, we've all watched South Park. We all know 'drugs are bad' but you know, opioids are worse and we're dishing those out left, right and centre..

They cause genuine harm to people. Which is openly recognised, right? There's an opioid epidemic that kills 200,000 people plus a year.

No one has ever died of a cannabis overdose. So, you know, we're, we're focusing on the wrong drugs are bad here. So we need to, we need to be able to allow people to discover that and understand that for themselves. And then we need to give them the confidence and the reassurance that this is a very proper and real medical discipline, I think is probably a good way of describing it, which is what we're trying to do with the research, obviously, but also our approach to clinics and making sure that, you know, it's not just a you know free fall grab in the green, in the greenwash kind of space.

And then I think, you know, we, we need the third element is that we need to start changing hearts and minds. Leadership level, let's say, so government, government bodies you know, insurance companies you know, it's not cheap. It's not cheap to be on medical cannabis.

You know, but they'll pay for the opioids, but they won't pay for this. Don't make any sense.

We need the, we need the kind of industry. We need the wheels around the whole industry to start recognising that this is real, it's effective. It's not going to go anywhere. And it's only going to get, get bigger.

So that they make it easier for people to get the the help and the medication that they need and deserve. And I, and actually for High Science, I, Interviewed a doctor in Jersey as you do a few years ago. And I'd interviewed his patient who'd, who'd had a number of epileptic fits and you know, had transformed his life with cannabis.

And anyway, I was talking to the doctor and, one of the conversations that we had was I had this aha moment that medical cannabis must save the government money.

So he said, his view was that the average patient on medical cannabis saves the British NHS £12,000 - £15,000 A year.. Because this, this example that he, the guy that I interviewed every quarter, roughly, he had to get an ambulance to hospital.

He'd be in hospital for two weeks.

He was on medication supplied by the government, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He'd been once in a year since he'd been on medical cannabis. So all of that cost to the taxpayer suddenly disappeared.

[00:28:59] Kel Myers: Yes! Yeah, that's, that's so profound, Jay, because I've actually written a, I've not put it out yet, but I've been writing a piece about essentially a night, basically, when my partner, who has had, like, eight endosurgeries in the same amount of years, but she's not had any for, like, Two years now since she's been on MedCan.

[00:29:20] Stuart Marsh: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Kel Myers: We have had so many trips to the hospital over the years. You can imagine, you know, and all the rest of it. And I've essentially told a story about how THC like saved her that night. And from literally vaping a car, she was able to stay home and not get the ambulance. And then that put me on the train of thinking of like, how much does it actually cost?

And it costs, I think, twelve hundred dollars. Aussie dollars to get picked up and taken. So yeah, yeah. You can see how quickly and then

[00:29:52] Stuart Marsh: multiply that out by population of 27 million in Australia, 70, 70 ish million in the UK. That's that stuff that you and I are all paying for, right? Do you want to pay taxes?

I'm happy to pay taxes. I think it's the right thing to do. Let's divert that into other forms of healthcare or let's make it more affordable. Let's make it an affordable option for people who cannot afford it right now. You know, there's lots of things that we could be doing. So these are the kinds of stories that I think we need to start telling, but also making sure get amplified and that's why I pulled a leadership level, right?

Because I'm an insurance company can save money if they get people on medical cannabis. It's a no brainer, right? Let's have those conversations. Let's do the trials that prove it. And then let's roll those programs out. And I think you'll just find this snowball effect that will, that will eventually lead to a global acceptance that this is a healthcare option that can benefit so many people and just fundamentally change quality of life.

Yeah. So many. And just to go back to my example of the guy that I'd spoke to in Jersey when I interviewed him, I made sure his wife was in the, was it, was being interviewed at the same time. And she was the most powerful storyteller more so than him, right? He's this rough, tough kind of, you know, working class 60 year old guy.

Right. And you know, again, not someone you'd expect to be using medical cannabis. And he told his story beautifully, but, but. I asked her what the impact was on the family and she burst into tears because he had epileptic fits so often. Like every day she couldn't leave the house and they had a a son a couple of his age, but he would have been like, you know, early teenagers.

And if she went shopping, he had to, the son had to stay with the dad. And because somebody had to watch him all the time. And now that he's, he's not free, but now he's significantly reduced risk, they can go out. And she said to me, she looked at me, she looked at me and just said, I've got, I've got my husband back.

I've got my family back and it's, you know, for years they, they'd suffered together as a family. So the quality of life wasn't just about him. It was about his wife and his child. And, and, and again, you know, we all, we often talk about the impact purely on the patient. And we shouldn't be measuring just that we should be measuring the impact on the family unit.

And actually, you know, to get, to get, you know, take the upper step. That means that she can go back out to work, which is good for the economy, right? It's good for everybody.

[00:32:40] Kel Myers: Yeah. Incredible ripple effect

[00:32:42] Stuart Marsh: yeah. Exactly that. Exactly that. Exactly that.

And, and I'm sure you know, if you speak to most people who are using medical cannabis to transform their lives, they'll have similar stories.

I mean, we, the whole industry started with epileptic children, right. And we all know the effect it's had on them. But you, you know, if your, if your parents of an epileptic child severely, you, you can't go out and work, you can't have time together. as a, you know, as a couple, so if you're, if you've suddenly got confidence that your child is well and healthy, you can live.

Yeah. And, and everyone deserves that.

[00:33:20] Kel Myers: Absolutely. And that's it. It's just a beacon of hope to think that you can actually live again and have a better quality of life. And actually, yeah, I mean, I remember times like when I was first diagnosed in like 2020. So that was like March. It was the day before the pandemic, like the shutdown.

So not the best timing, let's say, but but yeah, to think where I'm at now, nearly five years after that major surgery and to get to this point of functionality where, I can go out walking every day, sometimes twice a day, that I can even do this podcast to be honest. It's essential to it. I couldn't have done it without medical cannabis.

There's no way. Because it's, it's healing. It's not just, yeah, masking the pain and putting you in a zombie state. And I think It's really important to have empathy, you know, clinicians, especially for patients who are, say, taking opioids because to realize that it's not their fault, that's what gets dished out, and it's off the go, you know, it's just like McDonald's, to be honest you don't really get a say in the matter, and I know many, many people that don't like that experience, they would prefer not to be on it and, yeah, they wouldn't choose it for themselves if they knew what else was available.

Bye bye. So now we've got a word

[00:34:35] Stuart Marsh: of mouth, which you're doing. And thank you for so Rawley sharing your personal experiences because it fundamentally changes the opinions of, of people who might be fearful or doubtful. So, so it's thanks to the good work of people like yourself. The people will start kind of considering it it's research to give people the confidence that, you know, there is science behind it which is nascent, but he's coming and then it's about using those together to drive fundamental change in a leadership level you know, across, across the world. So, you know, just three small things. We're just going to change the world. That's

[00:35:20] Kel Myers: all. No big deal. Yeah. No big audacious goals here. Yeah. Thank you for saying that, you know, and thank you for giving me a safe space to be able to share that with you because I wouldn't have done otherwise.

So yeah, thank you for saying that. And yeah, just just to wrap things up. A lot of our listeners are professional women. So to those, you know, People, what are three things you'd like to leave them with about MedCan that could change their view on it or help them feel more confident about exploring it?

[00:35:55] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, it's a great question.

I think if they're listening to this, they've probably already got past the, the fear, right? I, I, I, I would, I would suggest that probably the, the solutions that are being thrown around at the moment are No, no safer a lot of the time than the alternatives that you may be considering.

And the best way to do it and you know, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't a genius concept from can him or myself, right? Every medical cannabis company should and does and should tell you this is start low and go slow. So come into the company, come into it, find Something that is an entry level. CBD often will have a wonderful effect for lots and lots of people.

It's not intoxicating and, and you can function fully in the workplace just, just simply by taking CBD, which is sold in the petrol station in the UK and North America and the whole of Europe, right? It's just here that it's a prescription. Well, here in Asia, it's a prescription medication. So here's something that might help.

So it's a safe and simple way in. And then if you're finding that it's helping but not fully relieving, take the, you know, just take a step up. You know, just take some THC in the evening. You don't have to smoke it. You don't have to vape it. You could, there are oils. The people take as you rightly pointed out and there's lots of other more innovative solutions coming in terms of, you know edibles and tablets and the whole thing.

Start with a low dose of THC and just take it up. If you get to a point where you're going, Oh, this is actually not the feeling that I want. You can just step it back down again. It's, it's, it's not like a tablet that is exactly what it is and you take it or you don't. It's something that you can bring up and you can take down.

You can, it's not physically addictive. So if you want to have a break, have a break. And I think that's, that's a great way to come in. Yeah. And to your point earlier, actually, if you're finding that you feel a bit bullied maybe by the provider that you're with call another one, go to another one and ask them, you probably learned a few questions that you can ask by that point, call them up, ask them, ask them some of those questions.

And if they feel like they're more suited to your needs, jump ship. Most of them won't charge you the initial consult fee if you're transferring from one to another so, and ask them that if they, if they will say, hang on a second, you know, I want to be seen as a returning patient, not, not, not a fresh one because your, your health and wellbeing and, and care should be number one.

Yeah. So, yeah. So hunt around. If you feel like these, whoever you're with isn't working for you, switch. There are plenty of people out there.

[00:38:52] Kel Myers: That's good advice. Be proactive about it. You know, it's your health. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:58] Stuart Marsh: And there are resources online. Obviously, there's plenty of podcasts.

None better than this one obviously, Kel. hunt around a bit on Reddit, then you'll find lots of people talking about their experiences. And You know and that's one way of at least finding out what other people are doing, whether it's right or wrong for you is a whole other point, but at least you can hear other people's point of views.

[00:39:20] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Reddit's a great place to get some transparency as a patient. Yeah.

[00:39:26] Stuart Marsh: Unfortunately, in Australia, it's the only way.

[00:39:31] Kel Myers: It is actually at the moment, especially since Cannareviews was kind of suspended. That's made it more difficult for patients to have a more complex experience, if you will with the plant.

Like I'm a bit of a geek, so I like going out with rabbit holes of the terpene profiles and all that. And, and, and actually it's, it is very important. It really should make a difference. It's not just the advantage of the flower. So, yeah.

[00:39:56] Stuart Marsh: It's a real shame that that's happened. I've spoken to them.

My understanding is that they have a plan for coming back. I sincerely hope they do . There's a similar resource in the UK and everyone that I've spoken to just says it's invaluable for understanding how they do this the right way. You know, safely.

And as we talked about earlier, there isn't a tool for that in Australia.

So something like Cannareviews is fundamental to being able to help people.

[00:40:22] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. It's very empowering because how else can you go to a conversation with a practitioner and feel like an equal partner if you don't know even the RRP or something. You're just completely blind.

[00:40:34] Stuart Marsh: I mean, we're just treating people like children, aren't we?

Absolutely. I mean, it's a bit ridiculous. I've got teenage daughters, right? And, and you have to accept that they're going to go out and do things at some point in their life, rather than just bury your head in the sand and go, no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't exist. I mean, we have those conversations around sex, right?

You know, it's healthier to have the conversation so that people understand you know, and, and I think we should probably take that kind of mature approach into the way we approach cannabis.

[00:41:02] Kel Myers: Yeah, I completely agree. Thanks so much, Stu. I hope you feel better.

[00:41:07] Stuart Marsh: Kel, thank you. Really appreciate you having me on. The great time has flown, so I appreciate that.

And best of luck to you and your partner with your ongoing journey with endometriosis. And you know, hopefully we can reach a lot of people and inspire people to seek the right kind of help for them. So well done.

[00:41:22] Kel Myers: And that, dear listeners, brings to a close episode 12 of Phoenix Sound. Thanks to everyone who's been tuning in so far, we really appreciate it. I think the two words that really stuck out for me this time with Stu were ripple effect, illness, sickness, chronic disease doesn't just impact the patient, it impacts entire families, communities and society at large.

It was really great to explore different patient stories with Stu and find out how transformative plant based medicine has been in their lives. And also to look at the bigger picture view of how alternative treatments can possibly impact. individuals for the better, and not just them, but also the economy.

And if given a chance to fully actualise in people's lives without judgment or stigma, possibly the world. For more information on the High Science doco series series and the topics and ideas Stu and I discussed today, head to the show notes. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound.

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