Let’s talk about loneliness.

Not the quiet moments of solitude we choose, but the aching isolation that burrows into your bones, amplifying every twinge of chronic pain and whispering you’re unseen.

Growing up in a cult like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I felt this keenly.

Every morning at primary school, I endured the pain of my classmates leaving for assembly while I sat alone in the classroom, rubbing my shins feverishly to ease excruciating agony and generate warmth in the wide-open space of manufactured desolation.

Some teachers left the light, others didn’t.

For the 1 in 10 women living with endometriosis, this kind of pain is all too familiar a companion [1]

When your life has been profoundly shaped by medical gaslighting and systemic neglect, like it has for so many of us living with chronic pain, loneliness is more than a feeling—it’s a daily battle that defines our resilience as warriors.

Now imagine one act of kindness—a single gesture that says, “I see you.”

It’s not just a moment; it’s a spark that ripples outward, creating connection and love that can ease the weight of pain and alienation.

Enter Mansi: The Ripple Maker.

With 1 in 4 adults reporting loneliness [2], Mansi’s movement is a beacon of hope.

For many years now, Mansi has been handing out handmade tokens of appreciation to those society overlooks—baristas, janitors, mammogram technicians.

These aren’t mere trinkets; they’re heartfelt works of art, crafted to say, “You matter.”

For women with chronic pain, who often feel invisible in a world that dismisses our struggles, Mansi’s movement is a lifeline—a reminder that one kind act can shatter isolation and foster healing.

In Season 2, Episode 3 of Phoenix Sound, we sat down to chat about how her Radical Acts of Kindness are breaking the cycle of loneliness and sparking connection with people all over the world.

As a solo podcaster pouring my heart into this while navigating endo pain, this conversation feels like a love letter to every endo warrior, every spoonie, every woman who’s felt the sting of dismissal or the flicker of hope that connection is possible.

Here’s why this episode will move you:

When she travelled to Australia and New Zealand last December, Mansi stepped away from Instagram and Facebook to be present with her family. With over 10,000 followers, she expected someone to notice her absence—yet only two people reached out. This echoes Cal Newport’s Digital Minimalism, which argues that social media offers shallow interactions, not true belonging [3].

For women with chronic pain, who often rely on online communities, this is a wake-up call: real connection happens when humans connect without machine-led mediation and Mansi’s story shows us the central role creativity plays in forming an authentic connection with others, but perhaps most importantly first, with ourselves.

Her tokens restore dignity to those pushed to the margins, like a mammogram technician who kept one for years, pulling it out to remind herself “I matter” during tough moments.

For women with chronic pain, this is a reminder: creativity can soothe emotional and physical wounds.

Loneliness and chronic pain feed each other, but Mansi’s acts of kindness disrupt this cycle and during our chat she shares some truly remarkable stories about the healing impact she’s been able to create with people over the years through her intentional art making practice.

For women, Mansi’s work is a call to reclaim our space through creativity. In a world that expects us to endure pain silently, carving out time to create isn’t being selfish—it’s self-first – putting our needs ahead of everyone else’s.

Mansi’s tokens, which take hours to craft, are demonstrating firsthand that love is a verb, a doing word.

I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.

Here’s a roadmap to guide you through Phoenix Sound Season 2, Episode 3 with Mansi, The Ripple Maker (33:26):

· 2:10: Mansi shares her kindness movement, giving tokens to unseen workers and embracing Substack as The Ripple Maker.

· 4:47: Mansi on ditching social media, unnoticed by 10,000+ followers, echoing Digital Minimalism’s call for real connection.

· 7:17: Mansi and Kel discuss restoring human decency by seeing beyond labels like “janitor” for true connection.

· 8:29: The mammogram story: Mansi’s token uplifts a healthcare technician, cherished for years as a symbol of worth.

· 13:15: Mansi explains how creativity helps women reclaim space, rippling healing to families and communities.

· 15:47: Kel shares poetry as an endo pain outlet; Mansi suggests nature as a simple creative healing practice.

· 28:45: Mansi reveals no token rejections in 7 years, urging listeners to overcome fear of looking foolish.

· 32:26: Kel closes, urging endo warriors to try one kind act and share ripples on X/Substack (@phoenixsoundpod)

References:

* [1] For the 1 in 10 women living with endometriosis

* Source: World Health Organisation (WHO). (2021). Endometriosis Fact Sheet.

* Link: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/endometriosis

* [2] With 1 in 4 adults reporting loneliness

* Source: Cigna. (2018). U.S. Loneliness Index.

* Link: https://legacy.cigna.com/static/www-cigna-com/docs/about-us/newsroom/studies-and-reports/combatting-loneliness/loneliness-survey-2018-full-report.pdf

* [3] Cal Newport’s Digital Minimalism

* Source: Newport, C. (2019). Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World.

* Link: https://www.calnewport.com/books/digital-minimalism/

Let’s talk about pain.

Not the kind you can shake off with a paracetamol and a good night’s sleep, but the kind that burrows deep, rewires your life, and dares you to keep going.

If you’re a woman, chances are you know this pain intimately.

Studies show that over 30% of people worldwide live with chronic pain, but women bear the brunt - up to 34.6% of us report it, compared to 27.1% of men [1].

And when it’s severe, we’re 37% more likely to feel its full weight, with 19.8% of women rating their pain as severe versus 14.4% of men [2].

These aren’t just statistics - they’re indicators of the daily reality for millions of us, a silent epidemic of suffering that’s been ignored for too long.

Now, layer on multiple sclerosis (MS), a disease that disproportionately strikes women—over 2.9 million people globally live with MS, and in Australia alone, that number exceeds 33,000, with women outnumbering men 3 to 1 [3].

Up to 80% of those with MS experience chronic pain at some point, a grinding “companion” to a condition that’s already a thief of energy, mobility, and certainty [4].

I’ve spent the past six years navigating this landscape, and I know you probably have too or someone you love is working their way through this maze.

That’s why I’m so excited to share S2 EP2 of Phoenix Sound, “Chronic Pain, MS and Empowerment with the amazing Chrissy Symeonakis, the fierce founder of Creative Little Soul who has turned her pain into a purpose, building a business that gives women their dignity back. This truth has been echoing in my mind ever since:

This isn’t just a conversation; it’s a battle cry for every woman who’s ever been dismissed, diminished, or told to “just deal with it.”

Chrissy’s story is a masterclass in fierce self-advocacy.

When her MS diagnosis hit at 30, she didn’t wait for permission to rewrite her life.

She set non-negotiable boundaries—like refusing summer meetings to manage her heat sensitivity—and built a business model that prioritises chronic illness, empowering her team and clients to reclaim their agency.

In a world where women with chronic pain are often gaslit by healthcare systems especially those living with episodic disabilities like MS or lupus, Chrissy’s unapologetic advocacy is a reminder:

If we don’t stand up and fight for ourselves, who will?

But what does it mean to fight authentically and with integrity?

Chrissy’s approach to marketing her business is a masterclass in both.

She doesn’t hide her struggles—she shares them, building a brand that resonates because it’s real.

In an era where 85% of consumers say authenticity drives their loyalty, Chrissy’s transparency isn’t just brave; it’s brilliant [5].

She’s not selling a polished facade; she’s offering a lifeline to women who see themselves in her story.

And she’s not afraid to explore alternative therapies to manage her pain either.

From medical cannabis to massage and setting her own work rhythm, Chrissy’s journey echoes a growing trend: 57.1% of people with MS have tried complementary therapies, seeking holistic relief where conventional medicine often falls short [6].

Her story challenges us to rethink what healing looks like—maybe it’s not just in a pill bottle, but in the courage to explore something new.

What struck me most, though, was Chrissy’s generosity and passion for mentorship.

During our conversation she says, “I just have so much time for people starting out,” and you can feel the truth in that through all the incredible work she does.

She’s mentored university students, hired interns (one now works for her full-time), and created a culture at Creative Little Soul that lifts others up.

A 2023 study found that 87% of mentees report increased confidence and career growth, and for women with chronic illnesses, that support can be a game-changer [7].

Chrissy knows that when women inspire women, we don’t just survive—we succeed.

This episode is for every endo warrior, ever spoonie, every woman who’s ever felt the weight of chronic pain, the sting of dismissal, or the flicker of hope that there’s a way through.

This conversation is a love letter to say: we see you.

Chrissy’s words are a call to action—let’s share our stories, lift each other up, and fight for the care we deserve!

We’d love to hear from you—what’s one way you’re finding strength through adversity?

Reply in the comments - let’s keep this fire burning, together.

Keep rising,

Kel

Here’s a roadmap to guide you through the episode:

- **5:00**: Chrissy takes us inside the nightclub scene—her life before MS reshaped everything.

- **5:55**: The power of mentorship—why encouragement can change lives.

- **9:16**: How clear communication and assertion can help us come unstuck, even on our darkest days.

- **13:30**: Hitting “shit town” and rising stronger—Chrissy’s raw take on resilience.

- **22:48**: Adapting to life with MS, from setting boundaries to finding what works.

- **28:07**: Building a business that gives women their dignity back—a mission born from pain.

- **48:10**: “We have so many stories that need to be shared, and women inspiring women is such a powerful thing”—Chrissy’s closing words that’ll stay with you.

References:

[1] Mills, S.E.E., et al. (2019). Chronic pain: a review of its epidemiology and associated factors in population-based studies. *British Journal of Anaesthesia*.

[2] National Center for Health Statistics. (2021). Chronic Pain Among Adults — United States, 2019. CDC Data Brief No. 390.

[3] MS International Federation. (2023). *Atlas of MS, 3rd Edition*

[4] Marck, C.H., et al. (2017). Pain in People with Multiple Sclerosis: Associations with Modifiable Lifestyle Factors, Fatigue, Depression, Anxiety, and Mental Health Quality of Life. *Frontiers in Neurology*.

[5] Stackla (Nosto). (2023). Consumer Behavior Report.

[6] Skovgaard, L., et al. (2012). Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine among People with Multiple Sclerosis in the Nordic Countries. Autoimmune Diseases.

[7] MentorcliQ. (2023). Mentorship Program Impact Report.

S2 EP2 Chrissy Symeonakis

[00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Now, before we start, I want to let you know that this episode includes a reference to suicide, which some might find tough to hear. Now, if you need support, you can find a helpline in your country through find a helpline.com.

Supported by the International Association for Suicide Prevention. in today's episode, I sat down with Chrissy Symeonakis founder and managing director of the award-winning agency, creative Little Soul for a conversation that left me truly inspired.

When Chrissy found out that she had MS at the age of 30, her world turned upside down.

Living with chronic pain is one of the worst forms of adversity a person can face. It's a daily battle that tests every ounce of your strength, and not everyone feels equipped to keep fighting. But Chrissy faced her health battle's head on, transforming her pain into purpose by building a business that not only supports their health, but also empowers others to rise above their own suffering too.

Mixing raw innovation with a bold belief that success starts with believing in yourself, Chrissy is a fierce, chronic illness advocate now helping others find their voice through adversity. We talk about how having a get shit done mindset drives her work, how alternative medicine has helped her heal, and why self-advocacy and setting boundaries are essential to healing, for those of us living with chronic pain, stay with us.

Hi, Chrissy. How you going?

[00:01:31] Chrissy Symeonakis: Good. How you going?

[00:01:32] Kel: Yeah, I'm good. Lovely to hear your voice.

[00:01:35] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, you too.

[00:01:35] Kel: Thanks for joining me on Phoenix Sound, its so great to have you here. So glad that we finally get to chat with each other. We've exchanged a few emails and I just felt an instant connection to you and your work and your journey, which is just truly inspiring.

So for our listeners, at 30 Chrissy, While deeply immersed in hospitality marketing and events faced a life altering MS diagnosis and this pivotal moment led to Chrissy reevaluating her career and lifestyle and ultimately inspired. You to establish Creative Little Soul in 2013 and over the past 12 years, your agency's flourished evolving from a solo endeavour into a thriving digital agency with a really diverse team of creatives, all passionate professionals.

And you know, it really takes a rare kind of resilience, I think and vision to not only like pivot in the face of that kind of adversity, but to also build something as well that empowers others along the way. That's just, you know, extraordinary really.

[00:02:37] Chrissy Symeonakis: Thank you.

[00:02:39] Kel: And in terms of, of people that you've empowered I'm including myself in that equation too. So that ripple effect continues to go out and your work is helping so many businesses find their voice as well. And your ability to blend creative with strategy, I think is a real testament to, to your passion and expertise.

So welcome to Phoenix Sound Chrissy, it's lovely to have you here.

Thank you. And thank you for that intro. That was really nice.

You're welcome. My partner and I were researching for the interview and she was actually so excited. I, I said to her, do you wanna interview Chrissy? Because she was so empowered by, by your work and your story and bless.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to know what originally drew you into the creative service industry, and how has that journey evolved over the past two decades?

You know, technology's changed so much in that period of time and the way that we, you know, find information and, use information so I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

[00:03:36] Chrissy Symeonakis: So I was always a really creative kid.

So, you know, my teacher one of my school teachers that I'm still connected with actually told me that she used to love reading my journals and creative stories at school. Because, you know, instead of filling one page, I probably feel about 20.

So I just was inspired and really at a young age, my Mum encouraged me to write and I always wanted to be a writer and a journalist.

I grew up in regional South Australia, so my auntie was the head of the community services division at the council. So she got me involved in a lot of like local council initiatives, youth week events. There was a youth newspaper and I was the editor at like 16 of that and did some writing courses.

So just from a really young age, I, I just had a lot of inspiration and people pushing me into the creative sphere. I type so heavy. Everyone laughs at me because I learned to write on a typewriter, so I'm quite heavy handed.

[00:04:31] Kel: Right.

[00:04:32] Chrissy Symeonakis: And then, and then yeah, always was kind of that person that anyone, if they needed something written or, you know, assignments proofread at high school like I was the go-to.

And then, yeah, I. Just figured out that, you know, I wanted to do something in media, did some work experience at high school and radio at the newspaper, and then just got a column in my small little town newspaper, writing about music. And then, I guess, you know, moved to the city, worked for a big nightclub, did their press and PR and marketing and yeah.

[00:05:07] Kel: What was that, what was that like for a nightclub? Yeah.

[00:05:10] Chrissy Symeonakis: Amazing.

[00:05:11] Kel: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:05:12] Chrissy Symeonakis: So I was this fresh faced country girl who moved three hours away to the big city. It was a wild time. I'm actually writing a book at the moment because I worked in King's Cross in Sydney.

I worked in Adelaide in some nightclubs and all over the world. And I'm actually writing a book at the moment um, which will be. Yeah, later in the year about all the crazy stuff I saw in the nightclub scene.

[00:05:33] Kel: Oh, brilliant. You'll have to send us a copy and come back to have a chat about that.

[00:05:39] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, for sure.

[00:05:40] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I'm just, I was wondering as well, like, how important do you think encouragement is you know, you say you had a lot of people supporting you, kind of like, you know, channeling your energy in that direction where you were already passionate.

How important is it to have that encouragement, you know from a young age to, to kind of spur on, do what we want to

[00:05:58] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah - huge. . I'm massive when it comes to mentorship. I actually have a relationship with a great friend of mine, her name's Lauren. And she's a university lecturer. She's teaches creative industries and every semester she partners me with a student who has to do some work experience in a creative industry. And I've had two of her interns now, and one of them actually works for me full time now. So, you know, she did that one day a week to two days a week, to three days a week. And I just, I just have so much time for people starting out because, you know, without myself having those mentors along the way, and I still have mentors now, it's just great to have somebody that, you know, can point you down the right path who can answer your questions, and just somebody that you can have a bit of a sounding board conversation to as well.

[00:06:49] Kel: Yeah. It's like having someone to kind of walk that road with you and a companion down, like a dark, you know, maybe dangerous street when, when you're starting out.

It's really important to have that person there that can guide you for sure.

[00:07:02] Chrissy Symeonakis: Absolutely.

[00:07:02] Kel: So you've got a signature get shit done attitude, which I absolutely love. That's just, it's amazing. Uhhuh. Yeah. And I, I feel like I need that on a cup, like on a, on a tea mug now, after

[00:07:12] Chrissy Symeonakis: I'm gonna have to do some merch.

[00:07:13] Kel: Yes totally do some merch its amazing. Yeah. Where does that come from and how's that shaped your career? That just idea of get it done, get it finished, you know?

[00:07:23] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. So I come from a Greek Australian background. So my grandparents immigrated to Australia in the sixties. When they came to Australia, they left their family and everything that they knew behind them.

My dad was two years old and his elder sister was, I think maybe six. And I've always, been around, like my, my family had as I was growing up a huge fruit farm and they still have vineyards now. And just from a young age, like, you know, we were probably four or five, six, we were in the shed. We were out there helping, you know, pick or cut you know, there'd be grapes we'd help.

Not that I loved it. Mm-hmm. But I always just saw my grandparents. And my, my grandfather just passed a few days ago and my grandma a year ago, but like up until their eighties they were still out there helping my dad. So we've always been around this really strong work ethic. And even my dad, you know, while we were growing up, had three jobs just to give us all this opportunity that we have.

And I think as well, when I got my chronic illness and my disability diagnosed, one of the things that really stuck with me was that the neurologist at the time said that if I don't make some changes within my lifestyle and diet and health, I was gonna fast my track myself to a wheelchair. And at 30 years old, I was like, that's not the trajectory I want my life to take.

Yeah. So for me, it kind of just kind of gave me a bit of a wake up call and just said, you know what? Life's too short. And you really don't know what the future's going to foresee, so you just need to pull your finger out and not wait for opportunities, but create those opportunities for yourself and that's where that get shit done mantra comes from. Yeah. You know, I'm not sunshine and rainbows. If I send an email, I am probably gonna be very direct and to the point. Yeah. And that direct and to the point approach actually is what a lot of my clients need because they're a little bit stuck as well.

[00:09:18] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. That assertion. Yeah, definitely. And, and just that clarity as well that gets provided when you are kind of to the point and you're not like fluffing around, you know, everyone gets to be on the same page quickly that way. And yeah, I must say like all our interactions, I felt so safe with you, Chrissy, and I've said that to my partner.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, because not everyone is kind to be honest, so it's. It's always lovely when, when people are, it's refreshing. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and sorry to hear about the loss of, of your grandparent the other day. That's, that's a tremendous loss. And, you know, thank you. You talk about that intergenerational kind of connection where you're seeing different generations that you're all connected to all working hard and facing such adversity.

And like, I know for myself. Like my grandparents like survived like the Nazis and there was like, bomb dropped on my Nana's house as a kid. When you grow up with people that have survived, things like that, you kind of like, you know, you learn to put things into perspective a bit more about like absolutely what, you know, struggle is and challenges and you, you learn to kind of just get through things.

[00:10:27] Chrissy Symeonakis: Absolutely

[00:10:27] Kel: what would you say is like the biggest challenge you've faced in life and how did you overcome it?

Yeah, so I would say at 2019, so at the end of 2019, I. I had my really good friend, Paul Strange. He was a really successful promoter and event producer actually, and one of my mentors committed suicide.

And I'd only spoken to him a few days before and I had no idea and that kind of really shocked me and shook me. So there was Paul's death, there were the Australian bush fires. And then Covid happened and I have OCD diagnosed and all of those events just compiling actually forced me and my little brain to just have a nervous breakdown.

I just couldn't process. Yeah, and you know, I just remember. You know, all my clients calling me about covid and you know, there's all that uncertainty and business closure and my brain just just said, nah, can't do this. So I had to call my GP and then have like a mental health assessment and it was you know, a, a, a medication adjustment 'cause I have depression and OCD.

So there was a medication adjust there, but it made me then seek out the services of a therapist and you know, I'd always heard everyone else was talking about therapy and, and you know what, that was the, I call it a breakthrough now as opposed to a breakdown because just being able to then go and get that help and talk about childhood trauma and then trauma around my MS diagnose, like I now see a therapist on a monthly basis and it's more proactive as opposed as reactive. 'cause I know ever want to get to that point again. And I just, I buy therapy appointments for my family and my friends. I think we should all do it. It's just the best thing to help us.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Therapy is so important and, and being proactive. Like, like you said, I, it's funny you say that 'cause I had a therapist literally say that to me last October. That's the note she left me on. She said, be proactive like three times in a row at the end of the call. This game changer, it really is to just have that in mind.

Like, what can I actually control and. You know? Yeah. 'cause as you well know, living with, with illnesses and when it's complex as well, you know, there's so many challenges that we face that just everyday people would never really have to consider, you know? For sure. Yeah. Right. Like, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, really sorry for, for your loss there too.

And, and thank you. Would've been a shock. Of course.

And you're right. It's a case of how do we go through these things? And it can break us. But yeah, I've got a quote here.

I overcame myself, the sufferer. I carried my own ashes to the mountains. I invented a brighter flame for myself.

It's a Nietzsche quote, and I've got it like above my desk. My partner like wrote it out in a nice little card with a picture on it.

[00:13:27] Chrissy Symeonakis: love that.

[00:13:28] Kel: Because it's like, you know, sometimes we do have to become like the ashes. We do have to like go all the way down, like to shit town. Yeah. You know what I mean? To like, to come Absolutely. Like, you know, hopefully wiser and stronger from it.

Maybe a few more scars.

[00:13:43] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. And anytime anything happens I actually like, have the skills now to say, what am I meant to learn from this? Or, what am I meant to take from this? And I just kind of sit in that for a little while. And, you know, I do get a message back, which I, I, I.

Is my intuition or God or spirit, like whatever you wanna call it. But every time now I'm just like, cool. You know what, what's the lesson I need to learn? How's it gonna help me moving forward? Okay, cool. Let's, and, and I'm very much a quick processor. Like I'm a big believer that you have to spend time in your feelings.

Mm-hmm. Otherwise you just internalise them and then bottle 'em up. And then, and I'm a big believer that, you know, by us holding onto stuff, that's where the body gets a chronic illness or cancer or something like we're ruminating and you know, it's not good for us. So I like to process and I, I do a 20 minute rule and so I will be sad, mad, glad, you know, those big feelings.

Or I'll have a cry for 20 minutes and it's an ugly snotty cry. And then I'll go Cool. You've processed that, now let's move on and do the rest of your day. And I can have those 20 minute breaks as often as I need them, but I just can't get stuck in bed for five days and, you know, go into deep depression because it's not proactive and it's not productive or good for me.

Mm.

[00:15:02] Kel: Yeah. I hear ya. And having like a practice in place where it's like 20 minutes and you know what you're kind of getting and it's like, I love that. That's such a, that's such a great idea. Like I've never set like a timer on it, but I do sometimes have an ugly cry in the shower in the morning.

And I had one this because I woke up in quite a lot of pain. I'm actually get my, I replaced in a couple of months. So I'm in a difficult position where it's. Increased my quite significantly and I was probably in the shower. Oh no. But it's good to just get it out and it's nice to get the hot shower on you and then you get out and you just feel relieved and it's over and you can just kind of move on with the day, you know?

Yeah, for sure. You say you don't wanna keep it in in the body, like that's when things get really problematic. When we hold and we do, we hold onto so much these days. Mm-hmm. It's, it's yeah, it's, it's good to have an ugly cry or just say, no, I'm feeling pissed off at the moment, mate. You know.

Yeah, absolutely

do that.

Then pretend that everything's all rosy, like all the time, because it's never that for anyone. Is it really? Let's be honest.

[00:16:08] Chrissy Symeonakis: No, not at all. No chronic illness or not like, you know, and I, and I feel like, you know a lot of people don't feel like they have permission to feel their feelings. And like, especially when, you know, grief is involved, like.

And, you know, the other day was my, my Ms. Adversary. I call it my MS diagnosis anniversary. And leading up to it, like those feelings came back up again. 'cause I had some, you know, misdiagnosis issues and then some, you know, medical, I don't know, mal malpractice misconduct type stuff happened as well. So all of these feelings of anger and rage came back up.

Mm. And I was just like, Ooh, yeah, we don't wanna go that. And I, and I dealt with it for like, you know, 10, 15 minutes, but I'm like, yeah, but look how far you've come and look how far you've evolved. So don't focus on the anger and rage. Just move through it real quickly.

[00:17:03] Kel: Yeah, I think you, you're giving people a masterclass in what it looks like to be self-aware, Chrissy, you know, to be able to notice these things and just slow it down.

I think that's everything, isn't it? It's not, there's no like wrong emotion. Like it's okay to feel angry. It's a, it's a normal reaction when there's injustice and there's a lot of injustice in this world, especially for women. I mean, that's you gas. It's not the way, it's, so it's like we are okay. Mm. But you know, we might feel angry or we might feel sad or frustrated and, and it's okay to, to feel those things, but I think the problem lies sometimes when people don't have that self-awareness and yeah.

How you worked to cultivate that?

[00:17:46] Chrissy Symeonakis: So it hasn't been easy. I'm really lucky. My aunt, my dad's younger sister, she's a cool auntie Trudy throughout my probably like teenage years and stuff like that. She was a therapist and, and still does a lot of like holistic psychology stuff.

So from a pretty young age, I was taught to look at meditation. Kind of sitting in your feelings. Hypnosis? I do, so I do hypnosis once a month and work with a really cool lady and just a lot of reading and, you know, trying to better myself. But the hypnosis is a game changer for me. I see a woman once a month.

We do an hour. You know, my dad triggers me, but we're both very similar in personality. So whenever I'm planning a trip home I go and see her so that I have some coping mechanisms and just a reminder that I do love my dad and if he does trigger me, just, you know, what I might do with those feelings or, you know, away way for me to change the conversation or a way for me to cope.

And then, you know, I. Just had a skip this session the other day, and obviously my business is going really well. I'm starting to implement some new structures and strategies, seek out some new clients. So I know from my, my past self that limiting selfie managing self-sabotage and communication can struggle for me.

So we proactively went in to work on those things. So yeah, that's a little bit of how I've, I've come to play with that.

[00:19:21] Kel: I've never heard anyone chat about hypnotherapy before. I'm not really that familiar with it. For, for anyone that, that, that isn't who's like me, who's uneducated, what would like a typical session look like?

[00:19:33] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. So what we do is before we have the session, we just identify anything that we would like to work on. So like. Example, the limiting self beliefs. And then what we'll do is my hypnotherapist asks me where I would like to go today. So it's like a little bit of a vacation. Hmm. So my ideal place to go is by the beach.

So I like the, the water. So she'll basically tell me to close my eyes. And then she just starts talking about, you know, you, you're going into a trance. You are walking down some steps and you're getting. You know, a bit more relaxed, more relaxed, more relaxed, and then you go into hypnotherapy. So the entire time you're conscious.

But what the point of the session is, is to not talk to your, your conscious self, but your self-conscious self. So the actual part of the brain that makes the decisions and kind of is in the background and then she just makes light. Instructions and you know, you coming into a busy time of the year you know, you are strong, you are powerful.

You are driven. So, you know, just remember anytime if you have these thoughts of. Doubting yourself. Remember that you are, you know, a goddess or whatever, and it's just light suggestion. I feel amazing when we have, and, and it's funny, she said to me the other day, whenever we pick the topics that we want to talk about, so say for example, I have three things that she's gonna discuss.

And we've still got like 15 minutes left of the session, I'll fall asleep. She goes, yeah, you always fall asleep because your brain goes, all right, we've done the work now. Yeah. And then it shuts down.

[00:21:09] Kel: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:21:11] Chrissy Symeonakis: But it's great. Like I've used her for grief after my grandmother died.

I dealt it with yeah, grief, sadness, guilt, like all these things. She's really helped me to work on.

[00:21:25] Kel: Wow. Yeah, that sounds really powerful, those affirmations. Mm-hmm. They really are. They're, they're so powerful for just like getting the brain on like the right track. I know for myself, like whenever I'm having a fly up on my, my partner is like, we'll, we'll say to each other and to ourselves, like, you're safe.

Like, so for I say that frequently, I'd be like, safe, you safe, it's okay. You know? So I don't, into massive fight or flight and just having those mantra can really just, yeah, get you back on the right track.

[00:21:55] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. And it's funny you mentioned fight or flight because I said to her on our session last week, I said, I feel like for the longest time I've been in, in a, a state of fight or flight and I just wanna sit and rest and digest for a little while.

And it's interesting, like I'm an emotional eater, like a comfort eater because my grandma. And the Greek culture, like so much of it is about food, but that's how they show that they love you. Yeah. So it's interesting. Since we've had this switch to rest and digest, I've noticed I've not been comfort eating at all and making healthier choices.

So we didn't do anything with that at all. That's just a byproduct of, of now switching into that mode, which I've noticed has been a bit of a thing.

[00:22:39] Kel: That's cool. Yeah that's powerful isn't it? That association, how it can just change, like we we live by the lake in Ballarat, and there's a farmer's market on every other Saturday like through Summer.

It's about 20 minute walk it's a nice little, little trek round the lake. And we were trying some of the fresh produce a few weeks ago, like the blueberries and stuff that have come in like straight from the local farms and they just tasted so amazing. And normally we go and get a couple of donuts from this van.

But the blueberries were that good that when we had the donut, we were like, it doesn't taste good. And when you start putting the right things in your body, it's funny how your body starts going, nah, I'm not really digging that chocolate. I used to eat like so much chocolate.

Yeah. But since having endo, I've had to really kind of cut down on sugar. But it's funny how your taste buds do just naturally adjust over time and Yeah.

[00:23:29] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:23:30] Kel: So on your website I was looking at last night, it says that there's no substitute for self-advocacy, which I, I love and wholeheartedly agree with.

And I was wondering how living with MS has influenced your approach to work and creativity and how you've had to maybe adapt your life.

[00:23:48] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, so when I started my business I was working for like a big, big hospitality group, but the toxicity was just crazy. Like it was a really bad place to work.

And looking back now, I'm like, why did we ever work there? It was, it was really bad. And so, you know, starting my own business was. You know, I never had plans of it being this big or having this many staff. Like I honestly was just creating something for myself so that if I had a flare up or a relapse, I could work from home.

That I could, I. Travel and see my family when I wanted. So, you know, and I was always, I was always very clear and transparent with people about my MS experience and how that looks for me. And, you know, in summer I'm affected by the heat, so I won't go to face-to-face meetings until like the weather comes around.

So I just set all these rules and this criteria and they were my non-negotiables. And if you didn't adhere or agree to them, well then I couldn't work with you. And most people were awesome and most people were still awesome. Like they'll call me if they know I'm unwell. They, if I'm in a hospital going for a treatment, they like, no, don't worry about it.

You know, you look after yourself first. So I feel like I've created this culture where. Chronic illness is at the forefront and we're not afraid to tell people about it. And what I know, what I notice that a lot is 'cause I'm a part of heaps of ms, like closed women groups on Facebook and different communities and a lot of people don't share their diagnosis and they're just not comfortable telling other people about it, even in their workplace. And I'm like, but look at the concessions that could be made for you. You know, you could have a hybrid model where you could work from home. It just was so, so foreign and, and probably a little bit sad to me that there are, there are people out there and a lot of women really that are just too scared to be vulnerable Yeah.

With their community or their friends for. Fear of persecution or exclusion. You know, a not a lot of people really understand chronic illness unless you have one. So I'm sure there's loads of people out there that get the whole, oh yeah, my friend's, my friend's, cousins, auntie has ms, and they're fine, or blah, blah, blah.

You know, any, all, all the chronic illness spoons know this. Yeah.

[00:26:15] Kel: Yeah,

[00:26:16] Chrissy Symeonakis: so for, so for me it was like, you know what, you're pretty vocal and you're pretty like, and my, my ethos across everything is just very direct. And not to sugarcoat anything and just to share my journey because it might inspire somebody else to share their story or they might just feel a little bit less alone.

So that's why I'm so vocal, I suppose.

[00:26:41] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. And that ripple effect that, that creates by you sharing your voice like you are today and, and all the times like we've been, yeah. We've been reading your blogs and we had such a lovely time going through your work. Thank you. So inspiring, Chrissy. And you're right, like women like us, we need to come out of like the shadows kind of thing and, and be at the forefront.

[00:27:01] Chrissy Symeonakis: 'cause we matter too. And we're not in fear of humans because we've got chronic pain. So, yeah, you know, we deserve the respect and dignity that everyone else has afforded that's working, you know, nine to five and running round every day. So I, it's just shame isn't there. I think around it. And, and, and I also understand why people feel like they can't be vulnerable, because sometimes you can't be, and when there's power differentials with health practitioners And some do take advantage, some are predatory, sadly. Yeah, it's, it's tough isn it to know, like, you know, to traverse the system and you know, if you find a good practitioner it's like, hold onto him, hug them tight. Absolutely. Birthday card, like, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Because some are are quite bad and yeah.

and I think as well, like I have a number of ladies that work for me.

[00:27:54] Chrissy Symeonakis: My team's completely female except for our web dev and we've got this amazing culture and some of my staff have chronic illness as well. And, and the biggest thing you know about creating my business and even working with clients and building community is about giving people their dignity back.

And so many people that I work with in a chronic with in the chronic illness and disability space, they don't wanna be on disability. They don't wanna be on the NDIS, but unfortunately these are their options. So, you know, when I meet a lot with people who have a chronic illness who might've been high performing executives, they've worked in an office before they just want their dignity back.

They just wanna be able to contribute and get off that, or supplement their income. And that's why I love to work with people with chronic illness 'cause we're like. What are your hobbies? What do you love to do? How can we monetize that? And then give you back that empowerment so you can step back into your, your, you know, creativity or you know, generating wealth for yourself.

Like let's look at what you're good at and let's help you.

[00:28:58] Kel: I love that. That's so beautiful. It's, it's, it's incredible the ecosystem that you've created, Chris. It's, it's really powerful and so heartwarming, I'm not gonna lie. It's, it's really lovely. Oh, thank you. It's gorgeous to hear this and, for Christie and I first connected for everyone listening I'd reached out to explore chatting to people about their stories of using alternative therapies. And I know for you that medical cannabis has been a part of your journey. And I was wondering how that's impacted your health, transformed your health and your wellbeing.

What been your experience with that?

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Now let's get back to Chrissy's insights. 

[00:30:26] Chrissy Symeonakis: Love it. So there was a lot of research in the US and in Europe that medical cannabis was great for people with MS to help with pain. I also have another nerve disorder called trigeminal neuralgia, which is like this weird, terrible face pain. And it's, they actually call it the suicide disease because the pain and.

The intensity of this nervous, like this nerve cluster is just so, so bad. It hurts. So what much? So I was taking like really high doses of Lyrica other pain medications to try and keep it at bay. I was seeing an osteo cranial osteopath, so that was helping, but the pain was always still there.

So just again, being part of one of these Facebook communities I saw that there was some people getting some cBD oil and CBD and THC bombs from a place in Nimbin, which was like not the medical route, but really the only route at that time. So, you know, I set my little envelope in with my money and they sent it back to me.

So I was kind of like using black market products for a little while, and then when medicinal cannabis was actually available, I booked a proper consultation. Okay. Had the consult with the doctor went through what I was looking for, and so we tried a, what was it? So there was a balm, some drops and oil and some flowers.

And then, so I did that and the first strain was fine, but like, I'd have to take quite a bit of it. I don't like to smoke it. It makes me cough. So my husband actually makes it into edibles for me. Yeah, he's a chef, so he makes me edibles out of, they're jelly, they're jellies. And yeah, I've actually, in 18 months, I've been able to take myself off of, the nerve blocking pain medication and probably haven't taken proper painkillers for this disorder in about 12 months. And I just manage with the CBD gummies and, you know, as you probably know, sometimes it's more, I probably haven't had them for about, I haven't had to use the gummies in about four weeks.

So now I can just maintain and utilise that. It's a strongest strain, like you have a consult. But yeah, I think it's amazing. Like to be able to switch out a pharmaceutical medication for something that's natural. Yeah, I highly, and I recommend it to lots of people, like obviously speak to your doctor.

I'm not a doctor and you know, check to see if there's would be any interactions with the medication you're on. Yeah. 'cause that's super important. If you have underlying mental health issues, it might not be for you, but I was able to tick all the right boxes and yeah, it's just great to know that I have it there as an option.

[00:33:10] Kel: Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah, I haven't tried the gummies. I've, I've tried magnesium gummies and I've found that they've been a lot more effective than just like taking a capsule. Yeah. And it tastes nice too, so Yeah. Yeah, like apple flavors, so that's nice. But yeah, a lot of people are using medical cannabis now for.

For chronic pain. I think it's like over 80% of the prescriptions are for chronic pain. So he shows you, doesn't it like one, like how big Farmers failed so many of the population because people alternative was working and, and just two, that it is effective and. And yeah, it's really changing life, so, yeah, it's good to hear.

[00:33:49] Chrissy Symeonakis: I really had to, I really had to argue with my neurologist when I, when it first come out.

[00:33:55] Kel: Okay. I

[00:33:55] Chrissy Symeonakis: was a avail. I was available here and I said, and my neuro is really good. Like I had five before I got to this guy, and he's awesome. And he really does listen to me and my recommendations and requests and I just said, Hey, I wanna try medicinal cannabis.

And he is like, yeah, there's still not the data. I said, no, there's not the data here in Australia.

[00:34:15] Kel: Mm,

[00:34:15] Chrissy Symeonakis: there is. There is substantial data in the Europe and the US and I'm part of MS communities and it works. And he is like, well, I'm not comfortable in prescribing that to you. And I was like, that's fine. So I just went to my gp, she gave me a referral to a dispensary and a doctor specific, and literally it was a 15 minute phone call. You know, went through my medical history, went through my, you know, medications and yeah, I had a script at the same day. So, yeah, sometimes if one doctor says no I feel like you've just gotta find the doctor that will give you what you need and find one who's actually gonna listen to you.

[00:34:53] Kel: Mm. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I had Amanda Blessing on the podcast last year. She's an executive coach for women in Melbourne. And she said like, you know, going into these kinds of scenarios, where is that power differential? You know, you've gotta try and.

Make sure that person's an equal partner or that they wanna be an equal partner with you. And one thing she said as well, which I thought was powerful, was that not just like, what do you want, but what are you not willing to accept? Yeah. And I thought that's a powerful thing too. And it ties in with what you were saying earlier around setting those boundaries and, and being clear about what you can and can't do.

Like, you know, you can't do, you know, meetings in summer because it's too hot. Yep. Letting people know. And the difference I make when we're all on the same page, you know.

[00:35:40] Chrissy Symeonakis: For sure, and I love that you talk about that power. Power as well in the equal playing field, because I refuse to call my doctor, professor or to call them like doctor this.

I call them by their first name and yeah. And they're like, I'm like, Hey, Brenna. Hey everyone. And they're like, my husband was weird about it. I go, no. How are they any better than me? I'm specialised in my area. They're specialised in their area. I said, you know, to me, they're just somebody that I'm outsourcing my health to, so I'm treating them as my equal.

Yeah. They've got an area of expertise somewhere else, but it doesn't make them any better or more superior to me. Mm-hmm. So I'm very adamant to call them by first name. Yeah.

[00:36:20] Kel: Same thing. Yeah. My, my partner's an RN and, and she, she's been used to it now, but at first she got, she was a bit uncomfortable that I'd just come out and, and call the doctor, like SHA or whatever.

I love that. I just, it just feels like I need to have them there, like on my level. Yeah. I can't be holding. Yeah. Agree. Yeah. I hear what you're saying. Yeah.

[00:36:40] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. Cool.

[00:36:41] Kel: Yeah. What's, what's one thing you wish that one, that people knew more about when it comes to living with a chronic pain condition that you don't think he's getting out there enough right now?

[00:36:51] Chrissy Symeonakis: Mm. I think that when you meet somebody with a chronic illness or chronic pain, don't try and compare your own pain to theirs. Like I know a lot of people will be like wanting to empathise, but the worst thing that somebody could say to me is 'oh yeah, I get headaches too', or, 'yeah, I have a sore back as well.'

Mm-hmm. Because that it's almost like a little bit condescending, like it's almost, it feels like a little bit dismissive and I. Get really shitty because you don't understand my pain levels. You don't understand that. While I might be here talking to you, I am probably gonna be in bed for the next two days and I'm gonna have to go for a massage now, and I'm gonna probably have to take pain meds like.

Just say, 'wow, that's really hard and that sounds terrible'. And, you know, say things that are a bit more supportive as opposed to being, making it about you to make you feel comfortable. Like, I feel like a lot of people do that. Or even ask your friends with, with chronic pain, or, 'Hey, what does, what does a pain day look like to you?'

Like, what's, what's a 10 for you? What does a 10 feel like?

[00:38:00] Kel: Mm.

[00:38:01] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, don't, you don't always have to have an answer. Like, I always you know, say like, don't say you are sorry, or I'm, you know, I say to my husband all the time, he, I might be upset, I might be in pain or whatever, and he's like. I'm really, that sucks.

Or I'm really sorry, but like, I want him to be mad with me sometimes

[00:38:21] Kel: and be like,

[00:38:21] Chrissy Symeonakis: yes. And yeah. And I'm like, I don't need you to like, be supportive. I just need you to be like, that's shit. And that's unfair. And that's, and you know, just for a few minutes, like, so yeah, say that to your friends and be like, you know what, it does suck that you have chronic pain.

And I can't even imagine what that feels like for you. But you know what? I know how strong you are. And what can I do to help you? And I feel like those words are better than, oh, that must suck, or, yeah, I get a headache too. I get a headache too. Or I have a sore back. Like they like triggering words for me.

I.

[00:38:56] Kel: Yeah. It's that like comparative suffering, isn't it, of like, yeah. Oh my God. You know, I remember growing up, like I, I grew up on like a counselor state, but like mm-hmm. My Mum would say things like, you know, you don't know what it's like. Look at those children in Ethiopia, and it's like, I can't get those kids from Ethiopia outta my head because it's.

Like, like, well, what can, what? That doesn't change the fact that like, we've not got enough. Mm-hmm. It doesn't, it doesn't help someone if you start, and also it's kind of like they're taking the stage. Oh me.

Yeah. I kind of feel like if you are struggling and you just, you need empathy in that moment, you just need to feel seen and heard. It's like you're kind of in the water and another person is like in the boat, and then by saying, me too, they're jumping out the boat. It's like you were in the boat and you were in a position to support.

You didn't need to jump out the boat and be swimming in the water with me now, because then it's like, well, yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's, it's hard. Yeah.

[00:39:56] Chrissy Symeonakis: That's a great analogy. That's a great way of explaining it as well.

[00:40:00] Kel: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, because it's real and it's different for everyone.

Like I'm a big believer in equity and you know, meeting people where they're at, like treating everyone equal as a human being, but not saying like, oh, you know, this worked for Endo for this person. Like I remember someone texting me. Suggesting I get hysterectomy. This is someone who I'd never met in real life.

So Wow. That's a massive overreach. For sure. But saying like, because I did and he's my wife now, and it's like, but it's not like that. It's not massive. Yeah. It's not a one size fits all situation. Chronic pain is really complex and its different. Absolutely. And how it, our lives, we need more understanding and more.

Space just to express ourselves, like you say, just a few minutes to saying, you know what? Bloody pissed off about that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I thought we could have a little chat, like finish on just chatting about like marketing and, and business. Yeah, sure. Business of creativity. 'cause many creatives do really struggle with, with self-promotion.

I know I'm, I'm one of them. I'm not really massively on social media. Like I quit Facebook and Instagram a few years ago 'cause I just found it quite overstimulating. So that was just like a, for me. But what advice would you give. To people, people in terms of marketing themselves authentically, because I can tell from chatting to you, Chrisy, like this is you, you know, this is who you're, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So thank you. You know, there's a lot of people wanna like project a certain thing and it might not be them at all, you know, and Yeah. I'm wondering advisor.

[00:41:41] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah, for sure. So I always tell everyone to build an email list. So platforms like Facebook and Instagram. The followers that U Mass or the network that U Mass actually belong to Facebook and Instagram.

So if they were to turn the platforms off tomorrow there'd be a lot of influencers or businesses that wouldn't have a way to communicate with their customers. True. So I always recommend people, I always recommend people build an email list and you could just have like a contact form on your website or you can go to Google Sheets and make your own, or like a MailChimp, something simple.

And then what you can do is you can send out newsletters. On a semi-regular basis or whenever something's coming up, and then those conversations are just like a letter to your friend. That's how I tell people to write them. Write 'em as if you're talking to one person. And over time that list will grow.

You know, I think I've got over 120,000 on my email list now, but like, if you look at my socials, I've probably got, you know, four or 5,000. But my database and my mailing list is where I generate most of my revenue, and then where I build community and conversation with people. Don't be on every single platform.

If it doesn't feel authentic to you, then you don't have to be there. I hate TikTok. I'm not about Snapchat, so I really just focus on the platforms that I engage on. You know, LinkedIn is really an undervalued tool. And if you are wanting to network or wanting to do collaborations I definitely would recommend LinkedIn.

And I think as well, my other pro tip would be. Sit down and map out your content. What is the message you wanna send as opposed to doing like content on an ad hoc, on the fly basis because it can be much more strategic and structure. You know what your goals are, what do you wanna achieve and what's the end game.

[00:43:31] Kel: Hmm. That's brilliant. Yeah, that's some really great tips there, Chrisy. Thanks. I've, I, I've written self down through our conversation for like two pages notes, so thank, thank you. Oh, yeah. I'm sure people get a lot from that because, you know, it does feel, or at least it seems to appear crowded. A lot of people talk about that, like, how can I stand out?

And it's not always the case of like, well just shout louder. You know? It's about, like you say, being strategic about the content and planning it out and the messaging. Writing to someone like they're a friend and that personalisation. What makes brand stand out to you?

[00:44:08] Chrissy Symeonakis: Consistency. Yeah, we do a lot of work for clients on branding. And it's really about, you know, going through and doing the hard stuff. Like we take people through this like process and we ask them questions like, you know, when you die, what do you wanna be remembered for? What's your legacy?

What's your ethos? Who are your ideal clients? What do they look like? So we flesh out all of this stuff and then, then comes the logo, then comes the content. But really it's at the core, you know, and I ask people to ask the, ask themselves these questions like, who's my ideal client? How much money do I wanna make?

What does this bring me? What do I want my business to afford me? Like, is it time, is it travel? Is it money to travel? Is it to pay off my home loan? Like, ask the deep questions and then everything else is secondary from that. But yeah, consistency, showing up and just building a community that loves you.

[00:45:12] Kel: That's amazing. You built so much already, Chrissy. I'm wondering what's next, what's on the horizon for the business? I know.

[00:45:19] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yeah. I'm, I'm a mad, I'm a mad woman. Everyone always laughs at me. My staff laugh at me because I have you know, I do a lot of like self work, so I'm like, I'll, you know, go somewhere and have a coffee or go for a walk and I come back inspired.

But. For me at the moment I have a project called Beyond the Mirror Ball, and this is the collection of stories of my career in the entertainment and club nightclub, festival sphere. I just saw so much crazy stuff, both my own stories and stories of my colleagues. So that'll be a book which is being written at the moment.

It'll be a podcast and then it will also be a club night, which I'll tour with DJs and stuff 'cause that's the land that I lived in for a while and still dabbling. So that's my project at the moment, but then also building Creative Little Soul into more regional Australia. I come from the country in South Australia.

I have a team member there, so I just noticed that there are a lot of women specifically in business that are those solo entrepreneurs Mumtrepreneurs, or solo traders, and they're just craving connection and community. So I'm setting up some grassroots networking events for people.

We're not trying to sell 'em anything. It's just come along, have an hour. I'll buy you a cup and just connect, like I really am big on helping people form connections and then collaborations. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a connector, so my staff always laugh at me 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, you know, something will come up.

And I'm like, oh, I know a guy for that, or I know a guy for this. And that, you know, it will be in the chat and something will come up and they're like, let me guess, you know a guy? I'm like, totally, I have five guys. So yeah, I'm very well, a networker and connector. So that's probably what's on my dance card for right now.

[00:47:10] Kel: That's amazing. I'm so excited about this book, Chrissy. I'm, I'm, I'm already like picked it. I can't, yeah. I can't wait. Yeah. Awesome.

[00:47:20] Chrissy Symeonakis: Yes. I'll send you a copy.

[00:47:21] Kel: Oh, wicked. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's gonna be cool. The podcast. Listen, people who wanna connect with your work, and I know many that are listening to this,

[00:47:31] Chrissy Symeonakis: yeah, so they can just find us at creativelittlesoul.com.Au creative Little Soul on all the socials. Otherwise you can find me Chrissy Symeonakis I know it's a big, long Greek name. But yeah, you can find me on my socials at chrissy dot sim for my personal one.

[00:47:47] Kel: Oh, that's amazing. I'm so glad you said your last name, Chrissy, because I was like, I'm gonna butcher that.

So I'm glad you just said it, so thank you. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you today and I'm so looking forward to sharing this conversation with the world. I think a lot of women will feel seen and heard from, from this and work so inspiring and all the best with everything in the future and I'm so glad we connected - thanks so much Chrissy.

[00:48:10] Chrissy Symeonakis: Thank you for having me, and thanks for facilitating these beautiful conversations with different women, you know? Oh, thank you. We, we have so many stories that need to be shared, and women, inspiring women is just such powerful thing. So yeah. Thank you. Thank you for hosting us and for having those discussions.

You're doing a great job, so thank you.

[00:48:29] Kel: And that dear listeners, brings to close my interview with Chrissy Symeonakis what a powerful conversation you know, three reflections for me. The first one being just, wow, Chrissy's pragmatism is so refreshing and her get. Shit done mantra coming from her Greek roots, an MS diagnosis really shows that even in our darkest moments, we've got choices.

And even on our worst days, we have the power to transform our breakdowns into breakthroughs by facing the reality of our situations and trusting that we've got the tools within us to overcome whatever life throws at us. I also love Chris's take on self-advocacy, especially setting those non-negotiable boundaries,

which is often a really hard lesson for anyone dealing with chronic pain to prioritise their own health but resilient people like Chrissy know that only by taking care of themselves are they able to truly help and serve others?

I had love to hear from you.

What are your thoughts on today's conversation and what boundaries are you setting to protect your time and energy?

Drop me a message or share your story in the comment section of the episode. I'd love to hear from you.

Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

"Percys had my soul, Percys had my soul!” – Percocet by Dave East & Araabmuzik

The opioid crisis didn’t just happen. It was designed.

For decades, marginalised communities across the world have been over-policed, over-prescribed, and systematically left to deal with the wreckage alone.

The war on drugs tore families apart—nowhere more visibly than in the U.S., where harsh sentencing laws and corporate-backed pharmaceutical lobbying continue to create cycles of addiction and incarceration. But this isn’t just an American problem.

From the UK to Australia, prohibitionist policies and economic disenfranchisement have given rise to powerful mythmaking in mainstream society. We were taught to fear cannabis—told it was a gateway drug, a danger, a threat. At the same time, we were conditioned to trust the pharmaceutical industry, despite its long history of profit-driven deception.

Prior generations were raised to revere the doctor—to see them as unquestionable authorities, the final word on life and death, sickness and health. Medicine was institutionalized, and with it, trust became doctrine. The idea that healing could come from outside the system—let alone from nature—was ridiculed, dismissed, even criminalized.

Generations have been raised on the belief that healing comes in the form of a pill, prescribed by a doctor who knows best. That discomfort should be masked, pain should be dulled, and symptoms—rather than root causes—should be managed indefinitely. The opioid epidemic, the rise of antidepressant dependency, and the explosion of chronic illness tell the story of where that thinking has led us.

But as we dislocate further from nature, we become sicker.

We now know the limitations of conventional treatment—as well as its incredible breakthroughs. This isn’t about upending modern medicine but expanding it. Integrative medicine isn’t a rejection of science; it’s a recognition that science itself must evolve. Expansive medicine considers the complexity of the human being—body, mind, and environment.

In The Fourth Turning, William Strauss and Neil Howe write:

“The myths that endure are those that illuminate the virtues (or vices) that successive generations see recurring in their own time.” (p.75)

We need to ask ourselves:

* What aren’t we willing to tolerate anymore?

* What don’t we want to see happen again?

* What won’t we put up with?

Right now, we have an opportunity to move beyond the binary of good vs evil by shining a light on truth over ideology, healing over profit, and possibility over fear.

Medicine is not a war.

Science is not a battleground of pharmaceuticals vs. nature, doctors vs. patients, or conventional vs. alternative.

It is, and always should be, an evolving pursuit of what works—what actually heals, empowers, and restores and what doesn’t.

What we’re witnessing right now is not just a shift in healthcare, it’s a reclamation of autonomy, knowledge, and connection.

We are not just patients. We are people entitled to actively participate in our own lives.

And we are rewriting the story.

From Season One to Season Two: A Metamorphosis

Hip-hop has always been the voice of the unheard. It tells the stories institutions try to bury—the consequences of failed systems, the weight of generational pain, the reality of survival when the odds are stacked against you.

This isn’t just about music. It’s about truth-telling in a world where narratives are controlled by those in power. When Dave East raps about his battle with oxycodone, he’s exposing what policymakers, pharmaceutical executives, and medical gatekeepers refuse to acknowledge: addiction isn’t just chemical. It’s systemic, cultural and generational.

Season One of Phoenix Sound was about exploration - a nomadic search for answers in a world where conventional medicine often fails those who need it most.

I sat down with people who weren’t afraid to challenge the status quo—people who’ve risked their reputations, careers, and livelihoods to speak the truth.

🔥 Amanda Blesing – A powerhouse in women’s leadership, Amanda showed us that breaking through isn’t about waiting for permission—it’s about demanding space.

🔥 Dr. Amy Carmichael – A doctor who lost everything for standing by her medical ethics. She taught us that like COVID-19, courage is also contagious.

🔥 Dr. Susie Alegre – An international human rights lawyer fighting for the freedom to think in an era of AI where surveillance and corporate control are normalised. She reminded us that autonomy and freedom start with the mind and that yes - humans do have rights.

These were people who didn’t just question the system—they stood against it, risking everything to speak truth to power. They weren’t just guests. They were signposts pointing toward something bigger.

The Architects of Transformation

This season, I’m speaking with people who don’t just navigate change—they ignite it.

Their work is disruptive, dynamic, and at times, dangerous. But they push forward because the alternative—staying silent—isn’t an option.

In the first episode of Season Two, I interviewed Mike Sassano, who, as CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, is pushing alternative medicine forward against a backdrop of institutional resistance. His company works with Cookies, a brand that’s deeply embedded in hip-hop culture, a reminder that cannabis isn’t just about medicine—it’s about identity, equity, and reclaiming freedom over our own healing.

We discussed:

🔥 The fight for a future where medicine is determined by science and patient need, not Big Pharma greed.

🔥 The vital role of education in the ongoing battle against misinformation.

🔥 What a truly integrative health system, where alternative medicine is accepted and accessible, looks like.

This is the metamorphosis.

🎧 Thanks for listening.

🔗 Watch Percocet:

Moving forward, we will be releasing new interviews on the first Friday of every month.

Please see below for timestamps, transcript and to submit questions, guest suggestions etc.

KEY TOPICS AND TIME MARKERS

[00:00:00] – Introduction

[00:02:00] - Mike Sassano’s Background & SOMAI Pharmaceuticals

[00:03:30] - Culture & Medical Cannabis: Beyond the Doctor’s Office

[00:06:00] - Personal Experience with Medical Cannabis

[00:07:30] - Terpenes & The Science of Medical Cannabis

[00:10:00] - The Power of Big Pharma in Healthcare Mythmaking

[00:22:30] - Reducing Stigma & The Fight for Medical Cannabis Equity

[00:28:00] - Expanding Alternative Medicine to Match Human Complexit 

[00:38:00] - The Future of Healthcare: What Comes Next?

[00:44:00] - Closing Reflection 

PODCAST LINKS:

·      Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com

·      Apple Podcasts: https://shorturl.at/R5iZN

·      Spotify: https://shorturl.at/wLteQ

·      RSS: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/1495034.rss

·      Pocketcasts: https://pca.st/2ef7kmo5

SOCIAL LINKS:

·      Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kel-myers-0790298/

·      X: https://x.com/Kelmyer5

·      Threads: @phoenixsoundbykelmyers 

·      Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Today I'm joined by Mike Sassano, the CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, together we deep dive into the science behind medical cannabis. In today's conversation we focus on the groundbreaking role of terpenes in medical cannabis and how these compounds are reshaping patient care and influencing treatment outcomes.

The science backed potential of full spectrum cannabis to address a wide range of health challenges from inflammation to anxiety and the ongoing tension that exists between government regulations Big Farmers Interests, and the urgent need to put patients first in this ever evolving space. Stay with us.

Thanks for joining me on Phoenix Sound today, Mike. I really appreciate it.

I'd love if we can start with really what inspired your journey into medical cannabis, into this space, and also, if we can start by giving the audience an overview as well of SOMAI pharmaceuticals, that'd be really helpful.

[00:00:56] Mike Sassano: So, SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, was kind of created to bring, uh, cannabis products, uh, to the global markets. And then if you, uh, go back even further in history, uh, where my, where my roots are, uh, with cannabis.

Um, you know, I developed, uh, and built with my own hands and my brother and I both actually, um, built over 25 cannabis facilities in the United States. And as, uh, time went on, I realised that we could make, uh, better products by running our own facilities and, uh, and, and making better products for the patients because in the early form it was medical markets.

Um, And then, uh, taking that knowledge of creating better products, better flower, uh, for those medical patients, metamorphosised, um, as the market developed. And then I saw the development of the medical markets in the global markets, and I said, that's another place where I believe we can have an advantage, um, to help patients to get better products for those communities.

And so, Um, now Somai is 134 employees and we've reached 12 countries and growing, um, with our products and, uh, we've gone from, uh, simply making the most, uh, comprehensive portfolio for extracts to, um, to now owning our own cultivation and, um, Uh, not only growing for some of the best brands in the world like cookies, but also bringing flowers across the global market.

So we've, we've expanded quite well, um, to fit the shoes of a top vertically integrated multi country operator.

[00:02:36] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have heard of cookies, the brand. quite into hip hop and I've heard that brand referenced a few times by rappers. Um, yeah, just to see that growth and obviously Australia's seen significant growth in his medical cannabis market.

Ibis world. that between 2019 and 2024, the industry grew by 112%. I'm sure it's a little bit more than that, but um, you know, with SOMAI's current presence and interest in Australia, how, how do you see the market evolving or metamorphosizing as you say, you know, you've been there from, from really the start, um, growing in America and now you're global.

So yeah, I'd love to get your take on that.

[00:03:25] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you just said there is, um, you know, when you Uh, said, I identify, or I at least understand, or I've heard about cookies through hip hop and that. Um, uh, this is, this is very important because reaching, uh, different demographics, um, that can be helped with cannabis, um, doesn't stop, uh, just at the doctors.

 It also goes to the culture on what people are talking about and, and what products they are talking about within that community that help them. And so, um, I think, I've always said this and my articles have been very clear about this. Australia is one, it is the number one, um, market for medical, uh, cannabis selection with over 1, 300, uh, different SKUs in the market.

It's my favorite pick because it allows, um, the patients and the communities, the flexibility to choose products that work for them.

[00:04:25] Kel: Yeah. And

[00:04:25] Mike Sassano: so. Um, you know, I'm in, Somai is in, in, in very young markets, market where they only have a few indications and a few products allowed in that market. Um, there's countries out there that don't allow cannabis at all.

Um, and then you have Australia inside the medical, uh, markets, which, you know, allows people to really identify with their products and choose the products, uh, that work for them. You know, and, you know. When you make over 100 extract problems, uh, uh, products and you have, um, uh, over, uh, 50 different flower skews.

Well, guess what? You believe that, uh, uh, uh, patients should have choice. You embrace the fact that there's a lot of choices. I heard somebody here say, Well, that's just too many in the market. I said, Well, I don't think so. I think there should be more choices for the patients. I was like, as a matter of fact, I, I would disagree with you.

I would say Uh, just one of our dispensaries in the United States has more choices than that So I think uh, you know as time goes on you should have more choice, uh as In the markets.

[00:05:38] Kel: Yeah, absolutely And particularly around the type of product. So whether it's say an oil or an edible for example.

I know for for myself, living with endometriosis and dealing with like women's health.

Things like pessaries, for example, they're becoming quite common. They're, they're compounded more often here. I don't know of any brand that's, that's just bringing them to the market, but that's just an example of, um, another kind of route of delivery of the medicine that's, that's really quite life changing, uh, for women that are dealing with chronic pelvic pain.

[00:06:13] Mike Sassano: Yeah, there's no one size fits all to address these issues. I remember one doctor was telling me that, hey, I'm using a 10 for 10 for, uh, endometriosis. And I said, well, that's interesting. Why? How did you come up with that exact oral drop to to to do to test for that?

I said, Do you think that a different formulation skew a different delivery device might be better? Maybe, you know, suppository format or others. And, you know, it's always very interesting, um, you know, to hear why people, you know, are choosing, um, you know, one version over the next. Um, you know, one doctor had said, Well, Do your, do your oral gums, your pastels, or whatever you may call them, will they melt at 40 degrees?

And I said, probably. Um, I just, do you think at 40 degrees, uh, you need to prescribe a, a, a gummy? Or would it be better, uh, maybe our census oral drop, which has a nice fruity taste also, um, and isn't going to boil at 40 degrees? Yeah. Um, what do you think your choice should be? So You know, um, providing those options and making sure that it address, you know, uh, as many, and you have so many options to address.

Well, then that person can find within that group what helps them, uh, to, to, to, uh, uh, to realize some satisfaction.

[00:07:36] Kel: Yeah, that's it. And it's definitely an ongoing journey can be trial and error, but that's also part of the journey. I think as a medical cannabis patient is there's always that incremental room for growth.

And as the market grows and more products come to come to the market, we become more informed hopefully of what those products are. And we kind of go on that journey together. So

[00:07:59] Mike Sassano: yeah,

[00:07:59] Kel: it's interesting. Yeah.

[00:08:01] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Yeah. And that's right. And you know, You know, my 80 year old parents are going to, they're going to find a different way.

To find that product, you know, to somebody that likes the hip hop community and inside that hip hop community if let's say a brand like Cookies or Aeropro or or Shcherbinsky's or you know, Jack Herrera or whatever name Uh, you know, attracts inside that industry and gets people to talk within that community about what helped them.

Well, guess what, you know, we've done a better job reaching that community and trying to find something that helps the indication they're looking to cure. And just because it has a name or a different, uh, look, uh, you know, uh, and the key is we reached you. We found you something that helps you, you know, throughout your demographics.

[00:08:55] Kel: Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I think, um, you know, like you say, culture and word of mouth and, um, and also being able to see what other people in your community are experiencing when they try something. I think that that's, um, some communities, particularly minority communities, I think, tend to trust that a lot more than, say, the conventional doctor and what they're saying.

So,

[00:09:17] Mike Sassano: yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I mean, look, let's face it, um, you know, doctors see many patients in the day, they're not going to get it right. Every single time of what the newest or best cannabis is. As a matter of fact, I surely hope they don't know the latest and greatest trend in cannabis because then they're not spending enough time taking care of patients.

Um, you know, or they have like no life on the other end where they're just studying cannabis all night long. So I don't know what, what else to say. Um, you know, you know, usually within your peer group, you will find things that, that, that, you know, that can be recommended a lot quicker than you will within your doctor's group sometimes.

[00:10:04] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think because it's such an emerging new class of medicine as well, like you say, and, and GPs here, they're already under the pump. Everyone's gone through COVID. You know, a lot of them are still dealing with, with long COVID and burnout and, you know, it can't be expected of them to just kind of like, learn an entire new class of medicine just overnight and just, you know, add that into what they have to do anyway, every day in their prescribing.

So yeah, it's, it's quite a heavy burden on them. It'll be interesting, I think, to see how, how the prescribing industry evolves over time to meet those demands of it being a new class of medicine and how that will play out in terms of how medicine's taught. It'd be good to see. Modules on this included for undergrads, um, in nursing and yeah, and medicine.

[00:10:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I mean, like, I just, I just, uh, about a month ago I had COVID again. I don't know how many times I've had this COVID. Uh, but this time I lost my taste. So now I'm trying to work with, I'm reading all, all the research and trying to, um, take my nightly, uh, my nightly extract and add some terpenes that might be able to help and fix me.

Uh, get me back my taste because I definitely do like eating, um, when I travel at the nice restaurants all over the world. And so, you know, now I get to research, you know, COVID, long COVID, and see if I can create something to help myself, um, and maybe in the future help, uh, help other people. So, you know, When you make a lot of different products, you become absorbed, uh, with all the different indications.

Um, like you said earlier, I had written an article and endometriosis. I think we, we have five different products. We're, we're researching to see if they work better. Um, You know, um, different, uh, uh, for arthritis, we just recently settled on a high Beta Caryophellene terpene, uh, that seems to give people more relief, uh, both by research and by actual Prac trying it out.

So I get the actual benefit of looking at whatever ails me or somebody else and trying to figure out can we make something that addresses that? Uh, does it exist within the portfolio or do we need to make something more exclusive?

[00:12:26] Kel: Yeah, and it often comes from life experience, doesn't it?

Like you said, like getting COVID again and experiencing those awful side effects of not being able to enjoy your food, which is just the worst because I'm the same. I love my food. And that's just, it's horrible, isn't it? When it's a joy and it's taken away from you like that. Um. Yeah, so to come up with a solution to that problem, and just on the point of, um, the Beta Caryophellene - the BCP, in my own research, and also experience as a patient, I've also found that flowers that are high in BCP are great for anti inflammatories.

And I did a bit of research around why that is, um, because of the way that that particular terpene is like a major terpene, and it links to the EC2 receptors, um, in the gut. And women have a lot more nerves, um, there than men do. And that's one of the reasons why the pain could be so acute. Um, So, yeah, I've kind of geeked out over BCP a bit in terms of, um, of the effect that it can have as an anti inflammatory.

Yeah, it's powerful.

[00:13:35] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree with you and you and I have been on a, a similar path for quite a while just so you know, um, trying to figure out, um, and being able to make that, you know, um, let's say understanding. Um, of the benefit of, of, um, of beta caryophyllene. So it's, uh, uh, I've become very excited about it over the last few years and even more so.

And now that people are validating it like yourself, I'm hearing that validation just makes me more positive, uh, that I, uh, that we've, we are on the right track, uh, with a, a very high beta karyophylline dominant. And so if it works, uh, for, uh, different anti inflammatory events, um, maybe that extra dose will bring, uh, uh, other indications to light.

Um, you know, and although, you know, we designed it. Let's say for, um, uh, both males and females, uh, but it was more designed around pain relief of the, of the aches, uh, in common, in, in different variations of arthritis. I do agree, um, you know, that the effect on the stomach, um, definitely will open up more indications and I think I'm going to have to footnote you now after this.

[00:14:48] Kel: I'm so glad we've connected on the BCP front because that's, yeah, I've been really excited about that. This past, um, six months since discovering it as a major terpene and what it can really do and then feeling the effects as well, first hand. Um, and then, yeah, I don't know how deep you want to get into terpenes, but yeah, I mean, I'd love to discuss full spectrum cannabis, which is, you know, the cornerstone of medical treatments.

And it is really important that we have. I guess a more nuanced conversation about it than, than just like Indica, Sativa, THC percentage. Um, I think it's easy to get caught up in that, but um, but yeah, I think things like limonene as well, which we know can really help. with anxiety and it can have that calming effect.

Um, when people are experiencing any kind of acute onset of pain, it naturally puts the body into fight or flight. And that combination of the B. C. P. And the limiting is also quite quite helpful. So I've been experimenting with You know, the complexities of like layering the terpenes and seeing how, how that works and how that affects my, my functionality throughout the day.

So yeah, it's interesting.

[00:16:07] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, you know, I, uh, let's say I fell in love with limonene. I don't know if love is the right word, but I liked it so much. Um, you know, that we actually, one of the senses line, we went, we went heavy on limonene, um, you know, for that exact reason, by the way. And so, uh, the combination thereof then becomes really the science, you know, limiting plus beta karyophylline.

How do those two dominant terpenes work out together? Does it solve multiple indications, singular indications, or even more indications than we imagined? And so, when you find the one, like, I think in the future, You know, um, you know, Sativas and Indicas and all those words are, are, are nice general ways where you could talk simply to people and then as people develop a better understanding of their body and why they are, why some cannabis works and why others, um, you know, it differentiates into terpenes and minor cannabinoid strengths.

Um, and then you really get the precision of what truly helps you. Um, you know, and what you're actually, you may even become more in tune with your body as to what is bothering you,

[00:17:18] Kel: um,

[00:17:18] Mike Sassano: general terms like long COVID or endometriosis, um, maybe there's other things inside of there, right? Maybe there's stress or anxiety due to work.

Maybe there's, uh, uh, other, other feelings you're trying to solve. And I think then mapping those terpenes and mapping those results, um, and also minor cannabinoids, I'll keep kind of reiterating that one too. Those, those re those reactions and those things help you to find is part of your journey.

[00:17:46] Kel: Yeah, absolutely, and there's still so much to learn about the, um, you know, the other minor cannabinoids like CBG and how that can help with mood and hormone stabilization, and it's a really exciting time.

I guess we're really just at the start of it, aren't we, in terms of the science behind it revealing itself?

[00:18:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, the yesterday Um, one of the locals here, uh, uh, uh, gave me a, um, a try of, of something with CBG, uh, heavily dominant CBG. Um, and I felt multiple different, uh, relief points, uh, for it. One, one happened to be, um, You know, you never know the exact reasons, but let's say I also had a feeling that it was helping, um, you know, my stomach was a little bit on edge from traveling.

And so I found different feeling by being able to try it, um, as a, as a, as a majority dominant, not just a small percentage, uh, of a, of a, um, Of a vaporizer unit. I was able to kind of isolate that exact element and that feeling and I I I'm saddened because in the markets where we come from, you know, they can't we can't overweight CBG by itself But in the u.

s. We have it in in Australia. They have it and I think there's there's definitely a great effect to that product and it doesn't it's not necessarily a a psychoactive ingredient.

[00:19:21] Kel: Hmm, interesting. Yeah, um, I'll have to, um, I'll have to look into that a little bit more. I have, um, a CBD oil which includes CBG, um, for the, for, for like the daytime.

It's like a sativa dominant one. Um, and it's, it's very helpful. It is, it's, um, Yeah, you do notice the difference. It's it's true. And I think it does help you create more self awareness and mind. It really helps on the mindfulness front to be in tune with your body. To that extent, it kind of forces you to slow down, which I think is a good thing for a lot of us who were kind of running around in this, in this busy world.

Sometimes it's good to just take a breath and check in with the body. We spend so much time in our heads. I think it's um, it's a good practice.

[00:20:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think the world is, you know, I think there's different stages of our development in the world. And, um, you know, at one point, let's say in our development, if they said here, here's a pill, take this, um, you know, Uh, we were, we were all led to believe that that's the only way that we could go.

Um, the doctor told you to take this, you must take this, take this pill once a day for the rest of your life. And, you know, um, as, as generations went by, they started to look at that and question it. And Herb You know, herbal, uh, medicines that have been around for centuries before Big Pharma came around.

Um, you know, herbal, uh, technologies became more mainstream. And then people started looking more deeper. And I would say even the cannabis industry, uh, created this retrospective and introspective moments where we actually concentrate on our bodies and what exactly is inside that cannabis or what is inside that extract that is making me feel good.

Is it the right one? And how do I keep searching out that feeling? Um, you know, inside and looking at what you put in and how it reacts with your body, I think is where we're at and where we're going in the future. And it's less about, hey, pop this every day till till the end. It's more of a journey that you're on.

[00:21:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot more of, um, a holistic experience as well. Um, and, and genuinely healing experience because, um, you know, a lot of these pills that you say we've, we've been popping for the past century or so, they just mask pain. They, uh, you know, cannabis modulates it, and that's a big difference.

And, um, my partner, I'll be candid, um, she has endometriosis, and she's had a pretty bad flare up these past few days. But to see her overcome it from home without having to go to ED, without having to, you know, be on fentanyl and, and, and take medical cannabis and, and just take care of herself here is extraordinary.

Um, to think where she was three days ago to, to now she's, she's back on her feet and she's got color in her face again. I just don't think that kind of transformation and turnaround is really possible with, conventional medicine. But yet the stigma seems to remain, a significant challenge globally, including in Australia, and yeah, I'd love to get your take on what role you think education and transparent communication really play in reducing stigma, and how, how you think, We can all contribute to these efforts.

[00:22:45] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think we should be allowed to have a bigger megaphone and be able to blast out these messaging like what you just said.

If you have something that's debilitating and Big Pharma is telling you I'm going to give you something that's more debilitating - are you really helping them, you know, is that really the path you want to be on?

And if nobody is allowed to counter, um, you know, that, Hey, look, you know, there's an alternative to you going fentanyl. There's an alternative to you going oxycodone. And if you don't have that megaphone to bring into that educational sphere, Big Pharma is out speaking to the world. Right? Yeah, they have more money to speak and to get that messaging out and they can prevent educational information or they can make it regulations for cannabis much harder.

But at the end of the day, if you read, if you watch what's going on in the US, let me tell you something that's going on. The HHS, the FDA has come out two times already this year with reports and said that cannabis is safer than all the alternatives in the market, helps at least and they use the word least 15 indications and they just did a eight step process, which is for the approval of any medical drug.

And they said the downside of cannabis both addictive wise and others, if you can say there is that, is the same and comparable with caffeine.

That is the largest health organisation in the world putting that in writing.

And on the other side you see the negative influences coming in trying to stop that material from reaching the public trying to suppress those documentations

[00:24:34] Kel: Yeah

[00:24:34] Mike Sassano: and trying to uh, not Uh, at least take cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule three, um, you know, which it seems with us in the community who know exactly or the help of cannabis, well, it seems silly to say that it has no medical benefit, not just silly.

It seems almost, uh, insane that That you can't make that determination at this point of, of, of, of decades of research and the government, HHS, FDA is saying the exact thing. And then the DEA is saying, no, no, no. We think it's dangerous. Well, what, what, from what, where's your evidence? Or when doctors tell me I don't have enough evidence, well, there's over 35, 000 research reports.

Not one of them, uh, not one of them indicating that cannabis isn't better than the alternatives in the market. As a matter of fact, every single one of them points to a better alternative, including all regulators in the world. So why isn't our education and words getting out? As you might imagine, this is a very passionate topic for me.

[00:25:39] Kel: Yes, yes, yeah, I guess as it should be, because as a leader in this space, you're facing a lot of resistance, and you've got to be passionate, and this isn't a place for complacency, is it, or apathy, it's um Yeah, it's a push. Like you say, they've got so much power, so much money, and they're so established and baked into the way we do healthcare.

Full stop. It's, it's um, yeah, it's a real seismic shift, isn't it?

[00:26:09] Mike Sassano: Yep, it is. It is. And if I, you know Being in this industry for almost 17 years now, you know, I've seen so many variations And and there's nobody who's going to tell me cannabis doesn't help it. I don't care who you are You know, I was with a regulator that was very staunch and I came in with all this these data And I said, I'm not going to regurgitate this to you.

I'm going to leave this on your desk. And you can imagine how silly it's going to sound when you tell me that there's no data to say there's medical benefit. And I dumped, uh, it was about one and a half feet tall of just documentation. I said, this is your, my present to you because you're never going to convince me of this.

[00:26:50] Kel: That's amazing. I'm not here. I'm

[00:26:51] Mike Sassano: sometimes I'm not here to convince you because your mind is closed But here's all the people that benefit if they can benefit it's up to you not to get in their way

[00:27:02] Kel: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just don't get in people's ways. That's it. Nobody's trying to brainwash the public or make everyone take cannabis.

It's like, we just don't get in people's ways when they're trying to access it and trying to learn more about how that can help their, their health. And really, it's just shameful how Conventional medicine continues to fail the population. And really, I think that's the thing they're scared of really admitting is that, yeah, they're massive failures and the reasons why people are leaving them and moving over to alternative medicine.

People wouldn't even be exploring it if, if, um, pills worked, you know, so, yeah,

[00:27:44] Mike Sassano: well, I call it out very Very strong, you know, and it won't matter, you know, if they're, uh, what their regulatory position is, um, you know, it's just clear, uh, you have two ways you can look at this, you know, either somehow, um, uh, somehow you have some, uh, belief not founded in medicine or big pharma's got you twisted.

It's one of two reasons why you don't, uh, uh, look at the safety standards of, of cannabis and ask yourself, for whatever reason it is that you are not allowing this to happen, so be it. It's your choice. inside your brain. On the other side, if somebody can benefit, right, why stand in their way if you believe that there is a benefit to it?

You don't have to, you don't have to violate whatever ideas are in your brain by just staying off the negative. You don't have to be a promoter, but you can't be the negative side of this equation and get some respect from me.

[00:28:47] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What motivates you to keep advocating for change in this space, Mike?

Like you said, you've been here for 17 years, um, pushing for change. Uh, what, what motivates you?

[00:29:03] Mike Sassano: I mean, uh, You have to see the other end of what I see, you know, and I get messages online I get messages sent for years You know, some of them, you know, some of them are, you know, one side or the other But when you get positive messages in the industry of people that are helped and can you Mike, you know Can you work on as an example, we were talking other eyes Um, you know something with beta caryophyllene, something with limonene.

Can you work on something with this? You know, I have this. Can you take a look into Long COVID. Can you take into Look into this. Is there something you would recommend? And many of the times i'm able to recommend something that's in the market, right? Like this looks like it might be helpful. Let me know how it goes Um, you know And, you know, when I came over to the global markets, you know, I just kept making more and more products because I just couldn't imagine, um, you know, another product that couldn't help somebody like they need more limonene.

They need more Barry to carry awfully. They need more. Um, you know, whatever it is, um, they need another variation. They need another delivery device Yeah,

[00:30:18] Kel: you know

[00:30:18] Mike Sassano: this delivery device doesn't isn't isn't going to get them where where this group needs And the more I kept going the more I kept making More products and more Uh, more variations and I couldn't stop at some point like there had the point came where okay, I was looking at the rosins and the resins and I was saying to myself, what's after this?

And then I said, I said, More rosins and more resins, more strains. So then I couldn't stop there, so I was like, Okay, we can't come out with too many of these, So let's, let's just come out with three strains of rosin and three different strains of resins, you know? And then it became a pheno hunt of strains.

And then I said, Okay, we've done that. So now 2025 and 2026, or sorry, 2026, what's the new lineup for the phenos? I was just sent that out the other day. I was like, so what's our new line of phenos? So now I need to have more phenos for 26. And so it's kind of this never ending processes. It's not that you're trying to make, I don't know how to say this right, but okay.

It's not like, You know, this is the best it's this is the this is the best variety. I can find you. This is the best flower. I could find you with the best technique to make the Ross and I can't say this one is the best, but I did the best I can to find the, you know, great strains and I did the right processing and I gave you three versions.

Did you like those three versions? Did you not? Did you find one that worked for you inside of that? Did you not? Okay, great. I have three more versions coming for you that I think you might like to try. And so, you know, it becomes kind of this never ending, uh, quest to reach every demographic with every kind of product that can be formed in the best and most ethical manner you can make it in.

And at some degree it's, it's all has to do with choice of flower and choice of technology. You know, process. And if you think about it like that, then it's almost infinite, right? Cause flower strains change. People's desires change. Uh, technology keeps getting better for, from the extracted side as an example.

Um, you know. What we made 15 years ago, I can tell you, um, it was kind of like you were, you know, extracts are made kind of like you made brownies at home. You would warm up the product in some fatty, uh, uh, solution, um, an oil or some fatty solution. Then you would centrifuge it and you would, you know, put that into, into your whatever, gummy or, or vape or whatever, you know, RSO was a very early form product, you know, and it was a very crude extraction process. So basic, but helped so many, right? And then as time went on, that technology got better and better and better. Um, you know, I remember years ago. These CO2 guys came from the perfume industry.

They had never extracted any cannabis before in their life. But the theory was sound. And then suddenly we're all CO2 extracting one day. One day it was, they were making perfumes. The next day they were making cannabis. Well, that technology also changed. And changed dramatically. And then, you know, ethanol came in.

And then suddenly we were saying, Well, isn't this hydrocarbon better? Is it, you know? Then we would roll back to the natural version of rosin extraction and say, No, that's better. Or, is there a place for all of this? Does this appeal to this person? Does that appeal? And once you realise that it all has an appeal to a different person, then you find out that there's actually a place for everything in there.

And then you can't stop and then it becomes addictive to make more and more products as best as you can because more and more people are being helped and it's almost, you almost can't get off that treadmill once you're on it.

[00:34:41] Kel: Yeah, yeah, it's a real, um, equity quest that you seem to be on there, Mike.

Like, we really value equity and unity on the, on the podcast and the idea that everyone's an individual and they need different things and whilst there might be similarities and, and, and generalities, there's always going to be things that just work for you that don't work for the next person.

And, even if you have the same condition and yeah, I can see how it can just like, you know expand out the way it does for you. It's just mushrooms into more and more variants. Um, but you know, everyone's got different needs really

[00:35:17] Mike Sassano: yeah, it's it's almost you know, I can't find my way off the treadmill to be honest with you Um, now even with this, with this call, I have to tell you, I'm going to, I'm relooking, you know, I'm thinking to myself, relooking at, at, uh, at these, at these, uh, uh, how we're doing the endometriosis, uh, choice and saying, look, I think we need to try and get this off of the shelf and get this into the market.

There's just too many people, um, you know, that are suffering over this. And then now they're being swayed to fentanyl. Which is like hearing that just blows my mind. Like I need to be, I need to help. I can't sit around on the sidelines after hearing that.

[00:35:57] Kel: Thanks, Mike. I feel like I've actually done something useful by sharing that.

I'm really, I'm really glad that we've connected today. I really am. I'm really grateful for your time and that I got to share that with someone who's actually willing to listen and take some action. Um, with that, that's in a position to do so, so yeah, I really think that could really help.

[00:36:20] Mike Sassano: Yeah, this is uh, but this is exactly what, what ends up happening with me.

I, I just can't sit on the sidelines.

[00:36:27] Kel: Yeah. It's just

[00:36:28] Mike Sassano: not gonna happen.

[00:36:29] Kel: Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:29] Mike Sassano: Whether I get it right or I at least try and keep improving and get it right the next time or get it right the next time, I'll keep going, you know, because, uh, it's important. And so I, you know, you know, we'll just, we, we just got to keep going.

And sometimes, you know, like my production teams, they're, they say, look, you know, Mike, you know, we're at 138 extracted stabilized EU GMP products, you know, isn't that enough. And I say, it'll be enough once I hear enough feedback. You know, and we're reaching all the demographics that need to be reached.

And like with the marketing teams, I said, look, you know, SOMAI is a pharmaceutical brand, it will remain for the very strict countries. Uh, very strict pharmaceutical brand, but you need to also reach, you know, different demographics with different branding because it's not like making, uh, you know, great product or growing great product is strictly for, uh, uh, Merck and Pfizer.

You know, it's for, it's for, you know, hip hop or for whatever, whatever, uh, demographic you're in. And so if you're not reaching the public with your, with your messaging, well, maybe you need to reach out with a different branding, you know, and explain to the people why this is useful for whatever it is and whatever indication they're at.

And don't stop ever. Until your message gets out there and those people are cured. So no production team. I'm not ready to stop making products yet Sorry, I haven't gotten there yet. I don't have enough data.

[00:38:05] Kel: I Love that. I love that I mean like you said Mike a lot of people are suffering you wouldn't even have to be thinking about this if there wasn't so Many sadly demographics that are in pain whether it's chronic pain cancer pain so many people Um, uh, suffering and in pain, and we've got to ask ourselves why, but also when are we going to actually really do something to truly transform the healthcare system?

And that's where I'd love to kind of, um, end the conversation. Um, on your vision for the future and if you could envisage like an ideal health care system where medical cannabis is fully accepted, integrated, where people are getting the right products for their pain and conditions, um, what do you think that would look like and realistically how far away do you reckon we are from achieving it?

[00:38:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, it's a complicated question, right? Um, You know, I see so many variations of, uh, regulatory medicines, and so, and I see the pluses and minuses of them all. Like, let me give you an example of what I mean by what I'm saying. In the U. S. market, pretty much anything goes, any drug can be advertised, and anything can be prescribed almost immediately.

But now you have a culture that's addicted to pills. Um, you know, they're creating chronic diseases because, uh, they're a cheat. They're just giving you a pill for everything. And suddenly you have almost the use at a, at a children's age. They're eight to 12 percent use of very serious pains, uh, because, you know, they're the ADHD and other things are overly prescribed and overly diagnosed.

So there's a very extreme market. You know, that's, you know, taking a lot of the pills. Is that freedom very positive? I would say, look, it's impossible to dissect medical freedom. Um, but there should come with medical education. So I, I tend to, to be on the side that you should have medical freedom. But.

There needs to be a robust educational network and it cannot come from the pharmaceuticals and we cannot snuff out education from proper ways of getting out there because people are going to get the word on Reddit or the internet. And so, if we become trusted sources, you know, to educate, uh, not the negative sources online trying to de educate and reprogram people to only stick to the old fashioned view of how medicine has to be prescribed and diagnosed, um, Then I believe the metamorphosis, uh, can be complete where there's a freedom of medicine but an education on the other side.

And I'll give you an example. I take some time every year just to, uh, clean my system. Um, not just for you know, cleaning from whatever eating or drinking or whatever, you know, uh things, you know I'm doing on a regular basis, but to actually do a little bit of a cannabis cleaning myself also now It's not the most enjoyable thing I do.

Um, you know, just like you know, okay I'm not going to eat meat this month or i'm not going to Um drink alcohol this month or whatever it is. You're trying to clean from um, it's never going to be a perfectly enjoyable experience um, however What it keeps is, is my, my, uh, my dosaging and how much I take, uh, keeps it at a lower amount than if I keep increasing and gaining a tolerance over it.

So it keeps, um, it keeps my dosaging in a, in a nice zone over the course of. whatever decades I've been doing it, um, and at least edibles now for the last eight years, uh, my dosage will go up and then after the cleaning, I could bring it back down. Now, you know, that's a freedom, uh, that, that I enjoy. And when I travel from country to country, sometimes I don't have that freedom and I'm forced to not take, uh, the cannabis, uh, when I would like to take it.

So I was in Japan and there was no cannabis there. Well, I can say that was a forced cleaning that was not so enjoyable for me. so, you know, maybe I'm not gonna, even though I love Tokyo, I love Japan, I love the culture, I love the, I love everything about Japan. I like skiing in Japan. But you know what?

I don't think I'm going to be going back to Japan if I can't pursue Uh, you know, the product that makes me, uh, enjoy my sleep, um, you know, gives me a good calm. So maybe I won't, uh, be there, as much as I love that country. Maybe, you know, uh, maybe that's the right approach. You know, maybe people need to know that.

We're, we're just not going to tolerate no, uh, freedom, uh, to have your medicine if it's considered safe and we can get a good educational program out there. And I should be allowed to talk more to people. I should not be stifled by regulators. I don't have any bad feelings for people that I want to addict them to oxycodones or fentanyls or things that are killing people.

I have no, no feelings for that, but I should have a bigger voice than them. I should be allowed to speak and educate everywhere I can, uh, as to the goodness, uh, and pe that people are receiving from cannabis and, and the, the, the nature of how to use cannabis right. You know, my voice should be bigger than Big Pharma's.

You know, all of our voices should be. And we should overwhelm the airwaves with it.

[00:43:38] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's the way, isn't it? It's going to take a collective effort and a strength in numbers, definitely.

[00:43:48] Mike Sassano: Yeah, if we just, look, we all You know, I try to tell people there's no competitors in this industry.

We're all partners and we're all friends in the same technique. Now, of course, not everybody plays in the same level playing field, um, as, as I would like them to. Um, but at the end of the day, we're all in one boat. And guess what? There's Big Pharma got that their thumb on the scale. There's no reason, there's no rational reason I can think of that in the United States, we're a schedule one drug, which means the same as heroin.

You know, you can't tell me cannabis is the same as heroin. I don't care what crazy town you come from, there's no way that any of your experience or your knowledge is going to make sense to me to tell me that cannabis is the same as heroin. That's just crazy. And anybody who repeats that sounds crazy to me.

[00:44:46] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Even

[00:44:47] Mike Sassano: my 80 year old parents who are as conservative as they come, you know, understand cannabis and take cannabis, you know, and they're like come from a whole nother world of generations, you know?

[00:44:59] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. My Nana is 90. Um, and she's been exploring it. She's been exploring CBD, um. Yeah, but then that's a whole nother realm, isn't it?

Because she's quite tech savvy for her age, for 90 she's got a mobile phone, but the people in her care home don't have access to the internet the same way, and they're, you know, it's like, how do we make sure that they get access too? Because not everyone does have the internet. So yeah, that's a whole nother conversation for another day, but yeah.

[00:45:30] Mike Sassano: Send me over to their home. I'm going to go over there and do a do an educational seminar for them. I'm sure that that's what I would like to do. I'm sure that yeah. Let me let me carry the internet voice in the fashion that they know how to. And I will go out there personally myself and do this for them.

Because you know that all my parents friends have found some dosage that makes sense for them. Whether it's the high CBD or a very, very, very, very light. THC CBD dose, you know, um, because, you know, as they're older, you got to, they're more sensitive to these. And so they need to find something that makes sense for them because if they can enjoy their life a little bit better and decrease the big pharma pills that they're being forced to take 12, 15, 20 a day.

Well, great. Here, add another one and tell me if you feel a little better.

[00:46:20] Kel: Exactly. Exactly. They deserve to have a better quality of life as well, you know?

[00:46:26] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Especially after living 90 years, right?

[00:46:30] Kel: Yes! It's not about that.

[00:46:32] Mike Sassano: What? They, they, they, they've been, they've, they, they were brainwashed for so damn long that cannabis was bad, right?

That it took years of me being in the business for my parents to warm up with it and to try it. Uh, you know, and to find what it meant for them, they did it on their own, not because I told them to, but they did it on their own to say, what is this? You know, our doctor gives us all these pills. What is this?

What is it? Tell me about CBD. And they were alert. They were online learning themselves. I think this sounds right for me. I want to try it.

[00:47:07] Kel: Yeah. Yeah, that's so beautiful. It's, it's so, yeah, and how have you seen a transformation in them since they've started doing that? Have you noticed a shift?

[00:47:17] Mike Sassano: I think they're all quite happy.

I mean, Yeah. We all see the transformation for ourselves. Right. It doesn't, just because you got older doesn't mean you can't benefit. The only thing that, that changed is the mentality, right? The educational level. So in their mind, they had to surcome to an age that told them, by the way, when they were growing up, they said, smoking is good.

Smoking cigarettes is great for you. And people smoked everywhere. There were no non smoking zones. It was smoke as much as you can because it's going to help your health. Can you imagine that's the era they came from?

[00:47:54] Kel: Yeah, yeah, well, it was like cool and sexy to be like, yeah, a young woman smoking like,

[00:48:00] Mike Sassano: yeah,

[00:48:02] Kel: crazy.

But

[00:48:02] Mike Sassano: it was, but it was, it was even more, it was a benefit to your health. Can you imagine? It's not just It's not just sexy, you know. You're gonna get a husband if you smoke this. It was actually also healthy.

[00:48:17] Kel: It's gonna help your lungs, yeah. Oh my god. It's unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, you watch shows like Mad Men and you see like the advertising behind it, you know, where they do the whole It's Toasted campaign.

I think it's for Marlborough and just, yeah, just the response they got from that was like yeah, everyone's like, oh wow, yeah, it's toasted.

[00:48:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah,

[00:48:40] Kel: well,

[00:48:40] Mike Sassano: I mean, you know, they're They can remember like even all the times, you know, and even in our generations like like they told us Uh, okay, you know stop using paper bags um use plastic bags because the paper bags are gonna Are gonna kill the environment by killing all the trees.

Well then they realized plastic bags weren't so good. So they said, okay, stop using plastic bags, go this way. If we followed every genera every If we followed the medical trends over the last hundred years, you would be in shock. Like you would, you would stop following, you know, them and you would be on your own path and probably you would pick a path of cannabis, um, you know, before you tried a million other drugs, you know, even recently I had hurt my neck and it was, you know, and I went to the doctors and they said, here's a prescription of oxycodone is going to make you feel great and I looked at him and I go, okay.

Do you know what this stuff does? Like, you know, well, don't worry. We're not going to give you another prescription, so you're not going to get addicted to it. And I saw, what does that mean? Like, you know, give me a break. Come on.

[00:49:50] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just no aftercare. There's no considering the long term effects.

Just off you go, get some pills.

[00:50:00] Mike Sassano: Yep,

[00:50:01] Kel: yep.

[00:50:02] Mike Sassano: See you in a few months, let me know how it goes and if you need a refill, I'll give you a refill. And guess what? If you give me a bunch of Oxycodone and you give me a refill and my personality is such that I like that and I can keep using that well, I may never stop, just so you know.

It's just very possible,

[00:50:23] Kel: you

[00:50:24] Mike Sassano: know?

[00:50:24] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. Such a dangerous path that people can end up going down through no fault of their own. Just a careless system, really, that's not evolved. And yeah, we're definitely due a revolution, that's for sure.

[00:50:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, but we'll get there.

We've come such great strides and as, as down as like, you know, when I'm in every, every local area that I go to, cause I travel a lot, educating doctors and pharmacists, every single. Every locality says, Oh, I wish we could get better.

I wish they, and when I come to Australia, I go, guys you need to realise how great you really got it. Let me tell you some other countries and some horror stories, you know, like Ireland, you know, Uh, you know, they, they're just starting to realize that GPs can prescribe and it's not just for multiple sclerosis and cancer three and epilepsy, you know, there's other indications like pain and different categories of pain, you know, but they, they, they, they couldn't get it before they had to go to the illicit market, which is fine.

At least they're getting it somewhere, but why can't they or spain? You could walk into any social club there and get it from the illicit market Product, it's not uh, you know from the medical markets, but you can't get medical products still this year It'll change but imagine that like, you know, you're like all why would the medical?

Department. Why can you get it at any social club, but you can't get it at a medical club. I mean, to some degree, I think that's, that's actually quite good, but you know, still, it's not like my 80 year old parents are going to walk into a, a medical and a social club, you know, their, their product, you know, um, they do like their bud tenders now in the United States.

So they don't talk to their doctor anymore. They like they have their local bud tenders. They like, so I'm like, okay, if you like them, I'm glad they're helping you. Yeah. Yeah. Honey, we don't need your advice. We got our local bud tender. She's really, she's really smart. And I'm like, great. I'm glad you found somebody you like.

[00:52:29] Kel: Yeah. If it's enriching their life, then why not? Oh Mike, I've really enjoyed our conversation today. I'm really grateful for your time. I'm, really looking forward to sharing it with our audience and um, you've given me a lot of food for thought So thank you so much I'm glad we connected.

[00:52:43] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Thanks for enjoying it and letting me spread the word and uh having your interest come visit us come tour with us over to our facility If you make it to Lisbon, if I'm in one of your cities, me.

let's meet one of these days.

[00:52:55] Kel: That sounds good Thanks so much. Mike. I hope you have a good rest of your trip and definitely be in touch.

See you soon. Mike. Take care.

wraps up today's conversation with Mike Sassano, CEO of We've explored a lot today, including the global impacts of SOMAI and their growth, their commitment to innovating within the space, and receiving feedback and doing something with that, and taking actions to make patients lives better, and the ethical considerations that come with the medical industry.

These are just a few topics that we'll continue to unpack on the podcast. And if you enjoyed today's discussion, like, subscribe

until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

SHOW NOTES:

Watch 'In Plain Sight' documentary demo story here

Support funding for 'In Plain Sight' here

Learn more about United In Compassion here

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Today I'm joined by Lucy Haslam, retired nurse, health advocate, and co-founder of United in Compassion, the driving force behind medical cannabis reform in Australia.

Lucy's journey is one of incredible determination, transforming personal loss into a movement that continues to change and sustain lives.

But a decade on, significant challenges still remain in making this new class of medicine truly accessible to those who need it. So now, Lucy is leading the way to launch Australia's first public education campaign on medical cannabis through the documentary In Plain Sight. The film will explore the history, science, and politics of medical cannabis whilst exposing the barriers that still exist, from stigma to misinformation and flawed policies.

Today we dive into Lucy's journey, the fight for change, and why this documentary is so urgent. Stay with us.

You're joining us as I speak with Lucy about the incredible impact of her work and the change she's helped spark. Let's jump in.

The change that you've helped spark is really remarkable. And I guess what began as a deeply personal journey has blossomed into now a national movement that continues to make such a meaningful impact on countless lives across the country.

And I think it's one thing to face. Um, any kind of adversity but it's another to transform that Into something to help change other people's lives for the better and I think that's nothing short of a miracle to be honest and I just wanted to give you your flowers to be honest to start with because I did, because I just think it's really important that we remember the people that have paved the way.

And yeah, I was, I'm just so, yeah, awestruck by everything that you do and continue to do. So, I'd love it if we could start with maybe you sharing with us how your personal experience led to founding United in Compassion.

[00:01:59] Lucy: Okay, well thanks Kel for saying all that you've actually helped me just in hearing that to remember why I did this in the first place because I kind of lose sight, I suppose it's been a decade now and sometimes you lose sight and you become a bit frustrated and disillusioned, so thanks for saying that. So I guess my personal journey I never expected to be doing what I'm doing. But adversity, you know, sort of puts you in places where you have to change tack, I suppose. So for us it started in 2010 when our youngest son Dan was diagnosed with stage 4 bowel cancer. Dan was he was just 20 at the time and very much a kid.

He was a beautiful person. He was going to uni. He was living the dream, excited about life, one of those people that wanted to do everything. He, you know, he was musical, he was adventurous, he wanted to travel, he just wanted, he was sporty, he just, he just loved life. And so when he was diagnosed, really out of the blue on the 5th of February in 2010.

Our lives changed his certainly did, but our whole family's lives changed. And you don't expect that you're going to suddenly be facing a terminal illness in your youngest child when they've got You were thinking that they had so much to be looking forward to. So Dan obviously started on really rigorous cancer treatment immediately.

He had five years of continuous chemotherapy. He had lots of major surgeries including bowel resections, liver resections. His body was basically riddled with cancer and it was always going to be a fight. But you keep hope front and center when that's your child and you try not to let yourself go down those pathways of thinking that you've got to be preparing for the end.

But I think instinctively I knew that was, that was there based on my background in nursing. I certainly wasn't expecting to become a medicinal cannabis advocate, but by 2014 Dan was in such a bad way. Basically every side effect that you could have from chemotherapy he had, and then some, despite the doctors telling us that, you know, chemotherapy is so much more manageable these days, you know, don't expect that you'll get all these symptoms.

Well, I think Dan pretty well got every one of them. And. By 2014, he really, he had no quality of life whatsoever, he, he literally was he was just hanging on for dear life. He was not able to maintain an appetite or his weight, he was extremely anxious, very worried about what was coming next, and very worried about us, and all of that.

And, his, his he made good friends with another person in Tamworth who had bowel cancer. He was actually a local businessman and that businessman eventually said to Dan that he thought he should try cannabis because during his cancer journey it had helped him a lot and Dan said no, not going to do it.

Mum and Dad won't ever agree. You know, at our, for our background, mine was in nursing and my husband's was in policing and most of his career had been in the drug squad. So we were at that time very anti cannabis, I've got to say. very, very much the way we found the rest of the community. But luckily for me, his friend contacted me and said, Look, Lucy, Dan said no to this, but I want to, I want to put it by you.

Would you be interested in me giving you some cannabis for Dan to try? And I said without hesitation, absolutely, yes, please, please bring it round. And we then had to convince Dan that he needed to use cannabis just at least to give it a try. And I will never forget the day that he tried it when he had his next round of chemotherapy which was fortnightly at that stage.

My husband rolled in the joint and Dan had a couple of puffs on that joint at a time when he was normally throwing up, the colour came back into his face, and he asked for something to eat. And that was just so incredibly different to what we had been going through for years. And it, it really did give us some hope that he would get some quality of life back.

He began to eat better, he stopped vomiting, he began to sleep better.

He eventually wanted to start to make the oil because we started to do some exploration on the internet and saw that many people were using it in oil form to try and treat their cancer, so he did that making his own oil from cannabis that I would buy.

And, you know, things like his mouth ulcers cleared up which, you know, it doesn't sound like a big thing, but when you've got a mouth full of cavernous mouth ulcers that rarely heal between between rounds of chemotherapy, you know, that's a, that's a big deal. And,

[00:07:11] Kel: yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:13] Lucy: But, you know, this was very challenging for us because this challenged everything I, I really thought or believed or had been taught about medical cannabis.

And so I just, I just thought I've just got to know more. I've got to, I've got to understand why this is working. And at that time, there'd been a recent Senate inquiry in New South Wales. The year before there'd been a Senate inquiry and a couple of my local politicians had been involved on that Senate inquiry.

And I reached out to them, one of whom was been our solicitor and they came and saw me and they said, look, we, we unanimously recommended that cannabis be reintroduced, but the health minister had thrown cold water on it and said kind of basically over her dead body. And so, you know, another opportunity had been missed.

And I reached out to people like Alex Wodak, who was an addiction specialist with St. Vincent's Hospital and said, Look, my son's using cannabis now. Is he going to come to any harm? You know, what should I do? We, we, we're sort of searching the internet trying to find answers and he was wonderful. He contacted me and he said, look, Lucy, firstly, he won't come to any harm.

I mean, how stupid, what a silly question. Dan was dying anyway. But that's kind of where my head was at. I just didn't want him to come to any harm from using this. And he said, look, you know, I've been banging on about cannabis for so long now, you know, the politicians just think I'm an idiot. But you know, maybe they'll listen to you as a mother.

And, and I just thought, well, this is the right thing to do. And it just began from there, I guess. I didn't make a big decision. I'm going to run a. medical cannabis campaign or anything like that. I just wanted to help my son. So it was, it was pretty clear and simple. And, you know, the best thing that I thought that I could really do because I found it was so challenging personally, I thought, well, people are either going to love us or they're going to loath us, loath us.

And It was really hard, it was important to me that, that people knew what we were doing and why we were doing it, and so I decided to go public about it, and we lived in a conservative country community in Tamworth in New South Wales, and I went to my local members and I told them, like the state and federal member.

They were kind of shocked and horrified at first, you know, and I went to the local newspaper and spoke to the editor and told him what I wanted to do and, and he said, look, I will support you any way I can. A lot of people knew us in the town, they knew the kind of people that we were, they knew Dan, he'd been the school captain at one of the largest high schools there.

And so, you know, I, I thought it was risky, but I thought I just wanted to, I wanted people to know that we were doing what we were doing for the reasons we were doing it and that perhaps we all needed to think twice about medicinal cannabis. And I guess just luckily for us, they they supported us.

overwhelmingly. It was quite incredible to be part of it. The local community ran a campaign called Doing It For Dan. They, they made it very public and they really supported us. Local councillors supported us. The local police supported us. And it took away a lot of that fear because we really were expecting a knock on the door and instead of getting that knock on the door from, from police to, you know, to charge us, we were actually getting gifts dropped on our door of cannabis plants or cannabis material for dance. So it was pretty it was pretty inspiring to see the humanity in people.

[00:11:00] Kel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can only imagine just how beautiful that would have been to see everyone rallying around you and, you know, trusting that you guys are upstanding citizens, like you said, you've got a background in nursing, your husband's within the police, Yeah, I'm sure that you really helped to shift their perspectives on it.

[00:11:21] Lucy: Yeah, well look, we used to see other cancer patients up in the chemotherapy suite and cancer patients talk to each other and then you'd hear other people saying that they were using it and you think, why do these people have to feel shame for trying to relieve? Really severe symptoms, you know, they're already battling for their lives and we're making them feel ashamed and there was, you know, Dan had just so much sympathy for the other cancer patients.

I think that's what really inspired him to kind of go public about it as well because, you know, he didn't want to be known as the cancer boy. He didn't want to be known even as the cannabis boy. He was quite, you know, he was, he wanted to be quite private about it, but he just said to me, 'Mum, we've got to help these people', you know saw it more about helping the others that for me, it was helping him, but he wanted to help everybody else.

And I guess that's what inspired United in Compassion. And, you know, I just, I think that was reflective of the kind of person that Dan was.

[00:12:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And the ripple effect that he continues to create, you know?

[00:12:35] Lucy: Well, I hope so. I do think that, you know, we're a decade on now. It'll be 12, it'll be 10 years since Dan passed away next month.

And a lot of people have come into the medicinal cannabis sector who don't know the history. And that's not their fault. I mean, it's a whole new industry, but I think the fact that it was a patient led movement, which seems to really reflect what's happened globally. Any country where it's been adopted, it's been because patients have pushed for it.

And I think there's a lot of shame in that. Why have patients had to push for this, you know? The science has really been smothered in a lot of hysteria and misinformation over, over decades, over at least 80 years, you know, since the war on drugs began. And, you know, that's what's holding cannabis back in Australia now, still, is, is the stigma.

Because people are uninformed, you know. I think if everyone in Australia was to understand more deeply about cannabis, there would be a far greater acceptance of it as a medicine.

[00:13:48] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. There is so much stigma, just reflecting on what you've just shared, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story, Lucy, and I know it mustn't be easy to, to, to share that, and it's just, it's A friend used the word brutal which is like when something's really brutal but it's beautiful too and that's kind of how this feels and what you've created it's it's an incredible loss and also an incredible transformation for you to Transform all of that into something like United in Compassion and, and like you said, you weren't ever planning on going down this route of advocating for cannabis, it's just where life has taking you and United in Compassion has just been a driving force for change in Australia.

I've been reading as much press as I can to try and like, learn about the history and, Put things in more of a context than just what's happening today. And, to see the advocating work that you do to ensure patient access and to help shape legislative change and really pave the way for progress

 The way that you bring people together healthcare professionals, policy makers. to create a more compassionate approach to healthcare. I think he's just incredible. And I know there's a lot of work to do, but I'd love to just take a minute to reflect on what you have accomplished and what's your proudest achievement so far.

[00:15:09] Lucy: Oh gosh, Kel look there, there have been, this has been a roller coaster. I've got to say, I mean, as many highs as they've been in terms of achievements, there've been lows as well. And I, I don't know if I'm a glass half empty or a glass half full. And I never know from, from week to week. It's like, you know, like these massive massive dips and, and, and rises.

I think I used to be very proud when the law changed. But that didn't last for very long because then I saw the politics, I, I was politically naive at the beginning and, and to be honest, I was, I was hoodwinked by the politics of it.

So, I think initially I was proud that the law changed and, and that it was named in Dan's honour, but then I was kind of disgusted when we actually saw the, the regulation and the legislation, which you know, it wasn't even available at the time that it passed.

So, there was highs and lows there. I think the symposiums have been something that I take great pride in. We're just working on the next one now. And, you know, the first one that I had in Tamworth in 2014, before cannabis was legalised it was so different.

I, I remember that I think the audience was about 95 percent vegetarian and most of them, you know, were what, what people would term loosely hippies and, and that kind of you know, and, and. All credit to them, they knew a lot more about cannabis than we ever did. So, and you know, and I'll, and police were concerned that there would be riots and demonstrations and all that.

Well that never happened. But the events have just grown and grown and the international community have been incredible to me I've got to say.

You know, I've got some of the best global speakers on medicinal cannabis and they do so willingly, you know, they, what do you need Lucy? How can we help?

You know, is usually the attitude from most of them. And that, that extends to today.

I think forming the Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association with Teresa Nicoletti has been a real highlight because, you know, I understood that I was just one person and, you know, I might have skills in a particular area, but I'm certainly don't, I don't have the legal gravitas or I don't have the, even the administrative skills or the scientific skills or any of those kind of, you know, additional skills because there's so much involved in, in the medicinal cannabis community.

So basically AMCA was formed to be the I guess the extension of, of UIC.

I know that when UIC sort of folds down and, and it will, and in the not too distant future, because, you know, I can't keep doing this for too long. 10 years has taken a lot of my life and I want to retire with my husband, but I know that, I know that it will continue to work.

Sorry.

[00:18:05] Kel: I think you've earned that Lucy.

[00:18:09] Lucy: I guess, I guess AMCA was my exit strategy and I feel really Happy and excited by AMCA. We've got a beautiful community there that's, you know, has over 500 members now. They're all people that are really deeply committed to medicinal cannabis. And so I know that, you know, I give the movement longevity.

So when I step away, it will continue, you know, and we've done things through and for like setting up a compassionate access scheme for patients, which was always something I wanted to do, but couldn't do alone. You know, we went to the government to ask for help, the current government. They'd said in opposition that this was what was needed, they were critical of the, the previous government.

We need a compassionate access scheme. When they got into government, I went straight to the health minister and said, okay, when you're in opposition, you said this, we need a compassionate access scheme. We've worked out how we can do it, but we need your help. And, you know, to get told, no, sorry, we don't do that in government, you know but we've done it anyway.

So with any progress that we've made, I feel like we've made despite help from government. So it really has been a struggle to, to make any headway in the medicinal cannabis space. And I think that's shameful, but I think people don't that are in those high decision making positions, they don't realise what.

the value of medicinal cannabis is to Australian patients now and what it can be to Australia generally in terms of an industry and, you know, future tax dollars and you know, future benefits to the healthcare system and the insurance, health insurance system. They, they don't realise what a diamond they've got sitting there.

They're too busy, you know, pouring rubbish on it or, you know disdain or, you know, one of my biggest problems with this symposium has been finding somebody to open it. You know, because people don't want to be associated with it still. Why? A decade later, when we've got millions of patients that are accessing it, why are we still having this problem?

You know? So, education, the need for education is going to be ongoing but first you've got to break down that stigma. And, and that's tough.

[00:20:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, there's the ripple effects of the work you do and it's led to things like AMCA and I had a chat with Eric, Eric Chan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was giving you your flowers on, on the podcast and say none of this would be possible without you. So to see someone like him, You know, who's kind of up and coming energetic. Like you said, it's like it takes so many different people. It really takes like a whole village to, to, to manage something as complex as this.

And, you know, there is some hope, I think in, in, you know, the younger generation. I sound old saying that. Yeah,

[00:21:05] Lucy: no,

I understand completely what you're saying. And I think it's, I find it a little frustrating. Some are just coming, waltzing in and thinking, Oh, right. Okay. I'm an entrepreneur and I'm going to make a lot of money here, but they don't understand or appreciate the fight that's gone to get us to this point.

And yeah. But, but not only that, but the fact that this is really about patients, it's about human beings and, and how well they are and how they're dealing with illness or injury. And that some of them don't even see that. They, they just see the dollar signs and that's kind of one of the low points. I suppose of the, of the decade of the journey has been seeing how that has become.

So at first I think it was a little insidious, but now it's glaring, it's like this glaring red flag where patients aren't given proper quality of care because they're seen as a customer rather than as a patient and it's making a sale rather than writing a prescription. You know? So that's the sad reality.

You know, to be honest, that's what makes me think, Oh, I can't do this anymore. I need to leave it to the Eric Chans of the world and to the young people who, who do actually have a heart and still can see through all that shine to what's really at the heart of the problem. And that's patient.

[00:22:38] Kel: Yeah, exactly.

And I'd love to just talk about the documentary In Plain Sight and the need for a professional public education campaign in Australia which we don't currently have. Something that's centralised. Something that's not brand focused. You know what I mean? Sorry, I shouldn't like specify brands, but just any brand, you know, saying this is, and just putting their name on it because you know, then to some extent there's some kind of manipulation, there's some like corporate manipulation going on, you know, and it's a fine line isn't it, to, to work because obviously you need the and you need to be able to get things like, I'd like to talk about the upcoming documentary in Plain Sight that it needs to be made, but all.

So you need the funds for that, but also, you know, we can't have like, as Eric put it, like nefarious characters in the space. And there is really a need to purge those characters in order to, to kind of evolve out of this just kind of, you know, profiteering mindset.

[00:23:40] Lucy: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Kel: Yeah.

[00:23:42] Lucy: I agree 100%. It is very hard to ask for money.

Look back in 2020 we fought for and won a Senate inquiry into the barriers to patient access because at the time there was so many barriers. It was, it was really difficult, you know, as I said, it was an uphill push against government trying to push back all the time. But one of the recommendations of that Senate inquiry was a public awareness campaign.

[00:24:08] Lucy: Now that's never happened and, and you know, and the problem is it's a Schedule 8 medicine and you can't advertise Schedule 8 medicines, but there's never been just that awareness campaign. Which I think, you know, and that's kind of what I've tried to do through United in Compassion through creating Medicinal Cannabis Awareness Week where people aren't talking about brands or products or how much it costs but talking about how the medicine, how the endocannabinoid system works.

You know, the science of it, you know, why cannabis works so well, you know, the fact that we're kind of hardwired to respond to cannabis in the way that we do all of that needs to be explained and there's very little opportunity to be able to do that. I mean, we've set up Teach Hub, which is a, you know, accredited training for health professionals and that's very brand agnostic.

We've done that on purpose. It's not associated with branding, it's just associated with the science and the medicine that, that is there for medicinal cannabis. But the documentary needs to kind of, it needs to tell the story of how cannabis has evolved in Australia. And not gloss over the bad parts, because there's a lot of bad about what's happening now, you know.

We need the regulators to step up, and actually get a little bit interested in cannabis. And to make sure that professionals are maintaining their professional standings of, you know, that they're not, that they're not going crazy. And some of them are, some of them have just been literally lured to the dark side by the, by the opportunity of the massive money they can make you know, through all these vertically integrated clinics.

It's kind of, it's alarming, it's, it's frightening because, you know, patients are getting ripped off. They're not getting, they're not getting the benefit of a proper consultation that looks at their, you know, all their health conditions and their other medications and it, it's not collaborative with their regular doctor, it's just make a sale, make as many sales as you can, give them whatever.

You know, I, I've heard of consultations that start with What do you want? As in, what product do you want? Now, on what other planet do we go, what planet do you go with doctor and just say, Oh, I want some opiates, this, you know, I would like benzodiazepines because I just want them, you know, it's,

[00:26:38] Kel: yeah, it's no contact.

[00:26:42] Lucy: You know, but, but that has been allowed to happen because regulators have been disinterested or had their eye off the ball and it's been opportunistic, you know but, you know, there's plenty of regulation there, but just enforce the bloody regulation for God's sake, you know because patients are being ripped off and put at risk.

You know, we know that there are a certain cohort of patients that shouldn't have high THC flower prescribed to them. You know, that's a red flag. It should be a red flag. Yet there are some people that don't even ask that question. Do you know what I mean? So I think they're the kind of reasons why In Plain Sight needs to be made because we need to talk about the great things about medicinal cannabis, but also the not so great things.

We need patients to be aware that they may be that there are predatory behaviors out there. Yeah. And they may be a victim of a predatory behavior.

[00:27:43] Kel: Yeah. And

[00:27:44] Lucy: how do they, how are they aware? How do they protect themselves from that? You know, because if you're, yeah, if are really unwell and you're literally just trying to stay well or stay alive -you don't need that added burden of, you know but there's been no help in any of that. And there's been, it's been very difficult to raise the money for that. I would have thought that there were enough good companies that would support that. But, you know, I'm also not good at asking for money. So I suppose that's the other, that's the other part of it.

But.

[00:28:18] Kel: Yeah, I, I, I used to be in sales, so I'm alright asking people for money, to be honest. And I'll be honest, Lucy, when I saw you know, the 16 minute preview of In Plain Sight, which is on YouTube now, and I'll link that in the show notes, I was a little bit disappointed to see the lack of investment into getting this made, but I really would, you know, press upon anyone who has the economic means to do this, to really consider how this will benefit everyone and ultimately your brand as well.

So there's nothing to be lost from delving into the historical, political, and societal aspects of this is only things to be gained because knowledge is power. And we really need something like this to try and. You know, blend scientific insights with personal stories and really reveal the human side of the issue and try and shift people's mindsets because, you know, stay as they are.

So

[00:29:11] Lucy: it's it's one of those situations where, you know, I mean, media are often interested in medicinal cannabis stories, but the story, if you're going to tell it properly, it's so big, it's so complicated that people lose interest. So you have to tell it in a way that kind of. You know, like walks you through the journey you know, gives you a little bit of that science, which is really evolving and exciting and, you know human stories, now we can tie that to science, you know, it's not just what somebody's posted on Facebook or, you know, on the internet that's kind of it.

Is this true or not? You know, it's, you know, there's, there's studies going on globally that are proving the benefits of cannabis and the potential for cannabis to fight cancers. You know, we might've been naive in thinking that Dan could make an oil and that it would help his cancer situation. But the long picture is no, that actually wasn't naive.

That just hasn't happened yet. There are people working on this, you know? Yeah. That's exciting. You know, if, you know, cancer is such a scourge on our population globally imagine if there's something that can help, you know, can help reduce those cancer deaths. You know, it's not one other product, one of the medication that I can think of on the planet that does so much for so many different conditions, you know, and, I think we're past that point where, you know, I used to have so many doctors in particular say to me, oh, that sounds too good to be true.

It can't be true, you know. Well, actually, it is true. And if you knew about the endocannabinoid system and, and got yourself educated, you would understand that, yeah, this is actually very true. There's a reason why it works for so many different conditions. So. I think, you know one day, I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime, but I think one day will eventually, the penny will drop and people will start to realise this is a wonder drug.

It's not everything to everybody and it's not without some element of harm or risk to some patients, which is quite easily mitigated with education and When, when the aim of the, the clinical professional is to help the patient, not just to help you bank balance. So, you know, that's why this story needs to be told because I literally want to rub off.

The rest of the, the dirt that's sticking to cannabis and just really show people that, you know, this is something that's very special. Even the idea of being a company that goes about whether you're producing cannabis or selling cannabis through a prescription model or whatever. You can make money out of cannabis with, with integrity and with, you know, in an ethical way that is still putting the patient front and centre, you know.

People should look at this as an opportunity rather than a challenge that they have to try and circumvent and get around by breaking the law or, you know, or, or ignoring regulations. So, all those messages, I guess, somehow or other, I want to tie up into In Plain Sight. I'm really lucky that the producer that I'm working with who has done so much on a really small budget, but we're at the point where we can't do any more without budget, but he gets it.

Do you know what I mean? He, he has thoroughly delved into cannabis in a way that I never expected. to the point where he's, you know, kind of chomping at the bit. I want to do this. And I know you will tell the story the right way.

[00:32:52] Kel: Yeah,

[00:32:54] Lucy: Hopefully with UIC, with the next symposium. If there's some money left after that, I'll, you know, if no other, if nothing else happens, I will, you know, try and direct some of that to In Plain Sight. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's a really expensive event. It's about educating as many people as we possibly can to change their perceptions and to take away some of that stigma to support the patients, you know, like veterans who are still really hitting brick walls when it comes to dealing with, with DVA. You know, there's so many reasons to do the symposium and hopefully there'll be something left at the end of it that we can direct to in plain sight.

But really and truly, it's time that this industry in Australia stepped up and, and gave back, I think because as you said, it's only going to better their situation in the future. It's not, it's not about brands or whatever. It's about acceptance. And

I

think we're still, you know, we're still quite away from that.

Yeah.

[00:33:59] Kel: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. How, how far off do you think we are from, from At being at a point where, you know, it's accepted, say like CBD is just the norm and it's, yeah, people take that for their aches and pains like they would Panadol.

[00:34:15] Lucy: Yeah, look oh my gosh, I would like to say it's not too far away but, you know, I mean the reality is, it's, it's, you know, the way our system's set up to, you know, to get anything on the PBS it has to be registered on the ARTG, to be on the ARTG it has to have all these clinical trials and, Who's got the money to pour into clinical trials for something you can't patent, you know?

[00:34:39] Kel: Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:40] Lucy: You know, there's a lot of reasons why the clinical trial evidence that some doctors demand just doesn't exist. There are other levels of evidence which are more appropriate in this place, but. How do you tell that story to somebody who's just got this narrow tunnel vision? We're 10 years down the track, I think when, when we realised the way cannabis was going to be regulated, and this was kind of eight months and a day after the legislation passed, it was like, oh my god, this is going to take forever.

And it has, it's taken a long time to break down all these barriers. that have been put there intentionally in, you know, in a lot of cases.

[00:35:21] Kel: Yeah, I was going to say that, yeah.

[00:35:23] Lucy: It's but, you know, on the flip side, we've got a lot of patients accessing it. The genie's out of the bottle now. This ain't going away.

Patients who are relieving their symptoms with cannabis and are taking their medicine responsibly?

Why are we preventing them from being able to drive? You know.

[00:35:41] Kel: It's discriminatory, isn't it? It's, it's nothing other than discrimination because if you will allow people to drive on opioids, which come with a little label saying, don't operate heavy machinery. And, and, you know, you can be quote unquote fine and no one's going to like say anything if you just swerve off the road or whatever.

But yeah, you can't take, yeah, you can't take like a balanced oil that's relieving arthritis.

[00:36:06] Lucy: I think with a, with a potential, well, with potentially a change in government with a, with an election at any rate. We need a Senate inquiry, again now. We need a Senate inquiry that really digs deep into the issues around medicinal cannabis.

But more than that, we need a government that's going to implement the recommendations of such an inquiry. Because that's, you're going to have inquiries to the house, the cows come home, and if the government of the day couldn't give a flying whatever, they'll just sit on it and do nothing. And that's what's traditionally happened with medicinal cannabis.

Lots of positive recommendations are made for education, for public awareness you know, all of that and then nothing happens. The compassionate access, nothing happens until, you know, it's like we are the people that are doing it for ourselves but we shouldn't have to because that's what we elect government for.

[00:37:02] Kel: Yeah, that's it. And when it continues to transform like thousands or millions of lives for the better, then it's undeniable. And, and I guess it's about like, what kind of nation do we want to live in? Do we want to live in one where people have an opportunity to improve their quality of life and live better, whatever their circumstance, or, or one where we're just constantly battling illness.

We're just getting ill and just. Taking, they're just making us more ill and it's just round and round we go. And yeah, I, I didn't put this in the questions, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts, Lucy, on like what role do you think big pharna presence is plays in the kind of pushback and the kind of problems, that we're facing ultimately?

[00:37:49] Lucy: Oh. I used to think it would have been significant, but I'm not so sure now. They just get on the bandwagon. You know, it's very much like big tobacco. They're just on the bandwagon. Because very quickly, you know, it's, it's follow the money. When people see money in something, they're attracted to it like light.

So big tobacco, big farmer, they're, they're just getting involved. So Australia needs to kind of recognize the opportunities that we have in terms of an Australian industry. At the moment, our Australian growers are not very well supported. They have to really battle an unlevel playing field where it's much cheaper, easier to import a product from somewhere like Canada.

And they've got to try and compete with that.

You know, we know that we're being flooded with international products that are, you know unspecified quality. There's not the quality testing, yet we expect these really high quality standards if you're to grow in Australia under Australian conditions.

So it's an unlikely playing field. So, but you know, there's so much opportunity there. We could be exporting globally. We, you know, Australia has a really good reputation for being clean and green. And you know, why aren't we taking advantage of that? Why aren't we helping growers in Australia compete globally?

So in my mind, there's a lot of people in government across a lot of sectors that are really asleep at the wheel. And, you know, that's frustrating and makes me more than just a little bit mad, but you know You've just got to hope that the next lot will do better, but, you know, I kind of sense that it's still going to be a lot of, a lot of push you know, and all of this speaks back to why it's important to have something like In Plain Sight, because a documentary like that is not just about one aspect of the sector, it's about a whole lot you know, it's about how we can move forward.

Maximize support for Australian industry, because I don't think there would be an Australian that wouldn't like to take an Australian product if they had that option if it was cost competitive, and we certainly know that the quality would be probably superior. Yeah,

[00:40:07] Kel: yeah, the quality would be like A star and also from like an environmental standpoint, it's, it's, you know, it's easier on on the planet, less carbon, less, less transportation.

So there's a lot of positives.

[00:40:22] Lucy: Yeah. Look, there's more positives than negatives. And I guess that's why I'm still here after a decade, because I, yeah. But yeah. I, I think at the end of the day, we've gotta keep reminding ourselves, you know, the way you introduce this session, talking about how it's helping so many people to live a better life.

That's what's important. The rest of this is important, but that's got to, that's got to remain the focus.

[00:40:49] Kel: Absolutely. It's it's, it's life changing. It really, it really has been for myself and my partner. We both live with well, I've got severe endometriosis and And I've got a few other chronic back issues from a car crash.

So, yeah, I, I know what it's like to have to manage chronic pain and, and acute bouts of pain as well and how difficult that is and the stigma you come across. And I wouldn't have been able to start this. Podcasts or have this platform at all if it wasn't for the stability that it's given me and the ways it's kept my life back my functionality back There was times like a few years ago when I couldn't even go out for a walk I just wasn't getting really any exercise at all and just on the end down and not knowing you know what ways out of that and you just feel like you're in a sunken place and I think anyone who appreciates, like, the life of the mind, I know, the way I do, like, it's not a good feeling.

No one wants to feel out of it. Like, they can't think for themselves. It's, it's a horrible, a horrible feeling. So, yeah, and, and that's just me, me and my partner, but I know it's millions of people and I just feel like I just want to show gratitude wherever I can because I'm just immensely grateful for everything that you do.

Lucy and the whole community around this that continue to be so brave in the face of a lot of adversity and challenges. So, thank you again. Well,

[00:42:12] Lucy: I mean, I think Australia can only benefit if we get more people back to work because they're feeling, you know, they're feeling that they can work. And that's been a common story that I've heard over the last decade.

But the perception still remains that cannabis users are, you know, they're like sloths, you know, they're, they're disinterested, they're not motivated, you know, how many times have you heard that, where it's actually quite the opposite, it actually gives you capacity to be a functional working human being again.

You know, so that kind of thing doesn't really, how do you get that through? How do you, I think, had I understood really the, the history of prohibition of cannabis and all the misinformation and myths that have been instilled on us, you know, and I mean I, I carry that in my own personal attitude. I, I, I would never have started this if I hadn't realized how big that mountain is to climb where you've got to break down that initial barrier, which is how people actually look at cannabis.

And for most people in Australian society, it's with an element of disgust and disdain. Because I think people that use it are just lazy, they, you know, they're not motivated. They, they're just doing it because they want to opt out. Well, no, it's actually the opposite. People are using it because they want to opt back into life.

[00:43:43] Kel: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because it's not an easy track to walk. Like, like we were saying earlier for a patient, there's so much stigma. You can have practitioners who, like you say, can show like predatory behavior. You've got so much to navigate. The truth is, it's easier to just take some pills.

[00:44:02] Lucy: Yeah, that is it is and you can probably get them covered on the PBS and so it doesn't it doesn't cost you much money Yeah

That's how cannabis should be, you know If I think about where we would like to get to it should be like that where it could be like any other Medication you find your doctor your regular doctor that you see every week for every other medication that you might be on or every other condition that you might have or just for your regular health checks, that GP is happy to talk to you about cannabis because they understand it, they, they've been educated on it.

If they're a new grad, they were taught about it at uni, you know, your nurse learned about it at, you know, through nursing practice. through, through her education. You know, but that's, we're not at that point yet. I guess, I'm not, that's where I want to, that's where I would like Australia to get to, where everybody, everybody knows about it.

There's no shame in talking about it. You can talk about it anywhere, any place. I mean, God, we used to have code words for talking about cannabis, you know, because we were too ashamed to say it out loud because people would look at you like you were a bad person if you said that word.

[00:45:16] Kel: Right.

[00:45:18] Lucy: You know, I mean, in some respects we've come a long way since then.

That was 2014 and I'm grateful for that, but we still have a long way to go. Yeah, acceptance, acceptance to a patient is everything, I think.

[00:45:32] Kel: Absolutely. Yeah. Empathy, acceptance, being treated like a human being who, you know, wants what's best for themselves.

[00:45:40] Lucy: Yeah. And with, you know, dignity and respect, you, you shouldn't have to go in hospital or go on a trip and worry that you're going to get picked up at the airport with your prescribed cannabis or that you're going to be told to take that home you can't have that in this facility because the nurses don't know how to deal with that, you know.

There's a lot to do. And, and I guess one thing I probably could use as an example that. It really shows where we're at today. In 2014, when I put on the first symposium, I, I invited Brett Holmes, who was the head of the ANMF in New South Wales, the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation. And he came along kind of a bit reluctantly.

He was just being polite. And I remember him saying to me, Lucy, I can't stay. You know, he'd flown up from Sydney, said, I can't stay. I'm here for the official opening. It was being opened by Premier Mike Baird. And he said, but I'll have to get back to Sydney. Well, he ended up staying for the two days and came to the evening function that night, which surprised me that he stayed so long.

And he said to me at the end, I can't believe I didn't know about this. I can't believe what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing. This is amazing. And the ANMF has been a really big support. And I've been really proud to be able to bring the ANMF along on the medicinal cannabis journey.

Olivia Newton John, just before her death, she spoke at the Symposium in 2023, I'm going to say, at the Nurses Conference.

We had a Nurses Conference sponsored by the ANMF at the Symposium. Olivia presented when she was extremely, extremely ill, not long before she died. But it was wonderful. Do you know what I mean? I got so much from that and I was so proud that the nurses were standing up for cannabis and standing up for patients.

The following year they sponsored.

This, this year they were going to sponsor and they were going to have a trade exhibition. They've just pulled back on that. They've just withdrawn and they've said that they can't, whilst ever there is the prescribing problems that are going on with Nurse Nurse practitioners in particular and this is going back to those things that we were talking about where, where clinics are becoming all about profits and not about patients.

 I've since written to them and said, this is exactly why you need to be here because we need to encourage nurses to do the right thing and nurse practitioners to prescribe safely.

You know, we need to talk to APRA and hear from APRA about professional responsibilities and professional boundaries. You know, that's why you should be involved. But so. You know, I guess it's knockbacks like that where you think, Oh my God, we've just gone back, I don't know, five years, 10 years in that particular aspect.

And we know now that there are so many nurses and first responders that are using it to help manage their chronic conditions and their PTSD.

So we've actually gone backwards and this is because of behaviours, which I don't blame the ANMF. I can see why they've done it. They're responding to the current climate which is not particularly nice, you know, some aspects of it, but that's gonna hurt patients.

That's actually just set us all back.

[00:49:14] Kel: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of reactivity and,

uh, and I understand where they're coming from too, but there's still a lot of kind of like fear and It seems to be stirred up so easily by the media and, when there's already that stigma and bias there, it just seems to spill over so easily.

[00:49:31] Lucy: Yeah. So, you know, I mean, that's why we've got to encourage industry to come at this with integrity, to do the right thing. Because they're ruining it. for everybody. And to them, it might just be a business. And it's all about, you know, making a fast buck and making plenty of it.

But for patients, it's, it's rather more important than that. And so if you set things back the way they are, you know, in, in terms of a big organisation, one of the biggest unions in Australia, withdrawing their support You know, apart from the fact that they should be ashamed of themselves, it's going to ultimately hurt their business.

Yeah, that's the irony of it all, isn't it? Because, yeah, it will ultimately lead them to not be able to profit from people's pain anymore, which they shouldn't be doing in the first place. And ultimately, money that you make from a business is an exchange of energy. And if they focus more on on purpose and then that would just come naturally anyway.

I do, I do believe that. I mean, but yeah, these people don't belong in, in healthcare at all. So yeah, that's disappointing to, to hear that. And, and yeah, I, do hope things, shift. For the better and yeah, for those who are listening who want to support In Plain Sight and want to support the mission and want to be on kind of the right side of history with this, what's, what's something that they can do?

What's like a meaningful action do you think that they can take to make a difference?

Look, I just think always support anybody that you know that's using medicinal cannabis for, for a condition, you know, don't talk to, you talk to them about it like it's a, an acceptable commonplace thing because that's how it should be.

In terms of supporting the documentary, I mean, if you can give a few dollars. Please, if you can, if you can give a lot of dollars, well that would be awesome. You know, I, I, I guess I just, I need people's help now. It, it, it, yeah, I guess we've just gotten to that point. I mean, it, it, it will either happen or it won't.

And I guess that's really up to the Australian public to decide.

But if they want to support it, they want to see it, and I think it is an important story. It's not Dan's story anymore. This is about Australia and about Australian patients. It's their story. So you know, if it's important to you, just contribute in any way you can.

But at the moment it comes down to finances to get it told.

[00:51:57] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. I urge anyone to support in plain sight, however you can, because we really need this public awareness campaign, this education. We need something that I guess we can all be anchored in when these kind of curveballs are getting thrown at everyone.

 It's a solid foundation that everyone can stand on. So yeah, I urge everyone to support it and I'll link it in the show notes. So. So people can go to the GoFundMe and do that.

[00:52:23] Lucy: That'd be great. Thank you. Thank you so much,

[00:52:26] Kel: Lucy, for your time and being so candid. And I hear what you're saying.

It's not something you can just a quick chat you can have in 10, 15 minutes. It's a very complex societal issue, a political issue. It's a lot of things. And for everyone listening yeah, just be very mindful about patients and the journey that they're on and And, and realize that this is really life changing for a lot of people.

So we need to support that.

[00:52:51] Lucy: Thanks Kel..

[00:52:54] Kel: Thanks so much, Lucy. You take care and all the best for the symposium and the doco.

[00:52:58] Lucy: Thanks so much. Bye now.

[00:53:00] Kel: And that, dear listeners, brings to close episode 13 of Phoenix Sound. Today's conversation with Lucy Haslam was a powerful reminder of the impact one person's determination can have, not just on policy, but on people's lives. Three key takeaways I'm taking from our discussion today were that advocacy creates real change, Lucy's journey shows us that even in the face of immense personal loss, persistence and purpose can shift community mindsets and even national policy.

The second takeaway for me was how education is crucial here to erasing the stigma and misinformation still surrounding medical cannabis. And just how vital projects like In Plain Sight are in challenging outdated narratives. I also think that today was a really good reminder that our voices matter and the collective impact they can have when everyone's together on the same team advancing the same cause.

Whether it's supporting ethical Prescribing practices or pushing for better regulations or simply sharing informed perspectives. We all have a role to play in shaping the world we live in. If you'd like to support United in Compassion or help fund the documentary in plain sight, check out the links in the show notes.

Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. 

For decades, the conversation around plant-based medicine has been clouded by stigma, misinformation, and regulatory roadblocks. But that’s starting to change.

Stuart Marsh—Chief Commercial Officer of Cannim and a key contributor to the groundbreaking docuseries High Science®—joins me to discuss how science, patient stories, and a shifting cultural landscape are transforming the way we think about full-spectrum health.

We talk about the synergistic effect vs. the entourage effect, the economic case for new treatment approaches (spoiler: it could save the NHS £12-15K per patient, per year), and why word-of-mouth is outpacing government messaging when it comes to education.

Stuart explains how a 90-year-old in a retirement home might be more open to new therapies than your local regulator, the challenges of navigating strict advertising laws, and why the research-backed approach is the only way to move forward.

Also in this episode:

— The real meaning of full-spectrum medicine (and why it’s not just about THC or CBD percentages)— Why big pharma is struggling to adapt to individualised, plant-based solutions.— How the TGA’s heavy-handed regulations make it nearly impossible for providers to educate patients.— The ripple effect of healthcare choices—on families, communities, and economies.— My own experience of navigating a broken system as a patient with endometriosis—and what I wish I had known sooner.

It’s a conversation about science, policy, and the power of patient-led change—and it’s one you won’t want to miss.

EPISODE LINKS

High Science® | S1 E4 - Medical: Big Pharma Alternative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P5o5jS2INc

Cannim's website: https://cannim.com/

Stuart's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-marsh-503a762/

Learn more about the Endocannabinoid System

SHOW UPDATES

Since recording this episode at the start of January - Cannareviews has returned!

Founder Steven Ng shared this update with us:

'After a few months of difficulty, Canna Reviews is live again for patients to continue educating themselves about alternative medicines. Patients can keep having proactive discussions with their health care practitioners armed with a bit more knowledge and supported by their community. Canna Reviews has worked with the TGA to understand the regulatory requirements of such a patient focused platform and is glad to be back. The Canna Reviews you know and love is the same as before bar a few minor restrictions and changes. It's had a fresh design update and most information is still available except for pages on how to access doctors/clinics. Patients now have to validate their accounts before gaining access. We look forward to continuing to support everyone!'

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Kel Myers: I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound. Today, I'm joined by Stuart Marsh, Chief Commercial Officer at Cannim, and a passionate advocate for innovation in healthcare. As a key contributor to the groundbreaking new doco series, High Science, which explores the evolving role of cannabis in healthcare, Stu and his team are leading the way in this field.

Together we discussed how HIGH SCIENCE is breaking down stigmas surrounding cannabis through relatable education, storytelling and humour.

The importance of ongoing research in shaping perceptions and building trust in this emerging field, and why listening to patients experiences is key to evolving healthcare and delivering real world impact. Stay with us.

Now, if there's one thing British expats in Australia would love to ask each other when they meet, it's where you're from.

And sure enough, after a quick sound check.

Yeah, you sound fine. You sound great. Do I sound okay?

[00:00:55] Stuart Marsh: You sound very northern.

[00:00:58] Kel Myers: Yes, yeah, it's not left me at all.

[00:01:01] Stuart Marsh: Where are you from?

[00:01:02] Kel Myers: Originally from, yeah, the North West. So, I grew up just outside of, between like Preston and Bolton.

[00:01:09] Stuart Marsh: Oh, yeah.

[00:01:10] Kel Myers: Yeah, yeah, and then lived in Manchester, like after uni.

[00:01:13] Stuart Marsh: How long have you been here?

[00:01:15] Kel Myers: I've been here for 12 years. So yeah, the accent hasn't shifted at all. It's it's here to stay I think.

[00:01:21] Stuart Marsh: I know that feeling.

[00:01:22] Kel Myers: Yeah, you sound great. Obviously you're from the Northern Hemisphere as well, Stu.

[00:01:26] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, yeah. I'm from, I'm from the opposite end of the country to you. I'm from Royal Tunbridge Wells originally.

Um, yeah, but I've been here 20 years, so it's funny. I had two reactions from my friends to, to the, uh, High Science episode. One was just people taking the piss out of me for one second of me wearing a hairnet and the other, which is nice of them, you know, and then the other one was my English friends going, Oh, you sound so Australian.

To which I replied, I have lived here for 20 years.

[00:02:00] Kel Myers: Yeah,

[00:02:01] Stuart Marsh: yeah,

[00:02:02] Kel Myers: yeah, that's it.

Thanks for joining me Stu.. And welcome to Phoenix Sound.

Talking about medical cannabis, it's such a fascinating topic to explore and it's one that I feel, has kind of found me in a way. One of my earlier guests Sam Costa, she's a nurse practitioner and she's launched an app for women's health called CHARLI and she said to me something quite insightful.

She's like, where you start isn't often where you end up and I guess in our journies that's been literally the case. I'm so happy to be, having these conversations with people like yourself and I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Kylie O'Brien about the women's health study that Cannim is doing and exploring whether medical cannabis can help alleviate period pain, which is an amazing thing to be exploring and an area that, is so under resourced and underfunded. So it was really such a delightful chat with her.

She was great and you guys are like breaking new ground, aren't you? Medcan is transforming the way we approach healthcare. It's such an exciting time, isn't it?

[00:03:02] Stuart Marsh: Well, I think it's really interesting from a women's point of view as well, women's health point of view, because what we know about the endocannabinoid system is that the second highest number of receptors is actually in the female reproductive system, and so for women, I think it's certainly a new and novel way to approach some of the traditional issues that they've had that modern science has not been able to resolve for them.

[00:03:27] Kel Myers: That's definitely something that I've experienced in my own patient journey with endometriosis, severe endometriosis, and my partner has endo and chronic pelvic pain. So it's been quite the journey for us in terms of understanding the science. And I know Cannim's focus a lot around the science of the products and the quality and it's interesting it's a rabbit hole, like, we continue to go down, to be honest there's always something to kind of learn and know, and I think that the overarching thing for us is just to know that, with more traditional big pharma medications, like opioids, that are focused on masking the pain, the Med Can is focused on modulating the pain and making sure that, it's manageable and has genuine therapeutic benefits that these pills just don't have.

We are at, an interesting, juncture are we, you know, in healthcare and obviously you are the Chief Commercial Officer. You're the one like juggling all of this I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on managing the complexities of all of this and all these regions frameworks and everything's evolving in different countries at different paces so, how does that impact the way that you communicate the benefits of the medicine and What challenges do you face like say here in Australia when it comes to like walking the line of adhering to the TGA guidelines whilst ensuring that patients and clinicians understand the value of medicinal cannabis?

[00:04:49] Stuart Marsh: Yeah it's an interesting conundrum to be in really.

We often talk about kind of going to the first part of your point, it's such a nascent industry. We often talk about, you know, we're driving a car down a road that is being built as we drive, right? And we've got an end destination that we want to get to, but we might have to take a few detours and, you know, side roads and interesting places to get to where, where we need to be.

And that's the whole industry. And I think some people can navigate that effectively, and other companies find that very, very difficult, you know, to have a set idea. And if they don't get where they're going, then they really struggle. So I think dealing in a, an entirely new industries, you know, certainly an interesting challenge from a communications point of view, as you rightly said, I mean, you go to California and you can say entirely different things to what you can say here in Australia, but it still comes down to the fact that you know, we're dealing with medicine and we're dealing with patient health and you, you can't be flippant about that. You, you can't, you have to be very, very conscious of not making any kind of claims that are not fully substantiated, and I think that's something we're very, very conscious of and that's why I have a bit of sympathy, really, for what the TGA are doing in Australia, because, you know, there's a lot of excitement and there's a lot of talk about, you know, they should be building the industry and helping us get bigger.

That's not their job. Their job isn't to make an industry be there or not be there. Their job is to look after patient health and patient welfare. There have been some well reported incidences where patients probably have not been looked after the way they should have been. People are just with people just chasing, you know, some easy money.

And I think it's fundamentally important that we recognise the need to, you know to what's the right phrase to, to, to just be very mindful of that and be careful about what we say, how we say it, when we say it, and that, to be honest, is why we're diving deeply into research, because I think the only way we're going to be able to change government point of view lawmaker point of view is with evidence and with solid proper evidence.

And so that's, you know, let's yes, let's go out and help as many patients as we can as quickly as we can, but let's make sure we're gathering feedback and data along the way that will allow us to, to benefit more people by then being able to communicate effectively.

[00:07:21] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. I was actually going to ask you how important you think ongoing research is in shaping, reshaping, if you will, public perceptions as a legitimate treatment and yeah, as you said, it's, it's really important.

[00:07:34] Stuart Marsh: Well, I think there's two, there's two sides to reshaping it.

One is people communicating their lived experiences.

And another is the research, right? And I think different people will change their minds about these things for one of those two reasons. So it's funny, you know, we were talking earlier about how we kind of ended up in this space. My background is alcohol.

I spent 25 years in the booze industry, right? On brands like Stella and XXXX and Yellow Tail and Jim Beam and the like. I don't have a medical background whatsoever. And I was excited by medical cannabis because I'm an innovator and to be at the ground floor of this exciting new thing that it was clearly inevitable, was really exciting for me.

And, and I'd never used cannabis before I joined this company, like not even at uni, right? I didn't even have a Bill Clinton experience where I didn't inhale. So if you ask my friends, who is the least likely person to be involved in a medical cannabis company and promoting it around the world, they would all be pointing at me and my, my experience was changed by, you know, I'm talking to patients who have had life changing impacts, and that's what I love about what we're able to do on the HIGH SCIENCE show, is that we're actually able to go out and interview people who are often the last people you would expect to be the people using and endorsing medical cannabis. And you listen to their stories and they're heartbreaking and, and the hope and the the just fundamental change in quality of lifestyle that they have by embracing something that they traditionally feared is incredible.

And I think we have to shout that from the rooftops. In conjunction with explaining to people why it works and demonstrating, you know, it's not just people going, Hey, it works for me. It's like, yes, it works for me. And here's why and how, and here's the proof that it does it. And I think if you can come from those two angles, you'll probably optimise the number of people that you can influence and reach.

[00:09:41] Kel Myers: Yeah that makes a lot of sense and just for our listeners that might not know about High Science. So, not only is Stu the CCO of Cannim, he's also a TV star. So, yeah, the High Science TV series that's created by the Emmy award winning producer David McKillop.

So, he's the genius behind like, Ice Road Truckers, which I love, and Deadliest Catch

it's on YouTube. I'll include it in the show notes so everyone can watch it for free. And Stu was the only international guest to be featured in the show. So there's an episode, it's episode Four - Medical: Big Pharma Alternative is the title of that. What was it like, Stu? Is that your first time being on on like a TV show?

[00:10:21] Stuart Marsh: Well, I was once an extra in an episode of Married With Children, but my first time being front of centre of the camera. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I just blow my own trumpet a little bit.

[00:10:36] Kel Myers: On the LinkedIn, you know.

[00:10:37] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, exactly. It was in and, and they went and filmed in England. Once they did a, they did three episodes of the Bundys Do England anyway.

But HIGH SCIENCE was an incredible journey. We've been involved with those guys for something like four years. You know, COVID got in the way, a lot of things, and you can't fly around the world and film an international TV show when, when you can't fly, right.

Yeah. So it's been, it's been something that's been in the making for a while. We, we first met the other executive producer who's a guy called Ed. Mclair About four years ago, and his vision is to use that that communication tool to help break down the stigma around medical cannabis again, he's someone that has found relief using cannabis.

I know he's he's his mom uses it for relief as well. And so he, he wanted to really be an advocate and, you know, to his credit, he managed to bring you know, Dave on board and we ended up with this incredible show which I think is, again, is groundbreaking, you know it's on YouTube because the only way to be able to tell the story that they wanted to tell without networks censoring it effectively was to be on YouTube.

And I think the response has been incredible. So, so yeah, it's a, it's a privilege to be part of it. Cannim is the only international company that are in the show. And I'm hoping that season two, you'll get to see a lot more of the stuff that we've shot in Europe and in Jamaica, and hopefully we'll come and do some stuff down here in Australia as well.

[00:12:06] Kel Myers: It's such a great example of tackling the stigma surrounding cannabis and demonstrating, its scientific credibility through great storytelling and humour. There's so much humour in there and genuine care to bring these outdated stigmas to an end through, like, education and entertainment.

It's just such a beautiful fusion. Like you said, that two pronged approach. We need both, don't we? Yeah.

[00:12:28] Stuart Marsh: And that's what their vision always was. And, you know, they always say to me, Stu, if it's not entertaining, people won't watch it and you won't get any message across. So you have to have that balance between humour, science, you know, heartbreaking stories and, and, and what you know, David McKillop has proven himself in the past to be his own master storyteller, right? So, you know, Ice Road Truckers, Deadliest Catch and the like,, you know, they know how to make this thing entertaining and the reaction has been wonderful. And I'm really excited to see that continue to grow and give, give the industry a tool to communicate with the world effectively.

[00:13:05] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. It really does kind of bring to light the idea of the benefits of full spectrum cannabis and that's something I'd love to have a chat about because, It's coming up a lot in wellness circles but a lot of people I don't think really know what that means.

So I'd love if you could educate people on what that means and why it's so important patients get the full benefits of the plant, not just one thing.

[00:13:30] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. I mean, that's a good way of putting it is full benefits.

Probably the, I mean, again, no scientist, I'm an alcohol marketeer, right?

So full spectrum to me just means you're getting the whole of the plant rather than an isolated section of the plant.

What we know and professor Lumiere Hanouche is one of the guys credited with discovering anandamide, which is the endo cannabinoid or cannabinoid that the body creates often referred to as the runner's high and the like.

He's actually on our advisory board. Our brand and our study is named in his honour and one of the things that he always talks about is the synergistic effect. A lot of people call it the entourage effect, but he calls it the synergistic effect. 'cause the entourage effect is kind of the other cannabinoids and terpenes boosting up one of those elements.

But what he says is no, it's all of them working together in unity.

That actually is what's giving your body the benefits that you need, and if you just look for potency, if you just go, Hey, I need a 25 percent indica, it's going to be entirely different outcomes to a different, you know, 25 percent indica.

I actually, this is where my booze background helps. I often refer to it as, as, you know, kind of people think they like red wine, right? And so a lot of people, they do. Yeah. I like red wine. And so they just drink red wine. But as you learn more, you discover that there's different types of red wine and then you discover that there's actually a whole load of whether it comes from this region or that region actually makes a fundamental difference and then you learned actually the soil it was growing in makes a fundamental difference.

It's very similar with the different strains of cannabis so you might try, I don't know, Blue Dream or Black Triangle and go oh that didn't really have the effect I was looking for but it might be because it didn't have the the right build up of the full spectrum effects of the minor cannabinoids and terpenes that are actually going to optimise the care for you..

And that's why it's important to have so many. And that's why I think it's a challenge, challenging area for big pharma, because it's a plant that needs that variety for people to really discover the best effects. And then the other thing, Kel, sorry, I'll add to that is I think we're in an era now of the re emergence of traditional medicines.

So I think if you look at, you know, plant based medicines, not just cannabis, but you know, people are looking at psilocybin and the like, you look at Chinese herbal medicines, we're moving into an era in the world where Full spectrum idea is important. It's more important than just an isolate.

[00:16:11] Kel Myers: Yeah, that's so true. It really is. Even things like supplements, like I take curcumin every day, which is just a natural anti-inflammatory and Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just, you know, you just get it online. So yeah, it's, it's a good point. There's a lot of,

[00:16:27] Stuart Marsh: you're right to point out vitamins, you know, you start thinking about how you get vitamins.

Stop taking a. vitamin thing that just does one thing and understand how do you get it the way that nature intended for you to get it through a an appropriate mix of kind of plant based foods and the like. So I think there's going to be a huge re emergence in that whole industry. I think that's where we're headed.

And cannabis is really driving that.

[00:16:52] Kel Myers: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was going to ask you what trends you think are going to shape the future of the industry over the next few years. I was going to I was like, to be honest, I feel like everything in the world is moving at such a quick pace. kind of unpredictable pace at five years.

I don't know about you, but that feels like a long way away.

[00:17:12] Stuart Marsh: Well, I started this journey about five and a half years ago is when I joined Cannim.. And at the time I was making big, bold predictions that CBD would be legal in the UK, in Australia, sorry. And you know the legalisation would happen quickly across the world.

And actually when you look at it, Our world isn't that different to the world from a cannabis point of view isn't all that different to the to where it was five years ago. You know, France has done a trial, but they haven't really moved further with it. Germany's talked about legalisation, but they've kind of hidden that in the closet a little bit and done it in a strange way.

No other countries in Europe have really gone full on medical. Asia hasn't taken any steps closer. So I think you're right. I think Probably 5 to 10 years is the kind of time frame that we need for, for fundamental change. And again, it comes back to the proof. Lawmakers won't change, won't change unless they have confidence that it's safe and effective.

And, and that's, again, that comes back to why we're, we're doing that. I don't think you can go and knock on Japan's door and go, Hey, you should really allow your we can help you have an aging population and this, this really helps for aging people have a great sleep and wake up without pain.

But if you haven't got the proof that is the traditional form of proof that they require, they're just going to ignore you and listen to the stigmas that they've held for, you know, a hundred years.

[00:18:37] Kel Myers: True, true. And when it comes to that cohort as well of elderly people, say like 80 plus, like my Nana, she's 90 and she's probably one of the most tech savvy people like you'll ever meet, no joke, like she's got WhatsApp, but all the apps, like, she's, she's like, no worries, I can do that.

 And she's been asking me about CBD.

They're open minded to it. But also, like she said to me, she's in her nursing home literally educating the other people about it because they don't have mobile phones like she does. And it's like, how do we get the education to that cohort who aren't online?

And like you said, could really benefit from it.

[00:19:14] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. And that's where the word of mouth is fundamental, right? I had a similar experience just yesterday. My parents are in a retirement village and she called me yesterday, my mum, and put the manager of the retirement village on the phone because, you know, she'd watched the episode and went, Oh, hang on.

There's three or four people here that could benefit. How do I help them? So it's amazing. And it's just, you know, that's just how that, I think. How it works, there's a massive effect of one person telling many because one person, you know, especially when you're within you know, if you have endometriosis, you probably are in a chat group with many other people who have endometriosis.

If anyone finds something that works, they sure tell everybody else as quickly as possible. Right?

[00:20:04] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It feels like almost a duty of care. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:20:09] Stuart Marsh: Yeah. And that's where this, you know, kind of circling back to a question you asked me earlier about communication challenges within Australia.

That's where I think the TGA's approach is a bit heavy handed because if people are looking for help, We cannot communicate with them at the moment. We can't, you know, if they go on a Google search, we can't have the word cannabis on our website in Australia. Our clinic can't use the word cannabis or plant based medicines.

And so, If you are someone who is desperately looking for help, how on earth do you find the right help? And how do you actually get to people who are caring and trying to do the right thing instead of people who are just trying to flout the rules and go, well, screw it. I'll use the word cannabis until I'm shut down.

Yeah. Which of those two do you actually want your grandma to go to?

[00:21:04] Kel Myers: Yeah. Exactly. To be honest, I ask myself this question all the time. I'm always thinking of ways we can kind of problem solve this because it's just, yeah, it feels unfair and unjust. that so many patients aren't aware or people aren't aware that this is available to them.

And then you get there, like you said, you know, there's people that can be like nefarious characters who patients are vulnerable to because the industry is so opaque and so ambiguous because of the nature of sitting in that kind of, like purgatory, if you will. That it's just, it's just so difficult.

I had my own experiences for nearly two years of having a provider that basically was taking a piss, there's no other way to put it. Selling things way above the RRP. I was completely unaware. And it was kind of like a Plato's Cave situation where it's like, you don't know what you don't know.

And it's easy for someone to say, oh well you can go somewhere else, but I Also, you don't know what you don't know, so you're trusting these people, they're in the industry, and I'll just share with, with the listeners that, I don't know whether you remember this, Stu, but I actually reached out to Cannim after this situation had happened, because one of the reasons why I actually left this provider was because he wouldn't provide me with one of Cannim products.

Oh, okay. That says a lot, like the balanced oil, the Lumia balanced oil, I found Effective for my endometriosis symptoms and they were trying to substitute other ones that they had like, you know They were getting like obviously kickbacks from and I was there that you could go anywhere else until one day I was like, I just need to Google it and figure it out.

Quickly became apparent that this product was available. It was just being kept from me. So, you know, it's difficult as a patient to navigate all that and still keep going when to be honest, it's so much easier to just go to the doctor and get, you know, opioids basically.

[00:22:59] Stuart Marsh: It's nuts.

I

mean, there's so much to unpack in that.

So to me, I think, just allow us, it's okay, I accept that we can't push out advertising about medical cannabis, right? Get that. I think I understand that perfectly well, but if people are looking, allow us to communicate with people who are looking. So just to let us put the facts or what we do or, you know on our website, just so people can discover and not get trapped into that kind of experience that you talked about just there.

So I think that's a simple solution about the experience that you just talked about. I, you know, we, we have our own clinic here in Australia, we would never block anybody from taking something that they wanted just because we would rather they took our product.

Would we rather took our product? Yes. But our doctors don't operate that way.

 If we care for people in the right way, we will do well by doing good. If we try and force people onto our product, then we, you know, just ethically I can't get my head around that, and I run the clinics, so, so that's not something that we do.

[00:24:11] Kel Myers: I think a lot about equity and how important it is to treat people as individuals that even though you might have a specific condition and there's some general like rules and themes, it's really important as well to listen to the individual patient and what they're trying to communicate, especially when we're trying to gather information like we're in that early stage of we need to know as much as possible.

So knowledge is powerful, you know, and

[00:24:33] Stuart Marsh: it's a two way street in that, because you're right. Can. Our doctors need to know what works for certain conditions so they can guide people backwards. Right. And again, that's what, with the point of our research is the research is going to allow our doctors to be able to go with doctors across the country, across the world to go, Oh, Hey, you're, you know, this type of demographic suffering from this particular condition.

What we generally find is that this this product or works best for, for people like you. And we all react differently. You know, it's, it's an, it's an interesting, an interesting science behind that, but it's true. And you need to allow people to give people the space to try different things, to optimise their care.

And that's why you can't lock people into where you take this or nothing. Cause it doesn't work. That's not how, it's not how the plant works.

[00:25:19] Kel Myers: Yeah, that's it. And it's such an, I guess like, it's like the plant grows. It's like this journey for us is organic. It's, it's like we're just trying to learn and grow and evolve just, just like, like the plant does.

And yeah, we can only do that if we just keep, you know, feeding the ground and also getting rid of the weeds. If I'm honest.

[00:25:38] Stuart Marsh: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:25:40] Kel Myers: Yeah. So what do you think, Stu, in terms of like moving forward, what do you think are like the most important changes that we need to see in the industry, whether it's like awareness, knowledge, like what, what would you say, like the top three things that we need to like shift out of this grey?

area,

[00:25:59] Stuart Marsh: I think I've probably covered two of them already. So what one is obviously awareness. And I think that's a word of mouth job. It is, it is a word of mouth job of people telling their lived experiences to others suffering from a similar situation to, to get them out of that. You know, we had 100 years of prohibition, right?

Effectively you know, we've all, we've all watched South Park. We all know 'drugs are bad' but you know, opioids are worse and we're dishing those out left, right and centre..

They cause genuine harm to people. Which is openly recognised, right? There's an opioid epidemic that kills 200,000 people plus a year.

No one has ever died of a cannabis overdose. So, you know, we're, we're focusing on the wrong drugs are bad here. So we need to, we need to be able to allow people to discover that and understand that for themselves. And then we need to give them the confidence and the reassurance that this is a very proper and real medical discipline, I think is probably a good way of describing it, which is what we're trying to do with the research, obviously, but also our approach to clinics and making sure that, you know, it's not just a you know free fall grab in the green, in the greenwash kind of space.

And then I think, you know, we, we need the third element is that we need to start changing hearts and minds. Leadership level, let's say, so government, government bodies you know, insurance companies you know, it's not cheap. It's not cheap to be on medical cannabis.

You know, but they'll pay for the opioids, but they won't pay for this. Don't make any sense.

We need the, we need the kind of industry. We need the wheels around the whole industry to start recognising that this is real, it's effective. It's not going to go anywhere. And it's only going to get, get bigger.

So that they make it easier for people to get the the help and the medication that they need and deserve. And I, and actually for High Science, I, Interviewed a doctor in Jersey as you do a few years ago. And I'd interviewed his patient who'd, who'd had a number of epileptic fits and you know, had transformed his life with cannabis.

And anyway, I was talking to the doctor and, one of the conversations that we had was I had this aha moment that medical cannabis must save the government money.

So he said, his view was that the average patient on medical cannabis saves the British NHS £12,000 - £15,000 A year.. Because this, this example that he, the guy that I interviewed every quarter, roughly, he had to get an ambulance to hospital.

He'd be in hospital for two weeks.

He was on medication supplied by the government, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. He'd been once in a year since he'd been on medical cannabis. So all of that cost to the taxpayer suddenly disappeared.

[00:28:59] Kel Myers: Yes! Yeah, that's, that's so profound, Jay, because I've actually written a, I've not put it out yet, but I've been writing a piece about essentially a night, basically, when my partner, who has had, like, eight endosurgeries in the same amount of years, but she's not had any for, like, Two years now since she's been on MedCan.

[00:29:20] Stuart Marsh: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Kel Myers: We have had so many trips to the hospital over the years. You can imagine, you know, and all the rest of it. And I've essentially told a story about how THC like saved her that night. And from literally vaping a car, she was able to stay home and not get the ambulance. And then that put me on the train of thinking of like, how much does it actually cost?

And it costs, I think, twelve hundred dollars. Aussie dollars to get picked up and taken. So yeah, yeah. You can see how quickly and then

[00:29:52] Stuart Marsh: multiply that out by population of 27 million in Australia, 70, 70 ish million in the UK. That's that stuff that you and I are all paying for, right? Do you want to pay taxes?

I'm happy to pay taxes. I think it's the right thing to do. Let's divert that into other forms of healthcare or let's make it more affordable. Let's make it an affordable option for people who cannot afford it right now. You know, there's lots of things that we could be doing. So these are the kinds of stories that I think we need to start telling, but also making sure get amplified and that's why I pulled a leadership level, right?

Because I'm an insurance company can save money if they get people on medical cannabis. It's a no brainer, right? Let's have those conversations. Let's do the trials that prove it. And then let's roll those programs out. And I think you'll just find this snowball effect that will, that will eventually lead to a global acceptance that this is a healthcare option that can benefit so many people and just fundamentally change quality of life.

Yeah. So many. And just to go back to my example of the guy that I'd spoke to in Jersey when I interviewed him, I made sure his wife was in the, was it, was being interviewed at the same time. And she was the most powerful storyteller more so than him, right? He's this rough, tough kind of, you know, working class 60 year old guy.

Right. And you know, again, not someone you'd expect to be using medical cannabis. And he told his story beautifully, but, but. I asked her what the impact was on the family and she burst into tears because he had epileptic fits so often. Like every day she couldn't leave the house and they had a a son a couple of his age, but he would have been like, you know, early teenagers.

And if she went shopping, he had to, the son had to stay with the dad. And because somebody had to watch him all the time. And now that he's, he's not free, but now he's significantly reduced risk, they can go out. And she said to me, she looked at me, she looked at me and just said, I've got, I've got my husband back.

I've got my family back and it's, you know, for years they, they'd suffered together as a family. So the quality of life wasn't just about him. It was about his wife and his child. And, and, and again, you know, we all, we often talk about the impact purely on the patient. And we shouldn't be measuring just that we should be measuring the impact on the family unit.

And actually, you know, to get, to get, you know, take the upper step. That means that she can go back out to work, which is good for the economy, right? It's good for everybody.

[00:32:40] Kel Myers: Yeah. Incredible ripple effect

[00:32:42] Stuart Marsh: yeah. Exactly that. Exactly that. Exactly that.

And, and I'm sure you know, if you speak to most people who are using medical cannabis to transform their lives, they'll have similar stories.

I mean, we, the whole industry started with epileptic children, right. And we all know the effect it's had on them. But you, you know, if your, if your parents of an epileptic child severely, you, you can't go out and work, you can't have time together. as a, you know, as a couple, so if you're, if you've suddenly got confidence that your child is well and healthy, you can live.

Yeah. And, and everyone deserves that.

[00:33:20] Kel Myers: Absolutely. And that's it. It's just a beacon of hope to think that you can actually live again and have a better quality of life. And actually, yeah, I mean, I remember times like when I was first diagnosed in like 2020. So that was like March. It was the day before the pandemic, like the shutdown.

So not the best timing, let's say, but but yeah, to think where I'm at now, nearly five years after that major surgery and to get to this point of functionality where, I can go out walking every day, sometimes twice a day, that I can even do this podcast to be honest. It's essential to it. I couldn't have done it without medical cannabis.

There's no way. Because it's, it's healing. It's not just, yeah, masking the pain and putting you in a zombie state. And I think It's really important to have empathy, you know, clinicians, especially for patients who are, say, taking opioids because to realize that it's not their fault, that's what gets dished out, and it's off the go, you know, it's just like McDonald's, to be honest you don't really get a say in the matter, and I know many, many people that don't like that experience, they would prefer not to be on it and, yeah, they wouldn't choose it for themselves if they knew what else was available.

Bye bye. So now we've got a word

[00:34:35] Stuart Marsh: of mouth, which you're doing. And thank you for so Rawley sharing your personal experiences because it fundamentally changes the opinions of, of people who might be fearful or doubtful. So, so it's thanks to the good work of people like yourself. The people will start kind of considering it it's research to give people the confidence that, you know, there is science behind it which is nascent, but he's coming and then it's about using those together to drive fundamental change in a leadership level you know, across, across the world. So, you know, just three small things. We're just going to change the world. That's

[00:35:20] Kel Myers: all. No big deal. Yeah. No big audacious goals here. Yeah. Thank you for saying that, you know, and thank you for giving me a safe space to be able to share that with you because I wouldn't have done otherwise.

So yeah, thank you for saying that. And yeah, just just to wrap things up. A lot of our listeners are professional women. So to those, you know, People, what are three things you'd like to leave them with about MedCan that could change their view on it or help them feel more confident about exploring it?

[00:35:55] Stuart Marsh: Yeah, it's a great question.

I think if they're listening to this, they've probably already got past the, the fear, right? I, I, I, I would, I would suggest that probably the, the solutions that are being thrown around at the moment are No, no safer a lot of the time than the alternatives that you may be considering.

And the best way to do it and you know, this isn't, this isn't, this isn't a genius concept from can him or myself, right? Every medical cannabis company should and does and should tell you this is start low and go slow. So come into the company, come into it, find Something that is an entry level. CBD often will have a wonderful effect for lots and lots of people.

It's not intoxicating and, and you can function fully in the workplace just, just simply by taking CBD, which is sold in the petrol station in the UK and North America and the whole of Europe, right? It's just here that it's a prescription. Well, here in Asia, it's a prescription medication. So here's something that might help.

So it's a safe and simple way in. And then if you're finding that it's helping but not fully relieving, take the, you know, just take a step up. You know, just take some THC in the evening. You don't have to smoke it. You don't have to vape it. You could, there are oils. The people take as you rightly pointed out and there's lots of other more innovative solutions coming in terms of, you know edibles and tablets and the whole thing.

Start with a low dose of THC and just take it up. If you get to a point where you're going, Oh, this is actually not the feeling that I want. You can just step it back down again. It's, it's, it's not like a tablet that is exactly what it is and you take it or you don't. It's something that you can bring up and you can take down.

You can, it's not physically addictive. So if you want to have a break, have a break. And I think that's, that's a great way to come in. Yeah. And to your point earlier, actually, if you're finding that you feel a bit bullied maybe by the provider that you're with call another one, go to another one and ask them, you probably learned a few questions that you can ask by that point, call them up, ask them, ask them some of those questions.

And if they feel like they're more suited to your needs, jump ship. Most of them won't charge you the initial consult fee if you're transferring from one to another so, and ask them that if they, if they will say, hang on a second, you know, I want to be seen as a returning patient, not, not, not a fresh one because your, your health and wellbeing and, and care should be number one.

Yeah. So, yeah. So hunt around. If you feel like these, whoever you're with isn't working for you, switch. There are plenty of people out there.

[00:38:52] Kel Myers: That's good advice. Be proactive about it. You know, it's your health. So, yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:58] Stuart Marsh: And there are resources online. Obviously, there's plenty of podcasts.

None better than this one obviously, Kel. hunt around a bit on Reddit, then you'll find lots of people talking about their experiences. And You know and that's one way of at least finding out what other people are doing, whether it's right or wrong for you is a whole other point, but at least you can hear other people's point of views.

[00:39:20] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Reddit's a great place to get some transparency as a patient. Yeah.

[00:39:26] Stuart Marsh: Unfortunately, in Australia, it's the only way.

[00:39:31] Kel Myers: It is actually at the moment, especially since Cannareviews was kind of suspended. That's made it more difficult for patients to have a more complex experience, if you will with the plant.

Like I'm a bit of a geek, so I like going out with rabbit holes of the terpene profiles and all that. And, and, and actually it's, it is very important. It really should make a difference. It's not just the advantage of the flower. So, yeah.

[00:39:56] Stuart Marsh: It's a real shame that that's happened. I've spoken to them.

My understanding is that they have a plan for coming back. I sincerely hope they do . There's a similar resource in the UK and everyone that I've spoken to just says it's invaluable for understanding how they do this the right way. You know, safely.

And as we talked about earlier, there isn't a tool for that in Australia.

So something like Cannareviews is fundamental to being able to help people.

[00:40:22] Kel Myers: Yeah, absolutely. It's very empowering because how else can you go to a conversation with a practitioner and feel like an equal partner if you don't know even the RRP or something. You're just completely blind.

[00:40:34] Stuart Marsh: I mean, we're just treating people like children, aren't we?

Absolutely. I mean, it's a bit ridiculous. I've got teenage daughters, right? And, and you have to accept that they're going to go out and do things at some point in their life, rather than just bury your head in the sand and go, no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't exist. I mean, we have those conversations around sex, right?

You know, it's healthier to have the conversation so that people understand you know, and, and I think we should probably take that kind of mature approach into the way we approach cannabis.

[00:41:02] Kel Myers: Yeah, I completely agree. Thanks so much, Stu. I hope you feel better.

[00:41:07] Stuart Marsh: Kel, thank you. Really appreciate you having me on. The great time has flown, so I appreciate that.

And best of luck to you and your partner with your ongoing journey with endometriosis. And you know, hopefully we can reach a lot of people and inspire people to seek the right kind of help for them. So well done.

[00:41:22] Kel Myers: And that, dear listeners, brings to a close episode 12 of Phoenix Sound. Thanks to everyone who's been tuning in so far, we really appreciate it. I think the two words that really stuck out for me this time with Stu were ripple effect, illness, sickness, chronic disease doesn't just impact the patient, it impacts entire families, communities and society at large.

It was really great to explore different patient stories with Stu and find out how transformative plant based medicine has been in their lives. And also to look at the bigger picture view of how alternative treatments can possibly impact. individuals for the better, and not just them, but also the economy.

And if given a chance to fully actualise in people's lives without judgment or stigma, possibly the world. For more information on the High Science doco series series and the topics and ideas Stu and I discussed today, head to the show notes. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound.

For more information on the COMPASS Program:

www.cannabiswarehouse.com.au/compass

www.ausmca.org

TRANSCRIPT

Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

My guest today is Eric Chan, COO of Cannabis Warehouse, an end to end logistics business aiming to bring Australia's gold standard medical cannabis system to the world.

Eric has also played a crucial role in launching COMPASS, Australia's first centralised Compassionate access program, with the goal of making medical cannabis accessible and affordable to everyone eligible for it.

In our conversation, we explore what inspired the creation of the COMPASS Program and how it all works, the power of industry collaboration and putting our minds together to create something bigger than ourselves, and what the future of the medical cannabis space looks like, both in Australia and throughout the world.

Stay with us.

Welcome to Phoenix Sound. It's a real pleasure to have you here today.

I mean on this podcast, we explore ideas, that challenge the status quo around endometriosis. And one promising alternative to conventional treatment that we're seeing emerging more and more is medicinal cannabis which has been getting a lot of attention lately from all angles for its potential to provide meaningful relief.

And the problem is, medicinal cannabis isn't cheap and the high cost I guess, of access is locking many people out of experiencing its therapeutic benefits.

Now, the COMPASS program, which you founded is seeking to address this inequity and is now doing that in a very tangible way.

So I'd really love to start there, Eric, with what inspired the creation of the COMPASS program and how did this transformation come about for you?

Eric Chan: I really appreciate you having me on Kel to speak about the Compassionate Access Scheme. And you're absolutely right.

Medicinal cannabis is a wonderful medicine, but can be extremely costly.

And I would love to claim all the credit for founding the COMPASS Scheme. But in reality, the story of the COMPASS Scheme starts with AMCA, the Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association.

Have you heard of AMCA before?

Kel: I've heard of AMCA, but for people listening who might not have, I think it's worth, yeah, maybe explaining what that is. That'd be helpful.

Eric Chan: Yeah, absolutely. So, AMCA is like I said, the Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association, and it's one of the first associations representing medicinal cannabis in Australia since legalisation.

 And it's history is really tied into the birth of the medical framework because Lucy Haslam and her story with her son suffering, you know, severe illness, severe a palliative and terminal illness, required medicinal cannabis to alleviate some of the suffering that he was experiencing. And none of the other medications were working well.

And it was medicinal cannabis that helped him. And they had to get it obviously illegally and through these back-end channels, which spurred Lucy to go to the government and campaign for the medicinal framework. And it is because of her and her works and obviously the collaboration with all the people along the way that medicinal cannabis as a medical framework exists in Australia.

So we have a lot to thank Lucy and AMCA for, and on that particular train of collaboration, as well as doing for the greater good, they saw the need for a centralised Compassionate access scheme, because right now in the medicinal cannabis industry, there was for a while only a Compassionate access scheme accessible via the brands themselves, but nothing centralised.

So you can imagine as a patient, if you've got multiple products in your treatment plan and you needed financial assistance, you'd have to go and plead your case to each and every brand. Ask them for help, and they come back to you with varying degrees of help, which is exactly what we saw with patients.

Some got one bottle free, some got, you know, X percentage off for a limited amount of time. Some got only you know, support over a six month period, but then had it cut off, which in some ways is setting them up for failure. I'm sure we've all, you know, seen and know people who are in similar situations like this.

And so the centralised aspect of the Compassionate access scheme was the idea that AMCA wanted to push forward. And unfortunately, while this idea was trying to be brought into fruition, the concept and the strategy was to look to the government for help and we know how challenging that can be right. And to be fair, though, that the health minister's office Before the changeover, I think it was can't even remember his name, Greg Hunt or something like that.

He was very open to the idea and very open to medicinal cannabis and was willing to entertain funding the centralised Compassionate access scheme. However, once the changeover to the new minister, maybe because of post COVID, maybe because of, you know, the economic climate. They decided to table even reviewing the proposal and it was at last year's United in Compassion Conference where the AMCA board members announced that rejection and the tabling of the proposal that I was sitting in the audience thinking to myself, Hmm, this problem doesn't seem too hard to solve because as a distributor, which is what my company Cannabis Warehouse does, we distribute medicinal cannabis to pharmacies.

We thought that this should be an easy problem to solve because we already handle the Compassionate access schemes for the individual brands. But if we put our minds together and just think of a good process and perhaps some good digital infrastructure to handle this centralisation aspect, we could make this come to life.

And lo and behold, in November slash December of 2023, we came up with the idea, put it to the AMCA board, got the doctors involved that's part of the clinic Cannabis Clinicians Australia, which is a subgroup of AMCA, and we were able to run a pilot program for six months.

Kel: Absolutely incredible. I just love your can do attitude, Eric.

And I know that you said, Oh, yeah, it's kind of no big deal to put it together. But I think it actually is. I think it's a it's a big undertaking, and it requires a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of focus, like you say, a lot of collaboration. And, you know, it's it's a testament to everyone's effort and to your leadership, really, to galvanize something as powerful as this.

You know, which kind of brings me to the next question because when we talked on the phone for the first time, you shared how someone had rung up asking if the COMPASS program was actually a myth, which is kind of sad in a way, isn't it? That that we don't, think that these things are possible, and that's yeah, that's, that's maybe a conversation for another day.

But, but you know, the cannabis industry, as we know, has been plagued with a lot of misinformation. It can make it very difficult for patients to find trustworthy sources of guidance, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that and someone who's so heavily involved in the space of why you think it's so challenging to get like clear Accurate messaging across and what advice would you give to someone who's like skeptical about Med can?

Maybe they're on the fence But then they read an article and then they get scared or they just don't really know how to navigate safely through the process It's a couple of questions ever. I'm really interested to hear your take on that

Eric Chan: Yeah, absolutely. So on the first point about the patients ringing up our business line, and please remember, we're distributors, so we don't normally deal with patients, but they had heard about the COMPASS Program, and that was one of those key moments where that patient asked exactly that question.

I heard on the grapevine that this is a Compassionate access scheme. Is it a myth? And you are absolutely right. It really gobsmacked our team that we are in this space where it's so challenging to find this level of support, especially again, because this medication is an unapproved therapeutic good, therefore is not part of the PBS scheme.

And though it helps many people, it is a treatment that requires usually, you know, two or three products from an oil from CBD to a flower to a vape cart, like something like that, that matches their needs, which sometimes can go into, you know, the hundreds of dollars.

And so it's just another marker for us to really signify that we're doing the right thing here. And we made the program really easy because coming out of pilot, since we launched we went from 60 patients being served during pilot to now over 150 patients in the last two and a half, three months.

Kel: Wow.

Eric Chan: Yeah, it's amazing, right?

And we went from eight brands contributing and producers contributing to the pool of medication to now 14 or 15. And this just, again, signifies that regardless of all the stigma and all the challenges that we've heard about medicinal cannabis and the business around cannabis and the business in general around healthcare, which can cause a lot of these issues which probably leads into your next question, but just the business of cannabis is one thing we all know that business is required to move industries forward. They have to be self sustaining. They have to be able to generate money. And in other words, it's own life force in order to keep moving and growing.

We all sort of understand that, but I think what people forget is that in healthcare, there is a measure of moral and ethical requirements.

That it's not just plain straight business and the COMPASS program looks to address that because we keep the submissions and the approvals of cases within the health care professional hands like the way that it works is that the patient's doctor actually submits a case to the COMPASS program where a panel of their peers.

Nurse pracs and doctors will review the case, and if it gets approved, they get their treatment taken care of for six month blocks at a time. And fortunately, because we've had so much contribution, we know that we definitely can help patients for much longer than six months. This is just something that we're thinking about a pilot, but I'm happy to report that we could probably go for a year and a half, two years even if we receive no more donations and no more support from pharmacies.

And so that aspect of coming together and bringing forth a reminder that there is the moral and ethical aspect of healthcare is why, you know, it's so important to have what we have here.

And so when you ask the question, why is there so many issues and challenges around the stigma and the acceptance of medicinal cannabis?

Is that there is that part where cannabis has been steeped in our popular culture for a very long time.

It has had the challenges with being a medication that also induces euphoria. And when you have euphoria or pleasure or dopamine or whatever angle you want to go from, it is open to abuse. And that is the reality and the fact of it.

And coming from somebody who loved cannabis, you know, in, in my uni days from a recreational lens and only in, you know, my late twenties to thirties, as I started to learn more about the medical lens and understanding why I used it, I can appreciate that culture and I can appreciate that where that comes from.

But I think even the people who love it recreationally, they all have stories of friends who've used too much, who've greened out, who, you know, had challenges and issues with cannabis. And I think that is a reminder that we need to come to a medicinal cannabis from a much more balanced point of view.

Kel: Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, that moral and ethical requirement and keeping like the Hippocratic oath at the centre of everything of 'do no harm'.

It's clear that the cannabis industry does that at all times.

And it's kind of sad that there's so much mythology. And like you said, it's steeped in pop culture the whole like You know, just the stoner, the college stoner.

We've all been that person, anyone that went to uni and was on a campus. We've all been that person. But in terms of, of that versus medicinal cannabis, it's like night and day. So yeah, it's it's really interesting.

Eric Chan: I think I'm hitting on that point there about, you know, it being night and day to, to look at why it is night and day is because a patient to get through safely and find their way through the process of medicinal cannabis is to understand that there is a misnomer around what cannabis in the pop culture is, you know, marijuana, you know, weed, which usually focuses on high THC products. And what medicinal cannabis is, which is this plethora of minor cannabinoids that are non psychoactive.

They're completely non psychoactive, they're completely separated and divorced from what people normally know of cannabis and has all these really strong medicinal properties and in fact our industry started because of CBD and usually the video that probably a lot of people have seen of the child being given CBD after suffering seizures constantly and having a small dose of CBD and all of a sudden, you know, the seizures start to reduce like I'm sure many people have seen that video clip before. It all started from the other minor cannabinoids as well.

And I think the only way that we can navigate through this conversation through this industry through medicinal cannabis as patients versus recreational is to understand that cannabis is so much more than what the pop culture gives, is so much more than THC products and THC plays a huge role in the benefits of medicinal cannabis and medicine in general, but it's not only that.

And I think that's where the stigma lays is separating those two things with the regular community.

Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And talking of community, I saw a proverb the other day, which pops up a lot and it's something I really love an African proverb that reads, 'if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.' And I was instantly thinking about people in the cannabis space and I was thinking ahead of our conversation and it just really encapsulates that this is more than an industrial sector as you as you stated, it's a loyal and dedicated community of, of people, and I'm wondering how important that's been.

It's clear for me story that it's been very important to, you know, galvanize people and bring them together. But as everyone continues to grow, and this is strength in numbers, how do you see the space evolving over the next five years as a community?

Eric Chan: That's a really good question.

I actually had to think really deeply about this one to understand where the, I guess, key point would be that will be the difference that makes the difference, right?

Because community or industries come together by definition, have community growth within itself. That's what an industry is.

It's a coming together of people who exist along, say, for example, the supply chain or the medical healthcare field, and they need to come together for an industry to actually exist. But where I think my thoughts landed on is that we need to have a shared community values, vision, mission, and ethos. I think that's not discussed enough.

I think the starting point for the industry side has always been one from purely business and from the healthcare side, it has been one from purely we need to treat it like every other pharmaceutical that we've ever known because that's safe and secure and provides a certainty. But this new plant, this new medicine, this agricultural medicine, this botanical medicine is so different from what we've ever experienced before it's not one single compound that we isolate, produce in a lab and put into a tablet. It's not that at all. And the business around it, like we shared before has a moral and ethical aspect and more so than ever, because it's not so simple. Because it has this complexity and it has this level of innovation and newness that we really need to band together and find each other that the right people within the community, whether you're speaking about health care or you're speaking about industry.

From supply chain to producer to anyone along the space. We need to be talking about what is the goal that we're heading towards. And if the goal that we're heading towards truly is to support patients to truly do the right thing so that we do not end up on the wrong side of history. I'm sure everyone here has seen dope sick or pain hustlers about the opioid epidemic.

And a lot of people. Do you throw up their arms about how, you know, we can't advertise. And I agree, there's a level of strictness where you can't even say medicinal cannabis and makes it harder for people to find it and almost treats medicinal cannabis, like Voldemort's name, right? From how that makes it even harder, but on the other side of the coin from the community aspect, I can understand that as well, because if anyone looked at the opioid crisis or perhaps on the nicotine vaping crisis, if you've watched big vape on Netflix.

When I was at uni, like 10, 15 years ago nicotine vaping was there, you know, I saw lots of students with a big giant mods blowing out big plume clouds, but it never made any impact at all.

But if you watch the big vape, documentary on Juul when they tied nicotine vaping with lifestyle and branding and youth culture. That sort of advertising really changed the the game in terms of how nicotine vaping cemented itself in the community and unfortunately with young teens and above, right?

So you can see from these examples is we're trying to learn From these past experiences and applied them where we can on a large scale, and we all need to have empathy for that and understand where the regulators coming from.

And so when you talk about all these multifaceted areas that are part of the community aspect in making this successful, we need to come together, share a right vision, have those right discussions, have good discussions between not only the patients and the And the medicines and the healthcare professional, but also with the regulators and the government and had that, you know, real true collaborative feel so that we can all head towards the same thing.

Kel: Yeah. Yeah. I think the key word there is, is empathy. I reckon it's clear that you've got really strong empathy skills, the ability to see things from different people's perspectives. perspectives to understand the historical context and why people feel the fear that they do. It's like fear doesn't come from nowhere.

It's primal, and it can be intergenerational if there's certain narratives that have been passed down. We know that, and that obviously shapes culture in different ways. And it's clear that, and understandably, there's a They want to get away, the system, if you will, the government want to get away from this whole like cliche of the stoner and I'm with that, to be honest, I think that that's, that's the future of the industry needs to be a lot more pragmatic.

I think we need, we need more nuanced education around how we discuss medicinal cannabis. And like you said, it's so complex that it isn't as simple as like indica, Sativa, we can't afford to be that binary about it and hopefully the more research that gets done, the more that we can have that that kind of like textured conversation.

I'm wondering what you think the trends are that are going to shape the future of the industry when it comes to access for everyday patients. I just put an asterisk here, and you can fact check me if I'm wrong here, Eric, but it says that in 2020, the Australian medicinal cannabis market was valued at around 100 million dollars, so that's Aussie dollars and that's projected to double by the end of 2024.

I'm not sure. The specifics, but yeah, it's quite, quite rapid market growth and patient access expanding the way it is. Things are looking bright, right?

Eric Chan: Yeah, I do. I do still have a very optimistic outlook on medicinal cannabis, despite at the time of this recording in late October of 2024, we've had a recent run of bad press.

Yeah, about medicinal cannabis and various, you know, incidences happening with a gentleman who committed suicide to the stories on a current affair about kickbacks and things like that. Right.

And one of the things that I have to sort of keep in mind as someone within the industry is to remember that as all things, they had their life cycles and with medicinal cannabis being so new, it's going through that life cycle where there is desire and want from the community to have this medicine, and that is not only evidenced by the level of growth, but also about the conversations and also by the mere fact that globally, even in countries that you would not expect to have medicinal cannabis, such as a country like Pakistan, right?

One of my colleagues is from Pakistan that is predominantly a very conservative country. With the Islamic faith, which has a very strong outlook on drugs of any kind, medicines included. They have legalised medicinal cannabis, especially for research and so on. So you can tell that there is a global trend that understands this plant that's been around for so long and the benefits it can have.

But in terms of the future of where the industry is going for Australia is that right now I feel like there's going to be a little bit of a purge because without the proper regulation and the consequences being in the forefront in the minds of those who wish to be bad faith actors and damage this industry from, you know, doctors and clinics that take kickbacks to those who are doing nefarious things with their business models and things like that, we need to go through a little bit of purge and perhaps we'll see a slowdown in the industry.

However, it's growth is probably inevitable. It's movement away from simply harm reduction and converting perhaps a lot of the people who are utilising in the black market to the legitimate market, to have them understand that perhaps their use, which was thought to be recreational may have a medicinal aspect part of it as a part of it that they may be using and be self medicating for a reason.

I was one of those patients who realised that. And when I came to that realisation, it actually reduced my cannabis usage to, to only when I need it. It really changed my mindset. These little things that I'm talking about here. Part of the journey of where I think the future of medicinal cannabis needs to head to towards because once the regulators and the government and the community feel comfortable that the industry has a level of self regulation, is heading towards the right sort of mission and ethos and vision that we do understand that there is a moral aspect to health care and that we are counterbalancing the harms that potentially can be created and demonstrate that to the community and to the government. I think that medicinal cannabis will start to flowerish and perhaps that in the end looks like a separation of say THC products or THC as the cannabinoid going down sort of more the adult use and regulated under a different framework. Versus the minor cannabinoids, which currently in the framework, minor cannabinoids are treated like THC and are moved into schedule eight, which is one of the highest scheduling, you know, on par with cocaine, et cetera, right?

So perhaps the separation of THC would reduce the the minor cannabinoids into what they call schedule 4 what you're most familiar with, which is, you know, standard script medicines like antibiotics and all that. And then because there's less restriction around it, industry will look to invest more money because it's easier to deal with and it'll be easier for it to flowerish and grow and have research done on it and be integrated with the community and make healthcare professionals like doctors and pharmacists feel comfortable in handling it because there is a Big difference between handling schedule four medicines and schedule eight medicines.

These things that I'm talking about here, hopefully will be in my belief little milestones and flags that will signify the progress of the cannabis industry. And then of course, you know, to, to tap that off would be something like, you know, the driving laws changing and things like that.

Kel: Yeah. Fingers crossed that things will move forward there. Just bringing it back to COMPASS. You said at the start that you'd finished the pilot. Things are expanding already. And you also talked about, shared vision and goals. And I'm thinking, you know, it's clear that you're a leader in this space, Eric.

So what's your vision that you'd like to galvanise people around for, like, Both national and international cannabis access, like you said, Pakistan making that move, you know, which is a bold move, as you say, in a, in a conservative society. So what's, what's your vision? I'd love to hear it.

Eric Chan: Well, I think that COMPASS was one of those things where we wanted to demonstrate that there is something really positive that can come of proper collaboration between all stakeholders within the industry. And it has become like that.

And as a result of designing a program like this, where say, for example, the submission and the review, the approval process is a peer to peer, and it removes, for example, the communication relationship between a brand and a patient, which obviously can cause lots of conflicts of interest.

This inspired the thoughts around creating a proper framework around medicinal cannabis and how we can evolve it and therefore become world leaders. Australia could become world leaders in designing the perfect medicinal cannabis framework.

And I think that is sort of the vision that we have here and why our team at Cannabis Warehouse do what we do is that we always saw the opportunity as not only just bringing this medicine that we knew from the get go would be highly positive for patients and for the people in general, but also seeing the opportunity for Australia to be a world leader in this space and bring it to the world.

Something that we can all be proud of because like I said before, we could end up on the wrong side of history. And be on a dope sick pain hustler type of docuseries.

Or we could end up on the right side of history and be remembered as the country, as the people that created something that spread this really positive and amazing plants and medicine to the world.

And I think case in point is that we always talk about, you know, quality cannabis coming from Canada because they legalised cannabis for what? 20 years now, right?

But one of the things that you'll see in Canada now, they're only just starting to talk again about the minor cannabinoids to talk about the medicine, the medicinal framework.

And we've been talking about that for years now in Australia, despite being so far behind in our knowledge around the cannabis plants. But in terms of the medicines, in terms of the frameworks, in terms of the policies that we could create. We could be world leaders in this space along with, you know, some of the European countries as well.

And so this is the vision that I have for Australia and us as an industry, because if we can do this well and stand by it and have something to be proud of, it could be something, like you said, that galvanises us all together and the community and the regulators together to move this forward in the best way possible.

Kel: Yeah, yeah, that's a really helpful outlook Eric. It's exciting to think that that's possible and, you know, even just from an agricultural standpoint, we've got such diverse land here, you know, coming from the UK are still in awe of the fact that we can grow like potatoes and bananas. In the same country.

 There's so many different actual environments within Australia as a landmass. It's yeah, there's so much potential for excellence and to be up there with Canada and like European countries and even be ahead of them and be a leader of them.

Eric Chan: And you just hit a really good point there is that the emerging Australian cannabis growers and manufacturers, those are just starting to really show themselves right now because of the investments made a couple of years ago.

So like you said, with this diversity and this amazing land, perhaps Australia also can produce some of the best cannabis in the world.

Some very unique cannabis, maybe best, best than perfect. I think maybe these words are the wrong words to use, right? Because I think every country can contribute to this space and bring their own unique spin to it.

So yeah, you're absolutely right. There's, there's that possibility of what Australia can do with the plant itself.

Kel: They're actually running a course at Federation Uni, which is here in Ballarat on how to, to grow it. It's a Cert V and it's, it's a particular course and it's only FedUni that are doing it.

And I think people are going to be learning about an hour north of Ballarat. About how to, how to grow it, which is brilliant to see that pipeline of people getting involved in that side of the space in the growing space. So, yeah.

Eric Chan: A good start, right?

Kel: Yeah, right, yeah. There's so many good things happening.

There really are.

And yeah, just, just going back to the bad press, not to touch on it too much, but I think, yeah, it's important just to kind of like ride the wave and know that this is just the way it goes when it comes to innovation and that kind of part of the bell curve, there's always going to be resistance and turbulence and not to get too caught up in you In what's being printed at Fairfax Media, maybe.

So yeah, yeah.

As the conversation comes to a close, I'm really curious to hear like your thoughts on this, Eric.

What are three things you wish that everyone knew about medicinal cannabis? Like three things that people can just take away in their mind and mull over. I'd love to know.

Eric Chan: Yeah.

So first off, I think I want to reiterate that point that I made before that medicinal cannabis is not just the pop culture of cannabis, and it's not just THC.

That medicinal cannabis has all these minor cannabinoids and volatiles and terpenes and all these things that make up the medicinal properties, the healing properties.

And if everyone can separate those two things in their mind, then I think we'll be able to move forward from the stigma of cannabis. So that definitely would be one of them.

The second thing that I would say would be a key takeaway is that please know that the success of the medicinal cannabis industry and its space within the government and regulatory framework is actually in the hands of the people, and I think people forget that.

Where you choose to take your lack of a better word, "business" or your treatment, if you just decide to go for those easy telehealth clinics that do two minute consults that are just script meals, you are adding to the fuel of restricting the growth of medicinal cannabis and actually inhibiting the the ability for our industry to head towards where I'm sure these people want anyway, which is proper adult use and freedom to do so and fairness amongst the driving laws.

It's in the choices of the people and where they decide to take their health care is what is actually determining how fast this industry grows.

I should say is a key pillar to determining where they grow.

Because if we keep feeding these particular, you know, telehealth clinics, fast clinics, these clinics that have, you know, huge conflicts of interest that don't really take your health into consideration by not sharing with you that the products that they prescribe to you are actually products that they own.

So that huge conflict of interest in health care is not meant to exist for a really, really good and obvious reason, right? No one here.

You know what the funny joke is that I asked? Like even those doctors who engage in, you know, kickbacks and, and all of that, if you ask them, would you want your doctor, your healthcare professional to have such a large conflict of interest where they're only choosing the medicine for you, even the particular type of medicine, even in the brand of medicine, even if it's the right medicine for you, because they get some sort of monetary remuneration from it, would you be happy to engage with that healthcare professional?

And even those healthcare professionals would say no, because no one wants that.

So it's a really big reminder that where we head towards has always and will always be in the hands of the people.

That that's a second thing that I would want.

And then I guess the third thing is I would like to share with those who are listening who use medicinal cannabis, probably one part recreationally, but also understand that it benefits them on a medical side, perhaps it helps alleviate pain because they're a tradie and working all day or they have sleep issues.

I would like for everyone to think about exploring beyond just high THC products.

That even though the psychoactive properties of THC give what feels like the most you know, alleviation from whatever elements you have, that sometimes you really just don't know what you don't know, or you haven't experienced yet.

And I've met so many people, even for pain, you said, Oh, but I need that high THC product or I need a lot of flower that as soon as they try like a balanced flower, right? With a lot of CBD in it or other minor cannabinoids like CBG, CBN, all these other things available. As soon as they're willing to give it a go, they found that their symptoms start to alleviate quicker that they were using less, that their cost per month was reduced.

And I've heard that story time and time and time again.

But the ability to get over that initial hump of trying something that may not have that instantaneous hit that they're used to is, is something that has been the biggest challenge for those of us who have been campaigning and championing the medical model.

So I would love for everyone to perhaps take that on board and give those other things a try and a go.

Kel: Yeah, and I think that's a testament as well, that, that last point around it's what they're used to. I think that really is a testament to how different the medicinal cannabis space is from conventional medicine, conventional pills, like say opioids, is that, there's that expectation of like a quick hit, a quick relief, you know, if you go into hospital, some women need to be hospitalized for endometriosis pain. Thankfully, I never have, but my partner has. And you know, they'll hook you up to fentanyl in there. You know, I can't imagine that's like, you know, a slow, a slow burn. I'd imagine it's pretty, pretty rapid onset.

So it's like, I think that kind of proves the point of how innovative and how singular this space is in comparison to traditional big pharma, as well as the expectations of the medicine. You know, as someone that takes CBD oil, yeah, it's a completely different experience to, to like vaping a THC product and for good reason.

Eric Chan: It also makes a lot of sense, right Kel? Because if you think about anything else that exists in our life, whether it be vitamins, right, where you could take medication for depression. But if you address your vitamin D. Deficiency and taking vitamin D tablets do not give you an instantaneous relief.

But over time, everyone knows that that helps as well because we have, you know, seasonal depression. We have people who've demonstrated over and over again that vitamin D deficiency can cause these psychological symptoms. We know the aspect of physical training, that lifting the weights or running, that one run is not going to help you, but over time you see how it impacts every other area of your life.

This idea of long term slow investment or medium term investment versus instantaneous quick hits and wins, that that dichotomy has existed in every area in our life. And it also exists in medicinal cannabis medication as well.

Kel: Yeah, yeah. And shifting the expectations is so important. Thanks for sharing those insights, Eric.

There's a lot of, a lot of wisdom, a lot of depth, a lot of things to unpack. And I hope that people can really reflect on such an enlightening conversation about COMPASS and about hope and coming together and collaborating and for anyone looking to learn more about the COMPASS program, what would be the next step on the journey for them, Eric?

Eric Chan: Yeah, absolutely. I would love to actually just close by sharing how easy it is to get involved with COMPASS and to where to direct you know, your search right?

So obviously with COMPASS, you can go to The Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association and they will have a link to COMPASS and it shares with you, you know, how it works and, and all that information, but essentially it really is as simple as this because we deliberately made it this simple. If you speak to your doctor who is authorised to prescribe medicinal cannabis and ask them to go to cannabiswarehouse.com.au, they can sign up under a practitioner login, and it's all behind a firewall.

We do need to get their our process all legitimate.

Then they would have access to our portal and all the education information on how the system works and what products are available, what medicines are available to be given to a particular patient. And for a patient it really is as simple as that, because as soon as the practitioner is involved and signed up to our portal, they will be able to make a submission and the submission is simply identifying what is the clinical picture of the patient and what is the financial hardship situation.

In terms of the criteria, we made it very simple as well.

We want patients who are already stabilised on medicinal cannabis, meaning that they're already familiar with what treatment works.

If they still need to see if medicinal cannabis works in any way, shape or form, that might not necessarily be the best candidate for it because after all, it is a limited resource.

However like I said, in since we've gone out of pilot, we've had a lot of collaboration and contributions, so perhaps that will change. But for now, the criterion is to have people who are comfortable with medicinal cannabis as a treatment outcome already.

And then finally, the other criteria is simply the three tiers that we have available, which is Tier One: this is for the most severely hit in terms of financial hardship, and those with the most severe medical conditions like cancer, palliative, Parkinson's, you know, all that sort of thing.

They would get all of their medication and treatment and dispensing for free. It's complete altruism on the part of the industry.

On Tier Two, the medication is free as well.

But the patient will need to pay for the courier fee because that is a hard dynamic cost to our pharmacies.

But the medication itself will be completely free.

And the criteria for that is that if you are unemployed or on disability or on pensioner and that you have a mild to moderate illness, as your practitioner and the panel will be able to determine.

And then finally Tier Three is where the patient is an employed individual and is able to afford to contribute to their treatment at $40 per unit, regardless of the recommended retail of the medication. And as you can tell at $40 per unit, that is like anywhere between a 50 and 75 percent reduction in cost of the item itself.

So those are the three tiers.

Those are the criteria.

And of course, if there's any exceptional cases, the doctors can always apply for that. There is a space in the application for that. So you might be an employed person. So usually for tier three. But you may be taking care of, you know, sick family members with high medical bills or taking care of multiple families overseas.

There's always a space for exemptions in a case by case basis. We understand how complicated and dynamic these situations can be.

So in that summary and for heading to the Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association and for the practitioners to go to cannabiswarehouse.com.au and register for our pharmacy registration.

It really is as simple as those couple of things that I shared there.

Kel: Oh, beautiful. And I'll make sure they're linked in the show notes as well, so everyone can just click on and, and head there who, who wants to go on that journey. And I recommend anyone who's on the fence, you know, dive in, it's safe, it's warm, you'll be okay.

And thank you so much, Eric, for your time and wisdom today. It's really incredible what you guys are doing and what you've, you've founded and, and what's growing, which is, is, is like a tree. You know, you planted a little seed and it's growing now and it's blooming and it's wonderful to see. So, thanks so much.

Eric Chan: Kel, I really appreciate you inviting me on. We want to spread the word and share more about not only COMPASS, but where the cannabis industry is going, and more importantly, that there is a huge, and I mean a huge community of individuals in the industry who want to do the right thing, want to move medicinal cannabis forward and bring about a much better future for those who are suffering.

So it's, it's only because of platforms like yours and people willing to speak to us in this way. That we can share this message. So thank you so much.

Kel: Oh, thanks so much, Eric. I really appreciate your time today.

And that, dear listeners, brings to a close episode 11 of Phoenix Sound.

Now, for women with endometriosis, like my partner and myself, medical cannabis, offers a beacon of hope in a sea of often overpriced and subpar conventional treatment options. And on behalf of my partner and I, I'd just like to say thank you to AMCA and Eric for their care and commitment to leading with empathy and COMPASSion in this space.

We value you and we really appreciate you.

For more information about the COMPASS program, please visit the show notes.

Until next time, I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound.

In this transformative episode of Phoenix Sound, I sit down with Amanda Blesing, a powerhouse in women's leadership and negotiation.

Amanda’s mission is clear: to help women rise from the ashes of outdated systems and claim their rightful place in every sphere—whether it’s in the boardroom or the doctor’s office.

Together, we discuss how to ignite your personal transformation by harnessing the power of negotiation, setting audacious goals, and showing up as an equal partner in every interaction. Amanda also introduces three unique strengths that women possess, which—when activated—can fuel our rise to success.

Here are three takeaways from this episode:

1. Negotiation is Your Catalyst for Change

Amanda reveals why women are naturally skilled negotiators and how you can ignite this ability to transform conversations, creating powerful outcomes in both your career and healthcare.

2. Set Goals that Light a Fire Under You

Whether in life, work, or health, setting bold, audacious goals is what drives transformation. Amanda shares how this mindset propelled her to new heights and why it’s essential for women aiming to break barriers.

3. Forge Partnerships, Not Power Imbalances

In any high-stakes scenario—whether it's with a healthcare provider or as a corporate leader—approach it as a partnership. Amanda explains how this mindset shift can spark better results and ensure you’re respected for your expertise.

Curious about the three "feminine leadership superpowers" Amanda shares that can fuel your personal and professional transformation?

Tune in to the full episode to discover these hidden strengths and learn how to ignite them in every aspect of your life.

This episode is packed with insights to help you rise, transform, and lead with confidence. Don’t miss this chance to fan the flames of your potential and become the Phoenix in your own story!

For more information about Amanda's work: https://www.amandablesing.com

More information on Susie Alegre:

Books: https://linktr.ee/susiealegre

Website: www.susiealegre.com

Consulting website: https://alegre.ai

TRANSCRIPT:

Kel: [00:00:00] I'm Kel Myers, and this is Phoenix Sound. Joining me in conversation today is Susie Alegre, international human rights lawyer and author of the new book, Human Rights, Robot Wrongs, Being Human in the Age of AI, in which she explores the ways artificial intelligence is starting to shape every aspect of our daily lives, from how we think to who we love.

As the atmosphere of fear and hysteria around AI grows, it's apparent we need more nuanced and well-informed discussions around this issue. Today, we'll explore what human rights are, the potential threat AI poses to our human rights, and some of the proactive measures we can take to ensure these rights are protected.

Stay with us.

So thanks again, Susie I'll just give you a background on how I first discovered you. I first came across your work in 2022, when you published your first book, Freedom to Think, in which you chart the history and importance of freedom of thought and how that basic human right is something that needs protecting and it just completely opened my mind up and gave language to a lot of things I think I've been feeling.

And I heard a comedian say lately that he's got a lot of vibes – he just doesn't have data to back it up. And I was kind of like, in that space, I've got all these vibes, like, something doesn't feel right, but that definitely helped to articulate what the problem was there.

And your work called into question, I think, our growing over-reliance on technology and how it can really just compromise our ability to think for ourselves and then, you know, fast forward two years and we find ourselves living through, an era of rapid AI advancement.

It's moving at a breakneck speed.

You know, people are getting AI partners, AI pets, chat GPTs, got hundreds of millions of active users.

And I think, as our collective enchantment around the potential of these technologies grows, so does, obviously, the need to know where we stand as humanity in relation to them, which is why I think the central question at the heart of your second book, Human Rights, Robot Wrongs, is such an important and also a refreshing reality check.

In the introduction you write, 'The question I ask in this book is not, What is AI and how can we constrain it? The question is, what is humanity, and what do we need to do to protect it?'

So, let's start there, with us, people. What are human rights, and why do they need protecting?

Susie: Well, human rights are often sort of talked about as if they were some nebulous idea, but human rights are a set of Rights and freedoms that are now set down in law.

So since 1948, with the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, sort of in the aftermath of the Second World War, people and countries from around the world came together to discuss what they could do to make sure that these kind of horrors never ever happened again and to write, if you like, a list of all the rights and freedoms that we need to enjoy our humanity and to flourish as human beings, regardless of who we are or where we are on the planet.

And so, the Universal Declaration on Human Rights was really the first time that those rights had been codified clearly in international law. I mean, historically, we'd seen things like the Declaration on the Rights of Man, you know, through the Enlightenment, where people had started to realise that there must be these rights that we need to be human.

But since the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, we've seen laws both like, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights, and in the UK, now the Human Rights Act, coming into force and really putting legal guarantees for these rights.

And the kind of rights, we see in these, in these documents and in these laws are quite wide ranging. So they include things like the right to private and family life, the right to liberty, the right to freedom of thought, as you mentioned, which I explored a lot in my first book, and also rights related to things like freedom of association and how [00:04:00] we interact with each other, freedom of expression, access to justice.

Another crucial one, which sort of almost seems like it's a given, but is the right to life, but the right to life is enshrined in and protected by law and by many laws in different ways. And so those human rights are really what we need to allow us to live, to develop, and to flourish as humans, as individuals, and as societies.

Kel: At the start of the book you explain how AI is very much a gender based issue and it is quite scary to read and to see how that's moved, you know, like over a millennia from myth into something that's happening in reality. Would you be open to reading us the opening section of chapter one Being Human?

Would that be alright?

Susie: Yes, absolutely, I'd be delighted.

In his 1972 novel, The Stepford [00:05:00] Wives, Ira Levin created a dystopian world in which a town full of men, led by Diz, a former Disneyland roboticist, replaced their wives with robots. It was a tale situated within a brewing backlash against the women's liberation movement of the 1960s, but it built upon a cultural phenomenon dating back millennia, the fantasy of replacing women with automata.

In ancient Cypriot mythology, King Pygmalion was so repulsed by real women, he decided to create a perfect female sculpture, Galatea, to love instead.

The goddess Aphrodite helpfully breathes life into the marble so that the king and his sculpture could start a family and live happily ever after.

The Stepford Wives is a modern day retelling of the myth, and the 2004 film version places it firmly in the world in which we live today, with Mike, a former Microsoft executive, Taking the lead, and [00:06:00] smart houses and a robo puppy, completing the perfect suburban picture created by the robot wives.

It is a toxic cocktail of idealised womanhood, misogyny and automation. And it is a phenomenon that has crossed over from myth and fiction into the reality of tech innovation that we live with every day. Described by researchers from Radboud University Nijmegen as Pygmalion Displacement, A process of humanising AI that dehumanises women in particular.

Once you start to look at technology through the Pygmalion lens, you will see it is all around you. Just ask Alexa.

Kel: Thanks, Susie.

I was pretty much shaking my head the entire time that you were reading that.

Yeah, thank, thank you. It's very, very powerful opening there to the book and Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

And I've been reading out to all my friends. And it's not really a case of whether or [00:07:00] not they want to, so maybe that's me impeding on their human rights, I don't know, but you need to hear this, you're gonna hear it.

Susie: As they can walk away, it's fine.

Kel: Yeah, yeah

in the book, and just prior, you talked about the UDHR, or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as this global blueprint for societies and the world and how we should function with respect to human dignity and justice.

Could you please explain to our audience what the UDHR, is more broadly and how it serves to protect us, especially at this, at this time when we've got so many AI powered threats in the world.

Susie: Well, as I said earlier, the Universal Declaration on Human Rights, or UDHR, is the kind of foundational document of modern human rights that was agreed in 1948, in the aftermath of the Second World War Eleanor Roosevelt being the chair of the drafting committee, which included [00:08:00] members from all around the world, from Russia, from China, from Lebanon, from Canada, the UK and Latin America, as well as Eleanor Roosevelt, obviously from the United States.

It's a document that includes not only civil and political rights, the kind of rights you might think about when you're thinking of human rights, like the right to liberty, prohibition on torture, prohibition on slavery, but it also includes a lot of what are called economic, social and cultural rights.

So things that are very much about things like the right to work, the right to rest, the right to education, and the right to health, crucially.

So it's a really quite a broad document, including the full range of human rights, and recognising that human rights operate between each other, if you like.

So if you don't have equality, then you may well not have the right to health or you may not be enjoying the right to health if you don't have [00:09:00] equal access, for example, to health care facilities. And so it's really this idea that if we want to flourish as human beings, then we need to make sure that these rights are guaranteed going forward.

One of the things that is really important to bear in mind about human rights law and the way that it's developed since the UDHR in 1948 is what's called the Living Tree Doctrine on human rights law, which means that human rights develop as our societies develop.

So we're not stuck with the ideas of human rights that people living in the 1940s might have had, particularly things like gender equality or LGBTQ+ rights have advanced radically since the 1940s.

And human rights law has evolved with those changes in society.

So, for example the place where I'm from, the Isle of Man, in the 1970s, still had corporal punishment for young men as a judicial remedy.

And a young man who was sentenced to be birched in the Isle of Man took his case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, claiming that birching was inhuman and degrading punishment.

The Strasbourg court, when it looked at the case, found, and this is what I think is really important to understand about human rights, that while birching or corporal punishment had been pretty common in the 1950s in Europe when the European Convention on Human Rights was drafted, by the 1970s the Isle of Man was a real outlier, and that in that context it had gone from being something which was quite a normal punishment to something that amounted to a degrading punishment and was then unlawful.

And so that really matters when we're thinking about human rights in the digital world. And that you might hear people saying, ‘well, you know, tech is moving so fast that the law can't keep up.’

Well, human rights law evolves to meet the changing society. You don't have to rewrite human rights. You have to interpret it in light of what's happening in society.

And today, very clearly, what's happening in our societies includes the digital and technological advancements and the AI advancements you were talking about at the start.

Kel: Yeah, and that's such an interesting distinction, I think to look at it that way, rather than think like, oh, you know, yeah, we're not keeping up to, to imagine it as this ever-evolving thing, like, like a plant or a tree, and it's kind of living organism, I guess.

Susie: No, absolutely, and I think, again, one of the narratives that you'll find about laws not keeping up, it's often not about the laws keeping up, it's about the fact that you know, justice moves slowly and access to justice is not, unfortunately, a given. And so you'll see that the interpretation of our laws may be moving more slowly.

That doesn't mean that they don't apply.

Kel: Yeah. Absolutely.

In the book, you talk about the environmental impact of digital technologies, and I think that this is often a blind spot, and I can completely understand why when, you just go to the Apple store, or you just order a new phone online, and you're not really considering, like, where is it coming from?

I think a lot of the time it says designed in California or designed in the USA.

Most people I think are aware that it's made in China, but we don't really think about the consequences deeper than that in terms of, of the impacts.

And I was really struck by, chapter eight of your book entitled Magical Pixie Dust, where you write, quote:

'our obsession with technology as an easy way of making our lives smoother is fed by the fallacy that virtual worlds are somehow greener.

The truth is uglier. If we want a sustainable future on earth, we cannot afford to look away.'

What exactly are we looking away from?

Susie: Well, we're looking away from an awful lot of things, so it's almost not looking away, it's burying our heads in the sand, essentially.

You know, one thing is the question of the supply chain.

You know, the tech that we carry around in our pockets is made up of minerals, chemicals, you know, substances that have ultimately been dragged out of the earth, not just magically appeared in the Apple shop or whatever other tech shop you're going to.

And what we can see is that, you know, the ICT industry involves really horrendous examples of illegal or unregulated mining, particularly in the developing world.

So an awful lot of the vital minerals and components of our technology are being dug out of the ground in unregulated mines in places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, using indentured labour, child labour, you know, people working in incredibly dangerous conditions in ways that are really significantly breaching their rights.

And we'll see as well in terms of the manufacturing of the components of our technology.

You know, when you look at even Silicon Valley, for example, Silicon Valley is one of the most polluted areas in the United States, precisely because it's where the silicon was dug up and processed in the United States.

And there have been reports of really serious health impacts of the manufacturing of tech products, including impacts on reproductive health, which can have consequences not only for the people working in the factories, but for their entire families and for generations.

And then we see also supply chain questions when you look at things like artificial intelligence and the training of artificial intelligence, which we're sort of told is a mechanical and again a slightly magical feat.

But actually things like content moderation, for example, to train generative AI to understand what is and is not acceptable if you like, in human language and in human society.

That work is done by using what are known as click workers, often again in the developing world, to look at horrendous tranches of content scraped off the internet in order to filter it out so that the product that we get to see when we look at a tool like ChatGPT is a kind of sanitised version of what's been taken off the internet.

But another and I think really important thing to bear in mind is that when we're done with our technology, you know, when your phone becomes obsolete, that in itself is an environmental disaster, that the scale that we are using and throwing away technology at - all of that stuff, all of that hardware is going back into the earth, potentially either to be buried in toxic landfill or to be recycled again in an unregulated way often with implications for child rights and for reproductive rights of people working in this environment or living around it.

And then one of the things that is just recently, actually, since the book came out, really showing itself is the power intensity and the water usage of AI itself.

And so while we're being sold this idea that AI, particularly generative AI in the last two years, which has really captured the public imagination, is going to turbocharge productivity, we're not really seeing really great examples of how it's improving productivity, but what it is doing is massively increasing the energy use of the companies that are producing it.

And so we've seen this year companies like Google and Microsoft reporting massive spikes in their energy use.

And similarly, the way that generative AI and AI works is through data processing and massive data processing centres, which is scattered around the world. And we're seeing those data processing centres being built often in areas which are already suffering from drought.

So we've seen problems in places like Spain and also in Latin America, where local communities have been protesting against new builds of data centres, which will effectively take all the water in places where people are struggling to have enough drinking water as it is.

So the environmental consequences are all around sort of from start to finish and everything in between. And so, as I say, it's almost like we're burying our heads in the sand if we don't look at this.

And I think that, you know, just looking at the, the energy usage of for example, AI search over a standard search - I think last year there was an estimate that it was about 10 times more energy intensive to just run a search on an AI search engine instead of using a sort of standard Google search engine.

I don't know this year what that is because it seems like the scale and the intensity of the power usage is escalating as the models themselves escalate.

But it is when you think about it, it's a bit like sort of taking Concorde to the corner shop using an AI search to just, you know, find out.

Kel: It's a great way of putting it, yeah.

Susie: You know, find out where your nearest supermarket is or something, you know, it's really, you know, I think we need to think really, really carefully about what it's for, why we need it and what the costs are.

Kel: Right? Yeah, definitely. I was thinking that with regards to, yeah, the, the energy use and I saw something in the Guardian with regards to Ireland this past couple of weeks and their energy. Yeah. So, so just thinking about the fact that you can just kind of like, I don't know, use ChatGPT, like the free version and anyone can do it just to mess about and not even considering the implications.

Susie: Yeah, writing pointless haikus, it's whatever.

Kel: Yeah, exactly. .Please write me a poem like I'm Rumi’ you know,

Susie: Exactly. About the environment.

Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And once we like pull that veil back and we can, we can really see what's going on, we start to look at the reality of it - I'll be honest, I think a lot of people feel overwhelmed.

I think when you see like the cobalt mining, I mean, I recommend anyone just go and YouTube that and see for yourself some of the images and the videos of the conditions of these, these people are living and working and it's, it's. disgusting and disgraceful to see and also I think a lot of people, you know, in the West, especially, were just like, ‘Oh, well, oh, poor things. Oh, that's so sad.’

You know, we've got nothing but pity to offer.

And, you know, I don't think that's helpful for us to feel disempowered either, like we can't really do anything.

So I'm wondering if there's any, like, practical ways that you think that we can actually make a difference.

Like, do you think there's anything we can do to participate to make it more sustainable?

Or is it just a case of like, you know, pulling the veil back and, and discerning for yourself how you can do your best?

Susie: I think on an individual level it's always gonna be a challenge, but you know, I mean, one thing you can do is buy less tech, throw less stuff away, or recycle more.

Kel: Yeah.

Susie: Which, I mean, I know that sounds a bit you know, a bit facile, but you know, there are companies that are trying to make a difference.

So, for example, there's one called Fairphone, where they are trying to design a phone, which is, you know, fair in terms of the way it's made and the supply chains as much as possible, and is also repairable.

And designed to last at least 10 years and for, you know, the different components to be swapped out if they're not working.

So, you know, I think there are companies that are going in that direction.

And we're also starting to see legislation, for example, in the EU about environmental and human rights sustainability more generally in consumer products, but which can apply to tech products.

And I think what we can always do as individuals is, is make ourselves aware of what's happening and also, you know, ask our politicians and our lawmakers to protect people and, you know, tell them what we want, the societies we want to live in because ultimately, you know, regulation can help very much to push industries in different directions.

Kel: Yeah, yeah, hopefully. I heard Sam Altman talk in an interview about how he's really big on nuclear, whatever that means, like but yeah, it's interesting to think how, like, they're thinking about energy and, and just the scale of it was, I think it just, yeah, it was quite telling, really.

Susie: one of the things I do think is that at the moment, and, you know, while I was writing the book the really big hype cycle on AI and generative AI in particular was in full swing.

I am starting to sense that that might be changing, you know, when people are, instead of being terrified that they're going to be left behind the curve, people are starting to now ask questions about productivity, about environmental impact about human impact.

And so, you know, it may well be that what we've seen in the last year or two we won't be seeing in the next couple of years.

You know these things can come and go quite fast and it wasn't so long ago that we were all going to be living our lives in the metaverse.

So things can change quite fast.

Kel: Moving on to women's health apps and the risks of AI in healthcare diagnostics - this is something that's close to my heart personally as someone who's got stage four endometriosis and has been seeing the rise of, of these kinds of apps, literally over the past 12 months, I'd say.

They seem to have just kind of like there's been a tsunami of them.

And in your book you talk of the need to look carefully before we rush to incorporate AI into every aspect of our lives, and you know, a lot of these apps are claiming to aid health and wellness or solve what seem to be, as we them as unsolvable problems.

So I'm wondering what you see as being the risks and benefits of using AI powered apps in health diagnostics and care, particularly for diseases like endometriosis and things where there is no cure and there's no known cause, and there's a lot of uncertainty.

Susie: Yeah, no, I mean, I think there are a large amount of risks.

And you know, the health space is one where we're often told that, you know, there are great opportunities for AI to sort of, to solve cancer or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, it's, you know, this great push.

I think one of the big risks is, you know, firstly, AI is lots of different things, you know, AI is not just a chat bot or you know an app on your phone, but those are the things that are the easiest to deploy and to sell and to sell at scale.

One of the things I looked at in my first book in particular was period tracker apps.

And I mean, the monitoring of women's wellness is just massive, massive money through apps and they're are you know, several big problems with that.

You know, there have been some of those apps that have run into problems with privacy, where it's been clear that they didn't hold data securely, so they're gathering really sensitive data that might, and you know, when you look, now at places like the US where you're gathering data that might indicate that somebody has gone for an abortion or was looking for an abortion, the kind of data which could land, land you up in, in jail in some places, but also just sort of intimate information about people's sex lives and about their health, which might be used against them when it's sold on.

And we see that the same in, in mental health apps.

But aside from the sort of the privacy questions and the security questions, I mean, one of the big issues with a lot of these apps is, is whether or not they're actually real. And, you know, false advertising, you know, the term snake oil came from false advertising of snake oil for medicinal purposes and AI and tech based snake oil is all around us.

I mean, one example of an app that the Federal Trade Commission recently found to be unlawful because it was had absolutely no or very, very little evidence to show that it worked, was an app that claimed that it could diagnose sexually transmitted diseases by uploading a dick pic. So effectively, you just take a photo of your prospective partner's penis and it will tell you immediately whether or not they might have an STD.

Unsurprisingly, the Federal Trade Commission found that there was very little evidence to demonstrate that that was in any way true. And that app is no longer available.

But those kind of things, you know, they are everywhere. And you know, it is a real challenge, but going back to that question about tech outstripping the law, you know, the law on false advertising and fraud remains in place.

It might just take a bit longer to uncover or to enforce in these kinds of cases. But I think that's a real problem of sort of tech optimism saying, you know, wow, we've got all this amazing tech, so we're going to be able to solve all of your health problems and all of your mental health problems, physical health problems.

That's not necessarily true.

Kel: Yeah, yeah. And it's all in the wording as well. I came across, my partner is a nurse, and she came across something the other day. She's like, you need to check this out. It's a new website and app in, I think it's coming out of the States. And It's supposedly you can find a cure for endometriosis and it's like, it takes years to get a diagnosis.

We'll get you an answer in days. That's like, that's amazing. That's great. If only guys.

Susie: Just upload a selfie.

Kel: Yeah, yeah, right. That's it. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, good. That sounds great. If only, yeah, why didn't we just think of that earlier? Like this woman, she's got it sorted. Yeah, anyway, Yeah, closing out this second to last chapter you write, and I think this is just so poignant, 'at some point we need to ask the big questions. What is the point? Where will it take us? Is it worth the cost? Technology is not inherently bad, but it's not a panacea for all our problems.'

So, yeah, what are the risks of viewing it in such idealistic terms? Because I'll be honest, I think a lot of people are here. That's my feeling in society here in Australia.

I think more so than I'm feeling from my friends in the UK and what they're experiencing. So, yeah, and I'm thinking about the example you share about Babylon Health. The health startup claiming to be a doctor in your pocket app.

Yeah, well Babylon health was, was precisely that. It was a sort of online GP service, but it was, it was something again that was really taken up around the world, including here in the UK with, you know, billions [00:29:00] being pumped into it as this is going to be the future of healthcare because, you know, it means that everyone can sort of see a doctor immediately and get this sort of immediate diagnosis.

But Babylon, you know, despite its success and promise effectively folded. I think it was last year, two years ago. Because ultimately the tech wasn't there. It was all sort of smoke and mirrors. So the information that it was trying to use was sort of information that had been inputted into an Excel sheet by some real doctors in the back office, but that wasn't capable of adjusting to kind of the complexity and the subtlety of real life patients who don't necessarily explain themselves or tell you things in the exact terms that have been inputted sort of into the Excel spreadsheet.

So I think there's a real danger of believing, really wanting to believe that we can solve these problems with technology.

And I mean, another very famous example [00:30:00] was Theranos, you know, claiming that they could do blood tests with a tiny drop of blood from a prick of the finger. You know, huge hype, the future of healthcare, absolutely revolutionary. And you know, it's founders then landed up in jail because ultimately it wasn't true.

The science wasn't there. Just wanting it to be true is not enough to make it, to make it happen. And I think another danger that we can see is where you land up with money being pumped into the technology instead of the people that we need in the healthcare system with this idea that it's going to be cheaper, it's going to revolutionise everything.

It's going to be super efficient.

And you know, I remember last year, I unfortunately had to spend an evening in an emergency room in the UK, staring at a screen, a massive screen on the wall, which read Your license has expired, please contact your administrator. [00:31:00] And you know, this screen was on the wall in A& E lit up with electricity as a kind of emblem while the nurses and doctors were running around desperately trying to cope with the scale of, you know, a London A& E.

And you're thinking, that really says it all. You know, someone has bought a license for something that's going to be on this screen instead of just being there. sticking a piece of paper on the wall and now, you know, the license has expired and it doesn't work. Maybe the company's gone bust. Who knows?

And I think that's a real problem is, you know, thinking about where we put the money. And actually for some things like health, the law is another area I think that I think we need to be very careful not to allow ourselves to be conned into believing that we're not going to need people in the future. Recognise that, you know, that these are vitally human professions, if you like, and that technology can help the humans, but it's not [00:32:00] going to replace them.

And we really need to think about whether it works. I think always ask, does it work?

Yeah, yeah, that's it. And that it doesn't fill, fill the void. where, you know, doctors and nurses and physios should be, for example. Like, I'm seeing them here become quite prominent they're being marketed around, in terms of endometriosis around regional and rural women, women who can't get access to metropolitan clinicians and, and gynaes, or simply can't travel 500k

so yeah, it's kind of like, oh, well. That'll solve the problems for them. And it's like, well. Telehealth's one thing, and that's a great service, and I think it's actually revolutionised care in a great way, in a lot of respects, through COVID, but also, it's not enough, you know to have that in a chatbot.

Susie: Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's just, it's not all or nothing, is the thing, that, you know, and health care costs money.

Kel: Exactly, especially when it's complex, for sure. [00:33:00]

So, looking ahead to the future what do you see as, like the biggest battles between, human rights and, and AI, particularly for women and how do you think we can prepare for them?

Susie: I think it, it's complicated and you know, to give a real lawyer's answer, it depends. It partly depends where you are and and who you are, I suppose. I think there are, There are huge battles coming.

There are huge battles that are underway. And certainly sort of in Europe, where we have the general data protection regulation, where data protection has been very strongly regulated. You know, we're still seeing what data protection regulation means for the protection of human rights more broadly through cases coming forward.

And we do see, we are seeing shifts already. I think one of the big areas for women is the way that women are [00:34:00] portrayed and approached, if you like, in the online environment, because I think how women are seen around the world in this sort of online space is really affecting how women are seen and treated in the real world.

So tackling, for example, the systems that underline sort of the pushing of content algorithmically, whether that's pushing misogynistic content on young men and boys in order to, to sort of turn them against women, or whether it's pushing sort of toxic, self hating kind of content on young women and girls affecting their mental health.

I think we really need to change those systems and to change our information environment so that it's not a kind of cesspool of radicalisation, which at the moment it is not just because of individual bits of content, but because of the way people are targeted, [00:35:00] sort of profiled and targeted and bombarded with messages that then affect how they think about themselves and how they think about each other.

And in this sort of new wave of generative ai, you know, perhaps unsurprisingly, one of the immediate outcomes has been the surge in deep fake pornography and image-based sexual abuse online against women and girls. But you know, when you look at that non-consensual deep fake sexual imagery in the uk.

A couple of months ago, previous government announced that they were going to make that illegal as, as part of the, kind of, the development of the Online Safety Act. And overnight, one of the main websites providing those services was unavailable. in the UK because of pending regulatory and legal changes.

So for me, that was a real sign [00:36:00] that changing the law works. Addressing these things very clearly in the law changes the direction of things. It's not going to get rid of image-based sexual abuse. non consensual deep fake images of women, but it will reduce it. If people realize that it's unacceptable, that it's illegal, that you could go to prison for doing this.

Most people don't want to do that. You know, there are clearly people who commit criminal offenses always, but most people don't want to do that. And so making it very clear where the legal lines of criminality are, I think will make a big difference.

And perhaps another area which I feel quite hopeful about is in terms of enforcement.

So one tool that the U. S. Federal Trade Commission has been using when it finds a product or platform to be acting unlawfully is what's called algorithmic disgorgement, where instead of just having to pay a [00:37:00] fine and carry on with business as usual, They order the company to destroy their algorithm, to destroy their model.

And I think that way we will see a shift. I think it really helps to focus the mind at the stage of developing and researching a product. If you understand that if you get it wrong and step the wrong side of the line, then all of this money and your entire business will be destroyed. So I think that as well is a sort of, for me, a hopeful step in the right direction of making it clear that laws and regulations do apply to technology and that they will be enforced seriously.

Kel: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that is something to definitely bring a beacon of hope and to, to empower us to realise that, hey, we've got choices and we can make them. And we, it's, it's within our power. And it's important to remember that I think every day it's, you know, these algorithms are shaping our minds the way we think, [00:38:00] the way we, we move in, in such subtle, nuanced ways.

It crawls up your brainstem. I mean, it's, it's it's, it's hard, isn't it? Right? It's, it's a battle. So yeah. To, to hear. those wins is obviously, yeah hopeful. And the insights you shared, Susie from your new book, Human Rights, Robot Wrongs, I think they really just challenge us to reflect on not only how we use the technology, but like how it shapes every aspect of our lives in return, our relationships, everything we do.

And yeah, for everyone looking to equip themselves with the knowledge, which I recommend you do, especially women, on how to navigate the complexities of technology. I think a lot of women think it's not their business, to be honest. I came from a tech background. I worked in a team of like 75 people.

It was just three women. The guys used to take bets on how long it'd be before you cried in the toilet. So yeah, I know what it's like to be in that environment. It's a very bro ish environment and you take such a human first approach with this [00:39:00] and I'm just so grateful for, for your work and for you joining me today.

Susie: It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Kel: And that, dear listeners, was my conversation with Susie Alegre.

I really hope you enjoyed listening to this conversation as much as I did being a part of it. It was truly enlightening to hear Susie's insights and I really recommend reading both of her books as the generosity of spirit that she has just shines through in every page.

To find out more about Susie's work, including where to find both books, please visit the show notes. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

For more info on The Lumir Mission Plant-based Medicine for Primary Dysmenorrhoea (Period Pain) Study head here

TRANSCRIPT

Kel: I'm Kel Myers and you're listening to Phoenix Sound.

In today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Kylie O'Brien, Chief Scientific Officer at Cannim Group.

Under her leadership, Cannim is sponsoring the Lumir Mission plant based medicine for primary dysmenorrhea study, conducted by the NICM Health Research Institute.

This study investigates the potential of plant based medicine to alleviate period pain. A condition that many women and girls endure in in silence because it's often dismissed as normal.

Having experienced debilitating periods for decades myself before being diagnosed with endometriosis four years ago, I understand the effect period pain can have on a person's life and how hard it is to find relief.

In the quest to find effective treatment, Dr. Kylie is at the forefront of promoting education and advocacy in her field. And today we'll dive into the scientific endeavors and goals of this crucial research, uncovering what makes this study such a significant leap forward in women's health. Stay with hi Kylie.

So can you give us an overview of the medicinal cannabis for primary dysmenorrhea study and what prompted the research team to explore this specific area?

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Well it’s a longitudinal, prospective, observational study in 65 women who are aged 20 years or over who are suffering from Primary Dysmenorrhea.

And it'll investigate the effectiveness of medicinal cannabis over six months.

So, Primary Dysmenorrhea is period pain which is not associated with any kind of pathology in the pelvis.

So, in this study, participants will have a consultation with a medical doctor and be prescribed the medicinal cannabis products from a project formulary and they'll complete various questionnaires at baseline and then monthly online. So, study's been conducted by the NICM Health Research Institute at Western Sydney University.

So, the, the NICM Health Research Institute, one of the top research institutes for research into plant based medicines, including medicinal cannabis.

So I guess the key aim of the study is to investigate whether medicinal cannabis products as a whole, as well as specific subcategories, which we call chemotypes of products are effective in alleviating pelvic pain associated with Primary dysmenorrhea, as well as some of the other symptoms that you get associated with it.

And I'll just explain those terms.

Chemotype One is a high THC cannabis product.

Chemotype Two is a balanced product where you get similar ratios of the two major phyto cannabinoids, Tetra hydro cannabinol, or THC and cannabidiol or CBD.

And then the Chemotype Three is the high CBD with low THC types of products.

So when you ask about what prompted us to explore this specific area of health, well, I guess it's been a lot of research conducted into different forms of chronic pain. And there's some evidence from systematic reviews that indicates that medicinal cannabis might be able to alleviate at least some forms of chronic pain.

And when I looked into it I found that there haven't been a lot of studies specifically in primary dysmenorrhea.

So there was a large, what they call systematic review of medicinal cannabis use for gynaecological pain and that was 16 studies.

And a subset of, set of that was seven studies, which were seven cross sectional surveys, which investigated whether cannabis to treat gynaecological pain was useful or not.

And in that study, they found that the prevalence of cannabis use was anywhere between 13 and 27 percent across four of those studies.

The rate of pain relief was anywhere between 61 and 95 percent across Six studies.

Kel: Wow. They're huge numbers, aren't they? 61. Can you just say that again? 61 to 90.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: 95%. So the rate of pain relief across the six studies that looked at this found that the rate of pain relief was anywhere between 61 and 95%. And some of the studies, interestingly, also found that medicinal cannabis use was associated with decreased analgesic use, including opioids.

But the thing was, none of those studies were specifically in primary dysmenorrhea.

They were in gynaecological pain due to a number of different things. But none in primary dysmenorrhea.

Then I found another study that was done in Australia.

It was qualitative research. It was like a focus group in 26 women with primary dysmenorrhea this time, and it found that the current treatment strategies like non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs and heat and other non-pharmaceutical management didn't provide adequate pain control and there was a dissatisfaction with the current management strategies like over the counter analgesics was a key driver for these particular women wanting to use medicinal cannabis.

So up until then when I first did the literature research, that was largely what I found.

But then recently I found a study had been published in Cannabidiol Isolate, which suggests that it may reduce menstruation related symptoms like anxiety and irritability and stress.

So and of course there's studies in other populations that indicate that medicinal cannabis might be effective for things like anxiety and poor sleep. And so those are often also there -they call them comorbidities as well as the pain in primary dysmenorrhea.

So we've got a few studies that are sort of pointing in the right direction saying well possibly this might work for primary dysmenorrhea but there really is a lack of, of clinical research to be able to guide practitioners into whether you know medicinal cannabis might be a suitable option for women who aren't responding to say orthodox strategies.

And I suppose the other bit of interesting stuff is that when you look in the animal research they have found and other forms of research, cell research, they call that preclinical research, we do know that components of medicinal cannabis have got anti inflammatory actions, as well as analgesic actions, we do know from studies in animal models that THC and a, what they call a synthetic isomer of CBD, as well as agonists, of the cannabinoid receptors in the body can reduce excessive myometrial contractility in animal models.

And that's part of what causes the pain in primary dysmenorrhea is that you get excess contractility of the muscle layer in the uterus.

So, I guess when you look at it, the endocannabinoid system, a lot of people don't understand that we've got this regulatory neuro- and immuno- regulatory system in the body that regulates most bodily systems, if not all of them.

And it's very relevant to primary dysmenorrhea because we have the endocannabinoid system components in the reproductive organs.

So the endocannabinoid system regulates analgesia and pain, stress and emotions, sleep, nausea and vomiting. It regulates so many different things in the body. I've just read out some of the ones that are kind of relevant to primary dysmenorrhea.

And the other thing is that components of medicinal cannabis, can interact with that endocannabinoid system. So when you put all that together, you think, all right, well, there is some rationale for bothering to go into some clinical research, at least some preliminary research, which is what we're doing.

It's a small study in women with primary dysmenorrhea to find out, well, could it be effective or not?

Kel: Yeah, I'd love to come back to the CBD and the THC and the distinction between the two in a minute. But I'll just park that for a second while we just go through the research methodology.

I'm just wondering what the criteria was for selecting participants and how do you ensure that the treatment is suitable given how complex medicinal cannabis is.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Yeah, well look like any other substance study there are definite inclusion criteria and exclusion criteria for coming into a study.

So some of the inclusion criteria, I won't read them all out, but obviously they've got to have primary dysmenorrhea not secondary dysmenorrhea, so secondary dsymenorrhea is period pain, but it's due to a pathology like endometriosis, for example.

So we're working with primary dysmenorrhea.

The participants have to be 20 years or over and not used cannabis within the last three months.

They've got to be willing to undertake some safety blood tests and be able and willing to complete the study questionnaires sent to them and be obviously willing to give informed consent to be part of the study. And they've got to be willing to use contraception for the duration of the study.

And they're the sort of standard things I guess you'd expect in a clinical study.

And then there's a range of exclusion criteria.

So for example you know, a, a current medical condition, which in the opinion of the study coordinator or the medicinal cannabis doctor who's going to be involved in the study is a contraindication for medicinal cannabis; if they're pregnant or planning to become pregnant during the study duration then they can't come into the study; if they're not willing to use contraception for the duration of the study.

So there's a number of different inclusion and exclusion criteria that if people are interested in looking at, our participating clinic the Natura Healthcare Clinic website has the details for that.

But look, at the end of the day, even if someone was screened and look, they met the inclusion criteria and didn't have any of those exclusion criteria, and they came into the study the first, I guess, step is that they have to have a consultation with a doctor through Natura Healthcare Clinic.

And that doctor will really ultimately decide -are they suitable for treatment with medicinal cannabis or not? And if the doctor says, "I don't think medicinal cannabis is actually suitable for you", for whatever reason, then it's not going to be prescribed and that potential participant wouldn't be able to continue in the study.

So at the end of the day I guess the medical doctor has the last word on whether someone comes into the study.

Kel: Now, just circling back to medicinal cannabis and its role, I think, you know, there's a lot of misinformation and pseudoscience that orbits around medicinal cannabis, as you, you will well know.

Distorting what it is and how it works in the body. Yes. And particularly, I think, when it comes to the distinction between CBD and THC. Yes. Now, for those who are new to the space, like many of us, people are, most of the general public are seeking clarity. I'd love it if you could explain the differences just on a basic level of say high THC versus high CBD formulations.

And also as well, just an additional point, what types of medicinal cannabis products are being used in the study? I'd love to know that too - thank you.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Two great questions. And look, medicinal cannabis, cannabis has, you know, it has almost 2000 constituents in it.

There's probably now well over 200 what they call phyto cannabinoids.

And they've got many different terpenes.

The terpenes are essential oil like substances that give the plant its characteristic smell, and you've got many other plant nutrients.

So it's not just one thing, but mostly people hear about the two major phyto cannabinoids: tetrahydrocannabinol or THC and cannabidiol or CBD.

But there are other minor phyto cannabinoids as well, and they've got therapeutic actions.

So it's believed that the combination of all these plant nutrients is what helps determine the therapeutic action of different medicinal cannabis products.

So it's not just one thing in other words.

So it's not just CBD and THC. They call that the entourage effect where it's the other plant nutrients are adding to the overall therapeutic effect.

So medicinal cannabis is not one thing. It's not just one product.

And depending on what's in that medicinal cannabis product, that may impact on the therapeutic effect.

So THC and CBD are the two main phytocannabinoids. The main difference, I suppose, is that THC is the only phytocannabinoid that is associated with that potentially euphoric effect that you associate with, you know, for example, the smoking of cannabis recreationally or for adult use.

CBD does not have that potentially euphoric effect.

And I say potentially because it's dose dependent.

So, you know, with THC, if you have a small amount of THC, that's not going to cause that euphoria. If you have a large amount, yes, it could, as well as a whole lot of other perhaps less desirable side effects as well.

I think there's a big misconception that cannabis is one thing and you know, when it's actually not.

So CBD is not addictive. It doesn't havethat potential euphoria like THC can do.

But it's not to say it's not psychoactive because it's anxiolytic which means it can reduce anxiety for example.

So it does have an effect you know on your psyche if you like.

So the two of them, they work in different ways, so THC is what they call a partial agonist, which means it binds with the cannabinoid receptors that we have in our brain, and the various parts of our body.

Whereas CBD has a low affinity for those, it still binds with them, but less affinity, and it acts through lots of different other receptors.

So like the serotonin receptors, for example.

So they work through different mechanisms of action if you like but they've both got some similar actions.

So there's analgesic effects, pain relieving effects, anti inflammatory effects, antioxidant effects, and a whole raft of beneficial effects that both THC and CBD have. But CBD has some special sort of actions in that it's anxiolytic whereas too much THC can actually cause anxiety. It's anti psychotic, it's also anti seizure.

So you find a lot of the clinical studies in CBD have been conducted into severe forms of epilepsy, for example.

Kel: Yeah.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: So they're kind of the main sort of differences, I suppose, but, you know, they complement each other and usually you'll find in, in oils, for example, that is if you've got a high THC oil, you're going to have some CBD in there and supposedly the CBD can help mitigate some of the perhaps more undesirable effects of side effects of THC as well as improve its good effects.

So they're often combined together. So in our Project Formulary, for example, we've got both flower products and oil products.

With the oils, we've got a high CBD product. We've got a balanced, which means the CBD and THC ratios around about the same. And then we've got a high THC oil. With the flower, we've got a number of different what they call cultivated varieties or cultivars of flowers.

And again, because they've got different phytochemical profiles, they could have slightly different effects, therapeutic effects on the body.

And the reason we've got different types of things is that different cultivars and different types of products will be individualised to the patient. So it's not like you all get the same thing: plant medicines don't work like that.

And I guess the flower, for example, has a fast onset.

You inhale something, its onset of action is really fast, you know, five to ten minutes, but it lasts, say, two to four hours. The oils have a slower onset of action, maybe one to three hours, but they have longer lasting effects, six to eight hours.

So, in this study, it's an observational study. It's not a randomised controlled trial. So an observational study.

We are collecting real world data and the cannabis products are going to be individualised to the patient and as I said, prescribed through a doctor at the Natura Healthcare Clinic.

So, depending on what the other health issues that the patient might present with, the doctor will choose the particular product or maybe a combination of products for that patient and the patient of course will remain under the care of the doctor during the study.

Kel: Thank you so much for taking the time to explain those distinctions and provide some clarity.

I think that's, that's just so helpful to the audience to just understand the basic building blocks of medicinal cannabis so they can go on their own educational journey from there. So thank you so much for that. Just moving on to impact, given how individualised medicinal cannabis is, how do you measure success of a study like this?

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Yeah, that's a great question.

Look you go into a study, you set up your hypothesis and you measure what we call outcome variables. So in this case, our main or primary outcome variable is the severity of the menstrual pain associated with primary dysmenorrhea and it's going to be measured on a zero to ten numerical rating scale.

So that's the first thing that they record in a menstrual diary during the first three days of the menses.

But then they are sent other questionnaires which are filled in online.

So you know, there's a premenstrual symptom screening test, for example, that asks about anxiety and tension and sleep and work efficiency leading up to the period.

We've got a quality of life questionnaire in there.

We've got a questionnaire about menstrual flow, pharmaceutical use- whether they have to use rescue medication like a non steroidals or, you know, or other kind of painkillers. We're also tracking safety data. So we ask them to log any side effects each month as part of the questionnaires.

But of course, if they had any sort of side effects that were more serious then they need to obviously contact the doctor immediately, etc.

And we're also doing some blood tests for safety.

So at baseline, three months and six months, they have to have some blood tests where we're tracking just to make sure that there are no changes to, for example, liver or kidney function.

And we're also got a cannabis use disorder questionnaire at the end of the study too, because we want to, you know, ensure that those who were taking THC medicines haven't developed any sort of cannabis use disorder, for example.

So they're the main things that we're kind of tracking, I guess, in the study.

Kel: I love the fact that you're taking an entire view, like the quality of life aspect of it and it's not just one thing and just the understanding that, you know, painful periods, obviously there's going to be anxiety, there's going to be depression, there's going to be these horrible side effects because, you know, it's affecting your quality of life ultimately.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Of course it is.

Kel: Yeah, I love that holistic approach.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Yeah. I mean those sorts of things are very important because those sorts of things make life a bit of misery, don't they, if you're always anxious or you're, you know, you're not getting proper sleep. You know, the, the flow on effect is an enormous cost to women, but it's also an enormous cost to society as well in terms of, you know, absenteeism from study or work or, you know, if you're able to show up then, you know, not being effective at work, things like that.

They're all important things that impact not only on the individual, of course, but, you know, there's a social cost as well and an economic cost, I guess, too.

Yeah, yeah, most definitely. I think in terms of findings, I know it's still quite early days. Is it April that the study began? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Have you found anything that stood out yet?

No, not really.

Yeah. Way too early. No, we've only just started recruiting. We've just started to have our first few participants sort of come through and be prescribed. So we're very much at the starting gates, but I'm hoping next year that we might be able to jump on this podcast again, and I can actually you know, report on what we found.

Kel: I would love that. Yeah. Thank you. That'd be, that'd be beautiful. I think. This kind of study is obviously groundbreaking in many ways, as you explained at the start, and we're very much at the beginning of the journey, research wise, in terms of medicinal cannabis here and just globally in general, especially when it comes to women's health and addressing these issues.

What are some of the biggest challenges in conducting a study like this? Especially considering that, even though, you Cannabis is legal, there's still some stigma around it in society today.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Yeah, and I think that's right.

It is about breaking down the stigma because, you know, it's only in recent times, 2016, that it became available for medical use in this country.

It's still considered an unapproved medicine by the Therapeutic Goods Administration, which means it can only be prescribed by a doctor in some states, as a nurse practitioner, but, you know, so but there's a legacy of all the, the I guess in some ways, a lot of propaganda you know, when it was first prohibited in the U. S. and other countries sort of followed suit back in the 1930s.

There's a lot of stigma around it, a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of doctors don't understand a lot about it and so they would rather sort of, you know, in some cases ignore it or dismiss it rather than sort of look into it.

So I think, you know, in a lot of cases, it's the patients coming forward and saying, well, I'm interested in this.

And look, recruitment's always a challenge in conducting research.

I don't think it matters what study you'd sort of doing. It's always, you know difficult to recruit because it's trying to get the message out there to a target group that might be interested in being part of a, you know, a clinical study.

So I guess they're just some of the challenges, but I think you probably hit the nail on the head actually, is it, you know, there's this stigma around it. But that's gradually being broken down as more and more doctors are becoming educated, pharmacists as well, become educated about it. And that's not to say it's a magic bullet.

It's you know, there are safety aspects that need to be considered.

It's not for everyone.

But it can be useful in some conditions. It's just that the evidence base is growing, if you like. There's a lot of, preclinical research, research in cells and animals and things like that.

There's less research in humans in general, across the board with medicinal cannabis. And so, you know, there's less to, I guess reassure doctors that it could be useful. So that's part of it as well. We need to grow the evidence base.

To find out either way, is it useful for this condition or not?

Is it safe in this condition or not?

And we have to be also, as researchers, be willing to, to find out it doesn't work for something. You know, that's, that's part of being a researcher.

Kel: Yeah, that science, isn't it? It's just as important to be able to disprove something as it is to say, yes, this is, this works.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Yeah.

Kel: Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I think that, yeah, there is that stigma and I think we're in this funny kind of transformational period at the moment where there's so much more focus on just patient led care, patient advocacy and people just really taking charge of their health.

And I think that's helping to offset some of maybe the clinical lack of understanding or misinformation. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, interesting times.

What impact do you think this study will have on on future research around period pain management and women's health more generally? What are you expecting to see maybe happen?

Dr Kylie O'Brien: This is a modest, I call it a pilot study, it's a small study and it's observational.

So the advantage of an observational study is that we're really looking at people under real world conditions and using it over more extended time periods, in this case six months.

So we're really working out. at a basic level, look, does medicinal cannabis appear to, to work or not?

And which, you know, of those subtypes of cannabis products might be effective or not?

Now, if we do find that it looks like that there is evidence of effectiveness that would be a signal to us that, you know, that, you know, Keep going with the research. It might be worth looking at it in more depth for period pain.

You'd obviously need much larger scale studies to more definitively investigate whether medicinal cannabis is effective or not though.

So, you know, I'm under no illusions. Our first study here being conducted by the NICM Health Research Institute is very much a pilot study, very early days, but if we do find that this is showing promise, then that would, you know, that would say, all right maybe we go into a much larger study now.

And that could include a randomised controlled trial type of study design in the future as well.

Kel: Just moving on to listeners considering medicinal cannabis who are maybe or maybe have tried it and not had success and maybe want to give it a go again. What advice would you give to someone considering this to treat menstrual pain related symptoms?

And yeah, what steps should people take to approach it responsibly? And I want to also add in there, so it's sustainable for them as well.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: That's right.

Well, look, as I said earlier, medicinal cannabis is an unapproved good in Australia.

Cannabidiol products, mostly, not all, but most of them are Schedule 4 (Prescription only) medicines.

Most of the Products containing THC are Schedule 8 (Controlled drugs), so they have to be prescribed by a doctor.

So I would say that anyone who's contemplating medicinal cannabis treatment for period pain should consult a doctor who's trained in medicinal cannabis to find out whether it's the best option for them or not.

If it's period pain and they don't know what's causing it, obviously they would need to investigate that first because it could be a secondary condition there that's causing it, that needs treatment, right?

But if it was primary dysmenorrhea and everything else had been ruled out then, you know, if they wanted to look at medicinal cannabis, then I'd say, well, look, talk to your regular GP if your regular GP is, is open minded about it or open to it.

You know, consult someone who's trained in medicinal cannabis specifically. There are a lot of doctors now who are Authorized Prescribers of medicinal cannabis or prescribe through the Special Access Scheme B, they're both TGA schemes to prescribe medicinal cannabis. So and that doctor can then decide whether it's, You know, the right thing for them or not, because as I said, it's not for everyone.

Some components of medicinal cannabis, like CBD and, and THC, they can interact with some pharmaceutical drugs, for example. And medicinal cannabis needs to be dosed properly. Otherwise, it could cause, you know, some undesirable side effects. So, a doctor can help or a nurse practitioner can help guide the patient in how to do that:achieve the right dosage that's appropriate for them. I don't recommend having a crack at it yourself or using anything from the black market or gray market. You don't know the quality of those products that are on the more illicit market, if you like.

The TGA does some great stuff, and part of what it does well is quality control of medicines and complementary medicines in Australia. So all those products that are on the legal market, have to hold evidence of quality to be able to be on the market.

So I would always advise people go the legal route.

Get advice from a doctor trained in it and individualised for you.

And you know, that might take a little bit of tweaking to work out what the dose is, the right dose for you is, the right products for you are.

So yeah, I think just, just be sensible and safe about it.

And as I said, it, it isn't for everyone. And and I guess the reason it's still an unapproved good is, you know, because the evidence base is still building around it..

Kel: Thank you so much Kylie. That's so helpful and insightful and just moving on now to final thoughts as we, as we wrap up Could you share a key takeaway that you hope the public, the general public will understand about medicinal cannabis and its potential benefits for period pain, but also just more broadly, what's like one thing you'd like people to know?

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Well, I think I think it's important to realise medicinal cannabis, as I said earlier, is not one thing. There are many different types of cannabis products with different phytochemical profiles. And I just reiterate, if you're considering it, go and see a doctor trained in it who can assess whether it's right for you or not.

And I think it's important to realise at this point, there is a lack of scientific evidence for its use in primary dysmenorrhea, which is exactly why we're doing this study. And as I said I hope to be able to report on the results back here sometime next year.

Kel: I'll very much look forward to that, Kylie.

And I'll make sure that the link to the study is in the show notes, so anybody that's interested in finding out more can, can take a look at that. as well. And all the best with the study and yeah, I look forward to catching up again soon.

Dr Kylie O'Brien: Thanks very much, Kel.

Kel: Thanks so much, Kylie.

And that dear listeners brings to close my conversation with Dr. Kylie O'Brien.

For more information on the Lumir Mission Plant Based Medicine for Primary Dysmenorrhea Study, please visit the show notes or search online.

Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

In this enlightening episode of Phoenix Sound, host Kel Myers delves deeper into the world of medicinal cannabis with Dr Amy Carmichael, an authorised prescriber in medicinal cannabis and a lifestyle and functional medical doctor with over 17 years of experience.

Join us as we unpack the ethics of the medicinal cannabis industry, explore what a patient-centred approach to care looks like in this space, and discuss some exciting future developments for women with endometriosis.

Key Highlights:

• 00:01:00 - Patient Education: Dr Amy Carmichael shares her approach to educating patients about the benefits and uses of medicinal cannabis, addressing the stigma and misconceptions surrounding its use​​ .


• 00:02:00 - Tailored Treatments: Learn about the personalised paths Dr Amy takes with her patients, from those new to cannabis to long-time users, emphasising the importance of respect and intention in treatment​​ .


• 00:04:00 - Medicinal Cannabis and Endometriosis: Discover how cannabis can alleviate chronic pain and improve the quality of life for endometriosis patients, with personal stories illustrating its transformative effects​​ .


• 00:07:00 - Ethics and Challenges: Explore the ethical considerations and challenges within the cannabis industry, including the role of big companies and the importance of finding empathetic and knowledgeable practitioners​​ .


• 00:20:00 - Future Innovations: Hear about the promising future of medicinal cannabis, including the development of CBD and THC vaginal pessaries and other new treatments on the horizon​​ .

Dr Amy Carmichael's expertise and passion for her work provide invaluable insights into how medicinal cannabis is shaping the future of pain management. Whether you're new to medicinal cannabis or looking to deepen your understanding, this episode offers a wealth of information and inspiration.

Find out more about her work: https://www.dramycarmichael.com/

Please note: The views expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Phoenix Sound. This content is intended for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. If you are affected by any of the issues discussed in this episode, we encourage you to seek support from a qualified professional.