"Percys had my soul, Percys had my soul!” – Percocet by Dave East & Araabmuzik

The opioid crisis didn’t just happen. It was designed.

For decades, marginalised communities across the world have been over-policed, over-prescribed, and systematically left to deal with the wreckage alone.

The war on drugs tore families apart—nowhere more visibly than in the U.S., where harsh sentencing laws and corporate-backed pharmaceutical lobbying continue to create cycles of addiction and incarceration. But this isn’t just an American problem.

From the UK to Australia, prohibitionist policies and economic disenfranchisement have given rise to powerful mythmaking in mainstream society. We were taught to fear cannabis—told it was a gateway drug, a danger, a threat. At the same time, we were conditioned to trust the pharmaceutical industry, despite its long history of profit-driven deception.

Prior generations were raised to revere the doctor—to see them as unquestionable authorities, the final word on life and death, sickness and health. Medicine was institutionalized, and with it, trust became doctrine. The idea that healing could come from outside the system—let alone from nature—was ridiculed, dismissed, even criminalized.

Generations have been raised on the belief that healing comes in the form of a pill, prescribed by a doctor who knows best. That discomfort should be masked, pain should be dulled, and symptoms—rather than root causes—should be managed indefinitely. The opioid epidemic, the rise of antidepressant dependency, and the explosion of chronic illness tell the story of where that thinking has led us.

But as we dislocate further from nature, we become sicker.

We now know the limitations of conventional treatment—as well as its incredible breakthroughs. This isn’t about upending modern medicine but expanding it. Integrative medicine isn’t a rejection of science; it’s a recognition that science itself must evolve. Expansive medicine considers the complexity of the human being—body, mind, and environment.

In The Fourth Turning, William Strauss and Neil Howe write:

“The myths that endure are those that illuminate the virtues (or vices) that successive generations see recurring in their own time.” (p.75)

We need to ask ourselves:

* What aren’t we willing to tolerate anymore?

* What don’t we want to see happen again?

* What won’t we put up with?

Right now, we have an opportunity to move beyond the binary of good vs evil by shining a light on truth over ideology, healing over profit, and possibility over fear.

Medicine is not a war.

Science is not a battleground of pharmaceuticals vs. nature, doctors vs. patients, or conventional vs. alternative.

It is, and always should be, an evolving pursuit of what works—what actually heals, empowers, and restores and what doesn’t.

What we’re witnessing right now is not just a shift in healthcare, it’s a reclamation of autonomy, knowledge, and connection.

We are not just patients. We are people entitled to actively participate in our own lives.

And we are rewriting the story.

From Season One to Season Two: A Metamorphosis

Hip-hop has always been the voice of the unheard. It tells the stories institutions try to bury—the consequences of failed systems, the weight of generational pain, the reality of survival when the odds are stacked against you.

This isn’t just about music. It’s about truth-telling in a world where narratives are controlled by those in power. When Dave East raps about his battle with oxycodone, he’s exposing what policymakers, pharmaceutical executives, and medical gatekeepers refuse to acknowledge: addiction isn’t just chemical. It’s systemic, cultural and generational.

Season One of Phoenix Sound was about exploration - a nomadic search for answers in a world where conventional medicine often fails those who need it most.

I sat down with people who weren’t afraid to challenge the status quo—people who’ve risked their reputations, careers, and livelihoods to speak the truth.

🔥 Amanda Blesing – A powerhouse in women’s leadership, Amanda showed us that breaking through isn’t about waiting for permission—it’s about demanding space.

🔥 Dr. Amy Carmichael – A doctor who lost everything for standing by her medical ethics. She taught us that like COVID-19, courage is also contagious.

🔥 Dr. Susie Alegre – An international human rights lawyer fighting for the freedom to think in an era of AI where surveillance and corporate control are normalised. She reminded us that autonomy and freedom start with the mind and that yes - humans do have rights.

These were people who didn’t just question the system—they stood against it, risking everything to speak truth to power. They weren’t just guests. They were signposts pointing toward something bigger.

The Architects of Transformation

This season, I’m speaking with people who don’t just navigate change—they ignite it.

Their work is disruptive, dynamic, and at times, dangerous. But they push forward because the alternative—staying silent—isn’t an option.

In the first episode of Season Two, I interviewed Mike Sassano, who, as CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, is pushing alternative medicine forward against a backdrop of institutional resistance. His company works with Cookies, a brand that’s deeply embedded in hip-hop culture, a reminder that cannabis isn’t just about medicine—it’s about identity, equity, and reclaiming freedom over our own healing.

We discussed:

🔥 The fight for a future where medicine is determined by science and patient need, not Big Pharma greed.

🔥 The vital role of education in the ongoing battle against misinformation.

🔥 What a truly integrative health system, where alternative medicine is accepted and accessible, looks like.

This is the metamorphosis.

🎧 Thanks for listening.

🔗 Watch Percocet:

Moving forward, we will be releasing new interviews on the first Friday of every month.

Please see below for timestamps, transcript and to submit questions, guest suggestions etc.

KEY TOPICS AND TIME MARKERS

[00:00:00] – Introduction

[00:02:00] - Mike Sassano’s Background & SOMAI Pharmaceuticals

[00:03:30] - Culture & Medical Cannabis: Beyond the Doctor’s Office

[00:06:00] - Personal Experience with Medical Cannabis

[00:07:30] - Terpenes & The Science of Medical Cannabis

[00:10:00] - The Power of Big Pharma in Healthcare Mythmaking

[00:22:30] - Reducing Stigma & The Fight for Medical Cannabis Equity

[00:28:00] - Expanding Alternative Medicine to Match Human Complexit 

[00:38:00] - The Future of Healthcare: What Comes Next?

[00:44:00] - Closing Reflection 

PODCAST LINKS:

·      Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com

·      Apple Podcasts: https://shorturl.at/R5iZN

·      Spotify: https://shorturl.at/wLteQ

·      RSS: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/1495034.rss

·      Pocketcasts: https://pca.st/2ef7kmo5

SOCIAL LINKS:

·      Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kel-myers-0790298/

·      X: https://x.com/Kelmyer5

·      Threads: @phoenixsoundbykelmyers 

·      Substack: https://phoenixsound.substack.com

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Today I'm joined by Mike Sassano, the CEO of SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, together we deep dive into the science behind medical cannabis. In today's conversation we focus on the groundbreaking role of terpenes in medical cannabis and how these compounds are reshaping patient care and influencing treatment outcomes.

The science backed potential of full spectrum cannabis to address a wide range of health challenges from inflammation to anxiety and the ongoing tension that exists between government regulations Big Farmers Interests, and the urgent need to put patients first in this ever evolving space. Stay with us.

Thanks for joining me on Phoenix Sound today, Mike. I really appreciate it.

I'd love if we can start with really what inspired your journey into medical cannabis, into this space, and also, if we can start by giving the audience an overview as well of SOMAI pharmaceuticals, that'd be really helpful.

[00:00:56] Mike Sassano: So, SOMAI Pharmaceuticals, was kind of created to bring, uh, cannabis products, uh, to the global markets. And then if you, uh, go back even further in history, uh, where my, where my roots are, uh, with cannabis.

Um, you know, I developed, uh, and built with my own hands and my brother and I both actually, um, built over 25 cannabis facilities in the United States. And as, uh, time went on, I realised that we could make, uh, better products by running our own facilities and, uh, and, and making better products for the patients because in the early form it was medical markets.

Um, And then, uh, taking that knowledge of creating better products, better flower, uh, for those medical patients, metamorphosised, um, as the market developed. And then I saw the development of the medical markets in the global markets, and I said, that's another place where I believe we can have an advantage, um, to help patients to get better products for those communities.

And so, Um, now Somai is 134 employees and we've reached 12 countries and growing, um, with our products and, uh, we've gone from, uh, simply making the most, uh, comprehensive portfolio for extracts to, um, to now owning our own cultivation and, um, Uh, not only growing for some of the best brands in the world like cookies, but also bringing flowers across the global market.

So we've, we've expanded quite well, um, to fit the shoes of a top vertically integrated multi country operator.

[00:02:36] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have heard of cookies, the brand. quite into hip hop and I've heard that brand referenced a few times by rappers. Um, yeah, just to see that growth and obviously Australia's seen significant growth in his medical cannabis market.

Ibis world. that between 2019 and 2024, the industry grew by 112%. I'm sure it's a little bit more than that, but um, you know, with SOMAI's current presence and interest in Australia, how, how do you see the market evolving or metamorphosizing as you say, you know, you've been there from, from really the start, um, growing in America and now you're global.

So yeah, I'd love to get your take on that.

[00:03:25] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you just said there is, um, you know, when you Uh, said, I identify, or I at least understand, or I've heard about cookies through hip hop and that. Um, uh, this is, this is very important because reaching, uh, different demographics, um, that can be helped with cannabis, um, doesn't stop, uh, just at the doctors.

 It also goes to the culture on what people are talking about and, and what products they are talking about within that community that help them. And so, um, I think, I've always said this and my articles have been very clear about this. Australia is one, it is the number one, um, market for medical, uh, cannabis selection with over 1, 300, uh, different SKUs in the market.

It's my favorite pick because it allows, um, the patients and the communities, the flexibility to choose products that work for them.

[00:04:25] Kel: Yeah. And

[00:04:25] Mike Sassano: so. Um, you know, I'm in, Somai is in, in, in very young markets, market where they only have a few indications and a few products allowed in that market. Um, there's countries out there that don't allow cannabis at all.

Um, and then you have Australia inside the medical, uh, markets, which, you know, allows people to really identify with their products and choose the products, uh, that work for them. You know, and, you know. When you make over 100 extract problems, uh, uh, products and you have, um, uh, over, uh, 50 different flower skews.

Well, guess what? You believe that, uh, uh, uh, patients should have choice. You embrace the fact that there's a lot of choices. I heard somebody here say, Well, that's just too many in the market. I said, Well, I don't think so. I think there should be more choices for the patients. I was like, as a matter of fact, I, I would disagree with you.

I would say Uh, just one of our dispensaries in the United States has more choices than that So I think uh, you know as time goes on you should have more choice, uh as In the markets.

[00:05:38] Kel: Yeah, absolutely And particularly around the type of product. So whether it's say an oil or an edible for example.

I know for for myself, living with endometriosis and dealing with like women's health.

Things like pessaries, for example, they're becoming quite common. They're, they're compounded more often here. I don't know of any brand that's, that's just bringing them to the market, but that's just an example of, um, another kind of route of delivery of the medicine that's, that's really quite life changing, uh, for women that are dealing with chronic pelvic pain.

[00:06:13] Mike Sassano: Yeah, there's no one size fits all to address these issues. I remember one doctor was telling me that, hey, I'm using a 10 for 10 for, uh, endometriosis. And I said, well, that's interesting. Why? How did you come up with that exact oral drop to to to do to test for that?

I said, Do you think that a different formulation skew a different delivery device might be better? Maybe, you know, suppository format or others. And, you know, it's always very interesting, um, you know, to hear why people, you know, are choosing, um, you know, one version over the next. Um, you know, one doctor had said, Well, Do your, do your oral gums, your pastels, or whatever you may call them, will they melt at 40 degrees?

And I said, probably. Um, I just, do you think at 40 degrees, uh, you need to prescribe a, a, a gummy? Or would it be better, uh, maybe our census oral drop, which has a nice fruity taste also, um, and isn't going to boil at 40 degrees? Yeah. Um, what do you think your choice should be? So You know, um, providing those options and making sure that it address, you know, uh, as many, and you have so many options to address.

Well, then that person can find within that group what helps them, uh, to, to, to, uh, uh, to realize some satisfaction.

[00:07:36] Kel: Yeah, that's it. And it's definitely an ongoing journey can be trial and error, but that's also part of the journey. I think as a medical cannabis patient is there's always that incremental room for growth.

And as the market grows and more products come to come to the market, we become more informed hopefully of what those products are. And we kind of go on that journey together. So

[00:07:59] Mike Sassano: yeah,

[00:07:59] Kel: it's interesting. Yeah.

[00:08:01] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Yeah. And that's right. And you know, You know, my 80 year old parents are going to, they're going to find a different way.

To find that product, you know, to somebody that likes the hip hop community and inside that hip hop community if let's say a brand like Cookies or Aeropro or or Shcherbinsky's or you know, Jack Herrera or whatever name Uh, you know, attracts inside that industry and gets people to talk within that community about what helped them.

Well, guess what, you know, we've done a better job reaching that community and trying to find something that helps the indication they're looking to cure. And just because it has a name or a different, uh, look, uh, you know, uh, and the key is we reached you. We found you something that helps you, you know, throughout your demographics.

[00:08:55] Kel: Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I think, um, you know, like you say, culture and word of mouth and, um, and also being able to see what other people in your community are experiencing when they try something. I think that that's, um, some communities, particularly minority communities, I think, tend to trust that a lot more than, say, the conventional doctor and what they're saying.

So,

[00:09:17] Mike Sassano: yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I mean, look, let's face it, um, you know, doctors see many patients in the day, they're not going to get it right. Every single time of what the newest or best cannabis is. As a matter of fact, I surely hope they don't know the latest and greatest trend in cannabis because then they're not spending enough time taking care of patients.

Um, you know, or they have like no life on the other end where they're just studying cannabis all night long. So I don't know what, what else to say. Um, you know, you know, usually within your peer group, you will find things that, that, that, you know, that can be recommended a lot quicker than you will within your doctor's group sometimes.

[00:10:04] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think because it's such an emerging new class of medicine as well, like you say, and, and GPs here, they're already under the pump. Everyone's gone through COVID. You know, a lot of them are still dealing with, with long COVID and burnout and, you know, it can't be expected of them to just kind of like, learn an entire new class of medicine just overnight and just, you know, add that into what they have to do anyway, every day in their prescribing.

So yeah, it's, it's quite a heavy burden on them. It'll be interesting, I think, to see how, how the prescribing industry evolves over time to meet those demands of it being a new class of medicine and how that will play out in terms of how medicine's taught. It'd be good to see. Modules on this included for undergrads, um, in nursing and yeah, and medicine.

[00:10:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I mean, like, I just, I just, uh, about a month ago I had COVID again. I don't know how many times I've had this COVID. Uh, but this time I lost my taste. So now I'm trying to work with, I'm reading all, all the research and trying to, um, take my nightly, uh, my nightly extract and add some terpenes that might be able to help and fix me.

Uh, get me back my taste because I definitely do like eating, um, when I travel at the nice restaurants all over the world. And so, you know, now I get to research, you know, COVID, long COVID, and see if I can create something to help myself, um, and maybe in the future help, uh, help other people. So, you know, When you make a lot of different products, you become absorbed, uh, with all the different indications.

Um, like you said earlier, I had written an article and endometriosis. I think we, we have five different products. We're, we're researching to see if they work better. Um, You know, um, different, uh, uh, for arthritis, we just recently settled on a high Beta Caryophellene terpene, uh, that seems to give people more relief, uh, both by research and by actual Prac trying it out.

So I get the actual benefit of looking at whatever ails me or somebody else and trying to figure out can we make something that addresses that? Uh, does it exist within the portfolio or do we need to make something more exclusive?

[00:12:26] Kel: Yeah, and it often comes from life experience, doesn't it?

Like you said, like getting COVID again and experiencing those awful side effects of not being able to enjoy your food, which is just the worst because I'm the same. I love my food. And that's just, it's horrible, isn't it? When it's a joy and it's taken away from you like that. Um. Yeah, so to come up with a solution to that problem, and just on the point of, um, the Beta Caryophellene - the BCP, in my own research, and also experience as a patient, I've also found that flowers that are high in BCP are great for anti inflammatories.

And I did a bit of research around why that is, um, because of the way that that particular terpene is like a major terpene, and it links to the EC2 receptors, um, in the gut. And women have a lot more nerves, um, there than men do. And that's one of the reasons why the pain could be so acute. Um, So, yeah, I've kind of geeked out over BCP a bit in terms of, um, of the effect that it can have as an anti inflammatory.

Yeah, it's powerful.

[00:13:35] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, I completely agree with you and you and I have been on a, a similar path for quite a while just so you know, um, trying to figure out, um, and being able to make that, you know, um, let's say understanding. Um, of the benefit of, of, um, of beta caryophyllene. So it's, uh, uh, I've become very excited about it over the last few years and even more so.

And now that people are validating it like yourself, I'm hearing that validation just makes me more positive, uh, that I, uh, that we've, we are on the right track, uh, with a, a very high beta karyophylline dominant. And so if it works, uh, for, uh, different anti inflammatory events, um, maybe that extra dose will bring, uh, uh, other indications to light.

Um, you know, and although, you know, we designed it. Let's say for, um, uh, both males and females, uh, but it was more designed around pain relief of the, of the aches, uh, in common, in, in different variations of arthritis. I do agree, um, you know, that the effect on the stomach, um, definitely will open up more indications and I think I'm going to have to footnote you now after this.

[00:14:48] Kel: I'm so glad we've connected on the BCP front because that's, yeah, I've been really excited about that. This past, um, six months since discovering it as a major terpene and what it can really do and then feeling the effects as well, first hand. Um, and then, yeah, I don't know how deep you want to get into terpenes, but yeah, I mean, I'd love to discuss full spectrum cannabis, which is, you know, the cornerstone of medical treatments.

And it is really important that we have. I guess a more nuanced conversation about it than, than just like Indica, Sativa, THC percentage. Um, I think it's easy to get caught up in that, but um, but yeah, I think things like limonene as well, which we know can really help. with anxiety and it can have that calming effect.

Um, when people are experiencing any kind of acute onset of pain, it naturally puts the body into fight or flight. And that combination of the B. C. P. And the limiting is also quite quite helpful. So I've been experimenting with You know, the complexities of like layering the terpenes and seeing how, how that works and how that affects my, my functionality throughout the day.

So yeah, it's interesting.

[00:16:07] Mike Sassano: Yeah, no, I, I, you know, I, uh, let's say I fell in love with limonene. I don't know if love is the right word, but I liked it so much. Um, you know, that we actually, one of the senses line, we went, we went heavy on limonene, um, you know, for that exact reason, by the way. And so, uh, the combination thereof then becomes really the science, you know, limiting plus beta karyophylline.

How do those two dominant terpenes work out together? Does it solve multiple indications, singular indications, or even more indications than we imagined? And so, when you find the one, like, I think in the future, You know, um, you know, Sativas and Indicas and all those words are, are, are nice general ways where you could talk simply to people and then as people develop a better understanding of their body and why they are, why some cannabis works and why others, um, you know, it differentiates into terpenes and minor cannabinoid strengths.

Um, and then you really get the precision of what truly helps you. Um, you know, and what you're actually, you may even become more in tune with your body as to what is bothering you,

[00:17:18] Kel: um,

[00:17:18] Mike Sassano: general terms like long COVID or endometriosis, um, maybe there's other things inside of there, right? Maybe there's stress or anxiety due to work.

Maybe there's, uh, uh, other, other feelings you're trying to solve. And I think then mapping those terpenes and mapping those results, um, and also minor cannabinoids, I'll keep kind of reiterating that one too. Those, those re those reactions and those things help you to find is part of your journey.

[00:17:46] Kel: Yeah, absolutely, and there's still so much to learn about the, um, you know, the other minor cannabinoids like CBG and how that can help with mood and hormone stabilization, and it's a really exciting time.

I guess we're really just at the start of it, aren't we, in terms of the science behind it revealing itself?

[00:18:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, the yesterday Um, one of the locals here, uh, uh, uh, gave me a, um, a try of, of something with CBG, uh, heavily dominant CBG. Um, and I felt multiple different, uh, relief points, uh, for it. One, one happened to be, um, You know, you never know the exact reasons, but let's say I also had a feeling that it was helping, um, you know, my stomach was a little bit on edge from traveling.

And so I found different feeling by being able to try it, um, as a, as a, as a majority dominant, not just a small percentage, uh, of a, of a, um, Of a vaporizer unit. I was able to kind of isolate that exact element and that feeling and I I I'm saddened because in the markets where we come from, you know, they can't we can't overweight CBG by itself But in the u.

s. We have it in in Australia. They have it and I think there's there's definitely a great effect to that product and it doesn't it's not necessarily a a psychoactive ingredient.

[00:19:21] Kel: Hmm, interesting. Yeah, um, I'll have to, um, I'll have to look into that a little bit more. I have, um, a CBD oil which includes CBG, um, for the, for, for like the daytime.

It's like a sativa dominant one. Um, and it's, it's very helpful. It is, it's, um, Yeah, you do notice the difference. It's it's true. And I think it does help you create more self awareness and mind. It really helps on the mindfulness front to be in tune with your body. To that extent, it kind of forces you to slow down, which I think is a good thing for a lot of us who were kind of running around in this, in this busy world.

Sometimes it's good to just take a breath and check in with the body. We spend so much time in our heads. I think it's um, it's a good practice.

[00:20:09] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think the world is, you know, I think there's different stages of our development in the world. And, um, you know, at one point, let's say in our development, if they said here, here's a pill, take this, um, you know, Uh, we were, we were all led to believe that that's the only way that we could go.

Um, the doctor told you to take this, you must take this, take this pill once a day for the rest of your life. And, you know, um, as, as generations went by, they started to look at that and question it. And Herb You know, herbal, uh, medicines that have been around for centuries before Big Pharma came around.

Um, you know, herbal, uh, technologies became more mainstream. And then people started looking more deeper. And I would say even the cannabis industry, uh, created this retrospective and introspective moments where we actually concentrate on our bodies and what exactly is inside that cannabis or what is inside that extract that is making me feel good.

Is it the right one? And how do I keep searching out that feeling? Um, you know, inside and looking at what you put in and how it reacts with your body, I think is where we're at and where we're going in the future. And it's less about, hey, pop this every day till till the end. It's more of a journey that you're on.

[00:21:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot more of, um, a holistic experience as well. Um, and, and genuinely healing experience because, um, you know, a lot of these pills that you say we've, we've been popping for the past century or so, they just mask pain. They, uh, you know, cannabis modulates it, and that's a big difference.

And, um, my partner, I'll be candid, um, she has endometriosis, and she's had a pretty bad flare up these past few days. But to see her overcome it from home without having to go to ED, without having to, you know, be on fentanyl and, and, and take medical cannabis and, and just take care of herself here is extraordinary.

Um, to think where she was three days ago to, to now she's, she's back on her feet and she's got color in her face again. I just don't think that kind of transformation and turnaround is really possible with, conventional medicine. But yet the stigma seems to remain, a significant challenge globally, including in Australia, and yeah, I'd love to get your take on what role you think education and transparent communication really play in reducing stigma, and how, how you think, We can all contribute to these efforts.

[00:22:45] Mike Sassano: Yeah, I think we should be allowed to have a bigger megaphone and be able to blast out these messaging like what you just said.

If you have something that's debilitating and Big Pharma is telling you I'm going to give you something that's more debilitating - are you really helping them, you know, is that really the path you want to be on?

And if nobody is allowed to counter, um, you know, that, Hey, look, you know, there's an alternative to you going fentanyl. There's an alternative to you going oxycodone. And if you don't have that megaphone to bring into that educational sphere, Big Pharma is out speaking to the world. Right? Yeah, they have more money to speak and to get that messaging out and they can prevent educational information or they can make it regulations for cannabis much harder.

But at the end of the day, if you read, if you watch what's going on in the US, let me tell you something that's going on. The HHS, the FDA has come out two times already this year with reports and said that cannabis is safer than all the alternatives in the market, helps at least and they use the word least 15 indications and they just did a eight step process, which is for the approval of any medical drug.

And they said the downside of cannabis both addictive wise and others, if you can say there is that, is the same and comparable with caffeine.

That is the largest health organisation in the world putting that in writing.

And on the other side you see the negative influences coming in trying to stop that material from reaching the public trying to suppress those documentations

[00:24:34] Kel: Yeah

[00:24:34] Mike Sassano: and trying to uh, not Uh, at least take cannabis from a schedule one to a schedule three, um, you know, which it seems with us in the community who know exactly or the help of cannabis, well, it seems silly to say that it has no medical benefit, not just silly.

It seems almost, uh, insane that That you can't make that determination at this point of, of, of, of decades of research and the government, HHS, FDA is saying the exact thing. And then the DEA is saying, no, no, no. We think it's dangerous. Well, what, what, from what, where's your evidence? Or when doctors tell me I don't have enough evidence, well, there's over 35, 000 research reports.

Not one of them, uh, not one of them indicating that cannabis isn't better than the alternatives in the market. As a matter of fact, every single one of them points to a better alternative, including all regulators in the world. So why isn't our education and words getting out? As you might imagine, this is a very passionate topic for me.

[00:25:39] Kel: Yes, yes, yeah, I guess as it should be, because as a leader in this space, you're facing a lot of resistance, and you've got to be passionate, and this isn't a place for complacency, is it, or apathy, it's um Yeah, it's a push. Like you say, they've got so much power, so much money, and they're so established and baked into the way we do healthcare.

Full stop. It's, it's um, yeah, it's a real seismic shift, isn't it?

[00:26:09] Mike Sassano: Yep, it is. It is. And if I, you know Being in this industry for almost 17 years now, you know, I've seen so many variations And and there's nobody who's going to tell me cannabis doesn't help it. I don't care who you are You know, I was with a regulator that was very staunch and I came in with all this these data And I said, I'm not going to regurgitate this to you.

I'm going to leave this on your desk. And you can imagine how silly it's going to sound when you tell me that there's no data to say there's medical benefit. And I dumped, uh, it was about one and a half feet tall of just documentation. I said, this is your, my present to you because you're never going to convince me of this.

[00:26:50] Kel: That's amazing. I'm not here. I'm

[00:26:51] Mike Sassano: sometimes I'm not here to convince you because your mind is closed But here's all the people that benefit if they can benefit it's up to you not to get in their way

[00:27:02] Kel: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Just don't get in people's ways. That's it. Nobody's trying to brainwash the public or make everyone take cannabis.

It's like, we just don't get in people's ways when they're trying to access it and trying to learn more about how that can help their, their health. And really, it's just shameful how Conventional medicine continues to fail the population. And really, I think that's the thing they're scared of really admitting is that, yeah, they're massive failures and the reasons why people are leaving them and moving over to alternative medicine.

People wouldn't even be exploring it if, if, um, pills worked, you know, so, yeah,

[00:27:44] Mike Sassano: well, I call it out very Very strong, you know, and it won't matter, you know, if they're, uh, what their regulatory position is, um, you know, it's just clear, uh, you have two ways you can look at this, you know, either somehow, um, uh, somehow you have some, uh, belief not founded in medicine or big pharma's got you twisted.

It's one of two reasons why you don't, uh, uh, look at the safety standards of, of cannabis and ask yourself, for whatever reason it is that you are not allowing this to happen, so be it. It's your choice. inside your brain. On the other side, if somebody can benefit, right, why stand in their way if you believe that there is a benefit to it?

You don't have to, you don't have to violate whatever ideas are in your brain by just staying off the negative. You don't have to be a promoter, but you can't be the negative side of this equation and get some respect from me.

[00:28:47] Kel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What motivates you to keep advocating for change in this space, Mike?

Like you said, you've been here for 17 years, um, pushing for change. Uh, what, what motivates you?

[00:29:03] Mike Sassano: I mean, uh, You have to see the other end of what I see, you know, and I get messages online I get messages sent for years You know, some of them, you know, some of them are, you know, one side or the other But when you get positive messages in the industry of people that are helped and can you Mike, you know Can you work on as an example, we were talking other eyes Um, you know something with beta caryophyllene, something with limonene.

Can you work on something with this? You know, I have this. Can you take a look into Long COVID. Can you take into Look into this. Is there something you would recommend? And many of the times i'm able to recommend something that's in the market, right? Like this looks like it might be helpful. Let me know how it goes Um, you know And, you know, when I came over to the global markets, you know, I just kept making more and more products because I just couldn't imagine, um, you know, another product that couldn't help somebody like they need more limonene.

They need more Barry to carry awfully. They need more. Um, you know, whatever it is, um, they need another variation. They need another delivery device Yeah,

[00:30:18] Kel: you know

[00:30:18] Mike Sassano: this delivery device doesn't isn't isn't going to get them where where this group needs And the more I kept going the more I kept making More products and more Uh, more variations and I couldn't stop at some point like there had the point came where okay, I was looking at the rosins and the resins and I was saying to myself, what's after this?

And then I said, I said, More rosins and more resins, more strains. So then I couldn't stop there, so I was like, Okay, we can't come out with too many of these, So let's, let's just come out with three strains of rosin and three different strains of resins, you know? And then it became a pheno hunt of strains.

And then I said, Okay, we've done that. So now 2025 and 2026, or sorry, 2026, what's the new lineup for the phenos? I was just sent that out the other day. I was like, so what's our new line of phenos? So now I need to have more phenos for 26. And so it's kind of this never ending processes. It's not that you're trying to make, I don't know how to say this right, but okay.

It's not like, You know, this is the best it's this is the this is the best variety. I can find you. This is the best flower. I could find you with the best technique to make the Ross and I can't say this one is the best, but I did the best I can to find the, you know, great strains and I did the right processing and I gave you three versions.

Did you like those three versions? Did you not? Did you find one that worked for you inside of that? Did you not? Okay, great. I have three more versions coming for you that I think you might like to try. And so, you know, it becomes kind of this never ending, uh, quest to reach every demographic with every kind of product that can be formed in the best and most ethical manner you can make it in.

And at some degree it's, it's all has to do with choice of flower and choice of technology. You know, process. And if you think about it like that, then it's almost infinite, right? Cause flower strains change. People's desires change. Uh, technology keeps getting better for, from the extracted side as an example.

Um, you know. What we made 15 years ago, I can tell you, um, it was kind of like you were, you know, extracts are made kind of like you made brownies at home. You would warm up the product in some fatty, uh, uh, solution, um, an oil or some fatty solution. Then you would centrifuge it and you would, you know, put that into, into your whatever, gummy or, or vape or whatever, you know, RSO was a very early form product, you know, and it was a very crude extraction process. So basic, but helped so many, right? And then as time went on, that technology got better and better and better. Um, you know, I remember years ago. These CO2 guys came from the perfume industry.

They had never extracted any cannabis before in their life. But the theory was sound. And then suddenly we're all CO2 extracting one day. One day it was, they were making perfumes. The next day they were making cannabis. Well, that technology also changed. And changed dramatically. And then, you know, ethanol came in.

And then suddenly we were saying, Well, isn't this hydrocarbon better? Is it, you know? Then we would roll back to the natural version of rosin extraction and say, No, that's better. Or, is there a place for all of this? Does this appeal to this person? Does that appeal? And once you realise that it all has an appeal to a different person, then you find out that there's actually a place for everything in there.

And then you can't stop and then it becomes addictive to make more and more products as best as you can because more and more people are being helped and it's almost, you almost can't get off that treadmill once you're on it.

[00:34:41] Kel: Yeah, yeah, it's a real, um, equity quest that you seem to be on there, Mike.

Like, we really value equity and unity on the, on the podcast and the idea that everyone's an individual and they need different things and whilst there might be similarities and, and, and generalities, there's always going to be things that just work for you that don't work for the next person.

And, even if you have the same condition and yeah, I can see how it can just like, you know expand out the way it does for you. It's just mushrooms into more and more variants. Um, but you know, everyone's got different needs really

[00:35:17] Mike Sassano: yeah, it's it's almost you know, I can't find my way off the treadmill to be honest with you Um, now even with this, with this call, I have to tell you, I'm going to, I'm relooking, you know, I'm thinking to myself, relooking at, at, uh, at these, at these, uh, uh, how we're doing the endometriosis, uh, choice and saying, look, I think we need to try and get this off of the shelf and get this into the market.

There's just too many people, um, you know, that are suffering over this. And then now they're being swayed to fentanyl. Which is like hearing that just blows my mind. Like I need to be, I need to help. I can't sit around on the sidelines after hearing that.

[00:35:57] Kel: Thanks, Mike. I feel like I've actually done something useful by sharing that.

I'm really, I'm really glad that we've connected today. I really am. I'm really grateful for your time and that I got to share that with someone who's actually willing to listen and take some action. Um, with that, that's in a position to do so, so yeah, I really think that could really help.

[00:36:20] Mike Sassano: Yeah, this is uh, but this is exactly what, what ends up happening with me.

I, I just can't sit on the sidelines.

[00:36:27] Kel: Yeah. It's just

[00:36:28] Mike Sassano: not gonna happen.

[00:36:29] Kel: Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:29] Mike Sassano: Whether I get it right or I at least try and keep improving and get it right the next time or get it right the next time, I'll keep going, you know, because, uh, it's important. And so I, you know, you know, we'll just, we, we just got to keep going.

And sometimes, you know, like my production teams, they're, they say, look, you know, Mike, you know, we're at 138 extracted stabilized EU GMP products, you know, isn't that enough. And I say, it'll be enough once I hear enough feedback. You know, and we're reaching all the demographics that need to be reached.

And like with the marketing teams, I said, look, you know, SOMAI is a pharmaceutical brand, it will remain for the very strict countries. Uh, very strict pharmaceutical brand, but you need to also reach, you know, different demographics with different branding because it's not like making, uh, you know, great product or growing great product is strictly for, uh, uh, Merck and Pfizer.

You know, it's for, it's for, you know, hip hop or for whatever, whatever, uh, demographic you're in. And so if you're not reaching the public with your, with your messaging, well, maybe you need to reach out with a different branding, you know, and explain to the people why this is useful for whatever it is and whatever indication they're at.

And don't stop ever. Until your message gets out there and those people are cured. So no production team. I'm not ready to stop making products yet Sorry, I haven't gotten there yet. I don't have enough data.

[00:38:05] Kel: I Love that. I love that I mean like you said Mike a lot of people are suffering you wouldn't even have to be thinking about this if there wasn't so Many sadly demographics that are in pain whether it's chronic pain cancer pain so many people Um, uh, suffering and in pain, and we've got to ask ourselves why, but also when are we going to actually really do something to truly transform the healthcare system?

And that's where I'd love to kind of, um, end the conversation. Um, on your vision for the future and if you could envisage like an ideal health care system where medical cannabis is fully accepted, integrated, where people are getting the right products for their pain and conditions, um, what do you think that would look like and realistically how far away do you reckon we are from achieving it?

[00:38:56] Mike Sassano: Yeah, it's a complicated question, right? Um, You know, I see so many variations of, uh, regulatory medicines, and so, and I see the pluses and minuses of them all. Like, let me give you an example of what I mean by what I'm saying. In the U. S. market, pretty much anything goes, any drug can be advertised, and anything can be prescribed almost immediately.

But now you have a culture that's addicted to pills. Um, you know, they're creating chronic diseases because, uh, they're a cheat. They're just giving you a pill for everything. And suddenly you have almost the use at a, at a children's age. They're eight to 12 percent use of very serious pains, uh, because, you know, they're the ADHD and other things are overly prescribed and overly diagnosed.

So there's a very extreme market. You know, that's, you know, taking a lot of the pills. Is that freedom very positive? I would say, look, it's impossible to dissect medical freedom. Um, but there should come with medical education. So I, I tend to, to be on the side that you should have medical freedom. But.

There needs to be a robust educational network and it cannot come from the pharmaceuticals and we cannot snuff out education from proper ways of getting out there because people are going to get the word on Reddit or the internet. And so, if we become trusted sources, you know, to educate, uh, not the negative sources online trying to de educate and reprogram people to only stick to the old fashioned view of how medicine has to be prescribed and diagnosed, um, Then I believe the metamorphosis, uh, can be complete where there's a freedom of medicine but an education on the other side.

And I'll give you an example. I take some time every year just to, uh, clean my system. Um, not just for you know, cleaning from whatever eating or drinking or whatever, you know, uh things, you know I'm doing on a regular basis, but to actually do a little bit of a cannabis cleaning myself also now It's not the most enjoyable thing I do.

Um, you know, just like you know, okay I'm not going to eat meat this month or i'm not going to Um drink alcohol this month or whatever it is. You're trying to clean from um, it's never going to be a perfectly enjoyable experience um, however What it keeps is, is my, my, uh, my dosaging and how much I take, uh, keeps it at a lower amount than if I keep increasing and gaining a tolerance over it.

So it keeps, um, it keeps my dosaging in a, in a nice zone over the course of. whatever decades I've been doing it, um, and at least edibles now for the last eight years, uh, my dosage will go up and then after the cleaning, I could bring it back down. Now, you know, that's a freedom, uh, that, that I enjoy. And when I travel from country to country, sometimes I don't have that freedom and I'm forced to not take, uh, the cannabis, uh, when I would like to take it.

So I was in Japan and there was no cannabis there. Well, I can say that was a forced cleaning that was not so enjoyable for me. so, you know, maybe I'm not gonna, even though I love Tokyo, I love Japan, I love the culture, I love the, I love everything about Japan. I like skiing in Japan. But you know what?

I don't think I'm going to be going back to Japan if I can't pursue Uh, you know, the product that makes me, uh, enjoy my sleep, um, you know, gives me a good calm. So maybe I won't, uh, be there, as much as I love that country. Maybe, you know, uh, maybe that's the right approach. You know, maybe people need to know that.

We're, we're just not going to tolerate no, uh, freedom, uh, to have your medicine if it's considered safe and we can get a good educational program out there. And I should be allowed to talk more to people. I should not be stifled by regulators. I don't have any bad feelings for people that I want to addict them to oxycodones or fentanyls or things that are killing people.

I have no, no feelings for that, but I should have a bigger voice than them. I should be allowed to speak and educate everywhere I can, uh, as to the goodness, uh, and pe that people are receiving from cannabis and, and the, the, the nature of how to use cannabis right. You know, my voice should be bigger than Big Pharma's.

You know, all of our voices should be. And we should overwhelm the airwaves with it.

[00:43:38] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I think that's, that's the way, isn't it? It's going to take a collective effort and a strength in numbers, definitely.

[00:43:48] Mike Sassano: Yeah, if we just, look, we all You know, I try to tell people there's no competitors in this industry.

We're all partners and we're all friends in the same technique. Now, of course, not everybody plays in the same level playing field, um, as, as I would like them to. Um, but at the end of the day, we're all in one boat. And guess what? There's Big Pharma got that their thumb on the scale. There's no reason, there's no rational reason I can think of that in the United States, we're a schedule one drug, which means the same as heroin.

You know, you can't tell me cannabis is the same as heroin. I don't care what crazy town you come from, there's no way that any of your experience or your knowledge is going to make sense to me to tell me that cannabis is the same as heroin. That's just crazy. And anybody who repeats that sounds crazy to me.

[00:44:46] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. Even

[00:44:47] Mike Sassano: my 80 year old parents who are as conservative as they come, you know, understand cannabis and take cannabis, you know, and they're like come from a whole nother world of generations, you know?

[00:44:59] Kel: Yeah. Yeah. My Nana is 90. Um, and she's been exploring it. She's been exploring CBD, um. Yeah, but then that's a whole nother realm, isn't it?

Because she's quite tech savvy for her age, for 90 she's got a mobile phone, but the people in her care home don't have access to the internet the same way, and they're, you know, it's like, how do we make sure that they get access too? Because not everyone does have the internet. So yeah, that's a whole nother conversation for another day, but yeah.

[00:45:30] Mike Sassano: Send me over to their home. I'm going to go over there and do a do an educational seminar for them. I'm sure that that's what I would like to do. I'm sure that yeah. Let me let me carry the internet voice in the fashion that they know how to. And I will go out there personally myself and do this for them.

Because you know that all my parents friends have found some dosage that makes sense for them. Whether it's the high CBD or a very, very, very, very light. THC CBD dose, you know, um, because, you know, as they're older, you got to, they're more sensitive to these. And so they need to find something that makes sense for them because if they can enjoy their life a little bit better and decrease the big pharma pills that they're being forced to take 12, 15, 20 a day.

Well, great. Here, add another one and tell me if you feel a little better.

[00:46:20] Kel: Exactly. Exactly. They deserve to have a better quality of life as well, you know?

[00:46:26] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Especially after living 90 years, right?

[00:46:30] Kel: Yes! It's not about that.

[00:46:32] Mike Sassano: What? They, they, they, they've been, they've, they, they were brainwashed for so damn long that cannabis was bad, right?

That it took years of me being in the business for my parents to warm up with it and to try it. Uh, you know, and to find what it meant for them, they did it on their own, not because I told them to, but they did it on their own to say, what is this? You know, our doctor gives us all these pills. What is this?

What is it? Tell me about CBD. And they were alert. They were online learning themselves. I think this sounds right for me. I want to try it.

[00:47:07] Kel: Yeah. Yeah, that's so beautiful. It's, it's so, yeah, and how have you seen a transformation in them since they've started doing that? Have you noticed a shift?

[00:47:17] Mike Sassano: I think they're all quite happy.

I mean, Yeah. We all see the transformation for ourselves. Right. It doesn't, just because you got older doesn't mean you can't benefit. The only thing that, that changed is the mentality, right? The educational level. So in their mind, they had to surcome to an age that told them, by the way, when they were growing up, they said, smoking is good.

Smoking cigarettes is great for you. And people smoked everywhere. There were no non smoking zones. It was smoke as much as you can because it's going to help your health. Can you imagine that's the era they came from?

[00:47:54] Kel: Yeah, yeah, well, it was like cool and sexy to be like, yeah, a young woman smoking like,

[00:48:00] Mike Sassano: yeah,

[00:48:02] Kel: crazy.

But

[00:48:02] Mike Sassano: it was, but it was, it was even more, it was a benefit to your health. Can you imagine? It's not just It's not just sexy, you know. You're gonna get a husband if you smoke this. It was actually also healthy.

[00:48:17] Kel: It's gonna help your lungs, yeah. Oh my god. It's unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, you watch shows like Mad Men and you see like the advertising behind it, you know, where they do the whole It's Toasted campaign.

I think it's for Marlborough and just, yeah, just the response they got from that was like yeah, everyone's like, oh wow, yeah, it's toasted.

[00:48:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah,

[00:48:40] Kel: well,

[00:48:40] Mike Sassano: I mean, you know, they're They can remember like even all the times, you know, and even in our generations like like they told us Uh, okay, you know stop using paper bags um use plastic bags because the paper bags are gonna Are gonna kill the environment by killing all the trees.

Well then they realized plastic bags weren't so good. So they said, okay, stop using plastic bags, go this way. If we followed every genera every If we followed the medical trends over the last hundred years, you would be in shock. Like you would, you would stop following, you know, them and you would be on your own path and probably you would pick a path of cannabis, um, you know, before you tried a million other drugs, you know, even recently I had hurt my neck and it was, you know, and I went to the doctors and they said, here's a prescription of oxycodone is going to make you feel great and I looked at him and I go, okay.

Do you know what this stuff does? Like, you know, well, don't worry. We're not going to give you another prescription, so you're not going to get addicted to it. And I saw, what does that mean? Like, you know, give me a break. Come on.

[00:49:50] Kel: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's just no aftercare. There's no considering the long term effects.

Just off you go, get some pills.

[00:50:00] Mike Sassano: Yep,

[00:50:01] Kel: yep.

[00:50:02] Mike Sassano: See you in a few months, let me know how it goes and if you need a refill, I'll give you a refill. And guess what? If you give me a bunch of Oxycodone and you give me a refill and my personality is such that I like that and I can keep using that well, I may never stop, just so you know.

It's just very possible,

[00:50:23] Kel: you

[00:50:24] Mike Sassano: know?

[00:50:24] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. Such a dangerous path that people can end up going down through no fault of their own. Just a careless system, really, that's not evolved. And yeah, we're definitely due a revolution, that's for sure.

[00:50:39] Mike Sassano: Yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, but we'll get there.

We've come such great strides and as, as down as like, you know, when I'm in every, every local area that I go to, cause I travel a lot, educating doctors and pharmacists, every single. Every locality says, Oh, I wish we could get better.

I wish they, and when I come to Australia, I go, guys you need to realise how great you really got it. Let me tell you some other countries and some horror stories, you know, like Ireland, you know, Uh, you know, they, they're just starting to realize that GPs can prescribe and it's not just for multiple sclerosis and cancer three and epilepsy, you know, there's other indications like pain and different categories of pain, you know, but they, they, they, they couldn't get it before they had to go to the illicit market, which is fine.

At least they're getting it somewhere, but why can't they or spain? You could walk into any social club there and get it from the illicit market Product, it's not uh, you know from the medical markets, but you can't get medical products still this year It'll change but imagine that like, you know, you're like all why would the medical?

Department. Why can you get it at any social club, but you can't get it at a medical club. I mean, to some degree, I think that's, that's actually quite good, but you know, still, it's not like my 80 year old parents are going to walk into a, a medical and a social club, you know, their, their product, you know, um, they do like their bud tenders now in the United States.

So they don't talk to their doctor anymore. They like they have their local bud tenders. They like, so I'm like, okay, if you like them, I'm glad they're helping you. Yeah. Yeah. Honey, we don't need your advice. We got our local bud tender. She's really, she's really smart. And I'm like, great. I'm glad you found somebody you like.

[00:52:29] Kel: Yeah. If it's enriching their life, then why not? Oh Mike, I've really enjoyed our conversation today. I'm really grateful for your time. I'm, really looking forward to sharing it with our audience and um, you've given me a lot of food for thought So thank you so much I'm glad we connected.

[00:52:43] Mike Sassano: Yeah. Thanks for enjoying it and letting me spread the word and uh having your interest come visit us come tour with us over to our facility If you make it to Lisbon, if I'm in one of your cities, me.

let's meet one of these days.

[00:52:55] Kel: That sounds good Thanks so much. Mike. I hope you have a good rest of your trip and definitely be in touch.

See you soon. Mike. Take care.

wraps up today's conversation with Mike Sassano, CEO of We've explored a lot today, including the global impacts of SOMAI and their growth, their commitment to innovating within the space, and receiving feedback and doing something with that, and taking actions to make patients lives better, and the ethical considerations that come with the medical industry.

These are just a few topics that we'll continue to unpack on the podcast. And if you enjoyed today's discussion, like, subscribe

until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound.

Get full access to Phoenix Sound by Kel Myers at phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe