SHOW NOTES:

Watch 'In Plain Sight' documentary demo story here

Support funding for 'In Plain Sight' here

Learn more about United In Compassion here

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Kel: I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. Today I'm joined by Lucy Haslam, retired nurse, health advocate, and co-founder of United in Compassion, the driving force behind medical cannabis reform in Australia.

Lucy's journey is one of incredible determination, transforming personal loss into a movement that continues to change and sustain lives.

But a decade on, significant challenges still remain in making this new class of medicine truly accessible to those who need it. So now, Lucy is leading the way to launch Australia's first public education campaign on medical cannabis through the documentary In Plain Sight. The film will explore the history, science, and politics of medical cannabis whilst exposing the barriers that still exist, from stigma to misinformation and flawed policies.

Today we dive into Lucy's journey, the fight for change, and why this documentary is so urgent. Stay with us.

You're joining us as I speak with Lucy about the incredible impact of her work and the change she's helped spark. Let's jump in.

The change that you've helped spark is really remarkable. And I guess what began as a deeply personal journey has blossomed into now a national movement that continues to make such a meaningful impact on countless lives across the country.

And I think it's one thing to face. Um, any kind of adversity but it's another to transform that Into something to help change other people's lives for the better and I think that's nothing short of a miracle to be honest and I just wanted to give you your flowers to be honest to start with because I did, because I just think it's really important that we remember the people that have paved the way.

And yeah, I was, I'm just so, yeah, awestruck by everything that you do and continue to do. So, I'd love it if we could start with maybe you sharing with us how your personal experience led to founding United in Compassion.

[00:01:59] Lucy: Okay, well thanks Kel for saying all that you've actually helped me just in hearing that to remember why I did this in the first place because I kind of lose sight, I suppose it's been a decade now and sometimes you lose sight and you become a bit frustrated and disillusioned, so thanks for saying that. So I guess my personal journey I never expected to be doing what I'm doing. But adversity, you know, sort of puts you in places where you have to change tack, I suppose. So for us it started in 2010 when our youngest son Dan was diagnosed with stage 4 bowel cancer. Dan was he was just 20 at the time and very much a kid.

He was a beautiful person. He was going to uni. He was living the dream, excited about life, one of those people that wanted to do everything. He, you know, he was musical, he was adventurous, he wanted to travel, he just wanted, he was sporty, he just, he just loved life. And so when he was diagnosed, really out of the blue on the 5th of February in 2010.

Our lives changed his certainly did, but our whole family's lives changed. And you don't expect that you're going to suddenly be facing a terminal illness in your youngest child when they've got You were thinking that they had so much to be looking forward to. So Dan obviously started on really rigorous cancer treatment immediately.

He had five years of continuous chemotherapy. He had lots of major surgeries including bowel resections, liver resections. His body was basically riddled with cancer and it was always going to be a fight. But you keep hope front and center when that's your child and you try not to let yourself go down those pathways of thinking that you've got to be preparing for the end.

But I think instinctively I knew that was, that was there based on my background in nursing. I certainly wasn't expecting to become a medicinal cannabis advocate, but by 2014 Dan was in such a bad way. Basically every side effect that you could have from chemotherapy he had, and then some, despite the doctors telling us that, you know, chemotherapy is so much more manageable these days, you know, don't expect that you'll get all these symptoms.

Well, I think Dan pretty well got every one of them. And. By 2014, he really, he had no quality of life whatsoever, he, he literally was he was just hanging on for dear life. He was not able to maintain an appetite or his weight, he was extremely anxious, very worried about what was coming next, and very worried about us, and all of that.

And, his, his he made good friends with another person in Tamworth who had bowel cancer. He was actually a local businessman and that businessman eventually said to Dan that he thought he should try cannabis because during his cancer journey it had helped him a lot and Dan said no, not going to do it.

Mum and Dad won't ever agree. You know, at our, for our background, mine was in nursing and my husband's was in policing and most of his career had been in the drug squad. So we were at that time very anti cannabis, I've got to say. very, very much the way we found the rest of the community. But luckily for me, his friend contacted me and said, Look, Lucy, Dan said no to this, but I want to, I want to put it by you.

Would you be interested in me giving you some cannabis for Dan to try? And I said without hesitation, absolutely, yes, please, please bring it round. And we then had to convince Dan that he needed to use cannabis just at least to give it a try. And I will never forget the day that he tried it when he had his next round of chemotherapy which was fortnightly at that stage.

My husband rolled in the joint and Dan had a couple of puffs on that joint at a time when he was normally throwing up, the colour came back into his face, and he asked for something to eat. And that was just so incredibly different to what we had been going through for years. And it, it really did give us some hope that he would get some quality of life back.

He began to eat better, he stopped vomiting, he began to sleep better.

He eventually wanted to start to make the oil because we started to do some exploration on the internet and saw that many people were using it in oil form to try and treat their cancer, so he did that making his own oil from cannabis that I would buy.

And, you know, things like his mouth ulcers cleared up which, you know, it doesn't sound like a big thing, but when you've got a mouth full of cavernous mouth ulcers that rarely heal between between rounds of chemotherapy, you know, that's a, that's a big deal. And,

[00:07:11] Kel: yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:13] Lucy: But, you know, this was very challenging for us because this challenged everything I, I really thought or believed or had been taught about medical cannabis.

And so I just, I just thought I've just got to know more. I've got to, I've got to understand why this is working. And at that time, there'd been a recent Senate inquiry in New South Wales. The year before there'd been a Senate inquiry and a couple of my local politicians had been involved on that Senate inquiry.

And I reached out to them, one of whom was been our solicitor and they came and saw me and they said, look, we, we unanimously recommended that cannabis be reintroduced, but the health minister had thrown cold water on it and said kind of basically over her dead body. And so, you know, another opportunity had been missed.

And I reached out to people like Alex Wodak, who was an addiction specialist with St. Vincent's Hospital and said, Look, my son's using cannabis now. Is he going to come to any harm? You know, what should I do? We, we, we're sort of searching the internet trying to find answers and he was wonderful. He contacted me and he said, look, Lucy, firstly, he won't come to any harm.

I mean, how stupid, what a silly question. Dan was dying anyway. But that's kind of where my head was at. I just didn't want him to come to any harm from using this. And he said, look, you know, I've been banging on about cannabis for so long now, you know, the politicians just think I'm an idiot. But you know, maybe they'll listen to you as a mother.

And, and I just thought, well, this is the right thing to do. And it just began from there, I guess. I didn't make a big decision. I'm going to run a. medical cannabis campaign or anything like that. I just wanted to help my son. So it was, it was pretty clear and simple. And, you know, the best thing that I thought that I could really do because I found it was so challenging personally, I thought, well, people are either going to love us or they're going to loath us, loath us.

And It was really hard, it was important to me that, that people knew what we were doing and why we were doing it, and so I decided to go public about it, and we lived in a conservative country community in Tamworth in New South Wales, and I went to my local members and I told them, like the state and federal member.

They were kind of shocked and horrified at first, you know, and I went to the local newspaper and spoke to the editor and told him what I wanted to do and, and he said, look, I will support you any way I can. A lot of people knew us in the town, they knew the kind of people that we were, they knew Dan, he'd been the school captain at one of the largest high schools there.

And so, you know, I, I thought it was risky, but I thought I just wanted to, I wanted people to know that we were doing what we were doing for the reasons we were doing it and that perhaps we all needed to think twice about medicinal cannabis. And I guess just luckily for us, they they supported us.

overwhelmingly. It was quite incredible to be part of it. The local community ran a campaign called Doing It For Dan. They, they made it very public and they really supported us. Local councillors supported us. The local police supported us. And it took away a lot of that fear because we really were expecting a knock on the door and instead of getting that knock on the door from, from police to, you know, to charge us, we were actually getting gifts dropped on our door of cannabis plants or cannabis material for dance. So it was pretty it was pretty inspiring to see the humanity in people.

[00:11:00] Kel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can only imagine just how beautiful that would have been to see everyone rallying around you and, you know, trusting that you guys are upstanding citizens, like you said, you've got a background in nursing, your husband's within the police, Yeah, I'm sure that you really helped to shift their perspectives on it.

[00:11:21] Lucy: Yeah, well look, we used to see other cancer patients up in the chemotherapy suite and cancer patients talk to each other and then you'd hear other people saying that they were using it and you think, why do these people have to feel shame for trying to relieve? Really severe symptoms, you know, they're already battling for their lives and we're making them feel ashamed and there was, you know, Dan had just so much sympathy for the other cancer patients.

I think that's what really inspired him to kind of go public about it as well because, you know, he didn't want to be known as the cancer boy. He didn't want to be known even as the cannabis boy. He was quite, you know, he was, he wanted to be quite private about it, but he just said to me, 'Mum, we've got to help these people', you know saw it more about helping the others that for me, it was helping him, but he wanted to help everybody else.

And I guess that's what inspired United in Compassion. And, you know, I just, I think that was reflective of the kind of person that Dan was.

[00:12:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And the ripple effect that he continues to create, you know?

[00:12:35] Lucy: Well, I hope so. I do think that, you know, we're a decade on now. It'll be 12, it'll be 10 years since Dan passed away next month.

And a lot of people have come into the medicinal cannabis sector who don't know the history. And that's not their fault. I mean, it's a whole new industry, but I think the fact that it was a patient led movement, which seems to really reflect what's happened globally. Any country where it's been adopted, it's been because patients have pushed for it.

And I think there's a lot of shame in that. Why have patients had to push for this, you know? The science has really been smothered in a lot of hysteria and misinformation over, over decades, over at least 80 years, you know, since the war on drugs began. And, you know, that's what's holding cannabis back in Australia now, still, is, is the stigma.

Because people are uninformed, you know. I think if everyone in Australia was to understand more deeply about cannabis, there would be a far greater acceptance of it as a medicine.

[00:13:48] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. There is so much stigma, just reflecting on what you've just shared, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story, Lucy, and I know it mustn't be easy to, to, to share that, and it's just, it's A friend used the word brutal which is like when something's really brutal but it's beautiful too and that's kind of how this feels and what you've created it's it's an incredible loss and also an incredible transformation for you to Transform all of that into something like United in Compassion and, and like you said, you weren't ever planning on going down this route of advocating for cannabis, it's just where life has taking you and United in Compassion has just been a driving force for change in Australia.

I've been reading as much press as I can to try and like, learn about the history and, Put things in more of a context than just what's happening today. And, to see the advocating work that you do to ensure patient access and to help shape legislative change and really pave the way for progress

 The way that you bring people together healthcare professionals, policy makers. to create a more compassionate approach to healthcare. I think he's just incredible. And I know there's a lot of work to do, but I'd love to just take a minute to reflect on what you have accomplished and what's your proudest achievement so far.

[00:15:09] Lucy: Oh gosh, Kel look there, there have been, this has been a roller coaster. I've got to say, I mean, as many highs as they've been in terms of achievements, there've been lows as well. And I, I don't know if I'm a glass half empty or a glass half full. And I never know from, from week to week. It's like, you know, like these massive massive dips and, and, and rises.

I think I used to be very proud when the law changed. But that didn't last for very long because then I saw the politics, I, I was politically naive at the beginning and, and to be honest, I was, I was hoodwinked by the politics of it.

So, I think initially I was proud that the law changed and, and that it was named in Dan's honour, but then I was kind of disgusted when we actually saw the, the regulation and the legislation, which you know, it wasn't even available at the time that it passed.

So, there was highs and lows there. I think the symposiums have been something that I take great pride in. We're just working on the next one now. And, you know, the first one that I had in Tamworth in 2014, before cannabis was legalised it was so different.

I, I remember that I think the audience was about 95 percent vegetarian and most of them, you know, were what, what people would term loosely hippies and, and that kind of you know, and, and. All credit to them, they knew a lot more about cannabis than we ever did. So, and you know, and I'll, and police were concerned that there would be riots and demonstrations and all that.

Well that never happened. But the events have just grown and grown and the international community have been incredible to me I've got to say.

You know, I've got some of the best global speakers on medicinal cannabis and they do so willingly, you know, they, what do you need Lucy? How can we help?

You know, is usually the attitude from most of them. And that, that extends to today.

I think forming the Australian Medicinal Cannabis Association with Teresa Nicoletti has been a real highlight because, you know, I understood that I was just one person and, you know, I might have skills in a particular area, but I'm certainly don't, I don't have the legal gravitas or I don't have the, even the administrative skills or the scientific skills or any of those kind of, you know, additional skills because there's so much involved in, in the medicinal cannabis community.

So basically AMCA was formed to be the I guess the extension of, of UIC.

I know that when UIC sort of folds down and, and it will, and in the not too distant future, because, you know, I can't keep doing this for too long. 10 years has taken a lot of my life and I want to retire with my husband, but I know that, I know that it will continue to work.

Sorry.

[00:18:05] Kel: I think you've earned that Lucy.

[00:18:09] Lucy: I guess, I guess AMCA was my exit strategy and I feel really Happy and excited by AMCA. We've got a beautiful community there that's, you know, has over 500 members now. They're all people that are really deeply committed to medicinal cannabis. And so I know that, you know, I give the movement longevity.

So when I step away, it will continue, you know, and we've done things through and for like setting up a compassionate access scheme for patients, which was always something I wanted to do, but couldn't do alone. You know, we went to the government to ask for help, the current government. They'd said in opposition that this was what was needed, they were critical of the, the previous government.

We need a compassionate access scheme. When they got into government, I went straight to the health minister and said, okay, when you're in opposition, you said this, we need a compassionate access scheme. We've worked out how we can do it, but we need your help. And, you know, to get told, no, sorry, we don't do that in government, you know but we've done it anyway.

So with any progress that we've made, I feel like we've made despite help from government. So it really has been a struggle to, to make any headway in the medicinal cannabis space. And I think that's shameful, but I think people don't that are in those high decision making positions, they don't realise what.

the value of medicinal cannabis is to Australian patients now and what it can be to Australia generally in terms of an industry and, you know, future tax dollars and you know, future benefits to the healthcare system and the insurance, health insurance system. They, they don't realise what a diamond they've got sitting there.

They're too busy, you know, pouring rubbish on it or, you know disdain or, you know, one of my biggest problems with this symposium has been finding somebody to open it. You know, because people don't want to be associated with it still. Why? A decade later, when we've got millions of patients that are accessing it, why are we still having this problem?

You know? So, education, the need for education is going to be ongoing but first you've got to break down that stigma. And, and that's tough.

[00:20:30] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, there's the ripple effects of the work you do and it's led to things like AMCA and I had a chat with Eric, Eric Chan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was giving you your flowers on, on the podcast and say none of this would be possible without you. So to see someone like him, You know, who's kind of up and coming energetic. Like you said, it's like it takes so many different people. It really takes like a whole village to, to, to manage something as complex as this.

And, you know, there is some hope, I think in, in, you know, the younger generation. I sound old saying that. Yeah,

[00:21:05] Lucy: no,

I understand completely what you're saying. And I think it's, I find it a little frustrating. Some are just coming, waltzing in and thinking, Oh, right. Okay. I'm an entrepreneur and I'm going to make a lot of money here, but they don't understand or appreciate the fight that's gone to get us to this point.

And yeah. But, but not only that, but the fact that this is really about patients, it's about human beings and, and how well they are and how they're dealing with illness or injury. And that some of them don't even see that. They, they just see the dollar signs and that's kind of one of the low points. I suppose of the, of the decade of the journey has been seeing how that has become.

So at first I think it was a little insidious, but now it's glaring, it's like this glaring red flag where patients aren't given proper quality of care because they're seen as a customer rather than as a patient and it's making a sale rather than writing a prescription. You know? So that's the sad reality.

You know, to be honest, that's what makes me think, Oh, I can't do this anymore. I need to leave it to the Eric Chans of the world and to the young people who, who do actually have a heart and still can see through all that shine to what's really at the heart of the problem. And that's patient.

[00:22:38] Kel: Yeah, exactly.

And I'd love to just talk about the documentary In Plain Sight and the need for a professional public education campaign in Australia which we don't currently have. Something that's centralised. Something that's not brand focused. You know what I mean? Sorry, I shouldn't like specify brands, but just any brand, you know, saying this is, and just putting their name on it because you know, then to some extent there's some kind of manipulation, there's some like corporate manipulation going on, you know, and it's a fine line isn't it, to, to work because obviously you need the and you need to be able to get things like, I'd like to talk about the upcoming documentary in Plain Sight that it needs to be made, but all.

So you need the funds for that, but also, you know, we can't have like, as Eric put it, like nefarious characters in the space. And there is really a need to purge those characters in order to, to kind of evolve out of this just kind of, you know, profiteering mindset.

[00:23:40] Lucy: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Kel: Yeah.

[00:23:42] Lucy: I agree 100%. It is very hard to ask for money.

Look back in 2020 we fought for and won a Senate inquiry into the barriers to patient access because at the time there was so many barriers. It was, it was really difficult, you know, as I said, it was an uphill push against government trying to push back all the time. But one of the recommendations of that Senate inquiry was a public awareness campaign.

[00:24:08] Lucy: Now that's never happened and, and you know, and the problem is it's a Schedule 8 medicine and you can't advertise Schedule 8 medicines, but there's never been just that awareness campaign. Which I think, you know, and that's kind of what I've tried to do through United in Compassion through creating Medicinal Cannabis Awareness Week where people aren't talking about brands or products or how much it costs but talking about how the medicine, how the endocannabinoid system works.

You know, the science of it, you know, why cannabis works so well, you know, the fact that we're kind of hardwired to respond to cannabis in the way that we do all of that needs to be explained and there's very little opportunity to be able to do that. I mean, we've set up Teach Hub, which is a, you know, accredited training for health professionals and that's very brand agnostic.

We've done that on purpose. It's not associated with branding, it's just associated with the science and the medicine that, that is there for medicinal cannabis. But the documentary needs to kind of, it needs to tell the story of how cannabis has evolved in Australia. And not gloss over the bad parts, because there's a lot of bad about what's happening now, you know.

We need the regulators to step up, and actually get a little bit interested in cannabis. And to make sure that professionals are maintaining their professional standings of, you know, that they're not, that they're not going crazy. And some of them are, some of them have just been literally lured to the dark side by the, by the opportunity of the massive money they can make you know, through all these vertically integrated clinics.

It's kind of, it's alarming, it's, it's frightening because, you know, patients are getting ripped off. They're not getting, they're not getting the benefit of a proper consultation that looks at their, you know, all their health conditions and their other medications and it, it's not collaborative with their regular doctor, it's just make a sale, make as many sales as you can, give them whatever.

You know, I, I've heard of consultations that start with What do you want? As in, what product do you want? Now, on what other planet do we go, what planet do you go with doctor and just say, Oh, I want some opiates, this, you know, I would like benzodiazepines because I just want them, you know, it's,

[00:26:38] Kel: yeah, it's no contact.

[00:26:42] Lucy: You know, but, but that has been allowed to happen because regulators have been disinterested or had their eye off the ball and it's been opportunistic, you know but, you know, there's plenty of regulation there, but just enforce the bloody regulation for God's sake, you know because patients are being ripped off and put at risk.

You know, we know that there are a certain cohort of patients that shouldn't have high THC flower prescribed to them. You know, that's a red flag. It should be a red flag. Yet there are some people that don't even ask that question. Do you know what I mean? So I think they're the kind of reasons why In Plain Sight needs to be made because we need to talk about the great things about medicinal cannabis, but also the not so great things.

We need patients to be aware that they may be that there are predatory behaviors out there. Yeah. And they may be a victim of a predatory behavior.

[00:27:43] Kel: Yeah. And

[00:27:44] Lucy: how do they, how are they aware? How do they protect themselves from that? You know, because if you're, yeah, if are really unwell and you're literally just trying to stay well or stay alive -you don't need that added burden of, you know but there's been no help in any of that. And there's been, it's been very difficult to raise the money for that. I would have thought that there were enough good companies that would support that. But, you know, I'm also not good at asking for money. So I suppose that's the other, that's the other part of it.

But.

[00:28:18] Kel: Yeah, I, I, I used to be in sales, so I'm alright asking people for money, to be honest. And I'll be honest, Lucy, when I saw you know, the 16 minute preview of In Plain Sight, which is on YouTube now, and I'll link that in the show notes, I was a little bit disappointed to see the lack of investment into getting this made, but I really would, you know, press upon anyone who has the economic means to do this, to really consider how this will benefit everyone and ultimately your brand as well.

So there's nothing to be lost from delving into the historical, political, and societal aspects of this is only things to be gained because knowledge is power. And we really need something like this to try and. You know, blend scientific insights with personal stories and really reveal the human side of the issue and try and shift people's mindsets because, you know, stay as they are.

So

[00:29:11] Lucy: it's it's one of those situations where, you know, I mean, media are often interested in medicinal cannabis stories, but the story, if you're going to tell it properly, it's so big, it's so complicated that people lose interest. So you have to tell it in a way that kind of. You know, like walks you through the journey you know, gives you a little bit of that science, which is really evolving and exciting and, you know human stories, now we can tie that to science, you know, it's not just what somebody's posted on Facebook or, you know, on the internet that's kind of it.

Is this true or not? You know, it's, you know, there's, there's studies going on globally that are proving the benefits of cannabis and the potential for cannabis to fight cancers. You know, we might've been naive in thinking that Dan could make an oil and that it would help his cancer situation. But the long picture is no, that actually wasn't naive.

That just hasn't happened yet. There are people working on this, you know? Yeah. That's exciting. You know, if, you know, cancer is such a scourge on our population globally imagine if there's something that can help, you know, can help reduce those cancer deaths. You know, it's not one other product, one of the medication that I can think of on the planet that does so much for so many different conditions, you know, and, I think we're past that point where, you know, I used to have so many doctors in particular say to me, oh, that sounds too good to be true.

It can't be true, you know. Well, actually, it is true. And if you knew about the endocannabinoid system and, and got yourself educated, you would understand that, yeah, this is actually very true. There's a reason why it works for so many different conditions. So. I think, you know one day, I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime, but I think one day will eventually, the penny will drop and people will start to realise this is a wonder drug.

It's not everything to everybody and it's not without some element of harm or risk to some patients, which is quite easily mitigated with education and When, when the aim of the, the clinical professional is to help the patient, not just to help you bank balance. So, you know, that's why this story needs to be told because I literally want to rub off.

The rest of the, the dirt that's sticking to cannabis and just really show people that, you know, this is something that's very special. Even the idea of being a company that goes about whether you're producing cannabis or selling cannabis through a prescription model or whatever. You can make money out of cannabis with, with integrity and with, you know, in an ethical way that is still putting the patient front and centre, you know.

People should look at this as an opportunity rather than a challenge that they have to try and circumvent and get around by breaking the law or, you know, or, or ignoring regulations. So, all those messages, I guess, somehow or other, I want to tie up into In Plain Sight. I'm really lucky that the producer that I'm working with who has done so much on a really small budget, but we're at the point where we can't do any more without budget, but he gets it.

Do you know what I mean? He, he has thoroughly delved into cannabis in a way that I never expected. to the point where he's, you know, kind of chomping at the bit. I want to do this. And I know you will tell the story the right way.

[00:32:52] Kel: Yeah,

[00:32:54] Lucy: Hopefully with UIC, with the next symposium. If there's some money left after that, I'll, you know, if no other, if nothing else happens, I will, you know, try and direct some of that to In Plain Sight. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's a really expensive event. It's about educating as many people as we possibly can to change their perceptions and to take away some of that stigma to support the patients, you know, like veterans who are still really hitting brick walls when it comes to dealing with, with DVA. You know, there's so many reasons to do the symposium and hopefully there'll be something left at the end of it that we can direct to in plain sight.

But really and truly, it's time that this industry in Australia stepped up and, and gave back, I think because as you said, it's only going to better their situation in the future. It's not, it's not about brands or whatever. It's about acceptance. And

I

think we're still, you know, we're still quite away from that.

Yeah.

[00:33:59] Kel: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. How, how far off do you think we are from, from At being at a point where, you know, it's accepted, say like CBD is just the norm and it's, yeah, people take that for their aches and pains like they would Panadol.

[00:34:15] Lucy: Yeah, look oh my gosh, I would like to say it's not too far away but, you know, I mean the reality is, it's, it's, you know, the way our system's set up to, you know, to get anything on the PBS it has to be registered on the ARTG, to be on the ARTG it has to have all these clinical trials and, Who's got the money to pour into clinical trials for something you can't patent, you know?

[00:34:39] Kel: Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:40] Lucy: You know, there's a lot of reasons why the clinical trial evidence that some doctors demand just doesn't exist. There are other levels of evidence which are more appropriate in this place, but. How do you tell that story to somebody who's just got this narrow tunnel vision? We're 10 years down the track, I think when, when we realised the way cannabis was going to be regulated, and this was kind of eight months and a day after the legislation passed, it was like, oh my god, this is going to take forever.

And it has, it's taken a long time to break down all these barriers. that have been put there intentionally in, you know, in a lot of cases.

[00:35:21] Kel: Yeah, I was going to say that, yeah.

[00:35:23] Lucy: It's but, you know, on the flip side, we've got a lot of patients accessing it. The genie's out of the bottle now. This ain't going away.

Patients who are relieving their symptoms with cannabis and are taking their medicine responsibly?

Why are we preventing them from being able to drive? You know.

[00:35:41] Kel: It's discriminatory, isn't it? It's, it's nothing other than discrimination because if you will allow people to drive on opioids, which come with a little label saying, don't operate heavy machinery. And, and, you know, you can be quote unquote fine and no one's going to like say anything if you just swerve off the road or whatever.

But yeah, you can't take, yeah, you can't take like a balanced oil that's relieving arthritis.

[00:36:06] Lucy: I think with a, with a potential, well, with potentially a change in government with a, with an election at any rate. We need a Senate inquiry, again now. We need a Senate inquiry that really digs deep into the issues around medicinal cannabis.

But more than that, we need a government that's going to implement the recommendations of such an inquiry. Because that's, you're going to have inquiries to the house, the cows come home, and if the government of the day couldn't give a flying whatever, they'll just sit on it and do nothing. And that's what's traditionally happened with medicinal cannabis.

Lots of positive recommendations are made for education, for public awareness you know, all of that and then nothing happens. The compassionate access, nothing happens until, you know, it's like we are the people that are doing it for ourselves but we shouldn't have to because that's what we elect government for.

[00:37:02] Kel: Yeah, that's it. And when it continues to transform like thousands or millions of lives for the better, then it's undeniable. And, and I guess it's about like, what kind of nation do we want to live in? Do we want to live in one where people have an opportunity to improve their quality of life and live better, whatever their circumstance, or, or one where we're just constantly battling illness.

We're just getting ill and just. Taking, they're just making us more ill and it's just round and round we go. And yeah, I, I didn't put this in the questions, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts, Lucy, on like what role do you think big pharna presence is plays in the kind of pushback and the kind of problems, that we're facing ultimately?

[00:37:49] Lucy: Oh. I used to think it would have been significant, but I'm not so sure now. They just get on the bandwagon. You know, it's very much like big tobacco. They're just on the bandwagon. Because very quickly, you know, it's, it's follow the money. When people see money in something, they're attracted to it like light.

So big tobacco, big farmer, they're, they're just getting involved. So Australia needs to kind of recognize the opportunities that we have in terms of an Australian industry. At the moment, our Australian growers are not very well supported. They have to really battle an unlevel playing field where it's much cheaper, easier to import a product from somewhere like Canada.

And they've got to try and compete with that.

You know, we know that we're being flooded with international products that are, you know unspecified quality. There's not the quality testing, yet we expect these really high quality standards if you're to grow in Australia under Australian conditions.

So it's an unlikely playing field. So, but you know, there's so much opportunity there. We could be exporting globally. We, you know, Australia has a really good reputation for being clean and green. And you know, why aren't we taking advantage of that? Why aren't we helping growers in Australia compete globally?

So in my mind, there's a lot of people in government across a lot of sectors that are really asleep at the wheel. And, you know, that's frustrating and makes me more than just a little bit mad, but you know You've just got to hope that the next lot will do better, but, you know, I kind of sense that it's still going to be a lot of, a lot of push you know, and all of this speaks back to why it's important to have something like In Plain Sight, because a documentary like that is not just about one aspect of the sector, it's about a whole lot you know, it's about how we can move forward.

Maximize support for Australian industry, because I don't think there would be an Australian that wouldn't like to take an Australian product if they had that option if it was cost competitive, and we certainly know that the quality would be probably superior. Yeah,

[00:40:07] Kel: yeah, the quality would be like A star and also from like an environmental standpoint, it's, it's, you know, it's easier on on the planet, less carbon, less, less transportation.

So there's a lot of positives.

[00:40:22] Lucy: Yeah. Look, there's more positives than negatives. And I guess that's why I'm still here after a decade, because I, yeah. But yeah. I, I think at the end of the day, we've gotta keep reminding ourselves, you know, the way you introduce this session, talking about how it's helping so many people to live a better life.

That's what's important. The rest of this is important, but that's got to, that's got to remain the focus.

[00:40:49] Kel: Absolutely. It's it's, it's life changing. It really, it really has been for myself and my partner. We both live with well, I've got severe endometriosis and And I've got a few other chronic back issues from a car crash.

So, yeah, I, I know what it's like to have to manage chronic pain and, and acute bouts of pain as well and how difficult that is and the stigma you come across. And I wouldn't have been able to start this. Podcasts or have this platform at all if it wasn't for the stability that it's given me and the ways it's kept my life back my functionality back There was times like a few years ago when I couldn't even go out for a walk I just wasn't getting really any exercise at all and just on the end down and not knowing you know what ways out of that and you just feel like you're in a sunken place and I think anyone who appreciates, like, the life of the mind, I know, the way I do, like, it's not a good feeling.

No one wants to feel out of it. Like, they can't think for themselves. It's, it's a horrible, a horrible feeling. So, yeah, and, and that's just me, me and my partner, but I know it's millions of people and I just feel like I just want to show gratitude wherever I can because I'm just immensely grateful for everything that you do.

Lucy and the whole community around this that continue to be so brave in the face of a lot of adversity and challenges. So, thank you again. Well,

[00:42:12] Lucy: I mean, I think Australia can only benefit if we get more people back to work because they're feeling, you know, they're feeling that they can work. And that's been a common story that I've heard over the last decade.

But the perception still remains that cannabis users are, you know, they're like sloths, you know, they're, they're disinterested, they're not motivated, you know, how many times have you heard that, where it's actually quite the opposite, it actually gives you capacity to be a functional working human being again.

You know, so that kind of thing doesn't really, how do you get that through? How do you, I think, had I understood really the, the history of prohibition of cannabis and all the misinformation and myths that have been instilled on us, you know, and I mean I, I carry that in my own personal attitude. I, I, I would never have started this if I hadn't realized how big that mountain is to climb where you've got to break down that initial barrier, which is how people actually look at cannabis.

And for most people in Australian society, it's with an element of disgust and disdain. Because I think people that use it are just lazy, they, you know, they're not motivated. They, they're just doing it because they want to opt out. Well, no, it's actually the opposite. People are using it because they want to opt back into life.

[00:43:43] Kel: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because it's not an easy track to walk. Like, like we were saying earlier for a patient, there's so much stigma. You can have practitioners who, like you say, can show like predatory behavior. You've got so much to navigate. The truth is, it's easier to just take some pills.

[00:44:02] Lucy: Yeah, that is it is and you can probably get them covered on the PBS and so it doesn't it doesn't cost you much money Yeah

That's how cannabis should be, you know If I think about where we would like to get to it should be like that where it could be like any other Medication you find your doctor your regular doctor that you see every week for every other medication that you might be on or every other condition that you might have or just for your regular health checks, that GP is happy to talk to you about cannabis because they understand it, they, they've been educated on it.

If they're a new grad, they were taught about it at uni, you know, your nurse learned about it at, you know, through nursing practice. through, through her education. You know, but that's, we're not at that point yet. I guess, I'm not, that's where I want to, that's where I would like Australia to get to, where everybody, everybody knows about it.

There's no shame in talking about it. You can talk about it anywhere, any place. I mean, God, we used to have code words for talking about cannabis, you know, because we were too ashamed to say it out loud because people would look at you like you were a bad person if you said that word.

[00:45:16] Kel: Right.

[00:45:18] Lucy: You know, I mean, in some respects we've come a long way since then.

That was 2014 and I'm grateful for that, but we still have a long way to go. Yeah, acceptance, acceptance to a patient is everything, I think.

[00:45:32] Kel: Absolutely. Yeah. Empathy, acceptance, being treated like a human being who, you know, wants what's best for themselves.

[00:45:40] Lucy: Yeah. And with, you know, dignity and respect, you, you shouldn't have to go in hospital or go on a trip and worry that you're going to get picked up at the airport with your prescribed cannabis or that you're going to be told to take that home you can't have that in this facility because the nurses don't know how to deal with that, you know.

There's a lot to do. And, and I guess one thing I probably could use as an example that. It really shows where we're at today. In 2014, when I put on the first symposium, I, I invited Brett Holmes, who was the head of the ANMF in New South Wales, the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation. And he came along kind of a bit reluctantly.

He was just being polite. And I remember him saying to me, Lucy, I can't stay. You know, he'd flown up from Sydney, said, I can't stay. I'm here for the official opening. It was being opened by Premier Mike Baird. And he said, but I'll have to get back to Sydney. Well, he ended up staying for the two days and came to the evening function that night, which surprised me that he stayed so long.

And he said to me at the end, I can't believe I didn't know about this. I can't believe what I'm hearing, what I'm seeing. This is amazing. And the ANMF has been a really big support. And I've been really proud to be able to bring the ANMF along on the medicinal cannabis journey.

Olivia Newton John, just before her death, she spoke at the Symposium in 2023, I'm going to say, at the Nurses Conference.

We had a Nurses Conference sponsored by the ANMF at the Symposium. Olivia presented when she was extremely, extremely ill, not long before she died. But it was wonderful. Do you know what I mean? I got so much from that and I was so proud that the nurses were standing up for cannabis and standing up for patients.

The following year they sponsored.

This, this year they were going to sponsor and they were going to have a trade exhibition. They've just pulled back on that. They've just withdrawn and they've said that they can't, whilst ever there is the prescribing problems that are going on with Nurse Nurse practitioners in particular and this is going back to those things that we were talking about where, where clinics are becoming all about profits and not about patients.

 I've since written to them and said, this is exactly why you need to be here because we need to encourage nurses to do the right thing and nurse practitioners to prescribe safely.

You know, we need to talk to APRA and hear from APRA about professional responsibilities and professional boundaries. You know, that's why you should be involved. But so. You know, I guess it's knockbacks like that where you think, Oh my God, we've just gone back, I don't know, five years, 10 years in that particular aspect.

And we know now that there are so many nurses and first responders that are using it to help manage their chronic conditions and their PTSD.

So we've actually gone backwards and this is because of behaviours, which I don't blame the ANMF. I can see why they've done it. They're responding to the current climate which is not particularly nice, you know, some aspects of it, but that's gonna hurt patients.

That's actually just set us all back.

[00:49:14] Kel: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of reactivity and,

uh, and I understand where they're coming from too, but there's still a lot of kind of like fear and It seems to be stirred up so easily by the media and, when there's already that stigma and bias there, it just seems to spill over so easily.

[00:49:31] Lucy: Yeah. So, you know, I mean, that's why we've got to encourage industry to come at this with integrity, to do the right thing. Because they're ruining it. for everybody. And to them, it might just be a business. And it's all about, you know, making a fast buck and making plenty of it.

But for patients, it's, it's rather more important than that. And so if you set things back the way they are, you know, in, in terms of a big organisation, one of the biggest unions in Australia, withdrawing their support You know, apart from the fact that they should be ashamed of themselves, it's going to ultimately hurt their business.

Yeah, that's the irony of it all, isn't it? Because, yeah, it will ultimately lead them to not be able to profit from people's pain anymore, which they shouldn't be doing in the first place. And ultimately, money that you make from a business is an exchange of energy. And if they focus more on on purpose and then that would just come naturally anyway.

I do, I do believe that. I mean, but yeah, these people don't belong in, in healthcare at all. So yeah, that's disappointing to, to hear that. And, and yeah, I, do hope things, shift. For the better and yeah, for those who are listening who want to support In Plain Sight and want to support the mission and want to be on kind of the right side of history with this, what's, what's something that they can do?

What's like a meaningful action do you think that they can take to make a difference?

Look, I just think always support anybody that you know that's using medicinal cannabis for, for a condition, you know, don't talk to, you talk to them about it like it's a, an acceptable commonplace thing because that's how it should be.

In terms of supporting the documentary, I mean, if you can give a few dollars. Please, if you can, if you can give a lot of dollars, well that would be awesome. You know, I, I, I guess I just, I need people's help now. It, it, it, yeah, I guess we've just gotten to that point. I mean, it, it, it will either happen or it won't.

And I guess that's really up to the Australian public to decide.

But if they want to support it, they want to see it, and I think it is an important story. It's not Dan's story anymore. This is about Australia and about Australian patients. It's their story. So you know, if it's important to you, just contribute in any way you can.

But at the moment it comes down to finances to get it told.

[00:51:57] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. I urge anyone to support in plain sight, however you can, because we really need this public awareness campaign, this education. We need something that I guess we can all be anchored in when these kind of curveballs are getting thrown at everyone.

 It's a solid foundation that everyone can stand on. So yeah, I urge everyone to support it and I'll link it in the show notes. So. So people can go to the GoFundMe and do that.

[00:52:23] Lucy: That'd be great. Thank you. Thank you so much,

[00:52:26] Kel: Lucy, for your time and being so candid. And I hear what you're saying.

It's not something you can just a quick chat you can have in 10, 15 minutes. It's a very complex societal issue, a political issue. It's a lot of things. And for everyone listening yeah, just be very mindful about patients and the journey that they're on and And, and realize that this is really life changing for a lot of people.

So we need to support that.

[00:52:51] Lucy: Thanks Kel..

[00:52:54] Kel: Thanks so much, Lucy. You take care and all the best for the symposium and the doco.

[00:52:58] Lucy: Thanks so much. Bye now.

[00:53:00] Kel: And that, dear listeners, brings to close episode 13 of Phoenix Sound. Today's conversation with Lucy Haslam was a powerful reminder of the impact one person's determination can have, not just on policy, but on people's lives. Three key takeaways I'm taking from our discussion today were that advocacy creates real change, Lucy's journey shows us that even in the face of immense personal loss, persistence and purpose can shift community mindsets and even national policy.

The second takeaway for me was how education is crucial here to erasing the stigma and misinformation still surrounding medical cannabis. And just how vital projects like In Plain Sight are in challenging outdated narratives. I also think that today was a really good reminder that our voices matter and the collective impact they can have when everyone's together on the same team advancing the same cause.

Whether it's supporting ethical Prescribing practices or pushing for better regulations or simply sharing informed perspectives. We all have a role to play in shaping the world we live in. If you'd like to support United in Compassion or help fund the documentary in plain sight, check out the links in the show notes.

Thanks for tuning in. Until next time, I'm Kel Myers and this is Phoenix Sound. 

Get full access to Phoenix Sound by Kel Myers at phoenixsound.substack.com/subscribe