What does diversity and inclusion mean? How is it relevant in Asia's business environment? Why should local business leaders take action now? These are some of the questions that Inclusively hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia tackle in the inaugural episode of a new podcast series from Be Inclusive. A new episode will be served fresh  every week starting February 2020.

****TRANSCRIPT****

Laurindo Garcia 0:00
Hi, my name is Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow 0:02
And my name is Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia 0:03
And welcome to this new podcast called inclusively.

Petrina Kow 0:06
This is really exciting because I think this is the first time maybe in Singapore that we are having a podcast dedicated to the subject of diversity and inclusion. . Yeah. And tell us a little bit more about how all this came about.

Laurindo Garcia 0:20
So I'm founder of a social enterprise called be inclusive. We've been working in the inclusion inclusion space here in Singapore and across Southeast Asia for the last 10 years. And in that journey, we've seen how many companies large and small, have really see the the people inside these companies have seen themselves as wanting to make their company more inclusive to different groups to different talent to different customers, but they don't know how to do it. Yeah, they say all the case studies that we see come from the US or Europe or Australia, but we want to know what works in Asia. We want to know what other companies are doing in Asia, but we can't find that information. And I need to get buy in from my boss or I need to get my buy in from my stakeholders or whatever the case may be. But we need things that are relevant for us here in this region. And so that is what really compelled us to create a series where local companies and not just in Singapore, but across the region, can be sharing their stories and let these stories help motivate people to let them know that yes, it can be done here in Asia in a very Asian way. But nonetheless, there's still work to be done here and lots of opportunities that can be opened here as well.

Petrina Kow 1:29
Amazing. So So this series is really going to be a journey, I suppose that we will take with these stories and companies and these individuals who will share with us their perspectives, their experiences, perhaps not being included in the space where they're working or where they're, where they're at. And perhaps what are some of the challenges they face and what what has been done and what still needs to be done. Is that right? Yeah. So I'm very happy to be on this journey with you. I'm so glad you thought of me. I know very little about diversity and inclusion. So I'm going to be the one asking all the silly questions, so to speak. But I also feel that I think this is one area that a lot of Singaporeans, perhaps, or people in Asia are not clued into just because, and oftentimes, maybe there's a, there's a weird misconception, maybe that there is these are Western ideas. So I don't know how you feel about that.

Laurindo Garcia 2:32
First of all, there's no silly question. I want to create a safe space for questions to be asked. And I think that that's part of the the challenge with this topic. People often want to avoid being seen as not being inclusive. Most people see themselves as actually being inclusive every day. And so to be asking questions, people are worried that they may embarrass themselves or they may embarrass other people by raising such a sensitive question. Like this. And so I do want to create a safe space within this series that we can ask these questions that people may have felt uncomfortable speaking about or talking about before. So just want to make that clear. But secondly, to think that it's a Western thing, I think misses the point that Asia, Singapore particularly and I are neighbours as well have been diverse and very inclusive for a very long time, you may have a very different lens of it, compared to the United States and other areas. But it's definitely not something that's an import. We've been doing it for a long time. We've got communities that have been inclusive to different groups, different tribes, different ethnic groups, for a very long time, we've learned to live in harmony. So I think that it's important for us to recognise that and the way that we implement, may need to adapt from a Western perspective, but I would like us to avoid this whole East versus West thing. It's definitely happening here. And that's part of the point of this podcast is to really surface those examples.

Petrina Kow 3:59
I would love to be hear stories who have companies or organisations that have been doing that? Perhaps not with the names that were familiar with, but it's also embedded within policy and if it wasn't, but it's not official, like, how does that work to, you know, I think those those are sometimes the stories that we don't get to hear, because it's not called something but hopefully stick with us and keep listening to all the episodes, we will find those stories for you.

Laurindo Garcia 4:28
And I'm glad you also highlighted this, this word around journey. We get caught up in thinking, Okay, our endpoint destination, so to speak, is to have that policy, have these things put in place to have a wheelchair ram implemented, to have caregivers leave for working parents and so on whatever the case may be. But I think that's missing the point. That may be part of the journey, but that's not the end point because he would be a terrible situation where you had these great policies but people felt scared to take up the use of these policies, people felt scared to speak up about how their particular circumstances may be different from the rest of their colleagues at work. And so that's where the distinction is, is that the journey is there to have these structures in place, but it's really about cultures it's really about how people interact with each other and people being okay with there being differences sometimes

Petrina Kow 5:26
Perhaps we could give our listeners a bit of a sneak peek even now in the coming weeks to what will be happening on the episodes. So I think one of the big questions that I had my head when you approached me with this topic was I mean, what is diversity and inclusion in the first place and what's the difference it or if there is any between diversity and inclusion,

Laurindo Garcia 5:47
I'll do my best to explain that diversity is most commonly thought of the the, the act of checking boxes, making sure that different perspectives different groups of people different capabilities are brought to the table in an organisation or even in a in a city in a country even at that level. More often than not, it's equated to different identity groups, people with disabilities, women, ethnic racial minorities, there's being gay, bisexual, transgender people, incarcerated individuals. I mean, the list goes on. That's mainly because to varying degrees, these things can be measured. Yep. But they are often just a proxy for what the business research says is the business value of diversity, which is about perspective. The business research says that having diverse perspectives on a team, particularly a team that has to solve big, tough, complex problems, by having those diverse perspectives set you up to be able to attack that problem from multiple viewpoints and find the most most feasible and valuable answer Yeah, So that's what the business ratio says. It doesn't always necessarily equate that just because you've got different ethnicities and genders and all that on your team, that they're going to have different perspective.

Petrina Kow 7:11
Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia 7:12
Because you may have all like a very racially diverse and gender diverse team, but they may have all gone to the same school.

Petrina Kow 7:21
Yes .So there's a strange coupling there then that, you know, just because we've ticked the boxes in all the other categories, that then there isn't any group thing, right. But they just all happen to be from Harvard. So yeah,

Laurindo Garcia 7:35
That's right. That's right.

Petrina Kow 7:36
So in a way we are moving just beyond those clear markers. And we're looking also at sort of mental perspectives and maybe even experience that's right experiences and yeah,

Laurindo Garcia 7:49
And also for these different perspectives, to then really be acknowledged and to be a valued and for them to really contribute to problems. Then there needs to be a culture where differences of opinion can flourish without people feeling oppressed, harassed all of these things. And of course, there has to be respect in these exchanges. And so that's why it's not just diversity alone, but you need inclusion, you need belonging, you need that cultural element, organisational, cultural element to be side by side, in order for us to then for companies in particular, to realise the true business value of diversity inclusion to be there. And I want to add, some listeners may be thinking, Oh, I'm a small medium enterprise. I'm a startup, I'm just starting. I've got two or three people. And I don't have enough cash flow to be hiring all these people. How can I be diverse? Right? And this is where the council to people in this situation is that you can be inclusive from the get go? Yeah, you can have a company that encourages differences of opinion, to flourish to make sure that you're really looking 360 around a problem. You don't necessarily need to check all the boxes in terms of diversity at if your company is not at that stage just yet. Yeah, but at least be a company that enables differences of opinion, different perspectives, to make sure that you're really covering all your bases when you're making a strategic decision or businesses decision or so on.

Petrina Kow 9:33
If I am a team leader, perhaps I can start doing that now.

Laurindo Garcia 9:38
That right, yeah, exactly. I mean, yes, your company increases in the number of employees, the complexity starts sitting in. Yeah, your company may need that diversity inclusion person to be there for that role to then support all of the business teams and so on. But I think it's pretty safe to assume that once that person is in place, That person will automatically say, diversity. Inclusion is not my ability. It's everyone's responsibility. And that goes back to your point before that everybody can already take steps to do that no matter what size of business, and it can render direct business outcomes in relation to getting talent, the talent that you need, keeping that talent as well as having products and services that can be more relevant to the market as well.

Petrina Kow 10:26
Yeah. So I think that's a lot for us to cover in the coming weeks. And I was reminded of the story that I was told once by a friend and she is possibly in her mid 70s. And her name is Sylvia. And she told me that she was the first female engineer to be working at Google, like in the 60s, right. So she worked for the shell the company, and there were no female toilets, because it just were never will Men right? In the oil refinery So, so it was one of those things where, you know, along she came and then everyone just sort of like all the guys were like, Whoa, okay, I guess we'll figure it out. And it just so happened that they just would take turns to kind of guard the toilet for her. And she had to go or she would have to make big announcements and, and, you know, I mean, that was in the 60s. So I mean, I when I when you're telling me those stories, but you know, what is diversity and inclusion, it just occurred to me that, you know, even in such a basic way, like provision of facilities could just be a demonstration of inclusivity. Right, or just thinking about who are the people that work for you.

Laurindo Garcia 11:41
When you told me that story? I was, I had this scenario in my mind where there she had to defend her right to go to the toilet, on the job, and kind of make the business case about whether she has to have a toilet for so far. Not in all of these. These accommodations being made. I mean, did she say anything about

Petrina Kow 11:59
Think that was just what she you know, like all women be you know, as as a minority is the only one in that space and in that environment it's like all the stories we've heard like I'm also reminded of that movie numbers is that when the about the the women who were working in NASA and crunching numbers,

Laurindo Garcia 12:20
Hidden Figures

Petrina Kow 12:21
Hidden Figures that's right and the toilets were far far away right and they had to run miles to get to the female toilet and and it was just one of those things where I think you just work within the environment you have, and you don't speak up, you don't talk about it, and you just suck it up as it were right. And I just couldn't imagine for them what I think eventually they they built a toilet but it just took forever, like years before. Like, you know, something happened,

Laurindo Garcia 12:46
Right

Petrina Kow 12:47
Yeah. Or maybe in the second female employee, or something like that.

Laurindo Garcia 12:51
Yeah. And we'll be hearing stories about that about companies who have hired employee number one, and that employee number one was great to have them on board, they brought some amazing talent on board, but then it created some friction within the workplace. Different accommodations needed to be put into place. Like say, for example, a person with physical disabilities, they needed wheelchair access to the place to the office, and those things weren't there yet. So lots of these things needed to be done. And perhaps there may have been people inside the company saying, hey, but you know, is this worth it? Are they for this and make all of this? You know, what's the point of doing all of this? And we'll be hearing from those people involved in that process and in the why, why do it and what happened and how we change so so that's one thing that I think speaks to that, that that story that you shared from decades ago, and how we're still dealing with that now. But I think to to contrast with that, we've also got some incredible best case scenarios of companies that have made it their their, I guess their their reason for being of their company to lead with clusion company has gone out there and created a product that they have promised the market that it would be the most inclusive product in the market, you can use the product to I won't mention names yet you gotta tune in. But you can use the product to find a home, where to rent a home where you would be included as a racial minority minority as a lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender person, whatever the case may be, yeah, but you can filter your landlords according to how inclusive they will be. And what happened with this companies, of course, with a product like that, that makes news, these are talking about that. And when I spoke to the CEO, this company, he talked about not only did they save marketing budget, in having such an interesting and novel and really problem solving product out there because you can imagine all the people who have been affected by this. They're sharing that that news To all of their friends and family and someone who experiences problem, and that network effect of that product story moves out into the market and the and the company didn't have to pay very little for marketing budget. Yeah. And then the thing that they didn't expect is that all of a sudden, they got so many people wanting to work for that company. And that also reduce their recruitment budget as well, because all of a sudden, they don't have to go out there for people, people were coming to them. They were a magnet for all of this talent, who were enamoured with a vision to love what the product was trying to do. And they wanted to be part of that. And these are some ways where inclusive business practices can help have a direct impact on your on your business. Bottom line.

Petrina Kow 15:42
Yeah. So that's exciting. And I mean, I, you know, when you talked about this idea of diversity and inclusion, I've never actually, I mean, it's not it's not even never actually but like you, you just assume that it would be more marginalised groups, you know, but then when You mentioned things like, oh, caregivers, you know, like, Well, yeah, half the working population are women. And, you know, we're still dealing with that, you know, dealing with how do we provide better childcare options? And what are our company's policies with regards to parental leave and, and, you know, all that sort of thing, which is like, that's the day to day. That's, I mean, I think in in in Singapore, we have had a governmental policy in place, which allows for, you know, more affordable, foreign domestic worker care, but I also feel like that is one way that we've dealt with it as a nation, but in many other countries and many other types of models. So I mean, that's something I hope we will get to cover. And that will be really, really fascinating. Yeah,

Laurindo Garcia 16:51
Absolutely. I mean, I think that the whole issue about creating more spaces, more workplaces that are inclusive to women, really shows about how long we've been Talking about this for four decades, let alone four other minority groups as well. Yeah. And as much as we want to make sure that we are creating space and hearing the voices of people from underrepresented groups, we also need to make sure that we are really understanding about what is the business case for all of this at the end of the day, because unlike the United States, or Australia or Europe, there are no top down legislative measures that compel companies to be more inclusive. So this is a market driven approach. And I believe that the only way that we're going to encourage and excite business leaders to make these changes, we still need to show that the business case, yeah, and let them know that can be done even in the Asian context.

Petrina Kow 17:41
I mean, do you think that's the most compelling way? Because I mean, I know one of the challenges is that we all understand the problem. We see the problem, we recognise it, but and we all want to do good, you know, so I kind of I was thinking about it in relation to let's see the green movement, right? How can we be more eco friendly consciousness in the way we conduct our business. And, you know, if there's no incentive for me to change the way I throw my trash and whatever, then most businesses would be like, yeah, okay, whatever. No. So what would you think is the most effective way, I suppose, well to implement change, great. If only we knew.

Laurindo Garcia 18:22
The reason why I think now is the right time for a podcast like this is just because there's a lot of market research that has shown that among job seekers, among fresh graduates, among customers, and also most recently, amongst investors, they have rising social consciousness, but what companies are doing in the world, whether it's on the environmental side or the social side, and what this means that they are holding companies to hire applications, to be environmentally friendly, sustainable, but also inclusive as well. Yeah, and that's a good thing. So there's pressure coming from the market if you're wanting to hire first Graduates, if you're wanting to hire new people, there is companies are now in the interview process they're being asked. So how are you? Yeah, and and companies need to be able to answer that. And I think that we need to do our best to help particularly the local companies show how they can compete with the multinationals that have perhaps been doing this in offshore markets. And and give them what they need to show, hey, we, we've got this, we can do this in our own way. And it's definitely something that is meaningful for us.

I'm so excited. And I'm so happy that you've included me in this process of exploring this with you.

Petrina Kow 19:35
Thank you, thank you.

Laurindo Garcia 19:36
Thank you. I'm very excited as well, and we're in for a great ride.

Petrina Kow 19:39
In the meantime, of course, if you enjoyed this podcast and you really think that it's opened up your mind and help you to be a little bit more inclusive. Please like this podcast, maybe submit a review of how you know what more stories perhaps you've come across an inclusive business or maybe you run an inclusive business yourself, do reach out to us and leave us a review and of course, my interest Like and share,

Laurindo Garcia 20:01
Like and share please.

Petrina Kow 20:03
Until next time, my name is Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia 20:06
And I'm Laurindo Garcia. Thank you so much for listening