Inclusively by Be Inclusive

Lockdowns have helped some families stay healthy while separating others, and social distancing has isolated many people from their regular support networks. In the last episode of the Lessons From The Pandemic season, Petrina and Laurindo speak to Ching Shuyi who had to put her wedding plans on hold and Jean Chong who surveyed the mental health impact of Covid 19 on LGBTQ people. The artist in residence for this episode is musician Candice De Rozario from Sangriento.

Find out more in the show notes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Inclusively. In this series, we're asking, how is the pandemic changed people's lives? And what lessons have we learned that could make a post pandemic world more inclusive? I'm your host, Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:14] And I'm Petrina Kow. In today's episode will be putting the spotlight on relationships, how we've, I suppose, survived or not. Our relationships with our families and loved ones during this lockdown.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:29] We'll be looking at how we've people have searched for love in a time when we've had to be socially distant from each other in order to stay healthy and also examine how relationships still may be facing challenges even after the pandemic is over.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:44] And as course with with every episode, we have a panel of special guests. And today. Today we'll be. They'll be here to help us explore the theme from various different perspectives. We'll be hearing from Miss Shuyi Ching, who got engaged last year. And this year was all about, you know, wedding planning and going out there and searching for, you know, venues. But clearly, things might have just, you know, changed somewhat. So we really look forward to your story there, Shuyi. Hi, welcome.

Shuyi Ching: [00:01:14] Hello. Hi everybody. I'm Shuyi.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:01:17] And also I'll be sharing a story, my own story as well, talking a little bit about my own experience in Singapore and what the impact of the pandemic has been on my life. My relationship also with my husband and us caring for my 90 year old mother in law who has dealing with late stage dementia as well, and what it's meant for us as a couple. I'll also be speaking to Jean Chong, the founder of the LGBT organisation called Sayoni. Jean we'll be sharing a new research that she, her organisation has gathered on the impact of the pandemic on the LGBT community. Welcome, Jean,

Jean Chong: [00:01:52] Hey everyone.

Petrina Kow: [00:01:53] Thanks, Jean. And our artists in residents for this episode is Candice De Rozario, who will be also giving her perspective in the world of online dating and offer us a song to wrap up the show. So glad to have you with us today Candice, welcome.

Candice De Rozario: [00:02:07] Thank you. Hi everyone. This is Candice. Artist in residence. That actually has a really nice ring to it? I've never been called that before.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:14] We like to have that every with every episode. So we always have something, you know, that we can offer to our listeners. Thank you so much, all of you, for joining us today. But let's kick off the show today with you, Shuyi. Thanks for joining us. And I'm so I'm a bit bummed that we couldn't have your fiancee to join join us, too. But he is also artist in residence at nine years, theater and training very hard at the moment. Now, both of you, I guess, are. Well, showbiz power couple, in a way, right so both of you are actors. We've seen on stage together. And I suppose love blossomed. And you got engaged last year. So congratulations.

Shuyi Ching: [00:03:00] Thank you. Thank you. Yes, we did. Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:03:02] And and I guess when this year when things were supposed to pick up for you guys and, you know, you're planning to get married and, you know, start your family together and then the lockdown happened. So tell us a little bit about what the decision would have was like with the two of you. So not quite married yet, but about to. But now what do we do? Yeah. What don't you tell us?

Shuyi Ching: [00:03:27] Yeah, we got engaged last year and then the plan was that we finally set a wedding date for next year and 2021. So we were thinking of going to different venues. We were even thinking going to Malaysia to source out wedding venues, and that that was the idea. We were planning to go in March and we had our plane ticket booked, our accommodation booked, and then the lockdown happened, which we had to had everything refunded. Because both of our families are right here and right now in station Singapore. And my parents came back from China and are stuck here. I have a grandmother at home that I have to take care of. So I think that was the biggest reason why we chose to stay with our families. And I think it's quite an important time to be with your families so that, you know, everybody knows that we're all safe. And then when the circuit breaker period happened, our PM Lee saying, we shouldn't visit everybody. I guess when you have an elderly person at home, I think that's more of a more mature thing to do.

Petrina Kow: [00:04:43] Yeah. And I mean, so but but did you all have conversations at all about oh maybe how about I go and stay with your family? Or you come move in with my family like did that, that ever happen?

Shuyi Ching: [00:04:54] Have, have, have. I definitely have like we did talk about it but because I think. A lot of our lives or a lot of the things that we own or we need are in our individual homes. It's still makes more sense that we still live in our respective places so that we're within this period, whatever we wanted to do, whatever we want it to, you know, to create or whatnot in this period. We have the things we need in our respective spaces rather than moving everything there or vice versa.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:32] And so what has it been like? Because literally you have not physically been close to him for two months now or longer. Right. Do you guys have a calendar where you're, like, marking down the days?

Shuyi Ching: [00:05:45] No, I know it's it's definitely hard. I think, you know, if you know how different couples have different love languages and different way of communicating and stuff like that, for us, I think being there physically is a very big love language for us and being. And, you know, like so I guess like hugging each other and stuff like that. So I think that that's the hardest thing. In our relationship. And you know that this period hasn't it hasn't given it, given us that.

Shuyi Ching: [00:06:22] But was there was there anything that, you know, in this two month period of sort of physical separation that sort of surprised you? Like, how did your relationship either, like, sort of like what what was sort of interesting or surprising about this period for you guys?

Shuyi Ching: [00:06:39] The surprising part is that, you know, even we're not physically there or here for each other. We still we still talk a lot like we Face Time every other two hours. Sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

Petrina Kow: [00:07:04] Young love. I thought you say every two days because it's like I look at my my texts with my husband and I'm like, oh, I have to scroll very far down before his name comes up. This is is a, you know, 20 years married at nine different. Wonderful. And then. So I think because of this period of separation, was there something that developed in your relationship that you had that you both sort of discovered?

Shuyi Ching: [00:07:37] Yeah. I mean, before I think we would always be slightly more dependent on one another. I think we still are. But I think we've grown kinda a different way of dependency, whereas you could be independent physically by yourself. But at the same time, you know, thinking about the other person. Yeah. Or whenever you need something or whether it's tangible or intangible, you could say he will always be there or she will always be there.

Petrina Kow: [00:08:08] I hope you guys get to see each other soon.

Shuyi Ching: [00:08:10] I hope so, too. I really do.

Petrina Kow: [00:08:13] Did you did you dream this moment? Like, do you like sort of think about what's the first thing you'll do when you see when you see him again?

Shuyi Ching: [00:08:21] Well, the first thing that Tim wants to do is to go and eat. He wants to have hot pot right away and then this period and it's so bad, something he misses quite a bit.

Petrina Kow: [00:08:35] Well, I do remember when I was a, you know, as a student back in the day and and I remember being separated from my boyfriend for like almost six months. And then, you know, I remember when I was returning back to Sydney then and he was coming up, coming to pick me up at the airport, just like I was like playing this movie in my head about like what it was, what it was like to sort of, you know, come out the gates with the luggage and with the first thing I do be like to run or do I drop my bags or do I bring my bags for us? And do I hug or do I kiss or like what does it do? I do you know, it's like this whole movie that plays Oh oh young love. I do love such a nice reminder of of, you know, that beautiful blossoming, you know, love that, you know, in the beginnings of relationship that that is so all consuming and so beautiful. Yeah. So thanks for sharing that, Shuyi. Thank you. So now it's my turn to kind of like turn the turn the tables a little. And usually at this point, my co-host, Mr. Laurindo Garcia, will be, you know, interviewing other people. But we're turning the spotlight on him today. And, you know, I think this is a this is an important story that I've been I've been wanting and meaning to to sort of get out there at some point. And I remember way back when Laurindo you remember when you asked me to host close this podcast with you? I said, I'll do it if only you will tell your story. So we're finally doing it on the last episode.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:10:19] I do remember that. So we are living up to that promise. Yes.

Petrina Kow: [00:10:25] Yeah. Tell us a little about your story, because we know you're here and you're married to your partner and your husband, Alan, and both of you are helping to look after your mother in law. But you're, you know, for most, you know, sort of married couples, maybe it's kind of a straightforward story. Right. But for you guys, it's not so straightforward a story. So tell us what what it is that you've you've been sort of dealing with when you were talking about airports.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:10:55] And also Shuyi was talking about, you know, having to feel that Face Timing and messaging is enough for tending the relationship. I was smiling because I've been with my husband together for 16 years. And the majority of the time we have been apart long distance because I'm a foreigner and I don't I don't live permanently in Singapore. And we'll get to the reasons why that is in a minute. But this time, I've been in Singapore since the middle of March. I came back quickly from the United States after doing a project in the US and had to leave ahead of schedule because of the unfolding pandemic in the United States and had to get out of the unites us and was intending only to have a pitstop. You're in Singapore on the way back to Australia, which is where I'm from. That pitstop of a couple of weeks has then expanded to four months. And in the 16 years that I have been together, we haven't been in the same country for four months. I don't think ever. Because I basically need to go in and out over the country or have been living in other parts of the world because I'm only able to come in on short term visits to see Alan and spend time or we meet in other countries. And in a way, the pandemic has been a blessing in disguise because on this supposes, you know, the supposedly short trip. Alan's mum, she turned 90 two weeks ago, was diagnosed as terminally ill. She's been dealing. We all as a family have been dealing with her living with dementia for quite a number of years. And it's quite an advance stage at this time. And we've finally got to a point where the doctors had diagnosed her as terminally ill and it's time for her to start home based palliative care. And that's a big transition, not only in terms of the way that the house operates, but also just mentally. We're really trying to having to shift our mindset for this this eventuality that we don't know when will happen, but we know it's going to happen sooner rather than later. And so while it's great that we've been able to be physically together to help navigate this change, at the same time, we're also wondering, well, what's going to happen? Because I do need to leave. I just applied for an extension because I'm unable to leave Singapore right now because there's no flights, even if I wanted to leave. I can't leave because there are there are no flights. But there will come a time when I will need to leave, probably in a month's time with six weeks time or so. And in one scenario, could be that when I leave and if she's still with us when I leave, if that is the case, when I leave, I will not be able to say goodbye. If she passes while I'm away, because all if you've been reading the news and they've been looking, there've been questions raised about what is going to happen with the with the travel. Global travel situation. You know, if there's one thing that is certain with this pandemic is this chorus of people saying international travel is not going to ease up for quite a long time, people won't be able to travel as as freely and easily. And even the best case scenario is that I can come back to Singapore for another visit, but I will be what I will be in on quarantine, in quarantine for 14 days, which won't be much use if I'm coming back trying to come back for a funeral anyway. So it kind of defeats the purpose. So that's the kind of situation that we've been grappling with. And I'm kind of in limbo, but kind of liking it at the same time. And lots of questions have surfaced as a result of this.

Petrina Kow: [00:15:02] So there's a lot of uncertainty is what I'm hearing. And I mean, if I could rewind back to when you said I you're gonna have to leave eventually, is that because your your likely literally your time is up, meaning you have an end date to when you cannot actually be legally in this country or something?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:15:20] That's right. That's right. Each visit I'm a short, short time visit, short time visitor. I can only stay for for 90 days on the passport that I'm holding, which is great. I mean, some people are not even allowed 90 days. And usually I don't stay for that long because I've got other commitments in, you know, back in Australia or in other projects in other parts of the world. I don't work in Singapore. My all of my work is overseas right now. I'm out of work because all of my projects have been cancelled because of the pandemic. So right now, thankfully, I've got a I've got time to do podcasts and things like that and also spend time with mom. But yeah, usually for us, the norm is here. We see each other for a couple of weeks and then it's face time.

Petrina Kow: [00:16:11] So what's that been like? Because I mean, I know of some couples who also do this international thing and like sometimes when they're in the same place for an extended period of time, like interesting things happen with them. So now that you said that this has been the longest time that you both have been in the same house. Like, what was what was some interesting discoveries that you had

Laurindo Garcia: [00:16:11] Of any time to try to to be in the same location and also be at home 24 hours a day, seven days a week because of the lockdown down? The circuit breaker has really been an eye opener. And and I. And, you know, we see this as a as a treat. We've been enjoying it. We've been, you know, really appreciating just having each other at arm's length when we feel like having a conversation or just being there for each other as as all of these uncertainties have unfolded. We could not have arrived at this level of appreciation had it not been for all of that separation being the norm previously. So I think we are counting our blessings. But at the same time, we know that this is also short lived. So we better make the most about most of it while we've got it.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:27] Well, I hope that, you know, the the reason for you staying or going is no longer one about illegal is no longer illegality. You know, it's it's about, you know, your own choice, you know, when you decide to come and go as opposed to being forced, you know, by immigration. I don't think anybody wants to feel like they're at the mercy of immigration. But, you know, I think that's where we are beginning to find that. Yeah, it's tearing families apart. Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:02] Yeah. And I do want to kind of couch that by saying we've been in contact with the immigration authorities about this situation right now and asking for extensions. And they've been really understanding and supportive as well. Definitely not the only family dealing with this. And so I think that they are doing their best given the circumstances. So that's a good thing. But but on that note, I do want to open the conversation to Jean and invite you in on this, because I'm assuming I'm not the only person in this situation. Jean, is that right?

Jean Chong: [00:18:41] Oh, yeah. There's a lot of LGBT couples that in transnationally relationships, those struggling with it. I mean, actually, I'm kinda like Laurindo. Well, now I'm dating someone from L.A. and she's a leader in Asian American LGBT communities. Other than dealing with that distance. But also, she's on the streets protesting so far. So your lie, she said you must. I'm one of those aunties queuing at the post office sending a masks and equipments to her. But essentially, I mean, looking at Laurindo's struggles for so long, I'm well aware that this is going to take a long time to change. So the argument is that are we going to wait for the government to change their mind. So actually, the plan is leave eventually because that's the only way out. Because I think the issue of all the transnational partners coming to Singapore is not just an LGBT problem because he was straight couples have so much challenges. So until the government sees that our relationship is just like anybody else. I'm not the only one who's going to leave. Laurindo is not going to leave so many of us. Some of us have already left. So that's a challenge. But I think Lorena is also talking about this idea that we did, right?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:20:08] Yeah. Yeah. So so so, Jean, just to help our audience understand. And then also before we get to that, thank you for for letting us know about your or your relationship and your partner in the United States. I hope she's OK. Despite the protests. How is she?

Jean Chong: [00:20:24] This is OK. Just protest every day, so.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:20:27] Right. Right. I mean, and I'm just curious in in your kind of discussions about where the next steps as well. I mean, you've also got a situation that's, you know, very uncertain in the United States. Have you discussed where your destination together would be? Because there's also question marks about America right now. Right.

Jean Chong: [00:20:49] Well, I mean, America not a perfect place, but at least we can be together in the same place permanently. I mean, for her to come here to get a job, everything is precarious. Like what Laurindo is doing. He's going in and out of immigration. I know they will. We start such a struggle. Of so so essentially moving America's. Just an easier option because they have gay marriage, legal protection. So, yeah, I don't think there's any choice in that to be, to be honest. Okay.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:24] Thank you. Thank you for that. So let's find out a little bit more about what you've learned with your survey. But before we get to that, can you help our listeners know, learn a little bit about the organization?

Jean Chong: [00:21:36] Basically Sayoni is like, we started 2006 is mostly queer women let but a lot of all we advocacy and research is centred around. If there's 377A and some a but it's impacting everybody else, like I mean, the theory kind of like if you discriminate against a minority like gay men, everybody else does escape scot free. So so that's that's basically what we do. Research and advocacy. Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:09] Okay, great. And what have you learned in this survey that you've done around the pandemic?

Jean Chong: [00:22:13] I mean, I think just a couple weeks ago decided to run the survey, kind of looking at what everybody is doing. So we said, hey, what's happening to the entire LGBT community? So he did a quick survey try to file and some of the results online. Quite shocking. Of all, 64 percent of the respondents, there are about 500 respondents say that the struggling with mental health. Forty seven point three. Talk to us about struggle with social isolation and being unable to accessible systems. And then one in five talks about domestic violence. And then another twenty percent wanted to talk about why they are not able to access medical services like people who are suffering from HIV or they need counselling. So those seems to be not be able for that. So, I mean, then the question is, why is it so? Well, how is it different from the other communities? So essentially, one in five for domestic violence is very high. So what's the difference between LGBT people facing the domestic violence and maybe somebody else? So if a woman faced domestic violence, leaving the houses is entering a safe based right, the pub because you're leaving your perpetuator. But for LGBT people, the public space is a hostile space, too. So, yeah, actually, once you leave the house into a public space and leaving another house for space and very naturally, LGBT people have chosen families, like friends and support networks, they're very small. So you don't have the existing family structure and support that they have. So we've Covid means they're stuck at home. And then when you're stuck at home in a small HBD flat you have no privacy. It's very hard to call someone or. I mean you can text, but that's not quite enough as we are all talking about. So, I mean, that that that is the difference. And he escalates. That's why the mental health challenges are so high. Many of them talk about thoughts of suicide, depression. And and it's quite concerning so, at least for us.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:24:33] I want to pick up on what you mentioned there about the chosen family, because, you know, that is very much a coping mechanism for anyone who has been either kicked out of home. Or they may be at home, and in any other circumstances, they're they're either isolated or marginalised or the family just won't recognise or acknowledge that part of their life. So chosen families are then so important. But we are in a situation now where people are being, you know, isolation is being defined by household and family units. And all of a sudden you're not able to do that. How are how are people coping?

Jean Chong: [00:25:10] I think there's so much of that lately. Recently did a webinar, one of our speakers, we could see the domestic violence happening right in front of us. So a lot of people will say, oh, you know, you can find a corner in your house, you can hide somewhere. But the thing about domestic violence is that he's very intrusive. And the perpetrator will actively try to control you or abuse you in various ways. So I think a lot of people are not coping so well. But like but of course, you feel very privileged to live in that because of your family is a sad thing then this is a totally different story. But I think most of us struggle with family acceptance. There's a big thing here. So, yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:25:56] And how about the existing, I guess, social safety nets that are available. Because, you know, as you said, you made a comparison between domestic violence for non LGBT individuals. That is also happening right at this time as well. But there are crisis hotlines, there are shelters, there are mental health service providers also providing support for people who are struggling during these times. So what have been the experience of LGBT or try to get help from the existing social services that are available?

Jean Chong: [00:26:29] Yeah. I think currently we are building a list. And then the list is so small because most of the service providers, in Singapore does not have sensitises entry. They're not up to the capacity. So a lot of times we don't refer people to them. Because I mean, the idea about domestic violence for LGBT people is you're not being accepted right. Then if you go to a social worker that doesn't use the right language and doesn't understand or ignore the identity. This is the second kind of trauma. So we'll rate picky about who we refer to. How far? I'm sorry to say. Social workers and counsellors are not well-trained. There's no push to train them. So that that support network is small. But of course the LGBT community has some services that we're trying to like fill in the gap. But it's not enough.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:27:26] You know, so so part and parcel of the work that you're doing now is not just the survey, but also to provide some assistance. Right. So I saw you made an announcement this week about a fundraising initiative. Can you tell our audience a little bit about that?

Jean Chong: [00:27:41] In response, the survey, we started a relief and resilience fund for the LGBT community. So some of the funding, I mean, people can apply for it. Different components. One is that we'll provide counselling for you. We will provide support groups. And then another component is that for people who need small car cash grants, maybe just to get by all for you to get a job and buy food. So that's some of the things that we're trying to do.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:28:15] And how long is the campaign going for?

Jean Chong: [00:28:19] Well, we just open the application process. Then we realise the application fall because there are so many of them that we kind of extend it indefinitely. So the more we can. The more money we can raise means we can help more people.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:28:34] Ok. So you're actively fundraising now? Is that right?

Jean Chong: [00:28:37] That's right.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:28:38] Okay, cool. All right. So if you're listening, if you want to help the community and provide some assistance during these times of crisis, then check out the show page and find out a little bit more about Sayoni's fundraising initiative for Covid 19.

Petrina Kow: [00:28:53] Yeah. Thank you for that, Jean. I'm so glad to hear that there's there's going to be this platform for you to help them. Now, I'd like to invite into the show an old friend of mine. Candice, welcome to the show. She's also our artist in residents.

Candice De Rozario: [00:29:11] Don't say old. Please don't say old.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:16] I did a show together many years ago. Good God. I don't even. Was it seven, eight years ago? Maybe.

Candice De Rozario: [00:29:23] It was 2012.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:24] 2012. Good Lord. Of eight years ago. Sometimes it would be the dressing rooms talking about my, you know, live dating and all that. And I know you're single at the moment. Is that correct?

Candice De Rozario: [00:29:35] Uh huh.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:35] I would like to ask you if you'd love to share what it's been like for you to be. I mean, we were just talking at all about relationships and being with your loved ones that I was thinking about people who were single or living alone. Right. And, you know, normally you do you have you're single alone. Maybe you'd hang out with friends or you would date, you know, go out for dates. But now during the lockdown, you know, well, you're not supposed to go anywhere at all. And you've got nobody in the house. Like, what's that been like for you?

Candice De Rozario: [00:30:06] So I have a confession to make. I am an introvert. Honestly, it's funny because as soon as the prime minister made the announcement, I thought, oh, I'm going to have to do this and go do that. And then I realized, you know, I don't really need to make any changes to my lifestyle whatsoever. The only difference that I can't, you know, go for supper with my friends who live nearby or anything like that. As far as how difficult it's been. I don't really feel a struggle in that sense. I feel more of a struggle work wise. Not so much socially. I am renting a space. I don't live alone. I am renting a space. So I have flatmates. So I'm not as isolated as some people might be. Yeah, it just seemed for a while like everything was happening at once. You know, my helper who helps helps me with my dad. She lives with my dad and looks after him. Her work permit was expiring. And, you know, so having to go through that kind of process and everything remotely, she has to take like some sort of medical check ups and all that. None of the doctors were doing it and they were telling or say you can't do that until after the circuit breaker is over. There's all that stress and panic and with my dad as well. There's been some stuff going on. I'm not going to go into details. But, yeah, he's also getting older. He's also facing some health issues. A couple of times I actually had to, like, go to the house and deal with emergencies and literally like a. Two weeks later, we went into lockdown. And so there's been that kind of worry there about what's happening on that side. And I can't even go to see him. I just know I could. No, I can. But at the time, it was, oh, my God, what is happening you know?

Petrina Kow: [00:32:05] Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think there's so many facets to our lives that sort of suddenly gets amplified. Right. In a period like that when when suddenly your movements are so restricted. So I suppose dating wasn't up there on your list.

Candice De Rozario: [00:32:20] I have to confess, when you asked me to do this show, I was like, do I have anything to talk about or not? Because dating did not even come into the picture right now, honestly, an edge. And I mean, yeah, I'm a single person. I've been single for a long time, but I guess I've gotten used to it. I still you know, it is still on my list of priorities. I still would like to find a partner at some point that I can spend my life with. So I haven't completely forgotten about it. If I can't even meet my family and friends is no way I'm gonna go meet someone completely new. A lot of my dates have come from the Internet, from dating apps, and I always, like I have had experiences where you talk to a person and you just talk and talk and talk and talk and you think you'll get along and then you meet and there's nothing there. It's absolutely the worst thing that can happen on a date is you have nothing to talk about.

Petrina Kow: [00:33:20] So that's so interesting because somehow it's like people appear a lot more attractive online.

Candice De Rozario: [00:33:28] Yeah, there's always a certain level of fantasy online, you know, because I've had so many experiences like that. I made a rule a couple of years ago where even if I meet someone online and they seem nice, I always try to meet them in person A.S.A.P.. I'm sorry, I'm not getting any younger. I'm not a spring chicken, you know,

Petrina Kow: [00:33:51] It's like, are you, are you this, this, this and this. And this.

Candice De Rozario: [00:33:55] Yeah, I have a list, you know.

Petrina Kow: [00:33:57] Tick, tick, tick, tick. Yes. Yeah.

Candice De Rozario: [00:33:59] Trumps supporters need not apply that sort of thing. I just don't I don't like to waste time. I don't have the time to waste. I still have hope that one day I can be a mother, you know. So. I think what was sad was that it became a numbers game after a while, and so I kind of got tired of it after a while of doing that. So in terms of. Online dating or any kind of dating, as a matter of fact. Yeah, I've I've been very on and off about it. I have to confess, I've been single for seven years now. The first couple of years, of course, was dealing with the breakup. That was quite difficult because it was a very, very long relationship. We were never married, but we were together for 10 years. I'm very, very glad to say that he is still in my life as one of my best friends. I tell I tell everyone this. You know, it's if if he's a wonderful person, he's a wonderful person. And you may not be romantically compatible, but why give up? All the more important things about that. I trust him implicitly. And I know he's got my back and I hope he knows that I've got his.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:22] He knows now.

Candice De Rozario: [00:35:23] Yeah. I should hope so. No, I have I have I have flat out told him that before. And we still talk. I mean, he's he's seeing someone but. But I do occasionally try to at least have dinner or lunch or dinner with him, you know, just to catch up as friends. I think when someone has been in your life for that long, they become family regardless of what your current status is.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:48] I mean, it's so interesting, Candice. You're talking about, you know, all the various sort of permutations of the relationships. And and I was just thinking about how, you know, dating has sort of evolved. Right. And I mean, I met my husband the old fashioned way through friends or in a workplace, you know, that kind of thing. So I. And I also distinctly remember my best friends meeting their husbands on, you know, in the earlier days, like Web sites, like match dot com, you know, and things like that. And it was this kind of like when you met a guy on a dating site. It was like such a new idea. It was like eeee, can or not, you know, like even then I was really like couple of years married, had my kids. And I was just wondering is is even possible. But it's kind of like it's it's become this thing now that it seems to be the only way to meet people now.

Candice De Rozario: [00:36:40] So it's normal now. So, I mean, it's not it's not true. Oh, yeah. No, I wouldn't say it's the only way. I would say it's one of the easier ways. Yeah. And in fact, I think that I think I don't I don't know the exact that this thing, but I've heard it's like one in four couples now have met on the Internet.

Petrina Kow: [00:37:02] Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, this is where I'd love to sort of throw it open to everybody because we've all had dating histories. And I was just talking to another old married couple, friend, and he I think we missed out lah. He missed out this whole, like, fun online dating like process. And I remember, like several years ago, I actually created a profile on Match. This is when I was happily married with two kids. And I just for the sake of it, experimentation, just wanted to know what it's like to kind of scroll through and see what's out there and like who would like me to. It's really random. I was just being curious.But.

Candice De Rozario: [00:37:40] If if if your listeners could see me now I'm rolling my eyes.

Petrina Kow: [00:37:45] I'm sure I just. But it was just such a curiosity for me because it just sounds like so much fun yet.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:37:53] I mean, I'm hearing stories and it's such a a new, you know, way because for me, in terms of inclusivity. Right. I feel like, you know, in a way we were so limited to geography to to your own little tribe and village. Right. Previously and who you know. So now now it kind of like throws it open. You could literally have your list and and have the people that would kind of filtered somebody's filter out that lists for you and then have an algorithm. Find those people for who.

Candice De Rozario: [00:38:25] I just have to say, though, Internet dating has really been I mean, speaking of inclusive, it's really been a boon for the LGBT community for sure. You know, where I mean, you know, two of the other people on this panel probably can can speak to that better than I can. Yeah, but. But as far as I understand, it's really been so much easier for gay people to meet other gay people with dating apps. And so.

Petrina Kow: [00:38:54] Jean, is this. I mean, did you do you have any stories for that?

Jean Chong: [00:39:00] I think traditionally the Internet has been a refuge for us. So and you started in the 90s way the gay community as a first group of people that utilise the Internet because it's anonymous, it protects us. So. Well, that's why a lot of LGBT people are quite tech savvy, because, you know, of the origin of it so.

Petrina Kow: [00:39:24] Have you tried online dating before, Shuyi?

Shuyi Ching: [00:39:26] Not quite. I never really enjoyed the online interactions much. Think I'm an introvert online? I don't know. I tend to not comment or not seek out interactions online.

Petrina Kow: [00:39:43] No, I know what you mean it's it's. I've had a very fraught relationship with social media as well in that I don't know, I don't know how to present myself or I don't know if I say certain things, will that be misconstrued? And they should I be saying these things? And, you know, if I say this with somebody misread me because you can't see my face and I like to be funny and sarcastic and, you know, you might miss, you know, misunderstand that type of thing. So absolutely. I feel like, you know, there's this. I probably won't do very well online dating if.

Candice De Rozario: [00:40:19] I go through phases as well, where I think I'm so tired of this online thing, why can't I meet someone nice in real life? Like, why can't I meet someone at work or why can't I meet someone? I don't know. Archery class. I've done that. I've done I've done the whole you know, how they advise you when you're single. You want to meet people, you go to the classes, right? Yeah, I've done that.

Petrina Kow: [00:40:41] You know, I remember yeah.

Candice De Rozario: [00:40:43] I have not met a single interesting person for any.

Petrina Kow: [00:40:46] Maybe maybe not archery, maybe not archery or something else.

Candice De Rozario: [00:40:51] Oh, but I've done it all. I've done the language classes. I've done the psychology, I've done the sports, all of it. I've got it all. The only thing I haven't tried it is social dance. So maybe that's where I should go.

Petrina Kow: [00:41:04] I do remember when I first joined Mediacorp as a very young person and, you know, starting out in the media industry is all very exciting. And then very soon I realised, oh my God, all the guys here are either married or gay. And I'm like, oh, okay, maybe not then. And it's all very incestuous or or they have dated all the other deejays in this building. So I'm like, nah.

Candice De Rozario: [00:41:27] You don't want to go there.

Petrina Kow: [00:41:30] So I don't know. What. What do you think Laurindo like?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:41:33] Yeah. I mean, what I find interesting about where this conversation is, has headed is we we we talked about how online dating has been normalised. I mean, for the LGBT community, it's been our for four decades now. But but I guess more mainstream. It's definitely become less stigmatised these days. And I think it's interesting that over the course of this series, you've just been talking about how technology has really changed the game in the way that we approach things, whether it's education or work or other aspects of our lives. And I'm curious what this means, because if we're talking about work or education or other or health, you know, there's been technology has enabled things to continue. And yet we're in a situation now where we have to be socially distant. We're relying on technology. But it hasn't necessarily been a benefit for relationships or has it? I mean, I'm just curious. This is an open question for for the panel. I mean, there are definitely limitations for what technology can do to help us tend to our relationships. But what have been some of the surprising things that have come out of the way that we see our relationships in a time when we have to be distant from the people that we love?

Petrina Kow: [00:42:49] Well, I mean, I I've noticed this is not about relationships in a love sense, but I've just observed it with my son. I mean, he's 13 and he hasn't seen his friends, like in three months. And since he started this sort of smaller school, his his classmates are other human beings around his age that he has seen. And then after school, he would skateboard, so he would see other boys and girls around that age. But for the last three months, he's just seen the three of us, mom, dad and sis. And that's it. Like he has not seen other, you know, social. There's no other social life. And and I'm observing him and wondering, oh, I think this is not quite natural. Like maybe you should play with other kids your age and that type of thing, because it's definitely with with kids who are much younger. I think play dates and, you know, being able to interact with a kid, you know, friends and all of that was a big deal in terms of their mental health and social skills. But and I looked at him and he he seems to be thriving like he doesn't have any hankering or he doesn't want, like, let you do what it is. He a franchise organise, PS4 playdate with Brandon. And then. And then. And he's like not need. You need to talk to your friends. He's like, no, you know, it was like very. So I I'm also curious about that because I'm wondering like. But my I live in a houseful of introverts and they're all very happy now. Like they're so happy. They sleep, they wake up, they play their games and they, you know, they sleep again just like and occasionally I'm like, hello, hello. Can you go and sun yourself? Like, can you go outside? And so I had to force myself to go out and walk in the sun. So it's it's been an interesting time watching different people react to that, because I think for introverts, they've taken to to the circuit breaker quite easily. And then for those who are obviously leaning very, very active lives, who are very sporty or needing the social interactions, have have found it very difficult. But even then, I think they've pivoted and found ways to have Zoom parties and zoom this and that, you know, found ways to connect. So I don't know. What's the the answer to that? I don't know. What is the effect of it also? I mean, I guess depending on how long more we have to go, will we see like maybe patterns setting in which may or may not be helpful? I don't know.

Candice De Rozario: [00:45:24] I think it might. I think it might it might in some sense, go back to one of Shuyi's original points about your love languages. I mean, everyone has some combination of. I think there are five. But you always have one or two primary ones. And I think if your primary love language is not a physical enough language, you probably can't deal with this sort of thing. That's a because you you you feel loved from from other things. You feel love from somebody helping you out, for example. I think I think that's part of acts of service and all. You feel loved from quality time, which. Totally. Having a Zoom meeting with your friends, you know, where you're all just kind of chatting and like you're in your own space, but you're eating and drinking together. You can absolutely feel love from that as well. You know, but I think it's it's the people who have a very physical love language that are having the hardest time. I believe. I believe.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:46:25] Thank you for that. And I think we've heard a lot about, you know, chosen families, about love languages, about how the pandemic has really forced us to prioritise our relationships and also created some some problems in how we're tending to them as well, but also of open some other opportunities. And I think we want to kind of change gears in the show and kind of think about some solutions in some ways that we would want a post pandemic world to look like. And so in every episode, we ask our guests to imagine that they've been bestowed with a magical wand. And what this wand helps you do is change the way that societies work. And so imagine that you've been given this wand and you are going to change the way that the world works after the pandemic. What is one thing that you would do to make the world more inclusive after the pandemic? Let's start with you Shu.

Shuyi Ching: [00:47:27] Wow. There are so many things I want to do with his magic wand. I actually had a conversation with my fiancee and a few friends about, you know, how it is a bit it is kind of scary to kind of see what's going to happen after, you know, Covid and everything that's happening right now. And I think the biggest thing that I would want. Is empathy, I guess, empathy in people and for people to have empathy and to experience empathy and to give empathy towards, you know, be it, you know, people there in the LGBTQ community or people of a different race or people come from a different culture or a.. Different of the people of a different class than than you. I think, you know, with just a bit of empathy, we can get so much further. We can do so many things. We can understand so many things. And hence. We don't need all these, you know, violence or things that are happening to many, many groups of people right now. And I think, you know, watching all this happening right now, I it does kind of affect me personally. Like I see it every day on my social media feeds. And I just wish that, you know, there's something that we could do. And I think empathy, it's what I would want everybody to kind of have.

Shuyi Ching: [00:49:09] I love how you you raised that. I mean, if what's interesting about the pandemic is that on one hand, it's kind of forced everyone to really think beyond just themselves, right. In the way that we've ended social distancing. But at the same time, we're also got a situation where a lot of people are who have suffered from marginalisation for four generations, for hundreds of years. I've have, you know, are fed up with having their their lives and their struggles being pushed to the side. And they are, you know, asking the world to stand in solidarity with them and be part of a concerted push to make sure that this doesn't happen again. So I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Shuyi Ching: [00:49:56] We actually I was watching actually there was a conversation by SIFA, which is the Singapore International Festival of the Arts, with M Bogart. And she didn't mention about being present about SOTS, which is a term for it for actors or performers. But the biggest thing that I got away from the talk is that how everybody should. Yeah. Have. Be present, too, to be able to ready to give and and from that with you know, when you have open arms here but you're able to receive, receive and people is able to receive you. So there won't be misunderstandings. There will be dialogue, communication between two people. And just by that, you know, you're you're open to so many different things.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:50:49] So empathy and finding a way for people to be fully present and showing up for others. Thank you so much. How about you, Jean? What would you use your magic wand for?

Jean Chong: [00:51:00] I think the title of this show will be inclusive. Be inclusive. By showing your allyship when you see discrimination or inequality happening. Be inclusive in policies and laws. Not what we have now. So many different sectors of people are not included. Be inclusive in empathy, which is what Shu was talking about. I think essentially a lot of things, what a lot of activist or artists are trying to do is to push this point about being inclusive. But not just talking about it, but it needs to come with action as well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:51:43] I want to pick up on that because there have been you know, inclusion is such a buzz word, right? I mean, we've as advocates, as activists, we've been talking about it for a long time. But for it to be part of a national conversation, it's definitely much more on the surface in the last couple of years. And yet I haven't met a single person who says I don't want to be inclusion, there are exceptions, of course. But by and large, if you speak to a person, they'll generally say, yes, I want to be inclusive, but I don't know how. And what would you say to that, Jean? I mean, you know, it's wonderful to have a magic wand, but you still got the reality of teaching people the How so, so what's your take on that?

Jean Chong: [00:52:25] I mean, from experience, I think conversation helps. So and also, I mean, LGBT people need to stand up and be noticed. Right. So that's what Pink Dot is doing and doing really well. So that's one. But but also all allies, they need to speak up for us, too. I think that's so important. Over the ten years I've seen from just one or two allies that really public, too, so many of their life as well. Public. I mean, this this I mean, I don't think we can't achieve LGBT equality we do it alone. So we need all families and friends and and also recognised all lives are intertwined together. So if a group people are being discriminated by the state, if we don't speak up eventually. I mean, eventually it will roll over to everybody else. So I think that's something that we need to pay attention to. And how do we support each other even more intersectional? We I know it sounds very vague. But they'll be practical things you can do stand up for someone who who's facing racist comments, then out for someone who's facing homophobic comments. Then tell this tell the State that what they are doing is not right. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. So this very small baby step that we can all take.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:53:51] Thank you. So the first step to being inclusive is allyship. Thank you so much, Jean.

Petrina Kow: [00:53:55] Yeah. Yeah. And then last but not least, Candice, what would you do with your magic wand?

Candice De Rozario: [00:54:04] It's pretty much being covered by both Shu and Jean already. Definitely empathy and conversation. I don't think the difficult conversations are ever gonna go away, but I think we need a better way to have them. We need to teach people that differences are always going to be there. But people need to learn how to have those conversations without I guess without coming to blows, you know, be it verbally or physically even. Yeah, people need. I mean, those conversations need to happen, but they need to. People need to know how to have them civilly.

Petrina Kow: [00:54:43] Thank you for that. I was I was reading I was listening to a podcast actually by Brene Brown, and she was talking to, I think, black activists called Austin Channing Brown. And of course, there's a lot of conversation now going on with the black community about being anti-racist. Right. This whole idea of what is it to be anti-racist. And I like that she said being anti-racist just is, you know, teaching humans how to be better humans to other humans, you know? And I mean, I think that just sort of very beautifully encapsulates everything that we've all said here today. That I think the work never stops. And then I think in any sort of like a circle or field that we're there, we're looking at it really does sort of, you know, fall on the shoulders of the people who are in power or who have access to power and have, you know, systems of change that we can figure out if. Because it all kind of comes back to the systems. Right. And and and the structures that are in place. And so much of it is being sort of so, so entrenched and so many people's sort of like home livelihoods and interests, special interests are stuck in those systems. And it would take every one of us, I think, to really sort of shake the foundations to to grow something new. And I think it's been inspiring watching the Black Lives Matter movement and how, you know, in a week of sort of massive ground up action that they're able to have, you know, a whole state relook their police department, you know, something that's been going on for so long. So I think, you know, it it I mean, I think we think about in Singapore, it's like, oh, what is the what is the relevance? We're so far away. But I think it does it does help us to see that there is hope that there is a way of sort of coming together and with our collective voices raising raising it up to raise the voices of the people who can't be heard as much, you know. So I thank you all so much for being here and for sharing your thoughts with us. Ching Shuyi, Jean Chong, Candice De Rosario, and of course, you as well. Laurindo Garcia for so bravely stepping forward to share your story. Before we go to Candice, who will be singing us a ballad from her band. And if you know this, but Candice has a metal band called Sangriento,

Candice De Rozario: [00:57:28] If you allow me to time, I will talk a little bit about that.

Petrina Kow: [00:57:31] Now I will. We'll come back to you in a minute.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:57:33] Before we do that just a little bit, just to let our audience know that if you would like to find out a little bit more about our guests and their work, make sure you check out the Inclusively website for details. Also, follow us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or YouTube, and you'll be notified when new episodes are out. And please remember to like this podcast and submit a review. We really welcome your feedback to help us improve.

Petrina Kow: [00:57:55] Yes. So, Candice, you've picked a song from your album Blood Pact. And the title of your band is called Sangriento. Could you tell us a little bit about the song and why you chose to share this one with us?

Candice De Rozario: [00:58:10] There actually needs to be some backstory to this. OK. So like, yeah, the band is called Sangriento. I know the name sounds like we play latin jazz, but it's actually symphonic metal, although you wouldn't be able to tell from the song. So please do check out the rest of the album if you can. This is the only ballad on the album. I did not compose it. I had a little I had a little hand in writing the lyrics, but I didn't actually compose this song. So the band is there's five of us. Khan, Rain, Nick and Crystal. They are the true geniuses behind the music. I just basically open my mouth and make loud noises. If you need to find us, we're on Facebook or Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, all that good stuff as some Oriental S.G.. So a little bit of background context about the album. As Petrina mentioned, it's called Blood Pact, and you can find it on Spotify, Bandcamp, Apple Music and other major streaming services. So this is a concept album. Our guitarist. He basically created this world. You wrote a story. You created this world where magic and technology exist side by side. But there's been like a thousand year war that's been going on between them. So concurrently with the album, because we are such nerds, we released a limited hard copy, a run of a comic book of that story, which was actually drawn by our drummer, Crystal. And each chapter of the book correlates to one song on the album. Bad news for you guys. Good news for us. The book is sold out. But we are planning a rerelease either in hard copy or online. Hopefully cross fingers hopefully not too far in the future. The song is called Leaving You Behind and without giving away too many spoilers in the original context of the album there is a character who basically chooses to, shall we say, give up their life force and their magic so that another character can take that magic into themselves and be strong enough to defeat the bad guys and see the world as you do. So the song happens at that moment, but as with any song. Or play or any art form, really. It's always open to the audience's interpretation. Now, even for myself, like when I first read the original draft of the lyrics, I thought it was a breakup song. You know, honestly, it's it's real bittersweet. And I think it says, hey, look, you know, whatever the reasons may be, I have my own journey. You have your own path to walk. And I wish you love. I wish you happiness. And please take that. And literally, there's a lyric that goes, you know, like the cosmos, like the cosmos with your love and your joy, because you're amazing. But unfortunately, where I'm going. I can't take you with me. And, yeah, it hurts. It hurts like bleep. It hurts like blazes. But we both know that this is for the best for both of us. So coming back, coming back to this very difficult time for a lot of people coming back to pandemic in this time of Covid, you know, people are having to make some really difficult. Absolutely heart wrenching sacrifices for the greater good. I mean, thousands and thousands upon thousands of people all over the world are having to die alone. They can't even talk to their loved ones online because when you go into respiratory failure, they intubate you. So your speech is taken away. Families cannot visit their dying loved ones. And even for us who are clinically well, you know, we've literally spent an entire podcast talking about it, but we are literally saving the world by staying home. And that means bearing. You know, just enduring the pain of being isolated from your friends, your families in, you know, for some people. Cases like Shuyi's. Even their significant others for an extended time. And if you're a health care worker, multiply all that by one thousand. You know, again, it hurts. But you do it. You leave them behind because you know, it's the right thing to do. Being a superhero is a lonely job, you know, but you put on the mask and you distance yourself from society because that's what superheroes do.

Petrina Kow: [01:02:47] So here it is, ladies and gentlemen, the band, Sangriento.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:02:51] And that's our show. I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [01:02:52] And I'm Petrina Kow. Thank you all so much for joining us.

Migrant workers carry a disproportionate burden of Covid 19 infections. The conditions of workers in construction and manufacturing industries have grabbing international headlines. But the plight of Asia's foreign domestic workers has largely remained invisible. In this episode Petrina and Laurindo shed light on the systemic migrant labour issues that Covid 19 has helped to illuminate with guests Eni Lestari Andayani Adi - chairperson of the International Migrants Alliance, Ramasamy Madhavan - filmmaker of $alary Days, Bhing Navato - helpdesk volunteer for HOME and Eli Nur Fadilah - winner of Migrant Worker Storytelling Competition 2018.

*****

TRANSCRIPT

Petrina Kow: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome another episode of Inclusively, in the series, we're asking, how has the pandemic changed people's lives and what lessons have we learned that could make a post pandemic world more inclusive? I'm your host Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:13] And I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:14] Today, we shine the spotlight on migrant workers. Now, I think in Singapore, this has been one of the biggest issues that have come up for us in the last few months. When Covid hit Singapore and I think, you know, looking at it as a whole now, it I mean, I'm I'm not sure I'm right in saying and I'm glad, but I'm really, in a way, sort of grateful that the situation that we've seen in Singapore has allowed us to really sort of sit up and pay attention to the people who are most vulnerable right here in Singapore.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:52] From a personal perspective, this this conversation is coming at a time when, at least globally, there is much more heightened consciousness about who are most vulnerable during the pandemic. We've got protests in the United States, in the UK, in Australia that are really exposing systematic racism that is contributing to two people getting sick and not having what they need to to to be able to survive the pandemic. And at the same time, we're also at least very aware that for a migrant, if you're a migrant in many places, it's very difficult for you to stand up and to make your voice heard because you're oftentimes you are a guest in the in the country. Your situation about your your ability to stay and integrate into side into society is also a challenge as well. And so it makes it very difficult for for migrant workers, for for migrants as a whole to be part of this process and trying to work work out some of the challenges and the problems in these systems. So I'm really excited that we've got a chance to talk through some of these issues with a fantastic panel today who one of our guests is Ali Noor Fadhila. She's a domestic worker in Singapore from Indonesia. She's also a volunteer with an Invisible Hands Singapore and a winner of the migrant storytelling competition here. Welcome to the show, Eli. She's also our artist in residence today, and she'll be offering us a poem later on in the show. So please stay with us. Also joining us is , who is an engineer from India who works here in Singapore's construction industry and Singapore. And Madhavan was also a director of a short film called Salary Days as well, which has gotten a lot of people talking and really gaining a greater understanding of the situation for construction workers here in Singapore. So welcome to you to Madhavan.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:53] And we also joining us on the show we have been Novato, who's a volunteer here who works in one of the crisis hotlines for the Humanitarian Organization for Migrant Economics, also known as Home. And she will also be offering her perspective. And she's also been a foreign domestic worker, here in Singapore for many, many years. Plus, we're also very fortunate to have Eni Lestari Andayani Adi joining us from Hong Kong. Any is the founder of the Association of Indonesian Migrant Workers and the chairperson of the International Migrants Alliance. Welcome, everybody.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:28] So Eni let's start with you. Thank you for joining us from Hong Kong today. And they know Sunday's are a very busy day for you, but I'd love to just find out how you are. I mean, tell us how where are you joining us right at this moment?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:03:45] Well, yeah, I'd like to thank both of you for inviting me to join the discussion. Really, in the past months, we have been trying to make our voices visible in the discussion of Covid 19, as you know, that the migrant workers are really being put sidelined. And until that is a big case in Malaysia or maybe in Singapore, then our stories would never been found in the news. So for me, the Covid 19 has been very challenging. Honestly, it changed everything. Our way of life. Every day, you know, like you have to limit your time to go out personally because I'm also a domestic worker here so I can't go too much outside. And that's mean I have to work a lot from the house. I can we can not organised now. We can't not gather together. You know, in Hong Kong at least we have weekly holiday right. So Sunday domestic work would have gathered in the park, under the bridge or every, you know, every public spaces. But now, since the Covid 19 line been it was like a gone. It was disbursed. With the Hong Kong imposing social distancing by 4. Now by 8. That means that even if you have 20 members, you can not get together. So that's really becoming a big challenge for us now. And and in the past three months, there have been other major issues. And yet our issue now is to put a lot of domestic workers about different policies. That has been changed. Like for example immigration, with Covid 19, you know, you don't have to go out to extend your visa. You can renew it in Hong Kong. But we can not do this. The problem is because we can't not even meet them regularly. So now we are changing our style of using social media or Facebook to send our news. So we organise a weekly community fact community on this issue. With me, I'm still okay. My employer is doing good. And he really have a lot of understanding it. Just give me a lot of warning about, you know, being clean and careful, you know, you know, like wearing the mask all the time which is mandatory. But he doesn't impose any unnecessary requirements.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:09] It sounded like as a well, number one, it's great that you've got an understanding and supportive employer that enables you to do all this other work. But at the same time, as an organization, you've had to learn very fast how to change the way that you're delivering services as well and doing a lot of this online. And so you were you were saying to me before before we joined today's show that normally on a Sunday you would be out in the park. Right. So so how does that work within the context of social distancing? So you're still able to be out there. But so how does that work?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:06:47] You know, one of the funny part of this. You know I would like to go to the negative consequences first. Since the Covid 19, a lot of employers are getting, they are too afraid to even let the domestic workers to go out. They said that, you know, you might bring virus to my house. So that even though they workers us not to go out, even on Sunday, and you can imagine after six days a week being confined in the house, that's the only day that you can breathe. You know, you've meet with friends. You can go to the church, you can go to the mosque. And this is even denied. So in our survey maybe even found out 50 percent of the domestic workers. We have 400000 domestic workers in Hong Kong. Half of them were actually denied holiday. So some even two months without holiday. So that's one of the consequences. The second is those with holiday. They have a shorter time, shorter hours. You know, they usually go out by 10:00, 11:00. And they have to come back by 5:00. So even our own members we cannot meet them, you know, so. And a lot of them are forced to stay, you know, within the employer premises, like the park nearby employers your house so they don't have to travel that far. And then they don't have to consume so much time. So that means even the half a day off, as organised, said I can meet them. So it's getting so challenging for us to even meeting our own members. So what we do not. Even when you can get together, you have to remember all the time, sit by for sit by 4 and don't get together sometime. You forgot. And then you can not eat, usually the Indonesian, I'm sure in other nationalities, especially in South East and South Asian, we eat my hand, right. We we like to share. And then I would tell everyone don't eat by hand, you know eat by spoon, something like that. So it's kind of education, you know. It's the other side of that, the positive side. It's also an education about hygiene that the people, you know, I mean, not that I'm not clean, but sometimes we don't mind all this hygiene issue. But this is the time that you have to be clean. So now to do organising, the way we do it is we actually group our leaders or our officer said into small group, usually three through four people. And this four people are the one going around different places in Hong Kong, you know, meeting different people, giving away flyers like. Because the problem also the information we have, Covid 19 and other policy are in English and Chinese. So that translated to Urdu to translate it to Thai or Indonesian. Even Filipino, not everyone can really understand what it means. Right. So as organiser, you are being challenged to even translate that into your own language, putting it very simple, direct to the point and print in it. And unfortunately, I can say the additional funding for this kind of program. We are the one raising the money, talking to our different supporter to give us money so we can bring in thousand thousand of this information. So one of the gap that I really find in this Covid 19 is a gap in information. We do not know what is going to happen. Yeah. And a lot of our members, we they learn about Covid 19 through the employer because the employee is watching the media, you know, and they don't understand what, you know, in Chinese or Cantonese. So it's the employee who tell them. Or you don't go out. You only stay by four. They learn it from the employer. You know, it's this is very unfortunate. So we have been very critical to Hong Kong Government for putting us aside. Now we are being blamed whenever we gather more than four. They say that you don't follow the rule. How can you even follow the rule? We don't understand the rule. So that's one of the biggest gap in terms of information. And the second issue is also there is no support in terms of mask, sanitiser, or even cash. We get nothing. So in our survey, we found out 35 percent of the domestic workers in Hong Kong were not given mask and sanitiser. So in the first two months of this Covid 19, you know what happened to us? We keep collecting donations of mask, sanitizer and we go around different park and places in Hong Kong to give away free mask. And this is something that the government has done. You know, it's just like it. Give us a double work. But that's how we try to cope up. I mean, the positive lesson of this Covid is really the lesson of solidarity. A lot of Hong Kong people who really care, they give us a box and box of mask and that they'll ask, please give it to your fellows because they know exactly many of us were not given. And then for us, we have to rely to the most leaders who are given holiday by employer without any condition. And that means out of 50 members that we have, we only rely on to 10 people. Something like that, you know. So our number is very small now. And you have to split them and put them into different places. So is that a lot of adjustment. Honestly, for me, I feel very exhausted. I feel more exhausted during this Covid 90 than before the Covid 19. And I'm sure everyone feels that even, you know, you don't have to be migrant domestic workers or migrant workers to be exhausted, but migrant workers, because we are left behind in any assistance. You have to work double, triple, just to raise the mass, sanitiser. And now when the government is given away cash to the Hong Kong people, including Hong Kong resident. Domestic workers, refugee community are not given at all. So, I mean, we spend more money, during Covid 19. You have to buy mask. You have to buy sanitiser. You have to buy food that will keep you healthy. But none of the cash is given to us. So that's the, you know, the setback of this.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:33] Thank you for sharing the situation in Hong Kong Eni. And I think that there's a lot of echoes with this experience here in Singapore and other cities and places in the region there. Please stay with us and we will be coming back to you in a moment. I do want to then invite Madhavan to join the conversation now. How are you Madhavan?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:12:54] Yes, I'm good.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:55] I got to know your work through the film that you made called Salary Days. So for our listeners who may not have seen it. Can you give us a bit of a. Just share a bit about what your film was about.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:13:06] Salary Days about the life of migrant workers in all over the world? I just take the concept from one of my poem about the migrant life. In his first month salary on the day what he do. How he tally the money for different expenses. He need to send money to family. To pay back agent fees. And also for the monthly food. And then mobile top-up. Then for groceries. Balance eight dollars in hand. Then he look for good food in some restaurants. After that, he decided to go for haircut rather than taking the food. Then for haircut seven dollar gone. Then balance one dollar in hand.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:13:54] That's right. So that's. That's really illustrates how very little money that a construction worker or migrant worker here has to live on after money is being sent back home where you're supporting your families back home. So I've got two questions for you. So, number one, what has been the response from form your film? And secondly, your film when it was released in April? And then what have you been observing since the film was released in relation to the pandemic?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:14:28] I received almost ninety nine percent positive feedback. Everyone supporting me. Many. Many bigger people in Singapore appreciate it. Art Science Museum contacted me and they are ready to share my short film in their webpage. It's Raining Coats founder Deepa contacted me. She also appreciated it. Many people appreciated through Facebook and YouTube comments. One or two people questioning me about that the film is not up to the level because of lack of technical items missed out. But they forgot to catch the story.

Petrina Kow: [00:15:23] Yes, they miss the point, isn't it?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:15:26] Yes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:15:27] There's always critics. Right. But it sounds like it's great. It's great that there's a overwhelming response, a good response,

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:15:33] As a film acting skill is a bit less. The technical part is a bit less. I don't want add music something. Because I want to take the raw footage. With the minimal resources, available resources. We. Me and my friends doing this film. Zakir was there and Say Peng is the main person whoo do this film. The main content is the what he film tells. They forgot to notice this.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:16:05] And since it was released. And as the situation the the you know, the situation for construction workers in Singapore has. Has gotten worse. You know, what were some of the things that you have observed amongst your your co-workers and your friends and how the how when what is the response that you've seen from from local. From the local stakeholders?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:16:30] From the local people, they also mention it's like my story. They commented like it's my story. And I also I send my you. My film link to Dubai friend. And he shared in the Facebook. Some of the Dubai friends, the calculated in KD, maybe the Dubai Dollar. The one guy calculated in how he spent. Kindly he left only 2 KD. The people who work in construction and also domestic worker also appreciated it. They also mention it. It's like. Our. My story. Thank you. Thank you.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:11] I mean, I think that's just. Yeah. I remember watching your film actually was the opening film for another and during the film festival last year, and it was really moving. So thank you very much for that, that film. And I personally thought I didn't need anything else. It didn't need to have fancy lighting or, you know, the point of it was, you know, and and I really felt for the guy when he looked at how much he had left and he decided, no, I think I need a shave and a haircut instead of, you know, having a fancy meal. Thank you so much, Madhavan, for that. I think to now bring on Bhing who she's been, somebody I really had the privilege of getting to know a couple of years ago when I organized the migrant workers storytelling competition. She's been a domestic worker here in Singapore for 25 years, and she's a single mother of three. A grandmother of seven, though. And you look at her, she just has this wonderful youthful beauty. She's also an active help desk volunteer to HOME, which is dedicated to supporting and empowering migrant workers who suffer abuse and exploitation here in Singapore. Welcome to the show Bhing. How are you?

Bhing Navato: [00:18:27] Hello. Yes. Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:31] So.

Bhing Navato: [00:18:31] Yeah I'm doing great.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:33] Wonderful. Maybe you can tell us perhaps first is your own your own personal experience with how, you know, the whole pandemic has affected the way your movements in the house are. Perhaps, you know, whether or not you've been allowed like off days and things like that. Just just your make your own experience for now.

Bhing Navato: [00:18:54] Yeah. You know, before this pandemic. We we move freely. Like my Sunday. Also, busy as always. Doing my volunteer, going to church, meeting up friends and doing my activities. So every every Sundays was like that for 25 years and suddenly Covid 19 happens. We were like, what will happen next? You know, we I'm I was even questioning myself. Like, when will this end? During the Covid 19 we're used to going out. Like full day being out of the house, but now we are stuck at home, you know, our rest day is at home now being with our employers. Which is good because we get to know them really well. We have conversations. But for me, it is a new. It is true that this is a new normal for everyone, even even for domestic workers like me, because we stop meeting friends, we stop going to church, we stop everything that we do. So it is something that really difficult for us because our work is at home. Six days a week. And normally the Sunday, the only time we can go out and do whatever you want to do. To run our errands. But now, even on Sundays, we just stay at home. That's why I always find the odd when when the Minister of Manpower will send messages before, you know, since March 21, I always remember that day because they started saying that domestic workers must stay home on their rest day. But they never even really think that many domestic workers don't have a place to live to take a risk, because not all of us have our own room. And many domestic workers here also like on their rest day, they need to work. Even with even, you know, without employers telling them. But because I think that is our instinct that since we're at home, we need to do something. I agree. I agree to that. I mean, even my friends are doing the same thing, too. Like, most of their have the most of their off days are on half days now. Because they need to do something. We cannot stay on our bed the whole day. It will give us headache.

Petrina Kow: [00:21:41] Yeah. It's kind of like if you're there, you're like, oh, I might as well just vacuum the floor or I might as well just fold the clothes. I know the feeling.

Bhing Navato: [00:21:49] So it will be like that. And and then be getting used to the routine, especially on the first month of the circuit breaker was really difficult because that time we are uncertain whether we can go out or not. I mean, we see people, we see locals and some other like not the domestic workers are outside or doing exercise, but because of the notice of the Ministry of Manpower that when our rest day we must be at home, we can do our errands. But after doing your errands, like sending money or buying your your essential things, you need you need to go back home. No need to meet up with friends or any other things. So that time I was uncertain. Like, can I go out for a walk? Can you know, can I just go for for exercise. That's why the time I wrote an article asking, like, are we allowed to exercise like the other people here in Singapore? So that was. Yeah, that was difficult. It changes a lot. It changes a lot because not only for my routine, but I think for many domestic workers here that their work has doubled. And I think there are more stressed, I think not only us, but also our employers are also stress because we're getting used to being. To seeing everyone at home all the time. So it wasn't easy.

Petrina Kow: [00:23:22] Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, we we just so sort of take for granted, you know, in in a in a way, I'm so glad to hear that your employer has been really understanding. But I'm I'm just not sure that this is the same for, I don't know, 80 to 90 percent of the domestic workers in Singapore where the employers are being very kind of strict about no, put it down, go and rest or watch TV or, you know, go out for a walk or something. You know, I think very often they would just sort of either leave you be if you want to do the work, you do it. Hey, I'm getting extra work for free. You know, I'm not paying you extra, you know, that type of thing. And it's a really fine line. So I feel like, um. Do you have any statistics or have you seen an increase rate in the number of calls for help or, you know, more distress calls from the domestic workers here in Singapore through to home?

Bhing Navato: [00:24:18] Yes, the calls have been increased like 20 to 25 percent. It is like a distress call. Like everyone. Most domestic workers will call because they if they ask for. Do we still have an off day? Are we allowed to go out? When can we go out? Are we allowed to go out with friends? Is it true that M0M said that we cannot go out? So I need to clarify with them and notice. That the notice said we have a rest day. It depends on your communicate and how you communicate with your employer. Like if employers say, can you work on your rest day and then they need to pay you, you know, when you work on that day. But but if you initiate to do the work at home, then I think it's fine because you feel like you're doing not doing anything. But there are many employers now that that. Mainly are expat, but mostly are locals. So it's fair to say that. But I receive a lot of calls that employers were saying that MOM said that you cannot go out. On your rest day you need to work because you're not allowed to go out. Then they will. When they asked me, I said that's not the notice. They said, you can go out. You can send money. Do your errands. But you need to come back. I mean, it's for your own safety. So I need to explain to them what this notice about. But then still, because their employer said so. So they will comply with that. Then they will just stay at home. I have one caller who showed me a picture of just one chair because she has no room. She sleeping in the living room. So Sunday morning, everybody's up and she has no place to go like. She asked to go for a walk. But the employer said no you cannot go out. What if you get the virus outside? So those are the things. So I explained to some people like how employers should allow their domestic workers to be outside, even for just a couple of hours, that they will use the time to call their family. They will talk freely. They can show like how how they feel, their emotions. You know, they can do that outside. Or they can call their friends, you know, at least for two hours. Just let them breathe. I mean, it is very important because I think our employers will feel the same thing, too. Right. So I have one call. I was very alerted into that. When she said she wants to commit suicide already because her her employer told her that I will treat you like a robot. So literally like you cannot rest, you're not allowed to talk to anyone. She used to have her phone, like, at night, 10:30 at night. And then the employer will take it back at 6:00 a.m. But the employer can see from the CCTV that she's spent like three hours on the phone at night. But how can she? Because that's the only time she can talk. So they started, you know, confiscating it again and give it to her like on weekends. But if she will make a mistake, they will not give back her phone. But finally, she ran away. Two Sundays ago. But because I was really worried that, you know, when she told me that I just want to die if I cannot go out, I just want to die. Yeah. So it is really. There are so many calls. It's why when when the news few weeks ago said that they only received like two calls during this call, it said, no, it was not like that. I received like ten calls. My other volunteer friends received more calls. And what about other NGOs? So we keep receiving calls. The problem with the, with the ministry, I think, is that there is no one to answer their phone. Because for, for me, for me, if I cannot you know, there's no advice left for me to say to to person. I will say can you just call MOM. I think you will be directed. And then they will tell me they will call me back and said that nobody's answering the call. You can only e-mail, but not all domestic workers know how to send e-mail. So that's the problem. So there is like a 20, 25 percent raise of calls.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:05] That is just, you know, so heartbreaking to hear because, you know, already without the pandemic, when I hear stories of employees in Singapore and the high rates of just the inhumanity and the abuse of these domestic workers suffer and then using the pandemic as an excuse. Right. To exploit them even further is unconscionable. And and it is just I can't I have no words. I'm so sorry.

Bhing Navato: [00:29:35] There are there's there's so many of them. That's why when when I had an interview a few weeks ago, I said we're thanking the Ministry of Manpower for taking care of the male, my migrants, because you know what's happening to them right now. But don't forget the domestic workers, because we are the hidden one. Like, no one will know once we're inside the house, no one will know what's happening to us. And sometimes they can ask for help because their phones are confiscated or during not even allowed to go out. So those are the reasons. I think once Phase Two started. There will be many domestic workers will run away. We're waiting for that.

Petrina Kow: [00:30:19] Oh dear. And I mean, I want to say, you know, good luck. What? Like, I don't know what else to say except, you know, I hope that they find the help that they can get and that we're here to support you guys here. Thank you. Thank you for that Bhing. And and for constantly and so diligently, you know, showing up and being being the voice of the people whom you who who have no voice. So thank you for that Bhing. We'd like to invite also our next foreign domestic worker, Eli. She's from Central Java. She also volunteers at Voice of Invisible Hands here in Singapore, most other places. And she's also one of the winners of the migrant workers storytelling competition two years ago. Eli, are you here with us?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:31:03] Yes. Connection just in and out.

Petrina Kow: [00:31:05] No problem. So I wanted to check in with you as well. If you're doing okay and if you're, you know, you being well looked after. And I think because you are a writer and a poet, that you probably turned some of your experiences here into verse. So tell me what that experience has been like for you.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:31:26] Yeah. For me is the opposite from anybody else. I am grateful that I always met, like, beautiful people. I always blessed in many ways. But during the pandemic, my employer she usually not around. But see decide to stay the border is about to close. So she came here before the circuit breaker. So she had stay for fourteen days stay home notice. And then after that, everyone is staying at home. And see like to eat our restaurant food. But the kids don't like to eat restaurant. So I have to go outside and I go outside, buy more than three times a day. So it's like I worried about myself. Like if I don't wear a mask, I met a lot of, like, strangers. And what will happen to me? Like, I'm I really scared, but I keep telling myself I will be okay. And I should be okay. And I keep. I'm not skipping taking the vitamins. I mean, so I will not worry about it until there is one cases in the nearby apartment. And then then she reduce ask me me to go. But still after I go out to bring her like one packet of noodles and then come back to cook for the kids dinner. And then go out again to buy something else. So yeah, it's the opposite of the others. But it's scary because outside is like scary, right? There is almost no people on the street. But I also feel like those people are working on the construction that time, are still working. Those are like. Maybe hurry to finish up the route work or something else. I was wondering, like, how do their work without wearing a mask? Right. There is no hand sanitiser beside them. Even the water and the glass is just beside the stand and and the dust and everything. I mean, how hard can they keep their faith? Like, how do they're not worried about everything.

Petrina Kow: [00:33:42] Yeah. No, no. Thanks for sharing that. You know, alternate point of view. That whilst a big group of of our domestic workers are being held at home. They might also be another group who are constantly being sent out to run the errands. The employers don't want to do themselves right. As like we'll expose you instead. We don't have to expose ourselves, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks. I mean, it is. And, you know, if you're afraid, you can also sort of say, I don't feel like going out to buy your food today. Can I cook you a meal?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:34:20] She will say. I'm craving for this.

Petrina Kow: [00:34:24] Yeah. There's also Deliveroo. I introduce her to the app.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:34:29] And her most our favourite restaurant is out of the range. So it's like something in Bebod. Something in Lavender. And I was in East Coast. Right.

Petrina Kow: [00:34:40] So no, I mean, I tell you what. Look, whatever it is, you know, we we think about, you know, who we've come to deem as essential workers and front line workers. Right. People who have to keep going out there every day, risking their lives to make sure the rest of us can function. And we just. You know. Like our, our food delivery drivers. You know, our essential worker is in health care, you know, and and the people, you know, serving our food, we we we you know, they're out there every day, you know. So with the faith and with lots of extra cleanliness measures, I think that's how they all do it. But thank you so much, Eli. I look forward to hearing your poem in a while. At this point. We'd like to kind of open the floor up to everybody. And here's where we kind of, you know, threw the question open to whoever would like to sort of weigh in. What do you reckon? Lau. I mean, do you know I've been thinking about this and something you said Eni earlier really struck me, which was. The in times of, you know, crisis like that, like the pandemic. It's like a war on information, isn't it? And and I feel like especially for our most vulnerable. The access to information is something that is I don't know whether it's deliberate or is just a blind spot for a lot of people. So I'm not sure where to take this, but I'm happy just to to hear, you know, your perspectives. You know, some things have come up that have been positive. But I think, you know, this particular in this particular situation, a lot of the issues have been there for very long. It's just that I think for the general populace to sort of kind of go, OK, OK, we we we see you now. You know, so how can we move forward from this and how can we be more inclusive of your voices? And, you know, how can we make working here in Singapore better for everyone? I mean, everyone, any or maybe maybe you can give us a little perspective.

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:36:58] One of the good thing, when I because I've been chairing the International Migrants Alliance is this actually a grassroots alliance of them immigrants, migrant workers and refugee community in the world. So we have like hundred eighty members in thirty five countries. So we've been talking a lot of the Zoom, of the Skype before we. In fact, during those Covid 19 we keeps. A lot. We have a lot of exchanging from Canada, U.S., Europe and so forth. And what I can say. There really commonalities. Commonalities in the sense that what has been experienced by migrant workers, regardless of our sector, whether you are in construction, whether you are in plantation, on whether you are domestic workers, has been existing for years. This is not the first time we are suffering. The issue of low pay, long working hours, awful work, you know, denial of us and other thing has been part off the system. And that's one thing that before Covid 19, many people just take for granted that, you know, this issue is not even visible. You know as well, I should say, domestic workers, migrant workers are happily, you know, with happy faces on Sunday. You think? Everything is fine, you know. And then they take it for granted that, you know, the road is clean, migrant workers can eat, and everything is fine. They do not go beyond the wall. They don't go beyond factories. They don't go beyond that, though, you know, the gadget that this workers are holding, because, you know, when migrant workers is holding this iPhone stuff, you know, everything, suddenly you are you are so well, you know, so you have no problem. So that kind of assumption is really very strong. And I think this is also added because off with, you know, the exclusion, you are using the the language of inclusivity. In them. For decades, the migrant workers in the different part of the world has been excluded from the society in the sense you are excluded within the law. So you are not, many of us are not even under the labor ordinance. You don't have even a rest hours or, you know, working hours. You don't have minimum wage, what you have is a market wage, you know, so you will be price. You have a price tag according to your nationality. So that is kind of sad, you know, because you look like an animal. You know, you whether you are a cow or you are a pig, you know, you have different price. And that's how we we that's how the migrant workers for many decades has been treated. So within the law, we are completely excluded. That example, domestic workers. It's not even within the labor ordinance. Migrant workers in general are not. Until you it's like, semi professional or even professional, you call it expat, then you are within the law. Otherwise, when you are falling under the informal sector, you are not protected by any law. If your government do not fight for any memorandum of agreement with that country, then practically you are under the radar. So this is the the reason why our conditions become very invisible within the context of the regulation. Now within society you can see that we are living in isolation. The domestic workers in employer houses. You don't see them until Sunday. You don't even see them on Sunday if they don't go out. In Taiwan, it's not even mandatory to have holiday. Right. Actually, within Asia, only Hong Kong has a weekly mandatory holiday. But again, if you don't fight for it, you don't pursue it. Government, employers, you don't get even 24 hours. You get on like 10:00 am all the way to 5:00, and that's all. How many hours is that? It's only, eight hours. That is your rest hours. You know, so it's not like the right that has been given is is is there if you don't fight for it there, nothing yet. Yet when you see construction workers, plantation they are hidden. You know in the case of Singapore the are in the dense, cramp and very unhygiene dorms. And who put them there? The companies. Do you think government don't know about that? Of course they know. They legalised their dormitories. But what do they do about that? Nothing. You know, so. So what you see is actually maltreatment, abusive treatment. We call it modern day slavery treatment. Forced labor. Name it. You know, to migrant workers. And yet there is a strong denial in the part of government to even be there for the for us. You know, something like that. Not only the Singapore or Hong Kong government, even our own government. Now, in fact, during Covid 19 what has been found in common. The time when a lot of people being deported, terminated, our own government is not even ready to accept us back home. Some government even tell their people oh stay abroad. I'll send you the food, I'll stay abroad. I'll give you some money. You know, I mean, it's so sad. It's sad. Like, I need to go home. Yeah. I mean,

Laurindo Garcia [00:42:03] You're referring to the Indonesian. You're referring to the Indonesian government there? Is that what you're saying?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:42:07] Yeah. But you can see in other countries also. We find in the case of Bangladesh or even in Latin America, many home government, our own government. I mean, I'm not an Indonesian. I'm I'm talking about the rest of our sending government. Are not even ready to welcome their return migrants. And that is very sad. And one of the things that we notice whenever we were forced to go home for any reasons, there is no social subsidy. The fact that you will be unemployed for at least six months to come, maybe by end of the year, you can only do this the only time you can look for another job abroad. You will be unemployed for six months and yet no subsidy to your family. Why? Because most countries treat migrant workers as no longer poor families. So that's one of the thing. So when you ask about so what to do to move forward for the inclusivity, we'd be one of the biggest lesson for me. I find it during Covid 19 is the realisation and awareness among the people. A lot of the workers, the migrant themself actually now acknowledge if they don't come together and they don't say something about that condition forever, they will suffer under the misery. So now you can see a lot of migrant workers, just the social media. And, you know, they are in the plantation and say, hey, I'm hungry can you send me food, you know? They don't have to wait until they die to do that. Now, the workers inside the camp are also doing that. The refugee is doing that. So you can see there are more voices. People have no choice but to take it publicly. Now, among the community, you know, whether you are in receiving or sending government in Singapore, Hong Kong, the the people actually now start acknowledging. Yeah. This migrants, man. They've been with us forever. They live and grew up with migrants. In fact, their children actually being brought up by the domestic workers throughout, you know, 20 years, maybe 30 years. And they never really understood understand yet until Covid 19, came that this people are really, really suffering. No one is taking care of them. They have to take care of the families. They have to be healthy. They have to be strong. With very low wages. But no one is caring and for them. So a lot of Hong Kong families here or even Hong Kong people are realising that. And I think I believe even in the case of Singapore. How they support? Many of them call us. Okay. I have this cash, use it for your community. I have this mask, use it. Oh. What do you need for us to help you? The church coming to us. The mosque is doing something. So now we don't have to ask. Hey, hey, guys, help us. Now they are coming voluntary us to offer assistance. And that's one of the beauty we see within, you know, this Covid 19. That the local also acknowledge that cannot live without migrants. And the migrant also acknowledges they don't say something about their condition, nothing will change.

Petrina Kow: [00:45:09] Yeah. That. Thank you for that Eni, because you you summed it up so well, you know. And I'm just I'm just in awe of you really. And how you managed to, you know, do all his activism and all this, you know, work on top of the work that you do in Hong Kong. And I tell you what, every time I look at Hong Kong and I look at the the way they are protesting for their rights. Right. I mean that the young people of Hong Kong and they really give me hope. Like I love I love what they're doing. I love that they're, you know, getting out there and. Yeah. So thank you for that. You know, I hope, you know, us and Singapore can take some you know, can look at Hong Kong as an inspiration and and kind of get there some one day. Some day. I have hope. Bhing or Eli or Madhavan do you guys want to weigh in on that? Of something that you've noticed or how we can be more inclusive. Ya Bhing.

Bhing Navato: [00:46:10] Yeah. Yeah. Eni was right. I think for for for Hong Kong, at least. Some people most people they realising importance of the migrant workers presence in their country. But I think for Singapore now, they only realise how important male migrants are. You see how they care of them. They had you know, they have a singing together the other night for them. So those those are the things they saw, the importance. Like who build this country, who build the buildings that will build the houses? These are the male migrants. But I think for now, they're still forgetting the presence of the domestic workers who have been helping the employers. You know, how how can they work if no one is taking care of their children, taking care of their parents? So they need to realise that the you know, in order to lessen the abuse. Like to, just don't tolerate anymore. I have written in one of my articles that if if only we can be like, act as a team during this, especially this situation of Covid, then I think we can survive this situation successfully, like our employers will do to work at home, because most of the most of the people now do stay, work from home. So just just be a team. Like I will take care of your kids. I will cook your food. You do your own work at home. I'll make sure that it will be quiet. If the kids are noisy, I'll be downstairs. You know, those are the things that they need to realise this. Many domestic workers are doing these without employers realising how important to be their presence must be in the house. And I have like, for example, I have these people who called me like, because her employers are busy working during the day and they have a sick parent at home. So the helper must stay with the father inside the father's room overnight because they cannot take care of their father. But still, when she asked for a rest day, the employer said, no, you can take a rest like at this time. Or you can break your you're off day into like two hours every day. So how can how can you do that? But I think I think that's very important to do, get to know who's in the house. Because I think for every domestic workers, that's what we're trained to do when we're at home with our employers, we're trying to create a conversation so that at least everybody will be in a good mood, you know, try to avoid arguments and everything. But even even we do that if our employers will, you know, show stress, everybody's stressed like. I used to think that there's one complaint and then the employer said because I'm stressed, that's why I vented on my domestic worker. But we're stressed too. But we don't vent it out to you or  your child.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:39] Absolutely.

Bhing Navato: [00:49:40] Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:41] And I think I think parents of all around the world having to deal with home based learning are really understanding this this issue right now in a very, very real way. Thank you so much being for sharing that, Madhavan. Did you share anything?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:49:56] I heard the story around 1995 or something. The worker. The person who working in Singapore as a migrant worker shared their stories with the family. Usually in the villages most people in the neighborhood are gathered with that discussion in the evening with my Dad. One uncle, mentioned that if you earn one day's salary in Singapore, you can get one gram of gold during 1995. But now you cannot get the same one gram of gold.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:35] Did you say one gram of gold?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:50:37] Yes. In 90s, if their one day salary, they can get a one gram of gold. But now also the salary is same. Same 18 dollar, but the one gram of gold is 63, 65.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:51] I understand what you mean. So basically we have not. I mean, with inflation, everything goes up, right. And everybody salaries goes up at the same rate. But you know that the growth of the salaries of our, you know, foreign workers have not grown together with everything else. They've kept it low. And I mean, I think that's really where we're beginning to understand where there are a lot of these exploitations happening by the companies who are hiring you guys and getting you guys here on big, big promises of wonderful things. But I think it's so systemic because it should not be a case where somebody can exploit and earn money from the situation. I think that's. And because in the first place, your rights as workers here are not protected. You're obviously easy targets, you know, for people to exploit you. So once again, I I'm just I mean, I'm learning I've I've come to know about the situation. You know, of human trafficking, because I got to know a woman who who started an organisation here called Emancipasia Sylvia Lee. And she was educating me on the human trafficking situation here in Singapore. And and for me to have kind of linked that to this idea of human trafficking here in Singapore was very shocking to me about, you know, 10 years ago when I when I learned this. And then as the layers are coming, coming off. And I think with everything that is kind of blowing up around the world, people are really sitting up and wanting to know. So for me at least, I feel like this pandemic, at least a silver lining is that people are really. Hang on. Hang on. What? What? What? Tell me about. Tell me more. You know, I want to learn more. So I don't know if. And I'm really hoping that we don't go back to the new the old ways or like I want things to be back to normal again. And then we forget all of this happened. But I really hope that with elections and with, you know, putting our leaders and making our leaders accountable, that we will continue to speak up for the people who cannot be heard. You know, I think that's that's really important for all of us. And it's not just the voices that, oh, you know, I'll just do one article. Thanks. And then that's it. You know, I hope we continue to have the conversation going so that we can continue to make sure that systemically something happens. I mean, what do you think Lau?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:53:31] Yeah, definitely. I think it's. What has happened over the last few months. It's been more of a symptom of a bigger problem for sure. And the solutions are not going to happen overnight either. It's going to be a long road ahead. And I think what would help our audience is perhaps some ideas of what, you know, our listeners should be looking out for. What what they could be trying to have conversations about with, you know, their their their fellow residents, their their employers or just their friends and their family about what a more inclusive world would look like. And so with that, I want to open up the discussion to a segment that we have in every episode where we ask our guests to imagine that they were bestowed with a magical power, a magical wand. Right. And by waving that wand, you could change the way that societies work. And so imagine you were given that magical power to change the migrant labor system after the pandemic. So my question to you, to each of you is what is the one thing that you would do to make migrant work more inclusive with your magic wand? And so I'd like to start off with you Eni, what is that one thing you would do with your magic wand?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:54:57] Is recognition to our contribution. And also recognition to our human rights. You don't have to think of us or any other thing. Just think of as a human human means you have to work and earn money and contribute to the society. And we've become very useful to the development of any, you know, country where we stay. So just recognise us as a human, which also including as I workers, as a woman. Second is inclusion. It's very important. We just we don't want to be any thing about the society. We don't want any privilege. We just want an equality within the law and within the treatment. That means inclusion within the law and inclusion in any type of program that given to the people, specially during Covid 19 and even after, should also be given to the migrants. And the last thing is also aspect of our rights. As some foreigner that means that we have right to stay, to work. Of course, right to settle. You know, because if we consider how many years we already live abroad, maybe more than half of our life is really abroad. But yet you cannot be a normal person in this host countries because you have been you know, you have been pushed down. You know, you have been denied your human rights. They just want our labor. They just don't want our human rights. So it's time to respect our our basic rights, see, you know, respect us. If people believe in religion, in humanity, you know, in in justice this is the time for everyone, whether are in the government, whether they are in the in the you know, in the society, whether they are in any type of element of the society, it this time for us to show that in time of crisis like this, we we we we we we learn to show that we are really a human. That means we have to treat everyone like us. You know, if you are, if you are hurt, then we are also hurt. If you are hungry, we are also hungry. If you are exhausted, we are also exhausted. And just imagine that it happen could happen to you. It also could happened to us. If you don't want that kind of treatment, then you better start treating others, you know the way you treat yourself.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:57:26] Thank you. Thank you, Eni. How about you Madhavan?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:57:29] I have two opinion. One is to increase the salary. The other one is. I don't think everything change. So I decided to get one gun with three bullets. Wanted to shoot the God who created this cruel world. Second bullet, shoot the whole world because I need to punish the. All the person who behaved with inhuman, without humanity. Then the person who behave with humanity and social response, I want to take them rest. To relive from the world. And last then. Last bullet for me to shoot myself.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:58:07] Oh dear. Okay.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:09] This sounds like a movie. Madhavan. This will be your next movie. This should be your next movie. That was that was incredibly graphic.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:58:24] Because everyone running for money. Nothing won't change much. In India also the migrant worker face many problems.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:32] Yeah.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:58:33] When compared to Singapore, Singapore is much better. If I had a chance to meet someone who may take some action in Singapore, they must consider domestic worker and sex worker also. They also suffered a lot.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:47] That's right. Thank you for raising that Madhavan. How would you Bhing? What would you do with your magic wand?

Bhing Navato: [00:58:53] Yes, I will make all the migrant workers be part of the labor law. So everybody, all of us will be treated equally. We will have our rest day. We will that we can take leave. Because we cannot take leave. We are not part of the labor law. And, you know, everybody will treat us as decent workers.

Petrina Kow: [00:59:16] Thanks for saying that. And how about you, Eli?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:59:19] I am so excited for this segment. I love magic. So if I given the power did change the world, you know, is to erase this stigma and the gap between the blue collar and the white collar workers. And I wish there is no migrant labor in the world. Every country, can taking care of their people and everybody can just happily working side to side with their loved ones, without suffering being away. In this pandemic we suffer emotionally a lot because we worry about how is our family doing? Are they okay? How if anything happened to them and we are busy taking care of others family. Wow we as a domestic worker, taking care of other family and foreign worker, construction worker building of someone else's home when, well, they don't know whatever happened in their own home. I have no words for this.

Petrina Kow: [01:00:17] Thank you for sharing that, Eli. And very soon you'll be sharing with us the poem that you have written, inspired by all that's happened around us. So thank you all so much. A big warm thank you to all our guests, Eli Nur Fadilah, who we'll be hearing from in a moment. Mr. Ramasamy Madhavan the director of Salary Day. Bhing Navato from HOME and Eni Lestari Andayani Adi, the chairperson of International Migrants Alliance. For more information on our guests and their work. Make sure to check out the Inclusively website for details. Follow us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or YouTube, and you'll be notified when new episodes are out. And of course, if you heard this podcast up to here and you like it, do submit a review and tell us how what you like and how we can improve. We always welcome any feedback. That's our show for today. Until next time. I'm Petrina Cow.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:01:07] And I'm Laurindo Garcia. And now we go over to you, Eli, our artist in residence. And we invite you to recite your poem and take us out for the show. Thank you.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [01:01:18] Today I would like to read my poems. Based on my inspiration and my experience during this pandemic. I wrote this first poem when I feel tired and I feel. Miss my family so much about I cannot meet them. And also my friends. I cannot be with them. So. The title is When This Will End. When this will end? I'm sure you do feel sad. Though we all know the world too feel bad. Like those sick patients in hospital beds has nothing but hope of health that will come back. When this will end? I'm sure you do feel the pain, though, we actually can strongly stand like mahogany tree facing the rain, feel the blazing and the power that we will gain. But who can answer when things are unsure? Nobody. Now one. Only when we united together by heart, we believe. All shall pass. When it's time. We'll back. Holding each other hands, seeing along the mahogany tree under the rain, happily waiting for the sun to shine again. When it will end? Soon, as soon as we believe we strong and we can. Keep praying. Keep believing. Tighter your hands onto your faith, because the ray of the God grace waiting. Thank you. So and this is my second poem. I wrote this when I miss my special person. My favourite person, so. I Fear What You Fear is the title. I fear what you fear. Remembering to have spent time together. We share spirit, joy and laughter. With you, my path getting clearer. Although our distance is not near. Honestly, I miss you. But I fear what you fear. That's why I choose to not stay near. I really wish you were here because the night is getting colder. Without you. Oh, how I miss your laughter. Even only through network wire. You know that I fear what do you fear. It's not possible to run the you and get closer. Can I just hug you in my prayer? Thank you.

Coronavirus lockdowns have meant the Olympics are postponed, small gyms face threat of permanent closures, professional athletes are training in isolation and a plethora of home workouts are offered online. Could the way we have continued to do sports through a pandemic help the industry become more inclusive in the future? In this episode Petrina and Laurindo check in with Moses James from Innervate Fitness, Paralympic medalist Theresa Goh, rising junior tennis star Michelle Yeo and fitness buff/actor Dwayne Lau.

TRANSCRIPT

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Inclusively. In this series, we are asking the question, how has the pandemic changed people's lives and what lessons have we learned that could make a quick pandemic world more inclusive? I mean, host Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:13] And I'm Petrina Kow. Welcome, everybody. Well, today's theme is all about sports and fitness. How has this whole circuit breaker affected your ability to do sport and keep fit? You know, as a ex national swimmer, Laurindo. Wow. Let me tell you. I think so. It's so so far as you've known me. I've been the most unathletic both. And, you know, right.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:40] That's not true. That's not true. You're the one. You're one of the very few people has been very consistent with putting Instagram fitness workouts on in the time that I've known you.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:50] So you see, this is the problem, Laurindo. Because every time you do actually see a pose for me is the only time I exercise. So if you count the number of posts, that's the number or type of I've actually exercised and I have a very fraught relationship with them, with sport only because, you know, I think in my youth I overdid it to that point where it wasn't I don't think it was in my blood to be a national, you know, athlete really. I very much wanted to be singing and dancing on stage, which is why I think when I when I decided to take a different path, sports, at least fitness for me took a real backseat because like I always viewed exercise as some sort of punishment. You know, it was a very emotional thing. Like every time I had to put on a swimsuit, it was like, you know, like my body just goes into, like a thing and, you know. But then I kind of took that fitness for granted a lot. From my twenties to my thirties are now in my 40s when I'm feeling everything break down and I'm starting up again. I really kind of wished I didn't have that two year, two decade long sort of hiatus where I did nothing to keep my body in shape, writes it today. And I think, you know, I've been seeing so many people sort of work out on together. And I myself have been taking weekly sort of Zoom yoga classes. So I'm I'm really interested to find out from our company today how they've been all sort of like, you know, doing like those professional sports and athletes. And how is it really affected them? And so today on our panel, we have Moses. James, I think you might find him familiar because we interviewed him for our first episode. He's a co-founder of Innervate Fitness, a fitness social enterprise who offers cross cross fit to senior citizens and people with physical disabilities. And so he is coming, coming to join us. And we'll also be joined by two rising young national sports stars, Michelle Yeo, who has represented Singapore for the Junior Federation Cup under 16. And we'll also be speaking to Dwayne Lau, who was our artisan residents for this episode. Hello. Welcome, Dwayne.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:02:54] And our panel would not be complete without national swimmer and Paralympic medalist two years ago. Also be joining us as well and giving her perspective on sports in the time of Covid as well. Welcome Theresa. Right. So shall we dive in? I'm going to go to you, Moses. It's great to have you back on the show. You you Innervate. Fitness had the honour of being featured in our very first episode of this podcast. We're so proud to to have led this whole series with your story. How are you doing?

Moses James: [00:03:26] I'm doing OK. Hanging in there. You know, we're really happy that we get to be a part of this initiative. That being because it is doing. Yeah, I think it's been an interesting couple of months for for us. But all this going on.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:42] I can imagine so where we left off with the last time we spoke to you. You were telling us about how things were looking great for Innervate. I mean, you are you are you are getting a lot of great traction where there are offering of classes for Senior Citizens your Silvers program and also your adaptive programs as well for adaptive sports, among your other offerings for. For other people who you want to keep fit right. And that was the beginning of the year. Right. And so how have things changed for you?

Moses James: [00:04:14] So, I mean, on top of the work that we do with senior citizens and persons with disabilities, we also work very closely with the youth at risk. And every year we have a annual fitness charity fundraiser called Operation Broken Wing. And it was scheduled to be executed in February. And I see so in January, were busy planning for it. It took quite a bit of effort to get this thing done. It's like a 500 to 600 people kind of event over the last six years that we've run it we raised. I think close to 800000. This is a very grassroots kind of initiative. So this is quite cool. But once this thing came about, then we had to make a difficult decision to stop and. Was pointed to the end of the year, and then when the circuit breaker kicked in, that order kind of went out the window. So aside from the regular programs that you're running with adaptives and silvers, this big event was also something that kind of took a hit and it really changed our runway for the rest of the year.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:05:24] So just to be clear, is it that Operation Broken Wing for this year is still postponed or was it canceled or what's the status with that event?

Moses James: [00:05:32] So. So right right now we are planning to hopefully run a small version of it in person and maybe a virtual element to be added on as well. So that's that's the current plan. But we do know, based on how the guidelines are with the regular classes and stuff. It was a mad scramble to kind of launch equipment out on members, you know, and get them up to speed on how to use it and get ourselves familiar with it as well. So I guess that's the biggest, biggest change.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:10] A lot of the gym owners that I've been speaking to have done similar things. They've quickly switched and offering online classes or work, be it live or recorded, started renting out their equipment for their empty gyms that, you know, it's really heartbreaking to hear about. I've got some rented equipment at the back here myself. And so I can just imagine what that was like having to scramble at the last minute. And you've been doing that since April. And they had announced what the relaxation of the circuit breaker would look like. And they said that gyms would be in a phase, too. So how was that news received at your end? I mean, and how how has going online been of benefit to the company to Innervate, if at all?

Moses James: [00:07:02] So for the first part, you got to phase two and when gyms will be open. I think when they announced it, you know, the circuit breaker is going to kick in in that period, that couple of these things kept changing. The rules kept changing. And so it's very tiring to try and stay ahead of it. And when they announced that they were going to extend the circuit breaker. And then subsequently when they announced like phase one, phase two, I think for us, like my partner and I, we kind of came to terms with the fact that hey this uncertainty is huge and there's really only so much planning that's actually going to be effective. I mean, we don't really know. So it's not feasible to to make too detailed a plan. This is going to wear you out. So right now, our stance is okay, face to be doing a wind. It is. But we do know when it happens. These are a few things that we kind of want to do. Will it get people back? Based on what the guidelines are. Facilitate the return of the equipment and then. The question that you asked about how we've had to adapt to it. The online classes that we've been doing, we've been working hard to add value to it because everybody's giving classes online and you can offer your classes for free even, which is what we're doing for now. But the value and making sure that it's something that's sustainable and meaningful for people. It takes a bit of effort. So we've made some headway with that. And we're looking to continue that even after phase two, because we anticipate that there'll be some people who will prefer to continue looking up from home for whatever reasons. So we want to make that a useful experience for them. So that's taken up a lot of our headspace as well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:08:53] I can just imagine the amount of uncertainty you're having to deal with right now at the beginning of circuit breaker. And now it's still something you just it just doesn't make sense to be planning out. But it sounds like you are managing to keep your head above water. Thank you. Do stay on the line with us because we are gonna continue the conversation. I want to welcome Theresa go to the conversation right now. Hi, Theresa. How are you?

Theresa Goh: [00:09:18] Hi, Laurindo. I'm doing well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:09:21] Good so. So last time we connected. It's been a little while. But I think that the last time you were in the news was when you announced your your retirement from sports. That was at the end of last year. Was that right?

Theresa Goh: [00:09:35] Yeah, I think I retired September, October around there. And then I had a couple of months to myself before I started job searching. And I think I was talking to my friends a couple of these maybe last week or something. And I was just saying how I feel like it was really good timing because I managed to get a job I. Walking for maybe a month or a couple weeks, and then that was really the start of everything. Everything. And then and then now I've been pretty much mostly working from home. So I feel like then the normal for me is working from home, which is I feel like it's gonna be a struggle going back to work. I'm going to be like today. Today. I have to go to work today. Yeah. I think I've been I've been I still been talking to a lot of my friends who either qualified for the Olympic or Paralympic Games or are in the midst of qualifying. And I think they've been. Everything's been on hold. So they've had their own struggles with that, having to move. As with many things, they have to move things online and just digitise everything. So and when the team has to monitor all the workouts. It's all done over Zoom or Skype or whatever. Yeah. I think everybody's just have to they've had to really adapt really quickly because, you know, like, what was this? It is really uncertain. And I think it's expected because of the situation that we we would all like clear a clear kind of road to go out, off, you know, and to know when we can get out of here. But because of this, they kind of unraveling situation, how uncontrollable it is. I think it's so hard to just be able to get a clear answer, which is the root of all the frustration, you know, when you don't know. It's it's hard. Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:11:52] I mean, this year was meant to be an Olympic year. Right. And, you know, I'm sure you've got many friends who were in training still as well. And, you know, we could see that that was the big cliffhanger question a couple of months back, you know, would Tokyo continue or not? It's such a big buildup and people have been training for years up until this point. And so when they finally made the decision, while everybody knew it was the wise thing to do from a public health perspective, there's also there's also an emotional element as well. I mean, what were some of the things that you're hearing about from your friends when you don't need to name any names? But you know what? What was kind of like the.

Theresa Goh: [00:12:35] General.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:35] Vibe?

Theresa Goh: [00:12:36] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, frustration is definitely one of the main thing with it applies to everybody. I think when you have a plan and then you are not allowed to carry. True. It is frustrating as hell. And I think it's the same for all of us, everybody, you know, for Tokyo, even though I had no plans to go compete. But I was planning to go and watch. So I had tickets, accommodation. And so even that is has to be postponed and arranged differently because I have to go. I'm not going this year, you know, and I think for a lot of my friends, it's just. Because we're athletes I feel like there's a lot of I like to see the athlete mindset. So they didn't really dwell on it too long. They knew that change was made is done. There's nothing you can do about it. And time really waits for nobody. You can't say it. Times stop. Possibly. You know, there's no there's no there's no way. And so we just kind of roll with the punches a bit and deal with things as they come along.And I think for a lot of my friends, that's the way they're dealing with it, just, you know, dealing with things as they come in. And when they finally announced the dates for the new OGPG games, I think that give some relief because at least there's some something look forward to. But, you know, I think under that, there's always still that. What if by then there's still no clear picture, then what will we do? You know, I think this does that worry. But we put that aside, you know, just kind of what we want with whatever we have right now. I love that.

Petrina Kow: [00:14:23] Thanks for saying that, Theresa, about the athlete's mindset, because I think, you know what? What really struck me as especially when I was training was, you know, we we think of it as so much of a physical feat. Right. But then I think all athletes know that is so much more of a mind and a mind game in a way, for, you know, this for a lot of the top athletes and what really sets apart. Right. Big, big champions or whatever. And, you know, and I'm speaking to Ashley, Isabelle's mom, when I was inviting her on the show. And she was also expressing frustration that, you know, in the school system, we have prioritize the academics over sports. Right. But, you know, these were the first thing to go and it's not coming back. And when we we're coming back to school, it's to prioritize the ones who are taking exams. Right, because they have to. And I totally understand the mindset. But yet, at the same time, it does really signal to our population where we put our emphasis, you know, and then we're saying sports can wait, you know? And I mean, I get it there. Everybody has their, you know, sort of like priority is right and where it kind of hits them. But I really appreciate it. You sort of mentioning that, you know, sports is in so many ways is is a mental game. So thanks for that Theresa. Do hang on. We have lots more to chat with about it. But now I'd like to bring on a young lady who who have I've known since she was very, very young and I haven't seen her in a while. And I'm so happy to see how she's progressed and really have grown in her sport. She is ranked number one in 2017 and 18 for her age group. She's represented Singapore in the Junior Federation Cup and tennis. And I think she is actually pursuing this in a full time basis. So she's going around the world training with different professional sort of teams. But obviously, all that has had to take a stop. So everyone say welcome and hello to Michelle. Hi, Michelle.

Michelle Yeo: [00:16:28] Hello

Petrina Kow: [00:16:28] So I've always known that you've been playing tennis since you were a very very young girl. And you were very powerful. And I think it runs in your in the genes because her mom was the national tennis player as well. But when did this whole sort of like taking it really seriously and go full time happen for you? Maybe you could fill us in on your journey a little bit.

Michelle Yeo: [00:16:50] I think I really started to consider this full time tennis path when I was in secondary later part of the year. So that would be in 2018. So in the later part, I was still in school and at the start of last year I decided to go full time. So I moved to China. And in order to pursue tennis while studying online at the same time.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:16] Wow. And. And what about like, you know, sort of going to Sec 1 and, you know, playing tennis? Did you kind of go, okay? I think I want to take this seriously, because in many ways, most other kids were just sort of to school and do sport at the same time. But what made you sort of go I won this.

Michelle Yeo: [00:17:35] When I was in Primary 6, starting from Primary 6. I said travelling around the region to play a lot of tournaments and that continue into sank one. And I found that, you know, I was not I was struggling to balance both stay in school and study while still going in and going up to play tournament. So. My thought processes like if I'm staying in school, I'm not a great tennis player, but also I'm not a good students. So I decided to go full time to see where this would take me.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:03] Yeah. And how has that journey been so far? It's been almost two or three years, right?

Michelle Yeo: [00:18:07] This year. The second year. So last year t was great as training a lot. I was playing a lot of tournaments. But this year, at the start of this year, the virus came around. And I've just been. I haven't been on the court in two months has just been very frustrating.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:23] Yeah. Gosh, I can imagine. So how have you adapted your training or have you been in touch with your tennis coaches and what have they been telling you to do?

Michelle Yeo: [00:18:34] So most of my coaches are in China, so I communicate with them through WeChat. So I would train outside and I would take videos of myself and send it to them and ask, oh, am I doing this right? I've lately I've been working more technical since I'm just at home, so that would be my shadow swings. Not so much like hitting live balls since there's no tennis court to play on.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:59] I was just thinking because Laurindo's husband actually showed me a video of him playing tennis into like hitting tennis balls into a curtain. That that could be a new thing, you know, indoor tennis. But also I was thinking about tennis in general as a sport and how the two tennis players are so separated by this massive fence. But are naturally social distancing anyway. So maybe tennis is one of those sports that, hey, guys, maybe we can do this. What do you think?

Michelle Yeo: [00:19:33] I think is good. I think we could do that potentially. But there will also be some people who you want to socialize when you go out with your friend. Right. So after you play tennis and you'll be like, hey, let's sit down here and talk for a while. So there's like, you know,

Petrina Kow: [00:19:48] That's what that's where the tennis shield, like the you know, the face shields. Come on.

Michelle Yeo: [00:19:53] Yeah. Maybe.

Petrina Kow: [00:19:55] See, it almost looks like a you know, one of those. What, the obasans used to wear right when they go out and they shield themselves from the sun. It looks the same. So it's cool. You guys will be used to it. Oh, that's so wonderful to hear. So are you are you feeling like. Okay, so your plan was to go full time? You bet. You know, it's based overseas, but now this has happened. What have you learned about this whole process? And what what are you sort of like working to kind of maybe improve?

Michelle Yeo: [00:20:28] I feel like this whole experience has helped improve my mental because I have every day I wake up and there's no tournament to prepare for this. I'm not going to go into court, but I start to get a bit I have to do fitness. I still have to work on my technique enough to still communicate with my coaches. So I feel that this is more is it is telling me mentally, more than physically.

Petrina Kow: [00:20:54] Yeah. And I mean, I suppose, you know, when you get to travel again and get back to training, maybe this this period would have taught you some very, very valuable lessons. I mean, I suppose we're still in the process, so we don't really know what that might be yet. But it's really great that you're having these, you know, these realizations at such an early age. You know, you sound so mature for your kids. Fifteen.

Michelle Yeo: [00:21:19] Yeah

Petrina Kow: [00:21:19] That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Michelle. And I really wish and hope that for your sake, you will get back in the court again at some some kind of court soon or be able to handle balls and hit them around somewhere. Hang on. We'll be chatting with you very shortly. And next, I'd like to invite a girlfriend whom usually I get to see, you know, donning a wig. And I tell you, this guy has many wigs. Okay. And you might have seen him on YouTube doing many, many parody videos. But one of the reasons I decided to get you on this episode, Dwayne, is because I think amongst the artists or the arts community, you have been such a beacon and such an inspiration to all of us in your fitness journey. I think, you know, sometimes amongst us, we kind of kid and joke about your hashtags, right? Hashtag, keep perspiring. Hashtag keep inspiring. But when we post those sweaty selfies, we have very I at least for me, I have you very much in mind. And I think you have singlehandedly, you know, like made Coach Jake synonymous with all the, you know, performers in Singapore. And he's like the coach to the artists. Right. But tell us maybe about your fitness journey, because it was quite a dramatic shift for you, right, some years back when you decided to start this?

Dwayne Lau: [00:22:46] Yeah, I've I've never been a sports person at all since young. And in fact, I was I was a fat kid. I signed up for basketball when I was in Primary 3. And after the first session, they made us run around the school. I just. I can not, I want to quit. And sadly, I didn't have very good teachers or coaches that would encourage me to do so. So I just never went into that realm. So along the way, along the way, I think I became an a little bit unhealthy. So about four years ago, I went for a medical checkup and it's one of those compulsory medical checkups in the army. And they said, hey, you need to do something about your weight and your health because you stand a very high risk of heart disease. And I was like, oh, no, I don't what do. I mean. I've been I've been trying you know, I go online, I see YouTube videos, I follow them, I do HIIT exercises. I did this thing called T25. But if you don't have anybody to be accountable to is just yourself. And the YouTube video that doesn't know that you exist, you know that it stops after a while. So finally I thought, OK, yeah I, I really need to do something about it. And I went online and I was looking for a coaches and I found this particular coaches names, Coach Jake, and he was a mutual friend. So I asked my friend, hey, is this guy reliable? Is he just in for the money or what? You know, is he good? So I had a chat with him online and I met up with him and he was telling me, you know, what are your goals? I said, I basically need to be healthy. And of course, I want to lose weight. And I'm I'm an actor. And the industry saw the aesthetics. And the physicality is also important because sometimes if you're too big or, you know you're too heavy, it's very hard to take on certain roles. And you might I always was getting cast as the father as the old man because I was big. So I somehow now I look much older than myself. And it was a bit frustrating saw there was there was a point. I said, okay, like maybe I'll just be a fat actor, you know, it's okay. But I think for me what was most important was a health that I needed to arrest that problem. And I thought, okay, I'll go with this. And cause Jake told me something very important. He said, I'm not here to get you fit and point. I'm here to help you in your health. You know, I'm not here about the aesthetics. The aesthetics will come. So don't hunger for best ethics, hunger for for consistency. And things will flow. And I thought that was very wise was because then I won't keep looking in the mirror. You know, I was just doing it. And it's been four years and I am still with Coach Jake. And he put me on different programs, including diet programs as well. And I saw I mean, my body was changing. I mean, I lost weight. I built muscles in areas I didn't know. I have muscles. And I was working out very consistently and I became a lot healthier. I fell sick less. I've seen a doctor very, very little in these four years. And I'm I'm really happy for that. And I mean, I'm keeping it consistent because it is it is a journey. I mean, you know, there's new goals that you have to to keep setting for yourself. So you don't. You don't at all.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:46] Yeah. And I mean, how is it actually direct, directly affected your work? So now that you have had this level of fitness and you look different. Like how how have you seen the way you've been casted maybe or even just in your own performance?

Dwayne Lau: [00:26:00] Right. I think it has given me a lot of stamina in terms of choreography and musicals. So recently that was last year we went to Shanghai for this musical called the Liao Jai Rocks. And it was it was shown on YouTube a few weeks ago by the theater practice. And it's a very intensive musical. The choreography is crazy, is like doing HIIT and singing at the same time. So when when we were cast for the show, the director told us, you guys need to condition your bodies before you come in for rehearsals. And we're like. What are we doing? Why do we need to condition our body before rehearsals starts? And I think I went in a little bit apprehensive, but I was like, okay, like, yeah, can I get four years of, like, constant hit all the time and all. How bad can it be? And I'm quite glad that it wasn't too difficult because I wasn't like finding myself. I did find myself panting. My core actors, though, some of them need a bit more time to get conditioned because we would do a whole chorus with full choreography. I would be okay. They would be. I'd like a hashtag. Coach Jake. Yeah. So it has really helped me. Yeah. It has given me a lot more confidence about myself also. And in terms of my physicality as well, you know, I don't feel so heavy. I don't feel so cumbersome. I'm a lot more agile. So it definitely has helped me in terms of my my movement and my physical space, my mental speeds as well. A lot more confident and a lot more alert. So that helps in the reception of the choreography and the steps.

Petrina Kow: [00:27:36] And I guess, you know, later on you'll you'll understand why I asked him to come here, because I think only he could have performed this ridiculous song, which he adapted, you know, lyrics to from other musicals. And he is literally swinging Kettleback Kettlebells and doing burpees as he is dancing and singing. Okay. Only Dwayne Lau can do this because after watching it, I was just panting in my living room, having done nothing. Right. But thank you so much for sharing your passion with us. You know, I have hired Coach Jake for myself. I have worked out with you online. It is intense people, but it is such a wonderfully warm community of people who have come together to really sort of share their love for just sort of, you know, keeping each other accountable and fit. And I think more than anything is just your your positivity and your enthusiasm. That is really infectious, Dwayne. That is that is so wonderful. So do stay on the line. We're gonna be chatting with you again. But, yeah, over to you. Laurindo, we can talk about this. We're not throw it open to the floor now, so to speak. So we've got some interesting questions to pose to you guys.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:28:49] Yeah, that's right. I mean, we we we live in extraordinary times, right? We're seeing the sports industry, the sports sector do things that we thought they would never do before. I mean, first of all, the the the the thing that nobody saw coming was just the closure of a lot of professional sports. You know, the football, basketball, all these things shut down earlier on in the year. And I know many people were crying as a result of all of these announcements. But then as the pandemic has evolved and progressed and now we're seeing new things, you know, Petrina and I were talking before we started the the today's episode and talking about how the NBA are now in residence at Disneyland. I mean, among all things like, you know, the way I see this is that, you know, professional sports are trying to find a way to keep the show going. It's it's almost theatrical. But to those spectators, right. They're gonna be living in isolation, just like the football teams in Europe are also just playing to stadiums with nobody there. Right. Is that what would you what do you read about Petrina?

Petrina Kow: [00:29:55] Yeah. And, you know, even for in in Japan. Like baseball fans now can text and send cheers and jeers via an app. So there they're actually like. So they'll bill they'll like put it around these loudspeakers into the stadium to recreate the feeling of being playing to a spectator as those that knew him or like. And it's coming out of speakers in an empty stadium. So it keeps that atmosphere alive because so much of spectator sports is the fans. Is the atmosphere as a sounds and all of that. Right. So I don't know what you guys think about that and how, you know you know, how do we see perhaps if if this was a way forward? How do we see sports adapting? I mean, I think the only thing I have questions about is maybe swimming because like, how do you bring Zoom into the water.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:30:53] From all of these things? We'd love to hear from you. What new opportunities do you see with all of these innovations? I mean, surely with with things going online, with the greater use of technology, then surely there are groups who have not been able to participate before, are now suddenly included. Theresa, what do you what do you think?

Theresa Goh: [00:31:13] I definitely think when one of the first things that I realized quite quickly when everything started going online was that there were certain events I felt like would suddenly go to, you know, previously they were held that maybe like upstairs and there was no order access to it physically. So when it moved online, suddenly I didn't have to do anything but click, go into a room, you know. So in that aspect, I felt like the access was so different that it was suddenly accessible to me. But of course, that's less only from my point of view. I had difficulty's physically accessing the space. There's still a kind of access points, like whether they have captions, whether they have sign language, you know, this kind of stuff which I don't need excessively. I said accessibility wise. But there are people who do. And in the original kind of space, there would still have not been like sign language interpreter. So nothing has changed, you know, for some people. I feel like when it comes to sport, a lot of times we were. A lot of us are not just a sport, but in general we're really comfortable the way we were. And then pretty used to human contact, physical contact, and then, you know, like having to be able to physically move your athlete and show them the right stance to be. I think we were all kind of taking that for granted. And then now we have to do it online. We have to learn how to use our words. And then I think that that kind of I hope makes better coaches. Being able to communicate better with people. I think I hope that helps that this kind of forces people to get out of their comfort zones to be better to improve. Yeah, I think I kind of look at it as a. From a positive point of view. Cause just as so much negativity, I just can't take on anymore. So this does my my way of looking at it is how positive things occur also. And to also look at the end of hopefully the end of the rainbow and being able to see good things come out of it. It's a terrible time. Let's let's all be honest. Like is not is not a good thing we're going through. But there's still ways to look at it positively.

Petrina Kow: [00:33:47] Yeah. I mean, Michelle, for you in in in tennis, I know it's very much, you know, you against your opponent, but at the same time, it's very much a spectator sport as well. So have you felt I mean, do you find that, you know, do you play better when you have people there cheering and rooting for you or do you actually not need an audience?

Michelle Yeo: [00:34:07] Personally, I don't really pay much attention to the audience. So if there's a crowd there, there's no crowd there. I feel like I play the same. So that's like it does affect me. But from this from the Covid 19, I feel that a lot of things have went online and it's not as easy like as I say, it is nice, easy to come. I feel like it's I mean, it's not as easy as I thought it would be to communicate my thoughts. Like earlier in the second break, I had injured myself, so I had to call my physio and she was like she didn't really know what was happening with my wrist because she would if I go to her, she would carry out some tests. And you know what? What happens? But I had to do the test by myself because she couldn't be here physically to tell. Check out my wrist. Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:00] Yeah. And you be like, I can turn my wrist. Two degrees. Right. But my fourth finger. And I'll go up.

Michelle Yeo: [00:35:08] Yeah, something like that.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:11] Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I know. I'm very, very, very looking forward to a massage. That's all I can say to the point that I actually bought myself one of those massage guns was how desperate I was. So I highly recommended, by the way. What do you reckon, Moses? I mean, what are some of your thoughts on that?

Moses James: [00:35:29] Like, I think that all of this has forced people to find ways to stay connected online. I guess that's the only thing that can be done immediately. So because of this as well, it's kind of given us a little bit more access like Theresa said. But to to beneficiaries and people that we normally wouldn't have had a chance to work with or explore working with because we are constrained by the physical resources we have left. Can we go down. How many people do we have to send to a place to teach? We were like with some senior activity centres as well. And so we're looking with these organisations like how can we use technology to bring that fitness for these people even though we can't go to them physically? And I mean, it's kind of been shared already, but making that human connection now without being able to physically be present someone is extremely challenging. You know what it's like being able to give a tactile cue to an athlete or to assess what's wrong with them in person. Like that's so much easier to do and we don't really have that now. So I agree with these. I share about how it's kind of forced us to rethink exactly how we're going about doing our craft. And it's it's a good and a bad thing because inherently certain groups do not benefit from this. Like we've had classes. And we do it all the time as well, that we've got classes where we have hearing and visually impaired individuals in the same group and and on. Zoom, when you have this like it's been bumpy trying to conduct a class for everyone when their class puts someone who is visually impaired, who's who doesn't know that the camera, even though is facing them, they don't know that it's not perfectly very wanted to be at the same time with them verbally explaining something like my hearing. But he has no idea what's going on. So we're frantically trying to sign or type to him. So that's been a bit bumpy as well. I guess it's a limitation of what we're doing now. And the other thing that I think is a good thing that has come out of all this, everybody coming together online, is that it reinforces now. Now everyone has like a shared struggle is very obvious. And so it kind of reinforces to our community, at least, they're like, hey, look, this is a safe space for you to open up if you're not feeling too good. You know, the narrative about constant positivity sometimes can be a bit contrived, feels a bit forced. It's like you need to be positive. Pressure's on you. You have to portray a happy image to everybody all the time. And I think because this affecting everyone, like we have had a unique chance now to. When we hold our Zoom socials and like the aunties and uncles and the young kids and adaptive athletes all come together and just talk. They get a chance to kind of feel safe in knowing that, hey, if I don't feel too good or I'm kind of gone, I have a community here. I have access to someone who is willing to try and help me out, even if I'm doing too well themselves. So I guess there's been one benefit of all that's happened. Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:38:52] Yeah. Thanks for that. I mean, I, I think it's so wonderful that you are able to pull these different communities together in the one space and then have them kind of meet this maybe, you know, in a physical space, they would not normally have had a chance to bump up against each other. So usually before we close, we have one question that we'd like to pose to all our guests. We'll start with you, Dwayne. If you had a magic wand and I know you have many, honey. What would you change about the way, you know, our society is arranged at the moment? And if you could, you know, make maybe it's sports or anything else really more inclusive. What would you do with that?

Dwayne Lau: [00:39:38] Yes, I. I think I. Being a fat kid. I think it's necessary to be able to help educate us, inspire bigger sized children who may not be very sporty. So I think if fat kids can know, hey, don't worry, let's let's have fun. This particular sport, you know, I wouldn't call it a syllabus, but something that can inspire them because I think there's Tough Club, so it feels as though when you're a fat kid, you're doomed for a fat lifestyle unless. And it's always an inspiring story that causes them to change. You know, are a lot of like bodybuilders now who used to be fat kids. But I feel that if that inspiration can come at a very early age in primary schools, something that can inspire them. A program. Take away the Tough Club, the shaming, you know, it's something that can. Hey, this is something you can do. If we can come up with that. I think the world will be a better place. There'll be lesser shaming. There'll be people with more confidence. You know, people will be more confident by themselves about their bodies and about their energies. So that's what I'd like to change if I had the power.

Petrina Kow: [00:40:44] I think you are in some ways doing that already. Dwayne, so thank you for that. Michelle, how about you? If you had a little magic wand, what would you do with that?

Michelle Yeo: [00:40:52] There's a lot of things I would do that. But I feel like over the past few years, the tennis community has been getting more and more inclusive. This this was done through team events like into schools and team tennis leagues. But I feel like what would help the tennis community become more inclusive would be maybe organising more charity events and volunteer work. Personally, I have taken part in a few, too. I think I believe two years back I took part in a tour, a volunteer charity work for one of the four WTA that was organised by WTA. And so in this event, we are introducing younger kids to the tennis. So I through this, I found it is very rewarding. And another example, when I my friends and I, when we were in China, we also took part in the coaches conference. So these are some examples of the charity work. But I feel like we could do more as a team in this community. We could hold more to charity and volunteer and opportunities for the tennis community to not only make the tennis community community bigger, but it can also help us bond and become closer.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:42:14] I love that, Michelle. I think more sports for good, tennis for good is definitely something that could really empower and include more people who are generally don't have the opportunities to do this. I think that's a great segue way to you, Moses. You've been in the business of trying to do more opportunities, more events to enable youth at risk, seniors and also people with disabilities over the years. And so kind of moving moving that for, you know, if you had that magic wand, then what would be one thing that you would do to make these port sector more inclusive?

Moses James: [00:42:51] I think if I had that magic, one thing I do is weave it and somehow get everybody on the same page. All the key stakeholders, like from governing bodies to the, you know, gyms, private sectors, to the end users, to people who are working in charities and looking for programs like. This is a good chance right now what has happened. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of advocacy coming up. People are speaking out for the fitness industry, trying to get it up and running in. Everyone's coming together now. And if everybody's on the same page about inclusion and all the good they want to do and how we're going to get it done without having to, you know, slide your own agenda again. I that's that's going to make a huge difference. That's what I'd use that magic wand for.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:43:40] So getting more alignment and making sure that we're all on the same page and that there's clarity in it being a party as we move forward. Thank you for that, Moses. How about you, Theresa? How would you use your magic wand?

Theresa Goh: [00:43:53] I think I'm pretty much on the same page with the with Moses. And I think if we all had a clearer vision to work towards without hidden agendas, I think that would be really helpful. No diversion. I think for me, it would just be on kind of my own selfish point of view because I used to be a Paralympian. I think just being able to see better equality on that stand would be something I would. I'm looking forward to. I think I've seen a lot of progress over the past number of years and in being able to see people take disabled athletes seriously and taking our craft seriously. Not kind of seeing us as a second hand Olympic Games. I think that would. Well, that would be ideal. Anything. For this. It boils down to the very, very basic essence of seeing a disabled person as a person. And then you build from there, because I think a lot of times that is the from that foundation of how you view a person with disability. Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:45:23] So changing mindsets is what I heard as what.

Theresa Goh: [00:45:27] Mind sets and other things,

Laurindo Garcia: [00:45:29] Mindsets and also elevating the craft. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Ok. Thank you so much for all of those ideas. And we're putting that out into the universe and hopefully ah ah ah. Our wishes and our magic wands will, will come through. We're in the homestretch. In a minute, Dwayne, you'll be taking us out with a song. Now I know there's a story behind the song that you'll be offering us today. What is that story? Please, please tell us more.

Dwayne Lau: [00:45:57] Well, I was commissioned by the Esplanade Flipside committee to write a show for this this program. And it was called. So I wrote the show and it's called Hashtag Goals. And it's about basically achieving your goals in life. And if you don't have a goal, basically you don't the vision. You can't do anything. So you have to set goals. And I wanted the show to be about my fitness journey. So I thought, okay, I need I need to have, like, a key song about. About working out. And I need to show kids that I have become fit. Oh, yes. You know. So how can I do this? And I have to show kids that I am also a performer. Musical theatre performer. That I can sing. I can dance can. And I can bloody well thought. I'm like a quadruple threat. So I thought, OK, maybe I I'll find a song. So I thought, you know, I chose a song. You Can't Stop The Beat by Hairspray. So, you know, and I thought, OK, can't stop the beat. That's quite nice because, you know, don't stop. won't stop. Keep going. And it's about it's about consistency and continuity. Right. And so I thought, OK. So I rewrote the lyrics to Can't Stop The Beat. And basically the entire song is a song where I do HIIT. So I'm doing Swinging Kettle Bells. I'm doing burpees. I'm doing crunches. I'm doing Chase The Rabbit. I'm doing a Russian Twist, Jumping Jacks, the works. And it's accompanied by Julian Wong. So it was quite fun to write. I wrote it was like, okay, no problem, I can do this. When I started choreographing for it. Right. And there was a choreographer for this thing, so I was like, oh my gosh, I really need to practice this so that when I'm performing it, I don't wanna die because I have to sound perfect right. So every day I did it as a workout, you know, like my normal routine. I would literally it will be HIIT because the song is four minutes. So it's literally one one HIIT routine. If you do Tabata, it's four minutes. Right. So is it really Tabata. So you're singing see at the same time. So I managed to do it and it was really fun because the audience's faces were like, what was going on? Is he singing his prerecorded? And I was like. No it's live. Because you would see me drenched. And I think, though think I was more worried about was my microphone getting spoiled and they wouldn't be able to hear me properly because the microphone would soak you my sweat. So I told the technicians, you know, you guys need to wrap it up so that it doesn't get soaked by my sweat. And I really want to do this because it was a journey about inspiring people I wanted to like. I think Petrina, I mentioned earlier the hashtag that I use is: keep inspiring. And I think it's very important that we in whatever we do, we inspire people because people have inspired me in my life. And that's why I do what I do. And if I can't inspire other people, then there's no point in life, basically, you know, because you don't live for yourself. So I wrote I, I wrote this song, and I hope you guys enjoy it and you are inspired to keep on going well, wherever endeavours you have. Don't stop the beat.

Petrina Kow: [00:48:48] I have to say, Dwayne, you could probably, you know, do a very successful online, like aerobics class, you know, where you just teach people this exact routine and call it, you know, wanna to be a quadruple threat? And, you know, everybody that sing, dance, act and swing kettlebell at the same time. I'll tell you. I'll sign up for that. Once again,

Laurindo Garcia: [00:49:12] A musical HIIT

Petrina Kow: [00:49:12] A big big. And you can put up a show at the same time. Right. Once again, a big, big thank you to all our guests today. Moses James from Innervate Fitness. We have Michelle Yeo, Theresa Goh and Dwayne Lau. Thank you all for coming here. And for more information on our guests and their work. Make sure to check out the Inclusively website for details. Follow us on Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube, and you'll be notified when new episodes are out. You can listen to us as you work out, right? Please, of course, remember to like this podcast and submit a review, if you haven't. Your feedback will really help us to improve. And you're most welcome.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:49:51] And that's our show for today. So until next time, I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:55] And I'm Petrina Kow thanks for listening.

Covid 19 has been a catalyst for Asia's corporate world to rethink the future of work. In this episode Petrina and Laurindo hear how co-working spaces have adapted from The Great Room's Jaelle Ang. Lu-Lyn Chang from Bray Leino Splash shares creative ways for maintaining connection with teams in isolation. Shashi Nathan from Withers KhattarWong explains how the court system has gone virtual. Carrie Tan from Daughters of Tomorrow considers the impact of working from home on domestic workers. And songwriter Miss Lou explains how shifting online could make a performer's life more sustainable.

*TRANSCRIPT*

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of inclusively in the series, we'll be asking the question, how has the pandemic help change people's lives and what lessons we have learned that could make the post pandemic world more inclusive? I'm your host Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:15] And I'm Petrina Kow. Welcome. Today's theme is all about work and I think all of us have been probably in our lives. This is the area that has had the biggest shifts and biggest sort of seismic movements for most of us who have been working. And for me at least, I feel like, you know, it it kind of dawned on me with the work that I do, it's like, oh, I could have been doing this all my life. Why didn't I do this before? You know, and I'm very blessed. I'm very, very grateful that I'm still able to do a lot of work and in this time. And so for me, it's been really interesting just finding new audiences, finding new clients internationally, which is something I would never have, you know, thought to kind of pursue. But then it's like, oh, yeah, I can have a Canadian client. Yeah, I can you know, I can have claims from all over the world because I can see them, you know, in this way. So it's been really interesting for me just to to kind of broaden my idea of what work can be like, you know, at my end.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:01:24] I feel I'm pretty privileged. I have been working remotely and working in remote teams for the past 16 years. So I'm feeling kind of comfortable in a setup like this. But what has been the real disruption at home is my husband has now been working at home for the first time in his broadcast media and they never thought that he and his teams would be shifting to working from home. So now we're having to work out how to navigate and share the space together at home. And so for this part, because I had to kick him out and kind of move him to the other area because this is the better sounding room. So it's been interesting for him. And he's already going into the three month period because they they started quite early. But all in all, it's been pretty good. We've been both very productive and I'm feeling kind of lucky. And I know not everybody has that same same situation.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:21] I'm very excited to get right into it because I got a packed show. We have got five guests in the show today. And, you know, apart from looking at small businesses and medium to large enterprises, we're also gonna be talking to a lawyer in Singapore to think about how the legal system is continue through this lockdown in this period. I suppose like virtual courtrooms and things like that. And we'll also be speaking to a matinee executive who's led a transition from brainstorming in person to brainstorming and isolation and having to make decisions that way. So it's all gonna be very, very exciting.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:00] Plus, we'll have an executive director of a non for profit who's been helping women from low income families gain employment. That is Carrie Tan from Daughters of Tomorrow. Carrie will be offering a perspective on how the workforce of the future in the post pandemic world could be more inclusive. And finally, we'll also be having a guest artist today, a jazz songwriter and performer, Miss Lu.

Petrina Kow: [00:03:21] Yeah, but to kick us off, I'd like to introduce our very first guest. She is the CEO and co-founder of a lovely coworking space here in Singapore and in the region. And I think there is talks of expansion of a great room. Ladies, please welcome Ms. Jaelle. Hello. Hi, Jaelle.

Jaelle Ang: [00:03:42] Hi.

Petrina Kow: [00:03:42] So tell me, I mean, you're in in a way, as a coworking space, you've kind of been the solution, right, in a way to sort of deal with that transition between sort of traditional offices and people wanting to be a little bit more nimble and not have to deal with, like, massive overheads and catering to that kind of group of people. But but for you guys, too, you've had to kind of do the lockdown and people can't gather in those office spaces anymore. What has been the experience for you guys in this pandemic?

Jaelle Ang: [00:04:12] It's been very interesting because our business has been so much about creating a beautiful physical space that people want to be in. They want to be very productive and they want to connect with people and press clients and kind of attract like minded people. And all of a sudden they can't come in anymore. They can't make that connection any questions that they need it to. So who are we and what's our value? Continuing from this point, I think what's interesting is that we learn that we actually more just a physical space. We are a community. Then how then do we justify and push the boundaries on the notion of community, help them perform at the office or continue to engage and have these dialogues with people? So it's been quite a learning journey. But I think with. Done quite a few experiments to help people either work better. So we've created Zoom backgrounds where people still want to show that they are in a very nice workspace, very productive workspace. It's gone viral. That really helped them. We've worked with people to help the members nail virtual meetings. So how to build rapport with other people. So really just trying to, you know, build that same value without having that physical.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:32] And I mean, for, you know, for your clients or obviously your tenants in the space. Have they come to you with any sort of specific requests or, you know, difficulties or things that they've sort of come, you know, experience for themselves? And you as perhaps the provider had to sort of respond to that you were not expecting?

Jaelle Ang: [00:05:56] The biggest thing what's interesting is that flex workspace. I mean, my position has always been about flexibility. And the big hypotheses or the big estimate is by 20, 30, 30 percent of all commercial workspaces would be inflects workspaces. And what the pandemic has done, it is become a catalyst accelerated. This moving to, what, 30 percent. So we've already known that it's a good counteract to, you know, short term business cycles, more market volatility, but it's going to propel us to work towards that even faster. And the conversations that we have, the dialogue that we have with business owners and leaders are. We don't know what's going to happen. Are we planning for three months, six months or two years? How many hits are we going to have? Are we planning for growth of downsize? Which geographies are we going to have? Are we planning for business continuity or is it decentralisation and having satellite locations? So all these questions are what they are asking. Again, we have no answers. We can't plan a different scenario. But the beauty of it is more than ever the realisation that we need flexibility and agility. It's our only contract, too, too, too. That uncertainty that we're all facing. So we have to kind of do it and work with them. And sometimes even we have to learn to be more flexible than we had expected to, because before that, we're thinking businesses will know what you know, what they need needed. Six months, maybe not three years like a traditional landlord, but 26 months. The truth is right now, sometimes, as we're planning the great return, which starts next week on the second of June, which want to get a sense of, you know, it's going to be 10 percent of our members coming back and they're going to be 30 percent. And up till today, when we ask them, some of them haven't quite decided. We think it's gonna be between 10 to 20 percent. But who knows? Because when we open in Hong Kong, everyone came back. It was very quiet, but everyone came back right after they opened. They were craving for the connection. They were craving to be, you know, even if it's a and a roomful of people who don't know they want to be not knowing together.

Petrina Kow: [00:08:08] Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, it just it remains to be seen or I may June with June 2nd would feel and look like I have some physical recordings as well. I have to go into the studio which is like, oh wow, how exciting. But I guess for it, for you is as well as your your tenants. Did you find yourself having to sort of, you know, pull new skills or perhaps. And were you all thinking about where else you might have gone to perhaps be a little bit more inclusive about, you know, how we create the space for perhaps potential new clients? Maybe.

Jaelle Ang: [00:08:47] I think what's been interesting is this, you know, different groups of people that we had expected them to be much later adopters, a flexible space. And you're starting to look at a could be you know, it could be the legal profession, designers, nonprofits, social enterprise or different types. And we're going on a journey to learn about your needs. And I think the Circuit Breaker has forced us to slow down. And this pause is helping us to really, you know, force us to think about not the usual suspects. A lot of our business is technology and financial services, but actually everyone needs this flexibility and how can we cater to them? So I would say it's a learning. It's a learning journey of even how to plan, you know, now recalling more broadly gathering. So it's not always meetings. Sometimes it's dialogue. It's gathering small events with different groups. And this is so much more willingness to, you know, collaborate, to partner and to to listen to the groups that you don't usually use.

Petrina Kow: [00:09:49] Yeah, that's wonderful. I can't wait to hear more. Thank you very much, Jaelle, for joining us and telling us about what's been going on at The Great Room. Next up, we have with us the chief marketing officer at Bray Leino Splash. Miss Chang Lu- Lyn. And she's also the co-founder of this company. Hello, Miss Lu-Lyn.

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:10:09] Hello Petrina. Thank you for having me.

Petrina Kow: [00:10:12] So I know we've been sort of chatting informally about, you know, this is your baby. This is your company that you've built from scratch with just the three of you, you know, early in the 2000s. And it's become the sort of multinational now. It's it's it's grown from just the three of you, right. To this big sort of start as a tech company. Right. You guys are the Internet business. So in a way, we think of the tech and the Internet companies as being very nimble, being very sort of like, you know, able to pivot and have been working from home. But what has the reality really been like for you guys in this time that you've had to manage such a massive operation?

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:10:55] Okay, so where a digital marketing agency in the main. Right. So what? Because of the nature of the business, I think with we've always had a habit of collaborating remotely. So, for example, we don't have a technical development team that is exclusively in Singapore. Our entire technical development team is hubbed out of Ho Chi Minh City. Right. My entire creative and animation illustrators are the writers. That team is completely hubbed in Kuala Lumpur. Realities of business, Singapore is very expensive to do business in and to hire, etc. So that's our business strategy. We have different hubs supporting our needs in different locations so that the staff are in the other offices are very used to collaborating with their colleagues on platforms such as Skype, on JIRA and Temple for project management. And I would have to say that the transition has been fairly easy and doesn't does not mean, you know, any jarring disruptions to work. And the other thing also is that for a long time now with we've had a flexible working arrangement at the office, started really when I became a mother years ago. And I wanted to have a way to be able to spend time with my children, but also contribute at work. Right. So we come to support any of our staff members who need to work from home or to opt for a part time working arrangement. And so I would say that that's really prepared as well for this transition to be able to support everybody and have them on different platforms, but still collaborating, you know, quite smoothly.

Petrina Kow: [00:12:57] It sounds like you guys sail through no new issues.

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:13:03] Well, it's actually been four months now, right, since we've been working when we started really, really early. Right out to Chinese New Year. You know, we decided that it was safer for everyone to just not commute anymore and to start working from home. So regionally, across all five offices in Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Ho Chi Minh City. Everybody was told to just stay put and and work from home. Right. But at the same time, also, we had to do a few things differently because it's a long time to not be in in a physical space. And, you know, working face to face. And so we had to be a little more mindful about how our people were working up mentally. Right. So so we had to make sure that we started doing more pulse surveys with them, which was something we never did before. Right. Because when you're in a physical space, through body language to mood swings, to tantrums and disagreements, you you have it all out. But remotely, then we need it to send up these poll surveys as our team. And we found that that actually, you know, despite all that experience with working remotely, that the pandemic does does make people feel a little bit more isolated. You know, a little bit more physically detached. And and and the survey that show that people wanted to have that that social interaction, that was something that they missed, that they felt little bit and anxious about. And we really wanted to make sure that in that case, we we created, you know, a structured Friday CCA kind of activity where, you know, we called it a company, a Covid Company activity, where we would bring teams together, you know, to go on virtual walks. You know, it's right now they're there in a room, one on Kahoot someplace playing Charades for prizes, you know, and then we're doing a cook-a-thon together. So these little things that you actually have to put in place and, you know, have people participate so that they can have a laugh, see each other, you know, and interact a little bit more. Right. So things that, you know, previously we never used to do because five o'clock people would just go for drinks together or they'll want to go home or go to a yoga class together. But right now, we have to be conscious and we have to actually, you know, put people and resources to planning and getting these things going.

Petrina Kow: [00:15:27] I love that. It's like me last night. I'm trying to enforce a a movie night with my kids. And god that was that that ended in disaster, you know, with like, you know, first of all, just even the choice of movie was was so, so fraught. So, yeah, I completely applaud. But the massive effort that I think a, you know, that you guys have had to sort of think about and do. But is there just one last question. I was wondering if if if this whole pandemic has has made you was prompted you to do things that you've never thought you would have to do or that really sort of did it, but it kind of send you in a bit of a existential crisis about what what you are doing and you know what this whole thing is about.

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:16:15] I think one of the things that became quite apparent to us was that we we have to actually make very conscious efforts to step up our game in terms of reaching out and communicating with our stuff. Right. And and it's easy to think of it as, oh, yeah. You know, emails, Skype messages on teams, you know, but but. We've had to, you know, actually put in place weekly calls individually with our team members to virtual town halls where we have everybody on a platform kind of listening to financial results or how they're planning to, you know, save pennies and trim cause and just just to do that kind of thing. Right. So definitely being a little bit more switched on about the frequency. Reaching out to people, talking to them, checking in all of those things, I think has has bought a new momentum to the way that we work with all with without employers. Thank you so much, Lou.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:24] Yeah, I think it's. It's really fascinating to hear that. I mean, and I don't. And I'm hoping your like like everybody else is like you, you know. And then really sort of looking out for their employees. And it sounds like, you know, that you're really doing above and beyond what most maybe other companies. But I'm hoping that this might inspire you if you're listening to to think about that, too, if you've not. I mean, I guess, you know, in this time, a lot of a lot of companies are working really hard to fight fires. Right. And to to just really get to the bottom line and sort of try and figure things out in a very, very real way. But for you guys to really sort of show the way and to sort of say that you're out there really looking after the well-being of your staff is is very inspiring. So thank you for that.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:09] Thank you, Lu-Lyn. Thank you. So please stay on the line also. Jaelle, please stay on the line. We're going to come back to you later. And I do love the idea of our team. Virtual team walks in house. There is just fantastic that idea. I want to bring into the conversation now Shashi Nathan, a partner at KhattarWong. Welcome to the show. Thanks for. Thanks for joining us.

Shashi Nathan: [00:18:32] Thank you, Laurindo. Thank you. Petrina, for inviting me to this podcast.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:36] So I understand that you're a criminal lawyer.

Shashi Nathan: [00:18:39] Don't hold it against me.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:41] So can you give our audience a bit of a better understanding of what type of cases you normally handle?

Shashi Nathan: [00:18:47] I do. Basically, everything to do with criminal law. So we do. I would say 70 percent of my work is white collar defence. And so we do things like insider trading, market fraud, corruption, cheating, forgery, that kind of case. Because he knows then I do blue collar work. I do. I act for clients involved in murder, drugs, rape, sexual offences. And I have a team that also does investigations. We do corporate investigations. So we had we help corporates do in-house investigations on maybe a rogue employee or financial misfeasance in the firm. So I've got my team of lawyers in my firm. They all do a little bit of that and I help out when I can.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:19:38] And how big is your team just to help us get an understanding of them?

Shashi Nathan: [00:19:41] I have six lawyers, my team. But we are in a much larger flow. We have hundred and thirty lawyers in the firm and the firm is part of an international law firm where we have two thousand five hundred lawyers around the world. So I really think Jaelle and Lu-Lyn talk about the challenges. It's been a huge challenge for law firms generally, not just in not just in Singapore, but across the world. My firm is I wouldn't say it's unique, but we had some unique problems to be with because we have offices in 18 cities and in a different time zones, different types of different styles of working, different areas of law that they practice. So everyone has different needs and different ways how they've had to adjust to the epidemic. My colleagues in Milan, for example, when the pandemic hit Italy, it hit it really, really hard. I mean, I have some of my colleagues who got hit by the virus themselves. So emotionally, because, you know, these people, it does it does bring everybody's mood down, not just Singapore, but, of course, the partners of mine who I have known for many years and they've been the hospital. One of them just release hospital recently. So you see how the infrastructure, different countries deals with the epidemic and you try to find solutions in different countries.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:14] But in terms of your Singapore team, are you 100 percent working remotely now or is there some kind of exceptions to that rule?

Shashi Nathan: [00:21:22] So some of the work we do considered essential services. So the government has allowed us some exemptions. So I have a skeletal team in the office from the finance team, some of the I.T. infrastructure teams, legal aid and then individual teams of lawyers going on as it when they have to do so. So we need to get individual clearance when they want to go in. We have court order. Courts have been closed for two months. Some hearings go on as far as the hearings where a person's life or liberty is involved. So things like bail applications or someone's on death row, those cases are still going on. What we've done is that we've done all these hearings with Zoom.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:10] Oh wow.

Shashi Nathan: [00:22:10] So we've had to change the way we we behave in court, you know, because you don't know which camera is looking at you.

Petrina Kow: [00:22:18] I myself am so fascinated with that. How do you do a court like thing?

Shashi Nathan: [00:22:23] So what happens is.

Petrina Kow: [00:22:23] On Zoom.

Shashi Nathan: [00:22:26] Even the Court of Appeal, which is the highest court in Singapore recently, they've got a few cases of zoom. So you have some judges sitting in the physical court. Some they're just dialing in from home. The lawyers usually in from home, the accused or the criminal is dialing in from the prison, the prosecutor calling in from his office. And all the cameras are in. So what we haven't done is an actual contested hearing say we don't do a trial because I wouldn't be comfortable cross-examing a witness behind the camera. I want to see that person live. I didn't think I'd be dead. But I don't particularly like to do it if I really do question the witness. I like that person be in front of me. I want to be able to observe his or her body language, his or her reactions to the questions and the environment. The camera does catch some of it. But you miss a lot of things when the person behind the camera, you also don't know who else is in the room with that person and whether he is he or she has access to other information that document. So we've not done trials, contested hearings, but yes, appeals, other urgent matters. We've been using Zoom.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:23:39] But do you do you think that there could ever been in the pipeline that we could get to the point where the trial process is actually gone virtual as well?

Shashi Nathan: [00:23:47] We've we've done it in Singapore already. There have been cases in Singapore where we tried to procure a witness who is overseas and cannot come to Singapore for one reason or the other? And if parties come to a concession that, OK, we can't get him, rather than not having the trial will allow him to give evidence by video? Not my my preferred choice. Some some other lies. I'm okay with it. But sometimes you have to you've got to get the case moving and the law allows for a video evidence to be given. And of course, you need the court, the court to agree to that as well. But it's been given some of get experts say you need a a scientist or a medical doctor who for some reason can come in. He's not giving direct evidence on the case, but his scientific expert evidence. Those kind of cases, there's no there's no issue him giving evidence by camera. No, there is no prejudice, certainly. And so I think we would have to look at each case and each witness differently.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:24:53] So it sounds as though that the measures and the processes were in place. It's it's sounding almost like it was smooth sailing. I mean, did anything go and unexpected given the pandemic?

Shashi Nathan: [00:25:05] No, it's I think it's been quite smooth sailing since we've all been on lockdown. The other aspect is not just court. I mean, we also as a business, we have to be in regular contact with clients. I also have to have regular calls with my team of lawyers, with my management. So I do things. I find this quite different. If I spend a lot of time on calls every day, you know, you know, I use it in the normal working day. I go to the office, I'll do it. I know some people believe it, but I do work sometimes. I still go around and have a chat with my colleagues. I go out and have a coffee. The day passes by and you know it. There's a flow to it here. I do an hour meeting and the next thing I know at the next meeting is starting at the next meeting starting. And suddenly it's like five thirty in the evening. And I have done it. I was six meetings and I think it physically and mentally more tired than when I was sitting in the office and trying to do some work. So it's different. It is different between the court because you've got a court. You've got to regulate the you're in the court room. You don't feel tired at all. But visiting the office in front of a computer does greet you. And I felt that personally for the last two months,

Laurindo Garcia: [00:26:23] There are many people that we've been speaking to also saying the same thing that, you know, in theory, during things at home should theoretically feel more relaxing, but also disease back to back calls. And you need to compensate for that. Lack of physical interaction means that you're having to work harder just to stay engaged and really understand what's going on there. I'm curious, though, the one final question before we move to two to bring Carrie into the conversation, which is then if you're doing a lot of the court work or virtually, how does that affect your wardrobe that are here?

Shashi Nathan: [00:26:57] I think I've talked about judges, lawyers at my table, other lawyers. I usually wear a suit, a black suit when I'm in court. And I know some of my friends. What they did was they wore a suit and a tie. But there wore their boxers below the camera. I was going to do that. But then my wife gave me a look. And I said OK. So I actually I was at home. I had a full suit on, but no socks. And I did argument, but it's it's I could ever want. Do you do that? Just to make myself you happy that I could appear in the court in my boxer shorts. But my wife, who obviously makes the rules here, didn't agree.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:27:40] Like you went barefoot just to stay grounded.

Shashi Nathan: [00:27:42] Yes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:27:42] It's almost theatrical.

Shashi Nathan: [00:27:45] I had to break up a little bit of the rules.

Petrina Kow: [00:27:49] I'm sorry. You're not the only lawyer I would have tried.

Shashi Nathan: [00:27:51] Right. There were guys who, who've done it the boxer shorts who sent me their pictures after.

Petrina Kow: [00:27:57] Oh, just what little what little thrills that can sort of get us through the just these small things make us happy. I was I was in a squeeze in one quick little question. I was curious to ask you about. I mean, now that you've come through this whole experience and maybe, you know, moving forward, I have you guys that have tackled it as a business and also maybe in terms of the legal system, how we can use the lessons from this pandemic to to figure out what we can do a little bit more inclusively. I mean, I, I'm loving that. I'm hearing that we can actually dial in, you know, witnesses from overseas, which maybe would not have been an option before. But what else do you think could be done? And we were we were just sort of casually discussing. But what about.

Shashi Nathan: [00:28:40] What about it wasn't an option. It was always an option. It just wasn't a popular option. But now reality is sunk in and we have to use it if we like. Trials get delayed. But, you know, when when I saw this topic about inclusivty, I thought you were talking about how different industries and how inclusive we are of people. Is that off topic?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:29:03] No not all all.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:04] Totally on on topic.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:29:06] What's your take on it.

Shashi Nathan: [00:29:07] I wanted to share what I did with I spoke to Petrina about very briefly is that when I started practicing as a lawyer in Singapore 26 years ago, I didn't want to be a criminal lawyer initially. And somehow I fell into this route that I became a criminal lawyer. But one of the things that startled me was the preponderance of Indian male lawyers who are criminal laywers you know, you never hear of a female Chinese or male Chinese or female Malay lawyer, who's at the top of the game for the criminal law practice, is always some Indian male. And I didn't realize it until I entered the practice. And then, of course, over the years, it's true. I mean, I can look around and I know who are the main players in the game and they all male in Indian. And I don't think it's I don't think it's a question of of race or stereotypes. It's a it's a client perception. It's really a client perception, because what I did about 12 years ago is that I started hiring females in my team. I have I have a good mix of male and female lawyers in my team. But I've probably got more females on my team that most of the other large firms. And for them to do criminal law, it was already quite a big thing because you don't expect a Chinese girl to be doing criminal law. They would do corporate or intellectual property or something sexier. But you know, who wants to do blood and guts, right? So when I first introduce one of them has become already a partner in my firm. That shows how well she's done. But it was it was a bit of a jolt to the system because you'd rarely see a female Chinese person doing high profile criminal cases. And I felt that that was important because you need to change things. It's not a question of whether you can do it or not. Of course you can do it. The question with turning the mindset of the client. And this is difficult. The clients could be across the board. You can have Chinese, Indian, Malay, foreigners who are Singapore, anyone. If they had trouble for criminal problem. They'll say, I want an Indian lawyer.

Petrina Kow: [00:31:28] Really?

Shashi Nathan: [00:31:29] It's strange. But it's it's so I would I mean, I would sometimes bring in one of my young Chinese lawyers to sit in and say, look, you know, this is my fee. But, you know, she's very good. She'd be working in me. And, you know, this is her fee. Why did you consider that? This guy who has spent an hour telling me he cannot afford my fees. The woman I give him a slightly cheaper option. But, you know, she's very good. It's okay I'll pay your fees. Wow. Oh, you know, it's changing. It's it is changing because I think you're getting more visibility now. But certainly when I first started. Forget about a female Indian lawyer. She won't event get into the room for the clients.

Petrina Kow: [00:32:12] Really?

Shashi Nathan: [00:32:14] Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:32:15] Wow. This is.

Shashi Nathan: [00:32:16] So you have many male Chinese lawyers. No problem. Did they get a good fair share pieces? But the perception is client driven, not from the industry. The industry is trying to open up one to get more people. If I wonder the wider skillset, I want people with different experiences, different viewpoints of life to come in to the market because that's the best way you could build your teams. But clients are the biggest hurdle cases I have to. Even if I don't want to do it because I want to do something else. If you're going to keep the client, I have to get involved.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:32:54] I'm so happy to hear that you're putting in extra time to do the client education work because it is so sorely needed, not only in the legal profession, but also other industries as well, where they're trying to diversify their workforce. But at the end of the day, it's the clients who are kind of making call. We want this person, not that person. So I'm so glad to hear that you're putting in those hard miles so early. Please stay with us as we move the conversation forward. I'd like to invite Carrie Tan to the show. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. And your executive director of Daughters of Tomorrow as I write. Carrie.

Carrie Tan: [00:33:31] Yes. Hi, Laurindo and Petrina. Thanks for having me on the show. Yes, my day job, I am the executive director of Daughters of Tomorrow, which is a charity that enables livelihood opportunities for low income women in Singapore. But for the purposes of this discussion, I'd also like to mention that in my spare time, I volunteer with a social enterprise called Anisya that provides employer transfers for foreign domestic workers in Singapore who wish to change employers or after they finish a contract. And this particular social enterprise tries to provide this employment bridging without any cost or agent fees to the domestic worker. So why do I find that is relevant for our discussion today? Because I'm going to be speaking on behalf of the female or women's perspective in this Covid pandemic. And I think both groups of women form a very important part of our value chain when we are looking at, you know, the whole transformation of how our work life is going to look like in future.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:34:39] So what have some of the things that you've been seeing? And I really welcome you to kind of talk across the different work and there are different organisations that you are involved in. Well, what are some of the things that you've observed in how employers are reacting to the pandemic with things, with the lockdown things, or how some employees are having to be deployed and how that impacts, you know, the women that you are then also having to supporters as well. I mean, what are some of your observations?

Carrie Tan: [00:35:08] So during the pre Covid time, one of the biggest breakthroughs that Daughters of Tomorrow managed to create was in the area of retail and F&B sector hiring because for the longest time, these sectors practice this shift work rostering, right? And we finally, you know, diagnosed the issue as to how come local women couldn't find or sustain jobs in these sectors. And it was because of childcare constraints, like because of the limitation of formal childcare hours to 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. taking roster shift work in any industry wouldn't work for them. So actually, between 2018 to most recently Daughters of Tomorrow has successfully converted many employers in these sectors to practice what we call core and stable scheduling, which basically means giving office hours to non office jobs so that these mothers can go to work, get jobs in these sectors, and to be able to pick up their kids from childcare. But then moving into Covid times, I think even in PMET jobs and we're seeing this office hours is disappearing because as people shift to working from home, our daily lives, our caregiving responsibilities and our workplace responsibilities are all merging. And I've been hearing from many women how they are under the double burden of having to take care of both fronts with the heavy expectation that whether it's from their bosses or from your co-workers of a faster response time, because you’re from home you don't need to travel and you could be online all the time. And I think this is creating quite a unsustainable work practice that really we need to look into. So that's one particular area that I know, creating some time boundaries for the new normal of work. Right. Then the other thing is also, of course, for the low wage women that we work with. Gone. Gone are the opportunities in retail and F&B for, I don't know, the foreseeable few months. So we've already started pivoting our employment bridging efforts to channel them to the caregiving sectors like the eldercare, the nursing homes are still operating, our old people still need looking after. So there is still continuing to be positions that are open for them. And we are increasingly starting to work with tech companies to ask them if they have openings for our women. We have seen some successes of having women take on Home-Based administrative jobs as well as jobs in the AI sectors. So we’re very encouraged. And I think with continued efforts to reach out to this group of employers, we are looking at bringing new channels of industries for job opportunities for the women.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:37:58] That's great. I mean, so a lot of the changes that employers have been making during this time, particularly around being more cognisant of of flexibility, if you're a caregiver or working parent as well, have been addressed with some more flexibility now. And, um, and I know that this is something that you've been advocating for for a long time. And I'm just curious now that you're seeing at least a glimmer of hope with some of these changes being made. I mean, what's what's what's your take on that on on what's taken the employers  so long?

Carrie Tan: [00:38:33] Well, I think it's just very human and people are afraid of change. And I think you guys mentioned the culture of Asian culture. It's so hard. Just not having visibility, I think, create some anxiety in employers and bosses as well is going to require some adjustment. I think both on employer’s side, and employee’s side. I wanted to kind of bring in a point that Jaelle made earlier about creating beautiful workplaces. Right. And this is the point where I want to connect to our domestic workers, because in the new normal, our homes are going to be all workplaces and the army of people out there keeping it, keeping our homes beautiful, clean, organised and conducive for everyone to stay together, cooped up and productive and healthy is going to be our domestic workers and our homes are their workplaces. And increasingly in the circuit breaker, we’re seeing that domestic workers are suffering a lot of stress because you know that they can go out even on their off days. And with all the employees being at home, you know, adults, children, they have to cook three meals a day. Sometimes they're running out of recipes. There's no clear communication of when they can rest. And even in the rest times, do they have the freedom to move around the house? And these are all, I think, some things we need to think about, because I think without the domestic workers helping us at home as women, I think we will have a lot on our hands. Right. Being parents and cleaning and caregiving and working. So I think this value chain is something that we need to look into and employers can take the lead. I think whether it's in the office workplace or the workplace at home, employers can take the lead to carve out time boundaries right. Of personal time versus work time? Personal space and workspace. So there can be a more sustainable environment for the people who work for us and hopefully for the people that we work with as well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:40:39] I'm glad that you raise the issue of domestic workers. I think that that's definitely a blind spot in the national conversation about the situation for migrant workers in the country and across the region as well. One final point before hand it back to you, Petrina. In every episode, we ask our inclusion experts to imagine that they were bestowed with a world changing magical power after a pandemic. So so, Carrie, my question to you is that if you are given this power, what are your top three things that you would do to make the employment sector more inclusive?

Carrie Tan: [00:41:13] Wow. I wouldn't call myself an inclusion expert. And the things I wish for are not something that only employers can do, I think is something that maybe we as a society can try to imagine, reimagine and create for the future. Number one is I hope that we have more sustainable care structures in place. One example could be that we could have a contingent workforce of domestic workers and caregivers so that when we have to let our own domestic workers go on break, on leave or rest, there is another pool of shared resources that we can tap into. And if we don't have to step in ourselves, not that we don't want to, but it can be very draining. Number two, I think creating a new framework for what is good work life balance while working from home, I think, would be tremendously important. In fact, I don't think that by having proper balance of personal time versus work time is necessarily detrimental to productivity. In fact, you know, studies have shown that if you are able to toggle amongst different kind of activities that tap different parts of your brain, you can actually increase creativity in people. Right. And problem solving abilities. So I think there's an opportunity there for people to really think and reimagine how the new work would look like. And thirdly, in the grand scheme of things, probably a very tangible ask is for companies who can afford it to consider subsidising the telco subscriptions costs of their low wage employees. Many of our women live in rental flats. It doesn't come with, you know fibre broadband. They're living off prepaid phone cards. Right. And it takes a toll. You know these costs take a toll. And if you are providing a job to them in which they can work from home, I think to be considerate of this significant additional cost to their daily expenses and helping them with it would really go a long way to include them in the workplace.

Petrina Kow: [00:43:19] Thank you so much, Carrie, for these these wonderful ideas and I think very actionable. It feels like it. It can be done. Let's hope. Let's hope this conversation reaches the right ears. I'm just I'm so glad you mentioned the domestic helpers, because I don't have one at the moment. And every day I look at the layer of dust all over everything, and I weigh it against what else I have to do. And I just go let the layer of dust be there, because I guess I just can't be asked anymore, can I? Do I want to scrub of that mildew? Maybe not today. What if it just gathers another centimetre? And you know, we'll deal with it then. Is usually my thought process. So if you can have a solution to this interim group of contingent cleaning workers that I can employ, I'll be very happy to contribute to that pile. My husband came up with a genius idea of there of these dish washing services where you can collect all your dishes for the day, you know, put it in a bag and then tomorrow I'd like laundry. It comes back, washed and ready to go. So another business idea for you to.

Carrie Tan: [00:44:44] Let’s discuss it. It's a great job for the neighbourhood, right?

Petrina Kow: [00:44:51] Yeah, I invested in the machines. I've been using that since. But thank you so much to all our guests. Our last guest is also perhaps the most glamorous one. She is known as the glamour vintage songbird, Miss Lou. And I've really enjoyed watching you not only live in person when you're performing in all your life venues, but of late you've been coming online to show us what we can do with some of this music and entertainment, because obviously with as artists and as as musicians, you have no venues to sing in and form in anymore. So welcome faith in the listeners. Lou, could you tell us a little bit about what you've done to sort of react to this pandemic?

Miss Lou: [00:45:39] Yeah, so. Hi, Patrina. Laurindo. Thank you for having me on this podcast. Yeah. So one of the first few things to go was the life venues and bars. Those were the moment that hit. I think my husband and I, we quickly had a discussion and we said I think I told him, I think it's going to get worse and it's gonna go down quite quickly. And then the wedding started getting postponed or canceled. And we really had to huddle together as a team because I called on this company called Loud and clear as well. So loud and clear is founded by my husband and myself. And right now, he's a three person team. We have a technical personnel with us. And together we manage all of our live music. We also organise events and we also manage all of the performance contracts and things like that for my husband and myself, course, both of us, our full time professional musicians. So when the gig started getting canceled, we we had to think of other solutions. And thankfully, we were already on track to move a lot of our performances and our activities online. For example, from the start on November last year, I had already decided, OK, I want to kind of pivot to more. Off. I want to do more of my own original material rather than, you know, relying on corporate events and the weddings, which have been a really, really good. Had has been sustaining my entire practice. So I had made a conscious decision last November. Thing we need to kind of do more things online and that kind of set the tone for what quickly happened in January and February. Yeah, and I think at the beginning of the year, things were still pretty good with the with the events side of things. So call it divine intervention or something. But we we thankfully had a lot of stores and our reserves to be able to type through these next few months as we tried to move things online. So because the events started dwindling, we already had our our equipment ready with us because his my husband's other company provided these equipment for us to use for our live performances. And because we had this in place, we could be thought of. OK, so now that this is not being used. How else can we convert it and continue our life performances to bring our music to audiences? So we quickly went to YouTube and looked up how to Lifestream. And we quickly went to places like Sim Lim Square before the Circuit Breaker kicked in to get all the equipment that we needed. And we looked at what we already had. OK. We had this camera. How do we connect this to our computer? How do we go? From our studio. So this current studio that I'm recording this in right now, this used to be just a rehearsal room and recording studio. But now it's our live streaming studio. We've kind of converted it same. Same, but different. Now we've built in the the visual aspect into our daily workflow. Yeah. So we had to quickly find a resources online and many people were actually really quite happy to help. And we realised that. Okay. Now that we can livestream, this also opens up a whole new world because we can actually using a zoom call. We can approach people, guests from overseas, bring them on the show, and you suddenly don't have those cost issues off. What if I have to fly a guest in from the US, for example, where we're going to put them up? All those things disappear and suddenly with in light, there is the dark side of things, but there's also the really positive side if you choose to look at it, and that's how we choose to look at things, how can we get this going? How can we continue to bring music to people and also for our own sanity? We need it to continue being creatively productive. And. Thankfully, we started our own YouTube Lifestream show series. So I have one and he has one. And we recently did a 12 hour livestream where we invited guests dialing in from L.A., from Thailand. We hit Miss Greece will come on the show to talk about how to how we can prepare for things. Yeah, sorry. Was it really makes me feel like other than just being a musician right now. We have already explored tap into our other creative outlets like how do we program ashore? How do we get our favourite guests, our favourite people, onto the show without any geographical constraints? And yeah, now, if you'd like, the world is our oyster. So really, there's a silver lining to this entire situation. And I think if you're willing to put in the work. Yeah, you'll be able to.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:27] It's wonderful. Yeah. And and I was very taken with what you're putting out online, too, because I think for the other performers, they were either waiting out the situation or they had quit the they felt a lot of resistance to the technical aspects of of being a performer. Right. And maybe because you and your husband are a great sort of complementary team. I know he's a saxophonist right. And and also, you think you're one of the few that are doing a subscription service to your performances and a pay per watch or something like that. So you're you're thinking about monetising your performances. And I'm I'm just curious as to what how that sort of came about and, you know, what was the response like and is it sustainable? Do you feel like, you know, this is this is kind of the way to go now?

Miss Lou: [00:51:17] So there are actually a lot of people, a lot of touring musicians who are who have really sustainable careers, even if you've even if most of us have never heard of them. And I think one of the turning points in how I view my career was I forgot who whose material it was, but I chanced upon someone's writing on how being a sustainable musician is more important than being a successful musician, because our view of what a successful musician or artist this is usually like the pop stars. Those were at the top of their game. But there's so many other people in that in the layers underneath that who are who have very fulfilling lives. They tour the record. They put out the music. They have audiences who love them. And that was the kind of career I wanted for myself. So. From there, I actually discovered a Web site called Patreon. So that's where I first got the idea of the subscription thing. And what that does is basically people who like your creative output, who like your work, they get to support you directly by giving you either a monthly contribution or a per project contribution, depending on what your what you expect output frequency to be like. So I thought, okay, if Patreon can provide that service and I already have a Web site that has this service, I don't need to go on Patreon. If people already are familiar with this concept of Patreon, then I can start my own on my own Web site. And I offer exclusive POCs to them. And then the same time, I get to build long term relationships with my friends. In that sense, I get to hear from them directly. I'm actually holding a Zoom call for the first time with my inner circle subscribers tomorrow afternoon to actually see who these people are because they've been supporting me. They've been commenting. They've been requesting for songs. And all I've seen are their comments, but not their faces and their names. Yeah. So I think that it pulls me closer to them and I get to directly offer them what they want.

Petrina Kow: [00:53:24] That's a wonderful. I mean, to be. Yeah. It's always, you know, I think as a musician on stage, you're you're I mean, you're there with your audience, but you don't really know. I mean, most people are kind of shy to kind of come up to you and say, hey, you know, I really enjoyed that, blah, blah, blah. But this really gives you that intimacy and that direct link with the people who are literally. Right. Supporting you. So I think that is just so genius in such a quick and nimble, you know, move on your part to sort of take this and turn this into something that is really fulfilling and interesting for you. And I think I'm very much looking forward to this myself. You're having a Broadway night. Excuse me.

Miss Lou: [00:54:05] Yes, yes. Yes. So.

Petrina Kow: [00:54:07] That's happening Sunday, right?

Miss Lou: [00:54:09] That's right. Sunday night at 8:00 p.m. So we're excited about it.

Petrina Kow: [00:54:13] Wonderful. Right. I'm not sure we'll be a good episode before that, but we will definitely try and spread the word. But thank you so much, Miss Lou

Miss Lou: [00:54:24] Thank you.

Petrina Kow: [00:54:24] For sharing with us your journey. Yeah, I am. Before we get to hear your beautiful, lovely voice, and I don't know if you guys heard this woman saying, but she is amazing. She also has such a beautiful look and presence. Right. She has this really lovely of cat eye glasses and she's always so, so glamorous, like sort of harking back to the abroad days of the 60s. This is my favourite era. So it's really been so wonderful to watch you onstage and watch your growth as well as an artist. But before you get to your lovely song, I think we want to go back round again to our guests to ask them what is the one thing that they would like to sort of let our listeners know? What's the one thing that you'd like to share. So perhaps we'll we'll we'll start with you again. Jaelle.

Jaelle Ang: [00:55:14] Since we're talking about work. I think post-pandemic what I like to see the workplace become its first seems to be much more respectful and more conscious of our wellness. I think that would be one thing I'd like to see. And and second thing would be how workspaces really need to be the modern Agora of learning more than just a functional workspace. It needs to be a place of natural growth, of learning from your experts were out in the field every day that learning should be continual and must energize and rejuvenate our journey. I think the last thing it's you know, when we get the chance to meet with everyone in person, I really hope that it's not going through the motion much more deeply engagement and much more appreciative of each moment that we have each other. And I think workplaces can achieve these three things. I'll be really happy about that.

Petrina Kow: [00:56:12] Thank you so much. Jaelle and it's Jaelle the founder, co-founder and CEO of The Great Room. Next, I'd like to call upon Miss Chang Lu-Lyn from Bayer. What was it? The long company name again. I know your company as Splash.

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:56:30] Yeah. Splash is fine.

Petrina Kow: [00:56:31] Yeah. What is the one thing?

Lu-Lyn Chang: [00:56:33] I think contrary to what you hear about, you know, the pandemic not being discriminatory, I think it does discriminate, discriminates against all those people who are less privileged than us, you know, less able bodied than us, less well-off than us. And so what? What I would really like to see is if there are any employers out there, you know, whether you're running a small business or, you know, a big corporation to really look at stepping up the. Flexible, working from home and the part time work. Hiring policies that you have. Because this will really and able people who, you know, are caregivers, mothers with children and and disabled people to be able to use their talents and be able to contribute and work at the same time in a known living. And it's really not so difficult as the pandemic has shown us. So when business goes back to usual, that's that's one thing I think, you know, that I would like to see.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:57:44] Thank you, Lu-Lyn for reiterating the point about flexible workplaces and providing that is an option for for you, for your teams. Thank you so much for that. I'd like to move now to Shashi Nathan. What's one thing that you want to do? You would like our audience to to know after this conversation?

Shashi Nathan: [00:58:02] One thing that I think resonated very strongly with me during the last few months is the fact that I think many of us take a lot of things for granted. Our friends, the social groups, we keep, our colleagues, the people we deal with on a day-to-day basis. The last two and a half months, I think it's something for me. How much you missed, how much you need that day to day interaction, that exchange of ideas. It would disappear. Laughing around. All those things are important. Take on Lu-Lyn's point. Not everyone has the benefit of doing that during this period. There are people who don't have that. Friends who send you delicious food regularly or things like that. Those things. Not just for this time of the year. What we're going through, those things are meaningful. They they remind you how lucky you are that you've got good people, good friends around you. So the only thing I want to say is that when we go back, let's not forget that in those days, only in times like this, that we remember who our friends are, the relationships we have. And because if you keep that in mind and don't take it for granted, when things go back to normal, you'll appreciate those friendships. Those collaborations. Those what relationships. And you will not maybe take it for granted that we all probably have done so in the past.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:59:42] Thank you, Shashi. I mean, remembering not to take our people in our lives for granted is I think is a very good reminder is especially in times like this, and we don't want this to this period. Just to be the end of that as well. Right. So thank you. Thank you so much. How are you? Carrie, what is what is one thing that you would like our audience to to know?

Carrie Tan: [01:00:04] I think this pandemic really throws out this situation where I think more and more people in society are going to be struggling because we don't know what the economy is going to look like, and when it is going to recover. In the past and so far we we've had this, you know, unconscious narrative, of , who are the “deserving” people in in society. Whether they're deserving of help, or are they  deserving of assistance and deserving of subsidies. And I hope that in the post pandemic world, will people have or develop more empathy for, you know, the common experience of struggle. And I hope that the word deserving can be removed from our national vocabulary, because you know, everyone could fall into hard times and need help at some point. I think if we can extend our graciousness and generosity and kindness amongst those of us who can afford it and are blessed enough to be able to afford it, we could do that. And the other thing is also to look out for our neighbours instead of looking out as in like to report them. Maybe we can look out for them and see whether we can help them. So I think this is an opportunity for people to come together and we need to be very mindful of falling into a very easy and tempting ways to become blaming, which is really a crisis response, a natural human crisis response but we can catch ourselves. And instead of blaming let’s be kinder to one another.

Petrina Kow: [01:01:35] There was so clear. Thank you very much, Carrie Tan from Daughters of Tomorrow and all our other guests. Jaelle from The Great Room. Miss Chang Lu-Lyn, Shashi Nathan and of course, Miss Lou. For more information on our guests and their work, make sure to check out the Inclusively website for details. And remember to like this podcast and submit a review. Your feedback will help us improve. And it's very, very welcome. Don't get us to like us on Apple Podcasts or follow us on Spotify or YouTube for notifications when we have got new episodes out.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:02:05] Miss Lu will be sending us off today with a song. Can you give us a bit of a insight on what you'll be performing and what's the what was your inspiration for choosing the song?

Miss Lou: [01:02:15] So this song is called Fresh Air, which I think everybody sorely needs right now as we're approaching the end of the circuit breaker period. And the funny thing is that I actually wrote this at the beginning of the circuit breaker and I had a vision. I thought to myself, while we're gonna be stuck in indorse for one month. At that point, it was supposed to be a month. And I thought, well, this is something that we're all going to be craving and looking forward to. So I thought I had already written half of this song, but I completed it with this in mind. And the chorus, which you hear later says Loving you is like fresh air. And I didn't write. Being loved by you is fresh air. And it kind of reminds ourselves that ourselves that we can be that fresh air for other people. We can be the change you want to see in the world. Right. We can be the people to bring light to other people. So this is the kind of the love and the relationship and the neighborliness that we want to. Yeah. We want to bring across with this song.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:03:10] Thank you so much for that Miss Lou. I think we're all looking forward to a little bit more fresh air and a little bit more love. So that's all for our show today. Miss Lou will be taking us out. But until next time. I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [01:03:25] And I'm Petrina Kow. Thanks for listening.

The coronavirus has pushed the global health system to its limits. Sadly access to testing and treatment is unequal.

Amidst lockdowns should mental health services be classified as essential? And how do health care workers cope in cities without reliable public transport or supplies of personal protective equipment?

Inclusively hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia examine health as a human right against the backdrop of Covid 19. Guests: clinical psychologist Dr. Kim Lian Rolles-Abraham, a health support volunteer based in Manila Tesa Celdran, AIDS activist and Executive Director of Asia Catalyst, Karyn Kaplan. TJ Taylor from Sing Theatre offers a song of hope for a healthier future.

TRANSCRIPT

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:05] This was the day on April 26 when Singaporeans came together to tribute health care workers and migrant workers who were working on the front line. And you can hear this chorus of singers from this video that was published by Mediacorp. Similar tributes have been happening around the world. You may have seen them. Sometimes these tributes to healthcare workers happening on a daily basis. And I think what this illustrates is how the pandemic has really illuminated the sacrifice that so many individuals are making in order to save lives. Now, Petrina, I want to hear from you. What was the significance of the song being sung in that video?

Petrina Kow: [00:00:45] Hi Laurindo. Yeah, it was interesting. And I remember that day because we knew it was happening and we also knew that where we lived. I mean, I face the opening up of a house of of a highway. So I knew that we won't be able to get that feeling of community singing because there was nobody around us was going to. We're going to hear. So we all got in a car and drove around trying to catch the singing. And it was it was kind of finally we we managed to hear, like in our neighborhood, some people like popping their heads out and, you know, clapping and singing. And it was it was really interesting because while we were trying to bask in that moment. You know, after that online, I think there was a lot of discussion about who that was for and if it was even meaningful. Right. And then and then now I'm reading all these rather distressing reports about how we are paying these volunteer swappers and people who are trying to do testing so much more than our actual healthcare workers. Right. And that's really a big the part that makes me want to go. Hang on a minute. There's something wrong here. Right. And I think we need to take this opportunity, hopefully, to really look at what's, um, what's his idea of, you know, what we've decided to sort of term essential workers and and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's sort of a kind of a weird, bittersweet feeling that when I when I see that happening. Yeah. It it it pinches a little. I have to be honest.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:02:20] We're back with another episode of Inclusively in the series. We're talking about how the pandemic has changed people's lives and what lessons that we have learned that could make a post pandemic world more inclusive. I'm your host, Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:33] And I'm Petrina Kow. Gret glad to be back to be back.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:02:36] So happy to be back.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:37] Well, today's theme, as we've heard, is about health. And, you know, I think all of us have had our whole lives that are thrown into a new sort of well, I wouldn't say disarray, but just just having to adjust to new normals. Right. We've been calling it. And I think whether you know and people like somebody said the other day, which I thought was a wonderful sort of analogy, was like, we're all in the same storm, but we're in different boats. So, you know, everyone has their own style, I suppose, or own situations that they have to kind of overcome. Or, you know, some people are thriving. Some people are not doing so well. But I think definitely because this is a pandemic, I think health is one of the biggest sectors, I would say, that has really come into the forefront. Right. So for me, it's just been really basic. It's just been trying to keep healthy and fit and keep my family healthy and fit. So just trying to provide good meals for them and making sure they wake up. And, you know, I have teenagers. This is a problem. And so it's like, eat. Can y'all just eat like regular meals, you know, stuff like that. And just like don't stare the gaming thing for all day that. That's my struggle. That's it. It's nothing big.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:54] It's been so interesting. We have I mean, usually in a situation like this, myself and my husband, Alan, would be the first people to go out there and volunteer or do stuff, get around, make sure people have what they need, trying to fill gaps where possible. But we find ourselves in a situation where we are sharing a home with Alan's 90 year old mother while she'll be 90 on Monday. She's got advance dementia and we would then be brought upon us. Conversation were like, well, if we go out, it may be great, but we also then increased the risk of bringing something home to her. So given that we've all been so sensitized to what goes in and out of the house and who's there, and you really got to, you know, honor the sanctity that you have set up in your home quarantine for us who have just been keeping a very small daily lives, just the five of us keeping her well and trying to keep her as as engaged as possible. And and that's been a struggle kind of to deal with that, because then you're having to quote I've been. Quiet down the other side of myself that would usually be going out and doing things and really just being learning how to appreciate every day that we've got. With Alan's mum and do all we can remotely. So it's we've really learned a lot from this. But given that the this episode is all about health, I think some some context is really critical here. So as we've seen, you know, frontline workers, health care workers and the fight against covered 19 are really working in response that is severely under-resourced across the region. I think one good way for us to understand the resource situation is that is to look at where investments are. And so, Petrina, have to think about this one end of the scale. We have countries like Japan, Australia and New Zealand who roughly spend about 10 percent of their GDP on public health. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have countries like Bangladesh, Indonesia and Pakistan who roughly spend about three percent on public health. And this is all according to statistics on Statista from 2017. So my question to you, Petrina, is where do you think Singapore sits on that spectrum?

Petrina Kow: [00:06:17] If 10 being the highest and three, 10 percent and 10 percent is around three.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:22] Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:06:23] Oooh I don't know, like five maybe.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:26] Okay. So to Singapore is actually sits in the middle around. So it's spinning around four percent of GDP on public health. Right. Sitting right next door to the Philippines and Mongolia.

Petrina Kow: [00:06:39] It feels it feels like it's very little like 4 percent.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:43] That's right. That's right. And I'm sure some of our guests will have an opinion on that as well as we as we go to speak to them. But let me give you another dimension here. So what this means with this, you know, the resources and investment is that the number of people who are able to work in the sector is also then there are certain challenges and headwinds there. So, for example, in Australia, based on statistics from W.H show, there are 35 doctors per 10000 people we're in. On the other end of the scale in places like Indonesia, for every 10000 people, they have three.

Petrina Kow: [00:07:17] Oh, my gosh.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:07:18] And again, Singapore kind of sits in the middle to a higher than middle, but the middle range there. And it's not just doctors that we're talking about. We're also looking at nurses, too. Nurses are definitely carrying more responsibilities as as you know, more people are living longer lives and needing more services. The WHO said last month that the region, Asia-Pacific region needs roughly one point nine million nurses by 2030 in order to fill the gap and make sure that nobody gets left behind. So that kind of gives you the extent of the situation. Now, it's not that we don't have healthcare workers, actually places like the Philippines and Indonesia to have a lot of training, a lot of people. But these people are often attracted by, you know, much higher salaries in the Middle East, in the United States, in the UK. And that often creates a brain drain for for the healthcare systems that they're leaving. And with all of these things kind of put together, if we connect the dots. Limited resources mean that there are health care professionals are forced to be more creative in order to meet the man, the increasing the needs of their patients. And there are many more of them and also in limited resource settings. We have people like migrant workers, people who are low income, who are poor or other traditionally marginalized groups whose health is often just left behind. So this kind of paints a picture of what our conversation today. That we're stepping into.

Petrina Kow: [00:08:46] You know, I think that's some really confronting statistics. Right. And I think for us here in Singapore, we we've always prided ourselves right on a great sort of health care in everything. But I think this whole situation where our migrant worker communities were so severely and disproportionately affected has really, I think, sent all of us really thinking very hard. So today we're really excited because we've got so many wonderful guests joining us from all over the world. We have one of them, one of my mother's students. Actually, I'm so excited to reconnect with her. And she is a psychologist here in Singapore. And we also have and a good friend of mine. And he's also a fellow performer and singer. And he is from Sing Theatre. And one. One of the reasons I thought of T.J. is because they do this wonderful thing every year where they take music and the gift of music into hospitals. And I thought he would have a special and unique perspective about this episode as well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:09:54] We'll also be hearing from a health care volunteer has been delivering PPEs and shuttling healthcare workers in Manila while the Philippine capital is under lockdown. And also speaking to a health care advocate, a veteran AIDS activist and a good friend of mine who has keen insights on who traditionally who gets left behind in health crises and what we can do.

Petrina Kow: [00:10:16] But for now, very happy to say hello to Dr. Kim Lian Rolles-Abraham, clinical psychologist here in Singapore. Welcome to the show, Kim.

Dr. Kim Rolles-Abraham: [00:10:26] Thank you for having me.

Petrina Kow: [00:10:28] So one of the reasons I thought of chatting with you, course, I remember. First of all, I'm just in awe of the fact that you have three gorgeous little girls under the age of. Managing motherhood and you're like a fresh mom to you just delivered your baby six weeks ago and you put two other little toddlers. And you also have a thriving practice as a clinical psychologist. And what caught my eye was when when this whole lockdown happened, you had written a really impassioned note on Facebook about the importance of mental health here in Singapore and that, you know, that you guys have had to sort of be sort of lumped under the non essentials category. And you were lobbying and sort of at least bringing awareness to the fact that I think more than ever this period of time has been really challenging for people. So perhaps you could give us a little. And of course, I think because of the fact that so many of your colleagues and yourself as well spoke out, that the Ministry of Health actually revoke that and allowed for the, you know, the mental health of Singaporeans to be looked after a little better. So perhaps you could tell us what's been that like for you?

Dr. Kim Rolles-Abraham: [00:11:38] Well, I I'm I guess it's been a bit of a bumpy journey with the different rulings about, you know, what is essential, what's not essential. I do think that the main focus. I mean, what was at the forefront initially, obviously, was the coronavirus and how it affects people on a physical level, because I think, you know, that was the most the way it manifested. Right. And I and I think that obviously at that point in time, all the resources went to the medical aspect of things, which is just well and good. And I think it was only a little bit later on that perhaps people started to realize that, you know, this thing was evolving and it wasn't going to go away. And so with that in mind, you know, there will be a lot of other challenges along the way which would really impact one psyche. So I guess I mean, I don't know what the process was like in terms of them deciding to reclassify, psychological services as essential. But that has been great for for myself and for my colleagues. We're still doing it in a little bit of a limited fashion, though, because we we we are only allowed to go in to the office for Face-To-Face consults for about for about four hours or so, five days a week. So that means no more than four clients because one session takes about an hour. And so the rest of it then we we work from home remotely. We do either Skype or Zoom or whatever platform that is the most comfortable for for us and our clients. So I think what we've had to do really is also come up with a bit of a triage system, you know, to look at where where the greatest needs. And it's it's it sounds really horrible to say that to kind of say, OK, so you're worse off than the other, and therefore you get face to face and you know it. It's not something that we we enjoy, but it's necessary. And so with that, we've started seeing only the new cases face to face, because obviously, you know, when you meet a person for the first time, you don't want to do it over the online platform because there are there are things that you would need to assess risks and all of that. And then the other category that we see face to face would be those that pose risks either to themselves or to others. Typically, those that present quite a high suicidal risk really face to face.

Petrina Kow: [00:14:23] And I mean, in this in this last month or so, I mean, what have you noticed with your patients new and existing that that sort of really presenting for them, you know, in their ability, ability to kind of cope with this whole pandemic situation?

Dr. Kim Rolles-Abraham: [00:14:38] Well, I think. This is commonly talked about in all of our sessions. It comes it comes a little bit wants to the forefront instead of maybe some of the other issues that we were working on therapeutically before, you know, very often relate. When I document my my case notes, it often starts with patient shared that the circuit breaker brought up feelings of anger. So it's it's almost as if it's the you know, it's the one thing that everybody talks about immediately. And, you know, they have been also affected in various ways. I think that the common one is is being isolated because I think for a lot of a lot of my patients who already struggle with mental health issues, just that in itself is isolating. You know, the fact that perhaps other people don't understand what they're going through is isolating. And now we've put an extra layer to that isolation, which is that's a physical. You know, they don't get to connect on it on a physical level with other people. And so not everybody connects well to text or, you know, if you Zoom or whatnot. In fact, I'm not even great with it. I only use Zoom when people give me a link and then I click on it. If you ask me to host the meeting, I still don't know how to do that. So, you know, I can only imagine how difficult it is for for some of these people. And also the level of perhaps suffocation, you know, emotionally and being surrounded by family. Well, I think for some some people it's brought joy for others, especially especially the ones that I work with, because they already experience mental health issues. And then that rubs off on the family and vice versa. It's very stifling. And they they've found a real lack of privacy as well. And the routine has really shifted up for them and a lot of my patients as well. You know, they can be quite rigid or quite fixed in their ways. And what is previously kind of given them comfort or solace. This has been a routine, you know, doing something that that brings them comfort each day and some of them their coping mechanisms. Let's go out to meet with people, to sit at a coffee shop and just people watch just to do some window shopping. And that has been their reprieve. But now they're stuck at home. And I think for a lot of mothers as well, being stuck at home also then comes with the obligation that you're at home. Then you've got to manage the kids, whereas previously they would take a break by going out. And then if they're physically out, then the responsibility, the obligation is not is not there.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:34] That's so that's so heartbreaking to hear. And I just feel like, you know, I think when you're more than anything, like we just recorded an episode before about food. Right. I don't think food and health is at the most fundamental and essentials that come really much to the forefront when we were dealing with, you know, a worldwide pandemic that, you know, oftentimes it's so easy to get lost in things. But when you you look at what is the daily reality for so many people, then you you really sort of. Yeah. You just sort of jolted into this sort of existential crisis almost. Right. Everyone like we were just talking about this with friends. So. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. You know,

Dr. Kim Rolles-Abraham: [00:18:15] No worries. I think just the greatest thing at this point in time that people struggle with this uncertainty. Yeah, absolutely. Just, you know, when when will things lift? When when will things get back to normal? Will things get back to normal? What is the new normal?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:30] So thank you Kim. I think that question we're all hanging on to right now. And and so I want to just ask you to stay on the line at this stage. I want to open the line to Manila and invite Tesa Celdran to the conversation. How are you Tesa?

Tesa Celdran: [00:18:52] It's really it's stormy day in Manila today, sir.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:56] Sitting in her car,

Tesa Celdran: [00:18:59] You know, I was like I was dropping off somebody at the hospital, so I had find somewhere to park in order to do this. Right.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:19:05] Okay. So. So just to help our audience understand, what was life like for you before the pandemic? Before the lockdown measures in Manila. There's also Manila, Philippines. It has has had one of the longest lockdown situations in the region. So I'm just curious what was happening for you prior to all of this?

Tesa Celdran: [00:19:26] Well, prior to that, personally, I was moving apartments to I do, you know, I go and get things started moving. I was I was really moved by March. So I was it was a big thing for me. Well, also trying to get together, to go to a run the Living Room, which is like a creative space. So that, again, I was trying to get plans for the last quarter of last year, for the first quarter of this year going. And then here we are.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:19:55] The Living Room is is a place where artists visiting the Philippines can can stay and have a bit of a short term residents before moving to other parts of the country. Is that right?

Tesa Celdran: [00:20:05] Yeah. We were trying to figure out the next steps. So that what I. How it's changed, is that the next question?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:20:12] Yes, that's right. And so. So what are you doing now? Because most of the countries lock down and stay at home, but you're in a car and a car park.

Tesa Celdran: [00:20:18] because I. Personally I've always been a volunteer for something. You know, I started 20 years ago. I was working for Heritage Conservation Society. So it's something if I just do the advent of social media, it just became a big thing. Everybody was doing something for typhoon's. Something was they were doing something for people needed help. So the service for that has been really good. So networks were in place. So I did it less. And that's it. Yes. Yes. And then when lockdown happened, suddenly nobody knew what to do because there's no transportation. There's no. How do you get from point A to point B? And lucky for me, I'm sort of a volunteer network, and this is just need volunteers, what can you do? Well, I have a car. We need to bring things to people. So they said OK. So we started getting together. We were first transporting healthcare workers from hospitals to where they were staying and then medical equipment, from food to healthcare workers. Personal protective equipment face shields. So that's what I'm doing on really active because not a lot of us have cars, right.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:27] So you're delivering PPEs to hospitals, is that right? And having to pick it up from where? So, like, are these private donations? I mean, I've been seeing pictures about deliveries and things like that coming to the Philippines. But I mean, how why why are you why is there the need for people like yourself to do these deliveries when there should be government services actually taking care of business?

Tesa Celdran: [00:21:51] I don't think there needs to be a place of what to do, because to be able to go on the roads, you'll need permits to do this, permits to do that. And since I'm the volunteer group that already is connected, they were able to secure permits and said we just need to be able to transport people. And so that that was done quite easily. All I did was that signing up, I'm doing this. And they gave me an I.D. I have like three I.Ds To be able to pass them because you have checkpoints. So it's not easy.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:16] Still, those are police checkpoint.

Tesa Celdran: [00:22:18] Police checkpoints. And also when you when you. Borders. From from one city to another, you know, so it's the Barangay system and at police checkpoints. So it's about three layers of security, really. And just to be able to do that. So I think these are we have people who gather the equipment we need. The equipment face shields, a face mask. I pick them up from wherever they are, wherever they are in the city. It could an appartment. I could be a home. It could be a church. That's the main thing. They're all sent to hospitals. So I connected to about 60 hospitals.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:59] And you also mentioned what was news to me was that you're also shuttling people to to and from work.

Tesa Celdran: [00:23:04] I'm here today because somebody needs a checkup because she's a. She's a cancer patient checkup scheduled here in the hospital near here.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:23:12] So I think also its patients and also workers.

Tesa Celdran: [00:23:15] Yes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:23:15] So what have been some of the stories that you've heard? I mean, without giving any identifiable information or names or anything like that by water, I imagine your your as a drive your now you're also turning into a bit of a listening ear and a counselor for people as you're as you're ferrying people across the city water. What are some of the things that you're hearing?

Tesa Celdran: [00:23:34] One of the most touching stories I remember was this is a hospital called Fedele, which far off in Quezon City it's a bit far. And I was just delivering just the face shields, about 300 face shields for them. And this this doctor comes out. And then I just asked her how I usually say, how are you? How's your family? First thing I ask you. And then she looked at me and said, I'm fine. When I mentioned family, she started to tear up and cry and I thought, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, and I don't suppose touch each other, but actually we're both wearing gloves and I just held her hands. And she said, I have an 11 year old daughter. And she said, well, we haven't seen for months. And although she's with her mother, she knows she's safe. But things like this, video conferencing is just not enough for her. And she was really in tears. So I just tell you know, we're here. Even if you don't know each other. You understand what I'm trying to. I understand what you're going through, what what we're going through as well. But we're here. So I just I just held her. I say anything for a couple of minutes and then she said. I'm alright right now. So. Just things like that, because, you know, it's. They have to be, what I realised, they have to be like that for their patients. You have to be brave. You have to be strong. And you have to show that they're not feeling anything of these things. Moments like that when you're giving something to them, you just ask them how they are. Makes a big difference.

Tesa Celdran: [00:24:58] And how are you holding up? I mean, you're seeing so many different things. I'm sure that also dealing with checkpoints and police can also be kind of tense in the current situation in Manila. How are you holding up yourself?

Tesa Celdran: [00:25:10] I go home and I eat some ice cream. But it's not. The support I also get because of what I'm doing is purely voluntary. I get nothing. So I've had my friends calling me up. I go home. And they say we're sending you food so you don't have to cook your dinner. You know, we're sending you a bunch of PPEs. We're sending you. One time I received a cake. I said, whoa, I live by myself, it's a cake. I'm going to get fat. It's just things like that. The people are calling me. How are you? Are you. What's funny is that people are so scared for you. But when you're out there, it's not so scary. They say always to be safe. Yeah, I know. I'm good. I could get sick. So far I've been OK since I got the care and the love and support you get. I'm just saying, if you're volunteering, this is wonderful. So you need the support for those who also get the support. We all need that.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:26:07] Thank you for your inspiring story. Is really just heartening. So heartening to, number one, reconnect with you, but also just to hear the work that you're doing there. So please stay on the line. It's a pleasure for me to bring Karen Kaplan on the line from New York to join us. How are you? Karen, welcome.

Karyn Kaplan: [00:26:25] I Laurindo and everyone. It's wonderful to be here, even though it's midnight here and in the afternoon there. I'm used to it because all of Asia Catalyst's work is in Asia and I'm regularly on calls like this. It's a pleasure. Thanks.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:26:42] Thank you so much. So can you give our listeners a bit of an insight into what Asia Catalyst does. You're the executive director. Am I right?

Karyn Kaplan: [00:26:50] Absolutely, yes. I've been with the organization for four years. I lived in Asia for about 25 years in Thailand. Always working in the HIV context. Asia Catalyst really was born out of the HIV epidemic in China specifically. About 15 years ago. And there was a lot of discrimination happening like everywhere people were being. People living with HIV were being denied care at hospitals. They were being shunned from their families. And so there was a need for people to come together and figure out how to respond. And I think, you know, what's been so extraordinary about the response from directly affected people by HIV has been this kind of resilience that's been built up over the years, the communities, the strategies to, you know, build political will, to respond effectively and humanely and using a human rights based approach to the HIV epidemic. I feel like it's been very relevant as we're all confronting Covid 19, for example. Right now, we support mainly what my organization does is training on human rights, documentation and advocacy so communities can respond to their own issues that are priorities for them, mainly barriers to accessing healthcare. You know, using the tools of human rights and at the local level or national level or international level. And so, you know, it's largely already very marginalized and disproportionately affected people like transgender people or LGBTQI people, people who use drugs, transgender sex workers, you know, undocumented migrants and all of those communities. Over the years, we have worked together to build very strong networks that are able to quickly respond to urgent needs. So, for example, some of what we do apart from training is sub granting. So very small grassroots, unregistered groups have access to resources, which is really crucial. And, you know, it's very hard to get a grant for food. You know, people are like, what does that have to do with access to health care? But, you know, right now, for example, sex workers, especially transgender sex workers in Thailand who we work with have, you know, no income because sex work is radically affected by the lockdown and restrictions on movement or undocumented Myanmar workers in Thailand who could not get back into their country. So we're supporting a group that works with those largely women. But women and men who are stuck in Thailand. So, yeah, the HIV epidemic has a lot of lessons around, you know, building political well. A community led response is overcoming, you know, stigma and discrimination, because a lot of what we're seeing, whether it's New York or, you know, Cambodia, is a lot of ignorance and fear driving policies, lack of information, a lack of strong political leadership to do the right thing and not overreach in terms of rights violations. So I feel like it's been amazing to see how innovative a lot of these grassroots groups are because they have so much experience working with very few resources. But, you know, a lot of ideas and a lot of connections and allies which are essential. And so that's been the heartening side of all of this.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:30:38] I remember meeting you many years ago when I was a newbie in AIDS activism and while Covid 19 is a different virus. You must have a sense of deja vu coming from the AIDS movement. And then you see reports about who is most vulnerable in 2020 to a virus that has no cure. I mean, you hear those statistics from the States about how African-Americans and migrant recent migrants, people working in the informal sector are most vulnerable. In Singapore, you hear stories of how, you know, the population of migrant workers here, very little information about transgender communities. Other communities are generally left under the radar. These are the same groups that you. I'm sure what we're talking about. And when we're trying to get more access to treatment and prevention for HIV sex workers, people who use drugs. People who are in the prison system as well. I mean. I mean what? Surely there must be some frustration going, well, this is happening again. And we didn't get it fixed last time. And here we are. Look, look. Did you see? I told you so. I mean, what must be going through your mind?

Karyn Kaplan: [00:31:50] Yes, there's social justice movements are definitely it. We're in for the long haul. Right. We're trying to address the kind of underlying drivers of these epidemics. And of course, we're only as strong as our most vulnerable as as a global community. And right now, there feels like there's a lot of disunity. But at the same time, I think that's where we're seeing also some really bright spots in terms of responding to the challenge of this epidemic that can have potentially positive impact on the communities that we're talking about, whether they're transgender people, people in prison, people in close settings, sex workers. Because what you're seeing, for example, I don't know if you guys have seen in the past couple of days some very exciting things have been coming out of statements by U.N. agencies about the need to, for example, decriminalize sex work, decriminalize homosexuality, release people from prisons, you know, who are because they're seeing all of these criminalization and over criminalization, overtly restricting and cracking down on people for who they are is actually undermining the response. And it's also just antithetical to to respecting human rights. And so if we can use Covid 19 as an opportunity, in spite of all the sickness and all of the death and all of the horror, but it's still pointing to our vulnerabilities as a society and we can hone in on those and say, OK, what haven't we gotten right so far? You know, whether you're talking about Rohingya refugees in Cox's Bazaar in Bangladesh or you're talking about elderly people in a nursing home in New York, you know, who are we not? You know how well what happened there? What can we prevent? Can we take care of? And so the next epidemic won't be so horrible. But we're definitely in this for the long haul. And if it's going to expose some of these opportunities to correct, you know, racism, poverty, social exclusion and criminalization of certain populations, and we can figure out the answers to those by finding more and more allies, then I think that will be a silver lining and that I know a lot of us are are prepared to work on.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:34:21] Yeah. I mean, have there been any have you seen any instances in the region? And we're dealing with a very big region in the Asia-Pacific area who have heeded that call from the U.N. agencies to, you know, invest more, take care of the health of vulnerable communities. You got any reason for us to be hopeful and to see there to be a movement and then what had previously been done?

Karyn Kaplan: [00:34:45] Absolutely. When I think back to the HIV epidemic in Asia, of course, in Thailand, they issued compulsory licenses to make sure that they could get access to affordable generic drugs. And a lot of countries in Asia and elsewhere did that. Right now, we're think we're all thinking about the Covid 19 vaccine. How are, you know, poor countries, low and middle income countries are going to get access no matter where in the world we're talking about. And so a lot of countries have come out under the World Health Organization, about 150 world leaders from Pakistan to New Zealand, you know, talking about how the any drugs and diagnostics must be free to all who need it. We can't leave anyone behind. And it's the same idea that within the UN human rights mechanisms, there are things that allow us to prioritize life over profit. At some point, the market response is not going to work and we have to take a rights based response. And again, that was a lesson from the HIV epidemic. And I think countries like Thailand, Malaysia, you know, Brazil, we're all having the political will because of activism to respond to their epidemics. But they needed additional tools to be able to do that because they weren't producing their own drugs and relied on international pharmaceutical companies. But it did indeed have the laws in place or put them in place where they needed to. And the same thing could happen with Covid. You know, we could decriminalize sex work. We could decriminalize homosexuality. We could ensure more people have access to healthcare equitably, and we could rely on communities to solve the problems of their own communities and be seen as part of, you know, health systems strengthening, you know, commute. But we have to strengthen those communities to be able to part be part of the health systems. And I think we see some of the most exciting advances in Asia where we have a lot of organize, you know, Asia-Pacific network of people living with HIV. You know, lots of networks of of the groups separate, disproportionately affected. And so that's what gives me hope.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:37:08] It will be interesting to see how we're dealing with covered related stigma. Moving forward. All of these conversations about who's positive, who's negative, who is immune, who's not immune, when when there's further data available. I think we've got a lot of lessons learned from the AIDS movement there. Karen, I just have one more question. And every show we invite our experts to imagine that they've been magically granted the power to change and reshape the way that things are done. And so, Karen, if you were given the power to make changes to Asia's health system, to make it more inclusive in the wake of covered 19, what would be the top three things that you would do?

Karyn Kaplan: [00:37:50] You know, as an American where we have one of the worst health care systems, you know what, for so many years living in Thailand under universal healthcare, which people living with HIV had a very large part in promoting in the early years. So I would say, you know, that the things that we all need. No matter where we're from, you know, universal health care, affordable healthcare, equitable health care, universal basic income, you know, removing any barrier to health care for whom ever whether you're you know, I work a lot also on TB. You know, elderly women are, you know, get diagnosed less than many other people for all the different reasons they're in the home. Cultural reasons, they do prioritize their health care compared to other people in the family. You know, looking at gender equality, things like that, I'm just the basic stuff. Poverty, gender inequality and are making all of those disappear with the snap of a finger.

Petrina Kow: [00:38:55] Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Karen. It was so insightful listening to you and hearing your contributions and all that. Amazing where you've been doing. Next, I'd like to introduce to the conversations to T.J. Taylor. He's the low musical director at Sing Theatre here in Singapore, which is the local theatre company. And they do wonderful musical reviews and shows and me. And of course, being in a theatre company, we've had to take a bit of a break.

TJ Taylor: [00:39:25] A little bit of a break. Bit of a break.

Petrina Kow: [00:39:28] But I think you've also been apart from showing some of the shows that you guys have done online. You're also offering your classes, continuing on with your musical theatre class. Online. Right. But tell us maybe just in terms of your initial response to everything you've heard at the moment and also maybe thinking Sing Theatre's usual sort of yearly outreach in your work in the hospitals? Like what? How how are you feeling about all of this?

TJ Taylor: [00:39:58] Well, first of all, obviously, I think this situation is so unprecedented. And I think for especially those of us in the arts, it is it is something that for us, it is a necessary thing for us to step back, because all most of our work, most of our work involves bringing people together. And at this time, at this time, that just simply can't happen in person. But what's been most inspiring for me is how, as an artist community, people have innovated their work and a lot of theatre, for example, that I spend most of my time in is life. And it involves connecting with people and working directly with people. But what's been fantastic to see and myself as a practitioner as well, we've had to think outside the box. We've had to think, how can how can we still bring these events and these these moments and still bring people together through music, through theatre, through dance in innovative ways that as practitioners we never thought we would ever have to do. Like, we don't train, we don't train as performers to perform through Zoom or to, to, to, to an online play. That's not what we do. But in this time, when people simply can't get together, we still do need to come together. And I think it's been wonderful that platforms like Zoom and Skype and those sort of things are able we're at that point now in society where when technology that we're able to actually do these things and bring things together and put things online so that the arts is still the arts is still alive. It's just in a very different way, but also a very challenging way for artists, because for artists to survive, that is very hard to kind of sustain an income and things like that. But it is a necessary moment in time where it's a hit that we have to take because the health, the health is so important right now. But the artist community overall is always resilient and will always try and give back. And I think that's the main thing that's sharing, like whether people are getting paid or whether it's just majority of people are just giving giving their time and volunteering in that way is just absolutely fantastic to see. So that's that's been truly inspiring. And that's from around the world, like Singapore Singaporean artists. I've seen that in the UK, actually, all the all the artists communities around the world, the things that people have been sharing has really been amazing to to bring people together online. And I think people are people, people who can access that are really taking it as a source of comfort in very uncertain times in terms of seeing theatre. So I worked for a theatre company here called Sing Theatre, which was set up by a fabulous lady called Natalie Rabat about 15 years ago. And Natalie initially started the company to bring French culture to Singapore and promote French culture through that. But over time, she kind of found a need to kind of give back to the community in some other way. And she found that need in hospitals because hospitals can be a very, very obviously clinical environment and for good reasons. But by bringing music to hospitals, Natalie found it an area where we can kind of give back as artists, we can give back to the community, because when you're when you're in the hospital and when you're when you're going through some of the toughest times of your life dependent, you know, everyone is there for different reasons. Music can be such a reprieve and an uplifting and uplifting moment in somebody's day. So for that, since 2013, as an organisation, we've been going into different hospitals around Singapore, specifically seeing health hospitals at the moment and organising different music projects to like some performances in the lobbies, also taking performances to the bedsides, bringing some of the top artists in Singapore, like host Natalie Owens, perform there. We even had Kumar at one of our performances a few few, I think, last year. So we've had lots of different. We've had lots of different performers come to the hospital just to kind of have that escapism from from the from the situation. And I think, you know, we're talking about mental health earlier. And I think music is one of those things that can really kind of help with people's mental health. And I think that's that's the same for us, whether we're in hospital or not right now to kind of take us away from the situation. So we've been spending quite a lot of time on that, creating lots of different projects over the last few years. But obviously with the situation, we've not been able to take artists to the hospitals for obvious reasons. With transmission and things like that. So for us as an organisation, it's been the last few weeks of spending. How do we. They'll provide the service. How do we still how do we still bring music to hospitals in a meaningful way? And it's obviously not been the priority for hospitals, right. You know, they've been dealing with the crisis by actually as the crisis is kind of evolving, actually, we're finding we're having more conversations with the hospitals, that they're seeking some respite specifically for the nurses and the doctors, actually, because that's the other side to what we do, because, of course, we do the patients. But I know we do a program called Singing A Atory where we dress as super heroes and villains and go and go and sing a song to the children's wards. And I used to dress in my underpants as a captain. Captain Singapore, I go. And go. I had other clothes that I promised. I was used to go around the children's wards and sing sing songs and actually the beautiful thing. Obviously the kids engaged and it was all for the kids, but the smiles on the nurses and the doctors face when we used to come into the wards and kind of just take the nurses and doctors who are very stressful jobs day to day, they would have a little smile and a little a little laugh and a joke because we came through and you could tell that it impacted their day in a very meaningful way. So our focus right now is how do we bring those programs online? Certainly for that, you know, for the seeable future and to still give those doctors and nurses especially kind of escapers in their lunch time. So that's our big focus at the moment.

Petrina Kow: [00:46:02] Oh, that's wonderful to hear, T.J.. I hope you I hope you manage to get that going. Yeah. And I guess before you sing us your special song, maybe we'll go round to allow guests to just sort of give us all that, your little sort of wrap up. And maybe we'll start with you, Karen. What what would you like our listeners to know?

Karyn Kaplan: [00:46:25] I guess just back to your point earlier about the boats were all in this together, maybe in different boats. But if we can keep finding the connections that bring us together more than the disunity that a lot of the political leaders seem to be sowing, I think that's the message because I really, truly have seen the most marginalized communities transcend their situations, helped keep each other alive simply through forming community. And I think that with Covid as a global community, we can do the same. Thank you.

Petrina Kow: [00:47:03] Thank you. Karen, how about you, Tesa?

Tesa Celdran: [00:47:06] You know, I always say this volunteering, always giving in a big way. But now I'm you know, we need to be distanced. I do things in a very small way is just me picking up stuff. So I guess what I'm saying is every small bit helps. No matter how small it is, it matters. Now, does it have to be giving in a big way or getting big donations, but just saying, how are you and how's your family? It's also a way of giving. So we need all of them. Right now, it's more it's very important.

Petrina Kow: [00:47:37] Yeah. Thanks for that. And how about you, Kim?

Dr. Kim Rolles-Abraham: [00:47:40] Just three small points. First one. Stay connected, as connected as you can. It's really the most important thing. No. Second, the look out for those that may not have the resources, whether it is food during this time, whether it is a company doing this time in terms of texting. Online platforms. And and also to help some of those people set some of these things up, like some of the elderly may not know how to use certain things to get connected. Look out for them. And lastly, stop holding the news. No, seriously. Pick a couple of accurate sources. Look at those and be done, because at the end of the day, the more we read and some articles can get quite depressing. OK, coronavirus never going to go away. This is never going to happen. So, you know, let's just keep to the basics, things that will help you to understand what you need to do for yourself and those around you.

Petrina Kow: [00:48:43] Wonderful. I love that. Thank you all so much for your advice and your offerings and your sharing, I guess. I mean, I've learned also I don't know what you Laurindo. But, you know, it's it's almost like you're you're the editor of your life and you're curating your your your content. Right. And you want to be drawing some boundaries. It's like, what's your magazine about? So what's what are you about? Right. That does not fit in this magazine. This does not exist. So just does X that unfriend or undo and unfollow. And just just I know it kind of. I was like, OK, it is my own little echo chamber, but I think I'm OK for now. For here.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:49:21] It's about choosing your battles. Exactly.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:24] Drawing those boundaries. But also, I think that's why I love these conversations. And that week we get to dip in and to hear, you know, perspectives from different people, from all from all over, in all sectors. Right. So anything you want to. Anything that you want to add Laurindo?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:49:39] I just want to thank all of our guests again to came to test to Karen, to T.J.. Thank you so much for your time. I want to let our listeners know that if you'd like more information about the people who've joined us today and their work. Be sure to check out the inclusively website for details will be providing links to everyone. Please also remember to like this podcast and submit a review. Your feedback will help us improve. And it's certainly most welcome. And don't forget to sign up on our podcast, Spotify and also YouTube. So then you're notified when a new episode is out.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:13] Wonderful. So before we go, we just see say thank you for listening. And T.J., what special song have you got for us today?

TJ Taylor: [00:50:20] Well, I chose this song, actually, because we focus on musical theatre over at Sing theatre. And this is one of the most classic musical theatre songs of all time. But it also has another meaning, especially over in the UK. A symbol of kind of support for this crisis has become the rainbow. And many people are putting rainbows up in the windows and things like that. So I thought it was very fitting for this time. It is a song about hope. So I'm going to sing You Somewhere Over the Rainbow from Wizard of Oz.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:47] All right, ladies and gentlemen, let's please enjoy it with the T.J. Taylor with Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

A heartbreaking tale of pending closure of a fabulous bakery, hawker stalls who cook for social good and a vision of a future where you can pick fresh durians on every street for free.

All this and more as hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia examine how lessons learned from the coronavirus could ensure no one goes hungry in a post-pandemic world. Guests: Juwanda Hassim -Fabulous Baker Boys, Jason Chua - Beng Who Cooks, Siew Yen Chong - food poverty volunteer, Bjorn Low - Edible Garden City and musician, Joshua Simon.

TRANSCRIPT

*SOUND EFFECTS: MOTORCYCLE*

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:05] In the time of Covid 19 delivery bikes are now the king of the road. Home delivery was previously viewed as a luxury. But now delivery bikes from Foodpanda delivery to Grab Food are all essential services, and millions of people rely on them to get the food that they need to bring to the table. So, Petrina, I want to ask you, has how is food delivery usage changed for you during the and then haha.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:31] Interestingly, I think I found that we, we try and deliver less now because we, we also are very cognizant of the wastage with all the packaging material. So in fact so, so my cooking, as you know, if you're following on social media, has been up several levels. No, I mean I just have to provide for a family. So I cook a lot more now. And so if we do buy takeout, we we we kind of use that as an opportunity to go and pick up the food so that we can kind of like work in a trip out of the house, you know, legitimately. Right. As we're kind of being locked down. So, yeah, I, I we try and deliver as little as possible if we can. And if we can't, we just get stuff delivered anyways. Yeah. So yeah,

Laurindo Garcia: [00:01:18] On our end it's been more of a special treat. We are eating at home more and cooking for ourselves, which has been really good. But for me I one of the people who's had to celebrate their birthday in isolation. And so I took that as an opportunity to look for a special meal that usually I wouldn't have had a home delivery. But I was really quite surprised at what was available. It was a 12 course vegan Korean meal that was delivered to the door, you know, piping hot. And it was really quite amazing. So I was really quite awed by what was what was available. So, yeah, there's some of the things that you do during during the pandemic. But I also want to welcome everyone to another episode of inclusively in this series. First of all, my name is Laurindo Garcia. And this series, we are asking the question how people are changing the way that they work or do business during the pandemic and what lessons that you've had you have learned that have the potential to make the post pandemic worldwide.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:23] Yeah. And hello, everyone. My name is Petrina and this topic is very close to my heart. As a big food lover and food eater myself, so I'm very excited about today's episode because we have guests from all over the world joining us and we have some really wonderful local heroes that are going to chat with as well.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:02:45] So before we kick off with the interviews, it's going to kind of set the tone here. So before the pandemic, you know, according to The Economist, you know, food was generally more affordable around the globe for four people more than ever before, and fewer people were hungry than previous generations. So it's according to the most recent edition of The Economist. But all that has changed because the pandemic, as you've heard there, have been empty supermarket shelves and wet markets due to the panic buying during the early days of the pandemic. And now several months after that, one trillion dollar global food supply chain has demonstrated its present resilience with some really fast adaptations to me by companies. But all that being said, there are still some risks that lie in food security and less so on the supply side, but definitely on the demand side. It's no surprise for people to hear that they've been massive job losses. Now people have lost their income and have less money to spend on food. And the United Nations just announced last month that they are worried that the number of people who were at risk of hunger has doubled as a result of the coronavirus. They're estimating that 265 million people are at risk of hunger. Hunger now as a result of changes have been happening in the world. And underlying thread in all of this is that there are hundreds there's a possibility of higher food prices if food exporting countries start imposing export restrictions. So that's really giving us a big picture of what what is the subtext of our conversation today?

Petrina Kow: [00:04:21] Yeah, and also in today's episode, we'll be speaking with two local food outlets on how they've adapted to the situation, whether or not they have to endure sort of closures or how they've kind of responded to the community around them. And we'll also be hearing from a Singaporean living in London, a dear, dear friend of mine who's also very involved with food and teaching low income families there how to cook healthy and delicious meals for under a pound a day.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:04:49] We'll also be speaking to a pioneer for urban farming who's also joining and a social entrepreneur who's joining us from Australia. And later on in the show, we'll be hearing from musician Joshua Simon. He'll be sharing his perspective on food during the time of Covid 19 and also offering us a song.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:04] Yeah. Can't wait. But first, my absolute pleasure to introduce the one and only Fabulous Baker Boy Juwanda Hassim. Hello, darling.

Juwanda Hassim: [00:05:04] Hello, Petrina. Hello, Laurindo.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:19] Yes. So for those of you who were from Singapore, you might have indulged in many of his cakes before. I think that's what he's known for. Its legendary row, shelves of deliciousness. And his lovely cafe sits at the bottom of Fort Canning Hill. And I think he's definitely experienced all kinds of things. Give given the last three or four weeks of mayhem. So perhaps, Juwanda, you could just tell us a little bit about, you know, you were able to keep going and then you couldn't. How have you pivoted? How have you made sort of adjustments and changes in how are you doing?

Juwanda Hassim: [00:06:00] So when when the virus first broke out, it was so clear in January and February mean somebody was coming. Oh. What the situation was going to be. Business was great because we're we're we're not as affected as the malls or an enclosed space because we're being we're to the park. So we're outside. So people were not included in the area. There wasn't any air conditioning outside. People come into my area. I saw a lot of people sort of come come with their families, family support simply in the park. The average started decreasing. And 10, 20 per cent, but we're still OK. Then social distancing started. And that really hit. The. Then so sorry. Then the MBS tower closed. You know, that day when the government just closed all buildings because, once one floor was affected. And then the next day, the repercussions was immediate because we have nobody lunch. Everybody was made to work from home, mostly because we were located near the business district. Not so much where people lived. So in that when that happened, this was dropped maybe 30, 40 percent. And then the weekend we saw a resurgence. Right. Because people still wanted to come out. People who were worried about people needed to get out a bit. So people still ordered their cakes. People still came out and that was a first week and then the second week they implemented the social distancing. And that was immediate for us because we had a shut. We were not allowed to open until everything was checked by National Parks. Thank god, we have an extended space area which included the gallery. So my cafe is a very tight 60, 60 seater and gallery space which is was empty. We cleared out the gallery space and we made the space even bigger, which could set about maybe 60 seats. That went very well at this point. I was just restructuring at this point, take aways was still not a thing. People were encourage deliveries were encouraged. But it was still not a thing. I was just restructuring my take away business, online business. It was steady, it was growing and then was social distancing the week after really hit. I majorly went online. I will push up 20 percent of cakes and five off delivery of islandwide. Because I couldn't depend on the delivery systems, which was like Deliveroo or Foodpanda because they're too expensive. And they do not service the areas I needed to service. And so my friend Rubina, who owned a wedding event company, said take my van and I got one of my managers to drive. And so that was our system. So we got the orders in and orders started coming in. It was a lot of ways. We were doing 21, 20, 30 orders a day. We had call in for another vehicle. And then suddenly the park was all shut immediately that night, when they park they shut the parks. The next morning I had to reimburse 10000. I had to return. We would refund customers ten thousand dollars just that morning. Everything overnight, everything was just shut. And then since yesterday, some places. Most places are allowed to open. But places in the parks are still closed. So I am just at home cooking for my neighbours, my, my friends and stuff. So how it has affected me is affected me really greatly. I mean, I mean, I spend three days of my non-carb days just eating carbs, not knowing what the hell I'm going to do. And just three days just filling myself with carbs. I really did like. You know, the first thing was to to how am I going to keep my guys? I've got I've got I'm really not using my fifteen part timers, they are so poor thing. And then I've got to two cooks, two bakers. Two. One manager and one barista one guy on the floor. Three of them were foreigners. How do we do this, right? So there was my it was it was kind of emotionally not great, but I worked through there, had to do what I had to do. Things are. Things are better. But not as great as I wish it could be. When come. When this. I basically I have one more month before my business shuts in July, July. Only because of the lease. We we're we're finishing up the lease with National Parks. And because of the situation, I haven't been able look for a new space. I haven't been able to do anything. I've been talking to agents. I mean, everything on my hands are tied. I can't even keep my guys on a retailer because I don't know when I'm going to start again. You know, so obviously, my first Zoom. This is only my second Zune meeting. So my first Zoom meeting, was telling all my staff we're shutting down in July. So the first week of July the Fabulous Baker Boy will shut down. And then we'll see what's going to happen and then we'll see how, because they can't do anything at this point.

Petrina Kow: [00:11:14] Yeah. Good Lord. I think that might be. Is that news for everybody? Because it feels like this is big news. This is the first time I'm hearing this that you're going to be shut in July.

Juwanda Hassim: [00:11:26] I think I told you I don't think I showed you just snippets, you know, and some because I was really depressed about just thinking about it because we were doing well. We were doing so well. I mean, just in and in just three, just I knew we were going to be badly hurt. But they didn't realize it was gonna be this bad.

Petrina Kow: [00:11:45] Yeah. Yeah. Like, pulled the rug from under you. And.

Juwanda Hassim: [00:11:50] Because I can't do any it. I can't do anything. I can't. I kind of go out. And even if I have the funds and you don't know what the situation is going to be, how long it's going to stretch. It might only clear next July, you know. Yeah so what you going to do?

Petrina Kow: [00:12:07] Well, thank you for sharing so honestly, Juwanda. I mean, I think about all the various different restaurants that, you know, are pushing their take away menus out and trying their best. We have. Thank you so much. I mean, we have another, you know, two guys who've come from a space that have managed to carry on because they're located. They happen to be located in an area that was not shut down. These are Jason and Chen Long from Beng Who Cooks. Hello, Jason. I'm talking to Jason right?

Jason Chua: [00:12:40] Yeah, there isn't. Hi, guys. I'm Jason from Beng Who Cooks.

Petrina Kow: [00:12:45] So, I mean, you guys are in a food centre. So if you guys don't know who cooks are, they do these lovely, delicious and healthy for food bowls at Hong Lim Food Centre. They're very popular. And I think how I got to know you guys was because of some social media that was share, because of what you guys were doing in response to this pandemic and which was that you were going to provide free meals for whoever who needed it. And as a result of that, I think you had one of your customers start a foundation with you, right called Beng Who Cooks Foundation that basically started to provide these meals for free for all these people who, you know, are struggling to even have a nutritious meal for themselves. So tell me what what has been what it's been like for you guys? I mean, I know you're at your stall right now,

Jason Chua: [00:13:36] Basically all over the whole thing, right? I mean, we CBD area. I mean, Baker Boys should understand you CBD area. Business has already been affected since Christmas then later new year, then Chinese New Year. Then that was when Covid comes in. So me and my partners pay cut has been taking maybe. I mean, we are a small stall so our pay cut. We used to take like 1.5, 1.8. But nowadays we just take around 200 dollars a month. I mean, we we we are a food stall. I mean, we can cook all our meals are settled here. But overall business has already been bad. And even since the extension right. The announcement of extension on that day right the whole business has been crumbling around the whole centre. It's just not our stall. I mean. Also for like chicken rice stalls, those traditional western food. Even the one. Those one Michelin star food that they don't have a queue at all. You can just eat it and just come in order anytime, anywhere. They would just be able to serve you within five minutes. And their attitude has changed, I mean, sometimes they used to be very cocky, but nowadays I think everybody is desperate for business and they're all "Hi hi hi. Thank you. Thank you for coming". Yeah. Everybody is humbled down by this Covid. So sometimes this Covid it show a lot of humanity's side maybe to me I feel.

Petrina Kow: [00:14:49] Yeah. I mean, that's that's a good tip. Now I know I can finally go and eat my soya sauce chicken. No, but I mean, that's not the point. But I think also, apart from that, do you feel like what what made you and your partner decide to. Start to do these meals for the community,

Jason Chua: [00:15:06] Basically, because, well, my friend. Is because this announcement about these was on 6 April before the CB has started. That's right. She texted us saying that can we provide meals for needy people. And this was all before circuit breaker even announced. And I say we all wanted to do this. It's just that we don't finance backing. And that's when he told me. Okay. Don't worry about the finance. You guys just do. I'll figure out the finance. Of course, we really know, because as long as I be able to work out. I'll be able to come our the house, I'll still cook. Now, I said I'll do. Then initially it started on the on. The first meal was given was on 8 April. Then that's where caught news of like Fiona Xie. Channel News Asia. DJ Ross. And that's where it start sharing. That's were it's overwhelmed. We started giving our own 80 to 100 plus a day of free bowls, which I think is very unreasonable for the peopel sponsoring us for a meals because it's only one guy  sponsoring and there's like 600 plus 600 to 700 dollars. And this includes meal delivery. And that's why we start changing and implementing a lot of different rules. Like, nowadays I have to admit that, OK, I used to give 80 bowls a day. Now I only hive 30 bowls a day. Because there's a lot people that are not suitable to accept this meal. You had people wearing Rolex coming down to take free meals from you. Yeah, these's are some of the people coming down to take your free meals because we don't question them. That's not then that's where we start implementing the delivery charge and the delivery charge will chase away, people who are not really needy. Then when we see them they are carry, if they are carrying like branded bags or anything, right? We just chase them away. We we are not even giving them. But the main this is, we're ok with giving them because end of day we just want. We just want people ask us nicely. Because we have a lot of people asking free food like. Hey I demand you to give me this, I demand you to give me that. They use the word demand. Instead of can I have a meal? Or anything. We do reject a lot more than we give nowadays because we find that there's really people who needs it more than most people that is being accepted by society. There's a lot of outcasts that Singaporean don't see.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:26] I mean, I'm just curious because, you know, we we we all serving for myself and my my two friends, Janice and Pam, we we started a foundation. It started Pasar Glamour Art Aid. And even for something as as simple as that, just even coming up with a form to try and sift out people who might sort of abuse the system was so complex, you know, so I can't imagine if it's just as simple as here's a meal. I mean, from a very simple idea of wanting to help. Right. It somehow brings out, you know, different all kinds of different people. Right. So, you know, I think moving forward, if if you just sort of if you do, would you continue to do this again or would you continue the the foundation program past the Covid period. You think.

Jason Chua: [00:18:10] We will. We will. We promise like those people on our social media and especially Instagram. We thought, as long as Beng Who Cooks survive right, Beng Who Cares Foundation will also survive or because these things are interlinked it is just that we won't do delivery anymore. So if you're one you can just come down and at least tell us one day advance so that we are expecting our guests instead of. Like if you come down and we charge you. And say I have no money. And they'll be very troublesome. So. As long as Beng Cooks operate right, we'll keep giving out free meals, because if you if ever if ever you did something right you don't stop half way. I mean I just like, do it all the way.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:47] That's wonderful. And would you I mean, would you like the public to be able to help, meaning with the foundation? Can people donate to it so that they can keep the, you know, the support going?

Jason Chua: [00:18:57] No, because really, I myself, I wanted to set up of like a charity organization or something. But the procedure is not as easy as what everybody thinks. If you want to donate money or I do invest money issuing both. Right. Finance. Is on a different ballgame, because that's why I refuse to take any donations, even on dry goods and dry supplies right. Right. Everything I recommend do not give anything because we want to cater to vegetarian. Relocate to last last. If you'll give right. We are not sure if your stuff is halal or your stuff is a vegetarian. That's why we are avoiding people to donate money or even supply, because it's just not fair for who we are feeding. So to us. If you want to pay we will bear all the cost on ourselves and openness.

Petrina Kow: [00:19:42] Well, I just want to be on behalf of everyone, say thank you for your wonderful endeavors and your efforts. I think, you know, we just need to have more people like you, man Jason, and to know that we need more beings these days.

Jason Chua: [00:19:58] Okay. Maybe call it a humble bread or something. I feel that after we start this foundation. Right. There is really a lot of people copying this template, but it is good. Because a number of decreasing meals are also a sign of more helping. Yeah, I. What is it is the rejection helps, but it's also more people stepping up to provide free meals. Because even there's a NUS student giving out meals. That's the umbrella initiate giving out meals. So I'm glad it. I don't know that it is because of me on wall, but is a good thing that every Singaporean are stepping up their own ballgames.

Petrina Kow: [00:20:34] Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jason. And please, you know, continue. Good luck. I understand you have a food styled Iran, so if you have to run off. I totally understand. But do stay for the discussion if you're free here.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:20:49] Thank you. Do under. Thank you. Thank you. Jason, please stay on if you are able to. Would love to come back to you later on in the conversation with some follow up questions. At this stage, I do. It's time for us to travel across the Atlantic to to London, where we have Siew Yen Chong on the line. How are you. Am. No, we're really thrilled that you able to join this conversation, so I understand you're a volunteer, you've been doing a lot of work in London helping ensure the low income families have better quality food on the table. And I would just love to hear a little bit more about how you exactly do that.

Siew Yen Chong: [00:21:33] So I volunteer with two charities. The first one is Bags of Taste. And it's started in Hackney, which is where I live in East London. And the aim of the charity is mainly to help reduce food poverty, which is kind of defined as people not having access to good food or food. That's good for you. Whether it's because of price or whether it's because they are in places where there are no great markets and they can't get to it. And how it began was the founder was in a supermarket and she was looking at the shopping baskets of the customers. And so many people had like, you know, one pound pizzas already, meals that are growing at one pound in their basket. And she came up thinking to herself, she was like, well, you know, I could teach these people how to cook a really nutritious meal for a pound or less. And that's how the story began. So Bags of Taste create a create a set of cooking lessons. And then we have a set of recipes to go along with it. And basically every portion we cook is a pound or less. And when students come to our classes, they will cook and learn these recipes and then they are able to buy a bag of ingredients which are exactly measured. And also if it's one tablespoon of sesame oil, you will get one tablespoon of sesame oil and a sachet. So when you get home and you cook the meal, it will taste like what you've cooked in class, which encourages people to cook again. And once they get over that, like, oh, you know, why should I buy Singapore noodles, which is a very favorite, like top favorite dish to order on takeaways for six, seven pounds when I can recreate it for myself at home for one pound. And from there on, we reach out to the food banks in Hackney, the recovery service or drug rehabilitation, alcohol rehabilitation, homeless shelters, a couple of domestic abuse places. And the council also has lots of council housing. So if you have families or residents who are in arrears, there are also people that we target or people that go to the Jobcentre because they're looking for work. And so these are the people that we want to educate about the importance of budgeting, using measures when you're cooking so that you're not overspending and then your fruit tastes really great. And the thing that we do in our recipes is also encourage the use of spices so that people are looking at what they eat in terms of their salt intake and they're able to make their fruit more exciting because of spices and herbs rather than adding sugar or salt or eating takeaway, which is full of sort of salts, fats and that kind of stuff. So that smacks of taste. And and through that course, we are able to reach out to lots of. A lot of them, I guess, who live on their own, actually, in Hackney. A large part about a large part of our target audience live on their own. They're older. A lot of older men, 50 and over. Who are lonely. And so the cooking helps them to reconnect with food. But gives them a chance to socialize in a very non-threatening situation, which is, you know, I think people always find it easier to chat over food, whether you're a man or a woman. And and then I'm supported by a group of other volunteers. So I teach the class and other volunteers will help each student in the class. So in that way, yes, we are helping people by giving them cheaper food. But I think more importantly, the program drives behavior change, that it's possible to cook better and your food is better than the take away. And even if it means people eat like take away a couple of times less in the week, it means that we have achieved our objectives. And I think in this time of kov it, what we're finding, particularly living in London, is that the people who are in the black, African-American or Caribbean communities, they have a higher chance of dying from the disease simply because of obesity problems or because of that diet or genetic propensity. So having this idea of getting them to be aware of what they're eating and how they can control that kind of intake of salt and sugar, I think is an eat. It's an equalizer in that respect.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:26:03] And do you foresee that any of the things or the ways of approaching behavior change in in your work in London? Any of. Are any of these things transferable for the Singapore context? From what you know, what do you see as the situation here?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:26:19] I think definitely I think that the great thing about single boys, I feel that growing up anyway. It's always been food has been it's very democratic in Singapore. The fruit that you buy in a hawker center, you know, now, even with greater awareness of salt and fats, I think it's it's fairly healthy. It's actually quite good. You always get vegetables or something like that. It's it's so it's quite democratic. You can get pretty good food at a very decent price. And so I think that the practice that we have here of encouraging people to cook more often for themselves, I think that's probably something that should be encourage so that, yes, there's a great chicken rice store we want to support and it's our local like downstairs take away is very good. We can help out. But actually, how about encouraging people to sit down, reconnect with food and cook these meals? And part of the the the way that our recipes are designed is that they are designed so that you can cook with one pan on the hot seat or in the oven. You don't need you know, so you do have to pay a lot for electricity or gas bills. So I think, you know, is a really good way of getting people to cook together and reconnect with food.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:27:30] Do you do you foresee that there will be a challenge? Because, I mean, it was interesting how you can make the comparison of how much a premade meal in the shopping basket would cost compared to making something for yourself. And in Singapore, I mean, you know, the cost of of meals purchased at a hawker center is still quite reasonable. As you say, it's it's very democratic compared to the cost of preparing something at home for for yourself as well. There's this kind of I mean, some people talk about an imbalance depending on where you buy your ingredients. I mean, do you see that being a challenge here in Singapore?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:28:08] Yeah. These are not just in Singapore, I would say here as well. I think here maybe it can be a bit I don't know what it's like and what was kind of a bit detrimental. It's like, oh, you didn't buy organic or how can you eat chicken? That is, you know, a pound fifty for like half a kilo. I mean, you know, but if you've got five children and you have to look after all the parents, you haven't got much of a choice. That's kind of what you know. So I think bags of things is good because it doesn't judge. But what it tries to encourage you to do is that in every say in a recipe that actually has meat in it, if they are serving two people and I was getting down to details, it would be less than 100 grams of meat per person. And that's how we always bill our recipes. So. And you want to have meat? Sure. But it's 80 grams of chicken, 80 grams of minced beef for one person. So if you make two portions, you know, 80, 80, that's 160. So when people when we cook with people, they look at it and they think, oh, my God, this in this spaghetti bolognese is only one hundred eighty grams of meat. And everything else is carrots and celery. So I think in Singapore you you can do exactly the same thing where you teach people about a portion of ingredients that you put in a recipe, particularly the protein versus vegetables, and that will help you overall reduce the cost of a serving. So I think that's another way you can. Teach.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:31] Yeah. I would like to take that course myself, because I tend to over like today. I decided to roast a tray of vegetables and I realize I had roasted the entire head of broccoli, one whole carrot, one whole like cauliflower. And then the next thing I know, I'm like I have like, these two giant trays of vegetables that my two kids, just sort of like scoff at. And then like, you know, open a pack of instant noodles themselves, you know. So it's sort of like how well I try it.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:30:01] So at this point, I'd love to bring in Bjorn Low into the conversation. Hi, Bjorn. Hello. I'm good. So you're joining us from Victoria in Australia right now. Did I get that right? That's right. And so I know you as a pioneer and a champion for urban farming. You are a co-founder of Edible Garden City. And, you know, a lot of this discussion, just a recent discussion with Siew Yen is kind of talking about produce people encouraging people to cook for themselves. Talking about the cost of produce as well in a city like Singapore. And I'm curious to hear what have been your thoughts as you've been hearing, not only the conversation, but also your observations of of just how people are dealing with food. Against a backdrop of a pandemic?

Bjorn Low: [00:30:45] Well, it's definitely an a very interesting time for for everybody, especially in the food industry and in the farming space. Well, whilst there has been a lot of hype and talk around food security for sustainability and Singapore being in a very challenged position, there's also a lot of chatter, news out from the global food supply chain. Saw you see all farmers in the US, if only on Australia, having to plough their produce back into the ground because a lot of the food system is built on these centralised production system, massive systems of supply chain. So if something breaks, everything goes to the ground. So farmers are actually losing a lot of produce, dumping milk. They are throwing away eggs because the supply chain is broken. And then on the other on the other hand, you have people now going hungry. So something is massively not balance. And this is potentially a good time to really look deeper into the food system on how we can balance that equation. A lot of the work that we have done in the past in urban agriculture is to look at decentralised production systems. So, for example, we are in what should you be in, for example? In Ang Mo Kio, where we are producing food for the local community in the space itself and not and reliant on a lot of outside, you know, changes and things like that. So it's the local community supporting that movement. So it is very trying times, even for the food producers as well, although you see a massive amount of demand from the consumer side that there is that inability for the farmers to bring their produce to market because of how the model has been built up on efficiency and because there is no efficiency. Now, a lot has been lost to this whole crisis.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:32:58] So I'm just curious. Going back to you were mentioning before about your work with HDB estates and Ang Mo Kio in particular, and I'm curious, pre-Covid 19. What have been some of the headways, you know, stopping for more? It should be a states getting involved in a project like that.

Bjorn Low: [00:33:17] So in the past, we are doing urban agriculture has always been a very challenging industry. Yes, because agriculture is based on the economies of scale model while in urban spaces, you know, it is small and that's only that much you can build. Vertical or scalability is always a challenge was infrastructure cost is high. Our model has always been to be produced, producing floor restaurants and hotels, you know, a high value type produce on very short turnaround times. What we now need to to look at is really it's kind of changing that model to really produce higher amount of skill for the larger population and the general public on produce that they eat every day in order bok choy, chai sim. But that competition as well from from overseas. You know, in Malaysia and Thailand, the produce are a lot cheaper. And it's always, you know, our producers always a premium. But what we found actually is starting to to work a lot in this space in. For example, Yorkhill, where we started a project called Ah Kong Farm. We found it actually urban farming. It's not only bringing up tangible values like the produce, but also the hits on the intangible portion of community engagement not being socially isolate that elderly out from your homes to participate in something like urban farming, growing produce together, eating together. It has so much more benefits in terms of mental wellness than just filling a tiny, so solid that there is a lot more that a lot deeper into it. But of course, the focus now because of a food shortage is stand production. But we want to look at the picture holistically now.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:14] And I love that because I am also noticing with just, you know, anecdotally amongst my friends, everyone is propagating spring onions and, you know, growing their own garlic and, you know, tending to the herb garden. And then I myself have quite a successful sweet potato leaf situation happening, though we haven't quite harvested it to, you know, fry one dish of sweet potato will be as yet. But but I think, you know, I think it's making people really sort of think about this. Right, rather than go to the, you know, market just to get one sprig of, you know, spring onion as a you mean so easy to like propagates spring onion. Why did they never do this before? You know,

Bjorn Low: [00:35:53] There's always two sides of that. So you have one group of people who give it a go. And so while it's so hard, you don't buy chili plant keeps dying. And it's like, why don't you just go to the supermarket? I spent two dollars. I get all these chilies whilst while you are spending all five months of your life trying to get this shit plant to produce. I think that effort you have the other group of people that I like here, it is a very difficult process to grow your own food and the value of food a lot more. And then that has done a latent benefit on addressing food wastage problem because the Singapore will be true several hundred thousand tonnes of food last year while importing 90 percent. So again, that this balance. Right. So we see these kind of changes in a lot of young people going through that process. Well, to say it is really hard. Maybe we need to appreciate a lot more what these farmers are doing overseas, you know, to grow food. Let's try and waste less. So it has it has it can go both ways.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:36:56] So with that, I would do want to kind of put it step into a solutions mindset for a moment and ask both Siew Yen and Bjorn to imagine that you were bestowed with the power to change the food sector in Singapore and in Asia. And what would be the top three things that you would do as soon as you were given this power? And I want to pass that to Siew Yen first. What are at the top three things you would do?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:37:21] Ration cards. If I had a power for 100 days, I would put out ration cards so that I think households you can only buy stuff that is on your absolute essential needs, For 100 days and then you will learn to be creative. You are learned to stop throwing things out and you will learn to check, to smell, to rely on your senses before you go. This spring onion looks a bit soft. I going to throw it out. The celery is a bit soft and you don't really reuse things in ways. So I would introduce ration cards and I sit and only because I think that this whole Covid situation has amplified the inequality in, say, my household versus, you know, the households that I'm helping right now. I, I because of bags of tears and other work that I do, I'm so scrupulous about food waste now, but I'm sure before I'm probably as guilty as anyone else. So I go ration ration card.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:38:28] Ration cards. Great. Thank you, Siew Yen. How about your Bjorn?

Bjorn Low: [00:38:31] The one thing I'll do is turn Singapore from a Garden City into an edible Garden City and pass a policy that we have and can plant durian trees all around our roads, mango trees, soursop trees, and everyone have then free access to the food. That's not so hard to do, right? They're spending a lot of money by putting in these giant ornamental trees that costs thousands and thousands of dollars and in all places like that. Why don't you just grow a fruit tree so everyone can partake, you know, even the wildlife as well as so. So that's what I would do. Pass a policy and make that a reality.

Petrina Kow: [00:39:10] I wonder vote Bjorn as minister of food. Ha here that you've got me at free durian man on the side of the road.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:39:10] Everybody's clapping. I see all of this round of applause on the Zoom chat. Everybody's classing

Petrina Kow: [00:39:25] Free durian. Oh my goodness. Oh, okay. For now though. Thank you. I just like to take the opposite. All our guests today for coming on the show. But for now, a very special guest as well who is also joining us. And he I know as a well-known voice on the radio, but when I searched him up, he also says he's a 25 year old music making, sushi eating love machine. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Joshua Simon to the show. Dude, have a good love machine. Hello, darling.

Joshua Simon: [00:39:59] I'm pretty sure that was my Tinder bio from like five years ago. Actually, I'm actually turning 30 in a couple of weeks, so I'm so sorry you got the press release a little bit later.

Petrina Kow: [00:40:10] I think you can just keep it there. Keep it at 25. It's a ok.

Joshua Simon: [00:40:13] Keep it 25? I'm going to be one of those? OK. Yeah, I just stopped counting. I just celebrate anniversaries from here, Andre. Wow. I've so many things. I want to say this conversation. And first off, OK. Juwanda. I have not had carbs in three and a half weeks. I've been on keto. I've been on this keto diet because it's sort of like my way of helping a friend's business. I'm she runs this thing Keto Me, which is like a subscription delivery service for, like keto friendly food. And then that I was vegetarian for three months. So to go from vegetarian to eating only meat is like insane. And I miss carb. Like I'm a carbs person. So I will I will eat everything in your bakery, like. In one sitting like I need rice in my life. Right now it's serious. Okay. And. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna go try Jason's food as far as like Googling, like Beng Who Cooks and like the food looks so great. It's like it's like eating like salad bowls. But in a hawker centers. Like what. I spent like twenty dollars for these kind of bowls or then like I'm a sucker for an onsen egg. Like you're onsen eggs look amazing. And it's like super overpriced in the malls.

Jason Chua: [00:41:26] Only six dollars.

Joshua Simon: [00:41:27] Oh yeah.

Jason Chua: [00:41:28] Unless you add.

Joshua Simon: [00:41:29] I'm so there I was so gonna come to your store and like that was such an incredible like. That segment earlier on with you.

Jason Chua: [00:41:29] Just remeber to tell me whether you're paying or getting one of the free bowls.

Joshua Simon: [00:41:41] I will definitely be paying. Oh OK. You like the free bowl stuff. Just got me like so riled up earlier on like this period. So many people want to beat up that. Yeah. That was really cool. Yeah. Hi. How do I fit into this conversation.

Petrina Kow: [00:41:59] Well I mean, I don't know if you I mean you have some thoughts about food and sort of where you wanna go or do you and just just offer your thoughts through your artistry and sings your song.

Joshua Simon: [00:42:11] I mean, there are still so many questions like free form for Yen Chong. Like what is Singapore noodles? I see every time when I travel I we do not have Singapore noodles in the sample. What is Singapore noodles.

Siew Yen Chong: [00:42:22] I know. Makes my heart curl. I just got bee hoon with the curry powder in it.

Joshua Simon: [00:42:30] Huh?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:42:30] I know.

Joshua Simon: [00:42:32] Budget bee hoon is it?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:42:32] It's got turmeric and you like cumin in it as part of the mix.

Petrina Kow: [00:42:38] Yes, strange. I suppose it's like breakfast bee hoon, but they they forgot what spice and the just anyhow add.

Siew Yen Chong: [00:42:43] Instead of sambal. They go and put turmeric and cumin.

Joshua Simon: [00:42:47] So confusing

Siew Yen Chong: [00:42:47] Wahlao.

Joshua Simon: [00:42:48] I have not I have not done the delivery thing. Like, I like going out to get food. I like like interacting with the people that I work with, like I eat about the same. Like I can eat the same thing every day and not get sick of it. You know, like there are like certain restaurants or cafes that I go to and like we like. I know, I know the people that stop there and everything. So I like that interaction. I don't like just food showing up at the door. Like, I only just signed up for like like online banking recently. So I'm one of those rare millennials that just do not trust the Internet. I do not trust Amazon. And like, I need to physically, like, pay. I still have vinyl records, you know. So I signed that person. It's strange because I feel like my family my family is not super well-to-do. Like we've always, like, struggled with, like bills and all that kind of stuff. But then, like, of all things, I feel like during this whole corporate thing, I can see how spoiled we are by ridiculously spoiled. We are. And like like when we open the fridge, there's just so much groceries in there. Like, my sister will do a run. My dad will draw on my mom and I'll come back thinking that, OK, I'm buying them for the whole family. And the whole fridge is just like chock full of stuff. And the covers are filled with like, OK, there's a canned food. Why why do we have canned food? We never get canned food. But then we have like every ingredient, you know. So I've been challenging my family to just stop buying stuff and just finish what's in the fridge, because it's really annoying when I'm hearing about how people are not getting enough food, you know, and like, we complain so much about our bills and then you open the fridge and everything is there. And then like you, I'll hear like a family member, complain about how they're hungry and like they're going on Deliveroo, "like go to the fridge, pick up a pan". All right. And I've been cooking, OK? So I've been cooking. And it's been dreadful. Like, some people are just gifted. Like I watch Master Chef and I'm looking at these home cooks, like prepare these incredible dishes. Like, I can't cook an omelet. Like I you would think that with the right ingredients things, which is cool, but just something messes up. It's either like, OK, I burnt something or I put too much oil or like too little seasoning. It's just like I'm just not cut out for this. So like one thing great as I do host the show at night on my radio show, I like to say to someone like, what I've been doing is I've been sort of intermittent fasting, waiting till like later in the night I pack something I eat much. Later on, I wrote a song called All I Wanna Do early during this, when the fears of the pandemic are creeping in, mainly cause I felt like even listening to this conversation, I feel like I, I did not achieve much in life is like at least you guys, you're like in it, you know, you guys are really in it and you're, you're in the grime and you're like working through and trying to find a way to help. And, and I'm just like I sing like what what is this skill set, you know, like I you know, so I thought really purposeless. And what I started doing on my radio show is I started opening it up. I didn't think too much about it's like super wrong for me to do this. But like, I've just been like allowing anyone who has a business that's either, like thriving or trying to keep their head above water, like, come share your story. You know, like I have a friend of mine, Douglas Park. He has a hawker store called like Fishball Story, you know, and he's using social media. It's really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he still owes me fish cakes. So he is using social media to sell his fish balls and he's directly like he's getting his friends to come help deliver, like he's doing everything by himself, you know. So that's incredible. I heard that Nando's is is giving up free food every single day until the 1st of June. And just like Jason, they're not doing any checks, you know, just by good faith. If you need a meal, we'll give you a support meal. That's it. So feel free to come onto my show today. I have a friend, Lucas, who represents Singapore as a speed skater, and he is he's not able to go to the rink now. Right. So he is helping because he's super tech tech. He's a super nerdy. So he's been like refurbishing laptops and giving it to kids who don't have money to get like a new computer during this time and they're working from home or whatever. So he's been doing that, you know, and every artist that I interview, like yesterday I spoke with Hailee Steinfeld. She is a pop star and one of the youngest to be nominated for an Oscar. And I've been asking this one question, which is like, what is the role of an artist in a pandemic? You know, and it's interesting. I'm still gathering answers like her. I'm not nervous about.

Petrina Kow: [00:47:29] Sorry, go ahead and get you the head. You finish her answer.

Joshua Simon: [00:47:33] Her answer was about how I think she was still trying to figure it out as house as she was. There is a pretty intense question, huh?

Petrina Kow: [00:47:41] I mean, no, I mean, I think because we had an episode earlier about artists and the role of artists, and I think our conclusion from that, if you want to listen, you would have listen to that first before this one. But basically, I think I want to encourage you and say, don't feel like you're not doing anything. You're doing heaps. You have a show. You're connecting with listeners. Right. You're providing a platform. And you're such a connector. So. And you are an artist. And I think for especially these times, the artists always lead the way. Right. We we find ways. We get creative. And I think what what I've observed with the people in the food industry, because they're the ones a first hit and hit the hardest and the fastest. But they're also the ones who are the most creative and the ones who come back fast and nimble as well. Everyone has had to really sort of dig deep and find all kinds of ways to really sort of pivot, you know, get together. And and I think it does bring out the worst and the best. And I like to think that I think, you know, it depends on how you look at it. I think we we have to allow for people to take that journey no matter what it what it is. But, you know, food is so fundamental. Right. And in it, I mean, we can say, oh, art is like the last thing we like. If if we were to sort of do the whole OK. Now we're going to relax. The one now. Okay, we can open the first dollar store. But now what is bubble tea? It's like. Okay, like those things will open first, light, whatever. But then the arts venues will be the last to open. Right. So that's that's still way back on the thing. But food food is always on people's mind. Food is always the first thing. So in a way, I think that that hunger or that that essential need is is so primal and is so it is really the reason we exist. And we like to say food isn't just about filling a tummy. Right. Even though sometimes on the on the most essential level, that's what it is. But we've all talked about that communing, that coming together as a community, even just as the dignity of being able to provide a meal for yourself, especially if you live alone. I really find that that's it's really quite special. So I was just thinking, I think, you know, I would love for for learning how to cook and feed yourself a nutrition to be one of the subjects we learn at school. You know, so that Joshua will know how to make an omelet.

Joshua Simon: [00:50:05] So I actually MOE's defense. I did I did do better nutrition. OK. But I was also dreadful at that. Like, I made spaghetti carbonara by just getting, like, spaghetti from the shelf at the supermarket. And then I use Campbell's Soup like Cream of Mushroom as my carbonara sauce. And it's it's actually pretty edible.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:27] It's quite tasty. I have to.

Joshua Simon: [00:50:27] Don't thumbs down Jason. Don't thumbs done. I just gave you a brilliant new item to add?

Petrina Kow: [00:50:36] No. Took almost no carbonara. It was very interesting, actually. I'd say that a lot of people went when when the hoarding started. Right. And people wanted to like, panic, buy and buy stuff. People who don't normally buy canned food just set. It's the buy canned food. Like, I know I was doing that. I was like, yeah, maybe I need like a can of Ma Ling, like luncheon meat. Now, you know, it's like I never, ever buy it. But suddenly I have three cartons and there was all this and I still haven't cooked that insulate. So yes, I am guilty hoarder.

Joshua Simon: [00:51:06] And a lot of people in my life, like dieting in a pandemic, is such a privilege. Like everyone is just talking about the diets that there I'm like, oh, my God, I should get off at the end of it. Like, you have so much food. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I wish I wish there was just better synergy. Like, I like I want to help. The thing is, I don't know where to start. You know, like, I know what to do. Okay, great. I have all this food. I've got others in my kitchen. I start cooking stuff and I start giving it to someone. Who do I give it to? You know, so like, I just wish there was just a better synergy or even. Okay, like, great. I host a radio show. I can be a catalyst. I can help like all people to these businesses, you know, letting them come onto the show and promote your your business and your product. That usually would cost a lot of money. I just wish there was. Yeah. Once this thing started to engage us, engage the artists.

Petrina Kow: [00:51:53] You can is what I'm saying, Joshua. So it do you. Before we go and have you sing us out, any, any last thoughts, Laurindo.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:52:01] Yeah. So I do want to make sure we touch base with each of our guests before we wrap up today's show. And really the invitation is to, you know, share what is one thing that you want our listeners to know based on today's discussion. And perhaps we start with you Juwanda. What's one thing that you'd like our listeners to know?

Juwanda Hassim: [00:52:19] I think, you know, I know the. Dark clouds and shit and stuff. I think there's still hope. I'm the one who's so hopeful. It brings me to tears, but I just really cook things. Things will get better.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:52:38] How about you, Jason? What's one thing that you want to make sure our listeners know? Based on today's discussion.

Jason Chua: [00:52:44] I really want people to know that. Toknow that there's a website. Facebook Group call Covid Idiots. Right. Yeah, I just want people to stop. Yeah. Yeah. I mean put yourself into someone else's shoes and stop framing and scolding them. And then that's not really cool. But most of them that appears on the page. Are the ones without social media and they do know that being framed or being scolded. That's a very sucky feeling to be felt lah. If you don't even know. Why it is you're being scolded.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:53:08] So to have a heart.

Petrina Kow: [00:53:11] Lovely. And how about you then?

Siew Yen Chong: [00:53:13] Definitely reconnect with friends, you know, pick up the phone. Obviously, Zoom calls a great and all of that. But I think if someone that you want to speak to and you haven't spoken to for awhile. Pick up the phone. Do that. Read more. I'm finding myself reading a lot and really enjoying walking the streets. And really, I don't like looking at trees a lot, looking at like I can hear, but every morning more than I've I have in a long time. And I really I, I stop and actually take my time. So I think that's a luxury and I'm making the most of it and helping others whenever you can.

Petrina Kow: [00:53:53] Thank you. And to round us off Bjorn?

Bjorn Low: [00:53:55] Yeah, I think hope is that for you something that is really important. Hold on to. I hope everyone can continue to hold on to that. But on the flip side, I feel that, you know, mother stuff has been very well taken care of in the last six months. You know, with all the emission that has gone down the flights grounded that perhaps I really hope that we can all look to what's a better future with a better economy that says a lot more sustainable for the future. So that that is that's my hope.

Petrina Kow: [00:54:29] Great. Thank you so much to all our wonderful guests who've joined us here today. And I think, Josh, would you want to just tell us a little bit of a song that you got to sing?

Joshua Simon: [00:54:38] Oh, right. Yeah. This is a song called All I Wanna Do. And it's a song that I think a lot of us can definitely relate to. It's and it's a desire for escapism. It's also how I feel sometimes when I feel like I don't know where I fit in. I just kind of want to disappear and just like, hide my head, you know? So, like, it's this song is about anxiety, but it's also about escapism. And it's colorful. It's fun.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:55:04] Thanks to all our guests, Juwanda, Jason. Siew Yen, Bjorn, Joshua, really appreciate you taking the time to have a chat with us today. If you'd like to find out more about our guests, please check out the increasingly Web site. We'll be providing links to everyone. Please remember to like this podcast and share view. Your feedback will help us improve. Make sure you subscribe to us on the Apple podcast, Spotify and also YouTube.

Petrina Kow: [00:55:27] Thank you very much for joining us. Until next time. I'm Petrina.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:55:31] And I'm Laurindo Garcia. Thanks for listening.

*JOSHUA SIMON SINGS ‘ALL I WANNA DO’*

The coronavirus forced the education system to adopt home-based learning almost overnight. Could this new way of learning lead to better outcomes for student from low-income families? Hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia examine whether home-based learning is the solution for a more inclusive education system with guests Felipe Cervera from Lasalle University, Secondary 2 student Yu Xiao Qian, Amanda Chong from Readable. A special musical performance is also offered by educator and composer of Wild Rice's Peter Pan Julian Wong.

TRANSCRIPT

Shiri Kenigsberg Levi: [00:00:00] MONOLOGUE IN HEBREW

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:04] So that is the voice of Shiri Kenigsberg Levi. She is a mother of four in Israel who, as you can hear, is expressing her frustration. And that frustration is about how she's had to learn, you know, what seemingly was overnight, how to homeschool her kids. That clip came from a video that she initially shared via what's up to her group of friends. But inadvertently, that video got shared and ultimately got over three million views. When Sharon Stone and Victoria Beckham shared it through their respective social media feeds and I received that video while I was in still in New York in early March, and I immediately forwarded to one of my team members who was also having to struggle with homeschooling. I'm curious, Petrina, did you see did you see this video?

Petrina Kow: [00:01:04] Yeah, I eventually made its rounds to me and I absolutely feel her frustration, though. I thankfully have older kids, so I don't I'm not in her predicament. I mean, already it was kind of like. All right. You know, I mean, my my daughter is fine to 17. She's sort herself out. But like, I can't imagine with primary school kids are pre-school kids, like any of you have like four under the age of ten. Like, first of all, you have to have four working computers. You have good Emet. You're going to help log in, everybody. One on I can use. It's close to impossible. So I, I, I definitely feel her frustration.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:01:44] So welcome our listeners to another episode of Inclusively. If you've just tuned in, we've recently reinvigorated and renewed our format after a hiatus over March and April. We've changed the format to examine lessons learned from the coronavirus pandemic. And our goal right now is to imagine how these lessons that we've learned can contribute to a more inclusive world. If these things are sustained and scaled up. I'm your host, Laurindo Garcia

Petrina Kow: [00:02:13] And I'm Petrina Kow. And today's episode, I guess very aptly with that opening, is on education. And I think, you know, for me, education has been obviously it plays a very close. It is very close to my heart. My mother was an educator for many, many years. And now I am find myself in that position as well. And I think in my journey to find the best sort of educational path for my children, homeschooling, something that I've actually done with my with my daughter at least four when she was primary five in primary six. And I mean, at the time also, I kind of did a cheat version. I did actually do it myself. I found other people to educate my child. But I think back back then, I mean, this was like maybe like eight years ago now that on those online platforms were not as readily available, though. Now, when I speak to homeschooling parents. Most of them are getting schooled online with various different educators or just educational providers. So it's not a new concept. But I think for people who generally are used to, you know, normal school and being in a physical environment with everybody else having to suddenly switch and do that all from home will have immediate effects on both. Right. You know, just families and the students themselves. So it's definitely a huge sort of shift that everybody is finding themselves having to make.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:46] Exactly. And to set the stage in Singapore, at least, Home-Based Learning was implemented from April 8 for all students and one schools close who presented challenges for educators as well, who had to learn quickly how to deliver their their content online and overcome some of the assumptions that they had that their subjects could be taught in this fashion. Also, for parents having to then provide the backend, technical support and the coaching and all of these things and then the students as well. You know, all of a sudden being separated from there, from the classmates, from their friends, being an environment where there are many other distractions. And I think one thing that I've also observed is that how this situation then illuminates the situation for students from low income backgrounds. Many low income families live in smaller rental apartments. There is insufficient space for for privacy and conclusive study in these environments as well. For many of these families, they rely on loaned or donated computing devices. They may not have stable Internet. All of the time. And so and there are there other issues in there as well. So we're going to be tackling a number of these issues from a. No different perspectives today.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:01] Yeah, and I think best also to hear are from an actual student who are very happy to be joined also today by a Sec 2 student, Yu Xiao Qian, who will be sharing her story of what it's been like for her. And also, we have lawyer by day and educational champion by night. Miss Amanda Chong, who is a founder of a non-profit organization called Readable. And the mission is to beat poverty one word at a time through their reading literacy programs right here in Singapore. But for now, I'd like to introduce to you a dear colleague who is a lecturer of acting at Lasalle College of the Arts. Please welcome Dr Felipe Cervera.

Felipe Cervera: [00:05:41] Hello. Hi. Thank you for having me. Also, how are you. Yeah. Good, good. Very happy to be here.

Petrina Kow: [00:05:49] So how has it been like I mean I think for you guys dealing with that. I mean towards it was kind of close to the end of the semester where most of your students would be preparing to do their productions. Right. Their year end productions. And they were about to sort of like get into theatres to open. And then the lockdown. And so what was that like for you guys?

Felipe Cervera: [00:06:09] Well, actually, we started moving online very early on. Since. Singapore declared code orange, a.k.a. Dorscon Orange, and that already limiting our capacity to have students and numbers of students in the in the room along with a lecture. And, you know, I think that the best way to contextualize all of these is that as a teacher of theater, you can already appreciate very early on in the pandemic, they, in fact, that the impact that these will have to the very notion and practices of theatre and dance and performance and performing arts are naturally something that assembles people together. Right. And they assemble it right from the get go off on rehearsals to presentations to mingling after the performance. So coming coming to his essence and as a school of theatre, that also impacts because the the pillar of the ancillary pillar of any performance, pedagogy is to be in the same room with your lecturer, you're learning body to body. Right. And once you can, you can have that poses challenges. So what we did was very early on when Singapore declared Dorscon Orange. We move the theory classes online. We had limits of more than 25 people couldn't gather in the same room. This is before a social distancing. These before we, like the policies, began to be a bit more refined and complex in the immediate reactions. We weren't able to gather more than 25 people in the room. So naturally the theory classes were the easiest wants to transmit to nine. We started using soon as the rest of the world. Then eventually things started to escalate. We have two legs of productions every semester. Halfway through we have a round of shows and then at the end of the semester we have another round. By the time we hit the first round. So this is late February, mid mid-February, early mid Feb, late February. We weren't able to to to have audiences. So this this was a challenge because you have a production that has been has been rehearsing and by production is not only the actors, it's also the Fear Trap Production Management program, which we also have at Lassalle. So it's the actors. It's the designers. It's the a crew and you can't sacrifice. I mean, it therefore really gone through the rehearsal process, which is fundamentally in the learning experience. But the performance is a culmination of that experience. So it was it was a tricky negotiation. In the end, we decided to go ahead and have the productions without an audience and record them just for the purposes of of of of writing an assessment. Then we went into the process of staging the second leg of the productions, which also through the the the graduation shows, because, you know, this is the second semester of the academic year. So you have graduation shows of the dance program or the musical theatre program, of the acting program. Ah musical recitals. You have all the shows of graduation cohort. So. These. This for us was something very important to mind because it was not only one if if we were to sacrifice these productions because of the pandemic, it wasn't just another production. It was a production with which the students present themselves to the industry. And that's that's that's important. We went ahead planning with productions and then the lockdown happened the week of off of tech rehearsals for us. Yeah. Around. Well, not not for all of the shows, but around tech, we can, you know, the very, very last week or two weeks of the production process and we had to cancel. And so that that's. That was painful for us, for our students, because we appreciate was more. We're a big school in the size of the big picture of numbers. But our problems are relatively small. So, you know, the graduation call, the graduating cohort of the acting program, for instance, has 13 students. And you know that, that as a teacher, that makes you care for this, who is very, very deeply and you really feel sad for not being able to offer them the opportunity to culminate of training as as a stopgap solution. We we we went to produce some performances, the diploma in performance staged a version of the reunification of the two Koreas. That was very nice. Currently, the actors are preparing us song version of a new play by Chong Set Chan, House. So there's all these solutions. And I'll just be my intervention when I'm saying that there is I think that is very willing to be very aware that there is a distinction between the series of measurements that we're rolling out at all levels of education from basic middle, middle, high and higher education. All of these are emergency reactions and they have posed problems because we have problems of digitally literacies and we also have problems of digital capacity. This is what you were saying right in Singapore, because it's a wealthy nation. We tend to assume that everybody has a laptop. And furthermore, that everybody has a room to be in to study with the laptop. And we fail to realize that a significant part of the population doesn't have a laptop or has a shared laptop. And too, there is a real problem in Singapore is that we have a significant amount of students sharing their homes with three generations and you can't ask for privacy. So that's that's a challenge right now. But moving forward, we also need to realize that there's a distinction between online learning, distance learning in a formal setting, what distance learning program is and what we're doing. What we're doing is really just adjusting to the contingency. And online and home based learning is is is a reasonable tool to resolve the contingency. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we're moving to online teaching in the arts. Right. This is a significant distinction because in our community, that creates a lot of anxieties. If I go and tell my colleagues that, I think that we need to move online. Obviously, my colleagues are not going to be in agreement because how how can you possibly teach acting through a screen? I mean, you can teach acting for the screen, but not theatrical acting. Right. And so there's that pose challenges in the long run about higher education in the arts. But these are different. I think it's important to have a clear overview of where we're dealing.

Petrina Kow: [00:13:04] Yeah, I mean, I, I, I know that this conversation's happening in a huge way and being a hotly debated in the U.S. with my friends who are teaching in that, you know, the big sort of acting schools in the U.S. because they're looking at not even returning in the fall season. They're they're looking at maybe even 20. Right. And so so if that's the case, do they just shut down the schools? Do they continue online? Like, how do they and you know. And I've also heard from reactions of students who are in these acting schools writing for refunds or at least part of their fees, sort of at least given back to them, because this is not part of the education that they paid for. If they're going to get an acting degree and not know if it is being taught, you know, in a space that is satisfying or at least but will transfer the skills, then, you know, what do we do? What do we do with that? So with that in mind, I also want to bring in into the into the conversation another educator. He is a writer and composer of music and a brilliant musician. Mr. Julian Wong, who actually teaches music at ITV here in Singapore. So tell me, what has it been like? You know, the acting is one thing, but music.

Julian Wong: [00:14:16] Thanks for having me. I, I, I think it's it was very painful in the beginning. I have to be honest. I think you are pushed out of your comfort zone very quickly as an artist, as an as an educator, if, you know, even push like shove, you know, thrust it. I know all the government teachers tell me they had one day to try out home based learning and then they were told the next week, OK, they're going to do this for the whole month. And then a few days later, sorry, we cannot use Zoom anymore. So, you know, I, I find myself to having every day to learn something. You know, at first I went to. And then from Zoom to Google Hangout to see to so many things I've never heard of before. You know, in in my private teaching, I've I've found that some students work better with online, especially students who tend to be more introvert, you know. But I do feel that definitely I accomplish less in the same amount of time. And there was some discussion among teachers that, you know, we should really look at adjusting our fees a little bit, you know, because we are spending you know, if I'm teaching music, for example, I can't really give very specific feedback. I'm not I'm not fearing that kind of projection or the resonance, you know. And if you teach an instrument or just like that or, you know, if I teach the violin, especially to a young child. Right. You know, there's such liveliness in that that contact plays. That's important. But you have to grab the hand or the bow or the other wrist. Right. And you just cannot do that. And I know a violin teacher who told me that, you know, she's had to activate the parents a lot and have the parents in the in the room. And it can can you help to shift the wrist up a little bit? Or put the bow down? You know, I I found that this whole experience for me, I really had to look at what I can control and what I cannot and then forget what I cannot control and look at how I can adjust or level up my usual practice. You know, for example, with choirs, some of us do break up rooms for sectionals. Right. So I think the ten isn't a breakout room, but because of the technology, they all have to meet themselves while I play and sing to them. Right. I don't know if they're getting it. I also cannot ask them to sing back to me because Zoome sort of cuts everyone out if they speak at the same time, they sing at the same time. So that's always an issue. And also like what Filip. Felipe and Laurindo were saying that I think we assume that no, stay at home, then at home we assume that everyone's home is conducive. My godparents, both at primary school teachers and they have two children in primary school, probably five and probably three. So they've gone from one family laptop and sadly, all four need each a laptop to learn and to teach from. So that's been tricky.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:46] Yeah, it's that it's definitely one of those things where, you know, we and I don't know if this is something that at the end of our ministry obviously didn't have enough time to plan for. Maybe they were planning for it because I think there was a lot of discussion in our household list, you know, that it's like, hey, guys, when are you guys going to move to online learning about there's all this discussion going on. And I think, Felipe, you're I think I left I was probably on the earlier schools to sort of start to roll out those programs because we were just like widgets. We just kept speculating, okay, maybe next week. And he made me think me, you know, but nothing was happening. But even with my daughter's school, I think, you know, how come y'all are not like anytime now and and anytime now, you know, it's gonna happen. But then I. Oh, yeah, that testing. But even the teachers don't know it, so it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence at parents. Right. But yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:34] Felipe, thank you for sharing the story and my heartbreaks when I had to hear about the cancellations of the of the shows and also, Julian. Thank you for sharing also about how you've had to adapt. And, you know, it really blew my mind when you were telling me about how you had to learn how to teach violin using Zoom. So please stay on the line. We're going gonna come back to you in a moment. I do want to shift the conversation and open up the conversation to hear about a perspective from a learner, a student. I'd like to welcome Xiao Qian to the show. Welcome. Thanks for joining us today. I'm just curious. So. So can you just help our listeners understand a little bit more about your context? So what year are you in at the moment?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:19:20] I'm Sec 2 this year.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:19:21] Okay, fantastic. And can you describe for us what your homeschooling setup is like at your home right now? Can you paint a picture for us?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:19:31] Well, it's just like a comp. A laptop in front and like, with. I have a table beside. Beside me. So I have two tables. So one table is for my laptop and like writing materials. Then another table is where all the worksheet are stored there. So that is easier for me to take when I'm having on life lesson with teacher. So I can take and just start doing the work.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:19:59] Ok. And then what's a typical. How or what's a typical day like for you. How. How are the lessons like? What's the the structure like?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:20:08] So I think maybe having lesson is just like same as the normal school day. But the different things is that I can wake up later. I can wake up later and start doing work later we. So I think is kind of a good thing for us, for students because everyone wants to wake up later so that we can have more time to sleep. And then and also. But sometimes because I have a old laptop. So you will be very slow for me to like switch on and yeah, I have to wait. But then there was once I switch on the computer. Because I know that I might be late. So I wake up early to switch on the computer to wait for it. So. But in the end I was late for class because it was still uploading. So I was late for class. But I'm thankful that Readable, they did give us a new laptop for us to use. So you'll be faster and better for for my HBL.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:23] How did you find out about Readable?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:24] So that they said, place called catch far centre.

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:21:29] It's like a student care where. Uh. They have lessons. There's tuitions for us. So Readable is one of the tuition. Ya And now my friends asked me to join Readable because they say it's like it's fun. And we learn a lot of things from there. That's how I know about Readable.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:21:50] Okay. And without the. Without the laptop that you received from Readable, what would have this period, this homeschooling period been like for you? Can you imagine what it would have been like?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:22:04] I wouldn't have like. I wouldn't have like lessons because the laptop is really like, really, very old. So the laptop will keep on like uploading a new version or something. So it really takes a lot of time. So I thing I wouldn't have like a full lesson. And actually the lessons. I feel like, oh, sometimes I didn't learn a lot because. Because when you have questions, some teachers they don't allow you to talk. So they ask you to type in the chat. But then sometimes like uh. There are some questions that is easier to ask. Like face to face. It's very hard to type out. So that's why sometimes I don't really understand some of the things that I will ask my friends or like other teachers.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:58] How are you keeping in contact with your friend during this period?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:23:02] So I usually use WhatsApp to chat with them. We also chat about homeworks. We don't really chat about other things. Because uh. Because I'm also scared that they might be busy with their own work. I have other stuff to do, so I don't want to disturb them and so we only chat. We don't really video call each other and talk about like other stuff.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:23:28] And and how is the your family coping with your home schooling situation as well and how you know, and having to provide support for you during this period.

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:23:40] So my mom here, she's like she's a cleaner. But she's different from the normal cleaner. You know, she works at people's houses who clean for them. And because of the Circuit Breaker, because she cannot go out to work anymore. They she have to stay at home to like spend time with me. And I know it's kind of a bad thing because there's no income at all. But ah like. But I'm thankful for Teacher Amanda. Because she. She find friends to help me, pay my school fees. Because I'm a foreigner. So my school fees is quite high. It's like 1000 plus a month. And because my mom can not go to work. And we don't have enough money to pay for the school fees. And Teacher Amanda find her friends to, like, give some money to me and help me. So I'm really thankful for that. And for my mom. She. I think that it's not really a bad thing that she can not go out to work. Because when she go out to work I don't really have enough time to spend with her. Because she go out in the morning and she come back, really, very late. So we didn't get to, like, talk to each other a lot. And now she has a lot of time with me. And I feel that. After. During this Circuit Breaker. I understand her better because we we spent time together and we think we know each other more.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:20] Do you and do you have siblings? Sorry.

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:25:24] I have a older brother. But he's working looking China.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:27] I see.

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:25:28] So he's not with me.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:29] So it's just you and mom here at the moment.

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:25:31] Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:32] Right. OK, well no. That suddenly is so wonderful to hear that. I mean, it's, it's always when you hear these stories that, you know, you you, you know, we understand that. I mean, I think I recently saw this post that was, you know, we're all we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. Right. I mean, we're all experiencing the effects of Covid 19, but everybody is having a very, very different experience. So, I mean, you've mentioned a few times this mysterious teacher, Amanda, perhaps now is a good time to talk to you. Amanda, thank you for what you do with readable and, you know, connecting us with your chin and, you know, making education, you know, a fundamental thing. Right. Like, so to be so take for granted is something that we complain about endlessly in Singapore. Right. But yet, you know you know, when you hear a certain story, you feel like, you know, yes, there is there is so many people who are fighting so hard. Right. To just get online. It's the basic thing of getting online to tell me what it's been like for for you guys. It readable in terms of your own programs and your outreach and how you guys have been running your own programs, you know,

Amanda Chong: [00:26:47] So Readable as a non-profit organization. And we're all volunteers and we've been working in the Chinatown Jalan Kukoh neighborhood for us since 2014. So this is our seventh year off of operating in that neighborhood. And we typically run language arts classes our every Saturday. So we teach from pre-school upwards until the Readable Champions, which is our teen program, which Xiao Qian is part off. And all of this is very interactive. Real life lessons. But we've also had to move our operations online. And one of the things that we also noticed was that a lot of our kids did not have laptops. So before the HBL program started, know with MOE, jump. Just saying that everyone has to be online now. We managed to distribute laptops to 40 children that we had and our care and we were really very thankful for donations from the public. And we actually managed to get some of the kids laptops, which are nicer than our own personal laptops. So I think that's that's wonderful that that happened. And it's just testament to wonderful donors who bought brand new laptops for their kids or gave really good laptops to the kids. And that was just so vital for the children because many of them never and never had a laptop at home or like Xiao Qian's experience. Xiao Qian's laptop she'd had it since she was in Primary One. So, you know, it was already malfunctioning and we had a lot of those stories apart from that. We also heard stories about some of our kids not doing home based learning in an environment where they're like nine people living in a one room flat. And then the challenges of being able to listen to your class. So, you know, we've had to distribute our phones as well. And also even getting online, we take it for granted, you know, with with Wi-Fi, with 3G. We've had many students whose parents were actually in arrears for their Wi-Fi bill. So they were not able to connect to the Internet. And so we jumped in with Wi-Fi dongles. And it's really just been troubleshooting like for the first couple weeks. I was just getting everyone online. And then it became, how do we take our lessons online? And so my teammates. And each each group got various challenges. So those running the preschool class, it's how do you keep the children engaged on an online class? Right. And for our preschool levels, we teach both literacy and numeracy in our program comfortable. And we've used to run them as two separate classes. But we had to combine them into one because we realized that the children were not going to be engaged for several hours online, because usually we we we conduct our lessons in a very kinesthetic way. So, you know, we have circle time. Have song. We have dance. And we use blocks to teach numeracy. But we don't even have these things when you do a Zoom class, right? So we have to reform the classes. And I personally teach the champions, which is the teens class. And again, we've had to modify it. But what I found pretty cool was that, you know, we can actually write together using Google Docs. So we just end up trying to explore what opportunities that are in the online space and using online tools. So now we use a combination of whiteboarding on Zoom, as well as breaking out into smaller groups for like one on one attention as the teams develop their own Covid reflections. And we're able to talk through an edit. As the teams are writing. So what you. And essay with Xiao Qian using that method. And going back to the theme of the arts. I know a couple of people who represent the arts of. What was really exciting for me was that we were able to watch local plays with our kids online. And, you know, the whole concept of putting plays online. Right. Because they're actually a lot of teens and children who do not have access to the ads, usually because it is expensive in Singapore. And Wild Rice has has actually helped, our Readable kids have access to that. Yes. So every year you see the mine. And know wonderful memories of the pantomime. Xiao Qian has been to several herself. And now we weren't able to introduce the kids to sort of more things, different types of theater, not just pantomime. So we saw Haresh Sharma's play Those Who Can't, Teach. And this week you watch Supervision. And I think it's it's really fun that we get to watch these things together and then discuss them. And this wouldn't really have happened if we were all not sat at home. Right. Because like now, when I asked when I'm like, what's keeping the teens? And I'm like, hey, let's watch a. And they can give me any excuse that there's something else to do because they don't like everyone. Sure. Of Zoom. And that's and that's what's just pieced together and discuss it. And, you know, I put. I really enjoyed listening to kind of reflections that the kids have on please. And I think that just opens up a whole new kind of universe that wouldn't have been opened up otherwise.

Petrina Kow: [00:32:04] Yeah, no, that's amazing. You said that because we just had a conversation in our first episode with them, Ivan, and in various different arts practitioners of of the theater companies and how they've responded to that and how they've managed to put you know, they definitely weren't expecting the the the response that they were getting, because there's always this fear with theatre company is putting their play online that, you know, it's just not the same. Right, guys? So don't expect this to be a multi-million dollar camera, you know, like production. But I think what what we did find in terms of that connection, like you said, was that it is completely finding a brand new audience for the people who don't normally consume art this way. And so so 10 fun fact. Munky goes West is is starting tonight. They're putting Monkey Goes West. And I think Julian was the musical director. Right, for Monkey. No, you're not. You you laugh. You were for many others. It's very likely you would have watched something that Julian was the pocket we saw Peter Pan last. So I said, oh yes, I wrote I wrote that.

Amanda Chong: [00:33:10] Ya. Xiao Qian do you remember seeing Peter Pan in Serangoon Gardens last year? This Julian, I can't really point to him. What's the composer? He composed the songs on Monkey. On . So Julian, the composer songs on Peter Pan. Wild Rice.

Julian Wong: [00:33:30] So she's so excited you can see her. Oh, my God. The stuff. He I mean, I thought the music and Peter Pan was with some of the most beautiful that I've heard. Honestly, you are a genius, Julian. I am not. I'm not shy to say you're not shy, but. But yeah. And I think that's wonderful. You mention that because the arts really does have. I mean, in a way, the way you've approached that of teaching and with preschool, there's so much of it is like you you said in that sort of kinesthetic way, we use song and dance and music, you know, so I think for sure, at least for for preschool. Like I said, I don't know how to teach preschool on an online environment because just thinking of even pressures, outdoor time, you know, for them in nature, which is something I think Singaporean kids don't get enough of anyway. Right. We're so used to be an air conditioned rooms. But I think it's wonderful that, you know, we've. Whilst we've had so many challenges. We've also found sort of new ways to engage with our students. I'm wondering if that was something that you experienced while putting that through your your curriculum in the online space for both Julian and Felipe. Like, did you find that it was more just, okay, we'll just make two? Or did you feel that? Okay, maybe the online space has opened up new things for your students or you've been able to connect in different ways?

Felipe Cervera: [00:34:49] Yeah, I think I think two things. First is, a, I think it just called the point that moving theater online, if if deployed properly and deployed smartly, as the companies in Singapore have, is really about gathering new audiences and inviting people that don't regularly think of the theater as a place to hang out, to hang out. But I should also say that there needs to be follow up with an awareness of the arts because of the higher education. And we have companies collapsing because productions were cancelled. And so our funding was caught. Actors are not getting paid. Directors are jobless, designers who are jobless. So, you know, we're adults. How we're graduating actors into an industry that has these biron at the moment. So one on the one hand, online theater is making it such a positive impact on on on the on the lower levels of education in higher education. It's a massive crisis. Global. Right. I mean, just to give you a sense, Singapore has one BA acting, one BA in musical theatre, one BA in theatre study. All the other theatre programs in the JCs, the Intercultural Theatre Institute. Sorry two BA  in act. The ones NAFA, diplomas in performance. Singapore graduates hundreds of theatre makers every year. And right now there's not a. The industry is shut down. So if the second effort to build audiences is also to be all donations, because next year the art, the art scene in Singapore is heavily at risk. That's that's one. And secondly, to answer your question, Petrina is a yes. So certainly I think that the first legs of the crisis was where reactive. And I would initially, as things were, to force-feed everything. What we do, put it online however you can. Right. And obviously, that led to discoveries like, oh, OK. So online learning is much more about independent study. So, all right. So I don't lie in a technique class. I can I can show the technique counting that the students are of a certain level and know the technique already and then they can go on and practice and send videos. Right. And we need to leverage that to avoid retraining. So the student is not doing things wrong. Right. Even the individual. So that that eventually, not only Singapore, but globally, led to a really cool stuff. There is softwares, currently. Platforms, currently. The programs are putting lectures like just shots, snippets or a like an online lesson that go to, you know, breathing lessons, technique lessons, voice lessons, acting lessons. There are obviously not a substitute to the face to face synchronous teaching, but that opens an entire area of performance training that we didn't really have. Fear out there is asynchronous learning because that's another thing. Rather, we thought that the online transit has to be synchronous. Right. What we're doing right now, talking at the same time, but not necessarily. Once you think online, you're opening. Also, the possibilities of a student learning by themselves. And so that's that's something also very important to think about and something that I recommend that the teachers that are under MOE have also discovered. Is that this is not your only to rely always to me seeing the student. Right. You can also rely on independent learning and your hands that so, you know, metacognitive skills, critical thinking, problem solving. One of the other things that can go online much better. Right. And another thing that I have discovered in my classes is that the the online environment also opens the entire world literally. Right. I had a few weeks ago, I had a research seminar with my students and I had a colleague from Belgium giving them a talk. Then after that, a colleague from Tokyo after that calling from Singapore, the chat groups also put international connections. So I had this about an experiment that I've been conducting, pre pandemic. That is, I have a colleague in Florida, a colleague in Australia, Sydney, teaching my students are being of like facilitators of activities using telegram and what's up? So the classroom becomes like a flip guardroom series. Come to me. And with this course of other projects by the creation of a project is happening in mentorship with someone in Australia. Right. And that does really good. But that gives a global awareness that the student that is, you know, is really positive.

Petrina Kow: [00:39:49] Yeah. That it it is possible. How about you Julian, have you found that you've if like anything about moving things online.

Julian Wong: [00:39:56] You know what I realized about this process? I learned so much from my kids because they learn so fast, I am sure. So tell you what you know about this Padlet and quizzes and Kahoot. Right. You're all into it now. And it was it was an 11 year old who had to teach to be. Yeah. This what we do in she taught me how to share screen in whiteboard on Zoom, you know, and without them I would not be able to to to have all these skills that these extra tools. I think it's it's it's also important to know in this time that, you know, the very science that says that it's dangerous for us to to gather and do the things that we used to do. It is also that the science that will move us forward with we've thrived and performed through terrible infectious diseases before, you know, measles, polio and all that. I this period should be so much that as educators, resilience is is so important that, you know, putting that in the curriculum, the process of becoming and helping students believe they are worthy and capable of overcoming challenges. And how can the arts bring out the best of us in this worst of times, whether it's music, theatre or reading? I think. I think these things the goal is to think beyond individual differences. You know, life is bigger than yourself. And if we can apply these values in the spirit of collaborating more effectively, making changes, then then there'll be less people who are left behind. You know, in prepare, I went to the website of Be Inclusive and I was reading some of the research that Laurindo had done. And it was quite shocking. And I, like only one per cent of businesses, know how to activate jobseekers, consumers from underrepresented groups. And there's a lack of resolve, a lot of excuses among leaders to translate words into action. I think sometimes it takes a crisis like this, you know, when it's literally life and death. But you've no choice to show that it's not impossible. It is a lot of work on our part. And and it's a lot of work to put in that extra effort. You know, as a teacher told me, to go from groan zone to growth zone. You know, we you know, it's so much easier to stay in the groan zone. And I mean, look at Wild Rice talked about. I just now it's I think they're the most inclusive theatre company I've worked with from the different kinds of performance for the deaf that touch to us in the audio narration for the blind. The sensory friendly performances for audiences on the spectrum. The full wheelchair accessible audience and actors. You know, it's it's a lot of it, but it can be done. Necessity is the mother of invention. Now that we are now forced to change by this challenge, we die a day. We'll find the possibility and create the alternative. Know, and I think this should not stop when we go back to normal. Because who knows what the new normal will be. Germany. Church, as I said, they said no singing the National Association of Singing Teachers said there until there's a vaccine 95 percent chance that we cannot get together and sing, you know, and then will audiences return to a theater or a concert hall? Maybe the question we should ask is, how do we present music to an audience in a socially distanced whole or financially? Is it even possible they know it will indelibly affect the nature of our work and our practice? You don't have to move away from large venues, you know, cut labor management, cut marketing budgets, you know, because there's no sense in marketing something so strongly. If your original venue can only sit 25 percent of that capacity. I think. So many issues to think about.

Petrina Kow: [00:44:05] VR man. Virtual reality. I mean, you know, absolutely and and I love that you mention all those in, you know, inclusively angles as well as it's something you wanted to weigh in on Lau.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:44:18] Yeah, I'm just curious. I mean, Felipe and Julian, thank you so much for sharing the lessons that you've learned over the last couple of months. I want to bring Amanda back into the conversation here. You have been advocating for changes in the education sector for such a long time and based on some of the things that educators are doing differently these days. I'd like you to imagine what you would do if you had the magical power to change the education sector, but you only had that power for 100 days. I mean, what would be some of the things that you would want to implement while you had that magic wand in your hand?

Amanda Chong: [00:44:58] Wow, what a weighty questions.

Petrina Kow: [00:45:00] Limited power. Why only 100 days.

Amanda Chong: [00:45:04] And I also think that 100 days thing is is a huge constraint, because I think the kinds of changes that need to happen in the education system have to go way beyond that. And I really do think that for me, what I find problematic is, is streaming. And I'm glad to see the education system moving away from that, because I don't think that kids should be categorized and taught their limits about who they are in terms of their identity and what they can do and what they are good at. I'm not good at. So are the on. And I really do believe in increasing resourcing to schools that are not elite schools. I think if we're going to see that every school is a good school, then we need to actually make it, practically speaking. That's why not just use it as better. And, you know, it's very interesting for me because one of the players that we watched was those who can teach by the necessary speech. And that was about teachers teaching in a neighborhood school and there reflections on that. And that opened up the space for some of my students and I, including Xiao Qian, and to discuss the differences between the schools as well as neighborhood schools. And I think one of the key things actually SRN said when I asked her what are the changes that we need in the education system or what does she think makes a good teacher? And she actually said and I'm going to just your answer, because I think it's really good, is that she said that ultimately she believes that teachers need to have hope in their students and not just one kind of hope, because I think the impression that our education system now is that there's one mode of success, which is academic. Right. So we just hope for their student success. The impression maybe that they hope that they succeed academically. But the thing is that students have so many other ways that in me thrive and succeed outside this academic measurement. Right. It could be that they have talents in the arts, that they're really good at cooking, that they're going to pursue a career that is completely unheard off today because it just hasn't been invented yet. And I think the biggest change that has to happen is for teachers to really have that space to cultivate talents in their children and to give and to have that room in the classroom to a far different types of success and not just the academic type of success. And I know that they're fantastic teachers currently in the Singapore education system. But I think when you have so many buttons on them in terms of teaching content curriculum, it is very hot to do that walk off like affirming children and and kind of showing them different paths to success. Right. And I think maybe we need to reduce the content in our classrooms and cultivate more relationships.

Petrina Kow: [00:47:58] Yeah. And I'm so glad you said that because I think, you know, thinking about what Julian and Felipe has offered us as well, is this idea that actually it doesn't have to be so content heavy in class. Right. You can do all that stuff online. You can see. All right. Make sure by the time you come to class, you finish reading like this bit of this page. Right. And then, like, put some reflections, like, you can take that out of the space that we share together and then cloud the classroom situation can be completely transformed. I'm just very quickly going to just share that experience about watching my son. He has traditionally not performed very well in just general schools and classrooms, but yet everything that he's become proficient and great at. He's learned on his own in his own time through the YouTube. Everything from skateboarding to magic tricks, to the Rubik's Cube, to the drums to guitar. He has learned from YouTube, you know. And so it's getting him a music teacher was a very recent thing because he really had a certain level of skills. But. So so in a wave, this online platform, it seems a foreign issue to two educators, yet just watching my son, I know that he is performed very well. Learning that way. It still does not, you know, replace, I think, having somebody help mold you and inspire you. But I think it really does sort of inspire me, at least as an educator, to to think about how we can use the online platform in a much more inclusive and, you know. Yeah, sort of like creative ways. Right. So in a way, just blowing it right wide open and just, you know, getting input even from our students to say, what can we do together. Right. Stuff like that. So I think before we wrap, is there anything you wanted to add, lol?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:49:47] No, no. I think before we wrap, I would love to hear from each of our guests. And really what we'd like to hear before we end the show is one thing you'd like our listeners to know based on what you've heard from today's conversation. I'd like to start with Felipe, if that's okay.

Felipe Cervera: [00:50:05] Yeah, thanks. I have two thoughts. The first one is just to echo what Petrina just said. I think it's super important. And one of the ways in which we can make this equation much more inclusive is to distribute time, time in the computer, time of the computer. Right. Home based learning is known as highly online. Online is a medium. But you also have the rest of the day to something to consider. There is that traditional teaching implies that the means of instruction is the same means of learning. But distance teaching is these associates that write instruction is hard. Something else. About having a companion, a tutor to touch base with learning happens elsewhere. And the second way is that just as how, at least in Singapore, the government reacted very quickly with funding for digital performance and somehow making livelihood's available. I would like to hope that the follow up reaction when, as is highly, be funding to reactivate a public space. And in that sense, I think that is also important to the future, ready and be thinking of the ways in which performance heals. The ways in which performance reassembles. The way in which performance occupies public space. Because even though things will change, the public space will remain. The public space and is is at least in Singapore, is such a cornerstone part of living in this city that you will need to be reactivated. And, you know, the performing arts are probably one of the first ones.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:51:47] Thank you. Thank you, Felipe. How about you Xiao Qian what would you like our listeners to know based on what you've heard today?

Yu Xiao Qian: [00:51:54] I think everyone needs to have like openness. I think, especially teachers. Because if teachers don't have openness. They don't like believe in the. They don't believe in their. Students. Thinking that they succeed in their own ways. And they will only believe that they can only succeed if that academic is good, then I think they because I heard a lot of my friends and so myself think that, oh, well, this teacher, that's not like me. So then that makes me to like. Not really. I listen to that teacher. Or like do their work properly. So so I. I think it's not like to see that he just must meet students like them. But I think teachers should believe in their students. Because my friends. They already. Because this subject they didn't do really well. And the teachers were like scold them. Or like. Maybe say that. They directly say that oh you didn't work hard. But they will use another way to. To. To say that. Oh you oh you didn't work hard. So. I think they are trying make us try our best to so that our academic will be very good. But I think. Like some students like me, if I don't really like their teacher, I won't really like. Pay so much attention to class because I think, oh, the teacher already don't like me. So why should I put in the effort. What do you study well. Sometimes I will feel like that.

Petrina Kow: [00:53:39] Yeah. No I think that's all of us. It's just only human. We also feel like the two bosses. Well also don't like us. We also don't want to do the work. Well, how about you, Julian?

Julian Wong: [00:53:54] You this building on what Xian Qian said. One of the things that I really noticed this period is how empowered my students are. You know, I realized because I can do so many things for them anymore. You don't that it's you know, it's you warm up before you meet me on line or you watch this instructional video and then we use that time on line to talk and discuss it. I cannot go in supervisor recording's. You have to go and call your friend, set up the Zoom and do it yourself. And actually, they're very good at it, you know, so that's made me reflect as a teacher, as an educator, maybe even in my normal practice, I shouldn't be holding my students heads so much. You know, we just know what Amanda and Felipe really said really struck me. You know, I I think if there's one thing I want people to know is that non-essential doesn't mean not important, you know, because in much the theaters were among the first things to be shut down and labeled purely as entertainment venues. And I remember I was recording in a studio at that time and the news came out. I thought, what did that performing arts just become a luxury? You know, it's so much more than this. As Felipe and them in that shed, you know, theater, music, literary arts, and inculcating a love for these things. It's important in our world. We are often untouched by the problems of others. You know, we live in the world of data that leaves us disconnected, overwhelmed. Sometimes we seldom feel a part of the we but a good play like those who can't teach or a good novel or painting or a piece of music, it makes the world felt. And that feeling spurs discussion, empathy, thinking, engagement and action. Those are relevant and crucial values that should not be put on hold when we deal with a crisis. You know, I think about the Great American Songbook. If you listen to sounds like cheek to cheek, all begin to begin. I got rhythm. Without knowing anything about history, you wouldn't know that there was a Great Depression. You know, on the one hand, there were artists who accepted and engage directly with the realities of the depression. Edward Hopper, the painter, said the province of art is to react to life, not to shun it. But some artists also choose flight over fight, right. Among other important things, it cannot be measured in sheer economic terms. Art serves as an escape for some, you know, escapism of a terrifying reality. And and that is an equally valuable reflection off in reaction to a crisis which can be very paralyzing. So in whatever way we choose, it's I think non-essential doesn't mean not important in whatever way we choose. The arts helps us to make sense of the world, you know, and know that we're in this period of disruption. It forces us to explore and make discoveries and make mistakes. And like T.S. Eliot said, at the end of all, exploring is to come back to where we started and know it for the first time. And I think it'll be very interesting for us to see that and hear that and feel that when we come back to it.

Petrina Kow: [00:57:19] Oh, that was so beautifully put. I feel like I. I can't wait. I can't wait till I'm like I dream about the moment when I'm like, yeah, I'm like sitting in the theater, like with the lights dark and I like, ah, that moment, you know, like it's it's so visceral but yeah. It's so real. Thank you for thank you for putting that. That way. I really love that Amanda.

Amanda Chong: [00:57:42] Well I think I'm echoing the sentiments of quite a few of the guests that you have today. I think having to reset our patterns because of Home-Based Learning actually forces us to listen to each other a bit more. At least that's what I had to do as a teacher. I had to speak to the students to find out what. How exactly do they want to use this time and space that we have together? And then upon doing that, I discovered that the students are incredibly s direct, that they have their own interests and passion. It's a seven year old boy who I taught how to read when he was each four. He tells me that he's interested in philosophy. And so we've actually arranged philosophy classes for this boy. He's incredibly bright and he's learning about ethics, metaphysics and epistemology. And I told him he's 10 years old. I mean, I've never I didn't know these wasn't seven years or and I never would have thought that this would be something that I was interested in. You know, if I did not actually take the time to ask and I probably would not have had to ask him, you know, if I want in the second book context and thinking about how I should use this online space. And I think that similarly, I'm just impressed all the time at the kind of self directness and the capacities that my students have like Xiao Qian, for example. You know, I found out just before Circuit Breaker got that she had been trying to teach herself how to play the piano. And she actually watches YouTube videos and she wished for affordable keyboard for a Christmas wish list last year so that she could play along with these YouTube videos. And I saw in her house that she had actually drawn up a musical staff, you know, with all the notes. And this is a girl who has never had the chance to have formal musical lessons. Right. And and then, you know, we managed to contact connect with someone who is a trained chemist. And for them to do piano lessons. Right. And it just impresses upon me as someone who's in the education space that, you know, we need to listen to our students, that they have their own passions, they have their own dreams. And our role is really to follow along with that and to just show them what they can become and be the first person to say, yes, I think you can be a pianist. You know, like it doesn't matter that you're only using affordable care. No, I believe that there will be a day that you could replay an entire song. Yeah. So I think that's what this time and space outside of our normal patterns has shown me.

Petrina Kow: [01:00:18] Yeah. Now, that's so inspiring. So I should just keep I should I should allow my son to keep doing his magic. Is that right?

Amanda Chong: [01:00:28] Yes, definitely. Who knows? He could go to Las Vegas.

Petrina Kow: [01:00:34] It's day in and day out. Mommy. Mommy. Pick a card, pick a card. And I'm like. Oh, okay. All right. So thank you all so much for your sharing and your stories and for, you know, just some of the insights have been so, so transformative, I think. And I mean, I'm I'm so moved just listening to all of you. And and just to just to sweeten the deal a little more. We have a very special song that's prepared by Julian. Julian, do you want to tell us a little bit more about the song?

Julian Wong: [01:01:08] Because Laurindo asked if I could do a little performance and I was thinking, what? What could I possibly do? When I ask you a lot about the educators I have spoken with and discuss issues with him and, you know, especially the ones that teach in government schools, they all tell me about, you know, as they are scrambling to get things in order. This is all being written in real time by the non educators, which then, you know, throws them all over the place and it creates extra stress for them. And they all tell me one thing, that it's the little things that let know when students and parents say thank you. The school's appreciate the effort and the families and their own families be understanding, you know, that money can take care of you today. I mean, it's a big battle class, you know, so and even as I make that transition and teach and teaching online day to day, I find that I'm still taking little steps to improve. So I'm constantly reminded during this period it's the little things that make a big difference. I remember there's a song from Sesame Street called Little Things. And so I you know, it's nice to hear a Sesame Street song. I go back to a simpler times. So this is The Little Things by Joe Reposo.

Julian Wong: [01:02:29] JULIAN WONG SINGING LITTLE THINGS BY JOE REPOSO

Petrina Kow: [01:04:09] I forgot about that song. That was such a beautiful song, and you sang that beautifully. Thank you so much.

Julian Wong: [01:04:14] Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. Be nice to meet all of you.

Petrina Kow: [01:04:17] Yes. Felipe. Amanda Chong, thank you. And Xian Qian. My name is Petrina Kow. Thanks for listening.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:04:23] I'm Laurindo Garcia. Thank you for listening. Please remember to like us. Like this podcast. Share a review. You can subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify and also YouTube. And we will catch you next time. Thank you very much.

With all the closures of entertainment venues and cancellation of shows due to Covid 19, is there a silver lining for arts lovers and performers with disabilities? Hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia examine inclusion in post-pandemic arts and entertainment with guests Prashant Somosundram from The Projector, Wild Rice's Ivan Heng, Ammar Ameezy and Grace Lee Khoo from Access PATH Productions plus a performance jazz musician and Sing! China sensation Joanna Dong.

*****

TRANSCRIPT

Janice Koh: [00:00:00] As we all know, there's been widespread cancellations of shows and the closure of entertainment, any news crossing report. And because of that, it has severely impacted not just people like ourselves who are performers, but thousands of Singaporeans who work behind the scenes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:19] That was Janice Koh, one of the co-founders of Pasar Glamour, an organization who set up the emergency relief fund for performing artists in Singapore who lost their jobs due to Covid 19.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:31] Hello and welcome. My name is Petrina Kow and we are your hosts for Inclusively.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:38] It's nice to be back. I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:41] I know it's it's been an interesting journey because we started, you know, a couple of episodes in and then, you know, Covid 19 happened and they were like, okay, I think we need to take a break to see what all this is about. And then so then, you know, halfway into it, we're like, oh, my God, I think this is time for us to jump back in. And hence the new format and hence us doing this live with guests and everybody. And so today is our very first episode doing that. So bear with us if we're, you know, technically all over the shop. But we're figuring this out as we go along, which is the best way to figure things out.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:01:17] So our listeners may be wondering why why are we restarting right now? And after a long conversation with Petrine and we were really thinking about how we could contribute to the conversation as the world starts thinking about what post.com, what post-Covid 19 world look like, what would that world look like? Because so many companies and organizations have responded to the pandemic by trying things that they would never dream of doing. And we thought that it would be an opportunity for all of us to reflect and consider how the lessons learned from the coronavirus could contribute to a more inclusive Asia if these new things that people or organizations are doing were sustained and scaled up.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:00] Yeah, and of course, we decided to start the whole discussion with, you know, with the lens in mind from the point of view of the arts and culture, it's something that's very close to my heart. And, you know, thinking about what's happening in Singapore, I think we've seen, you know, the people on West End and Broadway sort of lead the way with offering their shows online for free. And I think quite a few theatre companies and, you know, arts venues have also started to do that here. And I think, you know, bearing in mind a lot of friends and artists are, you know, at home now without jobs, but yet are finding ways to offer their work somehow and obviously on a much more online sort of space. So today we thought we would gather a few of our friends to come and discuss what they've been doing, what they've been up to, and how they've been responding to this whole Covid 19 pandemic choreographer and filmmaker Aamar Ameezy.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:02:58] You will be joining us and to provide us with a glimpse of what could make arts and entertainment more inclusive in a post pandemic world. We'll be speaking to Grace Lee Khoo from Access Path Productions.

Petrina Kow: [00:03:10] We will also be hearing from one of Singapore's most recognizable jazz voices, Ms. Joanna Dong, who has been doing a whole bunch of exciting things from the comfort of her own home. And she'll be filling us in on the details of that. But first, I'd like to just introduce our first guest, who is joining us from a very special place is one of my favorite cinemas in Singapore, the projector. He is the general manager of the projector, an independent cinema on Beach Road in Singapore. Ladies and gents, please welcome Prashant Somosundram. Hi Prashant.

Prashant Somosundram: [00:03:52] Good morning. Morning. Thanks for inviting me to here.

Petrina Kow: [00:03:56] Not at all. So I am on your mailing list, so I get your sort of like, you know, offerings all the time. And I think the recent e-mail came to me was was a very special one. And it really was such a, you know, an honest offering from from your team about what it means to have this community. So I guess with that in mind, could you share with us how the projector is has fared, you know, and or is or is responding to the crisis at the moment?

Prashant Somosundram: [00:04:24] So maybe I'll just find it a bit of a background on The Projector. Those are not some inevitable. But, I mean, it's a six year or cinema now. It started out with a kind of fun and abandoned space. Oh, 1970s. Yeah. Which wasn't used for many years. And, you know, we actually started a Indiegogo project to partially fund this in the last night. It was already, you know, from the community really we started building this space. So we really had a lot of community support from the get go, which. Loudest is to survive, you know, in a time where everyone was kind of going online to so far as it was, you know, in building this space, it was always a bonding facility and bringing people together in that space and building that kind of community energy. So what's a lot about fun and participation and stuff that you can do as a group? So and, you know, Covid 19, it kind of filled our entire space was kind of thrown out because we had built a lot of our identity around that space. So that's how it was. It was really an interesting time for us to then take stock and see what, you know, if this was the reality. And probably will be for I'll be six to nine months. And we do run a business. So it's not a nonprofit organization as such. You know, we have a team of 14 full timers to feed. So I think, you know, for us, the when the closures were announced, we were kind of already planning for it because we were looking at what's happening around the world and we get a sense that this was impending. So we've already planning for it. But the immediate part was to try and figure out a bit of a cash flow for, you know, one month or so which which we'll find him. And the community really came in. But, you know, vouchers, tote bags and stuff to help us get through the first month of closure. But I think very, very quickly, we also realized that this is going to be a bit of a longer thing. And even when we reopen, you know, social distancing is probably going to be a permanent thing for a while. And we also saw that in China's in a mass open and then closed again because that's a second wave and all that. So I think we had a bit of a mental switch and we were like, OK, we need to figure out what the projects are. Community and the projects will be in an online space. And how do we've been trying to fight for a bit of that community in a very crowded space, actually, because you have, you know, multifocal what we are offering, but there's tons of options. And so how do we value add to this experience? So I think much of our conversations in the last six weeks has been around that. The good news is we've got an idea license to it's going to a streaming space. And then now we're working on the tech and the licensing with all our content providers to figure out what we can do. And see because it's going to be a challenge, because we will be like a paper. Whereas, you know, Netflix has this entire slate for a very low price kind of thing. So how do you get your audience to be willing to pay X amount for? Is that an experience? Yeah, a lot of philosophical questions that, you know, at least now we have the time to do it.

Petrina Kow: [00:07:57] And it's so I mean, it's so heartbreaking in a way, listening to this, because, you know, I think when we when we had that community and you thinking about gathering and I think what I what I loved most about the you know, even though I wasn't very much a part of it, but I just loved seeing that you guys were doing so many fun things. You know her. There were all these different nights, you know. You know, so it really sort of included and and brought in communities that were normally maybe not included in a cinema going experience, you know. And do you find that this is the community is sort of coming, you know, that that you're still sort of reaching out to and that you're still hanging on to? Or have you found new audiences perhaps that that was not part of the projector experience before?

Prashant Somosundram: [00:08:51] Yeah, sure. Sure. Never. That's a great question, because, I mean, this is what we are finding now that we are being forced to go into the online space is actually we are reaching out to a lot of people who may not have even been able to or may not have been willing to come to the cinema. So there were I mean, you know, we have now a family. So like, you know, I have kids and all this. That's why I left what you're doing. But I couldn't bring my two year old up three of that. But then now they're having access to this content. And the other thing is, is just, you know, I mean, recently we've been streaming I dream of saying, oh, which is a documentary about migrant workers produced by Glen Goei, directed by Wan Pin. I went in. So this. Yeah. I mean, it was and then we had a talkback session with a migrant worker and, you know, the Ethan from TWC2, which is an NGO that works with migrant workers. And usually we would do this in the cinema. And, you know, you'll be preaching to 200 people who are probably already sensitized to the issue. Whereas now doing it on Facebook life and having there recording and being available to everyone. The number of viewers are far beyond our traditional outreach methods. So I think it's great for us and for the Web that we are trying to do in terms of create, you know, platforming content and also generating conversation around this content. It's allowing us to reach people who may not have come to this in a month or so. It's actually a great opportunity for us.

Petrina Kow: [00:10:29] And I and I love that because I you know, I think for a lot of the theater companies that I, you know, I am close to or I've spoken to, I think initially there was a little bit of hesitance to to kind of put their shows online or past productions, because a lot of the times the the technical aspect of these recordings were not meant for broadcast. Right. It was it was just archival. So there was a lot of like, oh, you know, you're not gonna get the real experience, blah, blah, blah. But I think when the eventually sold for example, I know at least for Wild Rice, when they put Emily on, they were suddenly not expecting the kind of response that they got into the hundreds of thousands of views within a couple of days. And, you know, lots of people responding from all over the world. You know, I mean, even people who've never really watched Singapore in theater before suddenly were discovering it and enjoying it and and really connecting to that that piece of history and culture that Emily was. And it's just I think for them, I think has been in quite mind blowing in, at least for. It gave a lot of hope for the other theater companies to kind of go forth and do the same. And I think they're really doing like I feel like when what I'm hearing from all the different theater companies of how they're offering and and what they're finding, this seems to be that kind of thread that they're finding new audiences and they're being able they're able to include people that have traditionally been sort of maybe, you know, how do we how to even market to this group of people? Will they even come, you know, that kind of thing? Yeah, yeah.

Prashant Somosundram: [00:12:01] No, I think I mean, I would imagine that five years down the road. Now we will all look back on this and see this as a great opportunity for us in terms of how we have expanded audiences and even tried an experimental new methods. And, you know, offerings in a way. So, I mean, for The Projector, they're basically looking this and, you know, let's let's see what we can do if that's two months that we are practically given away. I mean, there are survival issues that we are addressing. But, you know, let's let's see what we can do from this. And, you know, come our stronger after that.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:36] Thank you. Passion. So I do invite you to stay on as we start thinking about what the future would look like. And it's great that you've had a chance to to experiment and try different things. And we're definitely not out of the woods yet. But I wonder kind of now shift the conversation as we kind of consider how a post covered 19 well, could be more inclusive. And I want to introduce Aamar Ameezy and invite him to provide us with an artist's perspective. So, Aamar, you're a choreographer, you're a filmmaker as well. And I want to hear. We'd love to hear from you about how your work or how your ability to do work has been affected by Covid 19.

Ammar Ameezy: [00:13:21] So I like to call it something like two people must have to be filmmaker to be a filmmaker in progress because I feel like I've not reached that level yet. But one day. Yeah. So besides doing filmmaking I'm also teaching dance outside. Conducting workshop. So doing. When the Covid 19 actually hits Singapore affected me a lot in terms of financially and also like the fashion to teach the passion to share about my, about my affectivity, my passion. And it's really painful to say that, you know, like right now suddenly it hit me that I had to stop. And now I realized that over the past few weeks, I seen numerous numbers of theatres even artists coming online, getting into support and even provide their work on YouTube. And it's very amazing to see that. How it effects me is that. You come to think that right now. It seems to me is that art is one of the best solution to help to engage people like what filmmakers are doing. Like what theatre people are doing? And is is they heartwarming to see, you know, how everyone is coming together just to give a good show whether they are doing podcast. Whether they are doing a show online. And because I also like to mention that because I'm Deaf, I rely heavily a lot on captions, subtitles and all this that are coming up with caption such as Wild Rice, Pangdemonium. And even from other countries said it's London there. They actually provide caption. And it's really so easy to watch. And like Prashant said, reaching out to people who are doing really access the theater. I know actually beginning to watch theatre. And so to be honest, as much as I don't like to watch them online because I prefer to have the real feeling of being on theatre itself and just watching the emotion come through, it's also a good way that people are understanding that. Okay, like, you know, it doesn't have to be just like you can be just be at home and watch. And what I do is get up on performance and go, we are watching a movie or Netflix at home. Yeah. And I would like to mention about a challenges that I face in my career is that I had a lot of barriers going on to me, for example. Sometimes I have people are not very confident in my work because they think that Deaf people cannot associate with music because we can't hear. Or we like. Yeah. Not music doesn't involve deafness. Yeah. Because they assume that deafness is just basically you can't hear anything. So I would declare it right now actually in my hearing, my hearing level is severe. And maybe in the I would say ten years down the road. Probably I will hear nothing. So I'm not too worries about that. And I appreciate what god give me. Yeah. So because of all these barriers people tend to have the misconception that, OK, I didn't think being able to do this work because of your disability and a lot of people whenever I'm performing would be really shocked. When they got, you know, that, oh, you are a dancer. But then you cannot hear, how? You know. And it turns out not to be like I look like some kind of a circus show, you know, like a freak that I let the people know this guy's Deaf and he can dance. Look at him. Look at that. You know, this is something amazing. So this happens then. People are looking at the ability for us, your talent.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:17:45] And now's a busy time for dancers. Right? Pictures online. You're seeing so many people doing dance challenges and things like that. Some I'm wondering how if you're if you're actually busier now doing dance work than you were before.

Ammar Ameezy: [00:17:57] Personally, for me, learning dance life online has never worked for me because partly it's the music let and I can't really hear from a song from the speakers. So it's really difficult to try to keep my dance. I mean, my choreography allow me the music. And so it's not that low as compared to having a speaker and video and everything. Yeah. So I just you know, you stay in accessible. But it's it's amazing. I was some people are doing it. And how do able to cope and stuff when you're doing life. I'm not too sure. I met the media, you know, so. Yeah. But I tried a couple dance class before. Somehow it was 50 percent on me.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:18:50] So I want to bring into the conversation. Grace Lee Khoo from Access Path Productions, welcome. So a couple of things have been spoken about now. The. The I guess the now the grand the new supply of arts experiences that are available online. Aamar was talking about how many of these now are available with captions or subtitles as well that perhaps were not available before. And as a person, as an art practitioner who's also been advocating for more accessible arts in locally. What was your reaction to see all of these new options? I'm curious.

Grace Lee Khoo: [00:19:31] I feel like the pen. I mean, it's kind of like a portal into the future of what can be achieved if we realize how creative we can be and how there is an attitudinal shift to what being creative in overcoming obstacles. And in this case, with the influx of online content being more democratic, you know, our access to the arts, everybody benefits. It's not just different disabled. Community, and this is where I think the conversation needs to continue to deepen, that, you know, access is for everyone, absolutely everyone. When I do disability awareness workshops across the spectrum of mainstream schools to special needs context to cooperation's, you know, I always ask this question, how many of you watch Netflix with the captions on it, you know? And some people go like, oh, I'm English is not my first language. It helps me when I watch it with captions on or someone goes, oh, I'm getting a bit older, my hearing's going, you know, or someone would be like, I have ADHD. So the captions actually help me focus on the plot. So, you know, access truly, truly for organizations, it is good business. You're widening your clientele for consumers across the spectrum of different needs. You know, so I think it's this shift in the paradigm that we we we come back to the spirit of excess pop, where we never look at disability, at something that needs to be fixed. It's about tell me what you need so that you can do the best work that you can. Tell me what what are the obstacles in your way? Is it from impairments, you know, to a lack of support to sometimes just opportunity and education? So we we look at all these barriers and we realize that most of the time it's either environmental infrastructure or it's mostly attitudinal. So my my hope is that, you know, we will emerge from this pandemic with a different mindset that is actually, you know, not that hard. I mean, of course, it's challenging to start, you know, being more inclusive, going online, all the logistical and technical adjustments and adaptations that we have to make after me. Now, the majority, we can make that for the minority groups as well. So that everybody gets to be part of the conversation and part of, you know, the participate of experience.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:22:09] So it's not just about consumption as well, right. Grace? I mean, there's also an element about how different this different mindset also may open opportunities for artists with disabilities as well, because there's new ways for artists to collaborate. Perhaps they're not new, but I guess people are opening up to different ways of working together in a time when we are socially distancing and for people who are faced with some challenges in terms of mobility, but have something to contribute and are makers at home or wherever, wherever they may be located. This then opens up new doors. I mean, what what's your take on that? And have you seen any of the examples of that in over the last three?

Grace Lee Khoo: [00:22:52] I think that so at Access Path, we work with six associate artists and they spend like Aamar. He's a dancer. He's an aspiring filmmaker because he's so modest. And we have we are music producers, sound designers to visual art. And, of course, theater practitioners. And the thing is, because we've always worked this way. You know, we are almost I would say that, you know, when you talk to disabled artists, we are experts of destruction. They're always, you know, barriers when it comes to mobility, when it comes to segregation of opportunities and experiences. So what the pandemic is a disruption to for sure. But then again, I feel like a lot of the people that I work with, whether it's in Singapore or across the world, you know, we've been using this technology for a long time so that we could overcome these distances. So it's almost like we are, in a way, mentally prepared to take on this challenge. And, of course, I mean, that highlights some very real the reality of the situation as well, when physically there are some barriers that we cannot overcome. So what do we can we pivot and go in another direction instead? Yeah. So, for example, when the company did and suddenly I disappear, it's the first disability led intercultural theater performance in 2018. We opened that and the National Museum of Singapore and then we took the UK opening at the Southbank. Now, when we did that, we were very sure that we were going to devote a huge part of our budget to live streaming it. And this was done in 2018 way pre pandemic because we were going to life into the region, into Philippines, into Hong Kong, Taiwan, into places where people don't have access to the theatre or can't perhaps leave the homes that are hosting. So we did that with the intention of bridging that gap. And while the show has been online ever since, you know, on the Internet forever. Twenty eighteen, so now is a good time for us to then bring that out in go like. Hey, you know, this piece of work has always been there fully captioned, you know, with with audio description as well. And it reflects the voices of the Deaf and disabled community in Singapore and in the U.K. It's a dialogue about difference. And the spirit of love. How do you deal with destruction? Mm hmm. Yeah. So when people say so, in a way, I feel like we have always been preparing and we have always continue adapting. And yeah, we're going to keep got, um, keep trying to take this opportunity and widen that conversation really and reach even more people and tell them what is it that we're doing and share and just shall practices.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:25:44] Thank you. Thank you. Great.

Petrina Kow: [00:25:45] Thank you so much, Grace. We we were mentioning earlier about, you know, some of the theatre companies offering some of their shows online. And I think Wild Rice has actually really I mean, has started to work with you to offer already some of the previous shows with closed captioning and, you know, doing different types of shows to include the various different audiences. So actually, we have the artistic director of Wild Rice here with her. So perhaps you could just very quickly tell us, you know, when you guys decided, okay, it's time. All right. All the theaters are closed. We're going to offer Emily online. Like, what were you guys feeling and thinking? And were you expecting the kind of responses you did?

Ivan Heng: [00:26:35] And I think when things started getting really dark and the circuit breaker kicked in and they were kind of, you know, there was this whole sense that, you know, we had to kind of stay home to stay safe. We did something which we've never done before, which has put our shores on line. You know, we've never done it because it's just doesn't reflect the actual show. But it's been so surprising because, you know, Emily has had a hundred and fifty thousand views globally and supervision now who also which also features a disabled person, has, you know, has a captive audience and it's a captive audience because we're all sitting at home right now of more than 50000 people. But one of the first things we did was caption because my husband, Tony, is hearing impaired and we watch Netflix with captions. And that also has been a you know, that has also been a kind of impulse for a while. Right. Because, you know, I lived with a hearing impaired person and that has to understand that. And I mean that, you know, that's how our marriage has lasted because he doesn't hear how I say it. But I think I think, you know, that is a difficult thing. I must say. All kudos to my to our amazing team that it is taken like something like 40 to 50 hours to caption, you know, a show which lasts one hour. And it's difficult, you know, but it's because you have to you never realize captions unless they are badly done and in theater. Right. And then we take it for granted. But in theater, it's an emotional experience. And so, you know, you're sitting there not just proofreading, but just making sure that the captions are accurate first. But also it timed, you know. And to to emotion, you know, and moments. And, you know, with with punchlines. You do want to give the way the punchline before, you know, the actor says it's a Deaf so everyone can enjoy the joke together, you know. So that kind of care. But it's been so amazing. And I think we not just published it. I think the team reached out to the the sad Deaf Deaf association to all the folks that we have been working with our interpreters to say this is happening. And it's been a wonderful response. We're very happy about it.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:12] Thank you so much, Ivan. And I supposed you know, and you touched on this whole thing about, you know, the technical aspect and and the number of hours it takes to do something. I think we have a we have an artist here that who who's also been kind of dealing with it in a very real ways. So it gives me great pleasure to invite our I think she is no stranger to Singaporeans. Singer, jazz singer and actress and host Miss Joanna Dong. So now you are known for, you know, packing crowds of the thousands in big stadiums or even an intimate jazz bars and venues. But that's your bread and butter being in a room with people, with music. So now that, you know, everything's closed. How have you been dealing with it and what have you been, you know, up to. 

Joanna Dong: [00:30:05] The Covid 19 situation affecting my work a lot earlier than maybe it did for most other people? Because I think as early as February when the pandemic hit, many clients were already saying, oh, you know, all our events are kind of big events. They're more than 500 people attending. So we'll probably have to cancel or postpone. So I had a bit more time and, you know, a bit more lead time than many other people in other industries to kind of think about what I was going to do with myself. And so the decision to go online and start streaming my own life performances happened kind of early and I had a little bit more time to prepare. And so I started doing my own stream from my living room, called Jie Jie Time time, which means sister time, you know, kind of like on a weekly basis. One week before the circuit breaker officially took place in Singapore. And it's been a pretty steep learning curve. I've had to, you know, learn various applications, learn how to, you know, do things like set up my audio route it through. Dawe means digital audio workstation. I never knew what that meant. A few weeks ago, you know. And so it's been it's been gratifying because like Prashant and also like Aamar alluded to, you are reaching a wider audience. So maybe before my typical audience size would be about 500 to 2000 people. But now my streams can be viewed by as many as 20 over a thousand. Thirty thousand views on Facebook life, for example. That's an exponential increase in viewership. And also, like they have said, you know, people who previously might not have, you know, either might not have access because they either couldn't afford the tickets or they couldn't physically be present at those shows or they're just not committed enough fans to to to make that distance. You know, going online to watch your livestream is a very low commitment way off, you know, starting to follow a new artist and check out their work. So that's been really great. And I've been having really interesting communications with them. So, you know, before before that, you know, people, the audiences, our faces in the crowd and I'm sure Ivan will know this till you look out into like a sea of darkness and you know that there you can feel them. They breathe with you, but you don't actually know what they're thinking. Whereas on a platform like Facebook, like, for example, you literally can read their very thoughts in the comments section. So you get a much more in-depth idea of not only what they're thinking, but also who they are, because their profiles, their names are visible for you to see. You can tell if they have been back for more than one livestream, you know, they start becoming familiar to you all. That is really nice for engagement. But the downside of it, I think this, again, comes from the very reason why you want to to to perform. And it's the it's not just the number of people your reach, but the quality and the depth of that interaction. And so out of, let's say, 20 to 30 thousand views, if you look at the data and that's the other good thing about, you know, doing it on a platform is that the data and the statistics are very easy to see, but they can also be very hard to interpret. So out of 20000 or 30000 views, the average view time is probably only 45 seconds per. You know, one of those numbers. And then that to me is like, well, that's not even one whole song, you know? And I don't know what to make of that. Like, people are just coming in listening to me sing like, ah, and then they're out. That's so mean. Not not the kind of quality of engagement I would like because I, I do deliver, you know, with a narrative in mind. I take, you know, the effort to to think about the subtext of the lyrics I'm singing. But if you're all you're hearing is. Forty five seconds. I don't know if you're actually getting what I want you to get out of that experience. And so there's there's all of these things and. But you know that all that said, I'm very thankful to to still have this engagement and as a result of me going online quite early. I've also then further been approached by paying clients to do streams on their behalf. And so that has generated income for me. But at the same time, it's thrown me into like a mayhem of tech frustration because every single different streaming platform has different tech requirements. You know, different clients have different requests, which also mean more tech burden on me. And I'm not a tech person. That was why I became an artist in the first place so that I could have a professional crew work for me. But now I have to do everything myself. Yesterday I just had this melt down at. Was throwing a childish tantrum because I was like, what do you mean, why I can't make her anybody help me? They were they were on the phone. They were online. But I had to end up doing everything myself. But, you know, that's that's the metaphor for life. No one can help you if you gotta just do it. So you have been getting a lot of elbow grease.

Petrina Kow: [00:35:17] Oh, honey, I feel you suffer so much. That's like me and an Excel sheet. It's like I can't even do that. But no. Absolutely. And I is almost as if you feel like you don't want the technical bit. You don't want yourself to be too good at the technical bit because.

Joanna Dong: [00:35:34] No, I don't. I don't want people to think that this is the new expectation going forward. And I do make a, you know, a purpose, purposeful effort to make sure that my online streams are a little like less polished than my life shows like a RE. I purposely do not rehearse them so that they come across as spontaneous and organic. But they're not polished. And that's the point, because I still hold the hope that someday we're going back to life performances and back to the standard of performance that I would like to give my audiences.

Petrina Kow: [00:36:08] Well, I certainly have that some maybe, um. I am very, very hopeful, but I certainly feel that that I think because of what we're experiencing now on all and we are consuming so much more content online. We are absolutely feeling what it means and what it takes to put on a live show. So whilst we are getting kind of like a little taster platter, right? Yeah. I never watch his control before I watch it online. Yeah, not that interesting. But next time, if it is being offered life, I'm not you know what, I'm I go try that life, you know. And so I'm hoping that's what will happen when we eventually all get together again. But just just to wrap up this discussion, I was wondering if each of you could kind of offer our listeners just one thing, just in light of what we've discussed today, the one thing that you'd like your listeners to know from your perspective, maybe we can start with Prashant.

Prashant Somosundram: [00:37:03] Yeah, sure. I mean, I think something's echoing and that's how we've kind of increased accessibility of our content to audiences of which may not come to the theater example. Say it's great, I think, for assets. I think that's nice. So just share the content that we have now and just generate more awareness while we work on getting more content online. But I think just going back to Joe and that's thinking about this culture convenience, I think that's something that we need to look at in terms of people just engaging for a very short time. I think we really need to, as an audience, also have a meaningful engagement. So when you when you watch a movie or watch this play, try and dedicate time and you know, you know, I think it's only fair to the artists who are putting that aside and bringing that content to you.

Petrina Kow: [00:37:54] And how about you, Grace? What would you like listeners to know about one thing moving forward?

Grace Lee Khoo: [00:38:00] That necessity is the mother of invention, of innovation. And, you know, let's take that spirit of problem-solving of creativity and extend it to absolutely anyone and everyone. I mean, I think this pandemic has shown that we are not. No man is an island. We do need each other. Isolation and segregation is is a terrible, you know, state to be in. And unfortunately, that does happen to a lot of the members of the Deaf and disabled community and those with creative artistic talent being, you know, shunned or falling through the cracks. And, you know, hopefully we come out of this with this collective sense of care and duty and responsibility to really build access to all the individuals around us. And I know what is it that we do need to be able to do the best that they can do.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:38:54] Love to hear you. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Aamar, what's your main takeaway and what would you like people to our listeners to to think about after this conversation?

Ammar Ameezy: [00:39:03] I think that this whole new twist in the day don't relate to have everyone who came off light. We like that, you know, accessibility and be inclusive. It's really not that it's really not that tough to do. It is challenging. Yes, it is. But, you know, we can always overcome. Yes. And so I'm very well aware that this company, even with this started over Ivan, has no agenda, now that. Putting in caption is really a very daunting thing to do. Yes, I agree to it. But it's about time that, you know, you met this in its ability to make it like a normal thing. And that's what I think me and get in assess is trying to do. And so do you get to highlight your own. I've been about. You didn't know what? In fact, I think it would be Deaf because like that Deaf. I mean, usually hearing impaired is a negative word. And it's more of a medical term. Yeah. Deaf. What to use.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:40:11] Thank you, Ammar. And over to you, Ivan. Thank you, Ammar.

Ivan Heng: [00:40:16] Thank you, Ammar. I'm learning. I'm learning every day. And you know, my husband's Deaf. You. I think that I just want to say that artists are putting on a very brave front to all of this. You know, artists actually have no kind of because our entire, you know, kind of source of living is actually, you know, an audience. This has suddenly been taken away from us. And that isn't in many ways a possibility of making a living. So if you know, you can you know, if you watch a livestream, just give five dollars, two dollars, ten dollars, fifty dollars. And you can give more give more, because it will mean it will help these artists to continue to do the good work that they do. I think you can feel it on every single livestream that artists are giving with your heart and they're thinking about how to to to, you know, give you some joy and alleviate the anxiety and the, you know, boredom of these endless days so that, you know, in the hope that, you know, when we finally can meet together face to face, we can really kind of, you know, share in the experience of being human. So, you know, thank you very much, everyone.

Petrina Kow: [00:41:37] Thank you. How about you, Jo? Joanna, you mind telling us what what would you like us to know, like your listeners and our listeners?

Joanna Dong: [00:41:46] Well, I echo Grace's sentiment that no man is an island and also Ivan, Ammar's and Prashant. I mean, I think we all know noticed now more than before when we have to be physically isolated, that we cannot survive alone. We need other people. We not literally I think we often see this in theater. It takes a village. And I think right now the entire world is our village. And so, yeah, that's all I. I just can't wait to, you know, return to the embrace of all my friends and my colleagues. I want them to know that I cherish them now more than ever before. I will never take them ever for granted again. You know, because I could not do this without them. Yeah.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:42:32] Thank you. Yes. A warm embrace is something that I think we're all looking forward to right now. And we'd like to thank all of our guests, Ivan, Prashant, Ammar, Grace and Jonnna to our listeners. I hope you've enjoyed this new format. We'll definitely be continuing and improving in the weeks to come. In the meantime, please remember to like this podcast and submit a review. Feedback will definitely help us reach more people. You can subscribe to inclusively on Apple podcast and Spotify.

Petrina Kow: [00:43:00] Yet I also encourage you to like and follow the pages of, you know, Wild Rice. If you have in The Projector, Access Path Productions that, of course, Joanna Dong's Facebook and all her social media is. But I'd like to also, you know, end of today's show with a very special offering from Jo. So we'd like you to play or at least tell us about the song that you're going to offer to us, perhaps at this time. So what is this song about? And, yeah, why did you choose this for now?

Joanna Dong: [00:43:34] This is an original lyric that I wrote many years ago. You know, the title is, too. And the refrain goes, it takes two. It takes me and you. But I mean, it takes two is really just, you know, a placeholder for it takes many, many people. It takes everybody. It takes collaboration. And so I think that's the spirit I'd like to leave, you know, all of you with. And I hope that we can all meet in person really soon after this blows over.

Petrina Kow: [00:43:59] Thank you so much, Joanna. And thank you for this beautiful song. And thank you to all our guests. And thanks to you for listening. My name is Petrina Kow and I'm here. Thank you so much.

The rise of Covid 19 in Asia now dominates media and water cooler conversations. Inclusvely hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia share how they've been affected by Covid 19. Links to online resources for people living and working in Asia can be found at: http://be-inclusive.com/inclusively. The Inclusively podcast will return to regular programming on 12 March.

****TRANSCRIPT****
Laurindo Garcia 0:00
Welcome to Inclusively. My name is Laurindo Garcia

Petrina Kow 0:03
And I'm Petrina Kow. And we're coming to you from two different locations today. Very exciting

Laurindo Garcia 0:11
That's right this is the first time we're we are doing a transcontinental, trans-Pacific link up/recording this time. Yeah.

Petrina Kow 0:18
And you're you're sitting there with your you know, I'm guessing Uniqlo heat tech right with the Rockefeller Centre building in the in the background. And I'm here in my you know, clothes closet.

Laurindo Garcia 0:32
Well spotted, well spotted. Yes, yes, I am in the Big Apple. I am in New York City here for a work trip and speaking to you in the evening, and it's morning time Singapore, right.

Petrina Kow 0:44
Yeah. And we thought we'd check in with all of you. Thank you for all your comments and support for the podcast so far. We're working to bring you more stories. But today we thought we would check in a little bit on the situation with Covid 19 and just perhaps offer some support for all of you listening.

Laurindo Garcia 1:07
Exactly. I mean, if there's one thing we were a bit concerned about is if we would be continuing to talk about inclusive business practices. And were you risk being tone deaf to what's happening in the world. So we thought it would be wise for us to pause and take a moment to to share our own experiences, but also provide some encouragement to to our listeners as well. I actually left Singapore just as things were starting to heat up and they were and I guess how I've been affected by Covid 19 was, I was very concerned that he would have the quarantine measures internationally would risk me not being able to proceed with a big project that I've been working on preparations for the last six to nine months. Thankfully, that that hasn't happened yet. But of course, it brought up lots of question marks about how we would be able to do things if I wasn't able to travel. Travelling at this time is actually very surreal. Lots of people are hypersensitive about what's going on. When people cough the airport or on the plane, everybody's looking at you now. It's very, very strange.

Petrina Kow 2:14
Not a good time to sniff. Yeah, and I think, you know, I think on the ground, just, you know, I don't think anybody here has not had an experience of being affected by it somehow, I mean, from very, very small things to, you know, how you go to school even, right? I mean, everybody's going to be temperature checked every day and, you know, really increased vigilance with the hand washing and all the rest, which is great. I think we should all be adopting that anyway, you know, but, you know, down to more severe things like the, the charity that I'm on the board for Playeum; we're, we're down to almost zero visitors, you know. And businesses are really been affected and I guess, you know, for some of those businesses where it's a good time place - when it's crowded, they would really see and feel the effects the most. So restaurants, things like that. So, yeah, I mean, we do hope that things will clear. But I suppose that's what we're here to offer today with some of the tips or guidance or places that you can get help from, from the government and from other sort of business resources or people who are willing to still help in these times. So that lots of lovely stories going round of you know, chicken rice stalls, right, providing free meals to healthcare workers and things like that. So that's really, really nice.

Laurindo Garcia 3:36
We will definitely be posting some resources on the Inclusively website attached to this episode. And it will be a mixture of things like for example, government guide guidelines from the government, if you are a Singaporean company, that highlights procedures and precautions that you can put into place, but also in the in those links will also be explanation about the latest announcements from the budget that are designed to really help alleviate some of the financial stress that the companies are facing at the moment. So those types of links as well as other links from other independent sources and stories as well, just like you said there about how people are really use this as as an opportunity to bring people together when when times are tough.

Petrina Kow 4:27
Yeah. So we hope that it isn't too bad for you and that you can, I suppose, you know, as they say, keep calm, right? Wash your hands for 20 seconds, at least

Laurindo Garcia 4:36
Happy Birthday twice, right. And for now, we'll be just taking a hiatus for a couple of weeks while we see how the situation unfolds in Singapore. But all things being equal. We should be back on the air with our regular programming in early March. If you've got stories to share about how you've maintained inclusivity practices in the age of Covid 19, then we'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line at be-inclusive.com/inclusively.

Petrina Kow 5:08
Yeah. So thank you so much for your support once again from the both of us. I'm Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia 5:13
and I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow 5:15
Thank you and hope to see you soon.

Laurindo Garcia 5:16
Thanks for listening

Designing services inclusively can bolster your company's competitive edge and help you save marketing dollars. In this episode we meet Innervate Fitness (https://www.innervatefit.com/) - a unique gym that offers CrossFit training to clients who are commonly ignored by the mainstream fitness industry. Join hosts Petrina Kow and Laurindo Garcia as they get physical in this weekly podcast series from Be Inclusive.

****TRANSCRIPT****
Laurindo Garcia 0:02
So it's a typical day in Singapore, hot and humid. I am standing outside of Innervate Fitness. And in a moment I'll be going into speak to its founders and staff. I'm interested to find out about how a gym can be more inclusive to clients with diverse needs. And it's been a while since I've been to a gym. So here we go.

Petrina Kow 0:41
Hello, hello, and welcome to Inclusively, a brand new podcast series on inclusive business practices in Asia. I'm Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia 0:49
And I'm Laurindo Garcia and we're delighted to be your hosts on this journey.

Petrina Kow 0:53
In today's episode, as you've heard, we're gonna get sweaty.

Laurindo Garcia 0:58
Yep we're in a gym. Specifically Innervate Fitness, a gym that offers products and services that are designed inclusively.

Petrina Kow 1:04
Okay, that sounds interesting. But what what does it actually mean?

Laurindo Garcia 1:09
Hang on, hang on, more on that later. But what I want to ask you is this. When was the last time you actually spoke to somebody at the gym?

Petrina Kow 1:16
When was the last time I was actually at a gym? I don't think I've been to the gym, in ages, I basically workout at home.

Laurindo Garcia 1:25
I'm the same I work out by myself in a park. But what's interesting about the folks at Innervate Fitness is that they have created a conducive environment for social interactions between different groups to come together and to flourish.

Petrina Kow 1:38
Okay, so what do you mean like tea dance or like speed dating?

Laurindo Garcia 1:43
Why don't we hear from the Innervate Fitness co founder, Moses James.

Moses James 1:46
it's a gym. So we come for group class, and there's bound to be some points where you're going to talk to someone. But what we found is that when we have our community days or group gatherings or events, that there's a lot of value in the interaction between different groups. And so we engineer ways to kind of promote that, that, that interaction.

Petrina Kow 2:14
So it was a very deliberate attempt for them to have different groups in the community to bump up against each other. But who exactly are the community

Moses James 2:25
We're a social enterprise. We work with youth at risk, persons with disabilities and the elderly. We have unique programmes for each of these groups in our gym.

Laurindo Garcia 2:35
That was Moses James, one of the co-founders at Innervate, and...

Petrina Kow 2:38
Wait. So he was saying, like those elder the seniors, there are people with disabilities. And so it sounds like they're two very different groups in the community that they all have under one roof.

Laurindo Garcia 2:54
That's right.

Petrina Kow 2:54
In a gym.

Laurindo Garcia 2:55
Exactly. I mean, conventionally, most people most business owners would focus on one specific segment in this customer segment and just focus on that. But what's unique, and I'm quite surprised with with this is what's unique with Innervate is serving multiple, and very diverse groups all under one roof. And that, to me is quite exciting.

Petrina Kow 3:20
Well, I'm wondering how they got from the, you know, I don't know, like seniors to like, I mean, would you have enough sort of equipment or or knowledge to serve such different communities with different needs, I would assume?

Laurindo Garcia 3:35
Well, I think you'd be surprised where they actually started.

Lionel Choong 3:38
It was my intention from the get go to do and initiate a youth programme that could help the disadvantaged youth here in Singapore.

Laurindo Garcia 3:46
That sounds great. But how do you transform that passion into something that's in a gym,

Lionel Choong 3:51
it's essentially a fun with fitness functional fitness fundraising event. That we get people down the fitness community down to do workout together. It started out small with like 40 people. Then the last iteration we had 650. Yeah, we really grew over the years. And the time and time again, we raise money for the various charities from Reach Community Services society, to this to the previous year, Singapore Children's Society, upcoming year, Singapore Children's Society again.

Petrina Kow 4:22
So in a way, it really began quite intentionally with that one group youth at risk. And I'm wondering, what is it about that group, I guess that that caught his interest?

Lionel Choong 4:32
There was a moment I was travelling, doing a small mission trip over to I think, wow, I want to say Kuching. Kuching in Malaysia, and I went there and I saw poverty at its lowest and at it's worst really in my opinion at least. And then I came to Singapore. I was really like how was really like broken I was like wah I really need to do something about it. And back then my coach Coach Kevin, he started, he was the guy who first started Operation Broken Wing. And the idea of it, and he said that you don't need to look too far away, they you know there's this, there's these youth who are in need. This poverty. And this youth in need here in Singapore. And true enough, when I went down to see that, and really witness that all together, it really, really moved me. And I think from there we tried to rally together to make a difference altogether. Yeah,

Laurindo Garcia 5:26
That was Lionel Choong, the other co founder from Innervate Fitness. What's interesting is that when they did rally together, they started from humble beginnings, and it has since transformed into something really quite fantastic.

Petrina Kow 5:39
So I guess it became clear after their very concerted efforts to serve this particular community, that when they became quite embedded within that community, they began to open their eyes to further opportunities.

Moses James 5:54
What we realised very quickly was that it's the persons with disabilities who aren't active that everyone's been trying to get on board. And so in a sense, the demand from this group of people is a was a little bit. How do I put this. There were more obstacles to them joining than then we thought. Most of it has to do with either time or money or both. So they'll say that the don't have the money for programme, they can't make time to come down. And upon reflection is actually similar resistance that able bodied people have towards studying like, gym programme.

Petrina Kow 6:39
Well, I can certainly relate to that this whole idea of time and money and I think that really is a common one like we, we talked about that all the time, right? Oh, no time, no money lah or whatever.

Laurindo Garcia 6:52
Think about it when you put your business hat on. You know, what they're dealing with is a classic business problem where they have to learn how to acquire new customers. And I can see what they, the opportunity that they've got, because they're working there. They're trying to serve a market there where there are fewer players. But you know, they're not going to get customers serve up to them on a silver platter. So they have, they're gonna have to work that out. And that's tough for any business, whether you're social enterprise or not, you gotta just keep on at it. Day in and out and day in and

Petrina Kow 7:25
Yeah, day in and day out, or day out and day in.

And, but, you know, I mean, the thing is, I've what, what really struck me about how they were going about it was really, it was a sense of, it's like this, this really big hearted mission, you know, to really be there for a community. And I think by by being so engaged in that community and the connections that they had, that it kind of opened doors to other communities and you know, immediately those, those those creative ideas and things sparked out that maybe it wasn't a, you know, a business plan that the document that came out that said, 'Okay, we're going to serve all these different groups of people.' And that's not how they began. But I think because of who they were and how deeply entrenched that they were in the community that that, this almost. I wouldn't say it was just a happy surprise was I bet there was a whole heap of hard work involved. But they were really able to serve the community and serve it well.

Laurindo Garcia 8:28
But hang on. I mean, hard work is a given for any entrepreneur. So what's really driving them to keep on persisting?

Lionel Choong 8:35
There are these moments where we do have to weight up and we realise that pursuing social causes comes at the expense of maybe spending time running an event, spending time resting for that matter, spending time doing any other thing. I mean, push put social enterprise aside, social entrepreneurship aside, as an entrepreneur, you the baseline for being an entrepreneur, you need to be ridiculously creative. I think you need to be creative. You need to be passionate. You need to want to go beyond your ways and means to find that profit, to find that customers, to make the magic happen.

Petrina Kow 9:12
That was Lionel Choong, one of the co founders of Innervate gym talking about being ridiculously creative. I love that. And next we're going to hear from Moses James on how doing business inclusively, gave them the competitive edge,

Moses James 9:27
Having that social angle and the things that we do for these groups of people, allows us to tap on various partnerships that we could then establish. Like running programmes, at off site locations at a senior activity centre or at the Children's Society itself, you know. These things feed back into the business that way and then we, close the loop, you know, by providing the services to them as well. It helps the beneficiaries a lot and helps us a lot too.

Laurindo Garcia 9:56
So what's it like for the beneficiaries? That's here now from Janessa Yu who started working out at the gym and loved the experience so much that she eventually became one of the gym's first employees.

Janessa Yu 9:56
So before CrossFit, when I did squatting exercises for therapy and the like, after squatting multiple times, my legs would start to feel a bit numb. And I think at that point of time, I didn't really know why. But after I joined CrossFit and being coached by Moses and learning the proper form and technique for squatting properly, I found that the numbness went away. I didn't really have that problem. And my legs felt stronger. So I think that that's one tangible benefit, which I was able to get from joining this programme.

Laurindo Garcia 10:51
And what I found speaking to her was, it wasn't just the physical gains and strength that she had made being at the gym, but it's also the the the confidence building that that whole thing that came with her being part of a gym, being being able to be your true self for work and seeing seeing other people's confidence also being built as well and I think that that's really great.

Janessa Yu 11:14
Across the board I see that people who come through this journey learn to start doing, start slow like myself, but after a period of time, you can see there you know become they become more confident. They become stronger or they're more willing to try something which previously they might say 'oh no I cannot do this.' Or think 'I cannot do this'. See maybe I can try this out and see whether I can do this. So, I think other than the physical aspect itself, the mindset change is very important as well. Because it helps in life beyond the gym as well.

Petrina Kow 12:00
And it's it's really inspiring to hear that I think too, especially if you're listening to this right now and you maybe are struggling with something either physically or mentally or you want to even thinking of trying something new, but you, you've been hesitating for whatever reason. But you know, I know I've been in that space before where you're full of doubt, right? You might be physically unable, maybe at this point to try anything new or different. So I suppose like, what would you say then to people who are, you know, struggling in that space? And and what would you say to them to take that leap of faith?

Lionel Choong 12:35
Always have them come and try? And you know, and you're like, come and try that. Oh, that wasn't so hard. Yeah. See? It's not that difficult after all right? Of course, I told him the story of our youngest kid adaptive athlete. Blind, visually impaired athlete who can do a box job. And I tell them what the story of an elderly who is eighty six year old who but can do a burpee. A lot of people think that there are really intimidated and scared by so many things, but I always encourage them to just try. Because you never know, unless you try. So long as you are daring and have a big heart. Give it a shot.

Petrina Kow 13:12
Now it's the effervescent Lionel Choong, one of the co founders of Innervate Fitness. And this is also our very first episode. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful journey of inclusivity.

Laurindo Garcia 13:24
What I hope everyone has gained from this episode is a you know, concrete case study here in Asia about how a company has designed products and services inclusively, and also learn to be innovative through inclusion as well. And these are all useful case studies to help us on this journey to make the world a more inclusive place.

Petrina Kow 13:45
Thanks for listening. That's it for episode one. Join us next time on episode two where we will feature...

Laurindo Garcia 13:55
We'll be continuing the conversation about inclusive product design. But this time from a different angle. Imagine designing products to be more inclusive on issues around race and sexual orientation and gender identity.

Petrina Kow 14:09
Exciting. Can't wait. And of course, if you like what you heard, please tell your friends about it. And if anything inspired you if you have comments do let us know. Remember to like, like and share, like and share everybody huh, like and share. And thank you so much for listening. My name is Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia 14:28
And I'm Laurindo Garcia. Thank you so much for listening.