Migrant workers carry a disproportionate burden of Covid 19 infections. The conditions of workers in construction and manufacturing industries have grabbing international headlines. But the plight of Asia's foreign domestic workers has largely remained invisible. In this episode Petrina and Laurindo shed light on the systemic migrant labour issues that Covid 19 has helped to illuminate with guests Eni Lestari Andayani Adi - chairperson of the International Migrants Alliance, Ramasamy Madhavan - filmmaker of $alary Days, Bhing Navato - helpdesk volunteer for HOME and Eli Nur Fadilah - winner of Migrant Worker Storytelling Competition 2018.

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TRANSCRIPT

Petrina Kow: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome another episode of Inclusively, in the series, we're asking, how has the pandemic changed people's lives and what lessons have we learned that could make a post pandemic world more inclusive? I'm your host Petrina Kow.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:13] And I'm Laurindo Garcia.

Petrina Kow: [00:00:14] Today, we shine the spotlight on migrant workers. Now, I think in Singapore, this has been one of the biggest issues that have come up for us in the last few months. When Covid hit Singapore and I think, you know, looking at it as a whole now, it I mean, I'm I'm not sure I'm right in saying and I'm glad, but I'm really, in a way, sort of grateful that the situation that we've seen in Singapore has allowed us to really sort of sit up and pay attention to the people who are most vulnerable right here in Singapore.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:00:52] From a personal perspective, this this conversation is coming at a time when, at least globally, there is much more heightened consciousness about who are most vulnerable during the pandemic. We've got protests in the United States, in the UK, in Australia that are really exposing systematic racism that is contributing to two people getting sick and not having what they need to to to be able to survive the pandemic. And at the same time, we're also at least very aware that for a migrant, if you're a migrant in many places, it's very difficult for you to stand up and to make your voice heard because you're oftentimes you are a guest in the in the country. Your situation about your your ability to stay and integrate into side into society is also a challenge as well. And so it makes it very difficult for for migrant workers, for for migrants as a whole to be part of this process and trying to work work out some of the challenges and the problems in these systems. So I'm really excited that we've got a chance to talk through some of these issues with a fantastic panel today who one of our guests is Ali Noor Fadhila. She's a domestic worker in Singapore from Indonesia. She's also a volunteer with an Invisible Hands Singapore and a winner of the migrant storytelling competition here. Welcome to the show, Eli. She's also our artist in residence today, and she'll be offering us a poem later on in the show. So please stay with us. Also joining us is , who is an engineer from India who works here in Singapore's construction industry and Singapore. And Madhavan was also a director of a short film called Salary Days as well, which has gotten a lot of people talking and really gaining a greater understanding of the situation for construction workers here in Singapore. So welcome to you to Madhavan.

Petrina Kow: [00:02:53] And we also joining us on the show we have been Novato, who's a volunteer here who works in one of the crisis hotlines for the Humanitarian Organization for Migrant Economics, also known as Home. And she will also be offering her perspective. And she's also been a foreign domestic worker, here in Singapore for many, many years. Plus, we're also very fortunate to have Eni Lestari Andayani Adi joining us from Hong Kong. Any is the founder of the Association of Indonesian Migrant Workers and the chairperson of the International Migrants Alliance. Welcome, everybody.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:03:28] So Eni let's start with you. Thank you for joining us from Hong Kong today. And they know Sunday's are a very busy day for you, but I'd love to just find out how you are. I mean, tell us how where are you joining us right at this moment?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:03:45] Well, yeah, I'd like to thank both of you for inviting me to join the discussion. Really, in the past months, we have been trying to make our voices visible in the discussion of Covid 19, as you know, that the migrant workers are really being put sidelined. And until that is a big case in Malaysia or maybe in Singapore, then our stories would never been found in the news. So for me, the Covid 19 has been very challenging. Honestly, it changed everything. Our way of life. Every day, you know, like you have to limit your time to go out personally because I'm also a domestic worker here so I can't go too much outside. And that's mean I have to work a lot from the house. I can we can not organised now. We can't not gather together. You know, in Hong Kong at least we have weekly holiday right. So Sunday domestic work would have gathered in the park, under the bridge or every, you know, every public spaces. But now, since the Covid 19 line been it was like a gone. It was disbursed. With the Hong Kong imposing social distancing by 4. Now by 8. That means that even if you have 20 members, you can not get together. So that's really becoming a big challenge for us now. And and in the past three months, there have been other major issues. And yet our issue now is to put a lot of domestic workers about different policies. That has been changed. Like for example immigration, with Covid 19, you know, you don't have to go out to extend your visa. You can renew it in Hong Kong. But we can not do this. The problem is because we can't not even meet them regularly. So now we are changing our style of using social media or Facebook to send our news. So we organise a weekly community fact community on this issue. With me, I'm still okay. My employer is doing good. And he really have a lot of understanding it. Just give me a lot of warning about, you know, being clean and careful, you know, you know, like wearing the mask all the time which is mandatory. But he doesn't impose any unnecessary requirements.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:06:09] It sounded like as a well, number one, it's great that you've got an understanding and supportive employer that enables you to do all this other work. But at the same time, as an organization, you've had to learn very fast how to change the way that you're delivering services as well and doing a lot of this online. And so you were you were saying to me before before we joined today's show that normally on a Sunday you would be out in the park. Right. So so how does that work within the context of social distancing? So you're still able to be out there. But so how does that work?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:06:47] You know, one of the funny part of this. You know I would like to go to the negative consequences first. Since the Covid 19, a lot of employers are getting, they are too afraid to even let the domestic workers to go out. They said that, you know, you might bring virus to my house. So that even though they workers us not to go out, even on Sunday, and you can imagine after six days a week being confined in the house, that's the only day that you can breathe. You know, you've meet with friends. You can go to the church, you can go to the mosque. And this is even denied. So in our survey maybe even found out 50 percent of the domestic workers. We have 400000 domestic workers in Hong Kong. Half of them were actually denied holiday. So some even two months without holiday. So that's one of the consequences. The second is those with holiday. They have a shorter time, shorter hours. You know, they usually go out by 10:00, 11:00. And they have to come back by 5:00. So even our own members we cannot meet them, you know, so. And a lot of them are forced to stay, you know, within the employer premises, like the park nearby employers your house so they don't have to travel that far. And then they don't have to consume so much time. So that means even the half a day off, as organised, said I can meet them. So it's getting so challenging for us to even meeting our own members. So what we do not. Even when you can get together, you have to remember all the time, sit by for sit by 4 and don't get together sometime. You forgot. And then you can not eat, usually the Indonesian, I'm sure in other nationalities, especially in South East and South Asian, we eat my hand, right. We we like to share. And then I would tell everyone don't eat by hand, you know eat by spoon, something like that. So it's kind of education, you know. It's the other side of that, the positive side. It's also an education about hygiene that the people, you know, I mean, not that I'm not clean, but sometimes we don't mind all this hygiene issue. But this is the time that you have to be clean. So now to do organising, the way we do it is we actually group our leaders or our officer said into small group, usually three through four people. And this four people are the one going around different places in Hong Kong, you know, meeting different people, giving away flyers like. Because the problem also the information we have, Covid 19 and other policy are in English and Chinese. So that translated to Urdu to translate it to Thai or Indonesian. Even Filipino, not everyone can really understand what it means. Right. So as organiser, you are being challenged to even translate that into your own language, putting it very simple, direct to the point and print in it. And unfortunately, I can say the additional funding for this kind of program. We are the one raising the money, talking to our different supporter to give us money so we can bring in thousand thousand of this information. So one of the gap that I really find in this Covid 19 is a gap in information. We do not know what is going to happen. Yeah. And a lot of our members, we they learn about Covid 19 through the employer because the employee is watching the media, you know, and they don't understand what, you know, in Chinese or Cantonese. So it's the employee who tell them. Or you don't go out. You only stay by four. They learn it from the employer. You know, it's this is very unfortunate. So we have been very critical to Hong Kong Government for putting us aside. Now we are being blamed whenever we gather more than four. They say that you don't follow the rule. How can you even follow the rule? We don't understand the rule. So that's one of the biggest gap in terms of information. And the second issue is also there is no support in terms of mask, sanitiser, or even cash. We get nothing. So in our survey, we found out 35 percent of the domestic workers in Hong Kong were not given mask and sanitiser. So in the first two months of this Covid 19, you know what happened to us? We keep collecting donations of mask, sanitizer and we go around different park and places in Hong Kong to give away free mask. And this is something that the government has done. You know, it's just like it. Give us a double work. But that's how we try to cope up. I mean, the positive lesson of this Covid is really the lesson of solidarity. A lot of Hong Kong people who really care, they give us a box and box of mask and that they'll ask, please give it to your fellows because they know exactly many of us were not given. And then for us, we have to rely to the most leaders who are given holiday by employer without any condition. And that means out of 50 members that we have, we only rely on to 10 people. Something like that, you know. So our number is very small now. And you have to split them and put them into different places. So is that a lot of adjustment. Honestly, for me, I feel very exhausted. I feel more exhausted during this Covid 90 than before the Covid 19. And I'm sure everyone feels that even, you know, you don't have to be migrant domestic workers or migrant workers to be exhausted, but migrant workers, because we are left behind in any assistance. You have to work double, triple, just to raise the mass, sanitiser. And now when the government is given away cash to the Hong Kong people, including Hong Kong resident. Domestic workers, refugee community are not given at all. So, I mean, we spend more money, during Covid 19. You have to buy mask. You have to buy sanitiser. You have to buy food that will keep you healthy. But none of the cash is given to us. So that's the, you know, the setback of this.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:33] Thank you for sharing the situation in Hong Kong Eni. And I think that there's a lot of echoes with this experience here in Singapore and other cities and places in the region there. Please stay with us and we will be coming back to you in a moment. I do want to then invite Madhavan to join the conversation now. How are you Madhavan?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:12:54] Yes, I'm good.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:12:55] I got to know your work through the film that you made called Salary Days. So for our listeners who may not have seen it. Can you give us a bit of a. Just share a bit about what your film was about.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:13:06] Salary Days about the life of migrant workers in all over the world? I just take the concept from one of my poem about the migrant life. In his first month salary on the day what he do. How he tally the money for different expenses. He need to send money to family. To pay back agent fees. And also for the monthly food. And then mobile top-up. Then for groceries. Balance eight dollars in hand. Then he look for good food in some restaurants. After that, he decided to go for haircut rather than taking the food. Then for haircut seven dollar gone. Then balance one dollar in hand.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:13:54] That's right. So that's. That's really illustrates how very little money that a construction worker or migrant worker here has to live on after money is being sent back home where you're supporting your families back home. So I've got two questions for you. So, number one, what has been the response from form your film? And secondly, your film when it was released in April? And then what have you been observing since the film was released in relation to the pandemic?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:14:28] I received almost ninety nine percent positive feedback. Everyone supporting me. Many. Many bigger people in Singapore appreciate it. Art Science Museum contacted me and they are ready to share my short film in their webpage. It's Raining Coats founder Deepa contacted me. She also appreciated it. Many people appreciated through Facebook and YouTube comments. One or two people questioning me about that the film is not up to the level because of lack of technical items missed out. But they forgot to catch the story.

Petrina Kow: [00:15:23] Yes, they miss the point, isn't it?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:15:26] Yes.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:15:27] There's always critics. Right. But it sounds like it's great. It's great that there's a overwhelming response, a good response,

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:15:33] As a film acting skill is a bit less. The technical part is a bit less. I don't want add music something. Because I want to take the raw footage. With the minimal resources, available resources. We. Me and my friends doing this film. Zakir was there and Say Peng is the main person whoo do this film. The main content is the what he film tells. They forgot to notice this.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:16:05] And since it was released. And as the situation the the you know, the situation for construction workers in Singapore has. Has gotten worse. You know, what were some of the things that you have observed amongst your your co-workers and your friends and how the how when what is the response that you've seen from from local. From the local stakeholders?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:16:30] From the local people, they also mention it's like my story. They commented like it's my story. And I also I send my you. My film link to Dubai friend. And he shared in the Facebook. Some of the Dubai friends, the calculated in KD, maybe the Dubai Dollar. The one guy calculated in how he spent. Kindly he left only 2 KD. The people who work in construction and also domestic worker also appreciated it. They also mention it. It's like. Our. My story. Thank you. Thank you.

Petrina Kow: [00:17:11] I mean, I think that's just. Yeah. I remember watching your film actually was the opening film for another and during the film festival last year, and it was really moving. So thank you very much for that, that film. And I personally thought I didn't need anything else. It didn't need to have fancy lighting or, you know, the point of it was, you know, and and I really felt for the guy when he looked at how much he had left and he decided, no, I think I need a shave and a haircut instead of, you know, having a fancy meal. Thank you so much, Madhavan, for that. I think to now bring on Bhing who she's been, somebody I really had the privilege of getting to know a couple of years ago when I organized the migrant workers storytelling competition. She's been a domestic worker here in Singapore for 25 years, and she's a single mother of three. A grandmother of seven, though. And you look at her, she just has this wonderful youthful beauty. She's also an active help desk volunteer to HOME, which is dedicated to supporting and empowering migrant workers who suffer abuse and exploitation here in Singapore. Welcome to the show Bhing. How are you?

Bhing Navato: [00:18:27] Hello. Yes. Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:31] So.

Bhing Navato: [00:18:31] Yeah I'm doing great.

Petrina Kow: [00:18:33] Wonderful. Maybe you can tell us perhaps first is your own your own personal experience with how, you know, the whole pandemic has affected the way your movements in the house are. Perhaps, you know, whether or not you've been allowed like off days and things like that. Just just your make your own experience for now.

Bhing Navato: [00:18:54] Yeah. You know, before this pandemic. We we move freely. Like my Sunday. Also, busy as always. Doing my volunteer, going to church, meeting up friends and doing my activities. So every every Sundays was like that for 25 years and suddenly Covid 19 happens. We were like, what will happen next? You know, we I'm I was even questioning myself. Like, when will this end? During the Covid 19 we're used to going out. Like full day being out of the house, but now we are stuck at home, you know, our rest day is at home now being with our employers. Which is good because we get to know them really well. We have conversations. But for me, it is a new. It is true that this is a new normal for everyone, even even for domestic workers like me, because we stop meeting friends, we stop going to church, we stop everything that we do. So it is something that really difficult for us because our work is at home. Six days a week. And normally the Sunday, the only time we can go out and do whatever you want to do. To run our errands. But now, even on Sundays, we just stay at home. That's why I always find the odd when when the Minister of Manpower will send messages before, you know, since March 21, I always remember that day because they started saying that domestic workers must stay home on their rest day. But they never even really think that many domestic workers don't have a place to live to take a risk, because not all of us have our own room. And many domestic workers here also like on their rest day, they need to work. Even with even, you know, without employers telling them. But because I think that is our instinct that since we're at home, we need to do something. I agree. I agree to that. I mean, even my friends are doing the same thing, too. Like, most of their have the most of their off days are on half days now. Because they need to do something. We cannot stay on our bed the whole day. It will give us headache.

 

Petrina Kow: [00:21:41] Yeah. It's kind of like if you're there, you're like, oh, I might as well just vacuum the floor or I might as well just fold the clothes. I know the feeling.

Bhing Navato: [00:21:49] So it will be like that. And and then be getting used to the routine, especially on the first month of the circuit breaker was really difficult because that time we are uncertain whether we can go out or not. I mean, we see people, we see locals and some other like not the domestic workers are outside or doing exercise, but because of the notice of the Ministry of Manpower that when our rest day we must be at home, we can do our errands. But after doing your errands, like sending money or buying your your essential things, you need you need to go back home. No need to meet up with friends or any other things. So that time I was uncertain. Like, can I go out for a walk? Can you know, can I just go for for exercise. That's why the time I wrote an article asking, like, are we allowed to exercise like the other people here in Singapore? So that was. Yeah, that was difficult. It changes a lot. It changes a lot because not only for my routine, but I think for many domestic workers here that their work has doubled. And I think there are more stressed, I think not only us, but also our employers are also stress because we're getting used to being. To seeing everyone at home all the time. So it wasn't easy.

Petrina Kow: [00:23:22] Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, we we just so sort of take for granted, you know, in in a in a way, I'm so glad to hear that your employer has been really understanding. But I'm I'm just not sure that this is the same for, I don't know, 80 to 90 percent of the domestic workers in Singapore where the employers are being very kind of strict about no, put it down, go and rest or watch TV or, you know, go out for a walk or something. You know, I think very often they would just sort of either leave you be if you want to do the work, you do it. Hey, I'm getting extra work for free. You know, I'm not paying you extra, you know, that type of thing. And it's a really fine line. So I feel like, um. Do you have any statistics or have you seen an increase rate in the number of calls for help or, you know, more distress calls from the domestic workers here in Singapore through to home?

Bhing Navato: [00:24:18] Yes, the calls have been increased like 20 to 25 percent. It is like a distress call. Like everyone. Most domestic workers will call because they if they ask for. Do we still have an off day? Are we allowed to go out? When can we go out? Are we allowed to go out with friends? Is it true that M0M said that we cannot go out? So I need to clarify with them and notice. That the notice said we have a rest day. It depends on your communicate and how you communicate with your employer. Like if employers say, can you work on your rest day and then they need to pay you, you know, when you work on that day. But but if you initiate to do the work at home, then I think it's fine because you feel like you're doing not doing anything. But there are many employers now that that. Mainly are expat, but mostly are locals. So it's fair to say that. But I receive a lot of calls that employers were saying that MOM said that you cannot go out. On your rest day you need to work because you're not allowed to go out. Then they will. When they asked me, I said that's not the notice. They said, you can go out. You can send money. Do your errands. But you need to come back. I mean, it's for your own safety. So I need to explain to them what this notice about. But then still, because their employer said so. So they will comply with that. Then they will just stay at home. I have one caller who showed me a picture of just one chair because she has no room. She sleeping in the living room. So Sunday morning, everybody's up and she has no place to go like. She asked to go for a walk. But the employer said no you cannot go out. What if you get the virus outside? So those are the things. So I explained to some people like how employers should allow their domestic workers to be outside, even for just a couple of hours, that they will use the time to call their family. They will talk freely. They can show like how how they feel, their emotions. You know, they can do that outside. Or they can call their friends, you know, at least for two hours. Just let them breathe. I mean, it is very important because I think our employers will feel the same thing, too. Right. So I have one call. I was very alerted into that. When she said she wants to commit suicide already because her her employer told her that I will treat you like a robot. So literally like you cannot rest, you're not allowed to talk to anyone. She used to have her phone, like, at night, 10:30 at night. And then the employer will take it back at 6:00 a.m. But the employer can see from the CCTV that she's spent like three hours on the phone at night. But how can she? Because that's the only time she can talk. So they started, you know, confiscating it again and give it to her like on weekends. But if she will make a mistake, they will not give back her phone. But finally, she ran away. Two Sundays ago. But because I was really worried that, you know, when she told me that I just want to die if I cannot go out, I just want to die. Yeah. So it is really. There are so many calls. It's why when when the news few weeks ago said that they only received like two calls during this call, it said, no, it was not like that. I received like ten calls. My other volunteer friends received more calls. And what about other NGOs? So we keep receiving calls. The problem with the, with the ministry, I think, is that there is no one to answer their phone. Because for, for me, for me, if I cannot you know, there's no advice left for me to say to to person. I will say can you just call MOM. I think you will be directed. And then they will tell me they will call me back and said that nobody's answering the call. You can only e-mail, but not all domestic workers know how to send e-mail. So that's the problem. So there is like a 20, 25 percent raise of calls.

Petrina Kow: [00:29:05] That is just, you know, so heartbreaking to hear because, you know, already without the pandemic, when I hear stories of employees in Singapore and the high rates of just the inhumanity and the abuse of these domestic workers suffer and then using the pandemic as an excuse. Right. To exploit them even further is unconscionable. And and it is just I can't I have no words. I'm so sorry.

Bhing Navato: [00:29:35] There are there's there's so many of them. That's why when when I had an interview a few weeks ago, I said we're thanking the Ministry of Manpower for taking care of the male, my migrants, because you know what's happening to them right now. But don't forget the domestic workers, because we are the hidden one. Like, no one will know once we're inside the house, no one will know what's happening to us. And sometimes they can ask for help because their phones are confiscated or during not even allowed to go out. So those are the reasons. I think once Phase Two started. There will be many domestic workers will run away. We're waiting for that.

Petrina Kow: [00:30:19] Oh dear. And I mean, I want to say, you know, good luck. What? Like, I don't know what else to say except, you know, I hope that they find the help that they can get and that we're here to support you guys here. Thank you. Thank you for that Bhing. And and for constantly and so diligently, you know, showing up and being being the voice of the people whom you who who have no voice. So thank you for that Bhing. We'd like to invite also our next foreign domestic worker, Eli. She's from Central Java. She also volunteers at Voice of Invisible Hands here in Singapore, most other places. And she's also one of the winners of the migrant workers storytelling competition two years ago. Eli, are you here with us?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:31:03] Yes. Connection just in and out.

Petrina Kow: [00:31:05] No problem. So I wanted to check in with you as well. If you're doing okay and if you're, you know, you being well looked after. And I think because you are a writer and a poet, that you probably turned some of your experiences here into verse. So tell me what that experience has been like for you.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:31:26] Yeah. For me is the opposite from anybody else. I am grateful that I always met, like, beautiful people. I always blessed in many ways. But during the pandemic, my employer she usually not around. But see decide to stay the border is about to close. So she came here before the circuit breaker. So she had stay for fourteen days stay home notice. And then after that, everyone is staying at home. And see like to eat our restaurant food. But the kids don't like to eat restaurant. So I have to go outside and I go outside, buy more than three times a day. So it's like I worried about myself. Like if I don't wear a mask, I met a lot of, like, strangers. And what will happen to me? Like, I'm I really scared, but I keep telling myself I will be okay. And I should be okay. And I keep. I'm not skipping taking the vitamins. I mean, so I will not worry about it until there is one cases in the nearby apartment. And then then she reduce ask me me to go. But still after I go out to bring her like one packet of noodles and then come back to cook for the kids dinner. And then go out again to buy something else. So yeah, it's the opposite of the others. But it's scary because outside is like scary, right? There is almost no people on the street. But I also feel like those people are working on the construction that time, are still working. Those are like. Maybe hurry to finish up the route work or something else. I was wondering, like, how do their work without wearing a mask? Right. There is no hand sanitiser beside them. Even the water and the glass is just beside the stand and and the dust and everything. I mean, how hard can they keep their faith? Like, how do they're not worried about everything.

Petrina Kow: [00:33:42] Yeah. No, no. Thanks for sharing that. You know, alternate point of view. That whilst a big group of of our domestic workers are being held at home. They might also be another group who are constantly being sent out to run the errands. The employers don't want to do themselves right. As like we'll expose you instead. We don't have to expose ourselves, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks. I mean, it is. And, you know, if you're afraid, you can also sort of say, I don't feel like going out to buy your food today. Can I cook you a meal?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:34:20] She will say. I'm craving for this.

Petrina Kow: [00:34:24] Yeah. There's also Deliveroo. I introduce her to the app.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:34:29] And her most our favourite restaurant is out of the range. So it's like something in Bebod. Something in Lavender. And I was in East Coast. Right.

Petrina Kow: [00:34:40] So no, I mean, I tell you what. Look, whatever it is, you know, we we think about, you know, who we've come to deem as essential workers and front line workers. Right. People who have to keep going out there every day, risking their lives to make sure the rest of us can function. And we just. You know. Like our, our food delivery drivers. You know, our essential worker is in health care, you know, and and the people, you know, serving our food, we we we you know, they're out there every day, you know. So with the faith and with lots of extra cleanliness measures, I think that's how they all do it. But thank you so much, Eli. I look forward to hearing your poem in a while. At this point. We'd like to kind of open the floor up to everybody. And here's where we kind of, you know, threw the question open to whoever would like to sort of weigh in. What do you reckon? Lau. I mean, do you know I've been thinking about this and something you said Eni earlier really struck me, which was. The in times of, you know, crisis like that, like the pandemic. It's like a war on information, isn't it? And and I feel like especially for our most vulnerable. The access to information is something that is I don't know whether it's deliberate or is just a blind spot for a lot of people. So I'm not sure where to take this, but I'm happy just to to hear, you know, your perspectives. You know, some things have come up that have been positive. But I think, you know, this particular in this particular situation, a lot of the issues have been there for very long. It's just that I think for the general populace to sort of kind of go, OK, OK, we we we see you now. You know, so how can we move forward from this and how can we be more inclusive of your voices? And, you know, how can we make working here in Singapore better for everyone? I mean, everyone, any or maybe maybe you can give us a little perspective.

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:36:58] One of the good thing, when I because I've been chairing the International Migrants Alliance is this actually a grassroots alliance of them immigrants, migrant workers and refugee community in the world. So we have like hundred eighty members in thirty five countries. So we've been talking a lot of the Zoom, of the Skype before we. In fact, during those Covid 19 we keeps. A lot. We have a lot of exchanging from Canada, U.S., Europe and so forth. And what I can say. There really commonalities. Commonalities in the sense that what has been experienced by migrant workers, regardless of our sector, whether you are in construction, whether you are in plantation, on whether you are domestic workers, has been existing for years. This is not the first time we are suffering. The issue of low pay, long working hours, awful work, you know, denial of us and other thing has been part off the system. And that's one thing that before Covid 19, many people just take for granted that, you know, this issue is not even visible. You know as well, I should say, domestic workers, migrant workers are happily, you know, with happy faces on Sunday. You think? Everything is fine, you know. And then they take it for granted that, you know, the road is clean, migrant workers can eat, and everything is fine. They do not go beyond the wall. They don't go beyond factories. They don't go beyond that, though, you know, the gadget that this workers are holding, because, you know, when migrant workers is holding this iPhone stuff, you know, everything, suddenly you are you are so well, you know, so you have no problem. So that kind of assumption is really very strong. And I think this is also added because off with, you know, the exclusion, you are using the the language of inclusivity. In them. For decades, the migrant workers in the different part of the world has been excluded from the society in the sense you are excluded within the law. So you are not, many of us are not even under the labor ordinance. You don't have even a rest hours or, you know, working hours. You don't have minimum wage, what you have is a market wage, you know, so you will be price. You have a price tag according to your nationality. So that is kind of sad, you know, because you look like an animal. You know, you whether you are a cow or you are a pig, you know, you have different price. And that's how we we that's how the migrant workers for many decades has been treated. So within the law, we are completely excluded. That example, domestic workers. It's not even within the labor ordinance. Migrant workers in general are not. Until you it's like, semi professional or even professional, you call it expat, then you are within the law. Otherwise, when you are falling under the informal sector, you are not protected by any law. If your government do not fight for any memorandum of agreement with that country, then practically you are under the radar. So this is the the reason why our conditions become very invisible within the context of the regulation. Now within society you can see that we are living in isolation. The domestic workers in employer houses. You don't see them until Sunday. You don't even see them on Sunday if they don't go out. In Taiwan, it's not even mandatory to have holiday. Right. Actually, within Asia, only Hong Kong has a weekly mandatory holiday. But again, if you don't fight for it, you don't pursue it. Government, employers, you don't get even 24 hours. You get on like 10:00 am all the way to 5:00, and that's all. How many hours is that? It's only, eight hours. That is your rest hours. You know, so it's not like the right that has been given is is is there if you don't fight for it there, nothing yet. Yet when you see construction workers, plantation they are hidden. You know in the case of Singapore the are in the dense, cramp and very unhygiene dorms. And who put them there? The companies. Do you think government don't know about that? Of course they know. They legalised their dormitories. But what do they do about that? Nothing. You know, so. So what you see is actually maltreatment, abusive treatment. We call it modern day slavery treatment. Forced labor. Name it. You know, to migrant workers. And yet there is a strong denial in the part of government to even be there for the for us. You know, something like that. Not only the Singapore or Hong Kong government, even our own government. Now, in fact, during Covid 19 what has been found in common. The time when a lot of people being deported, terminated, our own government is not even ready to accept us back home. Some government even tell their people oh stay abroad. I'll send you the food, I'll stay abroad. I'll give you some money. You know, I mean, it's so sad. It's sad. Like, I need to go home. Yeah. I mean,

Laurindo Garcia [00:42:03] You're referring to the Indonesian. You're referring to the Indonesian government there? Is that what you're saying?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:42:07] Yeah. But you can see in other countries also. We find in the case of Bangladesh or even in Latin America, many home government, our own government. I mean, I'm not an Indonesian. I'm I'm talking about the rest of our sending government. Are not even ready to welcome their return migrants. And that is very sad. And one of the things that we notice whenever we were forced to go home for any reasons, there is no social subsidy. The fact that you will be unemployed for at least six months to come, maybe by end of the year, you can only do this the only time you can look for another job abroad. You will be unemployed for six months and yet no subsidy to your family. Why? Because most countries treat migrant workers as no longer poor families. So that's one of the thing. So when you ask about so what to do to move forward for the inclusivity, we'd be one of the biggest lesson for me. I find it during Covid 19 is the realisation and awareness among the people. A lot of the workers, the migrant themself actually now acknowledge if they don't come together and they don't say something about that condition forever, they will suffer under the misery. So now you can see a lot of migrant workers, just the social media. And, you know, they are in the plantation and say, hey, I'm hungry can you send me food, you know? They don't have to wait until they die to do that. Now, the workers inside the camp are also doing that. The refugee is doing that. So you can see there are more voices. People have no choice but to take it publicly. Now, among the community, you know, whether you are in receiving or sending government in Singapore, Hong Kong, the the people actually now start acknowledging. Yeah. This migrants, man. They've been with us forever. They live and grew up with migrants. In fact, their children actually being brought up by the domestic workers throughout, you know, 20 years, maybe 30 years. And they never really understood understand yet until Covid 19, came that this people are really, really suffering. No one is taking care of them. They have to take care of the families. They have to be healthy. They have to be strong. With very low wages. But no one is caring and for them. So a lot of Hong Kong families here or even Hong Kong people are realising that. And I think I believe even in the case of Singapore. How they support? Many of them call us. Okay. I have this cash, use it for your community. I have this mask, use it. Oh. What do you need for us to help you? The church coming to us. The mosque is doing something. So now we don't have to ask. Hey, hey, guys, help us. Now they are coming voluntary us to offer assistance. And that's one of the beauty we see within, you know, this Covid 19. That the local also acknowledge that cannot live without migrants. And the migrant also acknowledges they don't say something about their condition, nothing will change.

Petrina Kow: [00:45:09] Yeah. That. Thank you for that Eni, because you you summed it up so well, you know. And I'm just I'm just in awe of you really. And how you managed to, you know, do all his activism and all this, you know, work on top of the work that you do in Hong Kong. And I tell you what, every time I look at Hong Kong and I look at the the way they are protesting for their rights. Right. I mean that the young people of Hong Kong and they really give me hope. Like I love I love what they're doing. I love that they're, you know, getting out there and. Yeah. So thank you for that. You know, I hope, you know, us and Singapore can take some you know, can look at Hong Kong as an inspiration and and kind of get there some one day. Some day. I have hope. Bhing or Eli or Madhavan do you guys want to weigh in on that? Of something that you've noticed or how we can be more inclusive. Ya Bhing.

Bhing Navato: [00:46:10] Yeah. Yeah. Eni was right. I think for for for Hong Kong, at least. Some people most people they realising importance of the migrant workers presence in their country. But I think for Singapore now, they only realise how important male migrants are. You see how they care of them. They had you know, they have a singing together the other night for them. So those those are the things they saw, the importance. Like who build this country, who build the buildings that will build the houses? These are the male migrants. But I think for now, they're still forgetting the presence of the domestic workers who have been helping the employers. You know, how how can they work if no one is taking care of their children, taking care of their parents? So they need to realise that the you know, in order to lessen the abuse. Like to, just don't tolerate anymore. I have written in one of my articles that if if only we can be like, act as a team during this, especially this situation of Covid, then I think we can survive this situation successfully, like our employers will do to work at home, because most of the most of the people now do stay, work from home. So just just be a team. Like I will take care of your kids. I will cook your food. You do your own work at home. I'll make sure that it will be quiet. If the kids are noisy, I'll be downstairs. You know, those are the things that they need to realise this. Many domestic workers are doing these without employers realising how important to be their presence must be in the house. And I have like, for example, I have these people who called me like, because her employers are busy working during the day and they have a sick parent at home. So the helper must stay with the father inside the father's room overnight because they cannot take care of their father. But still, when she asked for a rest day, the employer said, no, you can take a rest like at this time. Or you can break your you're off day into like two hours every day. So how can how can you do that? But I think I think that's very important to do, get to know who's in the house. Because I think for every domestic workers, that's what we're trained to do when we're at home with our employers, we're trying to create a conversation so that at least everybody will be in a good mood, you know, try to avoid arguments and everything. But even even we do that if our employers will, you know, show stress, everybody's stressed like. I used to think that there's one complaint and then the employer said because I'm stressed, that's why I vented on my domestic worker. But we're stressed too. But we don't vent it out to you or  your child.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:39] Absolutely.

Bhing Navato: [00:49:40] Yeah.

Petrina Kow: [00:49:41] And I think I think parents of all around the world having to deal with home based learning are really understanding this this issue right now in a very, very real way. Thank you so much being for sharing that, Madhavan. Did you share anything?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:49:56] I heard the story around 1995 or something. The worker. The person who working in Singapore as a migrant worker shared their stories with the family. Usually in the villages most people in the neighborhood are gathered with that discussion in the evening with my Dad. One uncle, mentioned that if you earn one day's salary in Singapore, you can get one gram of gold during 1995. But now you cannot get the same one gram of gold.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:35] Did you say one gram of gold?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:50:37] Yes. In 90s, if their one day salary, they can get a one gram of gold. But now also the salary is same. Same 18 dollar, but the one gram of gold is 63, 65.

Petrina Kow: [00:50:51] I understand what you mean. So basically we have not. I mean, with inflation, everything goes up, right. And everybody salaries goes up at the same rate. But you know that the growth of the salaries of our, you know, foreign workers have not grown together with everything else. They've kept it low. And I mean, I think that's really where we're beginning to understand where there are a lot of these exploitations happening by the companies who are hiring you guys and getting you guys here on big, big promises of wonderful things. But I think it's so systemic because it should not be a case where somebody can exploit and earn money from the situation. I think that's. And because in the first place, your rights as workers here are not protected. You're obviously easy targets, you know, for people to exploit you. So once again, I I'm just I mean, I'm learning I've I've come to know about the situation. You know, of human trafficking, because I got to know a woman who who started an organisation here called Emancipasia Sylvia Lee. And she was educating me on the human trafficking situation here in Singapore. And and for me to have kind of linked that to this idea of human trafficking here in Singapore was very shocking to me about, you know, 10 years ago when I when I learned this. And then as the layers are coming, coming off. And I think with everything that is kind of blowing up around the world, people are really sitting up and wanting to know. So for me at least, I feel like this pandemic, at least a silver lining is that people are really. Hang on. Hang on. What? What? What? Tell me about. Tell me more. You know, I want to learn more. So I don't know if. And I'm really hoping that we don't go back to the new the old ways or like I want things to be back to normal again. And then we forget all of this happened. But I really hope that with elections and with, you know, putting our leaders and making our leaders accountable, that we will continue to speak up for the people who cannot be heard. You know, I think that's that's really important for all of us. And it's not just the voices that, oh, you know, I'll just do one article. Thanks. And then that's it. You know, I hope we continue to have the conversation going so that we can continue to make sure that systemically something happens. I mean, what do you think Lau?

Laurindo Garcia: [00:53:31] Yeah, definitely. I think it's. What has happened over the last few months. It's been more of a symptom of a bigger problem for sure. And the solutions are not going to happen overnight either. It's going to be a long road ahead. And I think what would help our audience is perhaps some ideas of what, you know, our listeners should be looking out for. What what they could be trying to have conversations about with, you know, their their their fellow residents, their their employers or just their friends and their family about what a more inclusive world would look like. And so with that, I want to open up the discussion to a segment that we have in every episode where we ask our guests to imagine that they were bestowed with a magical power, a magical wand. Right. And by waving that wand, you could change the way that societies work. And so imagine you were given that magical power to change the migrant labor system after the pandemic. So my question to you, to each of you is what is the one thing that you would do to make migrant work more inclusive with your magic wand? And so I'd like to start off with you Eni, what is that one thing you would do with your magic wand?

Eni Lestari Andayani Adi: [00:54:57] Is recognition to our contribution. And also recognition to our human rights. You don't have to think of us or any other thing. Just think of as a human human means you have to work and earn money and contribute to the society. And we've become very useful to the development of any, you know, country where we stay. So just recognise us as a human, which also including as I workers, as a woman. Second is inclusion. It's very important. We just we don't want to be any thing about the society. We don't want any privilege. We just want an equality within the law and within the treatment. That means inclusion within the law and inclusion in any type of program that given to the people, specially during Covid 19 and even after, should also be given to the migrants. And the last thing is also aspect of our rights. As some foreigner that means that we have right to stay, to work. Of course, right to settle. You know, because if we consider how many years we already live abroad, maybe more than half of our life is really abroad. But yet you cannot be a normal person in this host countries because you have been you know, you have been pushed down. You know, you have been denied your human rights. They just want our labor. They just don't want our human rights. So it's time to respect our our basic rights, see, you know, respect us. If people believe in religion, in humanity, you know, in in justice this is the time for everyone, whether are in the government, whether they are in the in the you know, in the society, whether they are in any type of element of the society, it this time for us to show that in time of crisis like this, we we we we we we learn to show that we are really a human. That means we have to treat everyone like us. You know, if you are, if you are hurt, then we are also hurt. If you are hungry, we are also hungry. If you are exhausted, we are also exhausted. And just imagine that it happen could happen to you. It also could happened to us. If you don't want that kind of treatment, then you better start treating others, you know the way you treat yourself.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:57:26] Thank you. Thank you, Eni. How about you Madhavan?

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:57:29] I have two opinion. One is to increase the salary. The other one is. I don't think everything change. So I decided to get one gun with three bullets. Wanted to shoot the God who created this cruel world. Second bullet, shoot the whole world because I need to punish the. All the person who behaved with inhuman, without humanity. Then the person who behave with humanity and social response, I want to take them rest. To relive from the world. And last then. Last bullet for me to shoot myself.

Laurindo Garcia: [00:58:07] Oh dear. Okay.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:09] This sounds like a movie. Madhavan. This will be your next movie. This should be your next movie. That was that was incredibly graphic.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:58:24] Because everyone running for money. Nothing won't change much. In India also the migrant worker face many problems.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:32] Yeah.

Ramasamy Madhavan: [00:58:33] When compared to Singapore, Singapore is much better. If I had a chance to meet someone who may take some action in Singapore, they must consider domestic worker and sex worker also. They also suffered a lot.

Petrina Kow: [00:58:47] That's right. Thank you for raising that Madhavan. How would you Bhing? What would you do with your magic wand?

Bhing Navato: [00:58:53] Yes, I will make all the migrant workers be part of the labor law. So everybody, all of us will be treated equally. We will have our rest day. We will that we can take leave. Because we cannot take leave. We are not part of the labor law. And, you know, everybody will treat us as decent workers.

Petrina Kow: [00:59:16] Thanks for saying that. And how about you, Eli?

Eli Nur Fadilah: [00:59:19] I am so excited for this segment. I love magic. So if I given the power did change the world, you know, is to erase this stigma and the gap between the blue collar and the white collar workers. And I wish there is no migrant labor in the world. Every country, can taking care of their people and everybody can just happily working side to side with their loved ones, without suffering being away. In this pandemic we suffer emotionally a lot because we worry about how is our family doing? Are they okay? How if anything happened to them and we are busy taking care of others family. Wow we as a domestic worker, taking care of other family and foreign worker, construction worker building of someone else's home when, well, they don't know whatever happened in their own home. I have no words for this.

Petrina Kow: [01:00:17] Thank you for sharing that, Eli. And very soon you'll be sharing with us the poem that you have written, inspired by all that's happened around us. So thank you all so much. A big warm thank you to all our guests, Eli Nur Fadilah, who we'll be hearing from in a moment. Mr. Ramasamy Madhavan the director of Salary Day. Bhing Navato from HOME and Eni Lestari Andayani Adi, the chairperson of International Migrants Alliance. For more information on our guests and their work. Make sure to check out the Inclusively website for details. Follow us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or YouTube, and you'll be notified when new episodes are out. And of course, if you heard this podcast up to here and you like it, do submit a review and tell us how what you like and how we can improve. We always welcome any feedback. That's our show for today. Until next time. I'm Petrina Cow.

Laurindo Garcia: [01:01:07] And I'm Laurindo Garcia. And now we go over to you, Eli, our artist in residence. And we invite you to recite your poem and take us out for the show. Thank you.

Eli Nur Fadilah: [01:01:18] Today I would like to read my poems. Based on my inspiration and my experience during this pandemic. I wrote this first poem when I feel tired and I feel. Miss my family so much about I cannot meet them. And also my friends. I cannot be with them. So. The title is When This Will End. When this will end? I'm sure you do feel sad. Though we all know the world too feel bad. Like those sick patients in hospital beds has nothing but hope of health that will come back. When this will end? I'm sure you do feel the pain, though, we actually can strongly stand like mahogany tree facing the rain, feel the blazing and the power that we will gain. But who can answer when things are unsure? Nobody. Now one. Only when we united together by heart, we believe. All shall pass. When it's time. We'll back. Holding each other hands, seeing along the mahogany tree under the rain, happily waiting for the sun to shine again. When it will end? Soon, as soon as we believe we strong and we can. Keep praying. Keep believing. Tighter your hands onto your faith, because the ray of the God grace waiting. Thank you. So and this is my second poem. I wrote this when I miss my special person. My favourite person, so. I Fear What You Fear is the title. I fear what you fear. Remembering to have spent time together. We share spirit, joy and laughter. With you, my path getting clearer. Although our distance is not near. Honestly, I miss you. But I fear what you fear. That's why I choose to not stay near. I really wish you were here because the night is getting colder. Without you. Oh, how I miss your laughter. Even only through network wire. You know that I fear what do you fear. It's not possible to run the you and get closer. Can I just hug you in my prayer? Thank you.