We share some of the listening, reading and donating we've been doing to support the #blacklivesmatter movement, focussing on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander artists and activists.

Then Kate talks to writer and literary critic Chris Flynn about creativity, criticism and why Liz Gilbert endorsed his new book, Mammoth.

We know you'll understand that this episode has a different quality of audio than you are used to from us. Eventually we'll get back to studio sound, but until then forgive us the odd crackle!

 

Check out show notes for this episode on our website www.thefirsttimepodcast.com or get in touch via Twitter or Instagram @thefirsttimepod.

 

Don't forget you can support us and the making of Season Three via our Patreon page https://www.patreon.com/user/overview?u=14470635! Thanks for joining us!