What's the link between free speech, bordering, and the 'MAGA' project of Donald Trump and his backers? And how does free speech as enshrined in the US constitution, contrast with what's happening on the ground in the USA? Sociologist Heba Gowayed, author of 'Refuge', Carnegie fellow, and voice against the arrest of students protesting genocide in Palestine, joins us. She tells us what role the arrest of pro-Palestinian activists has played in the MAGA project - and how, while whiteness has long been privileged in legislation in the USA, going right back to the 1790 Naturalisation Act, we must remain alert to the extremity of now. Ours is a time, says Heba, in which we are seeing an "explicit and express commitment to mass deportation", and a spectacle of cruelty that marks a departure from before. Plus: Heba describes her current project 'The Cost of Borders' and reflects on the status of academic freedom in the USA. Academic institutions, she suggests, are "targets for authoritarians" precisely because of their potential as sites of free speech. We must defend them.

**Recorded early Oct 2025**