Schooling America

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In Part 2 of their conversation with Jonathan Mueller, Ryan and Alex pick up where they left off—tracing the circuitous path from Torrey Honors College through Boethius, Plato, and the Phaedo that eventually led Jonathan into classical education. 

What's in This Episode:

• How Jonathan went from Biola/Torrey to dancing Greek waiter before finding his way into classical education through the Academy at HCU with John Mark Reynolds
• The encounter with Boethius and Plato at age 19 that harmonized philosophy and theology and set the course for everything since
• What Socrates means in the Phaedo when he says philosophy is the preparation for death — and why it's a deeply hopeful claim, not a morbid one
• Why "we don't teach them what to think, we teach them how to think" is a phrase that hasn't aged well, and what students actually need to believe first
• Misology, intellectual ferocity, and the moment Jonathan ripped up his eighth graders' homework mid-discussion of The Man Who Was Thursday

Chapters:

• 00:00: Introduction
• 15:22: Philosophy as Preparation for Death
• 30:52: Lao Tzu, Plato, and the Return to Christianity
• 34:18: Teaching What to Think vs. How to Think
• 38:08: Intellectual Ferocity and Misology
• 51:43: Marriage and the C.S. Lewis Principle
• 59:56: Great Books for Eighth Graders
• 01:06:18: The Man Who Was Thursday in the Classroom

Resources Mentioned:

• Aristoi Classical Academy
• The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius
• The Man Who Was Thursday by G.K. Chesterton
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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Jonathan Mueller grew up at the intersection of classical homeschooling and community college, encountering Plato in ninth grade and the Tao Te Ching at seventeen—two texts that cracked open the difference between a conception of God and the eternal thing itself.

In part one of this two-part conversation, Jonathan traces a winding path through dialectic and doubt, a year of construction work and wanderlust, and three months teaching English to atheist teenagers in Czech Republic. Along the way, the conversation circles one persistent question: what kind of education can't be taken away from you?

What's in This Episode:

• How Jonathan's homeschool foundation and a ninth-grade encounter with Plato's Euthyphro first opened him to the thrill of dialectic
• What the Tao Te Ching taught a seventeen-year-old about the difference between talking about God and the eternal God himself
• The tension between building faith and testing it—and why classical education treats truth as a tuning fork rather than a fragile inheritance
• Jonathan's year of construction and waiting tables before heading to Czech Republic, where teaching English to atheist teenagers rekindled his desire to share the faith
• How George MacDonald's Phantastes, Plato's Phaedo, and a "concentration camp education" philosophy shape Jonathan's vision for what education should do for the soul

Chapters:

• 00:00: Welcome and Introduction
• 01:10: Jonathan's Background and Classical Formation
• 03:50: The Euthyphro and the Thrill of Dialectic
• 08:44: The Tao Te Ching and Rethinking God
• 20:38: Building Faith vs. Testing Faith
• 37:47: Foundations for Children—Memory, Story, and Song
• 42:33: Working Construction and Heading to Czech Republic
• 47:50: Encountering Atheism in Prague
• 51:37: Phantastes and "Good Is Always Coming"
• 55:17: Discovering Torrey Honors College

Resources Mentioned:

• Torrey Honors Institute at Biola University
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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Betsy Brown McClelland spent over a decade teaching medieval history and humane letters in the Great Hearts network—watching students encounter saints, suffer through Socratic seminars, and walk out of her classroom different people. 

In this episode, she traces her own story: from a rich homeschooled childhood into a season of spiritual and intellectual numbness, through a college awakening, and into a classroom conversion she never anticipated. 

What's in This Episode:

• How Betsy's transition from homeschool to public school left her desensitized—intellectually and spiritually
• The role of college, Dr. Peter Kreeft, and learning that pursuit itself is the point
• How teaching eighth grade medieval history accidentally led to Betsy's own Catholic conversion
• What a generation of students dealing with social media, COVID, and loneliness taught her about the healing power of great books
• Why Socratic discussion, not social-emotional programming, is the activity that actually unifies intellectual and moral formation

                                                                                                                                                  .

Chapters:

• 00:00: Welcome and introduction to Betsy McClellan
• 09:47: Homeschooling, early reading, and the first signs of numbness
• 19:14: What was at the center of your education growing up?
• 25:24: College, Dr. Peter Kreeft, and learning to pursue truth
• 35:15: Writing, poetry, and becoming a liberal arts student
• 44:18: How Betsy became a teacher
• 51:30: Teaching eighth grade and medieval history
• 01:00:42: Students, the supernatural, and a generation in crisis
• 01:12:38: Socratic discussion and the healing power of the classroom
• 01:19:55: The community of teachers and a closing poem

                                                                                                                                                  .

Resources Mentioned:

• City Nave by Betsy K. Brown
• The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
• The Dignity of Dependence by Leah Libresco Sargeant
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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Matt Skinner, longtime head of school at Heritage Classical Academy in Atlanta, Georgia, returns for part two of his conversation with Ryan and Alex. 

This time, Matt unpacks the four-pillar framework: purpose, people, programs, and place, that guided Heritage from a bold vision to one of the most respected classical high schools in the country.

What's in This Episode:

• Why purpose must come before everything else, and how a clear destination statement creates guardrails for every major decision
• How Matt recruited top-tier talent from within his own community, often before he had a defined role for them
• The financial philosophy behind investing in people ahead of revenue, and why a scarcity mindset quietly kills school growth
• What "hoarding talent" actually looks like in practice, and why a three-year investment horizon is essential for developing leaders
• How Heritage approached beauty in its facilities as a direct expression of its mission, and why stewarding what you have matters more than the size of your building

Chapters:

• 00:00: Welcome and Introduction
• 01:43: The Heritage Story and the Four P's Framework
• 02:52: Purpose: Building a Clear and Compelling Vision
• 05:17: People: Hiring for Mission Alignment Over Credentials
• 16:09: Fundraising and the Abundance vs. Scarcity Mindset
• 21:00: How to Identify and Recruit Leaders
• 34:27: The Portrait of a Graduate
• 40:22: Programs: Letting People Build What They Believe
• 49:41: Place: Beauty as a Reflection of Mission
• 57:29: The Strategic Financial Plan: Define, Determine, Deliver

Resources Mentioned:

• The Herzog Foundation
• Jim Collins, Good to Great (the flywheel concept)
• C.S. Lewis, "First and Second Things" in God in the Dock
• Society for Classical Learning
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test (CLT)

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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Matt Skinner spent over two decades leading Christian schools—most notably as the longtime head of school at Heritage Preparatory School in Atlanta, Georgia. 

But he didn't start there. He's a Texas-raised athlete, former CPA, and reluctant educator who found his calling at a school board meeting in 1995—having never once set foot in a school as anything other than a student.

Today he does consulting work, helping schools and leaders think through the kind of formation and culture that actually sticks. 

What's in This Episode:

• How an athlete and CPA became a head of school—by accident
• Why easy schools produce fragile students
• The case against snowplow parenting and what to do instead
• How The Lost Tools of Learning flipped his view of Christian education
• What it actually takes to build a high school from scratch

Chapters:

• 00:00: Intro & Guest Welcome
• 02:32: Growing Up in Texas
• 04:55: Flaming Out at Rice
• 07:45: A Damascus Moment
• 10:05: Baseball, Tracy, and Starting Over
• 14:26: The Board Retreat That Changed Everything
• 28:04: Failure, Grit, and Snowplow Parenting
• 40:12: Stepping Into the Head of School Role
• 49:55: Discovering Classical Education
• 59:27: Building Heritage's High School

Resources:

• The Lost Tools of Learning — Dorothy Sayers
• Society for Classical Learning
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test (CLT)
• Heritage Preparatory School

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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Dr. Kathleen O'Toole is the Associate VP for K-12 Education at Hillsdale College. However, she didn't arrive at classical education through a straight line. She grew up attending a good-but-not-classical school, survived a grueling private prep high school, found her footing at Hillsdale Academy, and finally experienced the full power of a classical curriculum at the University of Dallas. 

Today she leads Hillsdale's K–12 Schools office, helping communities around the country start and sustain classical schools. 

What's in This Episode: 

• The difference between a good school and a classical school 
• Joyful rigor vs. rigor for rigor's sake
• The moment classical education clicked
• What Hillsdale's K–12 office actually does
• Why K–12 matters for teachers; not just students 

Chapters: 

• 00:00 Intro & Guest Welcome 
• 01:30 Growing Up at St. Mark's Episcopal School 
• 07:30 The Power of Joyful Rigor 
• 10:30 School Culture & Traditions That Stick 
• 14:00 Classical Education at Home Before It Had a Name 
• 16:00 Rigor Without Purpose 
• 27:00 Moving to Michigan & Hillsdale Academy 
• 35:00 The Startup School Experience 
• 44:00 University of Dallas & the Core Curriculum 
• 52:00 Finding a Calling: Political Philosophy 
• 55:00 Teachers as Fellow Students 
• 1:01:00 Joyful vs. Joyless Rigor: The Key Difference 
• 1:05:00 Hillsdale's K-12 Office Today 

Resources:

Hillsdale K–12 Schools  

Arcadia Education 

Classical Learning Test 

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education. Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

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