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Can Darwin's theory of evolution deepen our understanding of God rather than simply challenge it?

Evolution has often been portrayed as a threat to Christian faith. Its long history of struggle, predation, suffering, death, and extinction seems to intensify one of theology's most difficult questions: How can such a world be reconciled with belief in a God who is all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing?

In this episode, Richard Randolph speaks with United Methodist deacon and theologian Charissa Jaeger-Sanders about the first chapter of her dissertation, which approaches that question from a strikingly different direction. Rather than treating Darwin only as a challenge to Christianity and other faiths, Charissa explores how evolutionary biology may also become a theological gift.

Their conversation considers nature's deep ambiguity. Competition and suffering are undeniably part of the evolutionary story, but so are cooperation, mutualism, adaptability, care, interdependence, novelty, and wonder. This fuller vision of nature opens the way toward understanding creation not as a finished and static product, but as a dynamic, relational process of ongoing becoming.

·     Evolutionary suffering creates such a profound challenges for Christian traditional ideas of Divine omnipotence, omniscience, and love

·     Why nature cannot be characterized as simply hostile or harmonious

·     Evolution reveals novelty, emergence, increasing complexity, interdependence, and ongoing becoming

·     How Charissa incorporates the Wesleyan Quadrilateral of Scripture, tradition, experience, and reason in her theological analysis and reflection on Darwinian evolution 

·     How Charissa integrates the Wesleyan Quadrilateral into her comparative constructive theology and thealogy

·     Theological reflection should attend to the experience and agency of the more-than-human world

·     Creation's freedom to participate in its own becoming makes possible both suffering and flourishing

Public debates often force an unnecessary choice between accepting evolutionary science and affirming religious faith. Charissa's work refuses that false choice. She takes the suffering disclosed by evolutionary biology seriously, without treating suffering as the whole story of nature or retreating from the difficult theological questions it raises.

The result is a constructive account of creation in which divine love works through empowerment rather than coercion. Evolution does not provide a simple solution to the problem of suffering, but it can enlarge our understanding of God's relationship with a creation that possesses genuine freedom, creativity, and the capacity to become something new. This perspective also creates space for fruitful conversation between Christianity and other religious traditions.

Darwin's gift is a vision of creation as unfinished, interconnected, and alive with possibility. God empowers creation to participate in its own becoming, bringing the risk of suffering and decay, but also the emergence of diversity, complexity, relationship, flourishing, freedom and wonder.

Charissa Jaeger-Sanders brings evolutionary biology into conversation with Christian theology and Hindu Sakta thealogy. Her work uses comparative constructive theology and the Wesleyan Quadrilateral to explore the relationship between the Divine, materiality, creaturely agency, and suffering.

The Science and Spirituality for the Curious podcast seeks to provide resources and opportunities that help individuals and faith communities develop their own informed understanding of how science and spirituality relate to one another. The podcast pursues this mission through different formats. Some episodes feature conversations with specialists in science, spirituality, theology, history, and related fields. Others feature reflections by Richard Randolph, the podcast’s host, on various aspects of science and spirituality.

Links 

·        To make a donation supporting the development of faith-based resources on AI technology, click here:  https://scienceandspirituality.org/support 

·        For the free subscription to Richard Randolph’s Substack block, click here:  https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com/ 

For Further Reading

·        Abram, David. “On Being Human in a More-Than-Human World.” Center for Humans & Nature, July 22, 2012. 

·        Ayala, Francisco J. Darwin’s Gift to Science and Religion. Washington, DC: Joseph Henry Press, 2007.

·        Haught, John F. God After Darwin: A Theology of Evolution. 2nd ed. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 2008. 

·        Jaeger-Sanders, Charissa. “Weaving Webs of Wisdom: How Our Interconnectedness with the Divine, Creation, and One Another Matters.” Journal of Hindu-Christian Studies 38 (2026): Article 3. 

·        Johnson, Elizabeth A. Ask the Beasts: Darwin and the God of Love. London: Bloomsbury, 2014. 

·        Southgate, Christopher. The Groaning of Creation: God, Evolution, and the Problem of Evil. Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press, 2008. 

This episode’s title is a play on the title of the Ayala book.

Chat GPT assisted in the development of these Show Notes.

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

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Richard Randolph speaks with Braden Molhoek, Director of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences (CTNS), about artificial intelligence and other emerging technologies, virtues, and the changing landscape of the science and religion dialogue. 

Braden begins by describing the path that led him to CTNS, including his studies in science and religion and his doctoral work in ethics and social theory at the Graduate Theological Union. He then introduces his research into “virtuous AI” and the important distinction between acquired and infused virtue. 

Braden believes that humans may be able to design technologies to support virtuous behavior, although that does not necessarily mean the technologies themselves possess virtue.  The conversation also considers a less desirable possibility: AI systems can be designed—or trained—to reinforce vice. Braden points particularly to the sycophantic tendencies of large language models, which may flatter users, affirm their assumptions, and encourage them to place unwarranted confidence in AI-generated responses. Such systems may even tempt users to substitute interactions with AI for the complexities of human relationships. 

Richard and Braden broaden the discussion by considering how other technologies can assist moral behavior. GLP-1 medications, for example, may help some people exercise temperance by reducing cravings and impulsive behavior. But, if the effect disappears when the medication is discontinued, has the person acquired the virtue of temperance, or has technology temporarily supported temperate behavior?  

Their conversation then moves toward the future of humanity. If humans are genetically modified to survive in low-gravity environments or live on another planet, would they remain the same species as Earth-bound humans? What ethical problems might arise if modified and unmodified humans coexist? Could unequal access to human enhancement create new forms of power and injustice? 

Braden also describes a recent CTNS project funded by the Dialogue on Science, Ethics, and Religion (DoSER), a program of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).  In that project, CTNS offered several graduate level courses, as well as a public forum, exploring the impact of artificial intelligence on global climate change. 

Braden and Richard also reflect on growth in the creative mutual interaction of science and religion.  For instance, earlier work primarily concentrated on cosmology and evolution.  While cosmology and evolution continue to be important, contemporary scholarship has expanded to address consciousness, genetics, artificial intelligence, environmental responsibility, and emerging technologies. As Director of CTNS, Braden hopes to engage these emerging questions while preserving the Center’s longstanding commitment to a wide range of natural science and theological concerns. 

In this episode 

• Information on the Graduate Theological Union and the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences 
• Braden’s journey into the study of science, theology, and ethics 
• The history and continuing mission of CTNS 
• How the science and religion conversation is changing 
• The difference between acquired and infused virtue 
• Whether an AI system can genuinely possess moral virtue 
• Sycophancy and flattery in large language models 
• GLP-1 medications and technologically assisted temperance as examples of using emerging technologies to promote virtue 
• Genetic modification, space settlement, and the future of the human species 
• The ethical risks of unequal access to human enhancement 
• Environmental responsibility in the Anthropocene 

About Braden Molhoek 

Braden Molhoek is Director of the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. His academic work brings Christian ethics and virtue theory into conversation with artificial intelligence and other emerging technologies, as well as engaging environmental concerns, and theological anthropology. He has also contributed significantly to the CTNS Virtuous AI research project.  

About the Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences (CTNS) 

The Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences is an international center dedicated to promoting the creative mutual interaction if science and religion through research, teaching, and public service.  Located at the Graduate Theological Union, CTNS explores topics ranging from cosmology and evolution to artificial intelligence, genetics, consciousness, environmental ethics, and human flourishing. 

About the Graduate Theological Union (GTU) 

Formed in 1962, the Graduate Theological Union is a consortium of interconnected theological schools, research centers, and affiliates working in collaboration to offer the Masters of Art and Ph.D. graduate degrees.  As a collaborative consortium, GTU’s Mission is to advance “ecumenical, interreligious, and interdisciplinary scholarship to educate scholars and equip leaders who foster flourishing pluralistic communities.” 

Resources  

• Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences: https://www.ctns.org 
• Graduate Theological Union: https://www.gtu.edu 
• Ted Peters, ed., The Promise and Peril of AI and IA:  New Technology Meets Religion, Theology, and Ethics, Adelaide, Australia:  ATF Press Publishing, 2025.  (This volume contains many of the essays contributed to the “Virtuous AI” project of CTNS, funded by the John Templeton Foundation.)   

(Chat GPT assisted in the development of these Show Notes.) 

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Do Christians have to believe that the miracle stories in the Bible literally happened in order to be faithful followers of Jesus? 

In this thought-provoking episode, Richard Randolph explores one of the most challenging questions at the intersection of science and faith. Drawing on biblical scholarship, theology, and his own spiritual journey, Richard argues that Christians can remain deeply committed Christians, while understanding the miracle stories as profound expressions of spiritual truth rather than literal suspensions of the laws of nature. 

Along the way, he examines miracle traditions from several of the world's religions, considers the historical work of Elaine Pagels, reflects on the theology of physicist-priest John Polkinghorne, and explains why he believes the Resurrection belongs in a fundamentally different category than the other miracle stories found in Scripture. 

Whether you agree or disagree with Richard's conclusions, this episode invites listeners to think more deeply about what miracle stories were intended to communicate—and why they continue to matter today. 

In this episode you'll discover: 

• That miracle stories appear in virtually every major religious tradition. 
• Why Richard no longer interprets biblical miracles literally. 
• Why he believes science and authentic Christian faith need not be in conflict. 
• How trust in God shapes his understanding of Divine Action. 
• Elaine Pagels' historical insights into miracle stories in the ancient world. 
• Why the Resurrection is fundamentally different from other biblical miracle stories. 
• Insights into miracle stories from John Polkinghorne and John Dominic Crossan  
• How miracle stories may become even more spiritually powerful when we read metaphorically, rather than literally. 
• A moving reflection from physicist and theologian Robert (Bob) Russell on praying for a healing miracle during his battle with prostate cancer. 
• The Buddhist insight that the greatest miracle is the transformation of human consciousness—and how Christianity expresses a similar vision of transformed life. 

Books and Authors Mentioned 

• Elaine Pagels, Miracles and Wonder: The Historical Mystery of Jesus (2025) 
• John Polkinghorne, "The Credibility of the Miraculous" (Zygon) 
• John Dominic Crossan (quoted in Miracles and Wonder) 

Additional Reflections from Richard Randolph on the Resurrection 

• Podcast Episode 2.3: “Science and Resurrection” 
• Substack Reflection on “Science and Resurrection,” available at https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com  

Connect with Science and Spirituality  

Website:
https://www.scienceandspirituality.org 

Support the Podcast:
https://www.scienceandspirituality.org/support 

Email Richard:
[email protected] 

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

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In this episode of Science and Spirituality for the Curious, I explore an important question: What happens when we integrate our spiritual lives with our physical lives, rather than treating them as separate dimensions of human existence?

My guest is Rev. Dr. Shelly Petz, author of Meet You at Nine, which is available for purchase at Amazon.com. Shelly’s new book chronicles her journey into embodied spirituality. Through years of prayer, ministry, and personal reflection, Shelly has discovered a specific prayer practice that engages not only the mind and spirit, but also the body.

Our conversation begins with Shelly's own spiritual journey. Although she originally expected to pursue a career in medicine like her father and grandfather, a profound experience while hiking led her in a different direction. Ultimately this new direction led into ordained ministry. Along the way, Shelly developed a deeper understanding of prayer—not as a way of informing God about our needs, but as an invitation to align ourselves with God's presence and purposes.

A turning point in Shelly's spiritual life came when she sensed an invitation from God to meet each day at 9:00 a.m. What began as a daily commitment to prayer, gradually evolved into a practice she calls circle prayer. Inspired in part by Mark Batterson's book The Circle Maker and the ancient story of Honi the Circle Maker, Shelly began walking and driving in intentional circles while praying for her family, congregation, community, and others.

As Shelly explains in our conversation, this practice transformed the way she sees the world. Circle prayer helped her slow down, become more attentive to the people and places around her, and recognize opportunities for human connection that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

One of the most intriguing aspects of our discussion is Shelly's conviction that God is always ready to meet us. The barriers that prevent us from experiencing God's presence are not God's barriers, but our own. Through her practice of circle prayer, Shelly has learned to become more attentive to that ever-present invitation from God.

During our conversation, Shelly also shared practical examples of how circle prayer can deepen one's spiritual life, and she demonstrated the practice of circle prayer for listeners of this episode.

Whether you are curious about prayer, interested in spiritual practices, or simply looking for new ways to integrate the physical and spiritual dimensions of life, I think you'll find this conversation both thought-provoking and inspiring.

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

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This episode features a panel discussion and review of the controversial new film, The Story of Everything.  Philosopher of science Stephen Meyer is the screenwriter, and he draws heavily from his book, Return of the God Hypothesis.  The film was directed by Eric Esau.  It has had a limited release in U.S. theaters through Fathom Entertainment.  

Panelists explored these questions: 

1. Were there moments in the film that created a sense of wonder and awe for you? 
2. Does the film raise new questions for you? 
3. What were the film’s strengths and weaknesses? 
4. Would you recommend this film to your friends and acquaintances? 

Important Links: 

• Science and Spirituality website:  www.scienceandspirituality.org 
• Richard Randolph’s Substack reflections, https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com 
• The Story of Everything trailer:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwL3ZKlwEoc  
• Stephen Meyer, Return of the God Hypothesis, HarperOne, 2021 

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

To access Richard’s new Substack reflections, https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com  

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Richard Randolph has a fascinating discussion with John Grim, a historian of religions focusing on Indigenous Traditions. During their conversation, John shares his experiences learning from indigenous peoples, including being adopted by Crow people from Montana and invited to participate in their Sun Dance ceremonials. He reflects on what people from other faiths and spiritualities can learn from Indigenous knowledge and wisdom.
Links:

• To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support
• Richard’s new Substack reflections, https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com
• John Grim is Co-Director of the Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology, for more information go to https://fore.yale.edu/; the Yale Forum current “Living Earth Community” can be found here, https://livingearthcommunity.com/

Suggestions for Further Reading
John Grim, The Shaman: Patterns of Religious Healing Among the Ojibway Indians, University of Oklahoma Press, 1988.
John Grim, editor, Indigenous Traditions and Ecology: The Interbeing of Cosmology and Community, Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard Divinity School Center for the Study of World Religions, 2001.
Robin Kimmerer, Braiding Sweetgrass, Minneapolis, MN: Milkweed, 2013.
N Scott Momaday, House Made of Dawn
Louise Erdrich, Love Medicine
Leslie Harmon Silko, Ceremony
James Welch, Winter in the Blood
Janet Campbell Hale, The Jailing of Cecilia Capture
Susan Power, The Grass Dancer
Eddie Chocolate, Cheyenne Madonna
Gerald Vizenor, Bearheart
Rebecca Roanhorse, Black Sun
Joy Harjo (poet), An American Sunrise
Linda Hogan (poet and novelist), A History of Kindness
Simon Ortiz (poet), From Sand Creek
John G. Neihardt, Black Elk Speaks

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

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In this episode, Richard examines one of the most profound questions in the Christian faith:  Can science explain—or prove—the Resurrection?  Drawing on conversation with physicist-theologian Robert Russell, this episode explores whether scientific cosmology can inform—and deepen—our understanding of resurrection.  

Contents

1. This episode begins by noting that there has always been doubt about the Resurrection, going all the way back to Jesus’ disciples.  The disciple Thomas earned the nickname, “doubting Thomas,” because he initially doubted the Resurrection of Christ, while the Gospel of Matthew records that some disciples worshipped the risen Messiah, while “others doubted,”  Later, in 1 Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul asserts that the Resurrection is central to the Christian faith.
2. Robert Russell believes that the Resurrection must be viewed within the context of God’s work as Creator.  He suggests that God’s work as Creator takes on three different forms.  The third form of God’s creative active occurs at the End-Times, when God renews and heals existing creation, rather than replacing it.  This is the “New Creation” described in the Book of Revelation 21, “Behold, I am making all things new.”  
3. Jesus’ Resurrection on Easter morning is a promissory note, confirming the resurrection as part of God’s plan for the New Creation at the End-Times.
4. The New Creation is both continuous and dis-continuous with reality as we currently experience it.  On the one hand, the New Creation will be dis-continuous with present reality.  For example, the Resurrection currently appears to be in direct conflict with the laws of nature.  However, scientific cosmology allows for the possibility that the laws of nature as we know them are not set in stone.  One possibility in scientific cosmology is that there is not one, single universe.  Rather, there are multiple universes, creating a “multiverse.”  These different universes could have radically different laws of nature.  This suggests that the laws of nature could be transformed in the New Creation, so that Resurrection would no longer violate them.  Instead, resurrection would be a consistent with those different laws of nature.
5. On the other hand, in some ways, the New Creation would be continuous with reality as we know it.  An example of continuity would be that our personal identity continues in the New Creation.  
6. Since Robert Russell situates the New Creation within the overarching creative framework of God, it has been part of God’s creative plan all along.  That is to say, the New Creation is not an afterthought—nor a corrective for some mistake.  It has been part of God’s intention from the beginning.
7. To conclude, while science cannot “explain” the Resurrection, science does not rule out the possibility of resurrection, either.  What science can do is suggest potential frameworks that may make resurrection more intelligible to persons of faith. 

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John Grimm, and his spouse Mary Evelyn Tucker, are co-founders of the Yale Forum on Ecology and Religion.  Previously they also organized a series of conferences at Harvard University, resulting in a multi-volume series on Religions and Ecology.  

Contents: 

1. The conversation begins with John describing the process he and Mary Evelyn used to create the multi-volume collection of essays examining the relationship between Ecology and various religions and spiritualities.  John explains the process of retrieval🡪 re-evaluation 🡪 re-construction that various authors adopted in their examination of how sacred texts could contribute meaningfully to healing the environment.  
2. John provides background on the founding of the Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology.  Then, he discusses the many resources available on the Yale Forum’s websites.  
3. John and Richard also discuss the emergence of “eco-anxiety” and “eco-grief.”  John shares how Yale Divinity School has begun offering its students instruction on providing pastoral care for those suffering from eco-anxiety and eco-grief. 

For further exploration:

The Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology has multiple websites:

• For the Forum homepage, click here:  https://fore.yale.edu/ 
• For a brief listing of various resources on the Forum, click here: https://fore.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Forum_flyer_2024.pdf 
• For the video Journey of the Universe website:  https://www.journeyoftheuniverse.org/ To watch the video, go here:  Journey of the Universe | Videos & Movies on Vimeo. The password is whowouldyoube619. 
• For the new Living Earth Community project, click here:  https://livingearthcommunity.com/ 
• For resources on eco-anxiety and eco-grief, go here:  https://fore.yale.edu/Resources/Eco-anxiety-Resources
  
  To check out Science and Spirituality’s new Substack page, click here:
  https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com.

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In this episode, Richard interviews Dr. Brian Swimme, a mathematical cosmologist and evolutionary philosopher, best known for articulating a “universe story” in collaboration with the late cultural historian and theologian Thomas Berry.  Their work integrates contemporary cosmology with spiritual reflection through a story that explores cosmic evolution—from the Big Bang to the emergence of galaxies, to life and human consciousness—while inviting deeper reflection on its meaning for human identity and planetary responsibility. 

Contents:  

1. Brian and Richard begin their conversation by discussing the relationship between science and spirituality.  Brian goes on to describe what he means when he says that the universe sacrifices for the evolutionary development of the universe, especially for the flourishing of life. 
2. Brian and Richard discuss the notion of a “cosmic Christianity” and Brian provides examples of how God is revealed through the development and processes of the universe.  
3. One of Brian Swimme’s major contributions to how we think about the origin and unfolding of the universe is his description of the “Powers of the Universe”: 
   1. Centration 
   2. Allurement or Attraction 
   3. Emergence 
   4. Homeostasis 
   5. Cataclysm 
   6. Synergy 
   7. Transmutation 
   8. Transformation 
   9. Interrelatedness 
   10. Radiance 
4. Brian and Richard discussed Brian’s understanding of “resonance” and “reverberation.”  They each shared examples of reverberating events in their own lives. 

For further exploration 

• Check out Brian’s website at https://storyoftheuniverse.org 
• Check out Richard’s new Substack blog at www.scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com. Also, look for his reflections on Brian Swimme’s contributions to science and spirituality, in a blog to be posted at the end of this week.  
• To see the Emmy award-winning documentary, Journey of the Universe, written by Mary Evelyn Tucker and Brian Swimme—and narrated by Brian—go to  https://storyoftheuniverse.org/videos  

 Books: 

•  The Universe Story : From the Primordial Flaring Forth to the Ecozoic Era--A Celebration of the Unfolding of the Cosmos, Brian Swimme with Thomas Berry,  HarperOne, 1994. 
• Cosmogenesis, An Unveiling of the Expanding Universe, Brian Thomas Swimme, Counterpoint, 2022. (Brian’s intellectual and spiritual autobiography.) 
• Hidden Heart of the Cosmos (Ecology and Justice Series), Brian Swimme, Orbis Books, 2019. 

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

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To contribute to the SSI year-end challenge match campaign, click here:  https://scienceandspirituality.org/giving-tuesday/ 

 In this episode, Richard interviews Dr. Zeynep Kuleli, a historian of Science and Technology.  They discuss Dr. Kuleli’s research into Sufi spirituality and its implications for the vibrant floriculture in early modern Istanbul.  After their conversation, Richard concluded this episode by sharing that what he has learned from Sufi spiritual insights and commitments can help him deepen his own spirituality and become a better Christian disciple, especially in the face of environmental crisis.  

 Contents:  

1. The interview began with Dr. Kuleli describing her early life in Istanbul and interests, which eventually led her to enter the Ph.D. program in the History of Science and Technology at the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.  Since she has just completed her dissertation, Richard also asked her to describe her doctoral research.   
2.  From there, the conversation moved to Sufism, with Dr. Kuleli providing an introductory description of this special form of spirituality within Islam.    
3.  Richard first met Dr. Kuleli at a conference in February, hosted by the Kripke Center for the Study of Religion and Society at Creighton University in Omaha.  He asked her to describe the paper she presented at the conference, entitled “Sufi Orders and Floriculture in Early Modern Istanbul.”  Dr. Kuleli described the social, cultural, and spiritual significance of this floriculture, with its focus on a small selection of flowers, including tulips, carnations, and roses.  She described how the Sufis came to see these flowers as manifesting the highest attributes of God. From the Sufi perspective, there is not a sharp demarcation between nature, human culture, and the Divine.  
4.  In her Creighton paper, Dr. Kuleli concluded, “"...when compared to their European contemporaries...the Ottoman perception did not rigidly demarcate the realms of nature, culture, and the divine, presenting a more fluid conceptualization of these entities."  She discussed this conclusion with Richard and its implications for how we understand God. 
5.  Finally, Dr. Kuleli describe what she has learned from this research project:  it has taught her that we need to overcome our division and polarization within societies by recognizing that we are One in our existence with the Divine, nature, and one another.  When we attack others, we are actually attacking ourselves.   
6.  Following the interview, Richard picked up on this notion that we are One with nature, God, and one another.  He believes that the Western impulse to demarcate God from Creation lies at the base of our inability to develop an environmental ethic, which celebrates and preserves the environment.  He believes that we would be far more successful at addressing our environmental challenges, if we followed Sufism and other spiritual traditions in emphasizing the Oneness of existence that nature, humans, and God share together.  He cautioned that this does not necessitate taking a pantheistic perspective. 

 For more information about Sufism, see this YouTube tutorial:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc9k9nvIHOU 

To financially support this podcast series, go to www.scienceandspirituality.org/support  

To access Richard’s new Substack reflections, https://scienceandspiritualityblog.substack.com