Pat Brown talks about his path to becoming a physician and scientist, the importance of a bench-to-bedside-back-to-bench approach in drug development, and targeted cancer therapy. Using his work in leukemia as an example, Pat talks about how changes at the level of DNA sequence change proteins and can lead to the development of cancer, and how scientists can use this knowledge to develop specific cancer treatments. 

Works cited in this conversation:

The Emperor of All Maladies: A Biography of Cancer by Siddhartha Mukherjee

Janet Rowley and her work on cancer genetics 

FLT3 inhibitors: a paradigm for the development of targeted therapeutics for paediatric cancer, in the European Journal of Cancer, March 2004 

The biology and targeting of FLT3 in pediatric leukemia, in Frontiers in Oncology, September 2014 

Episode highlights:

*Susan introduces Pat [1:58];

*Pat talks about his journey to becoming a physician and scientist focusing on pediatric leukemia [5:08];

*What is leukemia? Pat gives us an overview [8:46];

*Why leukemia has been at the forefront of cancer research and treatment [11:58];

*Pat’s early research and clinical work in leukemia [13:38];

*When, how, and why cancer treatment shifted from a one-size-fits-all approach to something more targeted [15:45];

*Some of the specifics of Pat’s work — what is FLT3? Why is it important in leukemia? [21:12];

*Pat’s work in developing clinical trials for treatments for children with leukemia — bench to bedside and back again [28:00];

*Success with the small molecule lestaurtinib, a first-generation FLT3 inhibitor [30:10];

*Pat’s group partnered with another company to produce a monoclonal antibody that could target FLT3 [31:12];

*Main challenge with both treatments (and challenge with all cancer therapies) is cancer developing resistance to treatment — people try to prevent resistance with multimodal treatments [32:20];

*Leads to the idea of personalized therapy — in each person, what are the genetic characteristics driving the cancer and can those be targeted with a cocktail tailored to that person? [35:40];

*Liquid biopsy’s potential in helping us see solid tumor cancers earlier and more comprehensively [36:58];

*Pat’s reflections on working in “translational medicine” — as a physician and a scientist — and the importance of bedside to bench as well as bench to bedside [39:21];

*How working as a scientist in academia is different from working in industry [43:25];

*What Pat is working on now, and his hopes for a decade or two out [50:04];

*High school science portion of the episode — Focusing on leukemia as an example, Pat tells us how changes in the DNA sequence of a gene can result in cancer. This connects to one of the Next Generation High School Science Standards in Life Science, which states that students should be able to construct an explanation based on evidence for how the structure of DNA determines the structure of proteins which carry out the essential functions of life through systems of specialized cells [55:23];

*Pat shares a memory from high school science [1:02:43];

*Pat’s advice to high school students today who are interested in science [1:04:05]

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Pat Brown is a Senior Clinical Trial Physician in Hematology Clinical Development at the pharmaceutical company Bristol Myers Squibb. (For listeners who aren't familiar with the word hematology, it means the study of blood and blood disorders.)

Pat earned a bachelor’s degree in engineering from the United States Military Academy in West Point, NY, and a master’s degree in philosophy and politics from Oxford University in England. He then went on to get his medical degree from Medical University of South Carolina College of Medicine and then completed his internship and residency training in pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Hospital, followed by completion of fellowship training in pediatrics hematology/oncology in the joint Johns Hopkins/National Cancer Institute program. He joined the Johns Hopkins faculty as an instructor, and was then promoted to assistant, associate, and full professor of oncology and pediatrics and the director of the Pediatric Leukemia Program at the Sidney Kimmel Comprehensive Cancer Center, with a focus on childhood leukemia, which is a cancer of the blood and bone marrow. During his time at Hopkins, Pat has mentored many students who went on to impactful careers in academic and industry, and was honored for his teaching by several awards and being selected to teach for the premiere national board review course for pediatric hematology/oncology. 

His lab found that a gene called FLT3 (which was initially discovered by Dr. Brown's mentor, Dr. Don Small) is especially important in certain kinds of childhood leukemia that are especially hard to cure. His lab also identified and helped develop promising combinations of standard chemotherapy drugs and FLT3 inhibitors that can work together to more effectively kill leukemia cells. 

Episode highlights:

*Susan introduces Pat [0:56];

*Pat gives an overview of leukemia — what is it? And how does it help us understand other cancers? [3:36];

*Pat explains how DNA mutations lead to cancer, and how those same mutations guide scientists to discover targeted cancer therapies [6:12]

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Our guests today are Sam and Meg Lubner. They are cancer doctors, and they are married!

Sam is a hematologist and oncologist at University of Wisconsin Health, and an associate professor at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health.

Meg is a professor of radiology at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health in the section of abdominal imaging and intervention.

Meg and Sam discuss how physics, chemistry, biology, and data science come together in modern medicine. Through real-world examples—CT scans, genetic mutations in cancer, and the use of AI in medical imaging—students see how foundational science concepts are applied to diagnose disease, design treatments, and make evidence-based decisions.

Best fit for:

High school biology, chemistry, physics, or interdisciplinary science; introductory college science courses

Key themes:

Scientific modeling, structure–property relationships, genetics, medical imaging, AI and ethics, science communication

*Susan introduces Sam Lubner, oncologist, and Meg Lubner, radiologist [0:38]; 

*Sam describes his unconventional path to medicine, from history major and sports radio to oncology [2:58]; 

*Sam discusses how his career evolved toward education, mentorship, and student leadership [5:19]; 

*Meg explains why radiology appealed to her, combining physics, chemistry, and patient care [7:44]; 

*Meg describes modern radiology, including image-guided procedures and patient interaction [10:05]; 

*Meg discusses the importance of mentorship and what made her teachers so influential [12:20]; 

*CT, ultrasound, MRI, fluoroscopy, and how different imaging tools answer different clinical questions [14:34]; 

*Life in the radiology reading room: collaboration, teaching, and learning in a shared space [16:48]; 

*Why physical proximity and shared workspaces matter for learning and patient care [19:02]; 

*Sam describes his roles as oncologist, fellowship director, and dean for students [21:21]; 

*The importance of understanding patients’ goals, quality of life, and side effects during cancer care [23:49]; 

*Team-based cancer care and close collaboration between oncologists, surgeons, and radiologists [26:07]; 

*Meg reflects on the emotional weight of oncology and Sam’s strengths as a communicator [28:32]; 

*Sam discusses compassion, physician wellness, and the human side of medical practice [30:54]; 

*Sam and Meg share insights from their talk on improving communication between oncologists and radiologists [32:19]; 

*Why word choice matters in radiology reports and how certain terms can alarm patients [34:41]; 

*The meaning of “progressive disease” and why precision in language is critical [37:04]; 

*Sam explains why clinicians should order imaging with clear hypotheses and specific questions [39:22]; 

*Radiologists as consultants: tailoring imaging and biopsies to clinical questions [41:43]; 

*Meg explains the physics behind CT scans and how ionizing radiation creates images [44:34]; 

*Hounsfield units, tissue density, and how radiologists distinguish cysts, tumors, fat, air, and bone [46:48]; 

*Radiology as “low-power microscopy” and the value of radiologic–pathologic correlation [49:16]; 

*Sam discusses targeted cancer therapies and genetic mutations such as KRAS [51:18]; 

*How basic biology, protein structure, and genetics drive modern cancer treatments [53:21]; 

*Meg explains how AI is currently used to triage imaging studies and detect urgent findings [55:40]; 

*AI tools for tumor detection, measurement, and automated image analysis [57:53]; 

*Opportunistic screening: extracting cardiovascular and metabolic risk data from CT scans [1:00:17]; 

*Bias, validation, and challenges in deploying AI tools in clinical practice [1:02:25]; 

*Advice for students interested in science: curiosity, persistence, and asking good questions [1:04:48]; 

*Why science matters—and encouragement for young scientists not to get discouraged [1:07:13];

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Our guests today are Sam and Meg Lubner. They are cancer doctors, and they are married!

Sam is a hematologist and oncologist at University of Wisconsin Health, and an associate professor at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health where he directs the Hematology and Medical Oncology fellowship program. He specializes in gastrointestinal malignancies. 

Meg is a professor of radiology at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health in the section of abdominal imaging and intervention. Meg works in the field of radiomics — a field focused on the extraction of quantitative information from diagnostic images — and her research interests include new technology in CT scans — which means using radiation like X-rays for instance to create detailed, cross-sectional images of the body.

In this MINI episode, Sam and Meg talk about the basic science behind how their cancer-fighting tools — imaging and targeted cancer therapies. This basic science is part of the high school science curriculum — the radiation that is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and the notion that DNA mutates. 

Tune in on Thursday for the full-length interview!

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Sam and Meg and today’s topic [1:30];

*Meg talks about imaging and how powerful it is as a tool in cancer care [3:25];

*Sam talks about targeted cancer therapy [9:46];

*Meg talks about changes in sampling of tumor tissue and imaging methods to try and maximize capturing the genetic profile of the tumor [13:02]

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Our guest today is Kelly Knudson. This episode is an edited version of an episode released during Season One of the podcast. 

Kelly is a professor of Anthropology in the School of Human Evolution and Social Change at Arizona State University, and director of the Center for Bioarchaeological Research and the Archaeological Chemistry Laboratory.

In this full-length interview, Kelly talks about what led her to pursue archaeological chemistry and shares how chemistry data helped her team reconstruct what happened at a 2,000-year-old site in Peru. She talks about how isotopes and the periodicity of atomic radii make this work possible. She then gives some advice to high school students interested in science. 

Resources:

Center for Bioarchaeological Research at ASU 

Kelly’s paper in PNAS entitled “Feasting and the evolution of cooperative social organizations circa 2300 B.P. in Paracas culture, southern Peru

The Periodic Table on the NIST website 

Radium Girls by Kate Moore 

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Kelly [1:15];

*The field school in Chile that led Kelly to study archaeological chemistry at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and pursue archaeological chemistry as a career at Arizona State University [1:55];

*How a summer program can have such an impact on one’s trajectory [6:10];

*What Kelly’s job is like — directing the archaeological chemistry laboratory and teaching both undergraduates, graduate students, and post-doctoral scholars in the classroom and lab [6:50];

*How one learns to run a lab [9:20];

*Discussing Kelly’s paper in PNAS on feasting and social cooperation in Peru 2,000 years ago — how Strontium isotopes helped her team understand what happened at this archaeological site [10:40];

*What Kelly and her team found based on the archaeological and isotopic evidence [16:58];

*How to make strontium isotope maps of an area — in Peru, guinea pigs are an ideal way to do this [20:38];

*How the archaeological and chemical evidence complemented each other in this study [29:00];

*Why looting at archaeological sites is so problematic [31:14];

*What happens when the archaeological and chemical evidence are at odds with each other? [31:40];

*How archaeological chemistry as a field has changed during Kelly’s career [36:05];

*What excites Kelly the most about his work [37:08];

*Susan asks about the Arizona state high school chemistry standard that asks students to explain how the structure of atoms relates to patterns and properties seen in the periodic table [38:27];

*Kelly explains that since strontium has a similar atomic radius as calcium because they are both in the same column of the periodic table — periodic trends! — strontium can substitute for calcium in bones [39:03];

*Kelly’s advice for high school students interested in science, and especially something specific, like for example, archaeological chemistry [42:40]

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Our guest today is Kelly Knudson. This episode is an edited version of an episode released during Season One of the podcast. 

Kelly is a professor of Anthropology in the School of Human Evolution and Social Change at Arizona State University, and director of the Center for Bioarchaeological Research and the Archaeological Chemistry Laboratory.

In this MINI episode, Kelly talks to us about how archaeologists use strontium isotopes to determine where things found at an archaeological site are from, and draws on the concept of periodic trends, specifically atomic radius, to talk about how strontium isotopes can substitute for calcium in bone. 

Tune in on Thursday for the full-length interview!

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Kelly and today’s topic [0:56];

*Susan gives a quick overview of isotopes [2:20];

*Kelly talks about how strontium isotopes help archaeologists determine where things at an archaeological site are from [4:00]; 

*Susan asks about the Arizona state high school chemistry standard that asks students to explain how the structure of atoms relates to patterns and properties seen in the periodic table [9:22];

*Kelly explains that since strontium has a similar atomic radius as calcium because they are both in the same column of the periodic table — periodic trends! — strontium can substitute for calcium in bones [9:50]

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Our guest today is Richard Edden 

Richard is a professor in the department of Neuroradiology at Johns Hopkins University. 

He uses a tool — a technology, a method— called Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS) to study the brain. Richard’s group focuses on both method development — how can they make MRS better? More informative? — and also what the specific findings mean for brain health. 

Resources:

Edden Research Group Web Page

Pubmed

Pubmed Central 

Healthy Brain and Child Development Study 

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Richard and today’s topic [1:20];

*Richard talks about his path to becoming a scientist, starting with growing up in Hampshire, England [2:18];

*On how a postdoc is a chance to go to the edge of what are qualified to do — go sideways — [15:30];

*What it’s like to work in a big lab [17:56];

*How interpreting an NMR spectrum is like solving a puzzle [18:50];

*How electronegativity is fundamental to NMR spectroscopy [24:12];

*Richard’s group has worked on interpreting magnetic resonance spectra taken on brain tissue [36:33];

*Magnetic resonance spectrum peaks — in brain tissue, one of the strongest peaks is from creatine [39:00];

*Richard began to ask, what can we do about some of those weaker signals in the spectra? [42:17]:

*Improving methods for looking at GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter, in the brain [42:30];

*Richard’s primary interest in the methods vs the neuroscience led to a a funny thing that happened at a conference [46:20];

*How do changes between people in the amount of GABA relate to people’s ability to do particular tasks? [48:43];

*The approach Richard’s group has taken with Hadamard encoding (subtraction editing) to amplify the GABA signal [51:13];

*We made the experiment twice as fast because we eliminated waste in the old way of doing things [59:00];

*How Richard had the idea for Hadamard encoding years before putting it in practice with GABA in the brain [1:01:42];

*It’s always better to be doing something than not doing something, but doing starts you thinking and generating more ideas [1:03:45];

*These methods are being used in many studies, including the Healthy Brain and Childhood Development study - national level, 25 universities - recruiting pregnant mothers to study brains of thousands of babies during the first five years of life [1:04:15];

*Listener question from Lucy Pohl, an 11th grader at Nightingale-Bamford school in Manhattan: What issues in science have become more significant to you as a result of your research? [1:09:01];

*Richard gives advice to students interested in a career in science [1:12:34];

*Resources for listeners to learn more about Richard’s work [1:20:12]

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Our guest today is Richard Edden. 

Richard is a professor in the department of Neuroradiology at Johns Hopkins University. 

He uses a tool — a technology, a method— called Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy (MRS) to study the brain. Richard’s group focuses on both method development — how can they make MRS better? More informative? — and also what the specific findings mean for brain health. 

In this MINI episode, Richard talks to us about spectroscopy and a particular kind of spectroscopy: nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, also known as NMR (and more familiarly, MRI.) Richard talks about why electronegativity, a concept taught in high school and early college chemistry, is essential to how NMR works.  

Tune in on Thursday for the full-length interview!

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Richard and today’s topic [0:56];

*Susan explains electronegativity and phrases the question to Richard [1:45];

*Richard answers, beginning with an explanation of spectroscopy, starting with the visible light spectrum [3:12];

*Richard describes NMR and how electronegativity influences it [4:23];

*Richard talks about the features of molecules in our body and how NMR can help distinguish them [8:44]

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Our guest today is Stephen Steiner: President, CEO, and founder of Aerogel Technologies. Stephen has a PhD from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Materials Chemistry and Engineering which he completed in the Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics, and a Master’s Degree in Materials Science and Engineering, also from MIT. 

Stephen has such an interesting story of really falling in love with science at a young age and doing so many interesting things on both the discovery side and the business side of science, really focused on aerogels. 

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Stephen’s Aerogel Website 

Photo of an aerogel - looks holographic

Aerogel Protects Chocolate from Blowtorch video

Search “Supercritical Magic Carpet” on Youtube 

Search “World’s Lightest Solid” on Youtube 

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Stephen and today’s topic [1:24];

*Stephen tells us what aerogels are [3:20];

*Stephen talks about his middle school science fair projects which he did for extra credit, not because he liked science — at first! [4:27];

*Stephen’s high school science fair projects, now that he liked science! [6:09];

*Stephen’s foray into competitive science seminar with a teacher who taught him the algorithm for creativity [9:30];

*Things to consider when picking a research topic [12:23];

*Stephen’s first foray into making an aerogel [15:28]; 

*Removing a liquid from a gel while preserving the gel-like structure in a process called supercritical drying [21:10];

*Stephen decides to make an autoclave for supercritical drying [24:58];

*After FORTY tries, Stephen makes his first aerogel in his basement, at age 17! [30:00];

*Having a do-it-yourself attitude and persistence [35:14];

*Stephen’s experience with normal science classes while he was conducting real research in his basement in middle and high school [37:05];

*Undergrad institutions and what it takes to get in [45:04];

*Stephen applying to graduate programs and getting into MIT [49:05];

*Senior, established scientists like to help younger people who reach out for help [52:52];

*Stephen’s commitment to sharing knowledge and making knowledge accessible [53:22];

*Aerogels and their interesting properties [1:01:32];

*Why aerogels are such good insulators — the Knudsen effect [1:04:52];

*How do properties of elements perpetuate in aerogels made out of those elements? [1:10:27];

*How aerogels were first invented [1:15:29];

*Why making aerogels ends up breaking the ideal gas law [1:18:35];

*What does it mean when PV no longer equals nRT? [1:20:53];

*What is the critical point? Liquid and the gas become the same! [1:25:12];

*Properties of supercritical fluids and the magic in watching them form [1:29:12];

*Applications of aerogels kicked off by a listener question from Riley, a junior from the Chapin School, about aerogels and space travel [1:33:07];

*The challenging problem of insulating cryogenic tanks for rockets and potential for polyimide aerogels to solve this [1:37:07];

*What advice does Stephen have for students interested in science? Spoiler: Thorium! [1:45:40]

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Our guest today is Stephen Steiner. 

Stephen is President, CEO, and founder of Aerogel Technologies, a company based outside of Boston. Stephen has a PhD from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Materials Chemistry and Engineering which he completed in the Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics, and a Master’s Degree in Materials Science and Engineering, also from MIT. 

And prior to graduate school, Stephen got his Bachelor’s degree in Chemistry at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, and that is actually how I know Stephen! I was in the graduate program in chemistry and a lab teaching assistant one summer — I think it was the summer of 2001 — and Stephen was working at the stockroom window where undergrads needed to get various supplies for completing their lab projects.

Stephen has such an interesting story of really falling in love with science at a young age and doing so many interesting things on both the discovery side and the business side of science, focused on aerogels. 

In this MINI episode, Stephen talks to us about the invention of aerogels, and how the process of making them defies the ideal gas law, PV = nRT, and how we see that by the formation of a critical fluid. Tune in on Thursday for the full-length interview!

Highlights of the episode:

*Susan introduces Stephen and today’s topic [0:56];

*Stephen tells us what aerogels are [3:02];

*Stephen describes the invention of aerogels [3:38];

*Stephen talks about why the ideal gas law no longer holds in the formation of aerogels [6:26].

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