Scream Creeps

Jeremy and Josh dig into Dario Argento’s 1977 supernatural horror film, exploring why it remains a landmark of atmosphere, color, and sound. They discuss how the Academy becomes a character, why Goblin’s score is essential, and whether a horror movie can be a masterpiece when its atmosphere is stronger than its plot.

Key topics

• Suspiria as part of the podcast’s 31 Days of Halloween series and its “Horror Master” theme.
• The setup: Susie Bannion, played by Jessica Harper, arrives at a prestigious dance academy in Germany during a storm and quickly senses something is wrong.
• The Academy’s exaggerated architecture, stylized lighting, and off-center framing—and how the building itself becomes part of the horror.
• Dario Argento’s Italian giallo roots and the film’s distinctive move into supernatural horror.
• Goblin’s unsettling score, which the hosts describe as a force within the Academy rather than background music.
• The contrast between the film’s striking beauty and its stylized violence.
• The reveal that the Academy is connected to a supernatural coven led by Helena Marcos.
• A horror hot seat: would Josh stay to investigate or head straight to the airport?
• The hosts’ verdict on whether atmosphere can make a horror movie a masterpiece, even when the plot is less developed.

Timestamps

00:00 - Entering the nightmare of Suspiria
01:01 - Day 21 of 31 Days of Halloween
02:26 - Why Argento fits the Horror Master theme
03:56 - Susie Bannion arrives at the academy
05:19 - Isolation, strange behavior, and dreamlike unease
07:04 - What makes Suspiria frightening: story or presentation?
08:04 - Susie as the audience’s entry point
09:40 - Madame Blanc, authority, and hidden control
11:33 - The Academy as a character
13:18 - Argento’s giallo roots and visual style
16:48 - Goblin’s score and why the sound is unforgettable
19:27 - Stylized violence and the beauty-horror contrast
21:53 - Horror hot seat: would you stay at the academy?
25:21 - Can atmosphere outweigh plot in horror?
29:27 - The coven reveal and Helena Marcos
30:49 - Susie’s shift from observer to active force
32:07 - Does the witch reveal help or hurt the mystery?
34:08 - The hosts rate the film across five categories
37:01 - Final verdict and audience questions
38:31 - Why the film works as an audiovisual nightmare
40:24 - Closing thoughts on the film’s influence and identity

Questions for listeners

• Is Suspiria one of the greatest horror films ever made, or does its style sometimes overpower its story?
• What matters more to you in horror: unforgettable atmosphere or a tightly constructed plot?
• Would you have stayed at the Academy to investigate, or taken the first flight home?

Spoiler warning

The discussion from about 28:49 onward covers the Academy’s secrets and the film’s ending.

Jeremy and Josh break down the 2004 horror film Saw, focusing on its claustrophobic setup, the moral pressure baked into Jigsaw’s “tests,” and the twist ending that changed how the whole movie plays on a rewatch. They also compare the first film to the rest of the franchise and rate it across atmosphere, characters, gore, story, and lasting impact.

In this episode:

• Jeremy and Josh open with the core premise of Saw: two men waking up chained in a filthy bathroom with a dead body, a tape recorder, and a deadly set of rules
• They discuss why the film felt fresh in 2004 by blending horror, mystery, and a police investigation instead of relying only on gore
• Jeremy covers the main setup involving Dr. Lawrence Gordon, Adam Stanheight, Detective David Tapp, and Jigsaw
• Josh explains why the movie works as both a murder mystery and a trap-based horror film
• They unpack how the bathroom setting becomes almost like a character because of its grime, confinement, and unease
• The conversation digs into trust, uncertainty, and how the film makes the audience solve the mystery alongside the trapped characters
• Jeremy and Josh talk through Dr. Lawrence Gordon as a controlled, high-pressure character whose family is part of the ultimatum
• They discuss Adam as the audience surrogate, confused and scrambling to understand what’s happening
• Detective Tapp’s obsession with catching Jigsaw is presented as a parallel to the captives’ own pressure
• Jigsaw’s philosophy is examined as a contradiction: he claims to value life while creating deadly situations and deciding who deserves a chance
• The hosts highlight Billy the puppet as one of the franchise’s most recognizable and disturbing images
• They talk about the traps as moral dilemmas, not just gore, since survival often depends on making brutal choices fast
• The episode revisits the ending, where the “dead body” rises as John Kramer, revealing one of horror’s most famous twists
• In the horror hot seat, Josh says he would immediately hit play on the tape, try to break free, and avoid hurting anyone else
• They close by debating whether the original Saw is the strongest film in the franchise, with both leaning yes

Timestamps:

00:00 - Opening nightmare setup and the “I want to play a game” intro
02:17 - Why Saw stands out in early 2000s horror
05:19 - The bathroom setup, Adam, Gordon, and Detective Tapp
08:55 - Dr. Lawrence Gordon and the pressure on a seemingly ordinary doctor
11:38 - Adam as the audience’s entry point into the nightmare
13:49 - Detective Tapp and the outside investigation
15:47 - Jigsaw’s philosophy and why it’s so disturbing
17:20 - Why the traps define the Saw identity
19:09 - Josh on rooting for Jigsaw’s logic, and the Amanda Young discussion
22:19 - Horror hot seat: what would you do if you woke up trapped?
25:03 - Guilt, responsibility, and Jigsaw’s control over choices
26:59 - Is the original Saw the best in the franchise?
30:10 - Spoiler warning and the reveal that changes everything
31:07 - John Kramer’s final reveal and the impact of the twist
34:08 - Horror check: atmosphere, characters, gore, story, and impact
36:59 - Final discussion questions and listener prompts
38:13 - Why the movie lasts beyond the gore
39:53 - Closing thoughts on Saw and the Halloween series

Notable Quotes: 

• “If a puppet appears on a TV screen and starts giving me instructions, I’m leaving the country.”
• “The room hasn’t changed. The objects haven’t changed, but our understanding of the situation has changed completely.”
• “The most dangerous game is the one where somebody else makes the rules.”

Josh and Jeremy break down Dan O'Bannon's 1985 cult zombie classic, focusing on why it still stands out: punk energy, practical effects, dark comedy, and a zombie mythology that breaks the usual rules. They also test the movie’s survival logic, revisit the ending, and score it across atmosphere, characters, gore, originality, and lasting impact.

Key Topics

• We discuss how the movie starts with a workplace disaster in a medical supply warehouse and turns into a full-scale zombie outbreak.
• Jeremy explains why Frank’s decision to open the military canister is the spark that sets everything in motion.
• In this episode, Josh and Jeremy talk through the movie’s unusual zombie rules, especially that headshots do not solve the problem and the dead can still communicate.
• They cover the main characters, including Frank, Freddie, Bert, and Trash, and how each one adds a different tone to the story.
• The hosts highlight Trash’s cemetery sequence as one of the film’s most memorable and boundary-pushing moments.
• They dig into the practical effects, zombie makeup, and creature designs, including Tarman and the blue, decayed look of the undead.
• The episode compares the movie’s zombie speed, communication, and pain response to other zombie films, including Train to Busan.
• They talk about the film’s punk soundtrack and rebellious attitude as part of what gives it identity.
• The hosts debate the ending, where containment fails and the military response becomes catastrophic.
• They close by scoring the film and agreeing it is a cult classic with a strong blend of horror and comedy.

Timestamps

00:00 - Opening setup: a warehouse, a canister, and the outbreak begins
 03:17 - Introducing The Return of the Living Dead as the day 19 Halloween pick
 05:15 - What this episode will cover: characters, comedy, punk energy, and practical effects
 06:02 - Freddie and Frank open the canister and trigger the disaster
 08:27 - Why the characters feel like ordinary people improvising under pressure
 09:43 - Why burning the bodies makes everything worse
 11:09 - Frank’s role, guilt, and the human side of the disaster
 13:10 - Freddie as the ordinary employee caught in a nightmare
 14:31 - Bert as the practical warehouse owner trying to contain the chaos
 15:53 - Trash, punk attitude, and the cemetery sequence
 17:11 - The zombies are different: they talk, move fast, and want brains
 18:16 - The disturbing twist that the zombies can feel pain
 19:09 - Why communicating zombies are scarier than silent ones
 20:27 - Zombie makeup, Tarman, and the film’s distinct creature designs
 21:17 - The military cover-up behind the outbreak
 21:47 - Horror hot seat: could you survive the outbreak?
 23:57 - Josh’s survival plan and Jeremy’s barricade-and-call-for-help strategy
 26:42 - Why the movie’s personality comes from humor, punk rock, and grotesque effects
 27:37 - Practical effects and soundtrack as core parts of the film’s identity
 28:55 - Why the warehouse, streets, and cemetery setting works so well
 29:09 - Agree to disagree: is this one of the greatest zombie movies ever?
 31:32 - Spoiler warning and discussion of the bleak ending
 33:27 - The ending as a cover-up turning into a much bigger disaster
 35:11 - Horror check scores: atmosphere, characters, gore, comedy, and lasting impact
 37:46 - Listener questions about favorite zombie films and the scariest zombie rule
 39:25 - Why the movie’s chaos works because the threat was mishandled from the start
 41:07 - Closing thoughts, show wrap-up, and final horror warnings

Notable quotes 

• “Send more paramedics.”
• “Brains.”
• “If a mysterious container begins hissing, do not open it.”

Horror check

• Atmosphere - 9/10
• Characters and performances - 8.5/10
• Horror and gore - 9/10
• Comedy and originality - 10/10
• Lasting impact - 9.5/10

Combined score: 9.1/10

Tonight’s episode covers the 1976 film Carrie, directed by Brian De Palma and adapted from Stephen King’s first published novel. The discussion focuses on how the movie blends supernatural horror with bullying, abuse, shame, and isolation, making the prom sequence one of horror’s most iconic and devastating set pieces.Jeremy and Josh also break down the performances from Sissy Spacek and Piper Laurie, debate whether Carrie or the people around her are the real monster, and close with a horror rating that places the film among the strongest entries in the series.

Key topics

• Carrie White’s story as a bullied, isolated teenager who discovers telekinetic powers
• Why the movie works as both supernatural horror and a tragedy about cruelty
• Sissy Spacek’s performance as Carrie, balancing vulnerability, confusion, and growing danger
• Piper Laurie’s Margaret White as one of horror’s most disturbing parental figures
• Sue Snell’s guilt, remorse, and attempt to repair harm
• Chris Hargensen as the clearest human antagonist, escalating humiliation into catastrophe
• The prom prank, the blood bucket, and why the sequence still lands decades later
• How Brian De Palma builds tension through pacing, camera movement, editing, and sound
• Stephen King’s appeal, especially his use of ordinary human behavior as the foundation for horror
• The central moral question: who is the real monster in Carrie?

Timestamps

00:00 - Prom night nightmare opens with Carrie’s humiliation
 01:43 - Welcome to Scream Creeps and the 31 Days of Halloween series
 02:11 - Introducing Carrie and its lead performances
03:45 - Why the movie is scary because the cruelty feels real
04:51 - Carrie’s backstory and the prom prank setup
09:28 - Sissy Spacek’s performance and Carrie as victim and threat
13:03 - Margaret White as abusive, religious, and terrifying
14:54 - Sue Snell’s guilt and attempted redemption
16:32 - Chris Hargensen and cruelty turning into catastrophe
17:39 - The prom scene and the blood bucket reveal
20:45 - Carrie’s breaking point and the telekinetic meltdown
21:40 - Horror Hot Seat - what would you do in the gym?
24:57 - Stephen King’s career and why his horror hits so hard
28:38 - Agree to disagree - who is the real monster?
31:14 - Horror check scoring across atmosphere, performances, tension, themes, and impact
35:20 - Final takeaway - Carrie as tragedy, horror, and social warning
37:02 - Closing thoughts on the 31 Days of Halloween series

Notable quotes

“You defeat telekinesis by being somewhere else.”

“The monster doesn’t always need to be something with claws or fangs.”

“The scariest things in the room might not be the thing you expect.”

Horror check

• Atmosphere: 9/10
• Performances: 10/10
• Horror and tension: 9.5/10
• Story and themes: 9.5/10
• Lasting impact: 10/10

Final rating

Combined Scream Creeps rating: 9.4/10

Jeremy and Josh dig into why The Rocky Horror Picture Show became more than a movie and turned into a participatory Halloween tradition. They cover its horror, comedy, musical, and sci-fi elements, then break down the performances, audience rituals, and lasting cult legacy.This episode also includes personal memories of midnight screenings, costume participation, and why Tim Curry’s Dr. Frankenfurter remains the film’s defining force.

Key topics

• In this episode, Jeremy opens by framing The Rocky Horror Picture Show as a cult classic that blends horror, sci-fi, comedy, music, and theatrical excess into one unforgettable experience.
• Josh shares a personal story about attending a live screening with a shadow cast, costume contest, and audience traditions, including dressing as Meat Loaf’s character.
• The hosts explain how Brad and Janet’s broken-down car and decision to enter the castle set up the entire film’s clash between respectability and liberated chaos.
• Jeremy and Josh both point to Dr. Frankenfurter as the centerpiece of the film, with Tim Curry’s performance described as confident, funny, seductive, and intimidating all at once.
• They discuss how the castle works as a boundary between the ordinary world and a hidden space where people live more openly and outside social expectations.
• The episode highlights the film’s interactive afterlife, especially midnight screenings, callbacks, audience participation, and shadow casts that turned the movie into a shared social event.
• Josh argues that the film’s appeal comes from the whole package, not just the songs, while Jeremy emphasizes how the music gives the movie its rhythm and lasting identity.
• The hosts single out “The Time Warp” as the most recognizable number and a major reason the audience participation tradition became so iconic.
• They debate whether the film should be classified as horror, ultimately agreeing that it resists any single genre label and works as a mix of horror, musical, comedy, and gothic sci-fi.
• The closing discussion centers on why the movie’s legacy endured: audiences kept returning, dressing up, quoting lines, and turning the film into a ritual rather than just a screening.

Timestamps

00:00 - Opening with the film’s outrageous tone and cult appeal
 00:23 - Brad and Janet’s stormy detour into the castle
 01:32 - Why the movie became a cultural phenomenon
 03:21 - Josh’s first costume screening experience
 04:47 - First-time reaction to how weird the movie is
 06:11 - Why The Rocky Horror Picture Show fits the cult classic theme
09:03 - Brad and Janet’s setup and the castle as a doorway to another world
10:09 - Why the couple works as audience surrogates
12:47 - Richard O’Brien, the stage musical, and casting trivia
14:14 - How the film turns classic horror setup into musical theater
15:20 - The box office bomb discussion and why the label is misleading
15:20 - Dr. Frankenfurter as the film’s most memorable character
17:29 - Brad and Janet as the straight-faced entry point
18:15 - Riff Raff, Magenta, Columbia, and the castle’s strange hierarchy
19:42 - Why the film became a cult phenomenon after release
22:02 - Audience participation, callbacks, and why screenings became events
25:04 - The role of music in the film’s identity
26:34 - Why “The Time Warp” is the signature song
27:26 - Horror hot seat: would Josh enter the castle?
30:13 - Is the film horror, comedy, musical, or something else?
33:10 - Horror check scores for atmosphere, performances, horror, style, and legacy
35:08 - Final ratings and why the film refuses to behave normally
37:02 - Josh’s final thoughts on Frankenfurter and cosplay confidence
37:34 - Why the movie’s weirdness is exactly what made it last
39:28 - Closing thoughts on embracing the strange

Notable quotes

“It’s a movie that found its audience at midnight.”

“The audience becomes part of it.”

“It doesn’t seem interested in becoming ordinary.”

Key frameworks

• Cult classic formula - A movie that may not succeed immediately but grows through audience devotion, repeat viewing, and shared ritual.
• Castle as threshold - The castle separates the respectable outside world from a hidden space where identity and desire operate differently.
• Audience-as-participant model - The screening itself becomes part of the experience through costumes, callbacks, and shadow casts.

Jeremy and Josh break down The Last Exorcism, a possession horror film that follows a skeptic preacher trying to expose exorcism as fraud, only to face a case that refuses to fit his explanations. The episode focuses on why the movie works as both a horror story and a study of certainty, manipulation, and the limits of skepticism.They also compare possession horror to other genre staples, discuss the strengths and weaknesses of found footage, and debate whether the supernatural threat or the human ability to manipulate belief is scarier.

Key topics

• Jeremy introduces the film as a possession and exorcism story centered on Reverend Cotton Marcus, a preacher who no longer believes in the supernatural side of his work but agrees to film one final exorcism.
• Josh and Jeremy discuss Cotton as a complicated lead, not a simple villain, because he believes he is helping people even while admitting the rituals are fake.
• They explore why Nell Sweetzer works so well as a possession character, especially because her vulnerability and unclear behavior keep the audience uncertain about what is really happening.
• The episode argues that possession horror is effective because it attacks personal control, making the body, voice, and behavior feel unsafe.
• Jeremy explains that the movie’s strongest tension comes from skepticism turning into overconfidence, since Cotton believes his doubt makes him immune to being wrong.
• They discuss the documentary and found footage style, noting that the camera has a believable reason to be there, even if Josh says the format usually does not work for him.
• The hosts compare supernatural fear with human deception, debating whether the movie is scarier because of possible demons or because frightened people can be manipulated.
• They cover the film’s bleak ending and final stretch, with Josh noting that the twist works and that Cotton’s faith is restored in a way that pushes him toward action rather than retreat.
• The episode closes with a franchise note, including mention that The Last Exorcism Part Two was released in 2013 and continues Nell’s story.
• They finish with their horror check scores, with Jeremy praising atmosphere, performances, and story, while Josh is much less enthusiastic about the found footage approach.

Timestamps

00:00 - Cotton Marcus opens by exposing the exorcism business
 02:03 - Scream Creeps intro and 31 Days of Halloween context
 03:04 - What The Last Exorcism is about and why it matters
04:15 - Why possession horror gets under the skin
05:02 - Cotton’s skepticism becomes the movie’s central tension
06:17 - Patrick Fabian’s Cotton Marcus and the “final exorcism” setup
07:12 - Is Cotton a fraud, a helper, or both?
10:28 - Skepticism versus certainty in horror
10:58 - Nell Sweetzer arrives and the investigation turns darker
11:37 - Why Nell is such an effective possession character
14:49 - The found footage style and why the camera matters
16:43 - Seeing something without understanding it
17:34 - Why possession horror attacks control and identity
19:25 - The emotional horror of families under pressure
21:19 - Horror hot seat: what would you do in Cotton’s position?
24:20 - Staying or leaving when the house turns dangerous
25:35 - Is belief without evidence worse than dismissal?
27:55 - The film’s final act and collapsing certainty
28:41 - Josh on the twist and the ending
30:13 - Why the camera cannot save anyone
31:39 - Agree to disagree: demons versus manipulation
34:21 - Trivia and the sequel, The Last Exorcism Part Two
35:20 - Scream Creeps horror check begins
36:09 - Performances and Ashley Bell’s Nell
37:16 - Found footage score, with Josh pushing back
38:10 - Story and ending scores
39:51 - Final ratings and rewatchability
40:13 - Listener questions for the audience
42:32 - Final thoughts on certainty and horror
44:04 - Wrap-up of day sixteen in the Halloween series

Notable quotes

“Being skeptical means you want evidence. Being certain that you’ve already figured everything out means you might stop looking for it.

“The camera can show you what happened, but it can’t necessarily tell you what to do about it.”

“Maybe the scariest part is not knowing which explanation is actually correct.”

Jeremy and Josh take on Gerald’s Game (2017), Mike Flanagan’s psychological horror film based on Stephen King’s novel. A secluded getaway turns into a fight for survival when Jesse is left handcuffed to a bed after her husband dies. The hosts unpack the film’s claustrophobic setup, Carla Gugino’s performance, the Moonlight Man, and the trauma Jesse must confront.Spoiler warning: This episode discusses Jesse’s childhood trauma, the escape sequence, and the ending.

In this episode

• How isolation and a simple bedroom setting build intense suspense
• Carla Gugino’s demanding, character-driven performance
• Gerald’s imagined presence and its role in Jesse’s inner struggle
• The Moonlight Man and the question of what’s real
• How Jesse’s past shapes the film’s emotional story
• The escape sequence and the difficult choices survival can demand
• Jeremy and Josh’s debate: psychological horror or supernatural horror?
• Their final verdict on whether Gerald’s Game still holds up

Timestamps

00:00 — A secluded getaway becomes a nightmare
 02:12 — Welcome to day 15 of 31 Days of Halloween
 04:27 — Why the film’s premise works
 07:33 — Jesse’s situation and the survival problem
 12:55 — Carla Gugino’s performance
 16:46 — Gerald’s imagined presence
 21:02 — The bedroom becomes a prison
 23:12 — Horror hot seat: what would you do?
 28:28 — The Moonlight Man and blurred reality
 32:06 — Jesse’s childhood trauma
 36:19 — The dog adds another threat
 38:12 — The escape sequence
 43:39 — The Moonlight Man’s reveal
 46:46 — Psychological horror vs. supernatural horror
 49:05 — The Scream Creeps horror check
 55:08 — The survival game
 60:34 — What is the real monster in Gerald’s Game?
62:34 — Final verdict
66:24 — What makes the film memorable
70:22 — Final advice for horror fans

Join the conversation

Is Gerald’s Game more psychological thriller or horror? Which part disturbed you most: the isolation, the escape, Jesse’s memories, or the Moonlight Man? And do you think you could have survived Jesse’s situation?
Follow Scream Creeps, share the episode with a fellow horror fan, and come back for day 16 of 31 Days of Halloween.

Summary

In this episode, we explore the horror and storytelling techniques of the 2008 film Cloverfield, focusing on its found footage format, character dynamics, and the impact of its monster design. We analyze how the film creates tension and immerses viewers in a city under attack.

Key Topics

The use of found footage to create immediacy and uncertainty
Character relationships and their emotional stakes
The design and scale of the monster and smaller creatures
The impact of the city setting and landmarks
The film's ending and its emotional resonance
The decision-making of characters in a disaster scenario
The role of the camera operator as a character
The film's rewatch value and hidden details

Sound Bites

"We discover the monster alongside the characters"
"The camera makes us wonder or discover the monster"
"Sometimes not knowing what's happening is scarier"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Cloverfield and its significance
02:06 The opening party and normal life before disaster
03:59 The city under attack: first glimpses of the monster
06:08 The use of found footage to build tension
08:00 Character reactions and the personal story
10:57 Rob's mission to save Beth and emotional stakes
13:05 The chaos of navigating a city in ruins
15:05 Underground horror and smaller creatures
17:12 Military response and its limitations
19:06 The ending and its emotional impact
21:01 The film's legacy and rewatch value

Summary

In this episode, we explore the iconic horror crossover Freddy vs. Jason, analyzing the characters, the battles, and what makes this film a standout in horror history. Join us as we dissect the clash of two legendary villains and what it reveals about horror storytelling.

Key Topics

The characters and their unique horror styles
The narrative and strategic manipulation of Freddy and Jason
The iconic kills and spectacle moments
The significance of the final showdown location
The psychological vs. physical horror dynamics
The cultural impact and fan debates about the film
The role of dream manipulation and physical force
The character development and actor performances

Sound Bites

"Freddy enjoys making you suffer"
"Jason is the unstoppable nightmare"
"Freddy gets the last laugh"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Freddy vs. Jason and its significance
01:52 The origins of Freddy Krueger and Jason Voorhees
04:03 Freddy's need for fear and his manipulation of Jason
06:05 Jason's unstoppable physical force and role in the story
07:57 The group of teenagers and their role in the plot
10:09 The iconic kills and spectacle moments
12:04 The dream world versus physical world tactics
14:05 The final showdown at Crystal Lake
15:56 Who really wins in the battle of horror icons?
18:02 The cultural impact and fan debates
20:01 The legacy of Freddy vs. Jason and its entertainment value

Summary

In this episode, we explore the horror and tragedy of David Cronenberg's The Fly, focusing on its themes of obsession, body horror, and the consequences of scientific hubris. We analyze the film's transformation of a classic story into a dark, visceral experience and discuss what makes it a masterpiece of body horror.

Key Topics

The central theme of obsession and transformation in The Fly
Comparison between the original 1958 film and Cronenberg's 1986 remake
The practical effects and makeup that brought Seth Brundle's transformation to life
The emotional and tragic dimension of Seth's character arc
The role of Veronica as a witness and victim of Seth's transformation
The significance of the telepods and scientific hubris in the story
The film's exploration of losing control over one's body and identity
The impact of body horror effects on audience perception and fear
The film's ending and its message about the consequences of scientific hubris

Sound bites

"The human body is a pretty fragile thing."
"The mirror isn't showing Seth a monster, it's showing what he's becoming."
"If someone is changing beyond recognition, when do you stop being able to save them?"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to The Fly and its themes
02:07 The human body's fragility and body horror
13:10 The mirror as a symbol of transformation
28:23 The question of saving someone beyond recognition
40:22 What we take away from The Fly