We invite our friend Ashley O’Brion (the creative genius behind our branding) to join us for a live conversation in Christina’s small cathedral of a studio. We spoke for over two hours and meandered through a vast expanse of things: how we each discern cultural conditioning from authentic expression, how routine togetherness can cause “scenius,” a term coined by musician Brian Eno that describes collective creative imagination, how Ashley’s last couple of years have helped her learn to trust herself and to listen to that small voice, even if it asks her to bury herself in her garden after leaving the workplace to take a pause.

We discuss the idea that being busy is often a distraction from some nagging truth, and how solitude may be a worthwhile practice.

This conversation will continue with a part two, releasing on November 28th.

If you would like to learn more about Ashley’s creative genius, check out her website:

ashleyobrion.com

And as always, to learn more about Christina’s art or how you can work with Becky to sculpt your own intentional life, check out our websites below:

christinawatka.com

beckydecicco.com

Finally a bit of a warning - if your small voice tells you to bury yourself in the garden, please do so horizontally, surrounded by people who love you, and with great care.

Thank you for listening, and if you like what you heard you can rate us on Apple, Spotify, or share your favorite episode with a friend!

Episode Transcript

Christina: Wow, thank you for sharing these messages and like the whole time it really just made me feel so pumped to just sit at my studio table with both of you and have a really beautiful long chat. Um, and you were one of the people that as we made this, I was like, Ashley O’Brien is going to find such a home in this.

Also, like Ashley O’Brien should talk to Becky. I know that should happen. So I just kept dangling it in front of you and then when the time was right, you found her. Isn’t it beautiful? Isn’t it just so beautiful. Um, yeah. Yeah. It’s wonderful. I love you both so much. This is a really special note to receive and, um, gorgeous, gorgeous.

You both have also been pivotal in my life, so it’s nice that there’s that give and take. Um, I’m just getting home and now I’m gonna take my daughters to the pool for an hour. Okay? I love you. Bye

Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. The next two episodes we’ll release are really special. We invited our friend Ashley O’Brien, who is the creative genius behind our branding, to join us for a live conversation in Christina’s small cathedral of a studio. We spoke over two hours and meandered through a vast expanse of topics.

How we each discern cultural conditioning from authentic expression. How routine togetherness can cause “scenius”. And how Ashley’s last couple of years have helped her learn to trust herself and to listen to that small voice, even if it asks her to bury herself in the garden. This very special conversation will continue with a part two that will be released on November 28th.

I hope you enjoy.

Christina: We could just start, I did like Dog Year, a poem that I read recently and I was like, maybe we could start with that. If so, if that’s helpful.

Becky: That sounds good.

Christina: Sometimes starting is the hardest part.

Becky: Actually, actually, can we start, do you mind if I, you can join me or not? Yes. But I just wanna like ground myself for one second. Yes, let’s do that. I just wanna like, feel my butt on the seat. Mm-hmm. Take in some deep breaths.

Just noticing the texture of the body,

just allow this to establish your place in space and time right now.

Take a few more deep breaths

Becky: I needed that.

Mm-hmm.

Christina: We should do that together every time. Why don’t we do that together?

Becky: Because we pro. ‘cause we both do it in,

Christina: we’re doing it on our own.

Becky: Wow. But I was like, I’m not gonna have time to do my grounding.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Which is a new, which is kind of, um, it’s a new thing for me ‘cause like I wouldn’t have thought about my needs and expressed my needs when I’m around other people. So, yay me.

Christina: Good for you.

Becky: Thanks.

Ashley: But that is how I have interacted with you. Every interaction I’ve had, we would go through a grounding exercise first so that felt very familiar.

Becky: It did it. I mean, there I definitely needed it. Yeah. And there I was kind of the guide, so

Ashley: yeah, exactly.

Becky: It made sense that I, I would, you know, in that context, it’s like clearly I’m here to guide, but in like social context, it’s very different for me to say, I need this. Do you mind if I, you know, and no one gives a shit.

No one cares. But it’s like my own shit that would get in the way of like. What do I need right now? I needed to shake it off.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And it’s also like so beautiful to notice that, to know like, oh, I need to shake. Oh, I need to ground myself and then to express it. So

Christina: to do it.

Becky: Yeah. But I am interested in your poem.

Christina: Mm. I’ll read it.

Becky: Great.

Christina: Well, it’s Mary Oliver, I, I, this, this, um, this book has been dogeared so many times and I read it. Um, uh, one of the twins is really interested in poetry and she goes and pretends to write her own poems. ‘cause she can’t write words completely yet but she’ll go and write things and then read them to me later.

And they’re always like, she wrote one this weekend that was like, she said, the wind, the wind grows like the trees. That’s what her poem was. And I said, really? Do you wanna tell me more about it? And she said, yeah. Like the wind goes up, like the trees grow. And that was it. So great. Anyway, so we started, much to my delight, we end every night.

When I take the twins to bed, we end by, um, I offer them a poem if they want, or a story or a book. And we’ve chosen a poem and we’re like, this is Mary Oliver’s devotions, which is my personal Bible. And it’s probably like we’re like two thirds through. So Golden Rod has been speaking to me a lot lately and this, this, um, poem is called Golden Rod “On roadside in Fall Fields in Rumpy Bunches, saffron and Orange and Pale Gold in little towers Soft as mash sneeze bringers and seed bearers full of bees and yellow beads and perfect flower lits and orange butterflies. I don’t suppose much notice comes of it except for honey and how it heartens the heart with its blank blaze.

I don’t suppose anything loves it except perhaps. The rocky voids filled by its dumb dazzle. For myself, I was just passing by when the wind flared and the blossoms rustled and the glittering pandemonium leaned on me. I was just mining my own business when I found myself on their straw hillsides, citron and butter colored and was happy.

And why not are not the difficult labors of our lives full of dark hours. And what has consciousness come to anyway so far that is better than these light-filled bodies all day on their airy backbones? They toss in the wind, they bend as though it was natural and godly to bend. They rise in a stiff sweetness, in the pure peace of giving one’s gold away.

Isn’t it great? Don’t your parents call this? Don’t they call ‘em ragweed? Yeah,

Becky: ragweed.

Christina: Hmm. Most people think golden rod is just like, no big deal. Just a weed. A had weed.

Ashley: A weed, a weed that kicks up seasonal allergies.

Christina: Which it does. It does,

Ashley: does it, does it? I also find it so beautiful.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: But in, in my history, I do remember it being a, don’t, don’t go near the ragweed.

Becky: Yeah. So interesting how our histories shape, how we view the world.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Yeah,

Christina: I know. I just thought, I mean, Mary Oliver is, is the queen of noticing in my opinion, and she just.

She’s just like walking by and she said it just, the pandemonium just leaned on her and then all of a sudden it’s like, wow, there’s this thing that I’ve never actually given my attention to. Right. In this way, giving one’s gold away. That was the other one that felt really, really wonderful on the heels of our last conversation, which was talking about, um, manifestation and generosity being held in the same hand.

Christina: To think of Golden Rod doing that and then thinking of you doing that, or me or Ashley.

It’s nice and it’s, it’s the season of Golden Rod now here in Maine.

Becky: Right now. It is.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: The only thing I knew about Golden Rod was from, um, braiding sweet Grass around like the golden rod and in a purple.

Yeah. Like going together and how the bees can see it. Mm-hmm. Because of how they. Come together.

Christina: Such a transformative book. Sometimes I’ll open that book to a page and just read what it has to say. Like an offering, like an Oracle deck.

Ashley: Yes.

Christina: Braiding. Sweetgrass is an oracle deck.

Ashley: I agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think because, um, I think in one of your earlier conversations you also talked about the birds not caring about, you know, what the expectations were on them, but maybe I’m misplacing that conversation and it sub reading sweet sweetgrass conversation. But just that the world and nature goes on without being self-conscious and that oftentimes we’re so locked in on our self-consciousness.

Ashley: Um, or cultural expectations, or whatever.

You know, and we could just go forward and give our gold or, you know, do our life

without being burdened by the things that so many humans are often burdened by.

Becky: We’re crazy creatures.

Ashley: We are crazy creatures.

Becky: I’m still obsessed with, Sarah Imari Walker.

My obsession is not died out perfect. And so everything I like, think, and, and, um, processes through the lens of a Assembly Theory. And so I’m just like now thinking of us as, um, she would say, we are the, I used to say we’re the young species. She would actually say we’re the oldest because we have such a lineage of time.

And it’s just so fascinating to all these things that had to line up to create these brains, to create this society and yeah, we use it to be so insecure we can’t say, I need to dance or I need to, like, what is that?

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: And nature shows us the way. Just give your gold away.

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: Just be what you are.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: Right?

Becky: Yeah. Which is so hard. Mm-hmm. For some people. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s

Christina: so hard, guys.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t find it as hard, but that’s still, oh man. I know.

Becky: I mean, it’s like even to figure out like, who are you? You know? Like the golden rod knows what it is. There’s no question.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not thinking about it. I read somewhere recently or heard somewhere recently that this happens. Something happens when, when you’re around 40 years old, something also an, um, like awakenings or, or realizing that there’s so much more to every day than you’ve been living up until like 38 or 40 has, has certainly been my experience.

Um, I feel like it’s been your experience too. Yes,

Ashley: yes.

Christina: Um, I am interested if you’re comfortable talking about it, like, um, I, so okay, Ashley and I shared a studio.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Um, so there was, we shared a studio two years ago for two years, right? Mm-hmm. And that was a time of

Ashley: four years ago. For two years,

Christina: four years ago.

For two years, yes. Right. That’s true. So we started four years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, and we got. So we got to know each other like daily.

Kind of straight out the gate with that. And you were someone who like walked straight up to me and told me exactly who I was in no fewer words. And it was really, um, breathtaking and a real gift to receive because you held a mirror to me with language that no one had ever done before.

So thank you for that.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Do you remember the words

Ashley: Wholehearted?

Christina: Yeah. Wholehearted was a big one,

Ashley: right? It was Brene Brown. She had, um, several of her books talk about gifts of imperfection and, um. In her studies of vulnerability, she was able to classify people basically in people who live in this wholehearted way and capable of holding many things without judgment. Um, so, with acquaintances or with people that you’re close with, you know, you can just be an open place and that there, there’s a calming presence from them. Right. Which is all of the things that Christina emitted, um, when I first met her, and I was writing these things down because I was in this, this, uh, 40-year-old reflection point. And I can see how that is, um, how that is true for humans, because that does seem to be the point where we’ve settled into our lives. We know how we are as adults, which is the time that we’ve separated from our child selves. Um, so that makes sense. And that’s where I was at 35 meeting you.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: And, and Dec decide taking a very huge leap and risk in even just saying yes to a studio space. Yeah. Because I had a whole life that didn’t accommodate time for a studio space.

So that was, it was a tiptoe into what would be a, I think a transformation and an awakening over the next five years, which I’m still living in, but now have, have embodied it a little more fully.

Christina: You were at that point where on the, on the Brene Brown list, you were like, oh God, one of my core values is beauty.

That’s horrible. And I remember, like you were, you were at the point where that was a shameful thing to know about yourself. Um, and I’ve seen you embrace that about yourself since then, which has been really great. And I think from what I’m witnessing in you, that feels like a much better home in.

Ashley: Right, right.

In like in the golden rod, you know, just accepting what you are. Yeah. Um, and, and being okay with it. And being with it. And that is, um, that was a practice that Becky and I went through in the spring, um, which was one meditative practice that has become part of my hourly ritual is, “can you be with this?”

And that phrase is, is lingering always, um, can you be with this? Can you be with your hurt? Can you be with your fear? Can you be with your joy? Can you be with, um, your desire for beauty in all things? And at first it was there, there’s a track or something that is, that is laid into us and just like, can I ask for what I need before I’m starting a podcast?

Um, that it, it’s unspoken, you know? No, but I can’t be sad, but I can’t be selfish, but I can’t go into a studio because that’s gonna be taking $200 a month from my family also, I don’t have the time . And I think that the answer from you was, but do you have the desire? Why? Why not embrace this part of yourself and see what happens?

And so that was the beginning of a transformative journey. And then in the studio we, we began hashing out a lot of these ideas often and talking about big ideas. And, um, I think our daily presence with one another was opening and then we developed a, um, we, we got some language for that from your cousin, which was “Scenius”.

Christina: Yes. Say it again?

Ashley: “Scenius”.

Becky: “Scenius”

Ashley: “Scenius”.

Christina: Yeah. Like genius with an SC at the beginning.

Becky: Oh

yeah. And what does it mean in this context?

Ashley: It is group, sort of group genius. Yeah. But, but um, if you think about it in history. There’s so many schools of art or thinking or philosophy that develop over time and they happen in pockets. And so it’s because there’s individuals that are then coming together as a collective and bouncing ideas off of each other. And then it’s like the idea has the room to grow.

Christina: Mm

Ashley: mm And to expand because it’s sharing so many minds.

Christina: But it’s not like you’re going together to try to like meet a certain goal as a team.

Yeah. It’s more just like by being around each other routinely you become this sort of like “Scenius” mind.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We should find the person, we’ll put it in the show notes, whoever came up with that term. ‘cause it wasn’t my cousin Pat, he just shared it with me. Yeah. But you’re right. I have forgotten that.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Becky: It is occurring to me more and more how important community is. Mm-hmm. And I, I have tried to do so many things ‘cause I’m an introvert and like, you know, tried to do so many things as an individual and I am feeling the limit of that. And now you’re inspiring me to find, see

Ashley: I think you already have, I think in, in this.

Becky: Oh my God. Well that’s, yes. Yeah.

Ashley: In this podcast you guys are growing this conversation. That’s true. And you’re bringing other people into the conversation with you and they have the opportunity to respond to what you’re talking about.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: And join in the conversation. Yeah. So you are creating your own “Scenius”.

Becky: Thank you for saying that. Yeah. And it is true. Like I grow so much just by having the conversation, revisiting the conversation that I learned from you of like this, you know? And I think that’s what happens when you bring people together. Is there is this kind of like. You say things over and over again, you say it in a different way than I said it.

Mm-hmm. You’ll say it and it’s like, oh yeah. It’s like through the language and the communication and the processing and the filtering, you come to something totally new.

Christina: Mm-hmm. But that’s the great thing about just putting your attention towards something. ‘cause I don’t think we have really any expectation of what this becomes other than just the generative conversations that we have in the moment.

And that’s what I think I’ve learned in, in my time existing is like, don’t, don’t try to go to the end goal just to get to that goal. There’s so much that happens between the point of the beginning and the end where you have all these different avenues of places that you could potentially follow.

And so for you and I starting this thing, it was just kind of like. Wanna do this.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. And we wanna do a good job. So we, you know, we have microphones now, and we, Becky’s learned a lot of the ins and outs of putting these together. Shout out to Becky. And, um, but it’s really, it’s really empowering and you call them magic spells like that.

When we have these conversations, all of a sudden after these conversations, things become real. Yeah. Because we’re putting our energy towards these things. Yes. It’s really amazing.

Ashley: You’re carving out the time. You’re prioritizing it.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: And I think that that’s something in my, in my relationship with you that I see you do very well is to prioritize time for the pieces that you want to grow in your life.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I am good at that. I’ve always been good at that. I’m not sure why. But that is true.

Ashley: And that feels counter-cultural.

Christina: Yeah.

Ashley: Because it’s, it’s, it’s prioritizing things that aren’t really on the, on the normal priority list.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Right.

Ashley: You know,

Becky: because there’s no obvious, like what are you producing from that we’re so programmed that like everyth everything that you do.

So it’s like time is money, time. And you know, time does have a physical property to it, but it’s like, what does product, you said this what, like what redefining what productivity looks like. Mm-hmm. So, um, shifting what value?

Yes. What what is valuable.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: And I believe once you put the time, once you devote your resource of time toward the things that matter to you, the rest of it sort of figures itself out in a way that’s really beautiful. So it, I think it’s a lot. I mean, I’m, I like to trust that it works out. And it usually does, but it’s because I really believe it will. Um, so even just, we’ve been doing this for just a couple of months at this point, and the, I feel so expanded from these conversations and they have expanded and rippled out into other acquaintances even where I might share something and, uh, my kid’s friend’s parent might reach out and say, I’m loving this.

I’m really loving this. And then I get to have a really deep conversation with my kids’ friend’s parent. That’s what I want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don’t wanna just have the little flippant conversations, that’s not me. Yeah. This is so nice.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: And then we get to have Ashley come in and like, we all get to spend time together having these conversations.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah. And they deepen every day in a way that isn’t really happening or hasn’t happened quite as often in my life anyway.

Becky: Mm-hmm. And what was coming up as you were speaking was like, uh, this, this trust, like trusting, I think trust doesn’t come as easily to everyone, you know?

Yeah. Especially like, um, if you grow up, like you we’re, we’re just so formed when we’re little babies. Yeah. And if there’s not a sense of safety there, it is hard to trust later, you know? Mm-hmm. And, but it’s like you show it. That’s why it’s so beautiful. Like whatever, though the universe, uh, assembled itself in you with this lineage so that you could feel trust and safety so easily so you can show it.

No, really. You can. It’s okay.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: Because you have to see something before you can believe it’s possible.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I remember even in high school, my dad saying, what did he say? He said something like, sometimes I’ll have an idea and I’ll just throw it up into the universe. And he’s like a, he’s a very God believing man.

He would use that language now, but throw it up into the universe and then usually it comes back to find me.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So I was guided by that. Yeah.

Becky: And when I experiment with that in my own life, I see that that’s true.

Christina: Yeah.

Becky: But it’s like it takes a little bit of trust to, it takes trust to have a counterbalance to all the voices is what I find.

Ashley: Yeah.

Becky: All the voices that want to tell you you can’t trust and there’s lots, yeah. At least in my head, there’s lots of voices. Um, but it’s like coming back to can I be with that? It’s not, I’m not trying to kick those voices out. I think that would be a futile exercise. Like they’re quieter, you know? Mm-hmm.

Um, but can I be with them and can I listen to what they’re saying and say, yeah, you say this, but when I actually go out and prove it, I learn that I can trust and things will fall into place. So it’s just this, this dance. Mm-hmm. All in my head.

Ashley: Well, what’s coming up for me in that is trust on the outside of yourself, but trust also on the inside of yourself.

Um, I grew up in a very religious household, a, a southern Christian household and part of what I think I took away, probably not in, in a way that Christianity or the church would want to own this part, but a lack of trust in myself. It was always that I needed to trust or rely on something outside of myself, which would be God or a sign or something. Um, and that I needed to not trust myself because I was bad.

And that’s, that stayed, I think that has stayed all the way through and it’s really in the last couple of years that I’ve started to recognize that, um, one of the struggles that I’ve had is, is who am I and what is Ashley?

Um, and we, Becky and I have talked about that in how do you recognize really what is authentically you and what, what is programming? Mm-hmm. Um. Because there’s a lot of things that are programmed into us that we choose. Um, there’s a lot of cultural things that we hold as maybe us, but aren’t really us.

So in, in the last couple of years, I’ve been diving into what is and who is Ashley and how can I learn to, um, trust people around me, but also to trust myself in what is actually me and what is authentically me. And that can, um, one of the practices that I started to, um, to take on in my life was listening hard for that small voice.

Um, and the small voice can say things like, I need to take a pause before I start this podcast because I need to shake it out. Um, but it can also be really wild and weird, which happened for me in the spring in a conversation that you and I had, which was, who am I? How do I know what my voice, my inside, my internal voice is?

And the voice that one crazy thing that I talked about with you was,

Christina: I’m so happy

Ashley: I have this, I’ve had this thought for a long time and you know, maybe this is me, I’m not sure, but it’s, it’s really strange. And you asked, what is what, what is the message? And it was, um, I want to bury myself in my backyard.

And your response was, well have you, what? What’s stopping you?

Christina: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And I had no answer to what was stopping me other than, well, it kind of sounds crazy. Mm-hmm. Um, and then that was your response. Well, that’s how you know that that’s a cultural conditioning and not you, when your, your judgment of the thought is.

That’s crazy.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: So I did, I did that in the spring when we were getting our backyard garden ready. That, that really felt like one of the first steps in. I, I had made a big transition in my life in the spring where I had left my career of graphic design and art direction. Um, and I was kind of in this fumbling place and that was one of the first actions that I took in that time to try to, to try to ground myself in myself.

Um, so my husband took our tractor and dug a big hole in the backyard, and I got in my bathing suit and my youngest son, Jesse who was eight at the time, joined me in the backyard and we. Buried ourselves. Our heads were above ground, but the rest of our body was below the earth and it was a very wild sensation because the earth is heavy.

The ground is heavy. The sun was hot once the sun was shining on our faces. It was the, the dirt was hot. Um, but it was, it, my whole family stood around and, and thought it was the craziest thing they had ever seen. I had my extended family come and join and observe and, and say, say, this is what, how some horror movies start, you know?

Christina: Oh my God. It gives me, it gives hearing you tell this whole story like in person. ‘cause I think I’ve heard it from you on the phone, but. It just like makes my whole body come alive. It’s incredible. Going from like, I think beauty is a core value of mine to like, in the same hand being like, I’m gonna try to take $200 and like, put it towards me every month.

. And my loves and passions and ideas to then planting yourself in the ground with your kid.

.

Christina: That is a spectrum that most people do not cross, and I feel like what an incredible opening for you to then just like, like dig into what it means to not be gainfully employed. You are somebody, you’re like the single person in my community that.

Is doing the thing that many people wanna do and that is one of the things that I was really hoping you would talk about today, because it’s tender. So I didn’t know if you’d want to, ‘ cause I recognize like new things can feel really raw and scary to say. But I would also say that I think talking about it is really important because then you’re making it real.

Ashley: Yeah.

Becky: And giving permission to others.

Christina: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Well that, in leaving a job, which I think that that’s the thing that you’re referring to many people in your life wanna do, not the burying themselves in their backyard.

Becky: Well, I thought that I, well I, not the bearing, but like the doing the crazy, crazy unquote crazy thing, like to do it.

I’m also so impressed that you, like, you didn’t just do it, you invited people. It’s amazing to witness you like that is powerful. Yeah. Cool. I didn’t know that part before, but the whole time you were telling it, I was like, my body was just like we’re writing. Yeah. It’s so cool.

Ashley: Yeah. And for example, so I haven’t had many people in my life also leave their career that isn’t something that I hear unless somebody has left for a health reason.

Or for, um, having a child or caretaking in some, in some aspect. Um, and they’re like, that plays into this part too, because I have three children and I had very short maternity leaves with each one, um, but have worked all the way through in full-time work. and now that they’re becoming teenagers, I actually feel a different, a different need and desire to be with them in this time. And I think what I observed from many of the people in my life was that there was a need and a desire to be with their children when they were born. And in those first few years. Um, and if I’m being totally honest, I was really glad to have some time away when they were, when they were little and have a, a, you know, a purpose and a job and a cup of coffee and some silence in those early years.

But I, I also didn’t choose to leave my job just because of my kiddos. It was that I had hit a, a point of knowing that I was doing something that I no longer wanted to do and when we hit midlife, I think many of us have lots of responsibilities and have many assets that we need to pay for because there’s bills that come in.

Um, and I think a lot of us feel that we have no choice and we have to keep our jobs. Um, and, and I had, I am fortunate to have my partner, my husband, who was willing to figure out his, his side of our financial picture to like kind of like take a little bit more on so that I could take a break. and I had never heard of somebody doing that.

I had a friend at a job that I had worked at a few years back who did do this. And at the time. I thought it was cuckoo bananas and I was really worried about her, and I would often send her jobs.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And she was very graceful and was, and was never, never, um, uh, you know, trying to explain herself.

She didn’t actually feel the need to explain herself. I think she was, she was figuring things out for herself and she made that choice to take a break and to kind of recalibrate herself so that she could find the place that she needed to be. . And her example had been her partner who did the same thing who was in the restaurant industry, um, really needed to take a break from it and took six months, uh, to run and to hike and to be, and that also at the time that I was hearing about all this, sounded very crazy.

Um, but those two humans became mentors in this, in, in doing this. And, and it’s not easy. It’s not an easy choice. It, it comes with, um, consequences, uh, you know, financial, um, having to cut back on things, having to pick up different responsibilities in new ways. But also at 40, um, after having a career for, you know, 20 years saying, wait, what?

Who, what, who am I? This is who I’ve been. This is how people know me. This is. This is how I pace my life. This is my life pace is checking email. All of the time is going over the to-do list of what is upcoming. Trying to figure out how I’m going to piece together the different things and who I need to talk to and what meetings I have.

And when all of that just went away, I crashed.

Christina: Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. Hard. We

Ashley: touched hard. Yeah. Crashed very hard. Um, and my friend who did this told me she crashed very hard in the beginning. And, and I think that’s because there, there’s a lot of things that are unprocessed. Um, that we, when we’re able to stay busy, which that was one of the huge catalysts for this, was our cultural epidemic of busyness.

I was so good at being busy. And I still struggle with being busy. Yeah. Because being busy has this twofold, um, it can be seen as such a good thing you are working so hard. Of course we’ll let you have this time of court. Oh, you’re so, you are so busy, you know, so productive.

You keep going, keep going. We’ll let you just keep going. You got, you got a lot of, um, grace, I guess. You get, you’re important. You’re doing important things. Um, but it was a distraction from, from myself and from some of the work that I needed to do on the inside. And I think it’s easy to just keep in that busyness because it pays you, it, is respected by our culture and our society.

And it’s what we’re familiar with. That’s, that’s, that’s how our bodies are moving. And so some people, when they take a vacation, they feel like it takes a good three or four days to come down and settle, settle into vacation mode and, and turn off that because it’s years and years and years of your brain being in hyper product production mode.

And in the last 10 years for us, in, in corporate work life and in everybody’s lives, but especially in corporate life, you are available 24 7.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: Mm-hmm. You can check an email at any moment, you can get, take a call. You know, if it’s really important, you should be available.

Becky: And that’s applauded. That’s what’s rewarded is how much you’ve sacrificed your own life.

Ashley: Yes, yes. Yeah. And how enthusiastic you are and how you’re giving your whole self to something so that maybe after 20 years you’ve lost yourself and you don’t really know what yourself is any longer. Um, so in, in making this choice, that’s what I’ve been coming home to is, is sitting with a discomfort.

Sitting with the unknown. Um, trying to lean in and listen to the still small voices that, that are pushing me in different directions. And then also another thing that I had set, I had told myself when I decided to exit my career was that I wa I wasn’t going to allow myself to take on any freelance or any work in the first three months because I knew that that would be a slippery slope and that I would just continue probably on the path that, um, could ease us financially. Could continue to keep me a little bit distracted from the work that I was really trying to set out to do. Mm-hmm. Um, and that was, that was a really helpful, um, parameter for myself to set.

Becky: It was so smart to set that up.

Like it’s very intentional.

Ashley: Yeah, yeah.

Becky: Yeah. This crash that you’re talking about happened to me when I quit my job and I was not prepared for it. It took me so long to like, it sent me into depression. So I think I love that you’re speaking to this. ‘cause I think people have a misconception of like, no, you quit your job.

You have all this time.

Ashley: You’re so free.

Becky: Yeah. You’re so free. And it’s a whole, I frame this around meditation as well, where it’s like, you think you’re going to get quiet. Well, when you get quiet or you imagine a body of water, the water gets still all of a sudden everything that was under the surface that that busyness.

Was, you know, rippling the water so you couldn’t see it. It comes to your consciousness.

Christina: Beautiful.

Becky: I’m so grateful that you had mentors and you had support, because if you don’t, it, it’s the same thing with meditation. If you have a lot of things under the surface that have been kind of pushed, pushed down, they do come to the surface.

Mm-hmm. When you get quiet and when you quit your job, that’s like still waters.

Becky: So if you don’t have resources, um, it’s challenging. Mm-hmm. It’s really challenging. It was challenging for me for a lot of times. It brought everything that, that I wasn’t processing by being busy, uh, to the surface. So it’s a journey.

Ashley: It was amazing how many times I would pick up my phone to check my email.

Becky: Yeah.

Ashley: And be like, oh, yeah, yeah. I don’t, nobody’s emailing me anymore. But it’s such a, a muscle memory response to be checking my phone all the time

Becky: I, I keep, uh, quitting Instagram because it’s,

Christina: I do this all the time too.

Becky: Oh my God, it’s so fast. But like when I, the first time I really quit, I started to notice how often I would pick up my phone and have no idea why. So this is my latest obsession. It’s like really bringing to the surface of consciousness how all of these, um, systems that we interact with on a daily basis in our modern world, all these technologies are designed intentionally to take our attention mm-hmm.

To make us pick up the phone without even thinking about it. Mm-hmm. You know, we’re So, because like when you’re, where you’re in a corporate job for 20 years or. Whatever. When you’re steeped in the modern culture and it’s just, you’re just in the water, you don’t notice these things.

You don’t question anything because it’s just like, I’m going with the flow, you know? And there’s so many systems in our world that are designed to keep us that way. And I don’t mean in some nefarious, like some evil person, but like the motivating factors of our society are in capturing attention.

We live in an attention economy, you know, and it keeps us distracted. My point is, the culture of corporate culture of our modern culture is very much distract, distract, distract, distract. And when you pull the plug, it’s like, no more distractions. Sounds wonderful, but like yeah. It’s that process of

stripping all that stuff out and seeing what’s under the surface. Yeah. And then being with it. Yeah. Learning how to be with it. Yeah. It’s hard. That’s what I don’t think people realize. It’s like yeah.

Christina: Or like maybe that’s why they keep themselves so busy so that they don’t have to do the difficult thing.

Becky: Yeah.

Christina: Um, I really like to go into sensory deprivation flow pods and anytime I mention it to people, it’s very frightening to them thinking of going in and being with their thoughts in complete darkness, floating in water that’s exactly the same temperature as your body. So that eventually you lose awareness of where you end and the water begins.

It really does put you in a place of complete nothingness. And, um, there are a lot of people, like most of the time people will be like, Nope, couldn’t do that. Definitely not. Hold on, I gotta check my email. You know?

Becky: For sure.

Christina: Because you go in there and it’s something that I like to build in. Um. I don’t know, probably like every other month or so.

And it’s a beautiful thing because you go in and your brain is like, you know? And eventually, ‘cause you’re in there for about 90 minutes and that can feel like an eternity or it can feel so brief. And eventually the thoughts stop because they have to, there’s no stimulus stimulating that,

Ashley: that’s so interesting.

I was thinking about this actually on the drive in, because I passed a few places that, a couple places actually.

Christina: Funny,

Ashley: that are the sensory deprivation Yeah. Tanks. And I was thinking about you because you’re somebody, you’re the only person I know who’s done this, but I was wondering if you were still doing it.

Yeah. Because I was wondering if cold plunging had replaced that for you and, and in my cycle of that, it was, well, yeah, she probably doesn’t do this anymore because she’s such a, such a sensory person.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: That she, she probably enjoys the the sensory overload in cold plunging of like visual beauty.

Yeah. You know, with the physical aspect of it.

Christina: Hmm.

Ashley: Um, but that’s, so, I’m, that’s

Christina: funny. Yeah. I do do it, but I do it on, um, at this point, cold plunging is a weekly practice, so that’s like a daily emptying or every other day emptying, which does give me a lot of sensory feedback in actually being in nature.

Like, I’m not in a tub in my backyard, I’m in the ocean with you or other people, or you, both of you we’re gonna do that after we record this podcast. Um, and then, yeah. The, the sensory deprivation pods are like four times a year. ‘cause it’s a, it’s a much deeper emptying. I’m, I’m honestly like, I even wanna do a dark retreat.

Have you heard of these things? I think I shared it with you. Only from you. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. You’re welcome. But, but that sounds like you’re welcome. It feels to me like the ultimate, and you go in for three days. They build in an integration day at the end of it, which I think is really smart. And you’re in complete darkness.

Complete darkness. All things are pointing me there lately. Like, I feel like all the things that I see in meditation, all the things, all, all my dreams, these visions, lots of things are happening for me lately. And I wonder what would happen, what could possibly happen in three full days in complete darkness.

I don’t know. It does not scare me. Although I think I would get some flutters ahead of that because that’s a pretty big commitment. Um, and I’m not going into it in some sort of like midlife crisis situation, which I, I think maybe many people might go just to be there and like actually really like sweat it all out, you know?

That’s my metaphor for getting rid of all of your inner things. Um, but, but yeah, I don’t know. I, I’m thinking about it. I don’t, yeah. I like being with myself.

Ashley: So What’s stopping you?

Christina: Yeah. Money right now

Becky: actually, because there’s only only one in the country

Christina: that

Becky: does it.

Christina: There’s one and it’s all the way across the, it’s

Becky: like an Oregon.

Christina: Yeah, it’s an Oregon. Funny enough, it’s exactly where our like very, very close to where we got our dog. Interesting. Which felt like this divine like beam that came across and I wouldn’t normally go cross country to get a dingo but we got him and I dreamt about him too.

It’s funny, uh, yeah. What’s stopping me is the fact that I’ve given myself three months of slowness, which means that there is less actual income coming in from me, but it is a line item on my future budget planning.

Becky: Yes.

Christina: Yeah I really think I would love to do it um, because at this point I’ve finally accepted the fact that, um, I, the cold punching is an important thing for me and my thoughts and my life.

Um, you know, quarterly sensory deprivation pods, um, lots of silence. And I do like maybe two times a year, five day breaks by myself in solitude. Not an actual silent retreat, but it’s just me in a place that’s beautiful being quiet intentionally. Those are things that I’ve now built into the year and for the foreseeable future I’ll continue to do that because they are so rewarding.

But, um, yeah.

Ashley: When did you, when did you start to incorporate those pieces into your life?

Christina: Um, slowly over the last three years probably. Um, uh, building this studio took a lot of bravery out of me. And I think I also was at a point where you were, where I was really good at being busy and I had just brought twins through toddlerhood and that is a lot um, and I think I finally just admitted to myself that I needed to, to be quiet more. ‘cause it was incredibly rewarding and it’s hard for me to discern. If it was because of being busy with work. ‘cause at that point I was working for myself, which you can choose how busy you are. And I didn’t feel beholden to some boss, which helped.

I think probably everything, like everything had filled my to-do list for so long without breaks that I just finally realized, well shoot, I have to build those in for myself and the only person that gives me permission to do that is me, because I don’t have a partner who challenges my requests.

And so anytime I said, I think I need to do this, Andrew, he was like, great, you totally should. I’ll figure it out. And then he realized, I think I want that too. And it’s been so beautiful to watch each other take time to expand alone and then come back together, um, whole. Yeah, that’s been very very important. So, um, yeah. And then, and then the money part of it is always so frictiony because it costs money to go away for five days. It costs other things too to go away for five days and to just claim that as something that’s important to you when not many other people are really doing that is scary.

And at the same time, the more I do it, the more friends are like, what? Tell me what you did. Yeah. What is, what is it? You go, you’re not going on like a girls’ weekend.

You’re not going on a girls’ trip. You’re not going with your family. You’re what? It’s so unfamiliar. .

Counter-cultural to just like tend to yourself

for yourself. I was talking with my brother-in-law recently who um, has a job related to government affairs, which is a very tricky time to have a job like that. And he’s a spiritual man and, um, I had written this thing about solitude after I went and took this break and my sister sent it to him and shared it to him and he took it with him and read it on the beach.

‘cause he has a practice of tending to his own solitude, but he also wants to provide for his family all the time. And like, you know, you have the role of provider and he and I were talking and, um, he booked himself a little three day retreat, which is really, really scary for him. Um, and I was like, dude, you of all people at the time that we find ourselves in the world right now, just as like, just as you would go to get a physical every year at your doctor’s office

you, you should, here’s your prescription.

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: For me

Ashley: Yeah.

Christina: To go and, and check on your silence.

Like, just check on it. Just check on it. Get your silence checkup. And he was like, I’m sorry, can you repeat that please? And I did. And so now I have a little reminder in my phone to just check on him, to check on his silence, which is nothing to add to my plate.

Just a quick little ping.

How’s your silence doing today? I love it.

Christina: Um, it’s scary to be quiet with yourself.

It’s scary to stop the train and discern where you are and actually admit if it doesn’t align with what you’re really wanting. So many people are here.

Ashley: Yeah. But just showing the way, showing something different

helps to give permission and helps people to wrap their minds around what it could actually look like. I think our busyness keeps us from making plans to do those kinds of things for ourself. We can plan the dentist, we can plan the doctor, we can plan the family vacation. But to, to plan for your silence.

That’s not something that anyone so silly is doing, but I know, but it’s so clarifying. It’s so clarifying. And I, I think that there’s microdosing we can do of that, which is, you know, daily practices of journaling or cold plunging or taking a walk. Um, but you, that, that is almost like another thing that’s scheduled into our busy schedule. So it’s, it’s in, in the way that it’s hard to come down in a vacation. Like if you, this is your lifestyle of busyness and you’re, okay, now I’m in my journaling moment. Okay. Now that journaling moment’s over to really, really extend that time in a multiple day, um, gift is, it makes a lot of sense.

It makes a lot of sense for a lot of us who are struggling with, with who we are and how we’re showing up in the world as it is today.

Christina: Mm-hmm. And I think, like, I would just check in with my body after those micro doses that I started weaving in. Like, okay, I can at least take 25 minutes to go cold plunge a couple times a week in the morning.

And it’s okay if I leave people screaming at home, and then I would realize like, whew, my body feels so much better right now. Yeah. And then the more that I microdosed that, the more that I would search for more of it.

And, and just like the feeling that I had in myself was the reason enough to continue looking for it.

The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.

Ashley: Hi, I’m on a jog, um, Sunday morning. Golden. Autumn run and listening to episode five, and I had to pause halfway, first of all, to send you Jesse’s school picture. And second of all, um, what you’re talking about, you guys are talking about binaries of good and bad. Um. Becky, right now you’re going into talking about how you had to address your insecurity and come home to yourself before you could expand to the world.

And all of that is resonating so deeply because I feel like that’s what this year has been for me. It’s been a, pausing on what I have I have built my life to be.

Um, it is truly my favorite podcast to listen to, because you are just, you just talk about everything.

Everything that is, is bouncing around my mind and everything that I’m working on in this year, specifically in a, in a very concentrated way. Um, it’s been a powerful reset to reconnect with the still small voice and to feel love and gratefulness for the essence of me that I don’t think I have ever

really, like, truly embraced. I think that there’s moments of course, like that essence has always been here. It’s not like I’ve been apart from it, but it’s just this deeper, closer, more intimate knowing and recognition of it.

Um, and both of you, have been pivotal characters in the development of this part of my story. And I feel so lucky and, and I have so much love for both of you. Anyway, happy Sunday morning ladies. Thanks for filling my cup and giving me this joyful Sunday morning thoughts to chew on.

Love you both.

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