If you want to go deeper into this week’s conversation, we recommend the following podcast episodes:
On Being: Gordon Hempton - Silence and the Presence of Everything
Time Sensitive: Sara Imari Walker on Making Sense of Life, the Universe, and Ourselves
If you don’t already know the origins of lawns in America, this article from the National Wildlife Foundation provides a pretty concise history.
And as always, if you want to learn more about our other offerings, check out Christina’s and Becky’s websites.
Thank you for listening!
Episode Transcript
Christina: It’s so true that it is a practice. Um, when I feel like I am in this liminal place, where we all go often, I do a conscious recalibration, and I learned this through the process of building the studio that cost way more than I thought it should and would and I had to keep reorienting myself towards beauty and joyfulness rather than fear.
Um, and so I do that. That’s what I do. I go and I make sure that I am spending a lot of extra time in a place of inspiration and beauty. And that is all standing on a really solid ground of trust. Um, yep. Like anytime I would get really scared about building the studio, I would just go out to where it was gonna be.
And I would imagine it there, and I would feel the way that felt to be in it and near it. And now I’m in it. And when I’m in it, I have to consciously accept that feeling and all of the newness that is now coming out of it, even though that newness is asking me to sweep the table.
Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing & Everything At The Same Time. This week we talked about the infinite loops of wisdom and knowledge. The binaries and dualities of good and bad. Silence and noise. Cycles of evolution and revolution, and expanding and contracting. I hope you enjoy.
So this is our first episode that we’re recording after we’re out in the world. How does that live in you?
Does it shape how you’re showing up today at all?
Christina: Oh, that’s a good, that’s a good way to think about it. You know, I consciously, try not to show up differently on purpose. Actually, what I did today that I think I’m gonna, um, start doing before every podcast recording we do is I do one of your meditation so I clear my energy.
I’m not even trying to pitch this as like everybody, here’s the secret on the street. Go do Becky’s classes, but really. You know, I, like 25 minutes ago, I sat down on my couch and I just listened to your voice, guide me through this thing, even though at this point now I can kind of just do it on my own,
but it’s nice to not, it’s nice to not have to do it on my own sometimes and I can just, yeah, I did it with Paulo on the couch. He sit curled up right next to me and I think I’m
Becky: Do you notice a difference with, in him when you’re meditating? Does he, his demeanor or energy level change at all?
Christina: Um, not really.
He was, I did notice. Um, he was sleeping in the kitchen and I went in and started meditating on the couch and 10 minutes into it, he came in and laid down next to me. So, uh, that could be, but it wasn’t like I started when he was a rip roaring puppy and then he all of a sudden was like, Zen Master Paulo.
Becky: Totally, totally. I’m curious like the, the older he gets and the more you do, ‘cause Jasper loves to meditate with us. If we say, “okay, we’re gonna meditate”. Like he, he has to curl up in our legs. Like, I have to have my legs in like lotus position and he has to, I don’t know if it’s Lotus, I think it’s butterfly.
My legs cannot do Lotus, but he wants to be in a nest. Yeah. And he loves it. It’s so, it’s interesting.
Christina: I think so too. I think once, once Paulo is not a puppy anymore, I bet he will. Um, and, and also once I have the routine of it, he’s not seeing me do the routine in the same place at the same time every time.
Yeah. Um, yeah, so I, so, so this is out in the world now. There’s been really positive feedback. Um, and it’s, I think it’s just landing the way that we want it to land in that we are just two normal people having authentic, layered, deep conversations that are real and human.
And we’re not trying to pretend like we are something that we aren’t, which I know is really important to both of us.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and well, I also just love it because I feel like if it, it, it could be an in for a deeper conversation with me if it’s someone who maybe didn’t think about that, you know.
Before.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. What about you?
Becky: I, so first of all, I agree with you, like, I also used my tools, I started using this word energetic hygiene because it reminds me that it’s, it’s a regular thing. It’s you, you take a shower, you do your you know, your physical hygiene, you do your energetic hygiene as well.
And it just sets the, the vibration of how I’m, I am showing up right now. So so yes, I did that as well. Um. Once it’s out in the world, what I noticed was, I feel like a greater sense of responsibility, but in a very light way.
You know, just like people are hearing it, and I, so it’s making it like inspiring me to show up as the most vulnerable and authentic version of myself that I can hold at this time. It’s not like I am in full presence, full vulnerability a hundred percent of the time.
You know, you may say something that kind of triggers me or, or silence could trigger me, and, you know. So, but I am, it’s, it’s inspiring me to go deeper into my own practice so that I can show up in the most vulnerable, authentic version of myself.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
I think even on a little podcast like this, where we’re just sort of having a conversation together, and that’s what we expect of it, is that you and I just have a conversation that lands with each of us and then we carry that in through our days.
Anything beyond that is bonus, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. And so, but even that, like, I wanna show up for you in a way where I’m fully present. Um, and it really is kind of funny. You just never know where it goes. Like just this morning. A friend of mine from Boston Days when I was in college, we’ve kept in touch and she now lives on the West coast and, um, she’s going through a hard time in her life because she, uh, was a part of the fires in California.
In Hollywood. Mm-hmm. She lived in Pasadena. Pasadena was where I think it was the worst. But her, her house was one of the ones that stayed and did not burn down, but is in a really awful shape. Um, since then. Anyway, we’ve kept in touch via noticing light a lot that I, she’s told me like that really helps expand life for her.
Um, and then today, just this morning, she said. I’m having a really rough time because obviously things are hard.
Christina: Uh, she’s very displaced and work is weird and all of that. And she said, but you remind me to sometimes have a dance party in my living room by myself because it’s just me, you know, tooling around in my studio and that’s a part of my practice is just singing or dancing or doing something.
And, um, and she said, thanks for reminding me of that. And I just in, in my studio dancing around and sometimes I think, why not share this?
Christina: Not for someone to say, wow, Christina, you’re such a good dancer. Teach me what you know, but more just like, why not?
Christina: My body functions, I have legs that can move and hold me, and I’m gonna go and move my body.
And like, yes. It’s nice. It’s just nice all to say that it’s really nice to just show up in who you are.
Christina: And you just don’t know where that ripples away, you know?
Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. And what’s so natural for you is to share the light and the joy and, you know
Christina: Yes, yes, that’s true.
Becky: So, I was just reflecting the other day. I was doing a rewatch of this show, Orphan Black. It’s a great show. It’s about clones, but acting is in incredible. It’s, it’s female forward.
The, the representation that they have on that show is really amazing. Um, so that’s my plug for Orphan Black. This is also my like, little opportunity to bring in a tiny bit of pop culture. So the last episode, so they’ve gone through all this crazy stuff and there’s all these clones, which they say they’re sisters and they’re sitting around the fireplace and one of the, or the fire pit outside.
And one of ‘em who was always the strongest and kind of the leader was saying “I carry so many mistakes.” Like she was holding all this shame for all the mistakes and not a single one of them tried to fix it, tried to make it better. They then showed their shame. They said, you know, she was having shame around being a bad mom, and one of her sisters was like, I just yelled at my kid and, you know.
Yeah. But it, what it was coming up for me is like you sharing your dancing and this joy and reminding people like, I have joy inside too, even when I’m going through hard times. And I think it’s really powerful when we show up and share our, our shame and share our, our pain, it just gives this permission for other people to feel, not feel alone.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, even in motherhood, for example, like I, this is not something that I share with people I don’t know on the internet. So I have like a close friends list, but I love sharing the real guts of parenting because I don’t see other people doing that. So like one of my twins just pooped in the bath.
here’s a quick picture of that, and then the other one is grossed out because she has to sit next to it. And then also in the same moment, someone’s shouting at me because they’re also like, on the toilet, also poop in there too. They’re just, it’s just so messy. Um, and 20 minutes later I can still have a solo dance party to shake it off.
Becky: Yeah. You know? Absolutely. Yeah.
Christina: Um, yeah, so again, I, I think it’s, I think I do have this, this like natural tendency to share like more of the buoyant qualities of life, but there’s something, um. To appreciate about the, the rawness and the richness of the stuff that is harder to share. Yeah. And to hold it all in the same hand.
Becky: To hold it all in the same hand. Yep. And I think it’s really beautiful that, you know, you naturally orient towards light and, and that’s, you know, recognizes that’s what you’re meant to share. And I am discovering, you know, that I naturally kind of lean into the, the, the suffering and the darkness. And that’s what I am meant to help other people hold, you know, and we need it all.
So it comes back to this theme we’ve talked about so many times, is everyone just tapping into what feels most authentic to them. And that’s what the world needs.
Christina: That is what the world needs.
Becky: Yeah. I, I’m noticing what’s alive for me, especially the last couple days, maybe weeks. So I’m really sitting in
this desire to embody stepping outside of the binary of good and bad.
Yes.
And I’ve known that, like I am, I identify as non-binary, like it’s very much has lived in my consciousness, in my head for so long, but it, I’m really sitting with what does it feel like to embody that in my day to day? That’s very present for me.
And it’s very interesting to, to recognize like, oh, this is very present for me. And then I notice that’s kind of the lens I’m looking at everything right now. Do you experience that where if, if like a new message or a new awareness is coming through, that’s kind of the lens on which you see everything?
Christina: Definitely. Definitely. Even in embracing my natural tendency to orient towards light, which to be honest, was like the scariest thing I could realize about myself. Weird. Weirdly had to. Why do you think it was so hard? I don’t know. Part of me now wonders if like to, to talk to people who are younger and are discovering who they are.
I wonder if the thing that you feel most insecure about is actually what you are, really what you are in your core. Hmm. Because maybe you resist the thing that is so quietly present in you.
Hmm.
I wonder that
Becky: maybe ‘cause it
feels so tender. Like it feels so, so real, so real and raw and it’s like, I would imagine you’d
maybe do some protecting around. Yeah. Because it’s like if you get rejected for this thing that feels so essential to you, it might feel crushing.
Christina: Yeah, sure. Exactly. Like if I finally acknowledge the thing that is really me as being really me and I openly lead my life from that central place, I am unguarded, right?
Mm-hmm. So for me, I don’t actually really have a lot of guardrails up in myself. Um, so once I realize like, well that’s silly, Christina, why are you shying away from that? That’s really kind of all it took was, oh, that’s silly. Okay. So now I step forward in this vibrant, bright self. For me, I also had to make sure that it wouldn’t harm others
but, uh, I kind of think sometimes when you are leading from a very center place, harming others is also not your responsibility because that’s coming from inside of them somehow.
Becky: Yeah. Well I think you, I think you can be, I think there’s a way to be empathetic to others without taking on the responsibility of their feelings.
Christina: Yes. Yeah. And so I think that’s, that’s where I, that’s where I was for sure. Yeah. Um, but yeah, for me, for you saying that you, by realizing something about yourself, then that’s sort of the lens. Or maybe not even realize, realizing something about yourself, but having a realization that’s the lens that then you see the world through.
Becky: Yeah, and it, it constantly fluctuates. So what’s what the other thing that I’m really sitting with lately is the thing that I text you around this interplay between wisdom and knowledge and the cyclical interplay.
Christina: Wait, can you say what you texted me because it blew my mind. Do you remember that was Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because a, that was a realization.
Becky: Yeah. This was a text and it, it, okay. So it came through me and then I’ve been sitting with it. Um, so I think what I text you was, uh, knowledge comes through the moves through the mind, and wisdom goes through the body, and they’re interconnected and cyclical, and both are necessary.
So I’ve been sitting with it more and the image that, that I can’t get away, uh, get away from. And the image that’s so clear to me is the Infinity Sig symbol. Um, so and so I’m in the knowledge part, right? I’ve, I’ve gotten this message. And so imagine you, you get a message or you go out and learn something, so you expand out into this loop of knowledge, so you’re gaining knowledge and then you come back.
So imagine I’ll put an image in the show notes or something, or if you’re on YouTube, you can trace my finger as I, yeah. So you go out through the mind to expand your awareness and your knowledge, and then you come back to, so imagine the point of a infinity to emptiness. Like it’s tying back to what we were talking about before around emptiness.
So you go and gain this knowledge, and then you empty, and then you come into the body into. Embodying that, learning how to integrate this new knowledge into your being and to how you move through the world into your, your thoughts, your beliefs, and your actions. And then you come back to emptiness again, and you empty and you go out back into the world and you gain more knowledge and it’s cyclical.
And I imagine it that every time you’re going out into knowledge, you’re expanding beyond yourself. So you start with—well, you start wherever you are—but I just imagine what life is asking of us is this ever-expanding growth of wisdom and knowledge. And so you’re going out wider and wider, and then with wisdom, you’re going in deeper and deeper into yourself.
And so. You need both because if you stay with wisdom, you run the risk of staying too much informed of your own experience and not bringing in the knowledge of what’s the experience of people who aren’t like me. Hmm. You know? And you run the risk of thinking, I have this wisdom and thinking it’s universal wisdom and missing out on the knowledge of ex, of the experiences of other people and other beings, right?
Mm-hmm. So whether you’re expanding into nature or you’re interested in people, but so I just imagine this like ever expanding infinity symbols expanding out towards, we’ll call it source. Yeah. Source, which is where there is no separation, which I think is something. We deeply know that of that is true, but we have to gain more knowledge.
We have to integrate it into our being. So we’re living that experience of source. So it’s like you’re constantly expanding. So
Christina: you hadn’t mentioned the emptiness point when you just said that. Like, my eyes welled up with tears and funnily enough, my mouth watered, which was weird, but we’ll take whatever that means. Um, I’m hungry for that, for that empty buffer.
Becky: That was new. That was from sitting with it and, and doing the editing of the podcast and, you know, taking in new knowledge.
Like even coming back to listening to our old conversations with new, with emptiness, with a beginner’s mind.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think when you had told me about that transmission that came through you, that time, that wisdom, that knowledge is in the mind and wisdom is in the body. And you were saying, again, Christina, you and I are mirrors because you, Becky, have.
Knowledge, you’re in a much more of a place of knowledge. And I was coming from a place of more embodied wisdom that didn’t have the knowledge part, and I’m now learning the knowledge part from you. And, and it’s like a, it’s like a back and forth. Um, yeah, it’s,
Becky: And you teach me how to embody the things that I’ve known and, and through wisdom and the more I’ve been sitting with it.
Um, and again, ‘cause of the other major thing that I’m sitting with right now is stepping out of that binary. I think there’s pro probably lots of different cycles. Like, I don’t think it’s, you know, you have plenty of places in your life, I’m sure, where you have knowledge that you’re Oh yeah. Moving into wisdom, you know, so it’s, I imagine like maybe there’s an overarching cycle for our life and then there’s all these little fractals of cycles that we’re moving through.
Um. Yeah.
Christina: But I think, uh, to go back to the point of being real and authentic and in the home of yourself, wherever you are at any given point, um, you can meet that wisdom truthfully. And even just you saying, you acknowledging that I am coming from a place of wisdom and showing you how to use your knowledge to embody it, that’s not a good or bad thing.
Mm-hmm. To take the good or bad away from it has been incredibly, um, helpful for me because I might’ve thought having light is good mm-hmm. And not is bad. Or being, um, so open is selfish and being closed is not, you know, it’s so. It’s such a relief to take away the good and bad of things. Yeah. ‘cause then you’re put in a place of noticing.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Becky: And allowing. So, we all have preferences, and so what really kind of illuminated this for me is the episode, the on being episode that you just sent me, that we both just re-listened to around silence, which was amazing.
And it had so many takeaways and so much wisdom and knowledge. Um. And because I’ve been sitting with these lenses, some things jumped out at me when I was listening to him. So he was describing, uh, so his name is Gordon Hemp. I also wrote down notes this time because I’m like, that’s good. I was tired of forgetting people’s names and whatever.
Anyway, so he was talking about how he’s traveled the globe and he’s recorded all these sounds everywhere and he clearly loves sound and he loves nature. But what really struck me is he was talking about near the equator and he played the sound and he’s like, the sun is so intense there, and the sound is so intense.
And he said, um. He said, it’s too much action for his ears. It’s too intense for his ears. And then he said, you know, then he moved up to Central America and described that, and then he went, moved up to the, the more temperate area areas, which he really loves. And he called it there you find poetry of space.
Mm-hmm. And that’s beautiful. He’s, you know, he loved, he find, found something he loves and he clearly, and he’s so passionate about protecting those spaces that he loves, which is beautiful. But since I had this lens of wanting to step out of this paradigm of good and bad, it really struck me of, well, what if you live near the equator?
Like if, you know the, if you grew up near the equator or your ancestors grew up near the, the equator. They were shaped and formed by that vibration, by those sounds. And so it makes perfect sense that, you know, he’s a white man and his ancestors did not grow up around those sounds. So it would make sense that the sound that formed his lineage, lineage would feel good for him.
Amazing. But what I noticed because I was really attuned to this, is when you say, this is good, this is poetry and this is too much or too intense, and you start to generalize that or universalize that, that’s where we get into these cultures of hierarchy of one culture being good and one being too much.
I, you know, this is not about Gordon this, first of all, this talk was happened in 2012, and I’m not in dialogue with him. So I’m not trying to place a meaning on him or his thoughts and behavior. This is just what I’m noticing as I start to really embody stepping out of that binary of good and bad. You know?
Or even like, it was funny ‘cause he talks about, you know, there’s so much noise in the modern world, right? But he loves trains, he loves the sound of trains. And Krista Tippet kind of pushed him on this a little bit too, and he, he said something like, he doesn’t have to argue his contradictions, which, yeah, you don’t, we’re full of contradictions.
What I notice though, is. He began to justify his preference of why a train is somehow different than a, a car or whatever. It’s like, no, that’s just your preference, you know? Yeah. But, but I think because we are so wired for belonging, um, that when we live in this binary of good and bad, I think it does drive us to justify our preferences because we want people to agree with us so that they think we are good.
And this preference is good because once you introduce the binary of good and bad, that means whatever I think is good, the opposite is bad.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And I just think, I just, you can see it in history how all those, uh. Preferences have turned into these cultural hierarchies, which have led to justification for horrible, horrible oppression.
Christina: yes. How do we get out of good and bad?
Hmm.
Like, because I hear what you’re saying. I didn’t pick up on those things when I was listening to it. ‘cause even part of me while you were just talking was thinking like, he’s not even saying that as an an oppressor. He’s just saying that as a person who’s noticing that, like it feels very disarming for him to say, that’s too loud for my ears.
So I don’t, but, but I understand where your thought process is going. And then I want, I think. Like, how do we, how do we steer away from that? More conversations like this, you know?
Becky: Well, and first of all, I will say, this is my lens, right? Yes. I am not saying this is a universal lens. I am just noticing for me, um, it’s becoming important to step out of this, this binary.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: And so I would say identify that we all have pre I think it, it’s a practice of allowing and accepting, you know? And so I, I just think we get into trouble when we try to make our preferences the universal good. Sure. You know, whatever I like is universally the good thing in the world, you know?
Right. And I’m, and again, I meant like this man, I don’t think he was. I think it’s so subtle. Mm-hmm. But I think language is really important. And, and I think we’re, I think especially as a white person in, since I am in the dominant culture mm-hmm. I personally feel a responsibility to push myself and, and, and notice where these cultural hierarchies show up in my thoughts.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: Beliefs and language. Uh, but it’s a practice. Yeah. It’s a practice of noticing.
Christina: It is a practice. Maybe that’s, maybe that’s the answer is just more of us practicing this, which I think is already happening. Yes. Um, absolutely. Even, even in this is making me think of a couple of things. So. Today, this is a, this is a real, maybe seeming tangent, but, but not today is picture day at elementary school.
In my town, my children were not made to dress in a certain way. Wait, what do you mean by that? Picture day is a big deal for a lot of families where like you, yeah, so like you must wear your most, your best, I will say outfit. Make sure that your hair is nice. Like, oh, picture day is tomorrow. Picture day, picture day, picture day.
Because for one day every year everyone comes looking as dishonest as possible to, to frame what that year represents in a photograph. So, you know, people’s hair, they have bow ties, it still exists.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and. I think it’s kind of, kind of nuts because why? So I don’t, in our family we choose not to make it a big deal.
So I also don’t want my kids to show up and not realize it’s picture day. So I’ll say it’s picture day, you know, it’s coming. Jack this morning decided he might wear jeans and then decided not to, but then we get out to the bus stop and there are all of these kids whose parents said they had a really tough morning ‘cause they spent the whole time practicing smiling.
Mm-hmm.
And um, and that’s what they did. And they had specific curls in their hair. And, and you know,
I, um, maybe it’s a little act of stepping away from the binary of good and bad by letting, letting my children not have to make this such a big deal because then like there’s so much pressure on what they look like in this, or even talking about language again, I’m very conscious to talk about the way that I look at myself in front of my children.
I’m very conscious of the way that, like, if, if one of the girls comes down and is wearing this very, um, elaborate and princess like outfit, ensemble, um, instead of to say, oh, you are so beautiful, which equals good.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And the opposing force is ugly. Right? Exactly. Yeah. I say, you must feel fancy or something.
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Or, or even like, you know, their grandmother got, um one of the girls, they went to a little store and she got them something and she decided to get makeup. Mm-hmm. Which I have not bought for them and, um, and so I said, oh, that’s so fancy. You must feel so fancy. Look at that fancy color.
Because fancy to me isn’t necessarily good or bad, it’s just fancy.
Becky: Yeah. Um, I love that. Yeah. I mean, tho tho those two, those examples that you’re giving to me are clear examples of stepping out of this binary of good and bad. You know, who decided that wearing a bow tie was good, you know? Yeah. And, and attractive.
And, and like. If someone genuinely loves wearing a bow tie, wonderful. That’s a preference. But the mm-hmm. You’re pointing to exactly that. Where is all this pressure that the parents are feeling to make their child look a certain way? Yeah. When you step out of the binary of good and bad, you can, you can question those things exactly what you’re doing and say, well, this isn’t important to me.
Mm-hmm. And so it’s, yeah.
Christina: Yeah. No, I was gonna say, it’s, it’s also a strange thing because then you’re still in a society where many, most people aren’t, uh, making picture day a tiny deal like we are. So, you know, my kids walked out and it was like, oh, picture day. What are you guys wearing? What are you doing?
And, you know, there were like four other kids out there and, and then Lucy one of the twins kind of looked at me and said, uh, actually mom, I think, I think I do I think, can you make me a ponytail with a braid in it? And I was just crushed. I was like, who cares what your hair looks like? But yes, I will give you a ponytail with a braid in it.
So I ran in and Jack wanted me to button his top button for him because people were putting emphasis. It’s like this funny balance of like, listen man, I’m your parent, which doesn’t mean that I’m the end all be all, but just so you know, it doesn’t matter to us. Mm-hmm. Nothing about your existence changes based on the way that you look to us right now.
And at the same time it does to you because everyone around you is saying that that’s something that they’re looking at, but you just kind of do the best you can and then trust that they’ll come home to themselves.
Becky: Yeah. Because they’re not in a vacuum. You know? You, and that’s why it’s not, it’s not a binary thing of your, you know, out of the binary of good and bad, or you’re in it, you know, it’s, it is a practice and yeah.
Um, and it, I, I would say this is a very, like, there is a strong default good culture in, in any culture, right? Mm-hmm. In not just in, not just here. Um, so I think it’s revolutionary and evolutionary to start questioning that, of like, where do these things come from? And that’s where was, see back to the, the infinity loop of, of knowledge.
So I’m looking out at my lawn, right? Mm-hmm. The lawn. That Cause you know how much carbon we put in the air and how much greenhouse gas emissions come from lawns, maintaining lawns. Do you know the origin of lawns?
Christina: I do.
Becky: Yeah. So that’s knowledge, right? But I still mow my lawn. So that’s moving into, it’s a process.
Mm-hmm. I do less and less of my lawn every, every year we make the meadow bigger. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s not a binary, it’s a practice and like there’s, there’s plenty of things that you may have knowledge of, but to actually integrate it into your thoughts, beliefs, and actions takes time because you are butted up against the, I’m coming back to noise.
Like in that episode, he talks about silence isn’t the absence of sound, it’s the absence of noise. You know, so when you go out into the world, it’s very noisy with opinions. And, um, tying it back to the energetic hygiene, there’s a lot of frequencies that you’re hit with every day. So you can do your energetic hygiene to prepare yourself the best you can and put up some boundaries so they don’t just rush in without your permission, but it’s a process because it’s, you’re very much swimming against the current.
When you start asking questions like, is there a universal good and bad? Or has that been helpful? Like, the question I’m starting to ask myself is not, is this good or is this bad, or is this right or is it wrong? I’m starting to ask myself, does this expand my capacity for love, either for myself or the world?
Does it reduce suffering either in me or in the world that I’m interconnected to? Like that to me is a better question than, is this good or bad? And I’m fine with love being universal, you know?
Christina: Mm-hmm. But true or false, first, did you have to find a home in yourself so that you can meet your world from an authentic place?
Like was that the work that you had to do first and then you’re able to have those two questions be the barometer for your experiences day to day?
Becky: Absolutely because I was so insecure, right? I felt so insecure, and when, when I felt insecure, the noise of the world was so much louder. Yeah. And I was constantly trying to figure out how to be good, because when you
when you feel like you don’t belong or when you feel, when you don’t feel secure in yourself, as I didn’t, then you’re not listening internally. You’re just looking externally to try to figure out what is good, what is right, and then I’ll just take that on. I’ll just, I’ll become that. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I had to get to a place where I could be in the noise and be the wave of Becky.
The wave of Becky. Yeah. Yes.
Christina: Yes. I think that’s, I think that is what, um, uh, maybe what our generation is realizing is a worthwhile path. You know, my parents as loving and supportive as they are still sometimes will say your generation kind of overanalyzes things a little bit. Not even necessarily. I mean, I guess there’s like a twinge of like, that’s bad, but I don’t really feel that strongly from them.
But that’s just an observation. They think, you know, you guys overanalyze things too much. But I don’t know if I agree with that because I think a lot can be learned if you can look inward, analyze things a little bit, track things and patterns and histories so that you can come out, um, into the noise as a wave of you.
Yeah, because everybody has a different, a different upbringing. I’m even thinking about, um, that other podcast that I sent you from time Sensitive with that, um, physicist and she, we, we should link both of those in the show notes ‘cause they’re both so good. So good. Yeah. Um, and she. Is, I mean, you can maybe talk more about that or we don’t even have to.
But basically she’s someone who, who could change the way that we understand physics by what she is thinking about time. And her whole theory is called the Assembly Theory. And, um, I forget what her name is. Something, uh,
yeah. Um, we’ll link it. But she was talking about, yeah. Okay. So she was even talking about, the biggest takeaway I had without having to explain the whole podcast is that she’s someone who could completely shift the way that we think about physics.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Christina: It’s a really big deal.
Becky: Huge. Yeah.
Christina: Huge. Um. And she as someone who had a, had a hairdresser father went to a state school and had a mom who loved antiques and they lived in an old house. So like she is a perfect shining example of somebody who took her circumstances and followed her distinct path, which ended up leading her to these amazing opportunities.
But she just was who she was. Mm-hmm. Just like she was the wave of, of Sarah Imari Walker. Mm-hmm. And, um, I, I just, I just keep coming back to that. That’s something that’s really alive in me the last two or three years is just, I don’t, I’m not supposed to be anybody other than myself. No, neither are you.
No. And if you and I can come at this world as who we are, and I, I know that I’ve said this on this podcast before and I will say it again and again because it’s just something that’s so. It’s so true. Um, and I don’t think it can be said too many times because maybe it will come at people in a different way, you know, or hit.
It’s like, that’s our job. That’s our job. And a lot of times in family structures or cultural structures, that’s not allowed.
Becky: Yeah. Well, the other thing that’s really, that I’m sitting with lately as I’m embody, embodying, um, this practice of stepping out of good and bad is it’s really hitting me how we are all mirrors of one another.
So, and the, the reason I, I point to this is the reason I knew that stepping out of the binary of good and bad was really important for me right now is I kept noticing when someone else would be judging someone else as wrong or bad, or just that judgment. I felt icky, I felt discomfort in my body. And the old version of me would’ve then judged that person for judging.
You know, but I’ve now had enough practice and enough, you know, tools to sit with that. And I’m like, oh, they are touching something within me and they’re illuminating, they’re reflecting back to me something that I am ready to shift and change. And so that’s become an a barometer is if I’m upset with something, if something feels icky or uncomfortable out there, that is a sign for me to look inward.
And the reason I say that in relation to what you’re saying about families not allowing, it’s like anytime you change that shows everyone around you that change is possible.
Yeah.
And that’s really uncomfortable for people for a couple reasons. One, the brain, the, the tribal brain likes familiarity.
So they want Christina and Becky to be the same version that they know the brain does. You know, not on a conscious level and you’re serving up a mirror that says you can change, you can be a, your authentic self as well. Yeah. And for a lot of people getting to that that authentic self.
Well this is my experience and from people I talk to and from what’s in the media, I think this is a very common, I think you are the rare bird. I think a lot of people really. To get to that authentic place. There’s a lot of stripping away and there’s a lot of looking at like if you’re not your authentic self, something made you put on a mask or something made you betray yourself.
And whether it’s one big thing or a couple big things, or whether it’s a thousand tiny paper cuts of like picture day and your mom making you put on a bow tie when maybe you wanted to wear a dress or ma made you wear a dress when you wanted to wear a bow tie, well-meaning parent, you know, the, everyone’s doing the best they can, but like that’s the kind of a thousand little cuts that I think make us abandon or lose touch with that authentic self.
And oh, the other thing that was coming up when you mentioned your mom is, um. So we are kind of in that generation where we knew the analog world, but we were introduced to the technology and the internet fairly early. But you think of generations below us. Mm-hmm. They grew up with the knowledge of the entire world at their fingertips.
So yeah, of course they’re an like analyzing, noticing, looking into these cultural patterns because they have access to it. Mm-hmm. So for our parents, that was just like, that wasn’t spoken of. That wasn’t, they grew up with textbooks that were altered and there was propaganda, and to actually seek out more accurate representations of culture was harder.
But this generation, they have all that knowledge at their fingertips. So of course they’re going to question it and. And I love it also.
Christina: No, me too. Me too. And I, I think about it sometimes from like a pulled back lens of, um, of evolving humanity. You know, we, yes, I suppose we analyze more than other generations do, but could that potentially be an evolution of our species, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. Why not? We’re, we’re becoming, you know, we, there’s that whole saying that we see in a day what our grandparents generation saw in a year. Yeah. So how can our brains not change?
Yeah. So like they’re teaching social emotional learning in elementary school now where that was never a thing that could probably seem very silly to people in older generations but how else are we supposed to move forward or cope with the information that we are seeing? Then just be able to control and regulate our own nervous systems while we also learn how to become friends to others. I mean this, I went and volunteered to teach, um, to help out with the high school art class two years ago and I was completely blown away with how, um. Grounded and, like fully themselves these kids were, I mean like 16 year olds and 17 year olds in this art class granted, art is kind of like a safe place, but I was this stranger that just kind of came in and they were like talking openly about their neurodivergence and not apologizing for anything.
Not a good or bad thing. They were just like, oh yeah, I have so and so, or like, this is what I experienced, this is how I learned best. Mm-hmm. And it was just like, I was like, our future is, is fine. These people are, these people are so solid already. You know,
Becky: As, as long as we don’t blow up the world before these people can, I hope Yeah.
Be in charge. I agree with you that the, the future is, is bright. Yep. Yeah. I was actually curious if the, if Sarah, if the, the person in that, that podcast was neurodivergent, the way she was putting together, um, all these, all these patterns and pulling from all these different areas and like, so this is another place of, of noticing and, and again, maybe it’s my lens ‘cause I do identify as neurodivergent, like, but like the language, there’s a neurotypical brain and a neurodivergent brain, right?
Mm-hmm. So those, it’s little things like that where, where I think the more we question what makes this typical, you know, what, why are we saying this is typical? First of all I don’t know that neurodivergence is a new thing. Maybe we’re just talking about it more openly and studying it more. Mm-hmm. It’s like the, the same thing with the prevalence of autism and they like it.
It’s not that it’s a lot more prevalent, it’s, we’re actually studying it more and, oh yeah, maybe we should actually include women and girls in our data set instead of just studying white boys. You know? So it’s like, um,
Christina: but I think the word typical is, it even holds the aspiration of not being good. Like, I don’t know that typical, I think, I think typical was a conscious choice.
At least that’s my observation is like,
Becky: I think a lot of people wanna be typical. I think a lot of people might want to be normal.
Christina: Yes. Yes, I agree with you. But, but, but Ty, wasn’t it something else? Like, wasn’t there another word? Um. Why do I think that that typical is like the better of the options that were on the table?
Oh, maybe I’m have to pick on that.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: Maybe
Becky: not. But even still, and I’m not saying it’s like nefarious or ba or like someone’s trying to, you’re, you’re probably right, it probably is a, a, an advancement or a sense, but I, I just like, we, there is a default culture in this country and whenever you have a default culture then everyone else who’s different than that.
Mm-hmm. Which I bet is a lot more people than the minority. There’s just a lot more people who are putting on masks and trying to just fit in because again, we want, we are literally wired for belonging.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: So when you have a default culture. Then you create these hierarchies and it’s like, where are you in that hierarchy of the ideal?
Mm-hmm. You know?
Christina: Yeah. Yes, yes. I see what you mean. And I still come back to these kids who are growing up with TikTok, and they found a community of people that were also like them. So they’re able to be neurodivergent, not typical, not normal, and um, still feel like they belong because there are other people openly sharing their experience, again, from an authentic place.
Yep. Where you can sense that. And, um, and it’s powerful.
Becky: It’s very powerful. I mean, there’s, there’s a reason why, uh, there’s a reason why they wanna shut it down. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And take control of it. Yeah. It’s so powerful because once you start questioning things like, I mean, my lens, I also think of, you know, the, um, the non-binary and the trans community and like what they mirror back to us.
Once you start questioning those, those binaries, it expands out and you start questioning how we do everything. And that’s, that’s exciting to me because then we’re, we can, it’s just so limiting when you say this is good and this is right and everything else is bad and wrong. It’s like you don’t have emptiness and then you won’t have things like assembly theory because she’s pulling together new ways of actually asking these questions.
Christina: She’s also, she openly said that her, this was like my favorite line that she said when she was talking with Spencer Bailey about her method. She didn’t say my method. She said, my creative practice starts with intuition. Yes. Which was just like, wow, what a permission slip to just be her to say that. Which honestly inspires me to continue this podcast because if some one human being can listen to like whatever permission slip I might offer to them, that is work well done.
You know?
Becky: Absolutely. It’s belonging. You’re expanding safe circles of belonging. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Which is so important.
Christina: But yeah, if we can to, to take. Binary is a way or to, to approach life in a non-binary way means that then we can have physicists who find questions to answer by listening to their intuition.
Mm-hmm. Yes. Please sign me, please.
Becky: Yes. Up please. Yes, please. I mean, look at nature. There’s no good way to be in nature. There’s so much diversity, like you just lose out on the opportunity for so much beauty and diversity and not everything that emerges is going to, um, sound good or feel good to everyone, but there are 8 billion people on this planet.
There’s going to be belonging. You’re going to find circles of belonging the more we’re brave enough to just show up as our authentic self, instead of trying to conform to this tiny, narrow. Racist, homophobic, like, misogynistic view of what is good. It frees us all. Yeah,
Christina: it really does. And it is, it is scary to people who want power to think about people believing themselves and, and entering their lives from a place of self-trust and not from a place of fear.
Becky: Yep. Yeah. So you wanna, if, if people are listening and looking for a way to fight back or take a stand against those in power who are trying to do awful things in this country right now, be your authentic self. Be yourself. Yes. Be yourself. And that is a radical act.
Christina: Yes. And also tend to yourself, this is something like, this is something that I, um.
Talk to a lot of people about and am, am learning from practice, like you must tend to yourself. You must, you must prioritize your own self-regulation because you will then be able to enter the world from a more present place and a more restored place.
Becky: Yeah.
Christina: That’s another thing I notice is that people are spinning and spinning and spinning and that’s the whole, that’s like, it feels like that’s what they’re trying to do mm-hmm.
Is make people spin and spin and spin and it’s not a great way to, um, help anything. You have to go be quiet for a little while. Yeah. Regularly. That’s your energetic hygiene, right?
Becky: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean there, I’ve, I’ve sure I’ve said this to you before, but the strategy of this administration and others in power is flood the system.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And they mean it in, you know, flood the courts, flood, the, the, the, the news outlets. Don’t let them flood your own system. Right. It’s the only system that you can tend to directly. Mm-hmm. And that doesn’t mean putting, putting your head in the sand. It means noticing what’s going on in your own nervous system and knowing that you are going to make better decisions.
You’re going to have a bigger impact if you are regulated, if you tend to yourself, because then you’re, you’re entering, coming back to your question of, you know, did I have to do that tending of mm-hmm. You know, being secure in myself before I could go out into the noise. If you wanna go into the noise and of this world and have an impact.
You have to have a strong center, and you can only do that by tending to yourself.
Christina: Mm-hmm. And that’s what makes me feel hopeful in the face of all of this shit, is that there are so many of us who are meeting ourselves in therapy or to having vulnerable conversations with people so that we actually can, we actually know where our center is.
Mm-hmm. So you’ve got more and more people who have that conscious center. And that is, is incredibly hopeful because if more people have a conscious center, then they can walk forward from that place. And it’s much more stable of a place to be, you know?
Becky: Yeah. And people forget that your, your biggest impact will be on your small sphere of influence that is around you, which is mm-hmm.
It’s not how much, you know, like. Participating in democracy and calling your representative these are all important things to do, but spinning out on the latest thing, just always check back in and like, what can I do about this right now? So I was thinking, if you know about this, no judge, you know, no judgment of good and bad.
My practice to take it as extreme as possible is how can I put anyone in this administration or anyone in power out? How can I look at them outside of the, the paradigm of good and bad? What am I notice? It’s the same practice that I talked about before of like what’s upsetting me about this person?
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And then not judging it good or bad, but just then asking myself, okay, clearly these people hate democracy and that that’s lighting something up in me. So I asked the question, well, what can I do to love democracy? Beautiful. That’s within my sphere of influence and that’s gonna make a lot bigger impact than me spinning out in fear.
Mm-hmm. And worrying about the shit ton of everything they’re doing.
Christina: There’s a lot to worry about right now.
Becky: Yeah. And that’s hard. Mm-hmm. And it’s very hard, which is why we have to tend to our nervous system and remember that like the people who are making the good never makes the news.
You know, you don’t see on the news all the people who are doing amazing work in this world.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
I like that practice. That’s a beautiful practice for everyone. And I think because I know and love you, I can see that it’s taken you lots of practice to get there and to remember to check in with yourself.
Um, but you’re, I just keep this whole, this whole conversation, I just keep picturing this very steady, it’s a steadiness. It’s like, how can you steady yourself and I think of a triangle, which is the strongest shape.
And if you can steady yourself and like, widen that base, what does that look like?
You know?
Mm-hmm.
What does it look like for each person to widen that base of where they stand? And I always, I talk about a pyramid, so like a triangle just in three dimensions. And I, I, I am the bottom of it. And I, I always. You know, like I think a lot of people might think like, my marriage is the bottom.
I am the bottom. Mm-hmm. If I am unstable, then everything else above me that I’m supporting will not thrive. Yeah. Um, so loving myself, which is not hard for me, thankfully, is, is the bottom, like Yeah. Being with myself, loving myself, feeling centered, then creates this stable ground and then, and then things can, can hang out on top.
But, but it takes like, turning inward, that mental, energetic hygiene, it takes all those things that take time out of your week and it takes a conscious prioritization of, of that, you know. Yeah. And that’s, that can feel really daunting, I think to people. It’s actually just easier to keep frenetically fizzing around than to just stop and consciously think like, shoot, this actually feels a little bad.
I, I need to, I need to, to figure out a way to get a little bit more stable.
Becky: Yeah. Well, this is where I think stepping out of the binaries can actually help people, because it’s not this binary of you are either tending to yourself or not. I think pe, you know, right. We underestimate how impactful and powerful tiny little steps can be, and it’s a practice like people who, whoever’s listening is listening to me after years of practice, but I saw benefit all along the way.
The benefit just grows and grows and grows. People underestimate the the impact that a, like a single conscious breath can make on a decision you’re about to make or a conversation you’re about to enter into. So start tiny. And I get it. It feels like additive people are already feeling like their life is so packed and so busy and so it can feel additive.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And so, I mean, and I try to really meet, meet people where there are and give them tiny little things that they can add up. But you have to like notice and believe that those things are gonna add up and have so much grace for yourself. Yeah. Because I think when you start a path of trying to notice more in your life, you have this vision in mind of who you’re gonna be or what it’s gonna do for you and
you can get clouded by that. And it’s, this image came up for me recently. I’m cognizant of the time, so maybe I’ll, I’ll leave with this. And yeah. Um, this message came to me of like, I get these seeds of an idea or a seed of something that wants to grow in me or move into embodiment. And in that seed I can see the whole tree or the whole, what it’s gonna grow into.
And I get so excited about what it’s, what it could grow into that I forget to come back to the seed and keep tending to the seed because imagining what it’s gonna be keeps me in the mind. But the seed is what’s right here, right now, in the present moment. This is where nature is amazing and an amazing teacher, you don’t see the results of tending to that seed for a while.
So you just have to have faith that, you know, I’m here with this seed and I can hold both. I can hold the vision of what the seed could be and come back to, it’ll only be that if I tend to this seed right here, right now.
Christina: Yes. And I would add to that to put yourself in the perspective of the seed. Ooh. Who already knows that it will become the tree, and at that time it is simply the seed.
Becky: Ooh. Put yourself in the perspective of the seed. Yes. That’s so good. So good.
Christina: Be the seed.
Becky: Be the seed. Yes.
That is so good. I love you friend. I love you too.
Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025 where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet, and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Becky: Holy shit Christina, you have just given me my next obsession! Um, Assembly Theory. What is this magic? Who is this magical woman? And I will be going down the deepest dive and probably stay in that deep dive for a long time. This is incredible. She’s putting language to so many things that have been rattling around my consciousness for so long.
Like she put words to things that I have said. In a more eloquent and scientifically grounded way, but directionally the same. And even the way at the very end when she explicitly says that her process is an intuitive process. Like that is
revolutionary for, I think, for a person in science in, you know, in the scientific method to, to talk about how intuition and embodiment is part of her process. Like what? I’m in Awe. I’m excited. Thank you for this gift.
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