Seize & Desist

Jason Sandoval speaks with Dr Jessica Davis, former analyst for FINTRAC and the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), about what happens between spotting illicit crypto and actually seizing it. Drawing on her years inside Canadian intelligence, Jessica explains where cases stall after detection, why the money only tells part of the story, and what a win looks like when crypto can move in minutes.

05:15 – watching versus seizing

09:50 – three state playbooks for crypto

16:30 – how criminal liquidity helped states

18:40 – FINTRAC’s mandate and OTC cash-out desks

31:45 – financial intelligence and intent

40:50 – what counterterrorist financing achieves

44:30 – timely disruption and the speed of money

Dr Jessica Davis is President and Principal Consultant at Insight Threat Intelligence, researching how Iran, Russia, North Korea, China and Venezuela use crypto to evade sanctions. She spent 17 years in Canadian security and intelligence, including at FINTRAC and as a threat financing analyst at CSIS, and is the author of Illicit Money.

Watching and Seizing Work Together

Every disruption displaces a network, and following what comes next reveals where it goes.

Detection Is Not the Bottleneck

Suspicious crypto activity is often flagged, but without dedicated investigators on the receiving end, disclosures rarely become seizures.

Integrate the Financial Investigation

The money only makes sense alongside the human and technical intelligence, not in a parallel workstream.

Money Reveals Intent

Financial intelligence can distinguish between people who plan to act and those who only talk.

Smaller Flows Are Real Wins

Reducing the money available for terrorism and sanctions evasion is a success in its own right.

• Jessica Davis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmdottawa
• Insight Threat Intelligence: https://www.insightthreatintel.com
•  Illicit Money: Financing Terrorism in the Twenty-First Century by Jessica Davis: https://amzn.eu/d/0feNbpsL

If you found this episode useful, share it with your asset recovery colleagues, subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen and connect with Asset Reality on LinkedIn to be the first to hear about new episodes, events and resources.

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Jill Thomas speaks with Cornel Calinescu, chair of the Council of Europe committee that negotiated the new Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention. They discuss who writes asset recovery standards and what they mean for front-line practitioners.

Cornel takes us inside the Strasbourg negotiations, where 41 jurisdictions turned a small protocol into more than 40 technical articles. He explains how an open treaty creates a common language: definitions for crypto assets and VASPs, broader confiscation types, standard forms for seizing orders, and post-conviction tracing. They also cover value as the measurement unit of asset recovery, interlocutory sales, and why statistics are still missing.

Timestamps

07:00 – Asset recovery over the last 20 years

13:15 – the Warsaw Convention and the 1% problem

19:30 – The Strasbourg negotiations

24:15 – An open treaty with a common language

29:00 – Crypto, confiscation types and standard forms

37:00 – Value as a measurement unit

40:45 – Interlocutory sales and ANABI

45:15 – Cornel's magic wand: changing the mindset

Cornel Calinescu is an asset recovery consultant and chair of the Council of Europe committee on the Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention, elected by the 41 jurisdictions taking part. Over 26 years at Romania's Ministry of Justice, he established the country's first asset recovery office and led its consolidation into ANABI. He is a long-standing member of CARIN.

Asset Recovery Needs One Language

The protocol defines crypto assets, VASPs and confiscation types so every party means the same thing.

The Protocol Reaches Beyond Europe

As an open treaty, jurisdictions outside the Council of Europe can use adopt instrument.

Value Is the Measurement Unit

Only tracking value from crime to disposal shows whether a case met its target.

Seize Assets, Not Paper

Value-based orders must be backed by tracing, seizing and managing real assets.

Speed Is Built Into the Process

Standard forms replace translated, stamped files when crypto moves in a click.

• Cornel Calinescu on LinkedIn
• Council of Europe Warsaw Convention
• Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention
• EU Directive on Asset Recovery and Confiscation
• FATF Asset Recovery Guidance

If you found this episode useful, make sure you:

• Subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates, resources, and future episodes
• Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Jason Sandoval speaks with Jonathan Benton, former Head of the UK's Int. Corruption Unit at the National Crime Agency and now CEO and Founder of Intelligent Sanctuary, about the gap between criminal efficiency and institutional deliberation, and what it takes to close it in digital asset recovery. They discuss how immutable on-chain markers are used to identify wallet holders and support compliance with FATF's recommendations, as well as the legal questions being tested in court cases like Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones.

Seize & Desist speaks to practitioners across asset recovery, investigators, policymakers and people building tools in the field. No guest pays to appear, and nothing mentioned, including any tools or technology discussed, is endorsed or commercially connected to Asset Reality.

01:30 – Jonathan’s years in law enforcement

14:45 – marking stolen crypto to identify wallet holders

19:00 – on-chain movement vs wallet attribution

28:45 – legal questions raised by Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones

33:45 – on-chain marking and FATF compliance

45:00 – building the International Anti-Corruption Coordination Centre

Jonathan Benton is CEO and Founder of Intelligent Sanctuary. He spent 30 years in UK law enforcement as a Detective Superintendent and the Head of the NCA's International Corruption Unit, leading some of Britain’s most complex corruption cases, including the Ibori case, the OPL 245 oil block scandal, and the case against the former Nigerian petroleum minister, as well as designing the International Anti-Corruption Coordination Centre.

Agility Is the Real Gap

Criminals move faster than institutions because nobody makes them fill out a form first. Procurement and policy cycles lag years behind criminal adoption of new tools.

On-Chain Visibility Isn't Attribution

Standard blockchain analytics show what happened on-chain, not who controls the wallet behind it. Closing that gap is what makes recovery possible.

Immutable Markers Turn Flags Into Evidence

A wallet marked with a police reference number, visible on any blockchain explorer and removable only by investigators, gives exchanges something concrete to act on.

Courts Are Setting the Rules Case by Case

Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones are testing a different legal questions, from exchange liability to service by NFT, shaping how digital asset recovery works in practice.

• Jonathan Benton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanbenton
• Intelligent Sanctuary: https://isanctuary.io
• Cambridge Int. Symposium on Economic Crime: https://www.crimesymposium.org

If you found this episode useful, make sure you:

• Subscribe wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates on future episodes
• Share this episode with your colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

What happens to a seized mafia asset after the headlines fade? Dr Amber Phillips, Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, has spent her career chasing that answer, starting with fieldwork in Calabria alongside anti-mafia organisations working to strip the 'Ndrangheta of its assets and its grip on local communities.

She joins Jason Sandoval to unpack her 'Beyond the Figures' research with financial investigators across England and Wales and the gap between headline recoveries and what practitioners count as success. Amber argues for a fifth 'D', Destination, alongside disruption, disentitlement and deterrence, and previews her new NCA/Home Office study, funded through the Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme (ARIS), on whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime.

02:00 – Amber's route into asset recovery via Calabria

08:45 – how mafia power works and what asset recovery undermines

14:00 – the GOEL social reuse model in Calabria

17:50 – proposing a fifth D: destination as a measure of success

21:00 – Beyond the Figures

29:45 – how ARIS funding actually works

Dr Amber Phillips is a Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, specialising in organised and economic crime. Her career began in Calabria with anti-mafia organisations and she now leads a new NCA/Home Office study examining whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime.

Numbers Do Not Tell the Story

Amber's research with financial investigators found headline figures often miss the disruption and investigative quality practitioners value most.

Destination Deserves Its Own D

Amber proposes adding Destination to the existing framework of disruption, disentitlement, deterrence and detection.

Low Value Orders Can Outperform High Value Ones

A small seizure from an early-stage offender can disrupt a criminal career as effectively as a six-figure one further down the line.

ARIS Funding Shapes Investigator Behaviour

How ARIS returns are split between confiscation and forfeiture orders can push investigators toward the more lucrative route, not the more powerful one.

• Dr Amber Phillips on LinkedIn
• Bristol247 on the NCA/Home Office study
• Seize & Desist E32 with Sal Melki, NCA
• Seize & Desist E35 with Oliver Bullough

If you found this episode useful, make sure you:

• Subscribe to Seize & Desist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn and Twitter/X for updates, resources, and future episodes
• Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Oliver Bullough has written three books on how dirty money moves around the world. His single biggest finding is so low-tech it almost sounds like a joke. Jason Sandoval, former DEA special agent and Asset Reality’s Head of European Operations, spent thirty years chasing the same problem. One investigated it, the other wrote about it. Together, they unpack why the global system for tackling money laundering is not working and what it would take to build something that does.

02:30 – Money laundering as a meta-crime

13:00 – Carousel fraud and what a mission-led response looks like

24:00 – High-denomination banknotes and who is actually using them

29:30 – Operation Destabilise and cash-for-crypto

35:00 – Political will vs operational realities

40:10 – Asset recovery as a fourteen-point swing

42:20 – Oliver’s prescription

Oliver Bullough is an award-winning journalist and author of Moneyland, Butler to the World, and Everybody Loves Our Dollars. He has spent his career mapping how dirty money moves globally, writing for The Guardian, The New York Times, GQ, and The Economist. This is his second appearance on Seize and Desist.

Criminals Go Where Defences Are Weakest: As banks tightened controls, criminal wealth moved to crypto and trade finance, which remain vastly under-regulated.

Carousel Fraud Shows What Works: The UK’s near-complete defeat of carousel fraud shows what happens when intelligence, law enforcement and legislation pull together with a shared mission.

High-denomination Banknotes Undermine Everything: Fewer than 15% of US transactions are now done in cash, yet demand for $100 bills keeps rising. Central banks are printing them without asking where the demand is coming from.

Asset Recovery Is a Fourteen-Point Swing: Taking assets from criminals degrades their capability and improves law enforcement’s at the same time.

Political Will Is the Missing Variable: Every intervention Oliver identifies is achievable. The barrier is the political will to confront the interests of those with wealth to hide.

• Everybody Loves Our Dollars by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/06emtzVh
• Butler to the World by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/gaqVRE9
• Moneyland by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/ezB43Rv
• Oliver Bullough on The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/profile/oliverbullough
• Seize & Desist Episode 19 with Oliver Bullough: https://link.cohostpodcasting.com/d9980f5e-8a52-48d5-a31b-0ecfe2a3cc89?d=eJs8ymAzD&v=8112

If you found this episode useful, make sure you:

• Subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn and X for updates, resources, and future episodes
• Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Jill Thomas speaks with Tristram Hicks about why cash seizure is one of the most powerful tools available to law enforcement and what it takes to build asset recovery systems that deliver at scale. As one of the lead practitioners behind the UK's Proceeds of Crime Act and an international capacity building adviser, Tristram explains what turns legislation into results, why financial DNA changes how investigators approach every crime, and what FATF's new asset recovery guidance means for practitioners worldwide.

⏱️ Timestamps

00:05 – Introductions

01:41 – POCA: from dozens of cases to 5000+ a year

11:45 – The cash seizure spark that changed UK practice

16:12 – Incentivisation and why recycling assets changes minds

23:10– Financial DNA: every financial transaction leaves a trace

27:30 – How things used to be vs what we should be working towards

33:20 – The need for statistics in asset seizure

37:30 – The importance of cross agency reporting systems 

40:30 – Magic wand: bring cash seizure powers inland

👤 About Our Guest

Tristram Hicks is the author of The War on Dirty Money and one of the most experienced asset recovery practitioners working internationally today. He spent ten years at the centre of the UK's Proceeds of Crime Act implementation, leading operational financial investigation teams at Scotland Yard while helping shape national policy. He has since worked across Europe, the Balkans, and beyond, advising governments on how to build asset recovery systems that deliver results in practice.

🔑 Key Takeaways

Cash Seizure Is the Catalyst

Extending powers from the border inland transformed UK practice. Most jurisdictions have the same dormant authority available today.

Incentivisation Makes Legislation Work

The UK's Proceeds of Crime Act succeeded because it built an implementation committee and recycled confiscated proceeds back to the agencies doing the work. Once the financial incentive was in place, national volumes grew 14-fold.

Financial DNA Is Everywhere

Every financial transaction leaves a trace connecting people to people, places, and money.

Embed Financial Investigators at the Front Line

Working alongside criminal investigators from the point of arrest is what converts law into seizures. Parallel structures are far more effective than isolated ones.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• The War on Dirty Money by Tristram Hicks | Amazon
• Tristram Hicks on Substack
• Tristram Hicks on LinkedIn
• Tristram’s Critique of the FATF Guidance
• FATF Guidance on Asset Recovery
• EU Asset Recovery Directive (2024)
• CARIN network

📬 Stay Connected

If you found this episode useful:

• Subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates, resources, and future episodes
• Share this episode with those working in asset recovery, investigations or financial crime

⚠️ Disclaimer

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making decisions on the topics discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Aidan Larkin speaks with Tara Kavanaugh, a federal investigator with the U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) and liaison to the FBI's dark‑web opioid task force. Tara draws on a career spanning HUMINT work in the Middle East, signals intelligence at the NSA and crypto‑enabled investigations at USPIS to explain how modern crime moves across the mail system, the dark web, and digital‑asset ecosystems. She outlines the realities of mail‑based fraud, fentanyl supply chains, dark‑web vendor activity, and the growing “scamdemic,” while highlighting how postal data and blockchain analytics help identify offenders. They also discuss inter‑agency collaboration, investigative tooling and why asset recovery remains central to disrupting harm.

⏱️ Timestamps

00:00 – Early Career & Intelligence Background

04:40 – USPIS Crypto Investigations

06:45 – FBI Liaison Role & Dark‑Web Opioid Task Force

12:50 – Using Postal Intelligence to Strengthen Federal Cases

15:30 – Blockchain Tracing Patterns, Playbooks & Criminal Methods

21:45 – Agency Readiness, SOPs & Evolving Crypto Capabilities

25:45 – Crypto ATMs, Victim Risks & the Growing “Scamdemic”

32:40 - The Modern Investigator’s Toolkit & Global Collaboration

👤 About Our Guest

Tara Kavanaugh is a federal investigator at the U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) and liaison to the FBI’s Joint Dark‑Web and Opioid Task Force. Her career has spanned HUMINT operations in conflict zones, counterintelligence work at the NSA, dark‑web investigations targeting fentanyl vendors, and blockchain‑based tracing of narcotics proceeds and scam activity. Tara works across local, state, federal, and international partners like Europol to disrupt digital‑asset–enabled crime.

🔑 Key Takeaways

Asset Recovery Is Not Peripheral

From fentanyl vendors to terrorist financing, taking the money disrupts crime faster than arrests.

Inter‑Agency Collaboration Works When Data Flows

USPIS, FBI, Europol, and others share seized server data to proactively identify vendors and cases. USPIS postal metadata, label history, and mail‑stream analytics give investigators visibility that other agencies don’t have.

Crypto ATMs Are a Major Scam Vector

Elderly victims are overwhelmingly targeted, and the machines provide deceptive legitimacy.

Blockchain Tools Have Improved Dramatically

What once required hours of manual tracing now surfaces automatically across chains.

📚 Resources Mentioned

• 9CRC on Youtube
• Europol's Project A.S.S.E.T
• Alison Jimenez on Seize & Desist
• Rich Lebel on Seize & Deist
• Operation Shamrock
• Asset Reality's FCA Approval

📬  Stay Connected 

If you found this episode useful, make sure you:

• Subscribe to Seize & Desist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates, resources, and future episodes
• Share this episode with those working in asset recovery, investigations or financial crime

⚠️ Disclaimer

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making decisions on the topics discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Aidan Larkin sits down with Sal Melki, Deputy Director at the UK’s National Crime Agency and senior leader at the National Economic Crime Centre, to unpack how illicit finance really works today, from local cash couriers to global money laundering networks. 

Sal shares frontline insight on why money laundering is now easier than ever, how technology and crypto are reshaping criminal networks, and what actually works when disrupting and recovering criminal assets at scale. 

We also dive into Operation Destabilise, public-private data fusion, and why asset recovery has become one of law enforcement's most powerful tools against serious organised crime. 

⏱️ Timestamps 

00:00 – Introductions and Overview of the NCA and NECC 

04:30 - Evolution of Organized Crime Networks 

09:40 - AI, Synthetic Identities, and Emerging Threats 

17:30 - Public-Private Partnerships & Data Fusion  

28:40 - Crypto as an Asset Class  

36:50 - Operation Destabilize  

39:55 - Money Laundering as a Service  

46:20 - Future Priorities 

👤 About Our Guest 

Sal Melki is a Deputy Director at the UK National Crime Agency and a senior leader at the National Economic Crime Centre, where he leads the response to illicit finance, money laundering, and asset recovery. With a background in the Metropolitan Police and Counter Terrorism Policing, Sal works at the centre of the UK’s public‑private effort to disrupt serious organised crime.

🔑 Key Takeaways 

Illicit Finance is the System 

Asset recovery is not a side quest. It is central to disrupting organised crime, from drugs and fraud to sanctions evasion. 

Money Laundering Has Scaled 

Professional laundering networks now operate like service providers, using cash, crypto, shell companies, and technology to move value globally. 

Technology Cuts Both Ways 

AI, crypto, and automation are making crime easier, but they are also powerful tools when law enforcement and the private sector work together. 

Data Fusion Beats Silos 

Proactive, shared intelligence across banks, crypto firms, and law enforcement delivers far more impact than reactive reporting alone. 

Disruption Matters 

You do not always need to arrest the kingpin. Taking money, increasing friction, and targeting facilitators change behaviour fast. 

📚 Resources Mentioned 

National Crime Agency (NCA) 

National Economic Crime Centre (NECC) 

Operation Destabilise 

The Record | Inside Operation Destabilise 

INTERPOL Silver Notice 

Basel Institute on Governance | INTERPOL Silver Notice Explained 

📬 Stay Connected  

If you found this episode useful, make sure you: 

• Subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen 
• Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates, resources, and future episodes 
• Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime 

⚠️ Disclaimer  

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making decisions on the topics discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality. 

This episode was originally recorded for Times Radio on 13th November 2025.

In this special bonus episode, Aidan Larkin joins Hugo Rifkind on Times Radio to discuss what happens after a major seizure and why the landmark £5.1bn crypto seizure could redefine how governments handle digital assets.

In November 2025, a Chinese national dubbed the “Bit Queen” was sentenced to several years in prison for orchestrating a staggering £5.1 billion cryptocurrency Ponzi scheme. The case made headlines worldwide, not just for its scale, but for the questions it raises about the future of asset recovery in a digital age.

Aidan and Hugo explore:

• What happens after billions in crypto are seized
• How governments navigate cross-border asset recovery
• The diplomatic and legal challenges of returning funds to victims
• Why this case could set a global precedent for managing digital assets

Resources

Crypto Seizures: A Turning Point for Global Asset Recovery

BBC News: Cryptoqueen who fled China for London mansion jailed over £5bn Bitcoin stash

Stay Connected 

Subscribe to Seize & Desist for all the latest insights on asset recovery. 

Disclaimer 

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making decisions on the topics discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality. 

Aidan Larkin sits down with Erin West and Detective Matthew Hogan of Operation Shamrock to unpack the global 'scamdemic' that’s devastating victims and fuelling organised crime, exploring the human cost behind crypto-enabled fraud. Erin and Matthew share frontline insights on why law enforcement struggles to keep pace, how AI is supercharging scams and what systemic changes are urgently needed. 

We also spotlight Asset Reality’s new strategic alliance with Operation Shamrock, aimed at closing the enforcement gap and accelerating victim restitution worldwide. 

Timestamps 

00:00 – Introduction

03:30 – The Scamdemic: How pig-butchering scams evolved and scaled globally

10:00 – AI and the psychology of scams

15:00 – Human trafficking and scam compounds

20:00 – Law enforcement challenges 

29:00 – Why crypto recovery is easier than you think 

46:00 – Social media’s role in enabling scams 

59:00 – Community, Collaboration and the Crypto Coalition 

About Our Guests 

Erin West is the founder of Operation Shamrock, a nonprofit dedicated to disrupting the scam industry through education, advocacy and law enforcement support. After 26 years as a prosecutor, Erin now leads global efforts to fight transnational organized crime and protect victims. 

Matthew Hogan is a detective with the Connecticut State Police and co-founder of its cryptocurrency working group. He serves on the Secret Service Financial Crimes Task Force and works tirelessly to recover assets for victims of crypto-enabled fraud. 

Key Takeaways 

The Scamdemic is Industrial: Pig-butchering scams and sextortion are run from compounds housing tens of thousands of trafficked workers, weaponizing AI and psychological manipulation. 

Law Enforcement is Outpaced: Crypto recovery is technically easier than physical asset recovery, but resource gaps, bureaucracy and lack of training stall progress. 

Systemic Change is Needed: From unified reporting systems to breaking down silos, collaboration across law enforcement, tech platforms and financial institutions is critical. 

Our Partnership with Operation Shamrock 

Asset Reality and Operation Shamrock have formed a global strategic alliance to: 

• Deliver monthly free crypto seizure training to U.S. and international law enforcement via the Crypto Coalition. 
• Develop standardized playbooks for intake, seizure, and investigation workflows. 
• Launch a global advocacy initiative making victim restitution a core success metric for crypto enforcement. 

As Aidan Larkin says: 

“This isn’t just about crypto, it’s about systemic change. If we empower local agencies with the right playbook and tools, we can disrupt billion-dollar networks before the funds vanish.” 

Learn more

Resources 

Operation Shamrock 

Crypto Coalition 

Chainalysis Report: Seizable Crypto Assets in 2025 

Stay Connected 

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Disclaimer 

Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making decisions on the topics discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.