359 SelfWork: Talking About Sibling Sexual Abuse: A Conversation with TEDx Speaker Jane Epstein

Trigger Warning: We're talking about sibling sexual abuse in this episode. The links for sexual abuse hotlines are below. I’ve had so many guest interviews on SelfWork – really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there’s something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they’ve learned something the hard way – and they want to help others either through what they went through or to avoid it in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make – but also were freeing. Many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar – and have tried, as Jane did for many years – to sweep it under the rug. A stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling – and you’ve blamed yourself. Or felt a shameful heaviness. Please know, you are far, far from alone. Advertiser's Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just click here! Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! Vital Links: Jane Epsteins TEDxBocaRaton Talk: Great sexual abuse website for sibling abuse: The 501-3-C non-profit 5WAVES.org - Jane's (and others) website for support International Sexual Abuse Hotline thru RAINN I want to thank Jane and all other survivors of abuse who’ve come forward. It takes tremendous courage. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast.  Subscribe to my website and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and we have a wonderful guest for you today. I wanna make sure you hear however, that this episode does discuss sexual abuse, sibling sexual abuse. So please heed a trigger warning and we'll have sexual abuse hotline suggestions in the show notes. You know, I've had so many guest interviews here on Selfwork, really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there's something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they've learned something the hard way, and they want to help others, either through what they went through or to avoid the experience in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her for a six year period of time. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make, but also were very freeing. And I want to quickly say, many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar and have tried, as Jane did for many years, to sweep the memories under the rug. Maybe it was a stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling, and you've blamed yourself or felt a shameful heaviness. So that's what we're talking about today on SelfWork. But before we continue, let's hear a brief message from Magnesium Breakthrough. You wanna give their product a try if you have too many sleepless nights, maybe from your own troubling memories. Magnesium Breakthrough Ad: I hope you truly enjoyed some time with family and friends this summer and got to take a break from the daily grind and enjoy your life. Perhaps you've indulged a bit on ice cream to beat the heat, or a margarita or two. 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Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I should tell you before we begin, how I met Jane Epstein. She actually did a TEDx talk for Boca Ratone and I watched it and we had the same coach. That's sort of a neat bond for us to share, but we talk about our TEDx experience a little bit here too. So please listen to this episode. Please click the link to Jane's TEDx talk, which will be in the show notes, or go to my website, drmargaretrutherford.com, and you can find it there. Another website that Jane has told me about, which is really wonderful is www.siblingsexualtrauma.com. But just know you are far, far from alone. Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I couldn't be happier to have you on SelfWork Jane, because I have listened to your TEDx many, many times. And we shared a coach, which was kind of fun. And so I, I looked at yours as to say, well, what would it be like to to work with Brian Miller? But I personally today wanna hear more about your story. About one of my questions as I looked at it is, how did you talk to your family about it? Or, or did you say, "No, it's my story to tell."  Just what and what made you, what brought you to TEDx in the first place? Speaker 2: Jane Epstein First of all, thank you for having me on your show. Of course, I, I have listened to a couple of your podcasts and I, I've listened to you and I've listened to your TEDx and you are very trauma informed, and you are very kind and compassionate and lots of wisdom. So I appreciate being on your puck. Thank you. First thing, what brought me to TEDx and how did I tell my family? Me, I don't remember the exact timeline, but I started Googling sibling sexual abuse and trauma, and I couldn't find anything on it. And I, I had this feeling that I wasn't the only one. I thought, I can't be the only person. 'cause I found two outdated articles that stated that it's a silent epidemic, right? I was, okay, well, if it's an epidemic, I'm clearly not the only six year old little girl. My my sibling who was 12 at the time, is not the only 12 year old child who, who an abused a sibling. So I just was called to start talking about it, and I reached out to my sibling. It was very awkward. And I expressed to him, I said, "I feel called to start talking about this and sharing my story because no one's talking about it. And it's a silent epidemic." And he said he understood and that he would support me in whatever way he can. Speaker 1: I get chill bumps when I hear that. Speaker 2: Yes. He, I'm, I have a very unique situation. I've been able to forgive him. I can call him and ask him questions. I'll say, I had this memory, is this true? And he's very careful to not give me more information. Mm-hmm. , because he knows I have enough to work with. I don't need any more triggers. I don't need any more memories. Mm-hmm. . And I also think that because of what happened between us, that he's hypervigilant and that he's got his eyes on other families, and that he sees that there could potentially be problems and sexual abuse occurring. And because sibling sexual abuse is so prevalent and not talked about, I think we are seeing things and not always able to put our finger on it. In Speaker 1: Your talk, you quote in your talk, you quote statistics like it's three to five times - It happens three to five times more than father daughter abuse, which is incredible. It starts earlier. It lasts for years often. So you're right. And it, it is something I, I remember I wrote a post on sex, uh, sibling sexual abuse. I got all kinds of comments. So yes, you're exactly right. Speaker 2: Yes. I listened to your podcast on the sibling sexual abuse, and it was very well done. Thank you. You're, you're very informed, . Thank you. So I started talking to my brother and I said, I need, we need to talk about this. We need to, we need to do this. Um, or I need to do this. And I had these great grand visions because there's so much work that needs to be done. Well, it's a marathon on its front . So I started pitching the media, it, my emails were either not opened or not responded to. One response was, "Well, we haven't ever talked about that, but if we do, we'll reach out". And I'm thinking, you're not gonna talk about it. So I come across a video with Brian Kenneth Miller, our joint TEDx coach. And he had gone through, what is a TEDx? What is a TEDx? Speaker 2: What is not a TEDx? Because I thought, "Well, I'll go on TEDx and I'll share my story and I'll raise the alarm bell." Well, TEDx is not sharing your story, but I thought, well, I'll book a call with him anyways. So I booked a call with him and he said, "A tough topic, but I think we could come up with something." So we started talking about it, and it is, it's a tough topic, it's a dark topic. And Brian was never told me this, but he was concerned, how am I gonna get on the TEDx stage? Mm-hmm. . So we started going down the path of how to support someone who's been through a traumatic event. And I was gonna slide sibling sexual abuse and trauma through the back door. Okay. Which would not have been a great talk because there's lots of how to support people who've gone through trauma. It would not have been Speaker 1: Not unique, Speaker 2: Impactful, not unique, not impactful. It might have gotten on stage, but not likely. So then I heard from TEDx Boca Raton, and I sat down with Eric and Eric said, look, you know, we like your idea, but we really wanna know more about the sibling sexual abuse and trauma. Can you talk just about that? And I said, yes, I can. And I pointed to all my research books and I started spouting off all these statistics. And he said, "Great, that's what we want you to talk about". And I said, excellent. And that's how it all started. And I didn't mean to be on the TEDx, it's just that's kind of where I landed. And I, you know, once I was approved and started practicing my TEDx talk, I started having all the anxieties of speaking in front of a large crowd, but practiced and practiced and practiced. And the day I got on that stage, I just, they basically, there's something magical about that red dot. Maybe it's true. I got on that red dot and all was okay. But I was shaking.. Speaker 1: Oh, I was perfectly calm. . Speaker 2: It's amazing what you can make, even though the camera, you know, the camera shows all, oh, it was done. Well, you did aYou did a really wonderful job. Speaker 1: And, and one of the things that I thought was so powerful about it, again, you've already mentioned it, was that your, your brother had, he had apologized, but then he had, you had written to him years later and he said, "Oh gosh, I didn't know this was still a thing for you." So I'm sure this solidified for him, again, the seriousness of the trauma, the impact that that had had on you, uh, and that it had, it had, uh, impacted your choices as an adult. And when you left home and it was, it was a elegant story. Well, it's, call it elegant is missing the point of that. It was very painfully uh, impactful. So, um, yeah, I mean, you made, you made some career choices that were obviously you trying to get back in control, but it didn't work. Speaker 2: Right. Right. And I'm not sure he understands the full impact. We've never sat down and, and talked about it. It's, it's like, it's a, it's a strained relationship. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: Um, but it, it's friendly enough in that I can reach out to him. I haven't reached out to him for a while, but I would can reach out to him and say, "I had this memory, is this a false memory? Is this true? Is this what happened?" And he is very careful the way he answers it, because he does, doesn't wanna trigger me and give me more memories. 'cause I have plenty to work with. Sure. He understands why I'm so public. He's not exactly thrilled about it. But, you know, I was in the People magazine and I had to run that by him. And, and the pictures, I ran the pictures by him. And that, it's hard. Uh, it's hard because it's putting him in a, in a, in a tough situation. But in my situation, in my story, my sibling is not a monster. My sibling is not a pedophile. My sibling caused a lot of harm, caused a lot of damage, caused a lot of trauma. And I, I have forgiven him. Um, and I'm not telling every survivor, you have to forgive to heal. That is not my, that's not my thing. It's just that's what worked for me. And it started by forgiving the little girl first, my little girl myself. And then I was able to forgive him. Speaker 1: Well, an aspect of this that I wanted to talk to you about a little bit more was you opened the talk by saying that you were in marital work with your husband, and your therapist turned to you and said, "I, I just don't get where all this anger is coming from. It doesn't seem to fit the situation." And, and then ask the very astute question of, "Is there something that might be, is triggered by what's going on with your husband? And that's what's, that's what we're seeing". And you, did you, did you connect the dots right then? Or did it take you a while? It took a while. It was your sexual abuse that was getting somehow, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. What was getting triggered with your husband? Speaker 2: Right. Many years before, before we were in counseling, something happened in the bedroom that, that triggered a memory. And that memory would not go away. Usually memories would come and go and I could put them away. And I thought it was just two kids being curious. That's not my problem. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: I thought because I'd lost, I lost my first husband to cancer and I got remarried to my, my husband. Now I try not to use current husband 'cause he doesn't like to be the current husband. . Speaker 1: Well, my husband calls Speaker 2: Himself Speaker 1: ) . We've been married 33 years, and he calls himself my current husband. So , Speaker 2: He's a good sport then. Yeah. . Yeah. So I had thought, I knew we had two small children. He had a stressful job. I had, I was still dealing with grief. And I thought, that's why I'm angry. That's why I am upset. That's why I was not depressed in my brain. I was not depressed because no, I had survived burying my first husband, and I survived that. So there's no way I could be depressed. Speaker 1: I have a, I have a book for you to read, . I know Speaker 2: You do. I am in that category. So we eventually went to marriage counseling and I went into the marriage counseling thinking, okay, he's gonna fix my husband, gonna fix him. Well, I had work to do too, fix too, when it comes to that. So we were in counseling for five years and we really had made a lot of progress. But I was still very, very angry. And I had asked myself, I had dug down and I thought, maybe it's something inside of me. I've tried to turn over every stone that maybe there's something inside of me that needs work. Mm-hmm. . So when the marriage counselor asked that question, I thought, well, there is this. My brother sexually abused me. There's that. And I approached it as, it can't be that because I participated. Right. So who am I to be messed up over that? Speaker 2: And the counselor, I kind of describe it as the deer in the headlights look. He's kinda like trying to sit still and kind of leaning in and trying to be very calm, realizing, okay, this is a big deal. No, what happened is a big deal. Right. And that it went on and off for six years. And that No, that was a big deal. And he said, "You're gonna need to tell Steve". And I said, huh. Steve's my husband. Mm-hmm. Current husband mm-hmm. . I said, oh, no, because then he'll be able to blame all our marriage problems on me. And he said, you need to be able to tell him to protect yourself in order and to, to be able to heal. So that's how that all started. And then I started a whole new healing process. Speaker 1: It's amazing. I've told a story on, on SelfWork about a woman. Um, and I already put a cautionary warning before we started. So great. Uh, a woman came in to see me who, um, it was the local community center. I literally had just gotten to Arkansas where I live now. And, and she said, you know, she told me about sexually abu abuse that her father had, um, had done to her. And then she, and there was this huge sense of relief. And then she came in the next week and she said, I've got something worse to tell you. So I sat back and said, all right. And she said, my dad made me do things to my brother . And she, she was a tough cowboy kind of woman. She had boots and, you know, she was farm girl. I mean, she was tough as nails. Speaker 1: And she teared up and, and we talked about it. And then she, she canceled her next appointment. And I called her and said, I'm, you've, you've shared so much with me, I'm a little concerned that you're not coming back in. Yeah. She said, well, okay, I'll come back in one more time. And she looked at me, Jane, and she said, I thought I would, I knew the look that would be on your face when I told you that I had done something to my brother. Because from her perspective, she had participated rather than being coerced herself. You know, it was, it was her doing something to her brother. And I said, you know, so, and she said, but the look on your face was not condemnation. It was, well, of course you did what your dad told you to do. Right. Um, and then there are other instances I I, uh, I mentioned before when we were just talking about a, a little girl who wore a red nightgown for her brother. Um, because she, she said, I enjoyed the attention. I knew something was wrong, but I, I didn't get any attention from anybody except from him. And so it was very complex and very complicated. But that whole idea of participation is so, um, is, is so confounding for any victim of sexual abuse, but especially with sibling sexual abuse, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, I wanna share with you that I've actually had some people who, when I, when I speak about the child who caused harm, there are situations where the child causes a lot more than harm. And I try and, and, and lower it a little bit so that parents hear me. Mm-hmm. , because if I scream your child, the pedophile or your child, the monster, your child, the perpetrator, they're not going to hear me. Right. 'cause if I talk about it in a more gentle as your child who caused harm, they're more likely to hear me. So that's why I approach it that way. But I understand that there are survivors out there where it was a lot more than harm. Yes, I understand that. Yes. But I have heard from people who have caused harm and they are suicidal. You're right. And so that's why we talk about this, because we don't want our children to be on any side of it. Speaker 2: Or I feel like if we raise awareness, if we educate our children, maybe we can lessen the numbers. You know, if we talk to our teenagers when they're 10, 12 and explore with them, say, Hey, you're experiencing a lot of changes. You've got a lot of questions. And I understand you may not be able to come to me as your parent, but you are at risk of harming another child, either a younger sibling or a cousin. And so we need to talk about this. What do you know when you have these feelings? And, and we need to talk about pornography. So that's why I I I am, it's an all encompassing, it's a whole family trauma. And, and I work very closely with the women of Five Wave, I dunno if you know anything about the Five Ways, but there's three parents and two survivors. Speaker 2: We've come together. And so the parents have shared their stories when they discover sibling sexual abuse and trauma in their homes and what the parents go through. Yes. What the survivor goes through, what the person who cause harm goes through. If we just talk about it and raise awareness and, and educate people and quit shoving it under the rug, maybe we can lift the numbers. Maybe we can get people help. Because you are a very, you're an informed therapist. You, you are very informed. A lot of therapists I've heard from survivors, they'll, they'll tell a survivor, well, you know, kids are curious. You are very informed. We need more of you . We really do. Speaker 1: Let me ask you something. Are there statistics? 'cause I'm not aware of them. If there are, and I'd love to know, um, about how many of the siblings be they girls or boys, we might point out it's not necessarily, um, and of course, or, or any gender identification. Um, absolutely. And how, what are the statistics on whether they have been abused themselves and then turn around and abused? Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we don't really have those statistics. We need more research. And the women of five Waves, we've actually had people, researchers are reaching out to us, asking us to share their surveys. So there is progress. Again, it's the marathon, not the sprint. So we are trying to gain more, more insight into that. And that's another thing is that I, I hear from survivors a lot. They reach out to me and they say, well, you know, my sibling did this to me, or my cousin did this to me, and then I did it to another child. And that there's shame on top of shame. Yes, indeed. And that happens a lot. Happens a lot. Mm-hmm. . But we don't have those statistics. Again, we need more research and we need more awareness and we need to be talking about it. And that, that's why I'm very loud. Speaker 1: What, what is the name of the organization that you Women of five. Speaker 2: (20:58) Okay. So it's called Five Waves Worldwide Awareness Speaker 1: (21:02) Wave. W A V E Ss. Correct. Speaker 2: (21:04) Worldwide Awareness, Voice, Education and Support. Okay. The way we came together, I've just been out there being very loud. And I am a moderator of a Facebook group for all types of survivors. And we kept having parents keep trying to join. And we're like, well, this is for survivors. So I went to find a parent support group, and through that I found a parent who had started a Facebook group for parents experiencing sibling sexual abuse and trauma in their homes. In their homes. So I reached out to her and I tried to join her group and she politely declined . And then I had a person reach out to me, Brandy Black, which is a pen name, to protect her family. Mm-hmm. . She said, look, it's been during Covid this happened in my home. I couldn't find any research, I couldn't find any resources on it. So I developed a website. Will you look at it? I promised my children to have a survivor look at it. And I said, whoa, this is amazing. Great. That's something I don't have to do. Was on my list. And I started looking at her website, Brandy Black. Speaker 1: (22:03) Oh, black. Okay. Speaker 2: (22:04) Black. I said, I can't get through this. I'm writing my TEDx. So I pulled in another survivor that I knew who was public, Maria Awa. And then I reached out to the woman who ran the Facebook group. And we all came together as 5WAVES. Oh, see. And the parents shared their stories. We shared their stories. So what we have through this organization, it's now 5 0 1 C three, is we are becoming thought leaders in this arena, or it's all out of a matter of, of, of caring. But we all have unique perspectives and we just wanna raise awareness. We want families to have support. We want families to have resources. We, you know, obviously one day we'd love to have this go away, but we aren't, you know, we aren't that optimistic. It, it's been going on forever. Speaker 1: Two cases come to mind that are the opposite. Um, both of them were difficult. One case, um, a case, one woman's story, um, was, uh, I was seeing the mother actually in therapy, and her daughter told her that her brother had sexually abused her. Um, the mother went to another state and confronted the, the brother. And he said, yes, he had, it took them probably it would took them years. I'm not sure how many, because the mother had to do her own work. The, the daughter, um, started working on herself. Um, 'cause she was definitely making choices that were very, um, tied to that, uh, that kind of abuse. So was the perpetrator the, or you go the person who did harm? He got his therapy finally. They got together and did therapy. But it was a long time before this family got together for Thanksgiving or, you know, anything like that, because the, the, the pain was just too real. Speaker 1: And, and yet I, they gradually worked toward that. It was marvelous to see the kind of healing that could actually take place when everybody was, and the mother, you know, had to take some responsibility for saying was I checked out. I mean, you know, maybe I was, maybe I wasn't. Um, and so they did great work. You know, I also have an example of a patient who I was seeing the daughter who was abused. The sister who was abused, uh, when she was a toddler, she had a twin. And she didn't remember it until the twin did. And then they confronted the family together. Actually, before she saw me. The family kind of nodded. It was an older brother. The older brother said, it wasn't me. I think it was a neighbor. Um, that wasn't true. And not a word was said about it again. Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very common. Speaker 1: And she was, she had the kind of family where they expected her to be there at every birthday, at every anniversary, at every holiday, at every religious event. I mean, and it was every time she was, she had anorexia still does. She would just not eat for days, um, after a home visit. So it, you know, those two situations are so contrasting and, and, and one of there can, there can be healing. Yes. It's hard, but there can be healing. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, I think that the second scenario that you talked about, if you're a parent, I mean, parents experience a lot too when they discover this mm-hmm. . And if they go to Google and they can't find anything, if they aren't understanding, they may think, well, my, my child's the only person in the world who's harmed a sibling, or is my child gonna grow up to be a pedophile? And it's probably terrifying and probably easier to say, okay, let's just pretend status quo, and let's just, let's just go forward. Let's just shove it under the rug. That's what we're hoping to raise awareness. So if the parent, they, they got, I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if like, the Today Show covered this? Speaker 1: Sure. Wouldn't Speaker 2: It be, you know, sibling sexual abuse? Then a mom might think, oh, that's ho that's horrible. I can't believe that's happening. But then if, if she hears about it in her home or friend, she'll say, oh, but I heard this was a thing. You know, it's, it's at least in their subconscious, because if we don't get it out there, it's really hard for a parent to wrap their heads around. Of course. I mean, I can't imagine. I am a parent and I try to educate my children to the point where they run away from me. , . But, um, I, I can't, it's really hard for parents to wrap their head around. And that's, we're just trying to raise that awareness. But I hear from a lot of survivors that they're expected to just go on is normal, and, and you're asking a survivor to, to sit in the room with someone who abused them and possibly in the same home where they were abused. And that's very triggering. That's very difficult. Speaker 1: Yes, it is. And, and it doesn't get any easier. Another woman comes to mind who said, you know, that she sits by her brother every day or every Sunday at church, and she's always crying and people believe she's crying because she's moved by the service. And actually she's just, she's overwhelmed with feelings about the abuse that he has denied and continues to deny. So it's, it's, gosh, it's so painful. But there, there can be healing. Um, what, what did your mother, how did your mother handle it? Speaker 2: Well, I told her, I wanna say I was around age 24 when I was still pushing it off. It was just two kids. It just, it ha it happened. Uh, um, and I kind of said it in passing, and she cried. She said, I believe you, but where was I? Where was I? And then she started questioning. She said, but he's a good kid. He, he always knew right from wrong. There was a lot of confusion. And then I pushed it back. I put it back in its box, and we didn't talk about it for years. And then when it reared its ugly head in my current marriage mm-hmm. , um, she didn't understand. I said, I need to come forward. I need, I need to talk about this. I need to come forward. And she, she said, you need to forgive him. You need to forgive him. Speaker 2: And I said, I don't need to do anything. I will forgive him when I'm ready on my own terms. And she gave me the books on forgiveness, and I rolled my eyes. You can't, you can't force that. And she said, what about his family? And I screamed at her. I said, his family. Yeah, yeah. Because unfortunately, I took him, I was angry at him. I was angry at my husband. I was angry at my, my siblings wife. I was angry at my siblings children, and I pushed them all aside mm-hmm. . And they didn't understand why I was pushing them away. They didn't know mm-hmm. . So I did come to terms with it, and I did forgive my brother on my terms when I was ready. And then I reached out to my mom and I said, I forgave him. And there was relief in her voice mm-hmm. Speaker 2: . And then she realized, oh, now I've got my own journey of forgiveness. And she had to follow her own journey. And she was at the TEDx, she was in the audience. She didn't know what I was going to say. And, but by the time she was at the TEDx, I think she was in a good place. Um, she loves both of her children. It's, it's a very tough position to be in. And there were times when I said, I don't wanna be in the same room with him. And that was really hard for her. Mm-hmm. . So she seems to be on her own journey, and I think she's into the point where she's been able to accept it and, and sees why I'm being so public and understands why I am so public. Speaker 1: So what's been the changes in your life? I mentioned in the intro that you have over half a million views. What, how has your life changed since the TEDx and, and what are your plans for the future as this, as you, as you run this marathon? Speaker 2: Yes. It, it, I'm still running the marathon. Expect I, the finish line keeps moving. I, I actually heard from another survivor yesterday via email because it came across the TEDx. And so people are finding me through the TEDx and, and when they find me through the TEDx, I'm able to get them into Facebook support groups. I'm able to get them resources. So I know that they're in a community of people that's been, you know, I think when we can help others that help heal us mm-hmm. , um, I am, I'm still writing my memoir. It's so, so close. I have a children's book that I've, I've submitted. I'm waiting to hear back if they will publish it or not. That's what's on my radar right now. I am slowing down a little bit. I try and be supportive within the Facebook groups. I, I'm trying to, um, answer all my social media messages because I get a lot of social media messages. A lot of people on TikTok, unfortunately, a lot of my people are on TikTok. They're a younger age. Speaker 2: I'm slowing down a little bit. One, I'm tired. Two, I have two teenage boys who are in 10th grade, and they will be leaving me in three years. So I'm trying to be very, very present with them and enjoy them. Sure. And I just kind of show up wherever I'm needed and trying to, to support Five waves and, and keep that momentum going and, and just raising more awareness through five. Nobody's selling anything. We're not trying to, you know, obviously we're looking for donations, but, you know, we're not selling anything. We're not making any money. We're just trying to raise awareness and, and collaborate. We're having more and more people reach out wanting to volunteer with us, which is great. 'cause we're five people mm-hmm. . And yeah. I'm just looking forward to a day when there's more survivors who feel comfortable coming forward. And, and honestly, I I welcome hearing from those who caused harm too. Um, I feel we've received a couple emails. If, Speaker 1: If someone wanted to donate or volunteer or just, I mean, can you give the names of the Facebook groups or do they reach out to you? How, how is that, how do you want them to do that? Right. Speaker 2: (32:14) The 5WAVES.org website. Okay. You can email us there. You can contact us if you're, if you're, if you're a parent, if you're a survivor, if you're someone who's caused harm, you can email us there. And then also on that website, we have Facebook groups and, and we, we try and respond to every email that we can. Yeah. So that's where I'm headed right now. I kind of show up where I am needed . Speaker 1: And so I'm a great admirer of yours. And I, because I think you did this TEDx for a really good reason. Um, and I mean, and, and a very honorable reason. And so, uh, that I, I admire greatly. Speaker 2: Well, thank you. And I admire you as much. I I think that we, I I was looking forward to this interview and I told my husband this morning, I said, this'll be a great interview because she, she's informed and she knows what she's talking about. She's done the research, she's done the homework. So I really appreciate it. Speaker 1: Oh, well, thank you. Take very good care. Thank you. Speaker 1: I know you could tell from Jane's interview just how sincere and how passionate she is about getting this message out. And we at SelfWork wanted to help her do just that. The organization Jane refers to in the interview is the worldwide awareness, voice, education, and support. Better known as 5WAVES.org. And the five is not spelled out, is a numeral. So 5WAVES.org give if you can. It's a 5 0 1 3 C. So it's a nonprofit. And I wanna thank Jane and all other survivors of abuse who come forward. It takes tremendous courage to do so. Thank you for being here at SelfWork today. Please take care of yourself, your loved ones, and your community. I'm Dr. Margaret, and this has been SelfWork.

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