The appalling inhumanity still happening in the world makes this conversation distressingly relevant. There is the thought that some people are less human then others. This has to be challenged.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted on December 10th 1948.

We now live in a world where the rights agreed in that document are widely ignored and some politicians openly seek to remove the UK from enforcing them.

Plus racial intolerance is on the march . The horrible spectre of antisemitism is looming over the news as is denial of the rights of Palestinians. 

As an American bishop recently said ..... immigrants and gay people are as valuable as everyone else.

A good time to listen to the words of the late Sir Martin Gilbert.

Sir Martin Gilbert is known as Churchill's biographer, but also as the historian of the Holocaust.

This conversation with David Freeman took place when his book Never Again was published. Sir Martin's thoughts on war are sadly relevant.

Sir Martin died in 2015.