The Killer Whale That Changed the World – the story of Moby Doll and the accidental orca capture that changed everything between humans and orcas – was created for CBC Radio’s Ideas by Skaana host, Mark Leiren-Young and produced by Yvonne Gall. It originally aired on CBC in 2013, won the Jack Webster Award for Best Radio Documentary and sparked the award-winning book, The Killer Whale Who Changed the World, which is currently being adapted as a feature documentary. This episode is being shared with the permission of CBC Radio.

One of the goals of this audio documentary was to capture the stories of the men who remembered Moby Doll while they were still able to share them. Four of the people interviewed here – Dr. Murray Newman, Dr. Patrick McGeer, Christopher “Gus” Angus and Kenneth “Gilbey” Hewlett are no longer with us. We are sharing this in their memory.

Other featured interviews:

Dr. John Ford joined Fisheries and Oceans Canada in 2001 as the head of the Cetacean Research Program at the Pacific Biological Station in Nanaimo, BC. He is also an Adjunct Professor in the Department of Zoology and the Fisheries Centre, University of British Columbia. Dr. Ford has been involved in field studies on cetaceans in western Canadian waters since 1977. In recent years, his research has focused on the conservation status of cetaceans listed under Canada’s Species-at-Risk Act and has involved population abundance estimation and development of acoustic tools for determining seasonal abundance of cetaceans in remote offshore waters.

Dr. Charlotte Epstein is Assistant Professor in the Department of Government and International Relations at the University of Sydney. She is the author of The Power of Words in International Relations: Birth of An Anti-Whaling Discourse.

Richard Blagborne was the convener of the 2013 Moby Doll Orca Symposium: Reflections for Change on Saturna Island. Blagborne initiated and led the restoration of the Fog Alarm Building which was scheduled for demolition as part of federal lighthouse de-staffing programs. The building has been completely renovated and now houses storyboards, a media centre, historical photos and written archives charting the island’s history.

The host is Paul Kennedy.

The orca speaking off the top of this episode – and every episode of Skaana – is Moby Doll.

“When you go to Africa, you wanna see the lions and the Serengeti, and when you come to British Columbia, you wanna see the killer whale.” – Murray Newman

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

The Killer Whale Who Changed the World audiobook  on Audible and Spotify

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

4:26 The Killer Whale That Changed the World

5:50 The hunting party.

6:35 A recreation of the actual CBC TV newscast the night Moby Doll was captured. “The pugnacious dangerous monster.”

8:30 Dr. Murray Newman on the accidental capture.

9:45 What people used to “know” about killer whales. “The fiercest most terrifying animal, lives in the sea, not on the land…”

14:18 Machine guns vs. orcas.

15:20 “The killer whale was considered too dangerous ever to be brought into captivity.” Dr. Murray Newman.

17:14 “Don’t shoot it! We’ll just wait and decide what to do.” Dr. Pat McGeer the “brains” of Operation Killer Whale

24:09 John Ford on learning to speak whale.

24:58  Dr. Charlotte Epstein on how Moby changed the way we see whales.

27:28 Creating a whale dictionary.

31:00 Orcas on a rescue mission to save Moby Doll?

32:09 The name – Moby Doll – changed everything.

34:00 Chris Angus on meeting Moby as a teenager and joining the team as an orca-sitter.

37:40 A CBC interview with sculptor and “whale-sitter” Sam Burich as he hangs out with Moby Doll.

40:28 Moby Doll is dead.

47:00 Richard Blagborne on the symposium on Saturna Island commemorating Moby Doll’s capture.

48:52  ”When you go to Africa, you wanna see the lions and the Serengeti, and when you come to British Columbia, you wanna see the killer whale.”

51:26 How Moby Doll changed the world.

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Mark Leiren-Young reads the chapter about Jaws vs. shark from his award-winning book, Sharks Forever. Years after the movie based on his book was one of the biggest hits in the world, Peter Benchley said that in a new version of Jaws, the shark wouldn’t be the monster. “The shark in an updated Jaws could not be the villain; it would have to be written as the victim, for, worldwide, sharks are much more the oppressed than the oppressors.”

Excerpt From

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

Sharks Forever audiobook  on Apple and Spotify

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

3:31 The start of the chapter on Jaws from Mark’s book Sharks Forever. Chapter 9 – Great White Lies.

4:45 A bounty for anyone who could prove they had been bitten by a shark.

5:29 Jersey Shore sharks. Or sea turtles? The original killer great white.

6:04 Shark myths created by Jaws. “The way that the shark behaves in the movie is not the way sharks behave.”

6:30 The terrible and inaccurate “rogue shark” theory.

6:51 The myths of Shark Week.

9:32 Humans against nature – trophy hunters.

11:45 “Years after the movie based on his book was one of the biggest hits in the world, Peter Benchley said that in a new version of Jaws, the shark wouldn’t be the monster. “The shark in an updated Jaws could not be the villain; it would have to be written as the victim, for, worldwide, sharks are much more the oppressed than the oppressors.””

12:57 Sharknados and other fictional shark stories.

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

David Shiffman (author of Why Sharks Matter) on how Jaws changed the world for sharks, humans and movies… how the fear of sharks led to so many species being threatened and endangered and why you should be suspicious of “shark experts.” “More people in a typical year are bitten by other people in the New York City subway system than are bitten by sharks in the whole world… More people die falling off cliffs trying to take a scenery selfie than are killed by sharks in a typical year.”

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

From David Shiffman’s online posts:

Yesterday I was interviewed for Mark Leiren-Young‘s podcast- I’ll share the whole episode when it’s out- and he asked me an interesting question. If there’s so much nonsense out there about sharks, how do I choose when to engage in mythbusting vs. when to let it go?

My answer:

1) Is the misunderstanding extremely common?

If one rando online is the first person I’ve ever heard say something wrong, it’s not common and maybe worth just letting go. If it’s widespread misunderstanding, it’s probably worth trying to address.

2) Is the misunderstanding harmful?

Lots of people believe incorrect things about sharks that don’t make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things, and those are probably not worth the effort to engage.

But some misunderstandings are harmful to conservation.

3) Is the person who is sharing the incorrect information persuadable?

Some people are well-intentioned but uninformed, they really want to help but don’t know how. Some of those people can be reached and taught to share accurate helpful information. That’s worth trying.

4) Is the person who is sharing the incorrect information influential?

If so, it’s worth trying to stop it from getting shared before it becomes a widespread piece of misunderstanding.

And 5) (Which I forgot to say to Mark): Sometimes the world is on fire and I just feel like picking a small fight where I know I’m right and I know I can win.

I do not love this about myself.

2:56 On the 50th anniversary of Jaws. “This summer is making a lot of people feel really old.”

4:25 “Part of the reason Jaws still holds up the way that it does is some mistakes they made during the filming…” The importance of showing the world from the shark’s point of view.

5:40 Sharknado and other shark movies that are unlikely to win Oscars.

6:04 Shark myths created by Jaws. “The way that the shark behaves in the movie is not the way sharks behave.”

7:05 The terrible and inaccurate “rogue shark” theory.

9:00 “It is astronomically unlikely that an individual person will be hurt by a shark… we are better off with healthy shark populations than we are without them.”

9:46 “More people in a typical year are bitten by other people in the New York City subway system than are bitten by sharks in the whole world… More people die falling off cliffs trying to take a scenery selfie than are killed by sharks in a typical year.”

11:05 Sharks vs. “influencers” and “influencers” vs. sharks.

12:48 “Shark expert” is the title Shark Week gives to somebody without any actual credentials.

15:13 Taking on the trolls and why it matters.

17:17 Bull%$@! about bull sharks.

18:07 How Shark Week launched Megalodon-mania and convinced conspiracy theories about an exintinct species. Also… getting naked with sharks… and Jackasses vs. sharks.

22:45 There are no Sharknadoes but a shark did fall from the sky.

23:28 Jaws author Peter Benchley tried to save the sharks. It’s only a friggin’ movie!

24:32 The generation of scientists inspired by Richard Dreyfuss in Jaws.

26:05 “If you have been in the water, in the ocean, there has been a shark not that far from you and it knew you were there. And you probably didn’t see it.”

28:05 “In more than a third of reported “shark attacks” in Australia the shark didn’t physically touch the human at all. It swam near them in a way the person thought was threatening.”

29:14 “We have lost half of all sharks – individual sharks – since the 1970s. These are animals that have survived five mass extinction events. These are animals that were swimming in the ocean before we had trees on land, before Saturn had rings. And we’ve lost half of them since my parents graduated from college. It’s really staggering. And Jaws did not cause it, but Jaws made it harder to stop.”

30:30 The Jaws Effect and how fiction influences fact.

37:40 “It’s not very many species of sharks that have ever killed a person.”

40:45 “So the most important thing you need to know about sharks is that they’re awesome and we’re learning new stuff about them all the time.”

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Sperm whale expert Shane Gero on his whale family in Dominica, the power of storytelling and the culture, codas and language of sperm whales. Also… why all science is political. “Science is inherently political… until the sperm whales are able to speak for themselves, someone has to be their advocate… conservation is inherently a human behavioural change.”

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

2:40 On his whale family and two decades of working with sperm whales.

4:30 On falling for whales.

6:30 What we know… Like… “They have the biggest brain to ever exist.” And studying sperm whales as individuals.

9:48 The power of storytelling. “No matter how much science we could do, no matter how innovative the research we were doing, the story-telling around what’s going on with the lives of these families was so powerful.”

11:54 Watching the birth of a sperm whale. “It was a very humbling day.”

14:43 “I think we do a great disservice when we centre humans.”

18:20 Redefining the meaning of “culture” and “language” to avoid including non-human animals.

20:33 Codas, clicks and communication.

26:47 What makes sperm whale brains unique and the theory of mind.

29:19 The sperm whale, Canopener, figuring out how Shane’s research works.

31:04 The story of spermaceti.

33:15 “Sperm whales powered human culture, long before we realized that sperm whales had culture themselves.”

34:00 The first time he saw a whale.

35:34 And the first time he saw a sperm whale. “Every human should have to go out and experience a 360-degree horizon… it’s very humbling.”

39:20 On the whales’ awareness of us. “We want to study what sperm whales do when sperm whales are being sperm whales… this is their realm.”

41:42 “These animals are living their lives in rich, complex lives that we don’t even understand yet.”

42:07  Why all science is political and fighting science denialism. “Being a scientist means taking sides.”

44:42 “Science is inherently political… until the sperm whales are able to speak for themselves, someone has to be their advocate… conservation is inherently a human behavioural change.”

48:08 On getting biodiversity to recognize cultural diversity.

51:32  On the importance of names. “When we give them a name we don’t do that lightly… we treat them as individual because they are.” And some names that they never imagined would stick… like Fruit Salad.

58:35 What whaling was like. “We killed something like three-quarters of the sperm whales that were out there.”

100:31 “We think the biblical Leviathan was probably describing a sperm whale.”

1:02:55 On what he has learned from sperm whales. “They, as individuals and families, have fundamentally changed the path of my life… Trying to understand what it meant to be a whale has helped me be a better person… They remind us about what is fundamentally important.”

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Beatrice Frank, new(ish) executive director of The Georgia Strait Alliance on the past, present and future of one of the most effective environmental organizations in British Columbia for their 35th anniversary. We talk about fighting threats with awareness – and lawyers – keeping the ocean clean, working with American eco-organizations in the age of Trump and the power of positivity. “We sue the government often… we just want them to be accountable for what they say they will do.”

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

2:30 Meet Beatrice Frank – the new executive director of the Georgia Strait Alliance.

5:24 On arriving in BC. “Wow. This place with orcas and salmon stewarded by the Coast Salish First Nation is amazing.”

8:48 The GSA turns 35 and the GSA’s journey. “It really has become a powerhouse for the protection of the Salish Sea.” Advocating for southern resident orcas and more. Past and future fights.

10:15 On working with First Nations on stewardship of the land and the water.

12:05 The current major programs…  biodiversity, marine planning, education and empowerment.

14:40 Orcas and emotions.

16:36 Legal fights for the Salish Sea – trying to save the orcas and stop Roberts Bank Terminal 2. “We sue the government often… we just want them to be accountable for what they say they will do.”

19:00 Adjusting to the age of Trump. “Our orcas don’t have a passport… we share those species.”

20:12 The importance of American partners in fighting for a thriving Salish Sea.

23:22 “We are rooted in the community… We are the Salish Sea.”

25:52 The biggest challenges in 2025.

27:42 On Clean Marine BC and training boaters on how to use the ocean and deal with whales and the water.

28:45 On the importance of positivity and connecting with nature. “Everything matters. Every single little choice matters.”

33:15 “We Don’t Want Your Pipelines” – written by Bob Bossin, performed by Mark Leiren-Young and Mike McCormick.

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Squil-le-he-le – Lummi Elder and matriarch – on her relationship, and her nation’s relationship, with the orca known as Lolita, Tokitae and Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut, the attempt to bring her home and sharing that story in the powerful new documentary Resident Orca. Resident Orca is now available on Crave in Canada and is still in festivals in the USA and around the world. “You can’t separate Canada and the US…  “Clean up our beaches. Stop using plastic. Talk to your electeds. And say it’s enough. Breach the dams. It’s enough, stop the pollution. It’s enough, talk to Canada and let’s join forces in saving that body of water that we all treasure and hold sacred. ”

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

4:43 Meet Skay-la-hay-la – Lummi (Lhaq’temish) elder and martiarch.

5:24 On the naming and renaming of Lolita/Tokitae to Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut

7:00 On being related to the orcas.  “Our relatives that live under the waves… We’re related through cosmology.”

9:10 On the “round-up” that almost ended the southern resident orcas.

11:40 “They separated these babies from their mothers and there were several that were killed in the process and the captors didn’t want to count them in their take. So they slit their bellies, filled them with gravel and sunk them.”

14:24 The orcas’ memories of Penn Cove and the orca matriarch, Ocean Sun steering clear. “She never led her people back there to hunt. Ever… Ocean Sun led her people into the cove… and the one day they did ceremony.”

14:30 “They have traditions that mirror the Lhaq’temish people. *

16:32 Orca potlatches. “We mirror each others culture and traditions… they sing, they polatch, they surround in times of sorrow and loss to support the family.”

17:16 The Lhaq’temish take on salmon hats. “What we believe they are doing is they had feasted. That’s their way to share. I’ve had enough. Have some.”

19:20 On getting involved with the documentary: “If you don’t tell the story of her and her sacrifices. How will people know what they’ve done to her and her family.”

22:53 Squil-le-he-le on her journey to bring Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut home and becoming involved with the documentary, Resident Orca.

24:09 On the Lummi Nation stepping in to bring Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut home. “It was all led by culture, spirit and tradition.”

26:26 “The first time I saw qwe ‘lhol mechen ”

26:58 “The first time I saw her (Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut) was heart-breaking. She had no spirit left.”

29:20 On drumming to Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut. “She felt the healing. She accepted and welcomed the healing.”

31:31 On singing with Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut. “Trainers were crying… “Every week I would call. How’s my relative? How’s she doing?”

33:07 On her connection to Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut. “We were one.”

34:20 On moments that aren’t in the documentary – like talking with Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut’s long-time companion – a whitesided dolphin.

38:03 On the Lummi talking with orcas/qw’e lh’ol mechen.

43:15 On how to help the orca in the Salish Sea. Breach the dams!

46:50 Why people need to see Resident Orca.

50:35 “You can’t separate Canada and the US…  “Clean up our beaches. Stop using plastic. Talk to your electeds. And say it’s enough. Breach the dramas. It’s enough, stop the pollution. It’s enough, talk to Canada and let’s join forces in saving that body of water that we all treasure and hold sacred. ”

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Skaana host Mark Leiren-Young breaks out his political pundit persona and talks about the Canadian election, how Trump upended the Canadian election and Canada and why that new baby orca needs a name NOW! A special audience Q&A episode with producer, Bug Lewis, asking the audience questions!

“Don’t vote for the guy who doesn’t believe there’s a problem with the climate.”

Made in Canada, eh 🍁

1:30 Mark’s background as a satirist and a political journalist and columnist.

3:00 Meet Skaana producer and audio engineer, Bug Lewis!

3:45 The scoop on the new J-pod baby – the Southern Resident orca – and why Suttles’ new baby needs a name NOW! So for now, Mark names the baby “Bug!”

10:30 Who should a Canadian environmental voters vote for in this election? “Don’t vote for the guy who doesn’t believe there’s a problem with the climate.”

12:00 Pierre Pollution boasts about being endorsed by Carbon Tax Campbell. The origin of Canadian carbon taxes.

16:00 Thoughts on our new – and hopefully future – Prime Minister, Mark Carney.

17:45 On not being a fan of the Green Party of Canada. “Here’s where I’m going to break a few hearts… I do not think the Green party does what it does very effectively… I do not see a there there.”

20:35 The history of Skaana and our documentary about the past, present and future of the Southern Resident Orcas.

23:40 Trump’s impact on Canada’s election, Canadian politics and how Canada has changed since Trump started talking about taking over our country.

26:10 “The flag is back, baby.”

34:25 Forgive Us, We’re Canadian – performed by Mark Leiren-Young and Mike McCormick from The Arrogant Worms.

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Arno Kopecky (author The Environmentalist’s Dilemma) on covering Tory leader Pierre Pollution Poilievre’s vs. the environment, Canadian eco-politics and the Greens vs. Greens.  When Pierre’s not Trumpy. And when he is. And what he’ll ask Pierre Poilievre – if he ever gets to ask him a question. “He turned the carbon tax into kryptonite.” Made in Canada 🍁

4:25 On being the only journalist embedded with Canada’s Conservative Campaign.

5:04 “It feels like a prolonged sort of Grateful Dead Festival festival tour meets the Freedom Convoy tour.”

7:05 Pierre’s greatest hits…

10:52 On making sense of conspiracy theories.

12:18 Why Pierre and the Tories won’t talk to reporters. “For the most part the Conservative entire machine is all about message control… it is very Trumpy.”

11:56 What Pierre Poiliviere doesn’t want to talk about.

15:06 Where Pierre’s not Trumpy. And where he is…

18:02 Why Pierre’s declared the carbon tax public enemy #1. “He turned the carbon tax into kryptonite.”

19:48 On Pierre not talking about climate policy, except to mock it.

22:53 “The NDP has always been in a bit of a tricky place around environmental policies.”

23:40 The carbon tax is a very conservative solution…

26:16 On Mark Carney: “He’s really quite literate on that file and he’s built his career trying to convince the world’s financial industries and bankers that climate change presents a massive existential threat to capitalism.”

28:30 On Carney: “I don’t think he’s the hero that we need but… it was his choice to go to rooms full of bankers in the halls of power in Europe and beyond. And tell them, you know, 10 years ago. “Listen, climate change is coming for us and we need to address it.” So I appreciate that.”

33:30 “The Green Party of Canada has become invisible.”

34:50 “It speaks volumes to me that a guy like Steven Guilbeault, who was arrested in 2001 [00:35:00] as Pierre Poliviere never tires of reminding us – for scaling the CN Tower and hanging a banner that said Bush and Canada are climate killers he was a Greenpeace activist, you know, literally as, as hardcore as it gets. Twenty years later when he runs for office, he doesn’t join the Green Party. He joins the Liberal party and two years after that, he becomes the Minister of Environment and Climate Change.”

36:25 “The Greens have slid into irrelevance… I think it’s going to be a grim election for the Greens.”

41:15 On voting this election.

41:50 What he’ll ask Pierre Poiliviere – if he ever gets to ask him a question.

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

Shaking hands with a Giant Pacific Octopus… Skaana host Mark Leiren-Young shares an excerpt from his new book Octopus Ocean: Geniuses of the Deep.

“Mark Leiren-Young’s Octopus Ocean gives young readers a wonderful sense of many aspects of the world of octopuses in a very clear, concise and interesting way. It makes the reader think, and it educates without preaching. This book is a door to the magnificent world of the octopus—a door that, if opened and explored, will bring much joy and connection.” – Craig Foster, star and producer of My Octopus Teacher, co-founder of the Sea Change Project.

Made in Canada 🍁

3:33 The introduction to Octopus Ocean: Geniuses of the Deep.

4:52 How Storm arrived at the Shaw Centre for the Salish Sea. And got her name.

5:42 Meeting a Giant Pacific Octopus.

6:57  Feeding time. Her speed shocks me.

7:20 “Watching an octopus is like watching a dream.”

8:42 “Storm’s deciding whether I’m friend, for or food.”

9:08 The first octopus I ever saw… at the Vancouver Aquarium!

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**

In 2018 Tahlequah captured the world’s attention when she carried her dead daughter’s body for seventeen days in what became known as the “tour of grief.” The human who shared that story with the world was Seattle Times reporter, Lynda Mapes. Tahlequah just lost another newborn daughter. She just completed a second tour of grief. And this time… the world wasn’t watching. Lynda Mapes and Skaana host Mark Leiren-Young talk about why the media and the world wasn’t tuned in this time, trolls who blame Tahlequah for her tragedies, the future and fate of Tahlequah and her family and the challenges facing everyone who cares about whales and the planet in 2025. “The way to think about these animals is as an ancient society.” – Lynda Mapes.

Made in Canada 🍁

4:10 Meet Lynda Mapes. “It’s a pretty catastrophic time.”

5:11 The difference between Tahlequah’s first and second tour of grief. “It’s not like the last time with six million people reading my stories.”

6:20 “She’s still the ultimate media star.”

8:27  Remembering the first tour of grief and the attempts to save Scarlet (J-50).

10:04 “These animals define the region.”

10:25 “Look at the world right now… it’s a pretty dire time in the US.”

11:15 “Some people blame her.” We interrupt this show note (Mark here) to say this makes me want to scream…

14:18 “This is a co-extinction.”

18:17 “What we have left we cannot lose.”

18:55 Is the biggest threat to the Southern Residents the Biggs transients?

20:00 “I’m afraid people are going to forget about the southern residents… they have a right to be here… the way to think about these animals is as an ancient society.”

23:44 Tour 2… “It isn’t what it was…”

25:06 People trolling Tahlequah…

27:15 “We’ve taken away her food, we’ve taken away her territory…”

28:05 The future and fate of NOAA. “It’s dire… it couldn’t be a more serious situation for the environment and people who care about it. It’s a scary time.”

30:02 “We’re going to have to make profound changes in order to bring back salmon in greater numbers…” Cleaning up and trashing dams.

34:11 “The power of nature, the resilience of nature is thrilling and real.”

Skaana on social media:

Mark on social media:

**Amazon links are affiliate links and support our podcast, thanks for clicking!**